Anything after ingots and up
#math-and-meta
native scroll
bleak coral
there's some stuff that's intermediate only but more complicated, you don't want those either
wind spade
some items are not used for any building nor research
bleak coral
@cedar mica why do you need to fill the storages in parallel rather than in sequence? it's the same total storage either way
fierce ruin
hey quick question, how much coal per min does the coal smelter require
bleak coral
the foundry? for steel?
fierce ruin
no like the coal power plant
bleak coral
15 per minute
fierce ruin
k thanks
frosty owl
Coal smelter LMAO
glacial hemlock
Burn coal with coal and boom, you got compacted coal. Stonk. (jk
swift ice
Does anyone have any new graphs for plastic and rubber factories? like this one but adjusted for packers/mk2 pipes and pumps?
bleak coral
well that chart still works with mk2 pipes/pumps cause it doesn't work out the logistics for you it just gives you the numbers
and you can just replace the refineries that are packaging/unpackaging with packagers, the recipe didn't change just the machine
swift ice
yea I am aware but there might be a new and modified version of some sort idk
bleak coral
also greeny's calculator is updated for the fluid update with the new max oil and using packagers: https://www.satisfactorytools.com/
swift ice
with oil stuff the bottleneck is not really the amount of oil... for generators its sulfur
for production its space 😄
craggy tinsel
^ wisdom (no irony/sarcasm)
fierce ruin
is 1+1 two?
ornate ridge
@swift ice what tool makes those graphs?
bleak coral
that's anthor's calculator, third one in the pins
bleak coral
oops read that wrong
for all the tools
frosty owl
Looking for comments/suggestions/critics about my pic in #screenshots
I hope someone will honor me with some ideas before finalizing that production area xD
reef ermine
Is there a design that puts a specific amount of items into multiple conveyor belts from one conveyor belt?
frosty owl
Is there a design that puts a specific amount of items into multiple conveyor belts from one conveyor belt?
@reef ermine Maybe any sort of "balancing" design can help you with that
There is a whole section on that in the wiki
reef ermine
I should be more specific
I have a line that's transporting 162 parts per minute, and I need it to split into 2 converyors that transport 90 parts/min and 72 parts/min
frosty owl
Make a smart splitter set to "x item" and "overflow".
The "x item" output goes to a normal splitter with a mk2 belt. From there you split the 120 in 60 and 30 and merge them, merge back any leftover with the original 160 and the "overflow" should have 72/min
Actually, you can merge leftovers WITH the overflo
You know how to split to 30, right?
@reef ermine
reef ermine
Yes
frosty owl
Yes
@reef ermine
Does my explanation makes sense, then? ^^
reef ermine
After a while my brain will have processed it, but yeah I think so
frosty owl
I can make a smiple drawing if needed, that's why I asked xD
bleak coral
you can also just use 1 splitter, it'll split 81/81 until the side that needs 72 fills, then that side will only take 72 and the rest will go to the other side
frosty owl
Oh, is @bleak coral already on it..?
bleak coral
nothing complicated needed
frosty owl
Oh right... manifold as usual... what else could I expect... hmpf 😫
(Trolling, no offense meant!)
frosty owl
@reef ermine good enough?
naive ingot
Elegant...
frosty owl
Not quite, IMO, but I hope it's enough to get the job done xD
reef ermine
Would that even need a smart splitter?
naive ingot
Yeah.
frosty owl
You would NOT need one if you had 180 coming in. In that case you could use a normal splitter with mk2 and mk1 outputs @reef ermine
naive ingot
Well, really, the Smart Splitter makes sure that any number of input above 120 gets 90 pulled off of it.
frosty owl
@naive ingot Would you mind checking out my pic in #screenshots? I'd love to hear something from you on that, if you like judging designs ^^
naive ingot
I mean, you have a decent amount of space between machines for belting, it's just a matter of doing it...
I'm probably not the best to ask about effecient belt setups, I'm more a super-compact style of builder (except for when ai go full spaghetti)
frosty owl
I'm probably not the best to ask about effecient belt setups, I'm more a super-compact style of builder (except for when ai go full spaghetti)
@naive ingot
Oh, that is TOTALLY the kind of builder I need advice from!
I generally try to fit as much stuff as possible in a building to skimp on walls and coveyors, but I really like the look of compact designs... No wasting, even in space xD
naive ingot
Here, I posted an example of how I build in #screenshots
frosty owl
I wanted to comment "buy win rar" but I'm lacking an "r"...
It's impressively compact!
naive ingot
I figured that, it's a bit... Compressed.
I actually used a bit of an exploit to cram them together harder than would normally be possible.
frosty owl
I actually used a bit of an exploit to cram them together harder than would normally be possible.
@naive ingot Yeah, I don't quite get how you managed that... o.O
naive ingot
When you're holding ctrl to place a Constructor or Smelter adjacent to another constructor, it doesn't check for machines more than 4m above its base.
frosty owl
Ahhh, I see where you're getting at... xD
naive ingot
I've tested similar situations with other machines, but it only seems to work with those two.
naive ingot
Yes, and that's apparently intentional.
frosty owl
Huh...? Never heard of that. Know why?
naive ingot
I wish they'd tweak some other building models to be a little more like the new Refineries, but I know they don't have resources for that.
cedar mica
They are slowly working through all the stuff, to make them more optimized and such
naive ingot
The exhaust being allowed to clip is a really nice aesthetic choice when placing the refineries inside a building, so your building can have the smoke stacks on the outside where they make sense.
I guess if there's a time to tweak models, it's before optimization.
frosty owl
The exhaust being allowed to clip is a really nice aesthetic choice when placing the refineries inside a building, so your building can have the smoke stacks on the outside where they make sense.
@naive ingot I guess so... Maybe I should change my preconceptions on clipping. Always have been damning evey saint in existance any time I made an 11 walls high building for refineries (9+2 for conveyors/pipes) because it felt like a waste of vertical space ahahah
naive ingot
Even before the new refinery, I've seen some great indoor fuel plant setups that use the down corner ramp foundations for the ceiling so the smokestacks of the fuel plants can clip through to the outside.
I'm a strong proponent of intentional aesthetic clipping.
(I might be one of the few proponents of it.)
frosty owl
Dear lord, so many of my designs would have to be reworked if I allowed you to convince me, @naive ingot ... it scares me :(
fierce ruin
if something requires 270 parts per min to work and i use 300 parts per min will it still run at full efficiency
naive ingot
Be careful then, I'm good at making convincing arguments...
But in this case I won't.
frosty owl
if something requires 270 parts per min to work and i use 300 parts per min will it still run at full efficiency
@fierce ruin Yes, but the machine producing those 300 may will get clogged up in time
So that one will stop producing at 100% eventually
frosty owl
would it be better then if i ran i only used 240 part per min
@fierce ruin You could still do what you said before if you just put the extra 300 in a sink or storage...
*extra 30
fierce ruin
true thanks!
frosty owl
Most welcome
dusky dust
0 ≤ x ≤ 156
wind spade
reasonable goal is anything you can finish in a reasonable amount of time
so ask yourself how much time do you want to spend 😛
fierce ruin
Honestly satisfactory is one of the only games I'm playing nowadays
Times not an issue just dunno if I should be going overboard
fierce ruin
Yeah fair enough honestly
Gotta say im pretty amazed how big a difference adding some water to caterium ingot production (pure ingots) makes
Went from 480/minute to 720/minute
Took a good hour or so to set it up but damn
rich heart
I feel like this is a fairly simple question, I just cant wrap my head around it. Would there be any way to feasibly split/merge one conveyor belt into four?
equally
signal nimbus
Split it into two, then split the two into two again. 3 splitters.
signal nimbus
Yw!
foggy jay
Hey this has probably been asked before, but has anyone calculated how to get the maximum points per minute from every node on the map?
Using alternates and stuff
bleak coral
The vast majority of the points is from max turbomotors, but that alone is such a massive project I'm not sure anyone has figured out the best thing to do with the rest of it
plush dove
156 turbo motors, 146 supercomputers and 750 HMF is the biggest project ive tried. halfway through my computer caught fire and jumped out the window.
never checked how many points that would be
glacial hemlock
impressive, and you left almost nothing for additional alclads for something else
muted crypt
greeny's calc says 156 turbomotors, 156 supercomputers and 156 heavy modular frames is possible...
as well as 0.01 iron ingot, 0.01 cable, and 0.03 plastic lol
oh and 0.02 aluminum ingot and 0.03 alumina solution
with all this production you can stop paying for extra heating for your living space, just use your computer!
bleak coral
oh we can go even further beyond: 94.5 nuclear fuel rods, 153.48 turbo motors, 30 alclad sheets, 128.8 super computers, and 904.59 HMFs
just pull back on the HMFs and you could produce like 30 of the rest of the building materials and still be able to build stuff
although I guess by that point what's there left to build?
muted crypt
not your sanity, that's for damn sure
bleak coral
yeah that's shattered and in the garbage by the end for sure
glacial hemlock
I am sure you can go over 1000 HMF
bleak coral
not while making the rest of that stuff
muted crypt
using maximize on greeny's calc makes 1922/min lol
bottlenecks are crude oil, sulfur and coal simultaneously
muted crypt
oh shit you right
bleak coral
it even dips a good bit into caterium to make more wire
ohp and limestone and most of the quartz to make more cement
fierce ruin
Whats the meta for computers
frosty pawn
threadripper
glacial hemlock
@fierce ruin silicone circuit board + caterium computer
foggy jay
Yeah I'd say caterium or crystal computer, they're both good
wispy cradle
at the wiki, I see the recycled plastic rubber loop starts with rubber, any reason for that?
thorny grail
156 turbo motors, 146 supercomputers and 750 HMF is the biggest project ive tried. halfway through my computer caught fire and jumped out the window.
never checked how many points that would be
@plush dove Jesus thats a lot of refineries for the caterium
peak basalt
@wispy cradle the recycled recipes just allow you to burn fuel to produce more plastic or rubber.
