math-and-meta

[sturdy lagoon]

I like the idea of running transportation off of geo

[glacial geyser]

And I wouldn’t run gens off plastic+

[wind spade]

@worthy copper well this one is energy per item, while my graph is "how much power you save per building if you underclock to this amount". So basically trying to justify underclocking to saving power vs extra amount of work for that

[sturdy lagoon]

That way you will never get stuck. But train spikes don't interact well with geo

[worthy copper]

oh i see now

[glacial geyser]

I would rather slow production of fuel to match max potential demand

[worthy copper]

yeah that makes sense

[sturdy lagoon]

So far fuel and trains really paired well

[worthy copper]

the meaning of the 'per building' part didnt quite stick the first time around

[sturdy lagoon]

I considered under clocking coal plants

[glacial geyser]

The only thing IMO worth overclocking is extraction and energy

[sturdy lagoon]

To match pipelines better. But I haven't done numbers for that. So idk

[glacial geyser]

And I mean exclusively over-clocking not under

[sturdy lagoon]

Under clock

[glacial geyser]

Underclocking can be useful everywhere

[wind spade]

yeah the graph I did was basically to see when it's still justifiable to underclock to save power and when it's just a masochist's wet dream underclocking 100 buildings to 1%

[glacial geyser]

Overclocking is almost never that useful other than satiating impatience

Except in cases of energy and extraction

Even then you’re limited by resource purity and conveyance speed

[worthy copper]

It’s also good to spaghetti temporary production lines

[glacial geyser]

Done it because I knew I’d delete it eventually

But some people love spaghetti

Or item avalanches

[sturdy lagoon]

Idk about spagets. But sometimes I clip a little on something I know will only sit for 1 hour

[glacial geyser]

I try man. I try to enjoy spaghetti

I can only enjoy other people’s spaghetti

I can’t do it myself

My brain won’t let me do it. It’s a compulsion. But I can completely enjoy seeing and fully appreciate other people’s spaghetti factories

It’s like a work of art

[worthy copper]

I went into making my temp turbomotor production knowing it’d be spaghetti

It wound up much worse than I thought it would

[glacial geyser]

I experimented with new routing ideas

I have made a few manufactories each with different ways of routing conveyors.

Some I have essentially manifolded with a wall lined with conveyors and splitters off those lines to lifters

Then straight into the back

Another is up and over the back with lifters and a stack in front

Another is a balanced tree

Another has things routed in a false floor.

I like none of them. Manufacturers really tweak me

Too many inputs

I’d rather build refineries lol

[sturdy lagoon]

Manufacturers are easy with stacked conveyors imo

I use splitter #3, 4, 5, 6. Drop lifts down and it's done

Obviously on my high conveyor stack the material comes in at splitter #15 sometimes. But I drop it down to the lower levels before really going with the manifold

[terse prism]

The solution I used to the geothermal not using fuel and plastic production was to dedicate plastic production separately from fuel production

such that plastics sink all of the byproduct and aren't reliant on fuel consumption to avoid jamming

Turbofuel is also much larger than just 22gw... there was a comparison I saw, I forget where, that showed available power using all resources and fuel production came out to around 25% of all power production possible compared to nuclear (just with a much, much, much, larger footprint).

[misty pendant]

stacked conveyors as in with the stacked pole

or stacked as in clipped into each other

[civic forum]

Hello everyone. My friend @supple gull here would like to discuss the difference between a load balanced method of logistics and a overflow method. ```java
print("I know at least someone here can help explain why load balancing may be ideal over overflow when it comes to design principles.");

print("I'm sure someone here can say why overflow is effective on a local scale for barely any drawback. The main concern he has is about train throughput from a destination several kilometers away bringing resources to a facility with machines inside. Should this facility rely on overflow or load balancing to ensure the high number of simple resources are distributed to the various processing machines on the other end of a production line or if the pros of a load balanced ( waterfall ) is better both short term and long term? What are the pros and cons?");

[supple gull]

Key points of interest include the impact of internal machine buffers on feedthrough rates and whether the benefits for letting your machines warm up and run consistently is better than constantly letting them spin up and back down again - along with any power considerations either has.

[civic forum]

They would only spin up and power down if the particular machine wasn't being fed

[lost marsh]

I may be misunderstanding the terminology but if I understand what you're comparing, then loadbalancing distributes the bottleneck across several points in the assembly, where overflow methods eliminate bottlenecks as anytime pressure builds up, there's a means of releasing that pressure into some external storage

[civic forum]

if your rates through the pipe all match then you wont' have startup-shut downs. That's consistent with both methods.

[terse prism]

Is this a comparison between load balance and manifold perhaps? If I'm understanding correctly, overflow would be moving items either to a buffer or outside of the supply chain (storage/sinks).

[civic forum]

Load balancing: Load is split among machines, and is either build to fit a specific rate, or built ( with additional capacity ) an overflow system.
Overflow: The systems consuming are in series and once the first system fills, the priority of product moves to the next in series.

[supple gull]

It's mostly a comparison between series and parallel processing

as far as input feeds go.

[terse prism]

If you have a 780x2 input on a load balancer and a 780x2 input on a manifold, the efficiency is the same once the machines fill. Load balancer won't has as long of a warm-up time before the end machines start doing work, so it really depends on how large the manifold is for a comparison.

[lost marsh]

I mean just like real parallel processing, process scheduling is an issue and you'll never be able to give fair process time, metaphorically speaking

for example if you make a production chain thats designed to have one manufacturer running at 100% efficiency to produce 1.875 turbo motors per minute, you'll always have 1 of the 13? required constructors building too many wires, or 1 of the 6? oil pumps needed in the chain producing too much oil

[terse prism]

https://satisfactory.greeny.dev/machine-fill can be used to calculate the time it takes for a manifold to fill (100% efficiency on the last machine)

[lost marsh]

you need a buffer for overflows just cuz numbers work

[supple gull]

Are there not issues with machines all starting (and possibly stopping) at the same time?

[terse prism]

Ideally your machines will run continuously

there will be starting and no stopping

[civic forum]

So what about trains?

[terse prism]

You're limited by the output of the station. It's really a matter of whether or not your factory can consume the items or not... I'm not aware of a difference between manifold/load balance method there because there is a built in buffer at destination, on the train, and at the source.

Trains are really a way to conserve resources by building tracks instead of building TONs of conveyors to move things. The logistics once the materials make it to the factory are the exact same.

the bottleneck will be 780 on the belts or 300 on the pipes.

[civic forum]

each train freight platform has 2 inputs and 2 outputs, right? So what's the theoretical max per car? if that station is further away does that mean the max throughput is lower? Does dividing the resources between multiple train stations help with throughput in a case where distance is further? Or does making a train longer work better? Does loading a train in series work better than loading a train in parallel, is it the same, or is it simply different just like with the machines? What are the advantages and disadvantages of using one over the other for both short and long distance train destinations? @supple gull

[worthy copper]

manifold/overflow method will work fine for trains too

theres only 2 real cases to look at: in the first the machines use up the material fast enough that they can completely drain their buffers before the train arrives again, and when they can't keep up with the input unless theyre all running.

