because its a cannon
#math-and-meta
sand garnet
wind spade
they are able to transport you both ways iirc
sand garnet
they are, but thats not what a hypertube cannon is
sand garnet
thats what that is
wind spade
the thing where you spam entrances to get more speed in the tube
sand garnet
yeah thats what that is
bleak coral
hypertube cannons into hypertubes take a ton of resources and time to set up, but they don't get you across the map instantly like a proper cannon
bleak coral
if you've built one of those you've already explored the entire area between entrances
sand garnet
wind spade
I talk about >>>==================================<<<
bleak coral
I don't see a problem with really fast hypertubes
sand garnet
if you're building it to where you need to go, then how is it bad for exploration
bleak coral
I just the issue you're having with cannons themselves
wind spade
it's bad for transportation. Too easy
sand garnet
you need to actually walk all the way to that other location building the whole thing
bleak coral
it's just as easy as laying train tracks
wind spade
you nullify the distance between two points. Distance is no longer a thing. You forgot something on the other end of the map? no problem, I'll be there in 10 seconds.
sand garnet
the distance between those 2 points is no longer a thing
meaning that setup is useless for exploration
bleak coral
actually harder cause over long distances you'll need boosters
wind spade
stop taking exploration in this, I've said several times that it's the transportation element I'm unhappy with
bleak coral
it's the same thing as why you can't have jetpack + legs equipped at the same time. They are trying to balance exploration, so that you have to work for your meal. Same should go for transportation. If something is FAR, it should take LONG to go there, not 10 seconds because you spammed launchers
@wind spade you brought up exploration
sand garnet
you're the one mentioning exploration here
wind spade
no, I've said it's the same thing, that they are trying to balance it
sand garnet
'those are all affected by hypertube launchers'
wind spade
@sand garnet read it again. "There are other factors, like X and Y"
bleak coral
whatever, this is pointless, I'm just gonna leave it as we disagree
sand garnet
for transporation between factories I dont see an issue with it, sure there could be a speed cap to not make it as insane as it is right now, but limiting it to near-pointless speeds is bad IMO
wind spade
I also don't get why are you trying to convince me. I said that in my opinion, hypertube launchers (which is the part where you have multiple entrances, doesn't matter if there's a cannon or hypertube after it) are too OP and weird and I'd like to see the hypertubes changed in some way. I also suggested such a way - speed cap + faster entrances + boosters as inline building that you can put on the hypertube, but you still can't go over the speed cap
sand garnet
a speed cap, regardless of whether it just says 'if speed >= X, speed = X' on the current system or by a new design with boosters etc is ok with me
but it should definitely be a lot higher than 1 or 2 entrances
as default speed for hypertubes is very underwhelming and people should be rewarded for creativity
wind spade
game mechanics should also be clear, which hypertube launchers aren't
nowhere in the game it says "build more entrances to get more speed"
sand garnet
thats because they're an exploit
wind spade
which would be solved by having a dedicated booster thingy
if devs want to keep that ingame
sand garnet
mario 64 also does not explain how to do the backwards longjump
wind spade
well on the other hand, SF is in-development EA game, as compared to M64 which is released finished game with no futher updates
sand garnet
those that want to use it will find the method via external sources
wind spade
so SF still can have that fixed
sand garnet
if the devs intended for speedboosts in the hypertubes I'm curious why they didnt just straight up add booster tubes
kinda like the pipeline pumps
sand garnet
right, which is why the boosts arent explained in the game and those that use the launchers will know how they work because they rely on external sources
my assumption was the devs dont want to include it natively and just expect people that look for such a feature to use mods or exploits
wind spade
yeah, but now that devs know they are a thing, I suggesteed an alternate way that would both make the mechanics more understandable for people and make the hypertubes more balanced
sand garnet
the problem is that making it a vanilla feature also encourages such gameplay which may not be what the devs want considering their vision of the hypertubes as it currently stands is one without boosters
inb4 next week's teaser includes vanilla hypertube boosters 😄
wind spade
yeah that's why I suggested a speed cap of 1.5-2 times the normal entry speed
would be slightly faster, but not too much
and the boosters would just set the speed to max (so you can do uphill parts easier)
sand garnet
remind me tomorrow to test the speed
I have a cannon setup to launch through the water volume to get to my underwater factory
trim geyser
well, if you dont like hypertube cannons or launchers, dont build them. its that simple
dont wait for devs to fix things, because we all know they take their time
but yea, i also dislike the launchers
i just do the accelerators because i really think the tubes are way too slow
glacial hemlock
When I build factory outposts, I use cannons to yeet between them. I can't imagine the gameplay without cannons.
wind spade
@trim geyser well my suggestions are targeted towards more balanced and consistent gameplay, you don't have to agree with me, but it's not really about my own gameplay (considering I last played Satisfactory somewhere around May 2019)
neat light
Not everything is balance and consistency tho. The fun factor in yeeting yourself across the map is a tangible factor to be considered. I havent used any mods yet but if tubes were nerfed I would def look for a mod to maintain the current level of yeet
As it is now, we have both. Win-win. I dont see how it would detract from someone else's gameplay experience if im using cannons
I do support adding an in-line booster tho as they are a bit slow. But am squarely against removing the mechanics that make cannons possible.
wicked drum
I'm not sure if I agree with @wind spade or not. While it is true the hyper cannon requires the players to exploit the game to access the fastest form of transportation, maybe we should allow it to exist because without it long range travel is completely awful. If you forgot fucking rods at your first base you'd have to go ALLLLL the way back. Maybe that would encourage more planning and logistics before going to build something, but I don't think most players want that to happen. If you don't want to use the hypertube, you don't have to. Maybe they should just add a literal Hyper Cannon building that does this. If the exploit's in the game now then the developers might as well make it into a real building. Then they can remove the exploit and lock fast travel until late game
nova orchid
or just could call it a feature rather than exploit and forget about it lol
keen patio
Just catching up on the hypertube stuff.. altho I dont think devs check this channel much (Per snutts comments about #math-and-meta scaring the bejesus out of him)
I'm definitely against leaving it as is. Its WAY too fast.
My short list of preferred changes would be:
- Gravity doesn't effect hypertube speed (You go up inclines the same speed you go down them)
- Acceleration mechanic; The longer you are in a hypertube without pushing any controls, the faster you should go. ((Edit; Or, holding 'forward' while facing forward accelerates you.. rewarding those who don't AFK in hypertubes.))
- Minimum speed = the current 45 degree downward speed should be the minimum! Note; This is while WALKING into a single hypertube entrence. Not running, no bladerunners)
fallen gull
Hypertubes are fast NOW. When teleportation arrives they`ll will be slow.
wanton axle
<<< will be Satisfactory's version of Dr. McCoy - tubes are too much fun LOL
wind spade
Hypertubes are fast NOW. When teleportation arrives they`ll will be slow.
@fallen gull if teleportation arrives
and also, they will be always fast. they can be faster than trains which are later tier
trim geyser
maybe we should take this to the QA website. I dont think this discord channel is meant for this. Or is it?
wind spade
well it was just a discussion
I don't really want to do this as a vote or something, most people don't like the good stuff being taken away from them, even if it's just for balancing reasons
signal nimbus
Not sure if this is the right channel for this, but does anyone have any experience with trip resistant power grids? I had a few ideas, but if someone tried it and it didn't work or even work well, I'd rather not waste time in the game.
signal sky
You'd have to build a secondary power plant and factories to solely power the factories that power your main plant
Which means the power could still trip, but you'd always be able to start it back up immediately
bleak coral
You can avoid trips completely if you only build enough generators for resources you're providing and send all overflow to the sink to flatten your usage as much as possible
That gives you the best readings to know when you need more power
signal nimbus
Okay... a variation of the first was one of my ideas, and I like the second. The other idea I had was to build more generators than the fuel production could technically support, put storage between the primary and secondary, and even though the readings would be off, it would be able to handle spikes above the real max without tripping.
fresh elm
yeah, all you really need to do is send it all to the sink.
if all your machiens are always running, they'll never trip the power 😄
bleak coral
Spikes are a result of the way you built your factory, you can minimized spikes to the point that they're not an issue
signal sky
Just always build a fuck ton of power tbh
bleak coral
If you have spiky power, you can build around that
fresh elm
or, you can just build a power plant using all the uranium in the world, and never run out of power.
I pretty much guarantee the game will hard lock (not crash) before I use all the power at my disposal
signal nimbus
Lemme get back to you on that when I get over 10 GW... still early on.
bleak coral
I think a dev will break into your house and take custody of your poor, abused game if you try to use all your power, klepdar 😆
fresh elm
the game has stopped crashing for me at least
I'm taking a break until 3.5
I'm not a huge fan of factorio, but I've been mucking around in it til then
signal sky
Even my first fuel gen setup didn't make that much power
Turbofuel is where things actually get efficient for oil
fresh elm
I've got a little over 1.2 TW of power
signal nimbus
...I think I need to pick up the pieces of my mind being blown by that one.
fresh elm
if you want to play with it, you have to sub to kibitz on twitch because I threw it in his save sharing thing as a member bonus lol
bleak coral
Fuel is pretty meh with vanilla recipes
fresh elm
it has my ridonkulous oil processing facility too
signal sky
Yea, my first adventure into oil made 300 plastic and 300 Rubber/m and gave like 6500MW or something
Not a lot
signal nimbus
I dont have the computer for that...
fresh elm
I don't even know how much I'm making
signal sky
With no alts or anything
fresh elm
but I bet scim will tell me
my save file is 25 megs
to give you an idea
my anonymous crash reports are... not so anonymous
although I guess they are now
since a bunch of people are loading it now lol
wind spade
Not sure if this is the right channel for this, but does anyone have any experience with trip resistant power grids? I had a few ideas, but if someone tried it and it didn't work or even work well, I'd rather not waste time in the game.