They are really good recipes to use if you have all the ones needed for the 300 oil to 900 plastic/rubber setup.
wispy cradle
I know that, but why start with rubber, is it more energy efficient or was it an arbitrary choice?
glacial hemlock
@wispy cradle plastic or rubber loop both start with rubber.
Because that maximizes the resin efficiency
ornate ridge
what causes power to fluctuate like this? Im pretty sure my goal and fuel generators are getting enough items, unsure
seems to be mostly flat, sometimes fluctuates
hot ginkgo
From the looks of the graphs. The pulses happen as your power draw increases. So you're definitely starving some gens.
hot ginkgo
How much is the fluctuations?
sand garnet
thats an issue with underfeeding
ornate ridge
but Im pretty sure I mathed it correctly
sand garnet
computer says no
ornate ridge
same input as output , rounding error?
sand garnet
same input as output? what do you mean
ornate ridge
sec I'll provide maths
hot ginkgo
Follow the system back and check all the pipes for anything being low. Machines not running properly. Anything like that.
hot ginkgo
Mk2 pipes?
ornate ridge
yeah
hot ginkgo
And 2 pipes from the heavy oil?
hot ginkgo
Heavy oil residue.
ornate ridge
yup
hot ginkgo
Youll need to go over the entire system. Its possible a pipe/belt got missed. Or a wire didn't land in the right spot.
ornate ridge
no Ive checked it defintely worked before no fluctuations, havent touched the factory since
no idea why its doing it now
sand garnet
could it be the manifold issue people are talking about ?
ornate ridge
whats the manifold issue?
hot ginkgo
Maxing out a pipe in a manifold doesn't always feed the very end machines.
Its an issue specific to liquids from what I've seen.
ornate ridge
that could be it yea
sand garnet
not even at max though, someone said 450 was needed and they had to supply 480 to compensate
ornate ridge
ooer
sand garnet
so its something wonky with the math in general if this issue is an actual thing
hot ginkgo
When I had the issues I needed to check over the entire system. Found a few machines not fully being fed.
ornate ridge
I'll look into adding a few more fuel pipes I guess seems weird
ornate ridge
so what I did was 480 fuel split in a manifold for 32 fuel generators (15m3 p/m no overclock)
and the last two gens are struggling now :/
it doesnt distribute equally yea
hot ginkgo
Are all the machines making the fuel actuslly getting fed 100%
ornate ridge
they are
hot ginkgo
Did you look?
ornate ridge
maybe I need to add more pumps? seemed ok though with mk2 pumps
Im using ECM mod to check the input/output stream, seems good to me
hot ginkgo
Alright. But axtuslly look at the machines interface.
sand garnet
check to see if theres no mk1 pipe somewhere
ornate ridge
there isnt mk1 pipes
I checked with the map editor
its defintely some funky rounding or something to do with manifold splitting
no worries though I'll just add a few more refineries making fuel I guess
sand garnet
I'd check ingame, map can be more difficult sometimes
ornate ridge
I think the map is best way to see, you can clearly see which pipes are being used when you zoom in, unless map editor is wrong
doesnt get clearer than this tbh, mk2 pipes
hot ginkgo
I will just say this. I've only had issues with a maxed out pipe manfold. Anything less and everything flowed well.
hot ginkgo
Dunno.
ornate ridge
I guess current work around is to slightly over produce the fuel to avoid manifold problem yea
math :shrugs:
hot ginkgo
It should would. Works for me right now.
I still think a mschine isn't producing right.
ornate ridge
if you want my save you can have it if you want to have a look
hot ginkgo
Just because ECM says so, does it check if the machine is running?
ornate ridge
Im 100% sure its piped correctly
yes because ECM shows you what you're inputting into the chain as well as outputting in real time
I reckon if I remove maybe two fuel gens it'll even out again
subtle marsh
@ornate ridge with the new update, you could work with flow limiters for each branch of your main pipeline, to ensure nothing more than 15m³/min passes to your machines.
subtle marsh
It could prevent the overflow issue of fuel stacking up in machines?
ornate ridge
Yea
sage stirrup
i have a setup that makes 145 stators per minute for that one nuclear thing , how many ai limiters per minute do i need to fully satisfy that ?
(i dont have any alternate recipies)
hot ginkgo
@ornate ridge I just verified with the mod author. ECM counts machines with defined recipes. Powered or not.
Was a good thing to know. As I wasn't sure either.
So it doesn't take into account actual production. Just theoretical.
frosty owl
Mumbles about balancers' superiority over manifolds and walks away sulking
i have a setup that makes 145 stators per minute for that one nuclear thing , how many ai limiters per minute do i need to fully satisfy that ?
@sage stirrup Divide by 3 and multiply by 2
frosty owl
It's simple math, if you want an explanation @sage stirrup
You're welcome, anyway ^^
sage stirrup
yeah i just wanted to make realy sure i got it right before spending 8 hours building something to build ai limiters
ornate ridge
@hot ginkgo I checked my machines and added some valves (didnt set limit), seems to work now confused lol
they were all working, so none were unpowered
backflow maybe? idk
frosty owl
yeah i just wanted to make realy sure i got it right before spending 8 hours building something to build ai limiters
@sage stirrup Good thinking 😂
they were all working, so none were unpowered
@ornate ridge Could their pipes and/or storages have filled up in the meanwhile?
Ok, I finished reading the conversation... @ornate ridge how about halting part of your non-fuel production to let you stock up on fuel in some buffers before connecting those buffers to the generators and then turning everything back on?
With that you should be able to fill up all the generator's storages and from there it should run smoothly
ornate ridge
ah so building it to input the same as it outputs without a buffer is bad?
might try that ok
hot ginkgo
Even with buffers. If you're not producing enough it won't matter. A basically just large pipe.
oblique hollow
Hey @ornate ridge, mind summarizing your issues again, pretty please?
frosty owl
ah so building it to input the same as it outputs without a buffer is bad?
@ornate ridge It's not BAD without buffers (I think) but if you FILL UP a few buffers, those should fill up your generators quickly at 600/min. Once full, they will ALL SURELY take 15/min each or less, and since the pipes should be full too any issue should disappear
Even with buffers. If you're not producing enough it won't matter. A basically just large pipe.
@hot ginkgo That's why I suggested stopping production elsewhere to relieve the generators
At least until the buffers fill up
hot ginkgo
The original issue is gens shutting down for under supply.
oblique hollow
Use an Injection Manifold?
frosty owl
The original issue is gens shutting down for under supply.
@hot ginkgo I thought the supply was enough and the issue was with manifold not distributing correctly, did I understand that wrong?
By "supply" I mean how much fuel is being PRODUCED
hot ginkgo
He didn't check the machines. Do I dont know. He relied on a mod to check it.
minor cradle
lol take modded game to modded server
i will say if you use the heavy oil residue and diluted packaged fuel a 600m3 pipe of oil will produce 1560m3 fuel and will feed 104 fuel gens
wispy cradle
@ornate ridge , when underclok generators, dont round. floor it
frosty owl
He didn't check the machines. Do I dont know. He relied on a mod to check it.
@hot ginkgo Ohhhh.... The eff. checker huh...?
Handy, but terrible of you get too reliant on it xD
ornate ridge
I did check the machines they were all on
I used tools site to calculate the exact amount also, unless the calc is wrong
also using heavy oil recipe not diluted as I dont have that recipe yet
if that wasnt clear
frosty owl
I used tools site to calculate the exact amount also, unless the calc is wrong
@ornate ridge There could be an issue in any of the machines, the calculator can't tell you that
ornate ridge
well it was working fine earlier, and now not, so still troubleshooting rn
frosty owl
E.g.: one refinery not having enough HOR would still show 100% output with the tools you use
well it was working fine earlier, and now not, so still troubleshooting rn
@ornate ridge First check if you actually DO produce enough fuel
Because that maximizes the resin efficiency
@glacial hemlock Am I the only idiot who didn't think of that and just used it all for fabric? 😅🤣
minor cradle
so your usin the HOR alternate then residual fuelalternate?
hot ginkgo
E.g.: one refinery not having enough HOR would still show 100% output with the tools you use
This is essentially what I'm getting at. Everything I've seen so far says it should be right.
That doesn't mean it is. Efficiency checker doesn't care if the machines are on, or even powered.
ornate ridge
480 p/m should be enough to sustain 32 gens but it isnt
hot ginkgo
So axtuslly look at every machines interface is the only way to make sure this isn't a pipe rounding error.
