math-and-meta

[glacial geyser]

Needed to edit it a bit

[wind spade]

if it showed you that it can't calculate something while you have that setup (correctly) built, then it's indeed a bug. I beleive there's a way to display most of the setups you may want it to display

or rather - it's an issue of what you put in the tool

[glacial geyser]

I would need to reproduce it. I’ve changed my factory setups so much

It think it was when I was trying to go nuclear

[wind spade]

can be bug ofc, but the only one I know of so far is when you use maximize and input together, then it just breaks and does random stuff

[glacial geyser]

Yeah and that’s the thing I’m not 100% sure if I was just not putting something in correctly. I did double check, reload the page, toggle recipes on and off but couldn’t get it to work

I think it was specifically electromagnetic control rods. I was using the steel rotors alt using copper wire and steel pipe

[wind spade]

yeah it's slightly confusing for new users, I'm always appreciating feedback on how to make it better

I'm not UX expert unfortunately

[glacial geyser]

Ha I know exactly 3 UX people and I’m sure none of them would agree on anything other than research done by the Norman Nielsen group

Yeah I know it was the steel rotor alt because I made a factory making stators and rotors with the same inputs to simplify my factory but it kept trying to shove iron wire down my throat. First it was casted screws for one path to make rotors more traditionally with only a few made the way I wanted to make them, then I had to uncheck casted screws and it flipped to iron wire lol

[loud anvil]

the one thing I'm missing in your tool, greeny, is just plain power consumption reporting as part of the flowchart for the machines your tool has picked, given the recipe selection. that's a super simple thing, but removes uncertainty in terms of: "can I actually run this without it shutting down, with my current power setup?"

[glacial geyser]

I eventually found through trial and error that I had to be extremely specific in exactly which alt I wanted to use and deselect all other recipes including the base ones

[wind spade]

Ha I know exactly 3 UX people and I’m sure none of them would agree on anything other than research done by the Norman Nielsen group
@glacial geyser the issue is that you need to get UX people that also know SF (and know A LOT of it)

[loud anvil]

the other side of that coin is, that with power consumption reporting, it will also hint towards how much power production needs to be upgraded

[wind spade]

and yeah, if you want it to exactly show the setup you have in mind, you usually need to only select the recipes you want and deselect the basic ones

[glacial geyser]

Which kinds of defeats mypurpose in using the tool is to get a high level view of what my factory could look like. I’ve mostly resorted to just build and Wing- it with my gut lol

[wind spade]

so what's your idea of the tool to do?

[patent bough]

So i haven't looked at the numbers since before pipes were added and literally everything got refactored and rebalanced; is it still more efficient to build a screw-free factory even after all the recipe changes?

[wind spade]

I beleive there are some decent recipes that use screws, so it's no longer all the way, but for example stitched iron plates are still the best imo

[patent bough]

first thing i noticed was that screws are no longer immediately bottlenecked by belts.

(at 100% production in a single machine that is)

[wind spade]

by mk1 belt you mean I guess

[hot ginkgo]

Early on I dont think screws are the worst thing in the world. But 10 HMF need 1900 screws/min without alts. Thats awful.

[wind spade]

well you want to do Heavy Encased Frame anyway

with Heavy Encased Frame alt

with normal recipe

savings on all resources

[hot ginkgo]

@patent bough this is just a couple reasons why the no screw alts are incredibly useful latter on.

[patent bough]

yeah ik

[wind spade]

41% on iron, 35% on coal + some small limestone savings

it's not always, but a lot of no screw alts are better

[hot ginkgo]

I still use steel screws in my steelworks. Just to make use of the higher per machine output of bolted frames and plates. But thats about the only place.

[wind spade]

e.g. Copper Rotor is best rotor alt

in terms of raw resources

and it uses screws 😄

also, best way to make screws is actually steel rod -> normal screw recipe

[hot ginkgo]

I always factor in my laziness when designing. Steel rod to screws is more machines and extra steps.

[wind spade]

well that's up to you 😉 I'm just sitting here doing math (read - putting numbers in my tool) and giving you the results. I haven't yet build anything in SF really, so it's easy for me to focus on resource efficiency 😄

[patent bough]

yeah, definitely a lot easier to optimize recipes for various factors (parts/min, resource cost, power cost, etc) than it is human labor hours.

[hot ginkgo]

New tool option: fewest number of buildings.

[wind spade]

well power cost optimization is usually the same as fewest number of buildings

but it's interesting concept

I'll add that to my optimization list

[patent bough]

is it? i thought the theoretical power cost efficiency optimum was 100 buildings at 1% instead of 1 at 100%

[wind spade]

well, the tool would ofc assume 100% OC

sure, you can give 100 buildings @ 1%

but I meant more like getting the best set of recipes to have the lowest power consumption

[patent bough]

less efficient for space (but you do have a lot of space), but a lot less efficient for time (you do not have infinite time to play video games unfortunately). i do like underclocking the last machine in a line when the numbers don't divide evenly though.

[hot ginkgo]

I believe the wiki has a MW per item made doesnt it? Could you use that info?

[patent bough]

(and also enjoy underclocking miners if i'm not using their full output yet)

[wind spade]

I do have it as well. Just didn't have time to implement it yet

also currently there's a big rewrite going on with the tool with hopes of speeding up the loading times and getting rid of some quirks it had

[hot ginkgo]

Loading times? I find jt pretty quick.

[wind spade]

so development of new features is paused for now

if you open https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production directly, it takes a while to load (especially if you have a lot of tabs like I do)

it's a few seconds, but it can be even faster

also there's some optimization regarding server load

[hot ginkgo]

Ahh. Yeah. I almost always have a tab open on your site. So I dont notice it all that much.

[wind spade]

it's still just a few seconds and calculation speed is pretty much instant (compared to other tools I think it's the fastest or one of the fastest), but that's partially why it takes a while to load (I put higher priority for calculation times than loading times)

[hot ginkgo]

@wind spade on the MW per item thing, as far as whats listed on the wiki. Are you aware if that number includes all machines required in the production of that one item? Seems like it does.

[upbeat tide]

Where is the formula for power draw in overclocked structures?

[hot ginkgo]

https://satisfactory.gamepedia.com/Clock_speed

There are two sections. One for production, one for power generation.

[wind spade]

@hot ginkgo yeah and I've been bugging wiki team about it all the time that the number can't be there

uhh

just checked Iron Rod's page and the number only includes energy needed per item

but doesn't include any other machines

[hot ginkgo]

Interesting. I was looking at crystal oscillators and it shows 3300 per item.

[upbeat tide]

Ill be happy once this smithing plant is done. About to turn 3750 copper ingots into 3750 copper sheets. Place already has a few hundred refineries, whats another 150 ish? 🙂

[wind spade]

@hot ginkgo well it's correct. Manufacturer is 55 MW, so 55 MJ/s, takes 120 seconds so 6600 MJ/cycle, but produces 2 items per cycle, so 3300 MJ

[hot ginkgo]

I see why you're asking them to remove that. Definitely confusing.

[wind spade]

uh no, I asked to remove the "complete power cost with all the machines" number, not this one

and they already removed it

[sturdy lagoon]

I have wondered about the mj per item

If it's accumulated energy needed to produce the part, or just the last stage.

[wind spade]

only last stage

it's impossible to calculate the whole part

as you have tons of ways to produce it

[sturdy lagoon]

I was sort of thinking that

I might do some accumulation and comparison today. See where I can trim some energy cost without cutting into the high priority resources

For things like Iron and limestone I think I will start with a low energy demand and work on total output when I actually draw from all the nodes

[bleak coral]

Wouldn't alt-recipes make the least number of machines different from least power total for the system? I'm thinking particularly of the pure resource recipes switching from smelters or constructors to refineries

[wind spade]

least machines is different than least power and tbh I don't think anyone should optimize for least machines 😄

[edgy imp]

Not until you start hitting the game's object limit, then least of everything becomes important. 🙂

[wind spade]

don't build tons of foundations then 😄

[sand garnet]

@wind spade encouragement to overclock everything in your calculator

Least machines ftw

[bleak coral]

least machines without overclock would be kinda interesting, can be fun to build as compact a factory as possible

although then I guess we're calculating smallest footprint, which is different yet again to least machines, cause 1 smelter is waaaay smaller than 1 refinery

[wind spade]

if I find a good source of size data then I can probably do footprint optimizations as well

[sand garnet]

Wiki not good?

[bleak coral]

I assume for precise data it'd take more than walls and foundation to measure

[elder jewel]

this is my factory, any tips on how i can destroy alot of it to save more power

like what is not important

[upbeat tide]

Besides down scaling/turning off the smart plating part, etc dont think there is much you can do without finding alternate recipes

[elder jewel]

will coal power be better then my crappy biomass burners

[upbeat tide]

Also, I am setting up some steamed copper sheet arrays. 750 copper ingots and water —> making 750 sheets

Each refinery needs 22.5 water a min. Idea is to split the water like this

• pipe one - 16.66 refineries
• pipe two - connects to pipes one and three in the back of the array
• pipe three - feeds 16.66 refineries

Pipe 1 and 3 are 300m3 and pipe 2 has 200m3. A bit more than required in total

@elder jewel yea coal is your first fully automated power source, so yup better than biomass

[glacial geyser]

You don’t necessarily need raw size data per machine

You just assign them a value based on their relative sizes initially

Footprint optimization is a current field of computer science research. Especially 3 dimensions. It’s a classic Pallet Loading Problem https://dialnet.unirioja.es/descarga/articulo/5403327.pdf

In the problem statement, you have different sizes of items, different weights, and different sturdiness of items.