@signal nimbus best trip resistant power grid is such one that can't trip, so you produce more power than you consume 😛
fresh elm
I'm producing about 5500 plastic and rubber / minute
no, sorry, I shouldn't scan. 5000 rubber, 5500 plastic
I am using 178k m3 of water / minute
taht's a fun stat to know lol
(and people wonder why I just power shard all my water extractors instead of building more lol)
fallen gull
That’s a lot of water, how many extractors?
fallen gull
657
@fresh elm then you really use a lot of shards for water hehe
fresh elm
I use 3 in every extractor
I have thousands spare
(just the nature of having a doggo farm)
gleaming marten
Math nerds, I beseech you. How do I get 100% efficient concrete out of a 240/m limestone belt?
gleaming marten
well it would be 240/45 but that's 5.333333
fresh elm
yeah, then set some constructors to 33%
wind spade
you can also use some of the online tools, for example: https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=7dNrPV1akptBM7ysa9Ee
signal nimbus
Total side note that makes my math brain happy: 6.4 Compacted Coal Assemblers and 8.4 Water Extractors perfectly fuel 22.4 Coal Generators. 9 of the above system perfectly mimic the exact Compacted Coal use of a Turbo Fuel Power Plant generating 60000 MW, and generate 15120 MW, which is enough to power the Turbo Fuel factory that fuels the generators.
...yes my backup generator is also my staircase generator.
wicked drum
How many items per minute does a tractor transport vs a conveyer belt
wicked drum
how do you calculate this
any belt, i just want to understand the speed of the tractor vs a given belt
wind spade
basically because vehicles are limited by belts peed anyway, belts are always better
vehicles are nice if you want to play with them, but trains are the best anyway and vehicles can behave weirdly sometimes
if you want to calculate it anyway, just take the total number of items vehicle can carry and divide it by number of minutes it takes to do the full lap and you'll get items/min throughput
signal nimbus
Trucks might have an advantage in that they dont need to stop to fill up or dump, but what stops me from immediately jumping on board is that trucks require fuel and trains require electricity. Belts require neither.
dusky dust
On the other hand especially if you're dragging resources halfway across a map, it's a lot easier to scale up train throughput than belt throughput
Just add some more cars, and/or more trains
Not that you couldn't lay like six mk5s from one corner of the map to the other, of course, but especially if you already have a rail network, IMO it's often a more attractive choice
Though I admit that there's use cases for all three options, of course. :)
signal nimbus
This is very true.
I may or may not be building a base that can justify an internal subway system...
dusky dust
heh
signal nimbus
What's the usual use case that justifies trucks?
dusky dust
Hah, honestly dunno, I don't really use 'em personally.
I've got one little miniscule trailer run in my current base for a resource which thanks to placement would've been annoying as hell to belt, and not nearly enough room to train, so I've got a little trailer going the long way around. :P
I know some folks like using 'em for transporting oil products early game?
signal nimbus
Interesting idea...
dusky dust
For a value of "early game" which admits "oil products"
I suppose "mid game" would be a more appropriate term
signal nimbus
Early-mid game/coal-oil transition period?
dusky dust
heh
signal nimbus
I'm in that awkward place right now.
bleak coral
there's nothing truck stations can do that belts can't do better
and adding new stations and trucks/tractors is at least as labor intensive as adding another belt
more likely more
and you totally have to have trucks wait at truck stations to fully load/unload
signal nimbus
Line up the truck stations and drive the truck through without stopping. TotalXClipse showed this in one of his test videos.
bleak coral
it might grab one load, but it doesn't grab everything in one animation time
so it'll be setup dependent
signal nimbus
True, but if you drive it through three or four and each grabs a load, then you're unloaded without stopping.
bleak coral
lol I guess that's an overly-complicated way of doing it
trucks are for-fun (IMO) anyway, so might as well go as extra as possible
signal nimbus
Exactly.
bleak coral
do you know how many stacks it grabs in one go? I just know it's not all of them
signal nimbus
Not off the top of my head. Haven't looked into transportation as much as I have production and resource efficiency.
That I looked into enough to make a decent case for Turbo Heavy Fuel.
bleak coral
vs diluted fuel -> turbo fuel?
turbo heavy fuel only wins if you don't have turbo fuel, or if you have heavy oil residue but not diluted fuel
signal nimbus
It's less efficient by every metric, dont get me wrong. That said, it's almost as sulfur-efficient and takes up a relatively small fraction of the space.
Also, you get more of the energy you produce.
So, if you have a certain design in mind or just dont want to spend the time, you could justify it as the second-most resource-efficient option and one of the more time-efficient options.
My designs:
Turbo Heavy Fuel
In: 1350 Crude Oil, 1440 Coal, 1440 Sulfur
93 Refineries, 57.6 Assemblers, 320 Fuel Generators
Out: 900 Polymer Resin
Net power (excluding miners): 45741 MW
Turbo Fuel
In: 900 Crude Oil, 2400 Water, 1440 Coal, 1440 Sulfur
246 Refineries, 57.6 Assemblers, 400 Fuel Generators
Out: 600 Polymer Resin, 240 Fuel
Net Power (excluding miners): 55446 MW
slender patrol
The amount if refineries 😣
glacial hemlock
https://satisfactory.gamepedia.com/Tutorial:Production_line#Complex_production_line
Is the math too complex?
fierce ruin
@glacial hemlock the math doesn't seem too complex. the only little problem i see are: some calculus are kinda shown backward (i'm thinking about the "Overclock the Miner" part, where you show that 150% and 225% overlock work on your exemple, but the interesting thing is more to be able to do it the other way: says you want an integer ratio, and calcul how much overcloak is needed). And the other thing that bother me is in the begining of "Fractions and decimals", the formula: "60 / 45 = 1.333 or 1 1/3"; it's probably linked to how we write math in different language, but seen 1 1/3 writen is strange to me; i would wrote 1+1/3 or 4/3 to make it clearer).
Both of these thing are minor corrections, overall i think this page is really clear.
sullen cloud
@sand garnet hey tom. have the devs commented on the 'level of detail' issue in the last months? Like, as the different chunks of the map are loaded now I frequently have the issue that critters are only 'spawned' / shown when I am already in the chunk of the map and they directly stand in front of me. I get that this is more efficient regarding loading the map details but the gameplay when exploring is kinda frustrating compared to former times.
sand garnet
thats normal and no they havent commented on it
sullen cloud
But isn’t that very different to before? Like I enter a chink with a spitter, walk like 10-20m, chunk is ‚deloaded‘ and I am no longer able too see the spitter tho it should be very close
sand garnet
its more important for performance to be good than for exploration to be amazing
factory gameplay is the most important part of the game
sullen cloud
kk, thanks. but you observe the same behaviour in your saves?
sand garnet
yea
glacial hemlock
@fierce ruin thanks for comments! I will look into it
trim geyser
for ppl wondering about trucks, for anything longer than 1km, it is much cheaper to setup a truck station than to setup a long mk3 belt.
That is the only advantage i can see
sand garnet
trucks etc are just 'oh i want a fun alternative'. they're not very practical right now
hazy wren
Currently i have like 6-9 (nice) mk3 conveyor busses on one tower being connected no matter how far it is, but i plan to move from the grasslands to the desert for richer resources and more building space
quick gorge
So who knows the dead middle of the map?
Erm math because Triangulation... yes, sure
sand garnet
just teleport to 0,0
quick gorge
Now that just feels like cheating... hmm
Well it's legit a pile of rocks.
What's that mod that allows me to remove "unbreakable" rocks and trees?
sand garnet
dunno, check the modding discord
glacial hemlock
the middle of the map is located at the mini swamp at lake forest. You can use online map to find it easily
quick gorge
It's a pile of rocks lol
frosty owl
Now, this isn't something I calculated, but ratye an opinion out of experience...
I bet that if one where to build on a single floor, using only alternative recipes and covered all the nodes, he would actually make enough machines to cover more then 2/3 of the map
Agree or disagree? 🤔
wind spade
disagree
1st problem - just covering 2/3rds of the map with foundations is impossible due to entity limit
and I haven't calculated it either, but I've seen people do the 150 TM/min and just having a relatively small coverage even if it's just one floor
it would probably depend on how well you work with space, but I think if you put it close together, you'd use max of like 1/6 of the map
quick gorge
It also depends on if you have walkways or you just play Tetris... and making it hear impossible to move around.
Having a million walkways though everything does add up space wise
stone vigil
Isn't the purpose of trucks game performance for heavily built worlds?
Because they programmed in performance stuff for them when you're far away, they use less processing power than the equivalent number of belts once you hit a high distance?
quick gorge
I've... never used trucks after alpha.
With all my trucks going into the void I'm content with belts or trains.
dusky dust
Ah, I suppose I've heard that too re: performance
sand garnet
trucks still require pathing etc if theyre nearby and they dont scale well with a large factory
as they dont have any collision avoidance and proper pathing
stone vigil
Right, I'm talking specifically about far off low-travel areas, like just collecting resources from the corners of distant zones
as opposed to just kilometers of belts
hot ginkgo
I use them to bring distant nodes to a central spot like a train. The 3 bauxite nodes at the east end of the red forest get collected by a truck. Which then drops it off at a train.
Convience in my head. No need to clear out areas for belts.
stone vigil
Yeah, that's my plan I think too, just tricky getting the right number of trucks to make sure you're not capping your throughput
sand garnet
for long distances, trains are just better
stone vigil
I'd appreciate it if there was a centralized guide somewhere on how strongly things factor into killing performance, there seem to be some things that people have suspicions about but it's very hard to test
dusky dust
'course that's a bit tough 'cause the game's still getting performance-tweak updates, etc
stone vigil
Complicated train networks seem to kill performance too, and are harder on the entity count
dusky dust
So your centralized guide would need regular maintenance
stone vigil
Yeah, it's awkward trying to do that for something that's going to be updated in 3 weeks and then again in a few months
And the testing time is just.. prohibitive
dusky dust
(gasp, not maintenance)
stone vigil
Like, I've heard that using a train system that focuses on A-B routes instead of a huge network that causes more intense pathing calculations is better
but like.. trying to test that is a massive pain, because you have to rebuild a train system someone probably spent.. 20+ hours building? more if it's super complex?
young rover
would be nice to see what people have done with trains
sand garnet
mine break, so not fun to watch
dusky dust
Yeah, you'd need to do the work to set up a set of "testing" saves and then run benchmarks or whatever on 'em, with every release
And of course an update might break the old saves in some way. :D
stone vigil
The best we'd probably do is like a coders perspective from someone familiar with the source, saying like"having a train system with 10+ pathing options increases calculation time exponentially" or like "each section of belt takes up this much calculation relative to a distant truck" etc, but unless a hobbyist can even look at that it's a little pointless for devs to spend that much time on it this early
dusky dust
In conclusion, we need to spin up an alternate universe where we've all got sufficient free time and motivation to do all this. :)
stone vigil
I wonder if they've even bothered with that internally to try and decide what is worth looking at optimizing
dusky dust
And then find a way to tunnel information from that universe back to us for reporting
obsidian sluice
this is unrelated but I just had a thought: how fast do liquids travel in a pipe? I know throughput's 300m^3/min, but I never actually considered how long it takes for liquids to travel idk, 1km?