And if it is, you should report it on the QA site.
I dont think it is though.
ornate ridge
I think I have done a hacky fix for now and siphoned off my current fuel factory to unpackage spare fuel
might as well I guess
turbo fuel would be nice lol
minor cradle
600m3 into 20 HOR into 13.33 res fuel will make 520 fuel can run 34.66 fuel gens at full load
frosty owl
480 p/m should be enough to sustain 32 gens but it isnt
@ornate ridge I'm more inclined to believe, like Bando, that it IS enough, you're just having an issue either with transporting the fuel or with producing enough
minor cradle
recommend searching for diluted packaged fuel recipe as it effectively turns water into fuel
frosty owl
Making sure your production is OK is the first and most important step in understanding what is wrong
minor cradle
i know but why
oblique hollow
Should i link my Pipeline guides again 🤔
ornate ridge
valve added
frosty owl
Should i link my Pipeline guides again 🤔
@oblique hollow Is it not in the pins, already?
sand garnet
implying people read the pins lel
oblique hollow
Nope. Honestly, i should ping a mod and ask if they wanna pin em
sand garnet
<@&387163995947270144> any chance you can pin McGalleon's pipeline guide? it's a welcome addition
nimble ore
Link?
sand garnet
do your thing McGalleon, post 'em 😄
nimble ore
Actually @weary ravine can just include it in his pin
oblique hollow
weary ravine
rawwwr Who pings me double on mobile?
nimble ore
🤚
oblique hollow
Yeee 
nimble ore
Maybe remove the amp. subdomain
frosty owl
implying people read the pins lel
@sand garnet 🙄
I did... That's why I knew it wasn't there... Totally...
oblique hollow
Yeah, the mobile subdom is kinda crap
glacial hemlock
@oblique hollow great infographs! Do you want to update those on wiki too?
oblique hollow
Oh damn, yes
And i need to correct that one statement about "fluid buffers in series wont fill simultaneously"
Im definitely gonna enjoy editing the Valve page
cedar obsidian
That Moment you start using Cad software for schematics
I just realized how Great it would be to have a Splitter/Merger with two Inputs and two (maybe even programmable) Outputs
cedar obsidian
Dark theme
sand garnet
paint is best.
frosty owl
PhotoShop is bestest
sand garnet
paint > nothing for a long time > everything else
glacial hemlock
your arrangement of schematic is highly inefficient.
frosty owl
I mean, it's CAD after all.... 🙄
Yeah, having been forced to learn some left quite the bad impression on me about CAD 😅
glacial hemlock
when facing a situation where there are a lot of parallel lines for long distance, you can either rotate the graph, use break lines (A'-A') or group them into typical (denoted as TYP)
btw, are those water extractors? their shape looked interesting
cedar obsidian
in theory you are 100% right, but in reality i'm able to forget absolutely everything, so I connect stuff together just to make sure i can retrace it later
oblique hollow
hey @glacial hemlock remember that one comment on the wiki you pointed out to me? About how consecutive buffers fill at the same time but i said they dont?
Guess what: That case only applies if you were to put a pump between every consecutive buffer
frosty owl
Seems obvious enough...?
If you put pumps the last in row should fill up first, right @oblique hollow ?🤔 (The last being the farthes away from fluid source)
oblique hollow
not necessarily
if you have a pump at the very first and the very last buffer
then its up to the Liquid equations which one gets filled
ive just set up 4 consecutive ones
and the fluctuations here are astonishing
frosty owl
Wouldn't that just make the last fill up first and all the rest (with no pumps in between) to fill up together thanks to backflow?
Oh yeah, I bet there's plenty of fluctuation. But they OVERALL fill up together, right?
oblique hollow
i mean,technically, yes
the last one is the first one, if it has a pump
But only then!
any other case is up to "Fluctuating Communicating Vessels"-Stuff
It goes like this: The buffer with the least liquid volume inside will get preffered over buffers that are more filled. And once it shoots a bit above the other buffers, then another buffers with the lowest liquid volume gets filled.
And that bounces around until they all are full
glacial hemlock
@oblique hollow you don't need pumps in-between buffers. When filling them naturally, the first one get filled a bit faster but all of them got filled up about the same rate
frosty owl
That's actually pretty much how I thought it works xD
Exept I didn't expect these many fluctuations... I think in the end it the fluctuations' fault if we have issues with full 600 lines...
glacial hemlock
the implication is the head lift won't propagate as much, head lift still propagates, but it is proportional to the head lift stored in the last buffer.
oblique hollow
heres what im currently testing with
frosty owl
@oblique hollow you don't need pumps in-between buffers. When filling them naturally, the first one get filled a bit faster but all of them got filled up about the same rate
@glacial hemlock the pumps were just for the purpose of backflow in this example. Could use valves as well
oblique hollow
im not sure, remember, pumps cancel head lift, valves dont
so then the last buffer is at the mercy of the previous buffer's head lift
and that is at the mercy of the one before that.
and so on
glacial hemlock
true, since power is not free, minimizing the usage of pumps can be a great idea.
frosty owl
I don't quite get what you mean... Unless you DON'T power the last pump, putting a valve there should be the same in this instance, right?
cedar mica
A buffer has the headlift, equal to its height. So in theory, you can add 1 or 2m up for each buffer and keep the headlift going
glacial hemlock
@frosty owl a non-powered pump will reset the head lift to 0 at the point of discharge and reset to 22/55 meters when powered, regardless of the previous head lift.
oblique hollow
Wanna know the current volume inside them?
250, 130, 160, 170. The 250 one was at 80 before, and while it was filling to 250 the others werent filling at all
sometimes they even empty instead of simply not filling+
glacial hemlock
@oblique hollow nothing is weirder than the filling of multiple buffers. I guess there is some issue with the calculation sequence. Perhaps due to optimization, they don't get update as much
i am referring to the head lift calculation lags behind the current stored volume
frosty owl
You can fill them up nice if you do it in parallel rather then sequence. Calves work great for that as long as you provide the right amount
And yes, I did test this
oblique hollow
Fluctuation in Head lift and Vessel-to-vessel communication
cedar mica
Still, the current best way to skip pump power, is to send 1 pipe up with pumps, then mix it into all the other pipes. Even 1m3 from the pumped pipe, should give that pipe headlift
oblique hollow
i had the last buffer filling while a 150 and a 300 buffer next to each other did nothing
cedar mica
Unless they patched that
oblique hollow
Ive got to test that shared head lift exploit, good point
glacial hemlock
I got the exploit works for me. (And thus the article was written on wiki). But I am not the first to discover this, I watched Xterminator's totalxeclipse video and learnt that
frosty owl
I got lost at what CrazyOdd said... Would any of you be so kind to explain further for me too? 🙏
cedar mica
With valves, that exploit, just got a whole lot better
oblique hollow
Head Lift is shared through a whole system
frosty owl
Sure
oblique hollow
so if you connect rising pipelines at one point, then they all share the same head lift
so you only need one line with pumps going up and then connect that in parallel to the other lines
cedar mica
Think this explains it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5PqXlY3CYY&t
cedar mica
They added it in, so we could do the pump towers and then have free headlift up till that point. Like in real life
The exploit, is just us taking it 1 step futher
frosty owl
Meh a tad too cheesy for my likings ahahah
Sorry, the wording at first got me confused, thanks for explaining
Does a closed valve block headlift?
cedar mica
I perfer the pump tower version. Puts all the pumps in 1 place, instead of spread out
frosty owl
Does a closed valve block headlift?
frosty owl
Then we got a recipe for completely free and endless headlift, don't we...
oblique hollow
yep
frosty owl
As long as one puts a storage with a valve and lift it high enough...
Damn, so cheesy
oblique hollow
well, not completely free.
Cost is some rubber, some steel beams, copper sheets and modular frames
frosty owl
...............
weary ravine
Ah wait I see it
frosty owl
Quite so. To the point pumps are useless ahahah
oblique hollow
Actually the pumps are needed to prime the left buffers
frosty owl
Thought you found something new
@weary ravine New just to me, apparently...
frosty owl
I won't be using that, for sure... A single MK2 pump can do the job in 80% of my pipelines anyway
oblique hollow
Fun fact: Mk 2 pumps are 25% more efficient than Mk 1 pumps
frosty owl
Make it 50 as they also look better xD
glacial hemlock
@oblique hollow wow you discovered the 3rd and ultimate head lift exploit
oblique hollow
Infinite POWAAAAAAAH
guess ill make a diagram of that and add that to the wiki
for some reason visual editing doesnt work for me, i can only Edit Source
muted crypt
What's this about a headlift exploit? 👀
oblique hollow
you know the one where you connect multiple pipes in parallel and then need only pipeline with enough head lift? @muted crypt
oblique hollow
its the same exploit, but you can do it with a buffer set up high and a valve set to 0 m³/min
that way you dont even need any pumps
bleak coral
so you like preload the buffer, and then connect it to the other pipes with a valve at 0 so it never empties, but the rest of the pipes get the headlift?
bleak coral
that was a question lol, I only half followed them figuring it, wanted to make sure I got it right
muted crypt
I mean after reading what they said and then seeing your clarification they seemed to both line up
snow pulsar
What's the math behind hypertube cannons? I want to get a cannon going to launch myself from one end to the other, but I want to know how many sections I need for the distance I'm at.