Like loading a grocery bag, it’s the exact same problem but on a smaller scale. People become accustomed to loading grocery bags a certain way based on “similar items” but one metric is almost universal, weight distribution. It’s just difficult to carry when heavier items are not distributed evenly

But I digress, the problem is computers are terrible at these kinds of problems. Even neural networks are heuristic in approach

[worthy copper]

its even more complex than a pallet loading problem, because there's input and output directions/locations and you want to match those as closely as possible

[glacial geyser]

It takes a computer a lot longer to solve for footprint and placement than a human can because of the number of permutations we instinctively throw out. We also have the advantage of seeing something placed once and saying “oh I think if I move this slightly to the right I’ll be able to squeeze one more into the area” a computer would need relative ages to figure that out.

@worthy copper absolutely. Not just that but we violate collision detection all the time

Squeezing mergers and splitters as close to the input and outputs as possible even when it may strictly violate the collision boxes for compactness and the fact that the game allows us to do it.

So even once a computer was given all of the rules and enough time to figure out a mathematically optimal layout, it would say “I got it!” we’d look at the result, and probably never do it.

[upbeat tide]

I have tried that, and found it more problematic than worth

The shove the splitter/merger as close as you can even inside the hitbox

[glacial geyser]

I do it all the time

I also use lifters on multiple inputs like assemblers and manufacturers

[upbeat tide]

I usually leave a gap, especially on inputs wide enough to accept a lift

[glacial geyser]

And when I do the spacing between the back of the machines there is no room for any accordion out from the lifter into the splitter. it’s that tight

I used to do nothing but balanced trees

Because of symmetry

[upbeat tide]

Thats an example of how I do it

[glacial geyser]

But man that is just an egregious waste of space IMO. I’m able to put nearly twice the amount of machines in a given area by manifolding

[upbeat tide]

Iignore the red lights

[glacial geyser]

I use lifters there

Instead of angled belts

[wind spade]

@glacial geyser @sand garnet the problem is that I need the data in an automated form. I don't want to hardcode them in and expect them to never change (although they are problably not going to change) or struggle for new data when new machcines are added

[glacial geyser]

^ in full SF spirit

[wind spade]

and as OrneryD said, I need to decide between 2D and 3D

well currently I have all the data gathering including images automated. So I don't want to do manual work and checking every update

[glacial geyser]

Spoken like a true software engineer

It bugs me how many software engineers are like “it’s fine, I’ll just check every update and manually add everything.” For any project....

[wind spade]

you would be surprised how long I worked like that

the whole old site was manually gathered data

1600 lines of hand-written JSON

pretty much when I started working on U3 was when I first automated it

it's all because of how the tool emerged from the prototype (was intended just for me and a friend, then I published it, people started asking for new features, bugfixes, improvements and I didn't have time to do a code rewrite to go from prototype to proper code

[fresh elm]

everything non-irradiated, finally put together for max nuclear build:

[worthy copper]

youre spacing things out a lot more than i am

[fresh elm]

I wanted a specific build style here

[worthy copper]

oh yeah you have all that stuff in separate buildings dont you

[worthy copper]

yeeeeee

[frosty sail]

FPS DROP SIMULATOR

[glacial geyser]

it's all because of how the tool emerged from the prototype (was intended just for me and a friend, then I published it, people started asking for new features, bugfixes, improvements and I didn't have time to do a code rewrite to go from prototype to proper code
@wind spade such is the typical story with anything written lol

[wind spade]

I guess 🤷‍♂️ but at least now it's working well

[glacial geyser]

That it does. And don’t take my criticisms of it to mean I’m not appreciative of it or the effort you put into it. I am fully aware of how when certain criticisms get levied against something I’ve written it is easy to take that criticism and spread it over the entire thing and feel personally attacked over it. I’ve been there

If anything my criticisms have been about one particular aspect and what appeared to be the mindset that informed the decisions of what best meant. Which I know can seem personal but I really hope it’s not taken that way

[wind spade]

I face criticism basically every day and I am well aware of some of it being perfectly valid (and most of that is either in my Trello or in my head) and I also know how much people can hate something that has been made for free for them to use 😄

[dry wave]

Before I hook up 144 Nuclear Power Plants, about how many Industrial Storage containers should I have for nuclear waste? Let's say I'll end up using about 100GW (damn Pure recipes).

[glacial geyser]

Lmao or not understanding the point of something when it’s just clearly a difference in mindset about a particular problem and everyday people being ok with mediocrity

80 playtime hours= 1ISC*2500MW consumed

[wind spade]

and don't worry, I'm definitely aware of your problem and needed solution for that problem, it's just not on top of my priority list at the moment

@dry wave how long do you want them to last?

[glacial geyser]

So in your case 100GW for every 80 hours you want to play you need 40 ISCs

[dry wave]

That seems like a lot

[glacial geyser]

Or 1 ISC/2 hours of gameplay running at capacity

Well consuming 100GW is a lot of power

[wind spade]

well.. containers are pretty much free

[dry wave]

currently using 30,000MW. I've got my units correct, right? That's 30GW, right?

[glacial geyser]

free

[dry wave]

I'm only talking about trippling current usage.

[glacial geyser]

eyes suspiciously

cries in 13GW usage.

[dry wave]

So at current usage, it'd be 6hr / ISC?

[glacial geyser]

~that per ISC

Now I feel the need to build more containers

But I’m afraid of approaching my existing storage container area lol

[dry wave]

I feel like I should go ahead and spend 2 hours just making my ISC grid for nuclear waste before hooking it up.

[glacial geyser]

Yes

I made 172 containers and I feel it was not enough

[dry wave]

I've got it way under the map off the East coast, so space isn't an issue.

[wind spade]

those two hours will make it so you don't have to worry about the waste for next 100s of hours tho

so I'd call it a fair trade

[glacial geyser]

It’s definitely a fair trade

[dry wave]

I was sad to discover I can't use all that water out here for water extractors, but easy access to below the map is handy for nuclear waste.

[glacial geyser]

But considering you can make 170GW of turbofuel power with what.... 4 oil pipelines?

I’ve considered switching back to turbofuel

[dry wave]

Yeah, I'm probably going to go ahead and transition to turbofuel. I somehow thought nuclear would be fine.

[wind spade]

nuclear is fine

[glacial geyser]

But the reasonable caps for power generated without using crude for power are vastly different with nuclear

[wind spade]

and also uses way less resources than turbofuel

[glacial geyser]

^

[wind spade]

also uses more common resources

and if you want to go really big, you pretty much have to go with nuclear, because otherwise you're left with no oil to make turbomotors

[glacial geyser]

Sulfur, limestone, and, uranium. Some steel, copper, caterium.

You don’t need any crude I think to make nuclear power and boy if I don’t burn through rubbers like a coke fueled hooker

[dry wave]

Turbofuel only uses oil, coal and sulfur. My current nuclear setup is using Caterium, Iron, Copper, Quartz, Rubber, Plastic, Coal, Sulfur... Isn't Turbofuel cheaper?

[glacial geyser]

It’s less overall resource intensive but with 1/10th the potential output using an additional available resource meant for exactly 1 purpose

[wind spade]

oil is the most rarest resource

[dry wave]

The goal of all this is Turbomotors for the Sink.

[wind spade]

then nuclear all the way

[glacial geyser]

^

Make an ultra massive storage box. I’m going to do that myself.

[dry wave]

I thought Turbomotors were limited by Caterium primarily. You're saying it's Oil limited?

[glacial geyser]

I already made one I felt was sufficient. But I’m worried it was not.

Aluminium actually

[dry wave]

Maybe the thing I read wasn't accounting for all the Pure recipes or whatever.

[glacial geyser]

Or bauxite. It’s the thing that caps turbo motor manufacturing

[wind spade]

bauxite is indeed the limit for TMs

[glacial geyser]

You still have plenty of other resources.

[dry wave]

Oh right. Duh. My memory just kicked in. It was bauxite.

[glacial geyser]

Even after capping turbomotors.

[dry wave]

OK, nuclear it is, then

[wind spade]

but you don't need any bauxite for nuclear 😉

[dry wave]

2 hours of building ISCs, here we go.

[glacial geyser]

I use it

Silica for something in my pipeline chain

[dry wave]

Thanks for the tips my bros.

[glacial geyser]

Or wait... you don’t need silicone circuit boards for AI limiters or electromagnetic control rods right?

[wind spade]

you need ECRs

[glacial geyser]

Yeah completely separate supply chains.

[dry wave]

Suggestions?

it's a little late. All this is implemented, but any changes I should make?