stone vigil
The only other thing I'll say because maybe someone has heard from the devs regarding this, because it confuses me: people say doing remote factories is less performance intensive than one massive factory, because the game doesn't fully load all the visual models and stuff (one reason why modded buildings can negatively impact performance, because they're always fully loaded), but then why do distant belts hurt performance? Especially if they're fully maxed out, their underlying calculation should be super easy until it hits a splitter
obsidian sluice
I usually turn on the tap and walk off, so I never actually thought about that
sand garnet
not sure, also not sure if gravity affects it
stone vigil
Pipes are all constant diameter, so for any length of pipe with a 300 m^3/min flow the velocity is constant
Wiki has them at 2m diameter, so the area is pi m^2, so for 300 m^3/min, 300/pi m/min is the velocity (~95.5 m/min)
wind spade
calculations are not "super easy" @stone vigil
stone vigil
I used one specific example that maybe is hard to identify in realtime for the code, so it's fair to point out that I'm oversimplifying
Lots of the systems are complex, but I was just saying that on the surface it could be the case that the performance requirement for a belt that is fully maxed out consistently, the length of the belt should not be a factor in the performance requirements
performance usage* not sure about correct term
I don't know if the game can look at it like that, I'm just expressing confusion about two ideas of 'performance factors' maybe being a little contradictory, unless I'm missing something - I was hoping someone was aware of something a dev said about it, since it's hard to know otherwise
I get that people come in here and think optimizing performance in a game is easy, and it's absolutely not, so I could have used better phrasing, my bad
obsidian sluice
no worries! I tend to assume good faith for most of the people in here
and yeah, there isn't an agreed definition on a lot of the game-related terminology we toss around when we talk about the game from a more meta perspective?
so most of us just use words that intuitively make sense to us
wind spade
depends on the actual implementation, but I think it's basically something like
find every item that's in the game
if the item is on a belt
do math to figure out where to move the item
repeat this every tick (60 times per second)
ofc there may be some optimizations in place (for example, having the list of items on belts ready and add/remove items from that list), but it's A LOT of math per second. I know processors can do even more math, but even if it's simple math, it's sheer amount means that it takes some time to do the math
neat light
I'm currently running tests to see how many belts will cause my pc to make fire. So far at 300km of belts, only slight smoke, no fire
obsidian sluice
wasn't there someone on the subreddit with 9999.99km of belts or something like that?
dude's computer was running at 24 seconds per frame or something like that
neat light
Maybe. Belts seem pretty damn effecient. I've actually been trying to test how bad the difference is between belts with items, belts without items, and belts with moving items. I'm still setting up my test bed and likely will be for another couple weeks
obsidian sluice
godspeed
I personally run mk 5 belts on everything, and mk 1 belts in my manifolds if the machine takes <60 items/min
neat light
Same
obsidian sluice
I don't actually know if mk 1 belts make a difference to anything, but it's a habit
neat light
I think it helps with the spool up time on manifolds but not by a huge degree
trim geyser
yeah i would be curious to know if using mk1 belts over mk5 belts would have an advantage performance wise in situations where you dont need the extra speed. And how about using multiple mk1 belts vs a single mk5 belt to achieve the same speed?
Probably something only the devs can answer though.
glacial hemlock
@obsidian sluice first time i see spf instead of fps.
obsidian sluice
yeah lmao dude was literally playing on powerpoint
I remember him regretting his life choices
obsidian acorn
I'm just trying to use satisfactory calculator to figure out how to make a 15 rotor per minute factory and I get all this wtf
bleak coral
That's cause it does the logistics for you, that's all the machines, mergers, splitters and everything
obsidian acorn
thank you
muted crypt
links are also here in this channel's pins
vital sandal
if im doing my math right a full water pipe can support 6 coal gens right?
inconvenient formula because trial and error```
thin stump
Yes it can
vital sandal
thank youu
thin stump
45 times 6 is 270
vital sandal
yeah, i was doing it step by step until i overflowed
thin stump
You could hook up 7 if you underclock one of them
hot ginkgo
The best system is 3 extractor to 8 coal gens using 2 pipes. Perfect numbers all around without any need for clock adjustments.
ruby violet
nice
signal nimbus
Need some help with... basic/advanced (not sure which) fluid physics in the game. I have an extractor hooked up to a lot of pumps (I think 50) horizontally. The pipe travels for maybe 480 m (60 foundations) or so horizontally, then 240 meters (60 wall segments) straight up. The head lift capacity of the system should be 1010 based on the math I know, so it should make it up the vertical rise no problem. What I'm seeing is that it stops after filling the first pipe segment about half full or so. What's the big, obvious issue that I'm completely spacing on?
vital sandal
am i doing this in a dumb way?
the bottom 3 and top left lines need to be 30/m
i have 4 smelters i need to give 30/m
signal sky
Manifold
vital sandal
manifold?
im new to making things optimized, my last factory was a spaghetti bowl and just kinda added stuff when i needed more
signal sky
vital sandal
ah, i could do it that way but for some reason i have my mind set on not having a build up time
bleak coral
you can manually deliver some ore to bypass the warmup time, and also turn things on as you build a whole system so things are warming up while you're building
signal sky
Build up time for 4 smelters isn't too bad :P
But if you want load balancing
Just have it go to one splitter, have 2 lines coming out of it, each of those go to it's own splitter, each of those having 2 lines coming out
signal nimbus
...non-additive. Thank you, that solves everything.
bleak coral
at least you built it straight up, it'll be easier to place the pumps than if you were going diagonal
just every 5 walls
signal nimbus
Yeah... is there a channel for pictures of things built here?
hot ginkgo
@signal nimbus #screenshots
signal nimbus
Thanks! Just gotta clean up the scaffolding a bit before I take it.
wind spade
if im doing my math right a full water pipe can support 6 coal gens right?
@vital sandal yes, but it's better to not max pipes and rather do the 3:8 ratio for better numbers
signal nimbus
The only situation I'd see that in is if you're working with 180 Coal/minute. In that case, lining up 5 extractors to fill 2 pipes exactly and using those two pipes to fill 12 generators should, I think, keep the pipe clutter to a minimum.
fierce ruin
Or even 13 generators.
signal nimbus
I'd only do that for a surge protection system with water storage between the source and the last generator.
fierce ruin
Though it could be slightly more cluttery.
signal nimbus
At that point I might just find another 90 coal per minute and run 20 with three full pipes.
Unless my math is off there too...
*+120 coal, not 90.
The water tower ate my math today.
I do like the reactions to my screenshot, though...
keen patio
Get compacted coal early.
I think I have 36 coal gens running on a single mk3 belt of compacted.. running on 14 (13.5) water extractors)
signal nimbus
Literally why I built the water tower, actually.
wind spade
I'm not sure how's your water tower supposed to work, but I don't think it's a good idea
you can ofc build whatever you want, but it just doesn't seem to help you in any way
signal nimbus
Ever take a look at Totalxclipse's guide on pumpless water systems?
By creating an artificial high point, I think I can connect it to completely filled pipes and push as much water as I want up to that same level without using 2000 pumps.
wind spade
well for one I think that's kinda cheaty and wouldn't be surprised if that got removed. And second, I'd usually put the stuff that needs water somewhere near water, so I wouldn't have to use pumps at all 😉
silent mortar
Horizontal distance means nothing to pipes, so you can carry it from one end of the world to the other without ever using a single pump. Its just vertical is the problem. And unless you want to make everything just flatly drift out into the sea like I did with my caterium refinery, you either have to burn a lot of energy on pumps, or just energy on a single line of pumps cross connected to the entire pipe network. 🙂
glacial hemlock
scenic matrix
supposedly there is a bug where if you put a pump at the highest point of a pipeline, all additional pipelines will share it's headlift lol
but prob not the best idea to become dependent on it cuz likely that'll be removed eventually
signal nimbus
Oh no, that's not the physics I'm abusing. There's pumps all the way up to the water tower.
I just copied a real-life concept
wind spade
just in real life ALL the water goes through the water tower
signal nimbus
True.
glacial hemlock
But flow rate doesn't amplify, the head lift irl should only apply to that amount of flow
In satisfactory, headlift is copied to the entire pipeline regardless of the flow.
fierce ruin
Links to calculators are at #welcome
@wispy cradle you mean to say I wasted all that time xD
wispy cradle
No, you trained your pacience, trained basic math and got a lot of knowledge about the game.
fierce ruin
I was planning on doing a full space elevator costing spreadsheet 😦
fierce ruin
My head... Brain, just setup full efficieny factory for all production types nad automated all parts at full efficiency and fed straight into elevator
willow igloo
If you press n you get an in game calculator. Just have to know 780 / inputs needed for craft and that how many machines in a line you need to to eat the full line
For a perfect top down factory design, a browser based calculator works fine
fierce ruin
N brings up quick search for me?
neat light
It's also a calculator if you type in an equation
wispy cradle
The calculator operates last operations first, LOL
like: 100/2*4=12.5, but the correct is 200
signal sky
someone took pemdas a little bit too literally
fierce ruin
like: 100/2*4=12.5, but the correct is 200
@wispy cradle you got a point
glacial hemlock
@fierce ruin i see. Pun intended
fierce ruin
@glacial hemlock i dont see, whoosh over my head
fierce ruin
@wispy cradle just completed tier 7 now 😄
willow igloo
When you type in multisteo equations into the search bar, use parenthesis
abstract copper
Is bunny hopping still faster than running with blade runners?
sand garnet
no
timber arch
I'm looking into doing a No Factory run of the game, and I'm trying to calculate the total ore needed for the run. Are there any calculators/tools that could assist me in getting this math done? I've started off a spreadsheet but I dread having to manually fill it if there is already a tool out there that can tell me how much raw resources are needed for a given part production..
timber arch
The rules for oil is one extractor to one refinery, no automated extraction from the refinery
Aluminum isnt needed for the space elevator, and the goal is to unlock all stages of space elevator
wind spade
well you can just put what you need in the calculator and you'll get the amount of ores needed 🙂
timber arch
Yeah, thats the idea, But i dont know what calculator exists to give me the info i need
timber arch
All of the calculators I have, and have found, are for production lines, not raw resources needed
wind spade
bleak coral
Just ignore the per minute part, it's the same calculations
signal nimbus
...all in favor of making water extractors snap to grids?
timber arch
Ignoring the parts per minute on greeny's calculator still doesnt tell me total raw resource requirements
bleak coral
Yes it does, put in 1000 HMF all vanilla recipes and look at the ore needed
timber arch
All i am getting is factory layouts.
bleak coral
ignore all that, it shows how much ore you need
timber arch
Okay, where then? I'm not seeing this number 😦
bleak coral
timber arch
Ooooh okay, that makes better sense now.
bleak coral
just have to make sure to only use vanillas and no alts, cause that's all you can use at the bench
timber arch
Yeh. This is going to be fun as heck to plan out, but terrible to execute.