glacial hemlock
Build 15, save, yeet yourself until die, reload then add / remove 1 by 1 accordingly
snow pulsar
I asked for the math specifically so I don't have to do that.
hot ginkgo
@snow pulsar
https://satisfactory.gamepedia.com/Hyper_Tube
glacial hemlock
As far as i know currently no one has come out with a formula (yes it can be measured, just nobody has done it)
peak basalt
I dont really think there is a formula tbh. Your speed going into the launcher will vary unless you make a belt entrance. Even then its not 100% the same, just really close.
bleak coral
it's a program so there's some math, some formula that uses the starting speed as a variable
never seen anyone try to figure it out though
peak basalt
True, but I'm saying there's currently no way to tell how fast your walking/running AFAIK, and without that, theres no formula for your cannon.
bleak coral
fair enough
peak basalt
If you have a belt entrance, you can get it closer, but rarely exact
iron latch
Theoretically you could measure it out on a platform, but I'm 90% sure that it's not really intended play, so the math is going to be messy as hell
oblique hollow
I mean technically Hypertubes are also pipes so i coooould calculate this
frosty owl
I mean technically Hypertubes are also pipes so i coooould calculate this
@oblique hollow Gonna need a looooot of pioneers to calculate flow rate properly....
oblique hollow
Flow Rate? I was talking about hypertubes
And their acceleration
Specifically for Hypertube Cannons
Also @frosty owl i already have a really solid formula for calculating flow in junctions with or without valves
frosty owl
Flow Rate? I was talking about hypertubes
@oblique hollow Yeah I know. The irony was wasted this time ^^
oblique hollow
Im sure i can find an approximate formula using some simple launch distance test and the parabolic trajectory equation
oblique hollow
Great news: I think that by the end of the day, i may have an equation for hypertube cannons
peak basalt
I really don't think you can accurately have an equation. The speed at which you enter the hypertube is too difficult to repeat and will affect the distance you travel.
hot ginkgo
Well if you give a baseline of just walking. Then it's easy to reproduce.
peak basalt
Thats only part of the equation then
hot ginkgo
Since most things are done in grids. You can easily say so many entrances of x length will toss you so many meters when entered at a walk.
Which I'm assuming is what McGalleon is going.
oblique hollow
lol actually the entry speed isnt affecting it at all
peak basalt
It does tho...thats what makes cannons possible.
hot ginkgo
Maybe the difference between walking and running doesn't.
oblique hollow
also yes Bando, thats what im doing. enter x amount of hypertube entry points and then measure horizontal launch distance
hot ginkgo
But using a bounce pad will.
oblique hollow
By Entry speed i mean whether you run into it or walk into it
hot ginkgo
Yeah. That difference is so small.
oblique hollow
currently, it looks like some very specific exponential function
peak basalt
Its going to matter more and more with each additional entrance
oblique hollow
well, possibly. since the equation for parabolic trajectory includes Velocity^2
in the end, the thing that i will possibly get is an equation that estimates distance and then ill simply see how much your own entry speed affects that
frosty owl
in the end, the thing that i will possibly get is an equation that estimates distance and then ill simply see how much your own entry speed affects that
@oblique hollow Seems precise enough
Why limiting the entry speed to walk/run, though? Isn't it worth adding it in as a variable? Like when you use a jetpack/jumpad/HT-cannon to lunch yourself into another cannon
oblique hollow
ill see into that, but i cant guarantee for anything since then i would need to require the player to know their exact velocity
which is a ridiculous requirement
lyric tangle
soo i neeed to transport oil through 3000 meters anyone knows how to send it to the sky efficiently
i am thinking of setting up a temporary factory for oil all the way out there and then i will unlock mk2 pipes and pumps to use those to build the transport
hot ginkgo
Yikes. I would process the oil on site and just move the solids.
lyric tangle
ok
i am using the oil in the beach so i was thinking of moving to the desert in that place
oblique hollow
thats always the better choice. dont transport it out ridiculously far, process it immediately or package it for transportation
lyric tangle
ok
oblique hollow
But as ive read, you dont have packaging unlocked right now,
so try to process it and then transport the product
lyric tangle
**
thats always the better choice. dont transport it out ridiculously far, process it immediately or package it for transportation
@oblique hollow should have told me that before i transported quartz 2000m**
oblique hollow
Quartz isnt a liquid. thats ok to transport on belts or trains
pipes are NOT fit for long distance transport, however
lyric tangle
i think i need to open a multiplayer i am quite stuck with one single factory section that is super small
so maybe i will open a group because i am really clueless onwhat to do
oblique hollow
are you on Early Access or Experimental?
oblique hollow
Yea, dont do multiplayer on EX right now
lyric tangle
i did a 2.5km mk3 one with a hyper tube next to it
oblique hollow
It is very unstable and prone to crashes rn
lyric tangle
so should i go back?
formal rock
Oh my 2.5 km 😄
oblique hollow
EX in singleplayer is fine, but not multiplayer
lyric tangle
so i think i will go back to be able to play multiplayer
bleak coral
You're not getting anything from being on experimental right now anyway
formal rock
Is it better to max out all the available research in the MAM before moving to tier 5-6 and higher?
bleak coral
It's a performance improvement for multiplayer, but it breaks multiplayer
oblique hollow
Is it better to max out all the available research in the MAM before moving to tier 5-6 and higher?
@formal rock it doesnt hurt to do a lot of caterium research or maybe sulfur.
night jay
@formal rock I did literally almost all the research possible that didnt require oil before I hit tier 5. It was kind of a drag but it was worth it I think
formal rock
I see I see, today I bought two huge lines back to my bas (catherium and sulphur) will do some of their research soon
lyric tangle
remember how i said absolute mess?
formal rock
Yeah I think that makes sense, its not good to rush I feel
oblique hollow
could be worse lol
cedar mica
I would say at least half is T1-2, then 1/4 T3-4 and 1/4 T5-6. For MAM. Only 1 require T7 (Based on memory)
night jay
Honestly, it gets better. The earlier tiers are definitely trickier cause you are kind of limited
frosty owl
ill see into that, but i cant guarantee for anything since then i would need to require the player to know their exact velocity
@oblique hollow Maybe just a few "steps" like walk/run/jumpad/falling from x walls? 🤔
molten lintel
All the numbers you calculated for previous resources thinking it was all you were going to need, they go to hell
oblique hollow
i will allow run / walk but i cant account for everything. Most people enter a hypertube cannon by walking/running into it anyway
formal rock
To manage the efficiencies is a very dangerous dance moving forward I can imagine
night jay
@molten lintel Actually that's kind of a simple problem. There are so many nodes, if you plan out that like the impure and normal nodes in a certain location are for early game, you can save the bundles of pure and normal nodes for late game stuff
frosty owl
Honestly, it gets better. The earlier tiers are definitely trickier cause you are kind of limited
@night jay I disagree with that xD Maybe 'cause I tended to rush tech, but I was always quite intimidated by the new machines and recipes combinations
molten lintel
Yeah but you know that once you played the higher tiers
night jay
alright true, going into higher tiers for the first ttime is scary
molten lintel
When you are fresh in the game you just use whatever you have nearby 🤣
formal rock
^_^
The biggest step was reaching coal power, no more hunting animal and leaves for biomass
frosty owl
I feel for all the people who get to T7 without even knowing how to mass-dismantle. Since at that point you usually have dismantled at LEAST a couple factories xD
The biggest step was reaching coal power, no more hunting animal and leaves for biomass
@formal rock That's when you finally feel like you can just sit back and relax!
night jay
reaching coal power is a big step. It's your first version of automated power, which is really helpful
formal rock
Yesss 🙂
night jay
I think I may try and hold onto coal power with this new playthrough, and just sort of straggle until I create a giganti turbofuel factory
cedar mica
Biomass is not that hard. Just double the amount of burners. Lower % power use, means biomass last longer and so longer between refuels
formal rock
Wait you mean you will skip coal power entirely?!
night jay
No
I am currently on coal power. I've got like 32 generators set up rn
I'm going to skip regular fuel and just create a gigantic turbofuel power plant
if I can last that long
cedar mica
You can produce everything on the 3.6GW of Geothermal power. Meaning your personal building materials, dont need a big ass factory.
night jay
Ive just finished 3 mini-temp-factories for the space elevatorm, so once I hit tier 5-6 I will rush plastics and rubber, then turbofuel
@cedar mica geothermal is very late game
cedar mica
I know, but even if its 3.6GW of Coal power, the point still stands
formal rock
Oh scout are you on tier 4? I am on tier 4 atm waiting to max it before pushing forward
night jay
@formal rock I had a game where I hit ttier 7, but then I restarted right as 3.5 was released
I have been a bit busy so I havent got as much hours as I wouldve liked recently, but yeah im tier 4 rn
formal rock
Woah I see, did you choose a different starting location in your recent playthrough?
night jay
yeah. my tier 7 playthrough was started in northern forest, but I decided to start this new playthrough in grass fields, since I never actually started a game there before lmao
formal rock
Aha nice nice grassy fields is pretty dank, but tbh I havent even visited the other 3 zones yet
night jay
Starting area didnt really matter to me because im building a central storage at like the middle of the map.
cedar mica
Downside to Grassland, is long distance to decent amount of water, for coal plant
night jay
@cedar mica true. I just like to head over to the 4 normal coal nodes near the crater lake, set up 32 generators inside of it
formal rock
Central storage seems like a great idea
night jay
@formal rock it is
formal rock
Wait where is the legendary crater lake?! in the middle of map?
fierce ruin
Is there a map that has every resource node?
fierce ruin
Thx
frosty owl
Wait where is the legendary crater lake?! in the middle of map?