[glacial geyser]

I need to do that alt too. I’m using the basic one and it is so slow

Don’t do insulated crystal quartz for the nuclear rod manufacturing

[wind spade]

steel coated plate? interesting

[worthy copper]

nah insulated quartz is correct

[glacial geyser]

Or steel@coated plate

But you bring oil into the equation at two spots

When you could use that resource for other things.

[worthy copper]

oil is actually pretty hilariously underused in endgame recipe chains

[dry wave]

I had the plastic lying around. But i'll change that.

[wind spade]

technically steel coated plaate is best from weighted raw resource point, but no need to do it 😄

[glacial geyser]

^ classic @wind spade response 😛

[worthy copper]

and youre limited by quartz more than oil if doing bigtime fuel rod+turbomotor production

so sacrificing oil for quartz is worth

[glacial geyser]

Ah I hadn’t considered how bad quartz availability is

[worthy copper]

yeah even at max quartz-efficiency max fuel rods+turbomotors uses almost all the quartz on the map

[dry wave]

The rubber and plastic really isn't hard to come by. I might wait to swap those out until i actually run out of oil.

Or maybe never swap them out.

[glacial geyser]

Quartz is really less available than my ex’s emotions were

So you’re good

Use oil. It’s clean and good for the environment

[dry wave]

Cool. 🙂

[wind spade]

I wouldn't do the coated plate, but otherwise it's nice

[glacial geyser]

(Btw any ex jokes I make are purely jokes I’ve been happily married for almost 14 years)

[dry wave]

Yeah, the coated plate will go eventually.

[wind spade]

but you can do coated plate if you have extra oil products lying around, as it uses very little of them

[dry wave]

21 plastic is nothing

and that's all it will ever use

[wind spade]

cries in not yet married

[glacial geyser]

Diluted fuel seems to be capable of producing an assload of recycled plastic/rubber

[dry wave]

yeah, it's pretty ridiculous

[wind spade]

and now imagine that pipes were originally supposed to carry 600m3

and they changed it last minute due to technical issues

we would literally swim in oil

[glacial geyser]

@worthy copper can we create an RFC to some governing body of units and measurements to formalize “assload” as a unit of measurement?

[dry wave]

I hope they eventually have a super-pipe or something. Maybe a thicker one.

I'm playing vanilla with no save editing, and routing all those pipes is... a lot.

[glacial geyser]

So the 600^3m/min on the extractor was intended

I wonder what issues they ran into. Probably some violation of the conservation of energy principle.

[worthy copper]

i think the transfer from pipe to pipe just wasnt working right at the rate it needed to

[glacial geyser]

But... it’s just... math

[dry wave]

It already violates any kind of pressure physics. All you need is one extractor above your pipe network and you never need pumps.

[glacial geyser]

Indeed

[worthy copper]

well...
it doesnt violate pressure physics. That's where it violates conservation of energy lol

[glacial geyser]

@worthy copper learned me something good about that ad-nauseam one day

[dry wave]

Too bad I can't generate energy off of water pressure. I could create infinite energy.

[glacial geyser]

I meant that maybe through combining things in a certain way allowed for you to produce more than intended if you exceeded some threshold or, in short, create something from nothing

We already have infinite energy with geothermal

I think that’s probably why it’s not finished they want it to be useful but not that useful

Which BTW, leapfrogging coal into oil is definitely possible with just awesome shop tickets in roughly ~ 2 hours.

[dry wave]

Geothermal might be technically infinite, but it would take infinite time to get infinite energy from it. It's not exactly game breaking, given how little they put out per unit time.

[glacial geyser]

I almost did it before I got overwhelmed by the thought of actually unlocking all the tiers again solo

3.6GW is definitely not insignificant mid-late game

[dry wave]

Watching speedruns was kind of inspiring. 30 mins to first space elevator load.

I almost wanted to try it myself.

[glacial geyser]

I can do it even faster

I found a way.

[dry wave]

Post a video.

[glacial geyser]

I should.... but I’m unmotivated

I’ve literally spent almost a whole day on my phone talking to people in this discord server about theoretical things without touching the game for 3 days.

[dry wave]

3.6GW isn't even 2 nuclear power plants. It is insignificant given how much work it is to hook up all the geothermal nodes.

[wind spade]

I spent my last year and half talkking to people in this (and other) discord servers about theoretical things without touching the game

you can't beat me in this

[glacial geyser]

TIL driving a vehicle to a spot on a map that is 30^2km is too much work

[dry wave]

3.6GW covers what, 2 pure copper node processing using the Refinery recipes?

[glacial geyser]

I went nuclear with 1GW

[dry wave]

Yes, but did you maximize your uranium node with 144 reactors?

[glacial geyser]

🤷🏻‍♂️

No

I made enough to support 12 reactors

[dry wave]

I hate when my Capacity chart bounces around because I overclocked too much stuff and didn't hook up enough input. I can't wait until my nuclear is online.

[wind spade]

ugh overclocking 🤢

[dry wave]

yeah, this nuclear setup has no overclocks

I agree with your sentiment

I was a noob once.

[wind spade]

everybody was

I'm still one I guess xD

just have tons of theoretical knowledge but 0 practical experience

[dry wave]

you should play a little bit. it's a fun game.

[wind spade]

who has time for that

looks at the list of feature requests for the tool

[dry wave]

which tool are you building?

[wind spade]

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/

[dry wave]

(sorry, I'm new to this community, I get the feeling I should know who you are)

[wind spade]

the one you use 😄

[dry wave]

Nice!

Thank you so much for that!

My main request is saving my layout when I move all the nodes around.

I had to screenshot my setup because it moves everything back to original positions when I reload the page.

[wind spade]

yeah that's one of planned features, probably soon after I finish this core upgrade

[dry wave]

What platform are you using?

[wind spade]

for now you can also rightclick the graph and press "save as image", which saves it on transparent background, if that helps

[dry wave]

I've been learning Scala.

Ooh, I didn't know about saving as image. That's handy. But regular screenshot worked fine.

[wind spade]

well most of the stuff is frontend, so mostly Javascript (Typescript, AngularJS, currently in process of converting to Angular), but there's some parts in PHP as an API

[glacial geyser]

ugh overclocking 🤢
Reminder: @wind spade hates exponential power inefficiency

[dry wave]

I'll have to check out Angular.

[glacial geyser]

Doooont dooo it

I’m the original author of this: https://github.com/angular-ui/ui-grid

Brad green sent me an angular t shirt

[dry wave]

Nice!

[glacial geyser]

I built a part of my career on angular and have open sourced libraries for other frameworks including React as well. I can tell you this: all of them are absolute garbage

If you’re going to learn anything learn Web Components

[dry wave]

I used to be a web-developer back in late 90's, early 2000's, then switched jobs to C++. I've been out of the loop for client-side development for decades, and now I have to get back into it, and the boss likes Scala.

[glacial geyser]

It’s a browser standard. And those frameworks filled certain gaps for reusable components and composition of those components while the standard was still being worked on

If you enjoy the mindset of a certain framework, that’s fine, use it for composing your app but do not tie the behavior and functionality of your app directly to the framework constructs.

Separate behavior from composition and tie behavior to standards without external dependencies.

Then if they pull the rug out from under you with a given framework as Angular has done often you can adapt rapidly

[dry wave]

I think I get what you're saying. Still, I'd have a tough time translating that into actionable imperatives regarding my current Scala project.

[glacial geyser]

The problem is angular never fixed their problems. They just moved them and made them smaller to manage while at the same time clobbering building browser functionality with their own wrappers so they know when anything happens.

[dry wave]

I THINK I'm only using basic standard JS junk supported by most browsers.

[glacial geyser]

If it’s on MDN it will show you what versions started support. The ECMA script standard implementations are very well defined and absolutely garbage

[dry wave]

I'm lucky in that I really only have to support Chrome (or whatever browser I dictate the app needs).

It's for internal use.

[glacial geyser]

Like arrays. Arrays in JavaScript and ECMA are not arrays. They are exotic objects that mimic array-like behavior.

Yeah it will probably work in most browsers

Microsoft switched to be chromium-based after like edge 21 I think.

[dry wave]

I feel like we're WAY off topic and a moderator is gonna yell at us or something.

[glacial geyser]

If it works it chrome it’s likely to work in edge and safari. Safari is weird because apple WebKit is a fork of WebKit which also forked to chrome

So it’s like they diverged but not by a whole lot but you definitely feel it when something isn’t the same.

[wind spade]

we can go to #off-topic-tech

[worthy copper]

yeah 1 turbofuel setup isnt enough to handle 94.5 nuclear rods/min

this is just with 2/3 of the AI limiter assembly going (plus required supply chain)

bootstrapping this system is gonna be fun

thinking set up the radioactive stuff now and then handcraft the final stuff needed to make some rods (and a hazmat suit...), then distribute them in a bunch of plants to kickstart the whole thing

[glacial hemlock]

94.5NFU is going to cost 3 turbofuel setup at least

But why not just start the nuclear in cascade? You are going to remove temporary turbofuel later on so just keep these to absolute minimum

[young rover]

I would also start in cascade ... later you can disconnect turbo fuel plant. Just keep them in active if one day you need them.