[supple gull]

It's basically an argument of lag time versus dead time isn't it?

[worthy copper]

In the first, youre still using material as fast as you can shove it in, so balancer vs manifold makes no difference.
In the second, all of your machines are running all the time, so again, balancer vs manifold makes no difference

[supple gull]

Pretty much, yeah.

[worthy copper]

if your concern is distributing resources across different types of product manufacturing when the system is limited by resource input, either you reduce your machinery/clocks so that it can self-balance with overflow, or you use a balancer like setup to distribute material between each product type, then manifold within those

or, again, just manifold everything and itll overflow once your first final product fills up 🙂

[civic forum]

What about outputting more than 780x2 items per minute from one train?

[worthy copper]

thats just straight up impossible

because the belts can only pull that fast, if the train is moving stuff even faster then its just gonna make incomplete dropoffs cause the freight platform is too full

[civic forum]

Is the throughput of each car less than 1560?

[supple gull]

My understanding of it is that trains mostly serve as a way of connecting points in a network together. There's going to be some lead time and if the buffer is too small for your processing , then you may have dead periods. The rate of belts putting into and out of the system is going to be the same right?

[worthy copper]

the only way to circumvent that is a train with multiple input stations and multiple output stations, but then youre spending 100+ out of the 246 available seconds (123 if each station is running 780x2...) docking/undocking

the throughput of each platform is slightly lower than 780x2 because of docking/undocking times actually, but are ultiamtely hard limited, for a single train you can get above that via multiple stops on both input and output well for a single train to run >780x2 you spend too much time docking 🙃

[civic forum]

So no matter how many cargo cars are on a train it will always only be able to move 1560 items per minute.

[supple gull]

Every dock you make increases the lead time, right? So that's exponentially increasing your lead time between deliveries.

[worthy copper]

uhh no. all of that is per car/platform

[terse prism]

per car

[worthy copper]

cause each additional car, which requires an additional freight platform, gives you 2 more i/o belts to work with

so a 3-car train has 6 input belts on the shipping end and 6 output belts on the receiving end

(so yeah i misread when you said one train, i read it as one train car)

but cause of how rigid the system is you can pretty much solve the whole output side platform by platform and itll be fine

[supple gull]

All you're really doing in these cases is connecting 2 i/o belts over a long distance with some delay period (that's usually faster and less resource/render intensive) between the two, right?

The problem doesn't change, it just moves.

and the problem is moot when constantly running.

[worthy copper]

yeah, in a way you can look at the train as a 'tunnel' between two belt endpoints (being the stations)

and if the trains too slow, your items/min will fall, just not smoothly

but smooth reduction in rate or not all the characteristics of manifold vs balancer remain the same

[civic forum]

@supple gull what was that you were saying about running the trains in series before? I can't remember

loading trains in parallel or loading trains in series.

[supple gull]

Just that if you're running relays and one fills up, it will block other types of cargo being delivered elsewhere by the same train because it's physically not on the train.

But if you're only moving one resource I don't see that being a problem, and if it's all being consumed anyway, same deal.

I suppose you could load different resources into each car and just use one set of rails though? 🤔

[worthy copper]

mixing item types in a train, as long as they are separated into different cars, is perfectly fine

if youre gonna mix item types within a car you better know what youre doing

[supple gull]

Yeah that was my thoughts, certainly.

That extra wire you make each production cycle will eventually block your train export if you mix resource types

[worthy copper]

i have one case where i'm doing that right now and its going to be smart split back out and all excess sunk

and you absolutely cannot run that particular car too slowly

[supple gull]

What do you do, just stick all the excess into a sink?

[worthy copper]

thats the plan

[supple gull]

I hope it rewards you with lots of coupons.

Oops. I hope I didn't just trigger something.

[worthy copper]

nah thats just dyno

it autoreacts to a lot of things, like epic

[civic forum]

Oh i thought you were saying something about the last car of the train not needing to be full or whatever before @supple gull. If the first car is fully filled and the last car is still missing spots for cargo, isn't that worse for throughput than if there are one or two spots not filled in each car? I was thinking you could use two belts for each train car to pull the resources, and it sounds like using more than one train would work better to avoid long train stops. Hmmmmmm. trains are

[worthy copper]

the station can self balance too

so like say youre running a bunch of stuff into the station and youre loading the first platform too fast and the second too slowly (but the belts are balanced so they can output to either station)

then your first station will fill up on both ends faster (assuming the train is fast enough...), which jams it and then you just overflow to the second station

as long as you make sure your input belts never get stopped up youre fine

[supple gull]

Doesn't your input stalling mean that you have set your conveyor belts up inefficiently though?

[civic forum]

Probably?

[bright remnant]

Question: is there a calculator for satisfactory to know how many constructors or smelters i would need for lets say: iron plates

[manic oak]

I don't really know of a program that does it for you, but it shouldn't be too hard to figure out on your own. Let's say I'm making iron plates with the base recipe: that's 30 iron ingots per minute. If I'm starting in the grass lands, there's 3 normal iron nodes which each give 60 iron ore per minute with tier 1 miners. With the right smelter setup, you'll have 60 iron ingots per minute, which means you can run two iron plate constructors.

There's more complicated setups for things like screws, where you'll need 2 iron rod facilities for every 3 screw facilities, but each assembling machine displays the amount of a resource you need per minute under the resource.

[terse prism]

Yes

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/

[manic oak]

I stand corrected

[terse prism]

There are other tools linked in the Pins for this channel as well

[glacial hemlock]

@bright remnant rain world lol

[worthy copper]

that calc is really good for lots of high-complexity item

like how many pure copper refineries are you gonna need for 94.5 nuclear fuel rods/min

[glacial geyser]

It has got gas though

Resource rarity and thus resource use preference is not determined by available amounts you define. It’s static rn

So if you want to use a specific recipe, uncheck the other recipes you don’t want to use to craft the item including the basic variant

Otherwise it will make some stupid complex factories

[wind spade]

I still prefer complex but efficient factories 😉

[glacial hemlock]

I like the embetter calculator that even mix basic and alt recipes to reach the max

[wind spade]

Mine can do that too 🤔

[terse prism]

It does quite often as far as I can tell

[noble linden]

Hey @wind spade what do you think about adding a feature that lets you freehand a factory in the production calculator? Add and remove buildings, etc

[wind spade]

not 100% sure what do you mean by that

if you add buildings, you need to underclock them to match the target production rate

[noble linden]

Basically a function that lets you toy around with the production line, so no target production, just lets you "build" a factory in 2D

Idk if that's possible with your tool or not, just thought I'd suggest it

[wind spade]

hmmm

I guess that would be pretty hard to do

but could be a nice thing

[muted crypt]

could you set it up to use common "efficient setups" for resource loops, like if you want to use the 300 crude -> 900 plastic/rubber setup and have it display that, with the plastic/rubber output going to whatever

[wind spade]

there's plan to have a "workshop" of people's builds

like a collection of the shared links

[muted crypt]

nice

[naive ingot]

If you have the spare materials and space, is there any reason to not replace a smelter that works at 100% with 10 smelters each downclocked to 10%?