@formal rock Oh hey, that's right where I got my turbomotors factory(WIP)! :D
Very nice and tranquil once you clear out the fauna
formal rock
Wow looking at that spot on the map lake is HUGE I'm currently working by cramming 5 water pumps in a pond hahaha
oblique hollow
Oil Lake > Normal Lakes
CSS give me me my release valve i want to make a HOR lake
frosty owl
Which one are the coal and oil lake?
sand garnet
Im assuming oil lake is the blue crater?
coal lake is the one north of the grass fields spawn
oblique hollow
to me oil lake is the one northeast of grass hill spawn
frosty owl
The one with so many spitters and all blue flora?
oblique hollow
inb4 Nuclear Spider Cave is the best cave
oblique hollow
Screw Doggos, im gonna chill with the face-eater boys
sand garnet
i dont care much for doggos, but free loot is free loot lol
frosty owl
I was just about to finish editing a screenshot... But yeah, thanks for it Tom xD
oblique hollow
Free Loot, free HEADLIFT
frosty owl
Meh, gotta say I quite dislike the blue crater for some reason...
sand garnet
MSpaint ftw lol
oblique hollow
Ive come to call it my second home, its where i test all my Pipe Stuff
sand garnet
im not a fan of it either personally
oblique hollow
Just cover it up with Walls and Floors then you dont have to look at it
frosty owl
MSpaint ftw lol
@sand garnet I prefer the integrated capture system in Windows, a bit more flexible ^^
frosty owl
Just cover it up with Walls and Floors then you dont have to look at it
@oblique hollow That's... well... I like to have some good greenery to look at while building or from windows xD
I think the terrain's texture itself is not really to my liking. Makes for an atmosphere I find gloomy somehow
molten lintel
win shift S
@sand garnet wait how didn't I know about that 🤣 that's so convenient
frosty owl
I've been using it for years and yet found our about it only now...
I'm too lazy to memorize the shortcuts xD
oblique hollow
i just always hit the windows key and search for the tool lol
sand garnet
you're welcome lol
muted crypt
also no, doggo loot cave = best cave
@sand garnet facts
lyric tangle
anyone knows hw to use the headlift properly like the thing where you use no pumps
oblique hollow
you mean the head lift exploit where multiple pipelines are able to go up with nearly no pumps?
lyric tangle
yeah
oblique hollow
Depends. With what i found yesterday, therer are 3 variations to do it
lyric tangle
ok
oblique hollow
https://satisfactory.gamepedia.com/Head_lift
Check the lower section of this page
if you want the 3rd variation (which i think at least i sort of discovered) then i could tell you how to do that
lyric tangle
ok thank you
frosty owl
What are the "tick types" mentioned in the last patch?
oblique hollow
tick rates? bascially the frequency at which machines do calculations, i think
frosty owl
Ty
hot ginkgo
@frosty owl check the EXP channel. Ben spent some time with us. Answered some random questions and talked about the tick rate.
fresh elm
short version though - if you have a massive factory, today's patch helped your performance a ton.
it doubled mine, but my world is a bit bigger than most
frosty owl
@frosty owl check the EXP channel. Ben spent some time with us. Answered some random questions and talked about the tick rate.
@hot ginkgo Ohh, too bad I missed that. Thanks, I'll check it out
it doubled mine, but my world is a bit bigger than most
@fresh elm How many machines, for reference
short version though - if you have a massive factory, today's patch helped your performance a ton.
@fresh elm Does that affect RAM usage too? 🤔
muted crypt
@frosty owl: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/572784151439081472/777984466303975424/unknown.png
this is from what he posted in #satisfactory-experimental
frosty owl
Guess I should check that out before making anymore questions 😅
muted crypt
I'm curious to know what's in the one crate... @fresh elm
fresh elm
oh, concrete
it's just in the water where I deleted some foundations
ram usage is the same
but I have 64g of ram so I don't care about that
sorry I guess discord isn't sending me notifications for some reason
my fps in most places is double what it was the other day
the game has become playable for me again, basically
if you're curious what my save is like, I put up a dropbox link
it's about 25 megs
there are 3 things to the size most people would call a "megabase" in it, plus the 473 nuclear reactors
which make a really rather pleasant canal system
there are some broken things in here from where I didn't actually turn things back on correctly
but most of it can be fixed with a couple of emptying of bins
(fluid update broke my garbo aluminum setup)
oblique hollow
This one is for all you Hypertube Cannon freaks. Its not perfect, but a good approximation
oblique isle
I'm curious to see how you came up with that.
oblique isle
Im talking about the math and constants
oblique hollow
and graphed the distance over the number of entrances
sand garnet
input velocity matters too though right?
oblique hollow
then simply applied a trend line
sand garnet
because if I jam myself into a hypertube with a belt slide boost, I go much further
oblique isle
It makes sense that it exponentially increases with every Entrance.
oblique hollow
yes it does, but thats way too extraordinary to calculate
i used a jump pad and and almost got deleted
sand garnet
all im hearing is 'I, McGalleon, suck at math and am lazy' 😛
I need numbers, good sir, numbers!
oblique hollow
Listen, if you wanna be the Hypertube Cannon math guru, go ahead
sand garnet
not that I'll ever use them, but gimme numbers lol
oblique isle
Theres also a lot of factors to take in. Like how long were the entrance and exits placed, how long were the tubes inbetween, how did you measure, etc.
oblique hollow
10 entrances + 1 jump pad at 8 m from the 1st entrance = Stratosphere
oblique isle
20 entrances + 1 jump pad at 8 m from the 1st entrance = Heaven
oblique hollow
btw, this is just for a 45° launch angle
here, funny graph
the start velocity is the estimated launch velocity of the hypertube cannon
sand garnet
actual math in this channel? it's been a while
oblique hollow
i got a second formula
using sin and the planets gravity constant and velocity and angle
here
for the starting velocity, i can give an approximation formula that gives you the velocity you get from multiple hypertubes
bleak coral
did you mix , and . as decimal separators, or is that 16 bigger than I think?
bleak coral
ok, was confusing me haha
bleak coral
game numbers get weird if you think too hard about them, cause that's more than earth gravity but even unassisted we can jump higher and fall slower
oblique hollow
Yep, but it still checks out for ballistic trajectories
bleak coral
the fall slower is what gets me, I can handwave jump higher as "sci-fi genetic augmentation"
oblique hollow
If you want you can try and build a hypertube cannon yourself and then see if you really get launched that far
austere pawn
whats 1+1
weak pulsar
9
austere pawn
ill give you a 0
iron latch
@oblique hollow Dude, thanks for the formula!
glacial hemlock
@oblique hollow you deserve a Nobel prize with the equation. Would you like to add your fomula into the wiki?
muted crypt
this is what happens when you have a lot of time to spare. props to you, @oblique hollow 👏
abstract copper
I thought launching from a jump pad into a hypertube was a bug/exploit that got fixed?
oblique hollow
@glacial hemlock guess ill add that onto the hypertube section, but with a disclaimer that its not 100% accurate, but very close.
glacial hemlock
You can make that 100% by setting yourself entry with belt mk4
Not sure if running speed is equal to mk4 or mk5
oblique hollow
the second formula would be much better, though for that you need the second equation to calculate the velocity the entrances speed you up to
glacial hemlock
Running is 48km/h with blade runners on
@oblique hollow satisfactory has a terminal velocity of 40m/s downward so simple parabolic equation won't work
oblique hollow
v =12,39 * e^(0,184*x) to get the velocity, then input that in v² * sin (2a) / 11,85
it does
Terminal velocity is downwards, not horizontal
glacial hemlock
I mean, the horizontal component is fine, but the vertical component when descending will be maxed at 40
oblique hollow
if it also applied to horizontal then you would never be able to go faster than 40 m/s
I specifically tested that equation for accuracy
glacial hemlock
Well, if the formula is compared against the measured data then it cannot be differ too much. As long as it works
oblique hollow
you can go ahead and test it yourself if you wish 😉
glacial hemlock
Actually there is a way to cheating: as you can only build an integer numbers of entrances, a simple tabulated data is good enough.
oblique hollow
well, not really. Projectile motion is also affected by launch angle and starting height
if you were to assume constant 45° angle (the angle for maximum range) and level terrain, then it should work
which is kinda the assumption i made for the first exponential equation
glacial hemlock
Wow.