And use the fuel for other purpose in between

[worldly warren]

ok

[viscid raft]

Definitely cascade. Once you've got 31 NFU/min going you can turn on the first third of your reactors, which should be well over 100, at 2.5GW.

Most nuclear systems only need 40GW to get up and running.
So your first 100 reactors will help you bridge the gap.

Would plan out how you are going to handle the waste from turninging them on in advance, because once it is running, it will be hard to fix. Chewing through filters is not fun.

[glacial hemlock]

I even let my first 2 start up as soon as I have 5 rods/min going.

[worthy copper]

doing a proper cascade requires planning

ill jury rig something close to that... somehow.

[upbeat tide]

Cascade?

Ooh nvm

[worthy copper]

considering a fuel rod lasts 5 minutes i can probably just hand-load 30-40 reactors with 2 rods each and then flip the switch on the whole thing and let it self-power from there

[terse prism]

You could inject a portion of fuel production into a buffer before the reactors to power all of them when you are ready to turn on full production

If it were me I wouldn't even start using nuclear until the turbofuel capacity was near exhaustion

but I'm still mostly using geo so I'm nowhere close to needing nuke power

[bleak coral]

@wind spade I think I've got a weird case here, I'm putting together an HMF factory with specific available resources and if I let it use the iron alloy ingot recipe it ends up using ~1000 copper ore and ~1000 iron ore instead of ~1400 iron ore if I take that recipe away and it uses pure iron ingots instead for the same HMF per minute: https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=jx2muAncFyLCbizuNb3T

[sand garnet]

Isnt that normal

The alloy mixes copper and iron to make iron

[worthy copper]

oh its cause youre using the maximize setting

that doesnt properly minimize weighted resources yet, greeny's working on it

[bleak coral]

Ah, that makes sense, so is almost all of this wrong? Should I just find a target ppm and lower/raise it until it fits in my resources?

[worthy copper]

if you dont wanna deal with a ton of recipe shuffling yeah

[willow igloo]

I wish the game would give you a warning when you hit 90%

[wind spade]

@bleak coral when you find the items/min you can have from maximize, use that amount for "items/min" mode, then it optimizes for raw resources

this is something I want to fix asap, hopefuly this week

[bleak coral]

ok, so it did maximize correctly for items per minute, it just didn't minimize resources?

[wind spade]

yeah, maximization is correct, it just doesn't have to pick the most optimal path

[bleak coral]

huh, it actually won't do the max if I put it into items per minute, cause I think it now wants to use more coal than I give it

[wind spade]

I assume it's because it's rounded up

try decreasing the number by 0.001 until it lets you

the tool rounds to two decimal places

[bleak coral]

yeah that was it, does it for 30.56 instead of 30.57, guess it was actually 30.56something

[wind spade]

yeah, between 30.565 and 30.569

[bleak coral]

so yeah 30.56 is close enough

oh no I lose between .005 and .009 parts per minute 😛

by the way thanks so much for this tool, it saves so much time from doing all the tedious calculations and lets me actually look at many more possible factories than I would otherwise

[glacial geyser]

I think I found the best place to store nuclear waste.

in the depths of hell

[kind crypt]

hmmm... Anyone have a plan for 149 turbofuel generator... ? x)

(and a formula, if possible xD)

[glacial geyser]

@kind crypt https://satisfactory.gamepedia.com/Fuel_Generator

There’s a section about setting it up with 5 different stages

The final stage supports 148 fuel generators on turbofuel

But it requires the alt recipes for diluted packaged fuel and such

[keen patio]

Stage 4 in that wiki is borked; it doesnt make sense; mentions heavy turbo fuel but then doesnt use it.... compacted coal is already unlocked in stage 2... so what is it going on about..

it also adds more buildings but then says it uses less power than stage 3...

[kind crypt]

Wait, the recipe is : 1 suflur + 1 coal + 1 oil + 3 water ?!

... and that's all for.... 149 turbofuel gen ?!

[hot ginkgo]

@keen patio I yhink you might be misreading something. All the coreect into is in there. Turbo heavy fuel is combining heavy oil residue with compacted coal. And makes 10GW. 2 more than the diluted packaged fuel.

[keen patio]

ah ok, so its' going the route of maximum turbofuel using the alt recipe.. which is rough on the map resources... I think.. but yea the stage layout implies moving from 1 step to the next.. and it mentions unlocking things 'again' which is odd.

[hot ginkgo]

They intend it to assume you have nothing to be sure you know exactly what recipes you need.

The Turbo Heavy Fuel is a good set up for people who don't want to do the massive diluted fuel to turbofuel loop.

Once needs 80+ refineries and the other less than 30.

@kind crypt easier to think of it in terms of crude oil needed. The best set is only needs 300 oil for 22GW.

[kind crypt]

It's not more easy to doing turbofuel directly from residue and compacted coal and do not use the step with water ? :x

[sand garnet]

You get far less

[worthy copper]

the problem with turbo heavy fuel is its less material efficient

takes more compacted coal per unit turbofuel, and refining HOR to fuel via diluted packaged fuel means you can get more out of your oil too

[sharp crow]

turbo heavy fuel is just worse than the default recipe, unless you don't have the diluted packaged fuel recipe. even considering power requirements it's still more efficient to do diluted packaged fuel (especially with the fluid packager mod lol)

[kind crypt]

About this step : "Mine 533.33 Coal and Sulfur/min and process it into Compacted Coal using 21.33 Assemblers (533.33/min)."; can I make them in 8 assemblers at 250 % (62,5/min) and 1 at 136 % (34/min) ?

[worthy copper]

you could... if you care to dump that many powershards and spend the extra power for it

[terse prism]

Yeah... that's a ton of wasted power when you can just make more assemblers and their footprint is small compared to the rest of the setup

[kind crypt]

2 to 22 ?! Compacted ? I dont know how to make them in a building x)

[glacial geyser]

@kind crypt manifolding

[kind crypt]

??

[foggy ferry]

splitter at each input

[foggy ferry]

also can a refinery pump above itself?

[glacial geyser]

that is 11x7 foundation holding 18 assemblers

10m above the ground headlift @foggy ferry

[foggy ferry]

how tall is a refinery?

[terse prism]

Dimensions
Width 12 m
Length 20 m
Height 30 m

https://satisfactory.gamepedia.com/Refinery

[foggy ferry]

Thanks

i now know i need pumps for my vertical aluminum factory

[glacial geyser]

@kind crypt does that screenshot make sense?

you put them back to back in a row and put splitters down the middle

[kind crypt]

not really...

[sturdy lagoon]

1 second

ill get a pic

[glacial geyser]

yeah i am WAAAAAAY away from my factory atm

put them facing ass-end toward eachother

manifolding

one alternative is balanced tree splitters. But those take up significantly more room.

and i mean significantly more room. that same 7x11 space only contained 9 assemblers with all the conveyors perfectly balancing the incoming stuff

and i tried to make it compact

[sturdy lagoon]

1/2

single side manifold dispersing to 75 gens

let me run to that floating conveyor bus in the background

I have better pics for keeping your work space clear

[kind crypt]

oh ! I see, Thank you ^^

[sturdy lagoon]

lvl 3 rubber, lvl 4 motors, lvl 5 radio control unit, level 6 heat sink

I skip the first 2 splitters/mergers. I try to avoid blocking my floor

the accumulator on the left is radio control units. it just goes to the bus and back into production immediately

[terse prism]

This is my single constructor making supercomputers setup

I'm also one that is fond of the manifolds that use elevators off of the splitters/mergers to keep belts off of the floor

[sturdy lagoon]

It really is worth the little bit of extra effort

One if my favorite pieces of construction was a 3-6 conveyor bus. At 50 intersections both 3 and 4 are terminated and I use 2 lifts to bring the bus back down to 3 and 4 for the last 50

Idk what it is. But that double lift dropping 5->3 and 6->4 makes me beem

[kind crypt]

Ok, I'm back xD Can you tell me if it's correct ? If I create 6 floor (last floor with 2 assemblers), can it work ? It's for create 533,33 compacted coal with 22 assemblers ^^

[terse prism]

Yeah, it should work... what's the reason for going vertical with only 4 assemblers per floor?

[kind crypt]

I dont want a platform x) I would like a building xD

[sturdy lagoon]

Going for more of a city look?

[kind crypt]

Yup

For this building, I have 2 splitters superimposed to feed the assembler

[sturdy lagoon]

Have you considered turning the 4 assemblers north/south?

That would allow you to split and merge on the center spine

Just a thought. Perhaps even for another building appearance ☺

[kind crypt]

No, but that only reverses the lines, right ?

[sturdy lagoon]

I might ms paint this. Idk how to describe it well

Rather than
manifold->assembler->accumulator. It would be
Manifold-> <-assembler

It's really not a big difference

[kind crypt]

Like this ?

[sturdy lagoon]

just a different footprint

so you can have some building variety 😄

[kind crypt]

Allright, let's start a building test xD

[kind crypt]

Sulfur - OK

Coal - OK

[fresh elm]

almost done.