[sand garnet]

more effort.

I'm lazy 😛

[muted crypt]

More effort, but only like 25% of the power consumption

[sturdy lagoon]

greeny posted a graph yesterday

for under clocked energy savings

[naive ingot]

Right, I'm thinking of doing something like this for my next fresh playthrough. Unlock overclocking ASAP and have boatloads of underclocked production buildings during the biomass burning phase to maximize my energy efficiency.

Then just clock them up as I get and expand coal.

[glacial hemlock]

@naive ingot your statement contradict itself.. if you want to unlock everything ASAP you should not be underclocking anything imo

[sand garnet]

yeah underclocked = more building = slower progress

[wind spade]

but he said "unlock overclocking ASAP", not "unlock everything ASAP"

[glacial hemlock]

Lol, i think i am drunk... thanks!

[sand garnet]

ha yeah nice

[glacial hemlock]

Just now i realized F11 = switch between fullscreen and window, and that messed up my 2package% and i have to gave that up

Not sure if single player 3package% is feasible, but 10 hours non stop is insane.

[sand garnet]

has that been done?

[glacial hemlock]

Yes. Currently the world has only single record submitted. 10 hours for the 3rd Space elevator delivery

[sand garnet]

i respect that

I think it takes a lot of planning

[glacial hemlock]

Because it is laughable while it is actually not

[sand garnet]

lol is actually the dutch word for fun

which by itself is lol-worthy

[glacial hemlock]

~ ~ lol ~ ~

How about that? Lol on a sea

lol

[sturdy lagoon]

Statue races would be cool

I might try that package 3 soon. But idk when lol

[terse prism]

Speedrun for who can get the fastest nut?

[wind spade]

checks if this is satisfactory or nsfw channel

[sturdy lagoon]

Speedrun for who can get the fastest nut?
@terse prism
Maybe we could start with an adequate pioneering or something

[worthy copper]

speedrunning to golden nut would be...
nuts.

[lost heart]

people speed run this game?

[sand garnet]

they do

the utter lunatics that they are lmao

[lost heart]

Im 30 hours in my save and barely half way in

[worthy copper]

people have been speedrunning to x space elevator shipments

[sand garnet]

I have mad respect for the people who do 2package% and 3package%

[sturdy lagoon]

I'm getting a strategy in place for adequate pioneer statue 😁

Sort of a warm up for packages I guess

It's a bit of a different approach for sinking though

[sturdy lagoon]

What is the formula for awesome coupons?

[glacial hemlock]

Wiki

[sturdy lagoon]

I've been looking

[glacial hemlock]

Awesome sink page

[sturdy lagoon]

Each successive Coupon requires more points to be printed.

That is not specific lol

Oh got it

[glacial hemlock]

Formula is there

[sturdy lagoon]

Yeah found it thank you lol

[glacial hemlock]

👍 😆

Btw thanks for highlight, i added a link to the coupon page as well

[bright remnant]

how do you guys calculate the ratios for all the resources. for example how many smelters or constructor you need depending on the node

[terse prism]

look at the output of the miner, divide by the input of that resource in the smelter

https://satisfactory.gamepedia.com/Miner

[worthy copper]

for much more complicated stuff greeny's calculator helps out with the math

at https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production

[timber wharf]

damn that website is gonna be a big help thanks

[grand pendant]

@bright remnant If you open the Ficsit Quick Search (N by default), it can do calculations

[willow igloo]

Yep, I use it all the time to figure out how long my assembly line should be

[short perch]

has anyone played around with the 900 rubber/plastic from 300 crude oil setup?

[wind spade]

Yeah it's pretty easy

[short perch]

Yeah, i've already done the 22 GW turbo gen setup, but i'm trying to make the numbers pretty. I've landed on 700/200 or 520/380 which results in both having 15/17 plastic/rubber refineries

just curious if anyone else landed at those numbers and if they wanted to share their learning experiences

another option is 640/260 which gives 16/16 refineries, and that's tidy, but redirecting the plastic output b ack to the rubber gets funky and isn't an even number, but i guess i could just use a smart splitter

[wind spade]

Or you can underclock and not care about perfect ratio xD

[short perch]

good talk

[willow igloo]

In the early stages of oil I will make 2 factories, one for perfect ratio for rubber and another for perfect plastic and then let the same oil pipe hit both factories. When the plastic overfills, I get more rubber and vice versa

That covers me til I make my end game top down focused factories (60 turbomotors per minute)

In the midgame you only need enough material to unlock tech and to start building

[misty pendant]

what are the performance effects of just storing infinite nuclear waste

is nuclear power worth doing if the waste issue is fundamentally unsustainable?

[wraith notch]

just make a far away ISC chain and store it there

[misty pendant]

i mean yes practically speaking you probably won't fill up before you stop playing the game but the unscalability of it is scary

[worthy copper]

you can store waste such that it wont be relevant for your entire life

its fine

[wraith notch]

just chain up like 1200 ISCs and you'll never see the end of it

1200 ISCs is about 200 hours at maximum efficiency and 100% usage of the map's uranium

[worthy copper]

and has a radiation radius of... ~530m, which is pretty easy to put out over the ocean and not care about

go farther and you can go much, much longer

another 50m or so doubles the amount you can stor

[misty pendant]

yes but the environment 😢

[wraith notch]

Chernobyl still has wildlife in the exclusion zone...

[worthy copper]

i dont see any fish in that ocean

[misty pendant]

feature request: fish and also fishing

[wraith notch]

I'd rather get blueprinting than fishing

though the idea of a fish stew sounds amazing

[sand garnet]

suggest it on the QA site dean

[misty pendant]

i'm mostly kidding... i think every game has too much fishing overall lol

[edgy imp]

We just had this discussion in the Q&H channel, and Crocketeer calculated that storing the waste far west or east gives you over 7 years 24/7/365 game play, but storing north is the way to go with 190K years before you feel it. :_)

Hmm... can we build out over the void in the south-east? I've never tried, and that could be a good nuclear waste storage location since there's literally nothing there.

Might need to grab some cement and go play. o.O

[worthy copper]

the death-zone cuts that area off a bit more

but if you get enough inhalers and build fast...

[edgy imp]

Oh, bummer, kinda like No Man's Island in the south west? It you map out the far west death zone that island cuts in sharply.

[worthy copper]

(for reference )

[edgy imp]

Nice! Snagging that for future glancing. 🙂

[terse prism]

Meaning that whole blue border is instant death>?

[worthy copper]

if you go past it you start taking damage over time

[terse prism]

There is also the vertical waste solution to consider, as the build height being ~2k means you have a substantial distance before radiation reaches ground level

[worthy copper]

only specifically the east border is instadeath

[terse prism]

gotcha, that is helpful!

[worthy copper]

the damage over time is... 5hp/sec apparently

[terse prism]

62.5 foundations = 500m, right?