Just to unlock rotors, i found i neded to manually make 1225 iron ingots
bleak coral
gonna need to find something to put on the spacebar or make a macro that can hold space
cause I doubt you want to hold a button for literal hours
bleak coral
lol
timber arch
This should tide me over until update 4
glacial hemlock
Maybe you can unlock nuclear at 10 years later
jaunty gulch
I use tape because i bound it to a mouse button, but there are definitely times when you have to do that
elfin garden
Just wanted to check my math here, make sure I'm not forgetting something.
480 coal/15=32 Coal generators which produce 1800 MWs/ minute
wispy cradle
2400 MW
elfin garden
I'm glad I checked. Thank you.
forest minnow
so, im planning on upgrading to coal power, and i wanna know how many generators i should have for one mk2 miner
im bad at math so i wanna get this right the first time
sand garnet
depends on the node
forest minnow
hmmm
fierce ruin
the easy "basic" thing for coal is for 120 coal (1 pure miner mk1, or 1 normal mk2 for exemple) you can use 8 generators, that use 3 water extractors.
steady jolt
my current setup for plastic and rubber is making 400 plastic/min, 200 rubber/min and 1200 coke/min (all going into sinks). How decent is that?
heres the setup
cedar mica
1200 coke, is 48 coal gens or 3,6GW of power, that you are just sinking. If you are worried about backup, use a smart splitter with overflow to a sink
steady jolt
right, thats what i was planning on doing, I just need to find a good source of water
the sinks are definitely not permanent
pseudo thistle
whats the most low effort way to unlock everything legit
hot ginkgo
Automate everything.
hot ginkgo
I guess hand crafting. But that seams like even more effort to me. And boring.
Either way you still have to automate the space elevator parts.
pseudo thistle
ive been trying to design a filter system that just.... has exactly 1 input for each material, and exactly 1 end plant for each end product
and just... slowly fills 1 cago of each end product at a time
its just one line of factories... and 1 resource buffer
hot ginkgo
Can't really do that due to the different resource needs from many things.
pseudo thistle
well you can
hot ginkgo
Its not going to be the one single line of machines I feel like you're looking for.
pseudo thistle
hmmm maybe im not exaplaining
its 1 input
feeding 1 seperate line for each end product
so 1 pipe line, 1 plate line, 1 screw line
then when you go up a tier, the reinforced plate line also has its feeder materials in the same line, not pulling from the original plate/screw line
signal nimbus
I think I get the concept. You'll want Smart Splitters as early as possible for that.
pseudo thistle
its like 1 factory for each end product, but all fed from a single resource input buffer
hot ginkgo
I understand.
signal nimbus
Actually never mind... that last line threw me for a loop.
pseudo thistle
so like eventually the line runs out, but . eventually the earlyer factories brick up and cant produce more, freeing the metal to travel further and further up
hot ginkgo
Remove the buffer from it. No need for a buffer in production when you know exactly whats being produced.
pseudo thistle
think producing verything from 1 resource node for each resource
pseudo thistle
so i only have 1 input for each resource
hot ginkgo
Especially at lower tiers when you're limited to slow belt speeds.
pseudo thistle
so tier 1 has to basically brick up and fill a cargo before t2 even gets resources
hot ginkgo
That is doable. Youll be waiting a while for later tiers to build up. Especially with only one node per resource.
pseudo thistle
yeah
so eventually you oveclock the miners and upgrade the belts
to speed up the later tiers
but yeah its just a basic shopping mall filter production
hot ginkgo
Even maxed at 780. That's not a lot of you only have 780 for every thing.
pseudo thistle
yeah
but once you build it.... you just go do seomthing else and eventually if you need something you can find it there
hot ginkgo
Have at it. I have central storage that's filled from multiple dedicated production lines. Everything is always running.
pseudo thistle
im terrible at this game
hot ginkgo
We all started somewhere. My early stuff was a complete shitshow. Now I've got my preferred style down and things usualy look half way decent.
It took me 150 some hours before I really got a good jdea how I wanted to build.
pseudo thistle
OH so that cool little car can transport 1 stack right? anyone make a factory that only uses those fucked up mini cars?
just put the factoryies on the outside edge of a giant bumper cars arena and just.... see if anything gets made
hot ginkgo
Someone did yeah. Practical? No. Hilarious? Hell yeah.
pseudo thistle
aparently vehicles teleport if your far enough away
steady jolt
yeah, in order for the game to run optimally, when you are a certain distance away, belts, vehicles, machines, etc. dont run at 60 fps
because of that, some stuff will basically teleport. Vehicles will never mess up their paths if you are far enough away. For example: if 2 vehicles intersect in their paths, they would not collide if you are far away
pseudo thistle
is there a certain number of end product/min you aim for when building a plant?
hot ginkgo
20-30 depending in the product.
Concrete is around 100.
Things like super computers 2 machines.
fierce ruin
Why do we make pipes out of copper
Im not expert but im pretty sure steel is not only more structurally sound but easier to produce.
Then we wouldn't have such pathetic flow rates.
signal nimbus
Easier to bend.
We should be making pipes out of PVC aka plastic, but that's why you'd make pipes out of copper instead of steel.
fierce ruin
But copper is so weak... and prob why our flow rate sucks
signal nimbus
Honestly? Yep.
fierce ruin
We need more oil to make plastic
signal nimbus
You can get better flow rates with higher pressure, which you can get with stronger pipes.
fierce ruin
But FICSIT blesses us with pathetic flow rate, not enough plastic, and then more bad flow rate
Bruh turkeys oil pipeline transports more oil than us
Without the need for massive pumps
They just weld internal pumps into the inside of the pipes
I guess FICSIT isn’t very big brain
oblique hollow
Flow Rate is not dependent on how soft your material is. It depends on pipe diameter, smoothness and flow velocity of your liquid mass.
Material is important when considering how much pressure they need to withstand.
The good thing about copper is its corrosion resistant.
You can safely move sulfuric acid through it
Secondly: copper melts at 1085 ° C, most plastics turn soft at 80+ °C and start melting at 200+ ° C.
While PVC is resistant to sulfuric acid, fuel could dissolve it, depending on the additives
wind spade
Flow Rate is not dependent on how soft your material is. It depends on pipe diameter, smoothness and flow velocity of your liquid mass.
Material is important when considering how much pressure they need to withstand.
@oblique hollow iirc stuff like viscosity affects it as well
oblique hollow
Yes
Reynolds Number is what you're thinking of probably
Laminar flow experiences less reduction in average velocity.
Good luck moving Heavy Oil at high speeds without major losses
Which is where Copper Pipes come back into play: if you heat Heavy Oil up, the viscosity reduces. The best way for moving it in pipes would probably be:
- Preheat it
- Transport it inside Copper Pipes that have been thermally insulated on the outside (probably with plastic!)
- If needed, heat the Pipes section up from the outside via Induction heating
glacial hemlock
Sometime, the legislation also controls which pipe material to use
Like porcelain for sewage pipes
Copper is now being replaced by stainless steel
oblique hollow
Fortunately we dont have to worry about country rules and norms here
brittle viper
what
deft lichen
@pulsar stratus I've noticed the "roads" overlay is missing/outdated for the dune desert, is there any way I could help contribute to that (e.g. by lining the paths with beacons)
pulsar stratus
I believe it was send as a transparent PSD but never got updateed
You'll have to ping @crude pike :p
crude pike
@deft lichen An updated roadmap can be found here:
Also I can provide @pulsar stratus with the updated overlay (psd), if he wants to... 😎
pulsar stratus
Oh yes please!
deft lichen
uuu awesome!
sand garnet
make sure you painted some roads that lead off a cliff >:D
deft lichen
there are some roads in this area that should be marked with the thinner line, I can mark them if you wanna
like so
crude pike
@pulsar stratus On the way... 🙂
crude pike
@deft lichen Yeah, I tried to reduce my roads to "real roads". Because of clarity. There are many areas you can go (esp. with the explorer), but many of them aren't roads per se. And that's the case with the dune desert. Dunes and rocks...
deft lichen
the one I marked is a very flat road, but I understand that decision
there are a few minor things that could be adjusted too, if you want me to list them
crude pike
I did send the psd to Anthor. If you would like to improve the roads on his map, get in contact with him. He can send you my road layer. You have the permission to make it better. 🙂
wispy cradle
I did not know about a map of roads.
I'm thinking about to transport almost everything by roads
wispy cradle
I know it, but if you build a road or rail on that, the path would be more natural.
dusky dust
yeah, that map was quite helpful in building out my passenger rail network. :)
wispy cradle
@crude pike , does a train fit the underground paths?
crude pike
Most of them yes.
dusky dust
Though I bullishly built through the red bamboo area regardless. :D Honestly didn't require much pruning at all, though there's definitely nothing like a natural road in there
crude pike
@wispy cradle actually... all of them.
wispy cradle
Nice. Thanks Roge.