[upbeat tide]

Next up, 473 nuclear reactors, 141750 water, and a ungodly amount of water extractors

[glacial hemlock]

@fresh elm crazy

[fresh elm]

I still have to do the fuel rods

[glacial hemlock]

@upbeat tide building nuclear is actually easier than the rod factory

[fresh elm]

and bring the uranium over

[upbeat tide]

Rod factory?

[fresh elm]

I have been working on this 80+ hours a week for like 2 months

but then I'm also doing it all manually and super detailed build

[glacial hemlock]

@upbeat tide the factory producing NFR

[upbeat tide]

Aah yea thats true

[glacial hemlock]

The 2:5 approach is quite neat and doesn't need tons of water pipes

[upbeat tide]

All I know is that it makws my 40 water pipe pure ingot facility seem tiny

This is the main water input for said refinery arrays

[glacial hemlock]

You should have do it in a screensaver way instead

[upbeat tide]

Maybe, different angle tho

[worthy copper]

oh yeah ive been using AA for my build

[upbeat tide]

Tried using AA for me its fustrating to use accurately

[keen patio]

AA?

[worthy copper]

area actions (its a mod)

basically lets you do big scale copypasting which has been enormously helpful for giant refinery/manufacturer manifolds

[fresh elm]

The pipework is looking good @upbeat tide

[upbeat tide]

Thankfully its done, pipework

Think there is a good 20km worth in that plant

[frigid seal]

Ooga booga

[glacial hemlock]

Hopefully won't reach the UE4 entity limit too soon.

[brisk thunder]

Apparently you can just update some config file to bypass it?

[fresh elm]

yes, but still once your save starts getting pretty big you still have issues

but they're more around loading

and the fact that saving takes several minutes hehe

my save file just crossed 22 mb tonight though, and has a ton of stuff in it, so you can keep going for a long time.

[brisk thunder]

I assume you changed the autosave interval? Cause I feel like that'd get pretty annoying

[fresh elm]

yes, it's 120 minutes

[frosty sail]

I have mine at an like 30 mins

I will be turning that up soon as it’s getting close to a 15-20 second auto save which is annoying

[fresh elm]

that's what you get for 22 megs

[frosty sail]

You haven’t done nuclear yet???

Wait nvm

Does that nuclear symbol mean you have?

[fresh elm]

I'm in the middle of rebuilding my nuclear right now:

[frosty sail]

How many you plants you building?

[fresh elm]

473 (one at 50%)

[frosty sail]

I mean

Fair enough

[fresh elm]

I abandon so many massive projects in games like this - but I've kept going on this one since 6/27

lol

[frosty sail]

Not bad

I’ve currently got about 24 sooo you’ll have just a few more

[fresh elm]

I'm also the crazy guy with 80 doggos

[frosty sail]

Because why not

That is obviously the thing to do with your time

[sturdy lagoon]

How do you get that structure summary?

[frosty sail]

I think you upload your save into that satisfactory calculator thing and it tells you

[sturdy lagoon]

Ah ok

[frosty sail]

I’m not 100% sure but that’s what I’d guess as that is the sorta thing that website would say

[glacial geyser]

I’m also on my way to building that @fresh elm

I’m currently building refineries for a massive steel operation in the desert. 28 refineries and 46 foundries 5 coal nodes. 2 iron nodes

Should be making just over 2700 steel ingots/min

And with limestone, copper, quartz, and caterium all pure in the same area I’ll probably build a shitload of everything else there too with refineries and all that water for pure ingot recipes.

I’m planning on building a massive nuclear waste storage facility just off the map which I’ve already started but it’s so massive and needing so much steel to complete it seemed prudent to just make a new even bigger steel/concrete operation and deprecate my old one and just use it for sinking and personal stuff

[wooden pollen]

@glacial geyser Rocky desert or the dune desert

[glacial geyser]

Dunes @wooden pollen

[terse prism]

I've heard about the doggos crashing the game lol

[naive ingot]

How?

[hot ginkgo]

Klepdar had an issue with 80 some doggos. When he would loot the doggos it would crash his game.

[terse prism]

and item limits...

[hot ginkgo]

Yes. Klepdars world was already very large. The doggos was the primary source of pushing it over the edge. Devs looked into his save. I found a work around for him though. And his world has been working great every since.

[noble linden]

what was the work around?

[hot ginkgo]

Increasing the object limit. Let me find the post.

[terse prism]

All worlds are the same size 😉

[noble linden]

whats bigger? The world or yo mamma?

[hot ginkgo]

His save. Not the physical map.

https://www.reddit.com/r/SatisfactoryGame/comments/da0wg0/maximum_number_of_allowed_objects_is_far_too_low/f1mzp26?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3

[noble linden]

niceeee

just gonna... go ahead and make that change while I'm applying the multiplayer fixes...

[terse prism]

What multiplayer fixes?

[hot ginkgo]

Increased players perhaps?

I've heard a rumor some time ago about a file change that may improve dsync issues.

[noble linden]

Yea it's the desync fixes. One moment

[hot ginkgo]

I dont do MP. But I'm still very interested in the fixes for sharing with others.

So long as they actually work.

[worthy copper]

i wonder if part of kelpdar's rendering timeouts is all of the glass on his world

[terse prism]

I use a lot of glass on mine also because the lighting is terrible without it

The difference I have noticed is that East/West facing center bar produces less shadows than North/South and seems to have less rendering issues

[worthy copper]

i avoid glass cause muh fps lol

[terse prism]

North/South I had FPS weirdness rather quickly, East/West no problems

[noble linden]

https://satisfactory.gamepedia.com/Multiplayer

Under other options, a temp fix for lag and desync. Seems to work pretty good

[hot ginkgo]

Klep does have an insane amount of items in his world. Probably one of the largest save files around right now. Hes increased the object limit multiple times. Im not surprised that he's literally bringing UE to its knees and kicking it in the balls.

[terse prism]

I'm curious to see what that world looks like...

[hot ginkgo]

@fresh elm got that SCIM overview of your map handy?

[fresh elm]

Whole thing or just where I'm workin?

[hot ginkgo]

Whole thing.

[fresh elm]

1s

that's most of it

[worthy copper]

I can only imagine how long it takes that map to load

[frosty sail]

The fact you have time to do that amazes me

[hot ginkgo]

@terse prism

[fresh elm]

I'm retired

[frosty sail]

I mean wow

[worthy copper]

he did it all by hand too, no area actions o-o

[terse prism]

That is impressive

[fresh elm]

the area I'm working on now

[hot ginkgo]

Has anyone from CSS contacted you about the render thread issue?

[fresh elm]

no, but they have my bug report

and snutt has a copy of my save from like 5 megs ago or so

[hot ginkgo]

Wasn't that during the doggo overload?

[fresh elm]

it was

[terse prism]

Your floors are mostly 4 walls tall?

[fresh elm]

before I did the ini change

hah, no, they're all different heights. I just have diff kinds of bands. the ones you can see there are all 12 I think

they've got refineries on them prob

[hot ginkgo]

Probably. I dont have anyhere near enough stuff to be able to go "maybe that's what's in there."

[terse prism]

I'm still using smelters for my ore but I don't exactly have a lot going on being that I'm still on geothermal power

[worthy copper]

my plan was to make the floors and then box them in later but figuring out how to deal with a 78 manufacturer manifold and make it look cool is going to be interesting

[glacial geyser]

I’m laid off so until I’m working again I’ve been playing satisfactory like a full-time job as well @fresh elm but that will end soon enough

My problem is I don’t like to plan out my factories other than as I’m building them.

Because I feel like even if I plan it, it’s not going to end up working the way I intended anyways, so I might as well just start building and then rebuild it if I need to adjust something

But I am kind of sad that I didn’t start in the dunes to begin with. It’s so rich with pure nodes and the grasslands is not.

[terse prism]

You could always build new things there

[glacial geyser]

I am in the middle of that now

But on the same save that I had since day 1

I haven’t had the desire to re-unlock all the tiers

I feel like I’d rather just re-work what I already have

[terse prism]

I restarted a factory and found that having played and knowing what to do, unlocking tiers didn't take very long

[glacial geyser]

Yeah I think it’s just the thought of doing it solo

[terse prism]

Hard drives is the biggest effort there...

and I regret not laying foundations to get between them, either... I went on foot/jetpack to each of them

[glacial geyser]

Like I love playing multiplayer and working together to unlock things

That’s super fun I could do that all day

I don’t even care how others want stuff built I’ll do things their way or just let them do it. I enjoy helping and supporting so like I helped a guy with caterium and quartz unlocks, got him to coal and then bugged out and he’s been having a blast

Helping my daughter start the game has been amazing too lol

[bleak coral]

@glacial geyser probably not worth getting the mk2s with all the hand delivery stuff, mk2 helps with screws into reinforced plates and getting more out of miners, and you're buying reinforced plates not making them, and using portable miners not regular miners

[glacial geyser]

2409028 sink points for all the items from the wreckage

how many tickets is that?

that's grabbing every high level item. surprisingly, HMF are worth more combined total points than the RSUs.

HMF actually supply 3x the amount the RSUs supply by themselves.