[worthy copper]

a foundation is 8m across

[terse prism]

so even if you stored waste near the uranium deposits, you'd have a substantial amount of time before it irradiates beyond the caves, right? and it isn't like you should need to go back to them

[worthy copper]

so... that math looks right

[terse prism]

If only we could store it underwater, like in real life...

[wraith notch]

I want a measuring tape in-game pls

[worthy copper]

im planning on using the north sea cause not only its a good spot to store waste, but i can put all my reactors over the ocean with the extractors as well

[terse prism]

one grid click is 1m, one foundation is 8m, there you go lol

[wind spade]

1 foundation = 8 meters

[terse prism]

the satisfactory map has a measuring tape on it too i think

or at least one of them did online

[grand pendant]

The calculator map has a distance tool, yeah

[noble leaf]

ok, so these are mergers coming off a huge line of machines (example), where do u think i should put the smart splitter at to have the over flow add on to the next group of machine outputs? somewhere near the end of the mergers? near the beginning? somewhere in the middle?

[keen patio]

@worthy copper that map may not be entirely accurate any more; the northern border if starting at the North/Western start zone... if you swim even half the distance to that maps 'north wall', you will suddenly fall into an abyss. The water is visually there, but you stop swimming and just fall.

[worthy copper]

But can you keep building foundations out there?

and with those, keep going without hitting the damage-zone

[keen patio]

Sorry I just wanted to make it clear that there is a risk of death swimming out there before the edge of that map

if you stay on floating foundations, you are right.

[worthy copper]

yeah i think thats a good disclaimer, i actually didnt know about that myself

[glacial hemlock]

@noble leaf near the end

[fresh elm]

there are a couple places like that

[daring sonnet]

about fuel energy, does it bother anyone that rubber gives double output of heavy oil residue? Also would you recommend building fuel from heavy oil residue to avoid the need of water to make plastic/rubber in a very tall structure?

[worthy copper]

when making fuel people ususally use the HOR alt recipe to make even more

but if you dont have it, rubbers the next best alternative if you have diluted fuel

[daring sonnet]

thanks. do you mean the alt that gives 4 hor and 2 resin?

[worthy copper]

yeah

[keen patio]

Theres also a Resin +.. water? recipe for fabric I think @daring sonnet

Yep! https://www.satisfactorytools.com/codex/items/fabric

[daring sonnet]

oh nice. I never noticed the importance of alts before. do you feel they are game changing or just more suitable for some setups?

[worthy copper]

they are absolutely gamechanging

[wind spade]

If you go big, they are

[worthy copper]

also heavy encased frames #screwscrews

[charred ledge]

hmm im trying to set up 2 assemblers each for rotors and reinforced ip the ip takes 120 both

or 60

the rotors will take 100 each

so 200

i need 320 screws and split them into these numbers

but that will happen when i get steel unlocked

[keen patio]

Im watching a guy stream 5 coal gens (only source of power), with 1 water extractor.. No overclocks.. 375 megawatts..

But by my math, that ONE water extractor should only be able to supply 24 out of 45 water for each coal gen... or 53%... or ~199 megawatts... but their power grid is using 235 and not cutting out... What is going on?

Everything is full on coal (overfilled), each coal gen is full on its internal water... The water extractor itself never has any water in it as its outputting all of it away I guess.

[glacial hemlock]

@keen patio enjoy the power trip! Btw more info can be found on wiki

[keen patio]

.. more info.. about this glitch?

[glacial hemlock]

No that is not a glitch. He probably have more than 5 generator built at somewhere else, or he already overclocked his extractor, or he has a water tank hidden somewhere

[keen patio]

Nope.. saw extractor, saw connected power grid. 5 coal gens does =375, which is what his grid reported as his capacity. Saw all water 'tanks' within each structure.

[glacial hemlock]

It is simple, the power will always trip if the water is not enough

[keen patio]

No overclocks throughout; and he wasnt trying to hide anything

[glacial hemlock]

Video link

[keen patio]

we just happened to talk about coal and he mentioned it... I unfortunately dont have any proof; I didnt follow the stream and dont recall his username.

but I mean hey; I'll take a bug that gives me extra water any day.. just figured Id toss it in here if someone else could figure out whats up

[glacial hemlock]

Ok,water extractor isn't that expensive anyway, just stick to the golden 3:8 ratio and you are fine.

[keen patio]

Im not asking how to build coal; I am well past coal.. I am just reporting what I saw and had the guy look over (because he was also concerned and believed my math)

shrug

[glacial hemlock]

Hmm, interesting

[sand garnet]

it's just that if capacity isnt used you can hook up as many coal gens as you want

its not a bug

it's how power works in the game

the setup will fail when you have more machines requiring the power, causing the generators to require more water, which the water extractor will not be able to provide.@keen patio

at that point the capacity will start dropping over time as more and more generators shut down because they dont get enough water

it's basically a false-positive

[keen patio]

... yes. and by my math a 120 water extractor split 5 ways to 5 gens is 24 water out of the max 45 water.. or 53%..

53% of 375 megawatts is ~199 MW

they were using 235+ megawatts.

I understand the setup will fail.

My point is; to stress again; that it WAS NOT failing when it should have been.

[sand garnet]

it isnt a perfect split

it's like a manifold, basically

stuff in the front will fill up before the rest does

and they also dont produce power according to the water they take in

[keen patio]

sure.. but even if it was giving 3 water extractors the almost full water amount and the rest nothing.. isnt that still ~199 MW?

and they also dont produce power according to the water they take in
@sand garnet huh?

[sand garnet]

3x75

basically, if there's water in the tank, they can provide 100% of their power

so 75mw per generator

[keen patio]

yes, but its less then 3x 75.. because 45x3 = 135 water, and its only getting 120 water...

[sand garnet]

it doesnt matter if theres 10 water or 100 water in the internal buffer

[glacial hemlock]

@keen patio what i suspect is either

1. The 235 you see is not consistently consumed
2. The small amount of stored water in generators are being drained slowly

[sand garnet]

water is water, it just determines how long that water will last.

[keen patio]

120/135 needed water = 88.88% = 200 megawatts out of a max of 225 from 3 coal power.

[sand garnet]

yeah thats not how power works in this game

[keen patio]

huh?

[sand garnet]

power is a binary state

[keen patio]

so.. what does the needed water amount listed on coal gens mean?

[sand garnet]

it's either on, or off.

lets simplify it to 1 generator

a coal gen = 75mw of power capacity

[keen patio]

1 Coal gen; supposedly needs 45 water.. and 15 coal/sec to work at 100%.

[sand garnet]

right

now lets say you only need 25MW of power for your factory

that's 33%

[keen patio]

so my expectation would be that it needs 33% of 45 water per sec, yes?

[sand garnet]

this means that the generator only needs to provide 25mw as well

which means that each unit of resource gets used at 33% the regular rate as well

[glacial hemlock]

@sand garnet he is well understood the power concept in game, he is asking why it can deliver 235MW When it is supposed to be capped at 200MW (and we ignore the 375 there)

[keen patio]

so.. 15 water/sec ? (Im ignoring coal primarily because he had it being fed in at like 270 on a mk3 belt for 5 generators; it was overkill and definitely not the problem.