So an equation that works for a variable of circumstances can be much more useful
oblique hollow
so the first equation is perfect for maximum horizontal distance, but not vertical
though usually people want to go far, not high up
For the normal cases, the left equation is enough. For specific cases, i recommend the right one
sand garnet
high up is pretty pointless anyway because the vertical distance you can go is 2200m from very bottom to very top
oblique hollow
if you want to go high up, just use a jump pad before the cannon and you get yeeted
glacial hemlock
X = some equation. Y= another equation
oblique hollow
Z = Both equations
im joking
for verticality, you would use ( v² * sin²(a))/ 23,7
glacial hemlock
@oblique hollow btw, the gravity value in the 'world' page is measured by me
glacial hemlock
Must be something right and something left it seems.
frosty owl
@sand garnet I just tested this, works fine from A to B or 1 to 2 🤷♂️
(Apologies for the bad calligraphy, but I didn't take any lesson of that in school...)
And yes, the middle part is a single piece of rail
Must be something right and something left it seems.
@glacial hemlock Well, if your value is right, I believe there is none left...
900 IQ jokes, only in math-and-meta
@sand garnet I just tested this, works fine from A to B or 1 to 2 🤷♂️
Should I test for A to 2 and B to 1 too?
sand garnet
yeah go for it, test all options
night jay
Hey, if someone could give me conformation that is the best way to turn 300 crude oil per minute into as much turbofuel as possible, thanks
https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=agQNoacjAlLUu58cnrtu
I've been trying to combine a ton of different recipes and this is the best result I've created
sullen cloud
It is
frosty owl
I've been trying to combine a ton of different recipes and this is the best result I've created
@night jay Seems good to me. Did you use the tool to find the right combination?
hoary geode
Ok, so maybe I don't understand the way by which this works, but if someone can explain the math/mechanics of it, I'd appreciate it.
I have 2 water extractors @ 100% clockspeed (120m³/min water) flowing into flat pipe running into a pump that pushes the water up onto a flat platform where it then gets distributed into 6 coal generators running @ 87% clockspeed (40m³/min water). 40 * 6 is 240, which matches the combined output of my two water extractors.
My question is why does it seem that I have more water to work with? The pumps are turning on and off and because of the amount of water in the pipes not being consumed at an equal rate?
dusky dust
Remember that power generators only use resources proportional to the amount of energy they're supplying
frosty owl
@hoary geode Simple engough reason: power generation reduces to match power draw ^^
dusky dust
So they're only going to use that full 40/min of water if they're at 100%
frosty owl
Just like apoc said
hoary geode
Oh, so they're not full on using 40m³/min of water...because they don't need to? That's neat.
night jay
@frosty owl Yeh I used the tool. I just disabled and enabled a ton of different recipes to see the best way to use 300 crude oil, and what the maximum production of turbofuel can be
dusky dust
The same also applies to stuff like nuclear waste when you get to nuke plants, btw, so your waste generation is nearly always gonna be slower than the listed max rate
frosty owl
Oh, so they're not full on using 40m³/min of water...because they don't need to? That's neat.
@hoary geode With this logic, it doesn't matter how many biomass burners you make (as long as they are enough), they will complexively all consume the same amount of fuel ^^
E.g.: 10 biogenerators consume 10/min producing 200W, 20 would consume the same if the powerdraw is still 200W (numbers are purely for example)
hoary geode
So it's rather negligent to try and plan for a target fuel consumption rate unless your power consumption is always 100%.
It's better to plan for capacity and let the resources overflow? If that makes sense.
frosty owl
Quite
hoary geode
Very good, thank you.
frosty owl
Most welcome :)
paper yacht
@frosty owl interesting way of having two back-to-backs sharing the same rail just close your eyes when they phase through each other😂
frosty owl
@frosty owl interesting way of having two back-to-backs sharing the same rail just close your eyes when they phase through each other😂
@paper yacht
I feel like I'm missing some context 😅
What?
paper yacht
I was referring to your discussion with Tom up above with the back-to-back trains on one and two and a and b or did I read something wrong and you were discussing something else
Only train setup I have used since they came out is back and forth on the same line I've been too nervous to Mix any of the lines
frosty owl
Oh... It was about wether that sort of intersections work with only 1 rail piece in between or not. If my next test works, maybe I can drop a mic on tom's head xD
Only train setup I have used since they came out is back and forth on the same line I've been too nervous to Mix any of the lines
@paper yacht Wha... Why no trains? All conveyors all around?!
paper yacht
@frosty owl you don't get me I do use trains I just don't mix or cross any of my back-to-backs that are spread all over the map
@frosty owl prior to update to I was a belter i belted everything everywhere and brought my game down to a crashing halt at 1 frame per second, and too many short pieces of belt causing the game to process into Infinity
So if that works and I can share lines that will definitely help I just don't want cars or product to say switch between cars as they're phasing through each other
frosty owl
So if that works and I can share lines that will definitely help I just don't want cars or product to say switch between cars as they're phasing through each other
@paper yacht Yeah, I agree with that. Generally I try not to make them clip too (unless I'm making a rough job, ofc). That pic was purely for the example's purposes ^^
paper yacht
@frosty owl I haven't tried it since the last update the big update the summer but there used to be this bug that if the trains crossed each other that product would get mixed into each train and then you'd have a cluster Frak of a mess
frosty owl
@frosty owl I haven't tried it since the last update the big update the summer but there used to be this bug that if the trains crossed each other that product would get mixed into each train and then you'd have a cluster Frak of a mess
@paper yacht That got fixed, the cars no longer "leave" the locomotive ;)
paper yacht
And another thing that is always just made my head hurt is when you're using a train for the first time whether it's on a loop or a back-to-back just because you put the product in the back car doesn't mean it's going to be in the back car on the other end of the network I never seem to be ever to remember that
night jay
I think a neat idea for nuclear waste could be that yeah you could send it into an Awesome! grinder, but it'll give you negative points
Like it will take you down negative points until you reach 0 out of whatever your next ticket will cost. It's a win/loss situation to get rid of nuclear waste
sand garnet
thats super easy
just dont build a sink until you have a lot of waste
store it until then
night jay
I'm beginning to realize how easily you could abuse this system, nvm lmao
hot ginkgo
And once you get to a certain point, coupons are useless gameplay wise.
So ill happily take that negative once I have my useful stuff from the store.
ornate ridge
how many foundations long can a pipe be horizontally before you encounter the sloshing mechanic? and how to mitigate it?
frosty owl
Sloshing mechanic? I must've missed one of @oblique hollow 's talks about it... Hopefully he will fill us in or someone will in his stead ^^
ornate ridge
ye I heard pipe fluids get a bit wonky if you pipe too far horizontally like the fluid cant get there or something
unsure though, just heard about it
frosty owl
As far as I know there is no issue with the fluid not reaching...
But you could have flow issues on LONG pipes until they all fill up properly
ornate ridge
can valves block the headlift of pumps?
frosty owl
No
ornate ridge
ah ok
oblique hollow
Sloshing..... No, not really.
Oscillating flow (aka "sloshing") mostly occurs in systems with buffers
And as far as distance is concerned: if your pipeline is very long and has very little flow rate and it is not flat on the ground, you are free to place a valve or pump along the line
frosty owl
To avoid oscillating flow aka sloshing?
oblique hollow
yea
usually it doesnt happen, only if you
a) have a very slow flow (sub 50 or so)
b) have sloped pipe segments
c)have a buffer with no valve or pump on its input / output
@frosty owl @ornate ridge
frosty owl
I'm a bit confused by the C
Do you mean that the buffer tends to "slosh" its content into the connected pipes?
oblique hollow
yep, buffers are terribly sloshy
frosty owl
I always put a pump before the storage, so I never noticed (or even the extractor acted as pump)
oblique hollow
frosty owl
So it becomes apparent only when headlift is really low
Is the picture pinned, by the way?
I don't know how to link it to people when they ask :/
frosty owl
Oh great!
oblique hollow
recently managed to get a moderator to add it
well, me and a few others
You can see this when you build a setup like this:
Have an extractor at 150 or so, connect it to a pump and then to a buffer, then check the flow rate and head lift on the pump
you will see that it jumps up and down quite a bit
Even if you build a Flow Rate Equalizer before it, it still sloshes around
thats why i always encourage to build a valve or a pump before and/or after a buffer
before to avoid backflow / oscillation towards the producing machine and after to avoid it from flowing back into the buffer
frosty owl
I guess the biggest reason I didn't have much issues (before MK2) is that I just always had enough pumps and pioe/length to avoid sloshing 🤔
Lucky me...
pie length, sure...
oblique hollow
Long Pipes usually dont have that issue since you most likely want those at like 300 m³/min
frosty owl
Exactly what I do
oblique hollow
and pipes at their limit cannot slosh
it usually only happens with slow flow rates, and it gets worse the slower it is
300? nothing
200? eh, probably nothing either
100? still ok, might slightly oscillate
< 100? most likely gonna get messy
frosty owl
There's nearly the opposite issue with 600, though 🤣
Gotta say it's been a while since I did pipes, so I don't know if those issues are still there
oblique hollow
i should really do more stuff with mk 2 pipes, though usually they are also well behaved. at least for me
Then again, i always follow my own Building Guidelines
frosty owl
Ahahah, fair enough!
oblique hollow
Not to mention that i like to slap one of my own circuits in there from time to time, which have been designed specifically to deal with some of these issues
The Flow Rate Equalizer is honestly the best one for these situations, if you combine it with a pump at the output
In case you are unsure what a F.R.E is
i think ill nickname them FREqualizers xd
sand garnet
are they FREe of errors
sand garnet
Fookin' Rage Emitters because i dont understand fluids
frosty owl
Testing done @sand garnet
Red arrows show the direction in which I connected the rails
Train can go from each station to each station with no issues (except A-1 as there is NO WAY for it do do so)
But the train doesn't like going to Tom...