[bleak coral]

the formula according to the wiki that you can plug into a spreadsheet is: 500*POWER((CEILING.MATH(N/3)-1),2)+1000

replacing N with the cell for ticket numbers

that gets you # of points for N tickets

[glacial geyser]

that can't be correct

[bleak coral]

oh wait, I read that wrong, that's the cost for the N-th coupon

[glacial geyser]

I was gonna say lol

[bleak coral]

and that's only after the first 3 coupons, the first 3 are 1000 points

it'd probably be faster just to collect all the stuff and dump it into a fresh awesome sink

[glacial geyser]

52 tickets

call it 50 in case i messed up the thing

[bleak coral]

did you just test it?

[glacial geyser]

I just added the calc to the sheet

there

if it's correct you should be able to sink the unnecessary items for 50 tickets by picking up the items i drew out

also picking up those items reduces the amount of reinforced plates required

almost covers all of them

to make

[bleak coral]

I'm getting 51 so yeah 50 is probably a safe number to plan around

[glacial geyser]

50 will get you everything you need to build the space elevator + the parts to make the items

so you could safely reduce the amount of things required. I think you could probably get away with simply making concrete and iron stuff just to get the sink done

[bleak coral]

plus all the stuff you need to get the tier 0 stuff done

[glacial geyser]

then dump everything in it, buy everything else you need. I have no idea what the base run speed is without exploiting hopping or whatev er

[bleak coral]

or are you just planning fastest to coal for a real save, not speedrun

[glacial geyser]

im just considering the speedrun

[bleak coral]

cause you've gotta make all the stuff for tier 0, to get tier 1 and get the awesome sink

[glacial geyser]

the tier 0 im thinking is simply set up your stuff to be able to build enough while you run to the other locations

then hit it up on the way to the other side, hit milestones then run north and grab those items

[bleak coral]

although you only need to make rods and plates, you get enough wire to satisfy tier 0 wires and cable from wrecks

[glacial geyser]

yeah plenty

its rods, plates, and concrete are the only things you have to actually make

you get plenty of screws and they are just to supplement the reinforced plates you will pick up.

[bleak coral]

so setup portable miners on an iron node, run to some wrecks, cross back to the portable miners, make the rods and plates you need to get smelters and constructers, throw the rest of the ore in those, then go back to collecting from wrecks

[glacial geyser]

and i think i plotted out acessible locations. there is one that is up on a pillar, you may need base-building to access it.

it's the one with supercomputers

you may want to hit north first then go south

bring the hub with you to make sure you nail milestones as soon as they become available

you may not even need constructors initially depending on how long it actually takes to make that stuff. you may just want it to start automation right after you unlock tier 1/2

[bleak coral]

and of course hand-making is faster, so unless you need to be doing something else, you want to handmake stuff

compare to 1 or 2 constructors

[glacial geyser]

especially rods and cable

I think plates might be the only thing worth automating for a speedrun

but here's the thing..... I don't want to do the speedrun myself. It would be cool if someone else wanted to try it xD

[bleak coral]

haha, yeah that ain't exactly my specialty either, I'd rather just take my time building stuff

[upbeat tide]

I cant speed run this game. OCD wont let me

[bleak coral]

maybe message one of the people who are doing it actively, they may want to try this new area themselves

[fresh elm]

I'm not sure I will want to start over again at this point

[glacial geyser]

Are any of the speed runners in this discord?

Yo @noble nexus

Or @glacial hemlock

Or @rugged rover

Looks like some on the leaderboard are in here

I DMed a few of them. I just like theorizing and seeing if things are possible. But I crumble under timed pressure

[noble nexus]

I will get back to you after my stream, sorry fam. ❤️

[civic forum]

https://discordapp.com/channels/370472939054956546/553550313533997057/750908777623978144

[civic forum]

I'm crippled by apprehension :u If I build it wrong I'll probably be to lethargic to fix it later.

[glacial geyser]

There’s no single “right way” to build stuff @civic forum

If it makes you happy, go for it. If you end up needing more throughput after, add more machines and mine another node. It would take a very long time to aggregate and exhaust all nodes.

But don’t tie yourself to someone else’s build or feel like if it’s not exactly perfect or you had to move a splitter somewhere you didn’t want to initially, or the math is slightly off, nobody is going to shame you

The point of the game is exploration both in the existing world sense and the one you build.

If you’re a type of person who has to maximize efficiency perfectly, this game can take a LONG time. I’m still finding missing conveyor belt connections, machines on standby I didn’t realize were on standby, errantly laid foundations, all kinds of stuff

And even then, the math will drive you mad eventually. The fact that you can’t divide certain numbers evenly across an evenly distributed manifold of machines means you end up alternating between under clocking 66-67% and it’s still .2 off from perfect

[glacial hemlock]

@glacial geyser yes i am here

[glacial geyser]

Hey there! I have an idea for a speed run if you are interested

I believe you can get to package% in <20 mins

[civic forum]

Tolerable limits >_>;

[glacial geyser]

@glacial hemlock https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18SUnWY4AIahXqcHXblbV6wPAbOcHgWUv1Mz5BJTSNsI/edit

With the wreckage items in the dunes starting area you can get 50 tickets and have most of the items required to hit all the milestones without building much at all

[glacial hemlock]

20mins not possible, the absolute minimum time required to even unlock the sink is about 22mins, then you have to wait the 5min CD for part assembly then automate the smart plating would take at least 2mins

[glacial geyser]

And with pure nodes accessible for all the base elements within 300m

Yeah that’s the only part I wasn’t sure about but the items themselves to get the building the sink and then buying the remaining items for the space elevator

[glacial hemlock]

Btw you need time to collect biomass if you don't start at forest

[glacial geyser]

I think you could maximize that 22 mins

Are leaves not sufficient? This runs you right past many many trees and brush

[kind crypt]

Hello, little math problem with my "fluid"

[glacial geyser]

And wood

Lots of wood

Take a look at the path and items. LMK what you think. @glacial hemlock

[glacial hemlock]

You can get hurt by some aliens along the path

[glacial geyser]

I’ve done it with 3 health bars on 3 different starts without dying

You do take some damage but you only need to take a few small pigs out near a couple wrecks

[kind crypt]

So, in the image, you can see my source : 300 m³/min. Each raf' make 40 m³/min. 40 x 10 = 400 m³/min. (That make sense) So, I create 2 pipes because the limit for a pipe is 300m³/min. BUT, in all pipes, I've 300 m³/min. WTF, Anyone can explain me this ? :x

[glacial geyser]

The spitters you can just dodge and collect the items. No need to hard drives

I’m just not mechanically that good and under timed pressure I suck

[glacial hemlock]

@kind crypt your refineries are getting stuck. Check them each

@glacial geyser you should try to run a few runs too, that is super stressful and fun at the same time

[glacial geyser]

But 50 tickets is very significant. The amount of starting items you can buy from the awesome shop with that makes up for a lot.

I got to coal in 40 minutes and I was distracted last time

Kids

I have 4 lol

[glacial hemlock]

@glacial geyser given the running speed is 10meter/sec, 6km run is 600sec or 10mins of running.

[glacial geyser]

Yeah that’s what I was wondering about is the travel time

[glacial hemlock]

@glacial geyser i got 8 coal generators running at 1h 16m, and i guess that is my best.

[kind crypt]

@glacial hemlock Nhaaah, it's all good. All work fine

[glacial geyser]

I think if you do the top first, then stop back in mid while things are building to check on them then hit the bottom wreckages, it makes more sense

Then that 10m is broken up to 5 on each side allowing for machines to craft items while you run

Also the HMF by themselves make up about 40 of those tickets.

They are worth 3x the amount as the radio units

[glacial hemlock]

I think SF speedrun optimization can be achieved with TAS

Take note each autosave might slow the game by a bit so be sure to turn it off

[glacial geyser]

Just because you get more of HMFs

I turn off auto save

30m

[glacial hemlock]

@glacial geyser HMF resell only viable before the first 40 tickets. And it doesn't matter whether you sink the loots first or resell the HMF first. (and you need to unlock HMF to be able to buy them back)

[glacial geyser]

Yeah this is just for package% speedrun. I don’t plan on continuing after

[glacial hemlock]

Tbh 32min is really hard to beat.

[glacial geyser]

I don’t think it would be that hard using the path I laid out for someone more motivated than I am lol

I think you could ideally hit 22m+

[glacial hemlock]

😂

Ok, how about you try it first. Give your
self an ample time, say 33mins.

[glacial geyser]

Maybe need to finish putting kids to bed first

[glacial hemlock]

In case you don't know yet, the lizard doggo cave that i visit every of my speedrun has almost having the same amount of loots

The travel time is 6min20s

[glacial geyser]

A lot of starting areas have similar items laying near. Some are more jungle-dense and have more elevation change.

Dunes are mostly flat and open

• easy access to RSU which by themselves give consistent 30 tickets

[glacial hemlock]

RCU you mean?

[glacial geyser]

Even if you just get the one wreckage with RSU and HMF, that’s at least 40 tickets from a single wreck.