[sand garnet]

right but the capacity isnt tied to the amount of resources in the system

it's tied to the amount of generators with any amount of resources in their buffers

[glacial hemlock]

That's what i am suspect. The water in each coal generator could be slowly draining and the video poster might not be awared of it

[sand garnet]

if I have 120 generators each with 1 water and 1 coal, I can provide 120x75MW of power for that amount of time

[keen patio]

'that amount of time' ?

oh, the time it takes.. eg 1/45th of a second

[sand garnet]

the amount of time tied to how much power is used by the machines in my factory

yeah, assuming the factory is at full load, it would be 1/45 of a minute

[keen patio]

sorry, minute, duh.

[glacial hemlock]

@keen patio if you can get the power graph screenshot and the overview of his setup it would be much easier to analyze

[sand garnet]

but if its not, and the factory is only requiring 50% of max capacity power, it will be 2/45 of a minute

[keen patio]

but that still doesn't make sense to me; this wasn't a 'oh I randomly spiked above 200 and expected power outage'.. he was consistently above 220.

Unfortunately I can't.. I was just poking through random streams.. and I have no idea what the user name was..

[sand garnet]

consistently being 'the buffer is still full enough'

its not an 'if' but a 'when' the grid will fail

[keen patio]

Maybe simplifying my question here: I have 1 water extractor, and 4, or 400, or 400,000 coal generators, but all on the same water loop.

My math says this should only supply ~200 mw of power.

I am CONSISTENTLY using 220 MW of power, spiking up to 235, regularly.

Why is this working, when the system should be running out of water? (10+minutes, minimum at 220+ MW.

[glacial hemlock]

@keen patio i think you better forgot about that and it won't matter too much to the normal gameplay.

[keen patio]

((Sorry, to edit the above; its not 'I am'.. its 'He was'.

[glacial hemlock]

Or you could build one for youself and test about that (why not?)

[sand garnet]

your understanding of the game mechanic is wrong

the amount of water does not determine the power

[keen patio]

but it does require water at a set amount of it.. per x time frame.. which is listed at 45/minute.. and being provided at much less then that?

[sand garnet]

what determines the capacity and production is how many machines have internal buffers with resources to provide said power

[keen patio]

true; and I do understand what you mean by buffers; Ive seen the interface within each generator.. and believe I grasp what you mean clearly.

but I also understand that 'time' should have drained these buffers, and didn't.

[sand garnet]

if you let internal buffers fill up, you've created some extended period of time where you get a false-positive power capacity and production

[keen patio]

agreed.

I was able to watch the water extractors internal buffer; which stayed at 0, or flickered to 0.1 and then emptied instantly, so I know it wasn't able to backfill back down to the extractor.

[glacial hemlock]

He is exceeding by roughly 10%, or 4.5m3/min of flow. I estimate the buffers would be drained within 12mins

[sand garnet]

yeah, time should have, but depending on if there's buffers which can replenish the generators with resources, and if there's other generators somewhere who extend the lifetime of the resources, and lastly if the factory is requiring a lot of max power, it all affects the duration of the internal buffers being drained

[keen patio]

so basically the answer is; somehow, they weren't using the internal buffers on the coal generators (I saw their internal buffers, they were full)

[glacial hemlock]

@keen patio is he playing modded game?

[sand garnet]

10% isnt much in the general scheme of things

but yeah there's mods with nopower cheats as well, which bypass any usage of generators

[keen patio]

no, vanilla, and no other power sources (it was bragged that thye got coal and deconstructed all their biomas gens once connected)

[sand garnet]

if you can provide a screenshot of the power UI we can tell you whats going on

[keen patio]

but that is true; it could have been a modified save file and he didn't tell me.

I do doubt that was the case.. he didn't strike me as the type (we talked a bit about no-spoilers requests)

I can't unfortunately.. but obviously the internal buffers of the coal gens weren't being used, for whatever reason.

do you happen to know the 'time' displayed in the power graph from left to right? is that 10 minutes or?

either way @sand garnet (and @glacial hemlock ), thank you for the discussion; I had forgotten about the internal buffers on each device.

[glacial hemlock]

👍

[keen patio]

I mean I knew they existed, but forgot about their potential impact*

[glacial hemlock]

Basically a buffer delays any sort of short term logistics issue

[keen patio]

as long as it doesnt go over the full max capacity right? if that happens the circuit trips instantly?

[glacial hemlock]

Yeah, in this case, 375

[keen patio]

((never had that occur to me outside of a biomass burner running out of fuel, I think.

[glacial hemlock]

Tripping a biomass cluster isn't a big problem. Tripping a fuel/nuclear setup is.

[willow igloo]

I do this for my first few coal plants

780 belt of coal feeds 52 generators but I'm near capacity on my power I don't want to hit all of my extraflctors at once so I'll just hook up one extractor at a time and as the power slowly increases it's safe to connect the rest

Also random question, do you guys balance your coal as 3 water extractors over 8 generators or do you guys just round up your ratio to 1 extractor to 2 generators and underclock it to 90 water per min?

[sturdy lagoon]

I'm curious. And will try to catch up on this convo

[bitter tree]

Just build bigger Sketchy : )

I started a new world yesterday. I am just now building a big network of Coal Genny's

I had hooked up 3 last night to get it through the night .. but now I am going BIG!

[sturdy lagoon]

I have to assume that the coal generators were not under any sort of load.

Or like Jcool mentioned. He is hiding water supply lol

[bitter tree]

If my math is correct.. Mk 2 Miner on normal node pulls up 120 coal per minute. Coal Gen uses 1 coal every 4sec. So 15 coal per minute per Genny. That is 8 Coal Genny's per line.

[sturdy lagoon]

That is correct

[bitter tree]

8 Coal Genny's use 45m^3 of water per min, water extractor pulls up 120/min. So 8*45 = 360. So makes it an even 3 Water Extractors per 8 Coal Genny's

Mk 4 carries 480, Mk 2 carries 120. So you'd have to use Mk 3 or better coming off a splitter that has a Mk 4 feeding it

[sturdy lagoon]

You can scale down your belts as you split

It really depends on the material demand if the structure

[bitter tree]

You CAN, but you don't HAVE TO

[sturdy lagoon]

You can always mk1 in and out if constructors

It's cheaper

[tidal ledge]

are there any reprecautions to the liquid pump exceeding safe lift by 2?

as in the gauge hit 22 but i still have full 300 m^3/min

[sturdy lagoon]

If the gauge stays up you are fine

[tidal ledge]

aight thanks

[sturdy lagoon]

If the needle drops or bounces you are going too far

[tidal ledge]

it

it's stable on my end so i think im in the good still

[sturdy lagoon]

I have a really wild Idea I might do when I really need water

I'm going to do an offset stack of liquid train stations. Each one pumping into the next one up

At 25mw per train station I would only need 6+ water lines yo make it worth

And that 25mw per station will feed x amount of stations

Physically big. But fairly simple tbh

Just a lot of foundations and a lot of stations

[bitter tree]

I am trying to figure out the Logistics of 6 Water Extractors going to 16 Coal Genny's

[sturdy lagoon]

I think an overflow is almost always good. Why have a line stop if you can sink the extra

[frosty sail]

I mean

[sturdy lagoon]

Use a smart splitter

Set it to overflow only

[frosty sail]

You don’t want to sink an output unless you either are building it to sink it or have extra/overflow

[sturdy lagoon]

I have never used on

[tidal ledge]

wait what's the difference between smart and programmable splitters actually?