The route "A-2-B-1-2-Tom" worked fine but stopped at Tom, so I think we can conclude that Tom is the only one that cannot work, all the others do just fine
I know, the level of imagination I have for names is over 9000...
By the way, the rails going to the right from Tom are just for placing the locomotives/cart, it's a dead end
And the central piece of rail is still one single piece, the first one to be laid down actually
In case you are unsure what a F.R.E is
@oblique hollow Does this have an upper flow limit? 🤔
sand garnet
yeah the > < junction is borked
frosty owl
I expected that too, but better be sure
sand garnet
might want to try with >-< and also >--<
oblique hollow
@frosty owl in theory.... no
frosty owl
Right now it's >-< Tom
oblique hollow
since the buffer has no flow limit, the whole circuit has none
sand garnet
i dont see a single piece of rail in there between rthe junctions Vencam
can you hover over it with dismantle
frosty owl
Rails segments and junctions highlited
sand garnet
yeah that first junction from left to right needs to be changed
frosty owl
since the buffer has no flow limit, the whole circuit has none
@oblique hollow I tried it once when I was complaining about how I couldn't get 600/min in a pipe and it worked
Though that's not quite enough to be considered testing... 😅
sand garnet
can ou adapt it to both my suggestions to see what happens
frosty owl
I think it should be exactly like you described now, though. B-2 are connected by >-
sand garnet
nothe junction on the left is an ><
frosty owl
Oh, the loop?
Why?
By the way, it worked even without the loop, I added that to test for 2-B routes
sand garnet
like this
frosty owl
You want to test it like this?
sand garnet
yes
frosty owl
Back in the game I go...
sand garnet
and like this
frosty owl
I just noticed one of the station-to-middle segments was a double one, redone the thing and checking
-< works just fine, now I'll test >--< without then with loop
frosty owl
--< Works, with and without loop (I did a bit of a mess with yellow, but each segment is 1 piece of rail, exactly like the drawing except for the loop)
sand garnet
if you're feeling up to the challenge, you can try to solve my mystery issue with trains 😄
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7hxB7WHnwQ&feature=youtu.be this is the one
frosty owl
Yep, just finished @sand garnet, works in every and each scenario we considered
Can also use the loop to reach other stations
This the last setup I tried, with 2 rails between the left and middle junction, 1 to the right of that, like the drawing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7hxB7WHnwQ&feature=youtu.be this is the one
I might try tomorrow xD
sand garnet
if you want my save let me know
frosty owl
I just saw the video, but you don't mention where "smelting sands" is 😅
sand garnet
rocky desert
its all there
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcWI_jdoZw8&feature=youtu.be this is the other video accompanying it
it shows the other stations I think
frosty owl
Oh okay, now I see
Did you already try to rebuild the whole railway (just the part between the 2 stations, leaving other junctions alone)
sand garnet
yea
peak basalt
@sand garnet just based off what I can remember, im thinking your issue is caused by 2 trains on the same rail at relatively the same spot, 1 flips the switch to go left while the other wants to go right. Then it just doesn't know what to do after that.
Just bad timing on the trains.
If/when train collision was to be implemented, this wouldn't be a problem anymore.
frosty owl
I never saw that happening. Are you sure that happens?
I wouldn't put my hand on the fire, but I'm pretty sure my trains never did such a thing, despite being quite close toghether
peak basalt
Iv seen train miss their turn because they were too close together. Thats the only way I can explain why.
At work atm, but I can do a few tests when I get off work to see for sure one way ot the other.
frosty owl
At work atm, but I can do a few tests when I get off work to see for sure one way ot the other.
If you do, be sure to ping, please
I'll probably be sleeping so I'll check it out tomorrow
frosty owl
This is the setup now, arrows for the build-direction of rails, end of rails noted with the lines
Works
oblique isle
In terms of making it or power output?
Probably turbo heavy fuel
I never played around with it, but it just sounds like itll do much more
frosty owl
yeah thats what I thought too, I'll just run the math honestly
@thorny grail No need, just trust us
:It's better :)
You can actually find each fuel's energy value (in Joules) in the wiki
Even if you're not familiar with Joules, you can still compare the numbers
Ohhh
They burn the same, but one costs less HOR, thus less oil
The tradeoff is complexity of production and bigger number of machines needed
Then that's made for it!
*you
Quite. But you can look up the recipe and start building in the meanwhile ^^
Be efficient!
frosty owl
I usually scan them WHILE searching for more hard drives
I just can't resist doing so on I noticed I could just build a MAM wherever and scan/finish researches there
I feel your pain
You may want to wait until you have jetpack and hypertubes / convs mk4 so you can go around the map quite faster
Well, just use those to fling yourself around and jetpack to destination xD
I usually bring with me enough to make a HT cannon and biomass burners to fling me back home once I'm done exploring
Or use some belts if I don't feel like leaving materials behind
I've got mk4 and hypertubes I'm just super retarded in how I build out the factory
@thorny grail For help with the factory...
You know where to ask ;)
torpid bridge
Structure design issues: How to priority merger?
My oil refinery output 2 belts:
A : 600 rubber
B: 200 rubber
So I have a total of 800 rubber output.
A is made from the complex process ( Heavy Oil Residue, packaged fuel, etc...), so it means higher power consumption.
However, B is a simple process by the byproduct, polymer resin, so lower power consumption.
My question is that if my main factory only use little rubber, like 100 the byproduct production is enough so I don't need to work on belt A. I want to completely use the from belt B and nothing from until the requirement above 200.
Another example, if the requirement increased to 300, I would like to arrangement run out belt B and 100 from A. If I simply using the vanilla version of the merger, it would use both 150 rubber from A and B, that does not optimize the power consumption.
(suppose polymer resin is infinite because 1 store 14 boxes of them)
thorny grail
@thorny grail For help with the factory...
You know where to ask ;)
@frosty owl thanks man I just work slowly but I'll keep that in mind ❤️
frosty owl
My idea is that the best you can get is by following @oblique isle 's recipe: merging 200 from B and 100 from A, saving 500 from A 🤔
oblique isle
cough, I drew it out cough
torpid bridge
yep I gets from idea from @frosty owl @oblique isle , thanks for them but I would like to find whether there is a great solution exit
frosty owl
I figured, but wanted to avoid someone coming up with the same solution again
Good luck 😁
glacial hemlock
@torpid bridge a simple merge AB will do. In case you worried, split B into 2 (lets say, b-b), then merge Abb. And make sure you sink all the overflow B to prevent deadlock
Complete priority merger doesn't exist, but you can use the same arrangement from priority splitter then flip it around. More on wiki
torpid bridge
@glacial hemlock how to flip it around... ?
glacial hemlock
Swap splitter with mergers, all output belts change to input belts
Then reverse the conveyor lift direction
torpid bridge
still dont get, could u draw a simple draft? @glacial hemlock
torpid bridge
how could u swap splitter with merges ?
wind spade
reverse belt directions
bright elm
In terms of making it or power output?
@oblique isle Normal 600 crude oil turns to 26 gens. Turbo fuel can power 66
night jay
I'm trying to set up a computer factory, and I've come to a blueprint that will use 255 crdue oil per minute, and 261 caterium per minute, which through a ton of buildings will eventually produce 7.5 computers per minute, 76.67 fuel per minute to power 5 fuel generators, and 10 packaged fuel per minute for my jetpack. I don't think there is any other ways to make this more effective as it stands now.
https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=F8KM1oJWZshSP2gK0vD7
https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=VrcadVQSBFNhvyVzcMxh
Looking to see if I missed something to better optimize this
signal sky
tying power production to a line producing something is generally not advised, as eventually most lines will back up and shut off production, and with it, your power
night jay
I'm thhinking cause it's only 7.5 computers per minute, I'll be going through them fairly fast, and it not be until pretty late game that it gets backed up
by then, i'll have some other huge power plant set up and 5 fuel generators won't matter too much
but I do see your point
frosty owl
As long as you sink stuff properly, that should not be an issue
night jay
^
signal sky
I usually try to balance based on what the inputs are, vs the outputs
cause otherwise you end up with weird numbers like 255 oil and 261 caterium
it also works the other way tho, your fuel production, unless you're using 100% power all the time, will back up eventually, and stop your computer line
and its harder to sink fuel unless you wanna build some bottling stuffs
frosty owl
You got me at "balance"
night jay
yeah I may just try and rethink this whole bllueprint to optimize inputs. I forgot that if the fuel backups it's going to back up computers. crap
signal sky
idk what your bottle neck is, but I'd say increase the base numbers by more to a standard amount, and get more computers
frosty owl
and its harder to sink fuel unless you wanna build some bottling stuffs
@signal sky That's why the packaged fuel is convenient! 😁
Just store/sink the excess packaged fuel and keep feeding the loop canisters from some extra plastic you have
Or use the extra fuel for rubber/plastic production
signal sky
dont gotta use plastic anymore for canisters, which is nice
frosty owl
Oh right, that too!