Or yeah RCU

If the 32min speedrun was with 25 tickets imagine what you could do with 40

Not all of those wreckages are necessary

[noble nexus]

Alright, I think I am all caught up. I'd be interested in seeing a recording of the route in action, even if it's more theory than what is expected to be put into practice.

I would argue the transportation time can be fudged a bit depending on how much up hill travel is needed, versus downhill. There is a few parts of this run that are indeed "mandatory" like wait times between Tier 2 Upgrades.

[glacial geyser]

Yeah they 5-6 minutes of wait time between the pod launches are ideal for making the trek

[noble nexus]

That's what I was thinking.

[glacial geyser]

Only one wreck has poison

The one with RSUs

But the RSUs are right at the edge of it from the east side/water side of the wreck

You can take less than a single chunk of damage and get them. I’ve done it 3x so far

[noble nexus]

Yea, movement wise should be fine. Not worried about health honestly.

[glacial geyser]

I just wasn’t speedrunning xD

I’m really not a speed runner. I’m just looking at the existing runs and the items and location and it just seems that it’s possible to maximize between pod launches and clear it to minimum time possible

No wasted effort

[noble nexus]

I had considered something similar but with at least another easy minute to clear on my current WR, I figured I would optimize my route first. This though, does have me intrigued.

[glacial geyser]

I mean even the run I saw you do you only got 25 tickets I was surprised. The addition 15 can easily buy all the space elevator parts and you can build that at the same time after the awesome shop

[noble nexus]

So the only issue that comes up is the fact that there are only a few resources I craft after getting the Awesome Sink. I think no more than 30 tickets would be needed for the run. Anything more would be kind of a waste honestly.

[glacial geyser]

Then just grab the RCU

That’s exactly 30

Consistently

[noble nexus]

True.

[glacial geyser]

Also all the nodes in the area at the end where it’s marked

They are pure. 2x limestone, 2x iron, 1x copper

All within viewing distance of eachother

[noble nexus]

Honestly a big time save would be getting my hands on more Cable and Wires to avoid collecting Copper all together.

[glacial geyser]

That’s what I was thinking too. If you run further south near a dead titan tree

There’s something like 200 cable on that wreck

Let me check

And no poison or alpha mobs

[noble nexus]

Very interesting.

[glacial geyser]

ok the one I was thinking of is north, but there is another close by near the sulfur pools

68+54 cable

[bleak coral]

or even wire, if you get enough wire to make the cable you'd still be able to avoid collecting copper

[glacial geyser]

yeah the route i put together collects almost 2K wire

you don't even need half of that

[noble nexus]

Yea, that would do the trick.

[glacial geyser]

the RCU area has 500+ wire

[noble nexus]

I don't recognize the area, which spawn is this btw? XD

[glacial geyser]

north in the oasis area is another 200

dunes

[noble nexus]

Ohhhh, yea that makes sense.

[glacial geyser]

furthest right when you select

[noble nexus]

It would be nice to have a run in a different locale for once. XD

[glacial geyser]

dead titan tree has ~640 wire

531m to the cable but would probably need ramps.

[noble nexus]

Cable should be fine to not worry about if we get the kinda wire you are saying we will.

[noble nexus]

I have been streaming for 9 hours so I am going to turn in, but I may have to test this a bit tomorrow and try to put it into practice. I'll probably message you to get more details.

[glacial geyser]

so yeah the wire is legit lol

[noble nexus]

lol good

[glacial geyser]

also batteries and HMFs lol

and the reenforced iron plates

those make a big difference

[noble nexus]

Those RIPs too

[glacial geyser]

there's 22 close to the north from spawn

and that site has 15

have a good night then

[glacial hemlock]

I start at rocky and i skipped copper entirely for package%

[fierce ruin]

How many coal generators can I run off one node? Pure node Mk. 1 miner

[violet abyss]

like 15?

SOrry, 8

it bumps to 16 with mk2 and so on.

[fierce ruin]

Ok thanks

[elder jewel]

do you need coal gens for an automated coal

[sand garnet]

for coal power, yes.

[elder jewel]

oops wrong chat

[glacial hemlock]

@fierce ruin you can OC it to reach even 20 generators per node

[fierce ruin]

Cool thanks imma have to run up and tap the second node to have my power and steel coal spectate and then my power will be good

[sturdy lagoon]

Blueprint WIP

[kind crypt]

Hey, math of the day I cant explain xD

[sturdy lagoon]

because nothing is removing pressure

[kind crypt]

For the next step, I need 400 m³/min. of heavy oil, this is why I've make 2 pipe. The max of a pipe is 300 m³/min.

[sturdy lagoon]

your pressure built up to 300/m3 but it will only do this while you are not drawing from them

if you consume 200.1/m3 from the pipe it will eventually run empty

[kind crypt]

Ok, so If I connect the pipe to 7 other refineries which will use 200 m³ / minute, the pipe will only come out 200 m³ / minute?

[sturdy lagoon]

ya

you are getting a false reading because your pipe filled up and your refineries filled up

[kind crypt]

I don't have to worry about the flow until I finally go over 300

[clever fern]

ok so here is a question to start a firestorm:
manifold or Load balancing?

[sturdy lagoon]

4 storage containers and 1 manufacturer.
preferably 2 1 2

[sand garnet]

@clever fern manifold

we're efficient and lazy 😛

[worthy copper]

manifold~

[red dust]

а

[sturdy lagoon]

a manifold is really just a balancer waiting for the second half

[bleak coral]

manifold, load balacing is too bulky, and can't handle arbitrary inputs/outputs

[muted crypt]

Manifold is just load balancing with a warmup time

[young rover]

Manifold is the way to go. Load balancing as only advantage ... all factories start to run at the same time. After a few minutes that advantage is gone and it has only inconvénients... large footprint. Bulky.

[bleak coral]

and that's just solved by turning machines on as you build

load-balancing would only win if programmable splitters could do exact ppm splits, and then it's just precise manifolding without warmup honestly

[worthy copper]

load balancer is just an overly bulky manifold 🙂

[bleak coral]

if we can get setting copy and paste, and max ppm settings in programmable splitters though, that'd be fantastic

[violet abyss]

Overflow everthing, cramit all on a 700 line, Smash it into the mechines

If thats not fast enought jump on the line and start kicking it in

[hot ginkgo]

Increase multiplayer limit. Get an army of players to manually move all items. No more conveyors.

Manifolds and load balancing are a thing of the past.

[terse prism]

You can exceed the 780/s ore limit by using portable miners and hand placing into industrial containers

with the increased mp limit you can have players joined and using macros to empty miners and dump the ore into the container

[sand garnet]

make an AI that plays the game for you

[hot ginkgo]

The SnuttBot

[maiden palm]

So... can someone check my math

If i want to build 500 Reinforced Iron Plates, i'd need 2,988 Iron Plates and 8,300 Screws, correct?
The recipe is 18 Iron Plates and 50 Screws for 3 Reinforced Iron Plates

I utterly feel like i'm doing the math entirely wrong.

[wind spade]

bolted iron plate is worse than normal reinforced plate

so I would suggest not using it

[sand garnet]

I use it, because im lazy and i dont want to place a million machines :p

[wind spade]

but if you really want to use it, go for it - you need 8333.32 screws and 3000 iron plates for 500 reinforced plates

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=d22c4wgIMDrc8hkQ37P0

[maiden palm]

How much less is the stand method?

nvm

Interesting, it uses roughly 2300 less screws but the same amount of iron plates

[violet abyss]

sitched plate is the way to go

[bleak coral]

didn't someone do the math and stitched plate is best resource usage in every combination of recipes?

[maiden palm]

yeah im gonna do stitched

[hidden pendant]

Stitch plate combined with Iron Wire....I didn't know that was an option. I shall definitely do that if I need more reinforced plates

[sturdy lagoon]

I have 200% over clocked fuel generators running at 2% lol

[wind spade]

Don't overclock generators 🙁

[sturdy lagoon]

I'm pulling in so much crude right now

It's just physically easy to jam some shards into them

[wind spade]

Build more gens 🤷‍♂️

You won't waste shards that way

[sturdy lagoon]

Oh I will eventually

Just a snowball thing I felt like trying

Since the oil is grouped so hard

Once you tap the big source it's pretty hard to build ahead of the flow

Pulling 255mw from 6 generators

And the consumption seems reasonable enough for a temporary thing

Like burning through ballasts placed early in the build

[wind spade]

Well you overclock it to 200%, but it doesn't produce 200% more

[sturdy lagoon]

But the consumption does match the boost fairly well

[wind spade]

You consume the same amount per MW

[sturdy lagoon]

Consuming 24.9 or something. I just moved away

[wind spade]

There's no gain

[sturdy lagoon]

There s no loss though really is my point

[wind spade]

250% OC is roughly the same as 2 gens at 100%

There is. You lose 3 shards

[sturdy lagoon]

I can take them back any time

[wind spade]

Instead of building one more gen

[sturdy lagoon]

Was definitely a lazy move. And I'm not regretting it 😁

[wind spade]

Yeah it takes your ratios to hell because of the decimals

[sturdy lagoon]

Eventually the shards will go into miners. Just right now my main focus has been dealing with the oil of the world

[worthy copper]

hey, long as he doesnt come here complaining his setup is mysteriously shutting down 🤣

[glacial hemlock]

'We did our best'

[sturdy lagoon]

Lol

You did read the "running at %2" part right

98% consumption isn't going to sneak up on me kiddos

[young rover]

xD

challenge... use 99.99%

[glacial hemlock]

Just spam hypertube entrances

[sturdy lagoon]

Was thinking about adding 10 trains to a little loop track. Just jack up my consumption for a bit. Keep my plastic/rubber flowing

[pale oracle]

Is there and server I can join

[lean phoenix]

Damn. A single pure iron node with a mk2 miner can't be evenly divided into foundries..