[sturdy lagoon]

I used about 6 smart splitters on a mixed product train route

[frosty sail]

Programmable can have multiple outputs per side

[tidal ledge]

ah i see

[frosty sail]

Smart can only have one

I think

[sturdy lagoon]

But other than that I just use norms

I don't like mixed belts

[frosty sail]

I avoid mixed belts

[sturdy lagoon]

Belt speed determine production capacity

[frosty sail]

They aren’t right in the game

No set item per min on them

[tidal ledge]

no sushi belting like in factorio

[sturdy lagoon]

So adding more production to a single belt is counter productive

[frosty sail]

The only time I’m ok with it is on storage systems

But I rarely do it the either

[sturdy lagoon]

Yeah I just use smart splitters for unloading stations. It's pretty safe like that

I make 6 pickup and drop offs on 1 train. If any station is overloaded the others sort the items to the side

[stoic ingot]

guys, what's your biggest HMF single setup production?

I'm working on a setup, that will feed 18 manufacturers (100%) with 50,4/min output

[bitter tree]

I think I figured out the logistics for having 3 water extractors feed 8 Coal Genny's.. I take 2 of them, merging into 2 pipeline. The 3rd Extractor, I ran along side/on top of the first line, and at the end, have pipeline 2 feed into pipeline 1, feeding it from the other end.
Do you think that would work y'all?

[sturdy lagoon]

3 manufacturers

[stoic ingot]

it's based on 3 normal coal nodes (250%)

[sturdy lagoon]

They take screws at 200ppm

[stoic ingot]

currently I have 3 250% manuf-s but they stop often becuase steel pipes prod. fails to feed

@bitter tree only one way to find out 🙂

[bitter tree]

Yep, had to run back to my base to get more Iron Plates for the Stackable pipeline supports

[sturdy lagoon]

currently I have 3 250% manuf-s but they stop often becuase steel pipes prod. fails to feed
@stoic ingot
For me it's almost always the encased beams holding me back

Ohhhh that's what I will do today

[stoic ingot]

yeah, I just found out the calculations I made are wrong b'cuz I didn't take steel frames into consideration...

[sturdy lagoon]

I'm switching to encased pipes

[charred ledge]

ah yes

[bitter tree]

@stoic ingot If you have your Manuf at 250% but they aren't running constantly.. Either turn down the speed or increase the steel production.

[charred ledge]

i can double this

[sturdy lagoon]

Finally somebody building in the same area as me

[charred ledge]

nothern forest?

[stoic ingot]

@bitter tree I know, that's why I'm working on a brand new setup

[sturdy lagoon]

Random you can pull the coal from the side you are standing on also

[charred ledge]

yep

thats for steel

once i get it of course

[sturdy lagoon]

I have my gens on almost the exact same spot

[charred ledge]

lol

[sturdy lagoon]

I use the coal behind you for power

[charred ledge]

if i want i can double this rn

[sturdy lagoon]

And the coal in the valley goes to steel

[charred ledge]

yep

same planning

[stoic ingot]

@charred ledge you made it 🙂 remember about adding sulphur into the equation

[sturdy lagoon]

Since there's an iron node up on the mountain

[charred ledge]

@stoic ingot will do

[sturdy lagoon]

You can lift it down and make steel in that valley

Finally a rocky desert friend 😁

Later on you will probably want to use 1 if the coals for gunpowder

Since sulfur is very close by

[bitter tree]

This is my WIP for Coal Genny's. I ran out of Iron Plates again and need to run back to my base to get more LOL

I will have to put some pipeline pumps to get them up that high, I know.. But there are 3 Normal coal veins there (previously I only thought there were 2, until I was clear cutting for space and found the 3rd)

So I can add in another row of 8 Genny's later. Those 16 will be MORE then enough for me for awhile : )
I also have to redo my entire base layout, now that I have Mk 2 Miners : )

I just started with a complete mess to get me started.. Time for a complete taredown when I am finished with the Genny's

[charred ledge]

@bitter tree follow my example or modify it

each side only needs 120 per min

so only 2 normal nodes

by overclocking it to 200%

that is if you want too

and it will fit on mk2 belts @bitter tree

yep

nope

by adding kids to the equation

[lime pilot]

sounds like a plan

[bitter tree]

oof .. an idea just hit me like a ton of bricks for my Coal Genny setup

3 Normal Coal nodes. Mk 2 miner pulls 120/min. But if I overclock each to 250%, they make 300/min. At peak, a Coal Genny can use 15 coal/min. So that means a single coal line could feed 20 Coal Genny's.

So I could sustain 60 Coal Genny's.. Oof

Would need 23 Water Extractors to sustain the 60 Genny's. I think I better go back to bed before my head swells up

The nickname has been around since at least World War 2.

[sturdy lagoon]

It's so irl

[bitter tree]

With the idea of overclocking the coal miners, I now have to rethink my entire layout

I need more sleep if I am going to tackle this .. 4hrs of sleep isn't enough

[sturdy lagoon]

A steam train

Would need a station like the truck station

I'm a stacker

Ah ic

Yeah it's tight

I have gone on about trucks a couple times lol

I feel like I really got burned by my tractor circuit

I put a ton of time and resources into tractors early on

Shipping my early steel

And ended up with 6 tractor pile ups

Tractors stuck on invisible obstacles and stuff

So I'm just a grump towards them

I probably set the exact criteria to cause a fail. My luck

[misty pendant]

the wiki says that vehicles don't ever disappear even if they fall into the abyss

so that tractor will be taking up space somewhere forever?

like not on your compass disappeared?