signal sky
And if theyre working on a build to make 7.5 computers, i wouldnt think they have the alts for recycled plastic and rubber yet
night jay
correctamundo @signal sky lmao
frosty owl
Then sinking the packaged fuel would be the best way, IMO 😁
Also good to keep a trickle going to storage for jetpack
Although... You COULD just not care and set it up so that it just fills up a couple ISC of computers and then stop for overflow (by setting up buffers for the fuel) 🤔
frosty owl
@night jay with your numbers (the conversation belongs here) I think it'd be easier to just calculate by yourself. I can surely help with that if you want
(I always do my math by myself, I use the tools only to check my numbers after)
night jay
Maybe
frosty owl
In your example (having 100 fuel and turning it into recycled rubber/plastic) it's pretty easy ti figure nice numbers out as the recipe is a 1:1 for fuel/plastic and a 2 for the output
So you can get 200 of either plastic or rubber or 100 of each. Keep in mind that for each, you need HALF the amount flof the other just to produce it (so if you make 100 plastic and 100 rubber your overall output is just 50 of each as you'd be taking 50 from your previous production to start the recycling)
Clear enough?
night jay
Yeah, that's pretty clear. I posted what I've been able to get the calculator to do, and how Im just trying to make it put all three of the outputs into the alternate recipes to increase the production
frosty owl
Eh, I can't really help with that 😅
As I said, my experience with calculators isn't that extensive...
Good luck though! 😁
And of course, ping if you need 👍
hot ginkgo
https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=mlAoI4Ubob5NDDDekPod
This is using nothing but oil. Not even water. With all alternates enabled.@night jay
That is the best you'll get
night jay
I dont need to produce fuel, and also I'm thinking that since ill be using one of the pure nodes out on those oil beaches, Ill have a ton of water, so I might as well use it. This iis based on your idea earlier, I'm just splitting it up to make 450 of both instead of 900 of just one
https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=OHpS5f7smfjSOklOJTt9
sorry for causing a ton of headaches lmao
hot ginkgo
No worries thats the best way to do it.
frosty owl
The best setup (IMO) is to get 300 oil into 400 HOR, discard the polymer (or do what you want with it, I make fabric) turn the HOR ALL into fuel and then turn ALL the fuel into plastic rubber. Specifically 400 of each
You'll need to loop back 200 each for the recycling, so you'd be left with 200 each from 300 oil
How do you like this, @night jay ?^^
Also, no need to apologize, we're here 'cause we have fun in figuring these things out ahahah
hot ginkgo
Check the link I posted Ven, its pretty close to that. Specifically you use the diluted fuel alts. Recycled rubber/plastic alts. And even turn the leftover resin into more rubber/plastic.
900 from 300 oil and no waste.
night jay
I think the one I posted might be the most optimized. It’s 450 of each instead of 400, plus no extra polymern
frosty owl
Oh, my apologies, I didn't check the last one out, Party
Yeah, works perfectly! 😁
night jay
when you just realized that blueprint required 56 refineries
hot ginkgo
I just finished working ib my tuboplant. Basically the same start set up.
real haven
Hello folks. Just joined this discord and it's absolutely astounding to see other people actually mathing things out for this game. Since you are on the topic of oil and fuel, I have a question and haven't found an answer via google: is there a way to "sink" unburned fuel? I'm hesitant to use oil for fuel because i need the HOR production for plastic and such, and if i don't use all the power I produce, it won't burn fuel as fast and won't generate HOR as fast.
signal sky
Only 56 refineries
sand garnet
@real haven package it
use some of the packaged fuel for the jetpack, and sink the rest
real haven
So I could package it, send it to be unpacked for actual power plant usage, with a smart splitter sending overflow to be sinked. that makes perfect sense. Thank you Tom.
frosty owl
Hello folks. Just joined this discord and it's absolutely astounding to see other people actually mathing things out for this game. Since you are on the topic of oil and fuel, I have a question and haven't found an answer via google: is there a way to "sink" unburned fuel? I'm hesitant to use oil for fuel because i need the HOR production for plastic and such, and if i don't use all the power I produce, it won't burn fuel as fast and won't generate HOR as fast.
@real haven there are 2 ways I like to do that
- Use the excess fuel for plastic/rubber production (needs alternative recipes)
- Package the fuel and store it for jetpack while sinking the excess (like Tim said
The 2 can even be combined! 😁
oblique hollow
@frosty owl help, i found something even more effective than a FREqualizer
its a Slowpass Equalizer
frosty owl
So I could package it, send it to be unpacked for actual power plant usage, with a smart splitter sending overflow to be sinked. that makes perfect sense. Thank you Tom.
You can pack ONLY the excess fuel if you want. @oblique hollow will gladly explain how to manage overflow from pipes 😏
Also, welcome to the community, @real haven 😁
What do you mean "more effective"?
Bigger range of possibilities? 🤔
oblique hollow
Its even more dampening
So much so that it doesnt allow fast changes at all
I had my extractor set to 300 and then i set it to 60
and this. freaking. thing. does linear interpolation between
I set it to 60 like a minute ago and its still at 100, going down
this things is the absolute mega-lowpass filter
frosty owl
Hoho.... That sounds interesting!
But please don't tell me it required more the 1 buffer.....
😅
oblique hollow
its exactly 2 buffers LOL
frosty owl
Knew it XD
Scren and/or diagram?
oblique hollow
its a symmetrical Flow Rate equalizer.
diagram in 30 seconds
oblique hollow
yep
i set my extractor from 60 m³/min to 300 m³/min 3 minutes ago and its still just at 295
good god is this thing slow and smooth
i think i will record with OBS
frosty owl
I'll have to try it out and play with it a bit. I gotta admit I don't understand WHY it works, right now xD
ornate ridge
what are peoples thoughts on using heavy turbo fuel recipe vs normal?
frosty owl
Needs more machines, but uses less resources ^^
ornate ridge
so more lag? xD
signal sky
turbo heavy fuel is ehhh
oblique hollow
I'll have to try it out and play with it a bit. I gotta admit I don't understand WHY it works, right now xD
@frosty owl i also dont quite understand. All i did was playing around with the usual FRE design when suddenly this thing came to be
frosty owl
so more lag? xD
@ornate ridge If you already have issues, yes xD
Well, if it works.... @oblique hollow 🤣
ornate ridge
my multiplayer friend is already complaining on how big I build things xD
time for super lag energy 😂
is there a limit on how many nobelisks I can stick to my friend?
after 200 my screen was at 15fps lol
frosty owl
@oblique hollow The valve is set to how much?
Also, do the buffers fill up much? Shouldn't right?
frosty owl
@signal sky I especially liked the copper facility. Clean, glassy, shiny... And very walkable ^^
signal sky
its too bad those all have to be redone lmao
that's from before I even got steel going
frosty owl
highest they went to is about 70 each at 300 input
@oblique hollow I'll definetly check it out. But first I gotta stop hanging here and actually do things so I can free up some time ahahah
oblique hollow
check out the video i linked too
frosty owl
its too bad those all have to be redone lmao
@signal sky It's just a chance to make them even better!
Please do ping me if you make a screenshot of it, I really like the design and I'd love to see it updated :D
abstract copper
And now you have to tear up the floor in order to redo it?
frosty owl
check out the video i linked too
@oblique hollow the one in #streams-and-videos ?
oblique hollow
yep
abstract copper
It's very nicely aligned at least, maybe my friend isn't lining up with the catwalks properly. And is a space between the machines (within a single row) needed? I can't tell
frosty owl
Yeah, that was what I referred to, Galleon :D
It's very nicely aligned at least, maybe my friend isn't lining up with the catwalks properly. And is a space between the machines (within a single row) needed? I can't tell
@abstract copper Depends on the machine, really. Constructors don't need it as they align well, but you may want to leave some side space for refineries and assemblers so their input/output align properly (e.g. can fit directly into double conveyor walls)
abstract copper
The trench sorry that looked unnecessarily cluttered. Aren't those just packagers?
signal sky
well, idk what I have to do to it yet, since it doesnt really make anything but wire, cable, and sheets to be stored
frosty owl
And yeah, takes some time to learn how to place machines leaving space for walkways xD
signal sky
so we'll see what I need first
might just have to belt up everything and output it to a new building and not redo everything
frosty owl
The trench sorry that looked unnecessarily cluttered. Aren't those just packagers?
@abstract copper I gotta agree with you there xD
@signal sky Have you tried setting them up in 2 rows in front of each other? Then they can share the pipes ;)
Like so #screenshots message
signal sky
they are just packagers yea, but i didnt redo any belts or pipes from when they were refineries
abstract copper
I should convince my friend to convert to the "sunken building" look at least
frosty owl
I'll also share this since I found it ahahah #screenshots message
signal sky
the way it work is there is 1 refinery running to 2 packagers, no combining pipes
so the building theyre in is very empty looking
since it was built to hold refineries
frosty owl
I should convince my friend to convert to the "sunken building" look at least
Once you go sunken, you never go back!
Jokes aside, is VERY convenient