[glacial hemlock]

You need multiple of 45? Get 3 nodes instead

Else get the alts

[snow lodge]

Overclock?

[lean phoenix]

Could overclock I guess. It's 1 pure iron node and 4 normal coal nodes so.

[bleak coral]

or just add an extra and underclock

[manic oak]

It will divide evenly if you have the solid steel ingot alternate, but if you don't you can just add a 6th one at 33%

[ancient badge]

how many refineries for 4 fuel gens?

[wind spade]

depends on recipe

[ancient badge]

wdym recipe?

[wind spade]

which recipe you use to make the fuel 😉

[ancient badge]

the original one

[wind spade]

there's two non-alt recipes for fuel, so idk which one you think

[ancient badge]

oh sorry I use the one that produces oil and the purple thing

heavy oil residue

[wind spade]

1.5 refinery then

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=XE6KD5dr1JWedSPJeORf

[frosty sail]

I’m pretty sure you can turn HOR back into fuel right?

[ancient badge]

yeah I think so

[wind spade]

well but the fuel recipe produces polymer resin, not HOR

[frosty sail]

Ah

Well

I would personally say go with the diluted fuel if you have the alt

[ancient badge]

I dont have it

[frosty sail]

In that case I’d say built prepared to change to it

Cause that recipe is very good

[ancient badge]

wait so... I can make fuel with hor and with oil but it produces polymer resin too which I dont know what to do with it

throw it in a sink?

[wind spade]

yeah

or make some extra plastic and rubber from it

[ancient badge]

ok

[willow igloo]

Can someone link me to a design that makes the most rubber possible using recycled recipes? I cant make google understand my question or it brings up update 2 designs

[sand garnet]

you could try using https://satisfactorytools.com

[wind spade]

here you go, 22500 rubber https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=3fRF9QatrDcxVgK7Q4au

@willow igloo

[glacial hemlock]

@willow igloo or wiki rubber

[noble linden]

for nuclear power: What's the best method to bring the uranium to your fuel rod construction site (assume 1800/min), via train or directly belted?

[worthy copper]

this one youre sorta free on because its such a low volume material that running a train is about as much effort as running belts

if you have a rail station nearby for picking up other stuff to bring it to a similar location you could add a car there but i preferred to belt it

[noble linden]

I really like trains myself and would prefer to train it, but I'm worried about the radiation in "larger" quantities if that matters at all. Haven't really messed with it yet, just thinking about it

[worthy copper]

a traincar will have a non-negligible amoutn of radiation for sure. Just make sure its placed well

[noble linden]

well that's good, was planning on building it high so the train doesnt have to work to hard when it's carrying the material (flat track the whole way) so hopefully that is enough for the radiation

[sturdy lagoon]

So I was doing some stuff and bumped into a pretty fantastic exploit for nuclear waste

So I might actually do 1 or 2 reactors

[noble linden]

what does the exploit do?

[sturdy lagoon]

Gives you a dismantle crate with 100k storage capacity

[wind spade]

But it's pretty much useless as it still radiates

[sturdy lagoon]

Fill 5 industrial containers. Zap all at same time. Take all items out of the crate except 1

Saves a ton of space

[wind spade]

The map is giantic

[sturdy lagoon]

Not really

[wind spade]

And you usually put waste somewhere on the edge anyway

[sturdy lagoon]

Once you are in it, it's fairly small

[noble linden]

sounds like too much labor, I'm just gonna cordon this area off and fill it with containers. Maybe build a viewing tower or a train track through/around it to survey that magnificence

[wind spade]

Well the radiation radius is pretty much the same so 🤷‍♂️

[sturdy lagoon]

Would shrink the radius just a tiny bit

But you are right, minimal change there

It's still more appealing to me than many containers of waste

Only time will tell if it's enough to get me onto reactors

[wind spade]

Well it also needs to be checked regularly and waste filters when you do the thing

[obtuse zinc]

If we assume the more radiation in a box the more further and powerful it will be then eventually you will have to go back to the site and make another container

Then it will be more powerful

[noble linden]

I mean, for waste to really matter you need dozens of reactors, a single reactor running at full power would still take 80 hours to fill a single ISC

[obtuse zinc]

Meaning you need more filters as it burns

Depends if your a lunatic like LETSGAMEITOUT and you have 20

[noble linden]

Plan big, build small, prep yourself for the 472 reactors the map can handle (waste storage) and got from there lol

I'm gonna build the fuel rod factory once (94.5 rods/min) and sink the rods that dont get used, expand the number of reactors as needed

[obtuse zinc]

You can use rods as fuel for anything except jet packs

It last forever but you have the radiation problem

[noble linden]

I only use trains xD

[obtuse zinc]

Fair enough

Trains are fun to mess with

[noble linden]

well... and sometimes my truck... to move the concrete and rail material to make my train go more places haha

yea I love trains. When I discovered you could make track switches my mind was blown

[obtuse zinc]

It’s good for project building

Have a track to your new factory and have a service lane

[noble linden]

yup exactly, I love my heavy construction train xD it's a great mobile storage and building platform

[violet abyss]

Waiting for some one to mod in lead lined storage

[noble linden]

that would be cool, I think someone modded in fuel rods that dont have radiation

[obtuse zinc]

But where’s the fun in that

[noble linden]

its true

[obtuse zinc]

No radiation=no damage to the wildlife

[violet abyss]

Well in RL that kinda stuff doesn't spew rads all over.. So duno whats going on here

[noble linden]

https://ficsit.app/mod/CjfhzfJT1f7HMk
@violet abyss

[sturdy lagoon]

Waiting for some one to mod in lead lined storage
@violet abyss
We do use lead wall boards irl. Anywhere with an xray machine.
So might as well have it in SF

[noble linden]

I kinda like the idea of having to deal with the radiation though, very thematic

[oak harbor]

For nuclear waste, I've always thought it to be useful to use one of the giant pits/ holes in the map.
Just build down far enough and set up a monster storage facility. Could even do something similar on the ocean at the West end of the map or under the arch that the giant moth/bat flies under in the grasslands biome. I know theres SAM ore down there, but you can still mine it and bring it up and away from the radiation pit.

[noble linden]

you could use trains to put a storage place under the map... then trick your friends into going over top that area

[wanton axle]

LOL @noble linden, you're bad

[noble linden]

[wanton axle]

@noble linden with your luck you'd get knocked over the edge by some hostile beast and land on top of the containers LOL

[noble linden]

yes probably lol

[terse prism]

irl nuclear waste/rods are also stored in water pools as it dampens the radiation significantly. I'm guessing that SAM ore will bring a higher tier of power generation than nuclear though... but who knows?

[feral summit]

How much nuclear power is available on the map?

[hot ginkgo]

1.18 TW I believe.

Yeah. Just checked. Thats the max.

[sand garnet]

94.5 fuel rods

[snow lodge]

That's with the alternates?

[hot ginkgo]

Yeah.

[snow lodge]

Time to get that last bit of drivea

Is that using all the sulfur cuz I have my turbo fuel plant setup already

[hot ginkgo]

I dont think all of it. The limiting factor here is uranium.

[patent bough]

is turbo fuel actually more efficient than regular fuel these days or is it still bad.

[hot ginkgo]

Huge increase.

Especially with the diluted fuel loop.

[worthy copper]

full nuclear uses ~3.1k sulfur/min

[hot ginkgo]

22GW with 300 oil.

[patent bough]

that's pretty impressive.

[snow lodge]

its alot of refineries lol but well worth the time to setup

[sand garnet]

inb4 we get a packaging machine and the setup breaks for all of you lel

[willow igloo]

Eh, anytime there's a major factory breaking patch, I usually just restart

So nice to have a small base again to let it grow naturally

[snow lodge]

yeah i was thinking a new world anyway for next update

[hot ginkgo]

@sand garnet that new model for them looks slick, did you have any part in that?

[sand garnet]

nah

Im currently only doing stuff for refined power

worked on stuff for the recently released Modular Power update of Refined Power

[willow igloo]

We need some natural gas plants

[sand garnet]

yeah I'd like that

would allow us to use the toxic plants and pipes to our benefit

[willow igloo]

With an attached steam turbine. IRL there are power plants that are 3 natural gas turbines and then they run steam lines from them to a steam generator

Perfect use for gases if they introduce them, use for 2 common gasses in an easy setup.

[sand garnet]

there's already code for gases in the game