[frosty sail]

thats why you run the tractor paths away from your base

[misty pendant]

maybe it fell through the ground

[frosty sail]

the never crash as the just follow your lin exactly

[sturdy lagoon]

Well I'm back to cheating my power grid lol

I'm not consuming all my fuel material right now. So I just jammed on a couple extra generators to trim the % even lower

I had a legitimate capacity for a couple days 🤷‍♂️

[sand garnet]

@misty pendant vehicles disappear in the void unless they contain nuclear waste

[misty pendant]

oic

is that a special rule

[noble linden]

@bitter tree a single pure node with a mk3 overclocked to 160% i think (max output for mk5 belts) will net you 52 gennys... something to look forward to lol

[wanton axle]

@noble linden, if I had that set up, I'd have fencing around those platforms to make it harder to accidentally fall off into the void LOL - Been there, done that, I've now got PTSD because of it

[noble linden]

probably a good idea, you cant see it really in this picture but i have fencing around the hole I'm feeding the coal up through xD just never got around to the rest of it haha

I also just noticed I counted wrong on the smaller 12 genny platform and now the spacing between the two isnt the same

cant unsee

[wanton axle]

not nice when you wake up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat because you're reliving falling into the void

[noble linden]

at least its not like MC and you can get your stuff back if you fall in lol

[bitter tree]

You can put a layer of platform under it as well, and spray it a color that stands out. So if you accidently take up a floor, you'll see the color (like bright pink) and instantly know you took some flooring out.. That with walls going way up : )

[noble linden]

I do not recommend building over the void without a jetpack though lol

[wanton axle]

True @bitter tree, but my hub was in the dune desert at the time - that's a long way to run when you don't have a hyper tube to get back there

errr @noble linden I meant lol

[noble linden]

lol yea, that would suck without gear

[wanton axle]

I have a basic factory in every starting zone in my main game

[bitter tree]

You can do a project, putting platforms down over ALL the voids in the world. Find the edge of the map, put a wall up. That way when you want to build out in the future, you won't have to worry about falling in : )

[wanton axle]

LOL

[noble linden]

lol yea, just dying of fall damage

[wanton axle]

Well, I do have one cheat - no fall damage mod, but that don't stop you from dying when you fall into the void - I just like jumping from high places, when I know there's a floor to land on LOL

[bitter tree]

use Blade Runners. You'll only go to half a bubble of health no matter how high you fall from. Or Jet Pack : )

[worthy copper]

you can survive the fall with low hp even without bladerunners

[bitter tree]

Use the jet pack when you get closer to the ground, and you're good

[worthy copper]

but it does require full hp always

[bitter tree]

If you fall from SUPER high up, you'll die w/o blade runners

[worthy copper]

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/satisfactory_gamepedia_en/images/a/af/Fall_damage_data.png/revision/latest?cb=20200730135560 nop

caps at 97 w/o bladerunners

[noble linden]

if i'm reading that right you will cap out damage with blade runners above without blade runners first? lol

[worthy copper]

yep

in a very narrow range youll take more damage with bladerunners

[noble linden]

lmao

[wanton axle]

I have died while wearing bladerunners when falling LOL

[noble linden]

probs didnt have full health

looks like you can never die from fall damage when you have full health

[wanton axle]

I was down 1/2 bar from max LOL

[worthy copper]

that isnt above 98

[wanton axle]

I didn't make note of the co-ordinates, but I once fell THROUGH the map and died LOL

[worthy copper]

dune desert, just over the top of a dune?

[noble linden]

is this augmented at all by speed? I feel like I've seen people killed when launched from hypertoop cannons at full health

[worthy copper]

yeah the damage is actually based off of velocity

so if you shoot yourself out of a tube at superspeed into the ground you can die

[wanton axle]

With my luck I'd make a crater as well LOL

[noble linden]

ah so if this chart kept going we might see it rise to 100? Right now it just looks like 97 and 96 are the absolute max

[worthy copper]

it might

with the way it levels off id probably stop using height and start using # of cannon launchers into the ground to see lol

[wanton axle]

lol

[charred ledge]

Can anyone tell me how can i split a 270 line into 9 smelters

[keen patio]

Manifold line with mk3 belt?

[charred ledge]

Idk if it works

[worthy copper]

i mean if you set it up correctly itll work

[charred ledge]

Planning to unlock steel

And use some mk2 belts

[keen patio]

@charred ledge

black lines = smelters.

you could do a straight column of 9 as well if you want, but you get the idea.

[sharp crow]

im curious as to why you put some smelters further to the right than others?

[keen patio]

@sharp crow so by seperating the initial line of smelters by 2, you can fit conveyors between them; basically it shortens the 'line' and makes the total smelters 'look' more square, instead of a long row/column.

its aesthetic.

[worthy copper]

can also double manifold to get that square look with a bit less belt

[sharp crow]

fair enough, but smelters are so thin that the difference between a smelter and a belt isn't much
i could understand doing that with constructors

[keen patio]

@worthy copper true, but cant double manifold an odd number without it looking weird.

[worthy copper]

ocd aint my problem 😛

[keen patio]

lol!

@sharp crow you aren't wrong.. its just a case of I saw it done, liked the look, and now I emulate it in my designs... my MS Paint drawing really doesn't do it justice.... I just got annoyed with long rows of 9, and eventually 16 (unless double manifolding it by choice) smelters.

[sharp crow]

ye that makes sense, i just spend too much time worrying about the total space stuff takes up ig

[wind spade]

true, but cant double manifold an odd number without it looking weird.
@keen patio you can, just underclock last to 50% and build one more with 50%

[keen patio]

pfft.

[wind spade]

you even save on power

[sharp crow]

if possible, it's better to spread the underclocking evenly among the machines

[keen patio]

stop shooting holes in my aesthetics!

[wind spade]

or that

[worthy copper]

spreading underclocking is 'i hate my life' mode though

unless it gives you a sweet sweet 1-1

[sharp crow]

no it's not
i do it because it makes everything feel more even

also i always scale my production up until i don't have to worry about fractions of percents
turbofuel is gonna be F U N

[worthy copper]

well i'd definitely hate to clock every machine in a 50+ building factory

[keen patio]

oh.. @wind spade .. would it be possible in your calc to setup the.. 'I already have these materials' section.. to work with leaves/wood? -- I was trying to optimize a a biomass setup fed by containers of leaves/wood, but realized it didnt do those 2 items.

[wind spade]

hmm, I'll add that to my gigantic list of features I need to add xD

[keen patio]

❤️ I realize its probably a long list.

but figured Id ask.

[sharp crow]

now that you're adding to that list, i'm going to bug you by saying something that's already on the list
power plz

[keen patio]

Lol!

[sharp crow]

i just want a rough estimate of how much power a setup would take

it's fine if it doesn't include the discount from underclocking

[wind spade]

power and overclocking are two next big features according to my poll

and will be probably released together or in close succession

the only problem is that I currently don't have too much time and I'm also working on some optimizations and libraries upgrade.

[keen patio]

What is the manifold tool from the old site.. and is it still usable on the old site?

[sharp crow]

ye its still useable
it just tells you how a manifold will work

[glacial hemlock]

i won't overclock to reach 1:1, i underclock.

mostly alts involving quickwire as input

[keen patio]

@sharp crow how smart is it? can I tell it what my inputs are and the required inputs for each machine its attached to.. so I know where to 'inject' the manifold next?

[wind spade]

currently it only knows normal manifold

in the new tool it'll know more (I hope)

[keen patio]

Excellent.

[wind spade]

but for now it basically just tells you how long it takes for machines to start working at 100%

[bitter tree]

Have a Mk 2 Miner on a Pure Coal and a Mk 2 Miner of a Normal Iron. Had to boost the Iron to 200% to match the coal. I can have 5.33 Foundries making iron steel ingots. But I think I will just do 5 and call it good enough 😛

[terse prism]

You could do six and clock them to 89% 😛

I wouldn't worry about it tbh until Mk3 overclocked to 600/780 for getting the correct ratio since you'd have to retool anyway to build those plants.