I was about to connect 2 first 2 factories , But I did not want just to create jus a floating path between them.
shy mason
yeah, helps out plenty pre coal when you're making every kilowatt count
bleak coral
Good post coal too so that you're not having stuff turn on and off when you don't need a machine at 100%
silent mortar
I must gird the entire sky in platforms so all my disparate bases connect to eachother instead of being half or quarter foundations off.
pseudo thistle
Yeahhhh
fierce ruin
i just discovered underclocking
@pseudo thistle what is that?
empty hemlock
once you unlock overclocking you also can underclock machines. which doesn't cost any powershards and is very useful early game when you are still on bio power to run more machines as underclocking makes them more power efficent
fierce ruin
but how to underclock, literally all my power structures have triple overclock shards in
hot ginkgo
Thats just a waste of shards. Nothing is gained besides using less space. And theirs so much space in the game.
fierce ruin
@hot ginkgo im just worried about losing power
empty hemlock
Then build more power buildings
has the exact same effect except you don't lose 3 power shards for no reason
bleak coral
Overclocking is the exact opposite thing you do if you're worried about power, overclocking makes power consumption go up faster than production
empty hemlock
not for generators
those just scale linearly so you use shard for no change in numbers that a second building wouldn't already give you
stone vigil
I remember thinking that's not quite true, I think there's a penalty for overclocking?
I remember trying to use shards while unlocking hard drives and having to use more than expected
Yeah, there's exponential scaling for over/under-clocking generators
stone vigil
Oh, the fuel efficiency sure, but the power capacity is what scales
empty hemlock
at 250% you have i think 202% of the capacity. just build a second generator. you are not wasting 3 shards
stone vigil
Right, and there's no real point to building excess generators at lower clock speed
Even though 2x50% generators is more capacity than 1x100%, because the burn rate also adjusts (which is good game design), otherwise people would want to build a ton of biomass generators so they wouldn't have to collect as many leaves
empty hemlock
The conversation went:
Underclocking buildings is good
all i've done with clockspeed is power buildings
don't do that, it's a waste of shards.
Noone talked about underclocking power buildings
stone vigil
Yeah, I misinterpreted and then just started expanding, I thought it was a capacity issue not efficiency
To be fair HKB did mention underclocking and power buildings in the same sentence
wind spade
Neither burn rate or fuel efficiency is adjusted. Only power output is changed
bleak coral
Also I misunderstood you were talking about power buildings
I thought he was overclocking all his buildings
wind spade
You'll still get 300MJ from each coal no matter how under/overclocked is your generator
stone vigil
Oh, this is a semi-relevant time to bring this up because it doesn't seem to be common knowledge, I did some math, and if your goal is to use the minimum number of production buildings without overclocking, but you don't need full use of all of them (IE, you need 3.6 assemblers worth of X), it's always more power efficient to underclock all of the machines equally (in this example to 90%) as opposed to having 3x100% and 1x60%, which I've seen more commonly
bleak coral
Oh we know that, we're just too lazy to do it
Especially when that number is like 46.7
wind spade
Yeah, it's just that once you start doing 50 buildings, you are tooblazy to change every one of them
bleak coral
If I could copy-paste a building's settings I might do that
stone vigil
Yeah, it's really only significant with small numbers of machines and like <.5 on the last one
or if you do something modular and do like 2.5 water extractors
oblique hollow
Shutoff valve, i think
and of course pump mk 2, height seems to be 10 walls, so 40 m head lift
see? at the end of the video, there was ANOTHER pipe mechanism
the weird thing: at all points in the video, the Flow Indicators were at max size
but then how could the mk1 pipes, with 300m³/min max, fill out the (possibly) 600m³/min Mk 2 pipes
wind spade
maybe it goes down instead of up?
oblique hollow
no, the black/yellow striped side is up, always
wind spade
or rather was
olive latch
maybe the new pumps have a greater force requiring less?
oblique hollow
and the Mk 1 pumps at the beginning had their pistons face up too
wind spade
may be changed 🤔
glacial hemlock
less power, like, only 3MW for 40 meters lift?
pseudo thistle
@fierce ruin the goal of underclocking is to use a not so valuble resource (space) to save on power, as you can create factories that produce exactly the same amount of resources as a normal factory or an overclocked factory but using a fraction of the power, overclocking uses exponentially more power, and underclocking uses exponentially less, so you can take a 100MW factory and make it cost 10MW but produce the same amount of resources just by having more but underclocked factories
olive latch
I wonder if pumps mk2 will be power shardable
oblique hollow
or the mk 1s. but that would defeat the purpose of the mk 2s
glacial hemlock
you could just build more
oblique hollow
Unless pressure still doesnt stack
pseudo thistle
always better to just build more
glacial hemlock
if it can be overclocked, it can be underclocked. Yeah low-power pumps!
oblique hollow
also @wind spade have you forgot that the flow indicator rings expand in the direction of flow?
pseudo thistle
60 factories underclocked to produce 1 per minuite costs less power than 1 factory clocked to produce 60 a minuite
i love underclocking
glacial hemlock
you need to own a very beefy PC though
since there will be 60 x the buildings running
pseudo thistle
its futureproofing, dont need to rebuild a factory if you did the math and underclock it for t1 belts, then just upgrade an ramp up their power usage as you gain the upgrades
wind spade
also @wind spade have you forgot that the flow indicator rings expand in the direction of flow?
@oblique hollow you act like I actually play the game and know how it behaves 😛
oblique hollow
oh what a fool i am
bleak coral
on the mk1 > mk2 pipes: they could've filled it from the top-down and then placed the pumps for the video
oblique hollow
pumps still move liquid
glacial hemlock
@wind spade <- creates super powerful tools about everything in the game.
Also greeny: never played the game.
oblique hollow
no wait, i checked the video again ,all is fine, the pipe rings dont expand as much on the mk 2
olive latch
just double checked the pipes flow upward
oblique hollow
i forgot that the width of the flow indicator shows how full the pipe is
glacial hemlock
@oblique hollow because it is only using a portion of the capacity of the max flow, that's why the rings don't expand as much.
oblique hollow
yea, i forgot about ring size and only considered the indicator ring distance
a shutoff valve, probably
bleak coral
an indicator of where to place the next pump, it's in the same spot all the other pumps were
signal nimbus
@winged birch I happen to know the area you put those plants in. There's one more average coal node near the others for a total of 240 that could fill another 4 generators.
sand garnet
@wind spade dont forget to update your calculator for the mk2 pipes next week when we know their limits 🙂
dull bolt
I want it to be updated 1 second before the real patch is out... 😛
glacial hemlock
RIP all coal generator tutorial.
hot ginkgo
I think the basic 3:8 coal gen is still valid. I bet by the time you're rocking mk2 liquid stuff you'll be well into tiers 5, 6, or even 7.
signal sky
yea, we have no idea what mk2 pipes will take to build
sand garnet
by the time you have coal gens, its unlikely you'll have mk2 pipes so yeah
my assumption is mk2 pipes will be around oil tech
to fully utilize the oil extractors
hot ginkgo
Pure iron and other similar recipes just become a lot more attractive.
signal sky
30 refineries from one pipe, 2 and a bit pure iron nodes with OC'd mk2 miners
hot ginkgo
Some of the coated basic parts recipes might be a good choice as well now. Coated plates/cables and such.
So many possibilities.
signal sky
2400/m more oil available now, p sweet
bleak coral
Oh yeah that's gonna change the weighted resource cost
sand garnet
yeah but i dont think by much tbh
although it might affect stuff like circuit boards and computers
signal nimbus
RIP Kib's nuclear plant.
foggy forge
may i ask some help with setting up an efficent alluminium plant?
foggy forge
i have now active 18 rubber refineries and 27 plastic refineries, that means i have (18x20) 360lpm + (27x10) 270lpm, for a total of 630lpm of oil residue
630/40 to create petroleum coke i need at least 16 refineries to burn all the heavy oil
but that also means i get something near 1920 ppm of petroleum coke
isnt that a little too much?
never tried this calculator
silent mortar
Oil gets a bit silly. You can run 148 fuel refineries at full blast off of one oil node through alt recipes.
hot ginkgo
22GW!
foggy forge
im running that oil plant with 4 nodes at 300lpm
so i should just use what i need and sink the rest?
silent mortar
There is an alt recipe for steel that uses coke instead of coal, or more coal generators to burn it, but yeah. Sink the overflow so your plant doesn't just randomly stop and seize up.
foggy forge
i can't use coke on coal generators, right?
silent mortar
You can use coke, coal, and compacted coal on regular coal generators. They all produce the same energy per second, but it takes 25 coke per minute per plant, as opposed to 15 regular coal per minute, or 7.14 compacted coal.
foggy forge
so i can sink it or produce power
dusky dust
If you use it for power, just make sure that you've got a steady supply that won't dry up due to production-line bottlenecks. :)
Otherwise you won't be able to trust your power readings
foggy forge
that's the problem
my problem now is that i have that 1920lpm of heavy oil to burn somehow
dusky dust
It's not hard to do so, really, you've just got to make sure to overflow all your oil products so that the machines making it are guaranteed to run at the rates you've set it up for
Just an extra step of logistics
dull linden
i mean you can always turn the heavy oil into regular oil
winged birch
@winged birch I happen to know the area you put those plants in. There's one more average coal node near the others for a total of 240 that could fill another 4 generators.
@signal nimbus
I'm only using 2 of them at 120 (240total.) I would use more but I only have MRk 3 Convayers and I want to keep it to one line. I'll soon be upgrading it though as it seems that the system can hadle more.
foggy forge
for now i have only 2 recipes that use heavy oil residue, and it's petroleum coke and residual fuel
i didn't expect to have so much, so my power plant runs on normal fuel
signal nimbus
@winged birch Keeping it to one line, I can respect that. Neatness is important. Btw, if you build vertically to expand it, you'll end up needing 10 wall segments up to get above the smoke stacks.
foggy forge
i can try converting it to residual fuel, then sink the production overflow to make all the refineries work and produce heavy oil, doing that i can divide by 2 the production of coke, and sink the overflow while using it for aluminium
winged birch
Thanks @signal nimbus, I will keep that in mind.
icy pumice
can someone help me with a perfect modular frame layout (the normal ones)? my iron ore is 120 per minute
bleak coral
use one of the calculators in the pins, I prefer https://www.satisfactorytools.com/
on that one at least, you can set the iron it's able to use at 120 and ask it to maximize
and can turn on all the alt recipes you have, if any
icy pumice
okay yt 🙂
bleak coral
it solves for most items on maximize, and least amount of resources to use on items/min
icy pumice
yeah I did it now I have to build it with all numbers right itll be a fun time... not lol
hot ginkgo
That ain't bad.
icy pumice
have to split it to 52.5 iron per minute xd
hot ginkgo
Nah. Just manifold it.
bleak coral
oh, you need to learn about manifolds: https://satisfactory.gamepedia.com/Manifold
hot ginkgo
The machines only take what they need. The rest will simple back up and flow where it can.
You can't over supply a machine in this game.
bleak coral
can you underclock machines yet?
icy pumice
yes, but I quickly have to make a plan for my question
wait so If I understand manifolds correctly I can just use v2 to get 15 items / min on each?
my art skills are insane
fierce ruin
Yes, assuming the machines use 15
icy pumice
lets go rebuilding my complete factory lol
fierce ruin
And it takes a while for the first machines to fill up and send their overflow to the last.
foggy forge
how do i do a one way valve on pipes?
icy pumice
didnt know that before xd
fierce ruin
@foggy forge pumps, and they don't need to be powered for that.
ripe sigil
Yeah with 4 only 6,25% of the V2 resources will go down the 4th machine
Until the first gets filled
and then the second
and so on and so on
icy pumice
ohhh right its simple math
foggy forge
they act as a one way, so i can be sure of that?
icy pumice
lol
bleak coral
@icy pumice hook up and power stuff while you build, and then one section can fill while you work on the next
icy pumice
okay tysm for ur help all 🙂
neat light
@foggy forge yes a pump is a one way valve, even unpowered it will behave like this
foggy forge
thanks
wispy cradle
@icy pumice , you can have a floor for plates and other for rods, split the source and send 1 branch for each floor. After the rods have full input, and the belt too (before the split), the split will occur in the right proportion you see in the calculator.
for a mk2 input belt.
icy pumice
omg my modular frame factory is finished
@icy pumice , you can have a floor for plates and other for rods, split the source and send 1 branch for each floor. After the rods have full input, and the belt too (before the split), the split will occur in the right proportion you see in the calculator.
@wispy cradle yeah I did it like this
now Its filling up
void coral
glacial hemlock
But why? (Jontron voice)
sturdy stump
The math for making aluminium from 480 bauxite/min
onyx lintel
if you have the alternate for aluminum scrap, you can squeeze another 15 or so alclad per min
sturdy stump
I don’t have it yet but I will redo it with the best alternates
I haven’t built it yet
glacial hemlock
I am amazed by how much you wrote on such small papers
signal nimbus
So... at this point I've done three playthroughs, all fails that I lost interest in.
#1: Just learned the basics and why you should have foundations.
#2: Spread things out too much and the running around sucked.
#3: Went for WAY too big of a megabase, and had trouble advancing through the tiers fast enough.
So... I'm gonna be trying #4. Here goes nothing, and hopefully my noob mistakes pay off this time.
idle mist
glacial hemlock
Graph looked neat. Resource wise, there are margins for improvements
@signal nimbus yeah gratz for you. I first playthrough stopped at coal and 2nd stopped at oil. My 3rd is the first to complete all milestones. (Back then each hard drive got their milestone)
I disagree with foundations though. You can go big even without them, just very difficult
gleaming marten
That sounds like masochism
glacial hemlock
I can go without them at least until tier 5.
signal nimbus
I... yeah, my OCD does NOT allow that.
onyx lintel
ooof no way I could do coal without
gleaming marten
the worst challenge run: nuclear power but you can't place a single foundation in the world
fierce ruin
would it be bad to reroute my friends trains to unload into my stations and then reroute other trains to bring nuclear waste...
onyx lintel
i need an 8-man chainsaw team for that boss
fierce ruin
I just trying to think of a mathy way to do it
frosty owl
i need an 8-man chainsaw team for that boss
@onyx lintel how about a 1-man Nobelisk Army?
swift talon
Once i discovered i can clear the foliage with explosives things were never the same
ionic thunder
Hey guys, quick question on how you make factories :
1)aim at X resource/min, and decompose it in elementary resources (I want 10 stator/min, so i’ll need to provide this factory with X iron)
Or 2) have a central belt from which you take elementary resources, and output refined goods (there are 500 iron ore/min coming on the main belt, so i should split it into 200 screws/min+200 plates/min, then split those into reinforced plates and rotors and so on)
3) or something else ?
This is a question I can’t find a good answer to, and this keeps me from fully going into the game (and experimenting both would be way too long)
Hope my question is understandable 😅
bleak coral
The first, alternative recipes gained through hard drives makes the second undesirable
neat light
Do whatever feels right, realize you will probably fuck up, be ready to dismantle and rebuild everything. I know this doesnt work for everyone, but seems pretty normal for this game
dense cobalt
Option (2) is general considered bad practice here (compered to factorio), but option (1) is not the only other way to do things, and I would recommend that you to experiment to find how you want to play the game
bleak coral
Belt bandwidth makes option 2 really unwieldy, so I'd only do it if you think it sounds fun
It's logistically more work intensive than option 1
hot ginkgo
Never enough explosives. I tend to just go around exploding nature as I travel.
lament saddle
wispy cradle
@ionic thunder , you can do like a mix of 1 and 2. Example: smelt iron ores near nodes and transpot ingots to the places where you need. This way you are still in the style 1.
dull linden
is it better to just smelt the iron there and then or should I build a beeg smelting plant
dusky dust
For some ores you might need to process them in more than one way
digital nacelle
Depends if you've got any of the alts.
dusky dust
Like the vanilla steel recipe requires both iron+coal ores
So you'd need to get those two together somehow
dull linden
im planning on going on a CRUSADE to get a lot of the alts
dusky dust
But smelting right at the miner isn't a terrible idea usually
Caterium especially is more efficient to process near the miner, 'cause you need so much more caterium ore to get an ingot out of it
digital nacelle
I'll count the belts needed to decide which way. Normal receipes, typically at the miners. However, with the alts where you can get a higher output than you put in, so you'll need multiple belts for the ingots vs one for the ore.
dusky dust
Ah, I suppose, yeah
Though all the Pure alts introduce that water dependency, so you might be best off belting your ore near water, and then belting the results away. Or something
logistics, itellya
dull linden
i mean i doubt ill need like 140k iron a minute
where I am now i think just the regular iron will be fine
wispy cradle
@dusky dust , if you are already smelting near node, and decide to go to pure recipe. Could you transport water to node?
dusky dust
You could, sure, though the logistics of fluid transport are a lot harder
You're likely to be burning extra energy to either pump or package it, to get it there
I mean, you do you, of course. :) I pig-headedly piped oil like 2km from its source to my main base rather than process onsite, so I'm not exactly qualified to recommend one way or the other. :P
dull linden
so it sounds like i wanna make a big off shore plant if i want to do the pure recipe
dusky dust
But it turns out i was able to do it with just one pump per line, so not a lot of power wastage. Just ugly pipes down the beach
Having an ocean right there definitely makes the Pure alts easier
wispy cradle
I was thinking about it because packing/unpacking will become cheaper in next update
ionic thunder
@ionic thunder , you can do like a mix of 1 and 2. Example: smelt iron ores near nodes and transpot ingots to the places where you need. This way you are still in the style 1.
@wispy cradle alternate recipes and foundries make it less productive to do so imo
obsidian sluice
one consideration is the ratio of inputs to outputs? for example, I always produce quickwire using fused quickwire on site
45 ingots produce 90 quickwire, so it's usually more efficient imo to transport ingots instead of quickwire
wispy cradle
but its is better transport ingots than ores.
obsidian sluice
oh definitely! I process my ore on-site, and I transport them around via trains
wispy cradle
The only recipe I saw that produces more item from ores is Copper Alloy Ingot.
All others produce less.
and for steel, you can use Solid steel later.
obsidian sluice
if I'm not wrong, pure ingots can produce more than their inputs?
wispy cradle
I wasn't thinking about pure. Because you need to transport ores to water anyway.
bleak coral
and it applies to anything you can do onsite and then move to another factory that lowers ppm
wispy cradle
In the pure case, I think you will transport the ingots anyway because you won't just build your factory near water
bleak coral
that is not really the same as a BUS though, where you have everything in one giant conveyer stack/mass that you pull off of and put back on
wind spade
but its is better transport ingots than ores.
@wispy cradle not true, you usually have more ingots than ores
and yeah, why not build factory near water?
bleak coral
maybe he played subnautica and it scarred him 😆
young rover
Only caterium is better Ingot then ore ... all the rest ore is less then the ingot
pseudo thistle
im having alot of trouble calculating underclocking power comsumption
i feel like thers a potential to break power consumption by underclocking low enough
is 1% the lower bound?
bleak coral
yeah, and no decimals only whole numbers
pseudo thistle
does power consumption round at some point?
would .00016 just round to .01 or .001?
bleak coral
I don't know
pseudo thistle
im trying to figure out just how much underclocking an entire production line to 1% and scaling upwards in number of factory parts can go
bleak coral
also, yes, technically if you run everything at 1% that is the most power efficient thing to do, but do you really want to build thousands or tens of thousands of buildings for every step in a factory
bleak coral
gonna have to do calculations yourself then, cause all the calculators either solve for max ppm from restricted resources or minimum resources from a desired ppm
none solve for minimum power as far as I know
pseudo thistle
XD nobodys trying to produce fromt he least possable amount of power XD
bleak coral
not really, there's lots of available power in the game
it's only a potential bottleneck in theoretical 100% resource usage, and I think the problem that's trying to be solved there is to not tie up too many resources in power not make sure there's enough left over
young rover
I was not producing nuclear waste fast enough ... so I overclocked as much as I could and made like 100 trains running
I wanna produce as many barrels as I can to waste this world
hushed moon
Ficsit does not advise wasting land
young rover
I am a rebel
glacial hemlock
The most power you can use is around 0.5TW, but up to 1.18 TW can be generated
young rover
You can have billions of train to consume more 🤣
bleak coral
where'd you get the 0.5TW? I didn't think there was upper limit beside what you could physically fit on the map
glacial hemlock
By using up all the resources and create the most of everything. Yeah it is 0.5
stone vigil
Uh, I got like .63 using the guy who posted linear modeling's equipment to max resource sink points
I'm kinda curious what the extra oil will make more optimal in order to get more points
wind spade
does power consumption round at some point?
@pseudo thistle not ingame, only to display to user, but game uses the non-rounded values
dull linden
do machines use power even when they aren't doing anything?
silent mortar
But their initialization takes a little bit of draw over what they normally use, so when you grab a pile of rods from storage and your entire iron foundry tries to boot up.... fun times.
hot ginkgo
Set smart splitters woth overflow and sink once the bin is full. Then all machines keep running.
uncut solstice
- Belts should improve performance (over trucks and trains), correct?
- Building foundations over belts improve performance, but also increase save time, correct?
- Removing foliage improves performance, but increases save time, correct?
steady crypt
- Trucks should improve performance for very long distances. Once a route is set, I believe the truck simply teleports between the nodes when it's out of the render range. (That's what I've seen my do in the distance)
- Making it to where you can't see the belts will help in that your GPU won't have to render more objects, will probably increase save time by a bit.
- Idk about the foliage, but that would make sense to me. You won't have to render the tree, but I wouldn't think it would affect the save time much.
- How long does it take your game to save? Mine saves in almost no time at all.
uncut solstice
3-6 sec lately it seems, annoying for auto save, but I don't want to turn it off
re 1) it shouldn't have to render belts at all though? or would it teleport to supports?
steady crypt
I believe it still renders the items on the belts. It might jump a little, but that's a lot of things for both your GPU and CPU to keep track of, especially as you get faster belts
onyx lintel
3-6 sec lately it seems, annoying for auto save, but I don't want to turn it off
@uncut solstice wait til its closer to 10-15 seconds, and i've heard of people even longer than that
uncut solstice
right, thats precisely what I am trying to avoic
glacial hemlock
My 40 turbomotor factory takes about 20 to 30 seconds to load, I have Rx5700 XT and 5930k
and my whole PC is on SSD M.2
mighty wave
hi, ineed help with spliting efficiency, how do i split 12 smelters into 9 foundrys and is there a tool i can use online for this , thanks
glacial hemlock
@mighty wave you can think of merging 4 into 3, then repeat 3 times
meager anvil
I never like manifolds because if the input is not completely saturated, the machines at the end get resource starved.
I had a problem early on with my steel ingot production, where I had 4 smelters. I just got coal going and coming in, desperate to get off of bio fuel too, I setup a manifold and found the smelters at the front got too much, and smelters at the end got too little. Setting up a tree of fair splitters evened out the distribution better.
hot ginkgo
Then something wasn't set up right. I have 6 manifolds that run 780 worth of iron smelters. Nothing is starved. Because the machines at the front back up.
Something very very important to keep in mind.
You can not over feed a machine. They will only take what they need. Nothing more.
The rest will always back up.
mighty wave
4 into 3 helped a lot, but im was trying towork it out correctly soo im not relying on the overflow method as i always have issues with it if the input isnt high enouhg
hot ginkgo
If the input is exact you'll always have issues.
500/min worth of machines needs that much worth of input.
meager anvil
@hot ginkgo I think I setup a bleed of coal to a 2nd series of coal generators at a strange place really close to the smelters though. I think I prefer an even distribution over greedy distribution of manifold.
hot ginkgo
And that's perfectly fine. Many people prefer one or the other.
I like manifolds because they're quick and easy. With my limited play time, id prefer to just get the system running.
But just like a load balanced set up. I'd you sont supply enough. You still will have machines starved.
sand garnet
my preference for them is just because im an idiot and they're idiot-proof lol
easier/ less time consuming to set up and figure out
hot ginkgo
We call it lazy building.
sand garnet
less error-prone and if there is an error, its easier to fix because each part of the setup is identical
i dont want to think when I play the game, and manifolds allow that 😛
wind spade
I never like manifolds because if the input is not completely saturated, the machines at the end get resource starved.
@meager anvil the same issue is for balancers tho, if input is not completely saturated, then all machines are resource starved
glacial hemlock
Yeah, when the input is insufficient, new resource nodes should be explored instead of staying there and do the balancing
fierce ruin
im boared
bleak coral
I also like manifolds cause they handle arbitrary inputs/outputs, load balanced can only handle nice splits.
fierce ruin
im really upset i cant piss off a cliff
i mean come on
you cant tell me you arnt tempted
oblique hollow
Sit on it to feel like poop
spare wagon
meager anvil
@wind spade I think that assumes a stable input. My coal input was stable for other reasons, like preferring to use coal for coal generation using upstream splitters. I think my preference for a balancer was more due to my specific factory setup, which was likely not the best.
hot ginkgo
Generators i feel are a bit different due to them throttling resource use. You're basically guaranteed to be backed up.
glacial hemlock
you could use separate coal nodes for different purposes.
dull linden
I am very angry at how hard it is to make a lot of reinforced iron plates
onyx lintel
i know, i generally skip from mk.1 to mk.3 belts
obsidian sluice
imo Mk 2 exists to remind you that you should upgrade ASAP
procrastination's fine and all, but once you upgrade, you rarely want to go back
hot ginkgo
Just wait till mk4. Those are just as bad, if not worse then mk2 materials.
onyx lintel
yea eww EIB
hot ginkgo
Every other belt materials is slow as hell. So it stands to reason then if/when we get mk6 belts, they'll also be slow as hell.
worthy copper
heatsinks 
fierce ruin
mk 4 aren't that bad, by the time you get there you should have things automated properly.
hot ginkgo
I'm just talking about production rates per machine.
Steel beams are quick. Encased beams are not.
Alaclad sheets are pretty quick. Ignoring the massive support equipment.
fierce ruin
If you need them right now you can build them by hand, if not they add up.
I mean, sure mk 5 is better in every way.
But I've built km long mk 4 belts across (a large part of) the map before I got to alclad.
signal sky
mk4 belts arent that bad tbh
just have 5 double boxes of EIB at all time and you'll never use enough to deplete it completely
ebon basin
Should i make a long pipe system or fluid train
wind spade
neither. Build factory where fluids are
ebon basin
o
fierce ruin
it depend on how long of a pipe, how much you have to climb... but usually if you can manage it's better to avoid to move too much liquid and focus and moving the rest to the liquid. if you really want to move, i would usually prefer pipe to train (especially for water, often you can find water not too far)
glacial hemlock
@dull linden you mean you don't know how to setup reinforced iron plate production lines?
nocturne gate
no
wispy cradle
WTF!
glacial hemlock
<@&387163995947270144>
onyx lintel
public holiday tomorrow, so gonna build this to get things rolling towards tier 5-6
keen condor
How many fuel generators (with 3 power shards) can one refinery (with 3 power shards) fuel at max?
onyx lintel
i know 300 crude oil can fuel 148 turbo fuel gens with everything at 100% (provided you can get a belt each of sulfur and coal)
wind spade
How many fuel generators (with 3 power shards) can one refinery (with 3 power shards) fuel at max?
@keen condor it's better not to overclock stuff.
Anyway, which recipe in the refinery?
glacial hemlock
Overclocked generators generally run at 2.02x speed, so it would support 148 / 2.02
wind spade
Well 2.02 is rounded value, so it would be slightly different value
glacial hemlock
Yeah. 148 itself is probably another rounded number
wind spade
Also he still didn't say which recipe he's using
glacial hemlock
Well for nuclear it would be 2 (horray for nuclear overclockers)
We assume he will use the most efficient recipes
wind spade
For what? Fuel? Turbofuel? Biofuel?
glacial hemlock
Yeah, his question is not specific
keen condor
@keen condor it's better not to overclock stuff.
Anyway, which recipe in the refinery?
@wind spade the standard liquid fuel recipe (sorry my wording didn't suggest it was just "fuel")
ionic thunder
@keen condor it's better not to overclock stuff.
Anyway, which recipe in the refinery?
@wind spade why is it better not to overclock ?
wind spade
@ionic thunder overclocking refineries/manufacturers/etc. makes them use way more power than if you'd just built more. Overclocking generators doesn't lose you any power, but they don't work at 250%, only at roughly 202% (and that also makes the numbers not being so nice anymore)
sand garnet
same as the first section of buildings greeny referred to
wind spade
miners are same as buildings, although it's a bit more justifiable to overclock miners, as you're limited by amount of nodes
ionic thunder
as you're limited by amount of nodes
@wind spade
Hence the question
I’d rather overclock a miner than have to deal with tractors or what
wind spade
well yeah vehicles suck, trains are much better
but as I said - overclocking miners is fine-ish
but for other buildings you generally want to avoid overclocking unless you know what you're doing, have enough power and are fine with wasting that power
white parcel
sometimes you are better of underclocking pog to make it easier to split/merge etc
signal nimbus
Underclocking machines does work out pretty well in a lot of situations. It makes them more power efficient and doesn't make them spike up in energy use as much/often if they're resource-starved.
frosty owl
It's also the only way to get 100% efficiency out of a Miner MK3 on a pure node. Just saying 🙄
By the way, which scenario you guys think would be easier to control with the SMALLER NUMBER OF CONVEYORS? Imagine refining iron to get 720 ingots and 5 ore as leftover
A) merge the ore with the ingots and split it when needed (as to merge with other excess to be used)
B) Merge the ore with the excess from other buildings and send it to where needed
oblique hollow
@alpine forge that could either be your machines shutting off or not producing at the same time. if they all are running at the same time and not idling, then i can offer this circuit:
if you raise the output pipe 1 or 2 meters into the air first, that could improve the output of this circuit
glacial hemlock
8MW though
oblique hollow
meh, you should have like 100 mw anyway. if that doesnt help i can think of something else
its just my go-to thing
glacial hemlock
@frosty owl don't mix items, merge the leftovers with other leftovers of the same type.
alpine forge
This is the setup I'm using
glacial hemlock
looks like an art.
imo all refineries already come with 50 input and output buffers so I see no reason to use further buffers, other than train-related setups.
alpine forge
It's the decoration of my building, I want it to be moving so it looks nice (I hope XD)
glacial hemlock
@alpine forge btw you can remove your pump there
refineries output at 11 meters head lift so you just need to slightly lower down your vertical pipe
alpine forge
It didn't work at first so I had to put it there, but maybe now it's working it isn't useful anymore
frosty owl
@frosty owl don't mix items, merge the leftovers with other leftovers of the same type.
@glacial hemlock eh? Why not?
Mixed belts are so nice to see
glacial hemlock
@frosty owl that's great idea.
alpine forge
The final system is hight than this setup
oblique hollow
@glacial hemlock if you remove the pump you need to wait for the buffer to fill completely or else the refineries cant push through
glacial hemlock
@oblique hollow that's why I asked him to remove the buffers first 😛
alpine forge
This is the system I'm trying to get working
glacial hemlock
the 8-shaped pipes near the corner is satisfying to watch.
oblique hollow
so the pipes are just meandering through the walls
frosty owl
@frosty owl that's great idea.
@glacial hemlock am I sensing some sarcasm? 🤔
I just figured I preferred mixes belts over pure ones once I got into manufacturing inputs (for which I use mixed belts)
alpine forge
so the pipes are just meandering through the walls
@oblique hollow going inside the factory connected to the other pipes that are outside, if that sounds logic
frosty owl
It's the decoration of my building, I want it to be moving so it looks nice (I hope XD)
@alpine forge you could use the pipes as "flow indicators" to know how other pipes inside the buildings are doing 🤔
glacial hemlock
@frosty owl your idea is completely fine if you have mods that help you to handle the sushi belts. Else it is just same as mixing belt without smart splitter / signals in factorio -- it can never be worse
alpine forge
@alpine forge you could use the pipes as "flow indicators" to know how other pipes inside the buildings are doing 🤔
@frosty owl oeh, good one
frosty owl
@frosty owl your idea is completely fine if you have mods that help you to handle the sushi belts. Else it is just same as mixing belt without smart splitter / signals in factorio -- it can never be worse
@glacial hemlock I didn't play factorio, nor am I using mods. Is there anything I particular that makes it bad? I didn't have any issue other then throughput and (obviously) figuring out the proper splitting
glacial hemlock
the issue lies in the keyword 'proper splitting'. Items' flow rate can fluctuate s lot in satisfactory, any backlog can mess up the entire system.
that's why sushi belt (mixed belts) is greatly not recommended in vanilla game
overflow smart splitter can control the issue by some degree, provided you burn all excess items in the sink.
bleak coral
If you can keep everything moving mixed belts are fine, but if the belt dead ends somewhere you risk different items blocking where another item needs to go
frosty owl
the issue lies in the keyword 'proper splitting'. Items' flow rate can fluctuate s lot in satisfactory, any backlog can mess up the entire system.
@glacial hemlock Ohhh, ok!
I feared it might had something to do with smart splitters taking too much CPU or something and got worried...
Yeah, those issue I had to work with when setting up the automatic storage system anyway (and liked figuring it out) so I thought why no be ambitious and actually try make a full logistic system like this 🤔
But I agree, it's quite complex to nail and can cause huge headaches
bleak coral
Why do have 5 extra ore per minute anyway? Why not just slow the ore down?
frosty owl
If you can keep everything moving mixed belts are fine, but if the belt dead ends somewhere you risk different items blocking where another item needs to go
@bleak coral If I think I haven't calculated well enough, I usually just split any possible overflow on an extra belt. That solves the issue easily and lazily
glacial hemlock
I am actually looking forward to signals in satisfactory, let's say smart storage that allows you to split (functions exactly like smart splitter, but have storage of 24 stacks instead of just 9 items), that way, we can loop mixed belt around, with the storage doing the overflow burning.
wind spade
sushi belts are not recommended even in Factorio
they look cool and can work, but it's just tons of extra work for the same result or even worse result
frosty owl
Why do have 5 extra ore per minute anyway? Why not just slow the ore down?
@bleak coral It's for iron setup. I don't wanna slow the ore because I still want to take as much as possibleand waste as little as possible
If you like math, I'd gladly share the specs of the system for some help to make it better. Right now the best is: 777.6 ore in 2 different buildings. Each building has 12 pure iron refineries at 92%, leaving about 4.6 iron unused
obsidian sluice
there usually isn't a reason to mix items on a belt, because it runs the risk of gumming up the input to a machine?
wind spade
add extra refinery that processes the 4.6 ore
obsidian sluice
but please do share your factory build! maybe it'll help clear things up
frosty owl
add extra refinery that processes the 4.6 ore
@wind spade That's what I combine the ore for (got 4 of these setup so it's 20ish ore total) but don't have space right at the iron refining area
wind spade
or just make one or two refineries work at 93%
frosty owl
there usually isn't a reason to mix items on a belt, because it runs the risk of gumming up the input to a machine?
@obsidian sluice but you use less belts overall :3
wind spade
I'd have to do the math to work it out how much you need to add
belts do not cost power, so it doesn't matter that you use more belts
frosty owl
but please do share your factory build! maybe it'll help clear things up
@obsidian sluice screenshots are fine for that, right?
Imma log in in a few minutes anyway
wind spade
or here, that also works
frosty owl
Thanks, I'll share some when in game. It should be clear that way :)
or just make one or two refineries work at 93%
@wind spade I might just be wanting too much at this point... But that would throw off the perfect balancing I did to feed the refineries 🤣
bleak coral
Just set the miner to 161%, that's precisely the amount of ore you need
No extra even
wind spade
first - you don't need perfect balancing, manifolds work nicely
second - even if you leave the balancing there, it would still work as well
obsidian sluice
tbh if you're terribly concerned with efficiency and perfect balancing, you could just set up an overflow sink at every stage of production
bleak coral
Again, you're also just overfeeding it, just overclock to 161% and no higher, your numbers work out that that's precisely as much ore per minute as you need
You can split it however you want afterwards
obsidian sluice
any backing up gets redirected through a smart splitter into an awesome sink, so your factory is perfectly balanced at every stage
on a more meta level, should we come up with an explanation on the ways satisfactory isn't like factorio?
because I get the feeling a ton of players come in trying to construct buses and balancers when they don't need to
bleak coral
3D building means logistics is different, and our belt speeds are relatively lower than facotrios, besides stuff like splitters and inserters being different and not having logistics bots and blueprints
Infinite resources also means we don't have to move stuff once it's been built, and we don't have blueprints so modularity is optional and only ok if you want to just add more later by hand
wind spade
most simplest reason - satisfactory nodes are infinite and fixed speed
so you don't need any balancing, you can easily just use what you have on the belt, without fear that it'll be less or more in the future
bleak coral
As far as I know balancers also fix the two sides of a belt being uneven sometimes problem, and our belts aren't double-sided
frosty owl
because I get the feeling a ton of players come in trying to construct buses and balancers when they don't need to
@obsidian sluice For reference, I haven't played Factorio (I'm not answering the other pints now due to lack of time)
obsidian sluice
ahhhh don't worry! this isn't targeted against you
we do get quite a lot of people coming in from factorio, and I kinda never understood why?
because I didn't play factorio too
I kinda just bought the game and messed around til I got to T5/6 before joining the discord
oblique hollow
i cant believe i havent noticed this before:
in the teaser trailer, the Mk1 pumps have had their power connectors moved. looks like they are on the front side of the pump now, somewhere near the ficsit logo
frosty owl
No extra even
@bleak coral But that'd mean less coupons
As a side note, if I gather all the extra from that particular production area I can have about enough to power a refilling iron-parts storage area while leaving all main productions untouched. Quite handy imo
tbh if you're terribly concerned with efficiency and perfect balancing, you could just set up an overflow sink at every stage of production
@obsidian sluice That was my first thought, I just have a hard time fitting in so many so I decided to move to a (maybe) smarter but more complex approach. I'm building in the forest so spaces are often quite tight (and belting becomes cumbersome in tight spaces) so I try to keep track of all "loose ends" and make the best use of each one of them
first - you don't need perfect balancing, manifolds work nicely
second - even if you leave the balancing there, it would still work as well
@wind spade I have enough beltspace for balancing so I'm not worried to build compact manifold arrays; also, honestly, I don't like seeing unmoving belts/parts. I prefer to let the belt "spread out" in splitters to be able to see properly how the input is flowing so I use manifold only for the outputs or manifacturers inputs (since the extra in manif. prod. is stuff that still flows to sink/storage so the belt isn't still)
wind spade
still doesn't change my point that even if you have balancers, you can have different building speeds
obsidian sluice
is this the bit of forest with indestructible trees?
wind spade
especially if it's just 1%
glacial hemlock
@obsidian sluice ??
wind spade
you could just set up an overflow sink at every stage of production
only at final stage
muted crypt
tag me in coach, tl;dr me
obsidian sluice
@glacial hemlock what's up?
frosty owl
Manifacturers first floor. 1 belt for caterium, 1 for everything else needed for engines, computers, supcomp, mod frames. Excess and produced products go to next floor on the left
Manifacturers second floor: inputs from floor below at the left, excess+output on the right to sink/storage
Top view of the allu sheets input "sushi belts". Silica/copper/coal coming from the bottom and mixing with the all scraps as soon as the belts empties out enough to feed everything (bauxite input is a standalone). All the excess+produced products go to sink/storage and fit on a mk3 belt
is this the bit of forest with indestructible trees?
@obsidian sluice No, the "normal one"
still doesn't change my point that even if you have balancers, you can have different building speeds
@wind spade Sorry, I don't think I got what you mean. With both manifold and balancing you can achieve 100% efficiency, it's just that balancing achieves that much faster and shows the belts off more as far as I understood
wind spade
sure, my point is that you said "I can't change one refinery to 93% because I have a balancer", which is false. You can change it and it'll still work at 100% efficiency after some delay
frosty owl
Ohhh. Yeah, I see now what you meant and I agree. But that would ruin the whole point of balancing everything out to me
wind spade
well then you have to decide. Either you're gonna use 100% of your miner or you're gonna balance everything and not use 100% of the miner 😛
obsidian sluice
I guess the problem with satisfactory is that the machines rarely form nice ratios? especially if you're trying to build multiple things at a time
the closest I got was turning 810 oil into 1800 turbofuel? the ratios on all my machines at every step (bar one) were perfect integers, but you can't get 810 oil from oil nodes without overclocking/underclocking
frosty owl
well then you have to decide. Either you're gonna use 100% of your miner or you're gonna balance everything and not use 100% of the miner 😛
@wind spade I wanna use the max the miner can take out without going over 780. Which is 777.6 for pure nodes. And the best I could divide that was with 2 sets of 12 ref. I found handy that the excess was little enough to just make use of it without having to build something huge for it and went for it xD
But real talk, I find it a pain when I have to check each machine to know how much one building produces. And having different clocks forces me to do that (unless I write down everything)
wind spade
why not going over tho?