[heady walrus]

nvm, found the problem lmao

[keen patio]

what was it >.>

[heady walrus]

Actually the conveyer belts werent stuck yet (i just said it cuz the ore in the foundries got more and more) and now it works perfectly out. The ore that was too much in the fundries were from the time I still had MK2 Belts, so they were just still laying around on the belts

[sturdy lagoon]

Ugh just placed another 100 refineries

Just can't contain my excitement towards piping and belting them

I think I will hire an intern to follow me and clip pipes under the floor

[glacial hemlock]

You know you are doing right if the number of refineries adds up to 84

[sturdy lagoon]

🙁

It's 100 exactly for me

40/10/50

Well 40/10/48.3 or something

[glacial geyser]

@worthy copper it seems you only need ~110 tickets to leapfrog progression into tiers 5/6. there are 15 RCUs at crash sites which will give the first ~150 tickets in the awesome shop.

and they are accessible from the rocky desert area.

[worthy copper]

those are 150 tickets alltogether huh?

thatll do it

[glacial geyser]

then you could easily make the jump straight to geo and then nuclear/turbofuel

there's >400 computers laying around crash sites and including ~50 HSC and ~40 AI limiters.

[sturdy lagoon]

Crock I hope you are better with a zapper than me lmao

[worthy copper]

i mean i probably am good enough but im not doin multiplayer lol

[sturdy lagoon]

We need a third 🤔

[worthy copper]

i got paper editing to do and my own world to keep building.
And school starts monday/

then then path of exile league in 19 days

[sturdy lagoon]

I get it

I'm going to try to do most of the math on this in odd times. Just cellphone calcing lol

[glacial geyser]

Oh crap @worthy copper new league? I hope it’s not FarmVille like last time

I just couldn’t bring myself to play this league 😦

[worthy copper]

the target crafting was so good though

like if you have seen synthesis items and thought that league was a mistake...
Wait till you see the shit people made this league

[terse prism]

Sounds like a strategy for speedrun

[glacial hemlock]

110 tickets from just loots? That's hell lot! Sub-3hours confirmed

[sturdy lagoon]

@glacial hemlock
What's the speedruns policy for awesome shopping?

[glacial hemlock]

no limit. @sturdy lagoon

[sturdy lagoon]

For some reason I didn't think it was allowed

Yeah those records are waiting to get smashed

[glacial hemlock]

it is. Most speedrunning right now is all based on AWESOME shop purchases

[sturdy lagoon]

You can rush a sink in like 18mins

[glacial hemlock]

no, sink before 20mins is still not possible, because you need a lot to even unlock it.

[sturdy lagoon]

Selling wire gets you enough points to keep purchasing and selling through all upgrades needed

The hardest part of the sink rush is the concrete for the sink

[sharp crow]

wait people actually speedrun this game

[sturdy lagoon]

I spent all day working on package practice without shopping 😣

Jcool would you do a team run with orn and myself?

[glacial hemlock]

omg lol, without AWESOME the fastest you can go is somewhere below 1 hour

[sharp crow]

i have 84 coupons and 17 more to be printed and haven't bought anything from the shop in a long time

[sturdy lagoon]

Yeah I did elevator in 40 mins

That's when I started scratching my head

[glacial hemlock]

what?!? without shop? how is it even possible?

you still loot from the crash sites, right? just didn't use the shop

[sturdy lagoon]

It's stupid and stressful

No it's perfect hand crafting and automation

I literally counted every ore in advance

[glacial hemlock]

perfect.

[sturdy lagoon]

33 per on iron outcrop. Miner. Another 50 from miner.

[glacial hemlock]

I have trouble even to replicate my own speedrun result. Too much actions to optimize

[sturdy lagoon]

No more no less

It's true dude

I did like 12 practice and still made variables

It's so hard to stop sometimes

What's a couple more rods

A couple more rods means your miner just stopped

Built 5 smelters. Deleted 3 of them and added constructors

[glacial hemlock]

I only remember
30 iron ores
1 portable miner
40 iron ingot
1 smelter
Yeah, everything past here is just random actions.

[sturdy lagoon]

Miner rush into hard smelt and semi auto crafting

I have every ore counted until SE

Tier 0 is 205 rods...

But yeah
Shop seems right 😁

[glacial hemlock]

1package cost how many iron ores in total?

[sturdy lagoon]

732 pre elevator

775 elevator

I never got the elevator fast enough to count packages 😎

Your first nibble of copper should be 300 ore

The very first resource you gather is 99 limestone

At least from the spawn I used

I spawn beside limestone so I hit it once and leave it for like 10 mins

[glacial hemlock]

@glacial geyser are you sure the RCU at the crash sites will grant you 110 coupons? there aren't so many RCU out there

[sharp crow]

there's like 3 or 4 last i checked
although there's probably a few more in the swamp and red forest but i dont even have a rifle yet

[sturdy lagoon]

He counted 15

Tbh simple purchase and resale gets you all you need

[glacial hemlock]

you need to unlock RCU in the first place to even to be able to buy them

https://satisfactory.gamepedia.com/AWESOME_Shop#Parts
Great idea @sturdy lagoon that enlightened me. I have expanded this article for more info.

[sturdy lagoon]

Yeah we worked out selling basic items for your first tickets and buying the necessities to keep upgrading tiers

Buying package 2 is pretty tight though. For sure.

Package 1 is half of a 6 coupon purchase

It's nothing really

[glacial hemlock]

one way is through HMF, but hey, 40 coupons aren't that much. You probably need to produce rotors and RIP by yourself

[sturdy lagoon]

Buy rotors

[glacial hemlock]

but steel beam, how?

[sturdy lagoon]

Buying the rotors and plates for smart plating us cheap

Steel beams =60 points

It's the biggest purchase

[glacial hemlock]

setting up steel production is very expensive, while setting up rotors is just a simple 7 minutes of work

[sturdy lagoon]

At that point you have nearly unlimited points

Computers are huge profit

[glacial hemlock]

my previous 2package% run I skip the steel entirely with 35 coupons, that leaves me only 9 coupons for some other things

[sturdy lagoon]

And turbo motors can gain 22mil points on 1 buy and sell

[glacial hemlock]

yeah, TM can be resold until 200+ coupons. Stonk.

[sturdy lagoon]

Yeah lol

[glacial hemlock]

but you need almost all tech to even purchse it

[sturdy lagoon]

Yeah you need to lean on the computer era pretty hard

I haven't worked out past buying package 2

But there's also turbo motors on the ground

[glacial hemlock]

do you have any 2package% speedrun? Would like to learn from you

[sturdy lagoon]

So that's big

None with awesome

I never really went past elevator

[glacial hemlock]

@sturdy lagoon no longer possible to loot turbo motors since U3 (if you found any, please tell me!)

[sturdy lagoon]

I was never happy with my tine

Orn has a list

[glacial hemlock]

is it U3 list or U2 list?

[sturdy lagoon]

Not sure

But its loaded

[glacial hemlock]

i am sure U2 you can loot torbomotors, but U3 you don't

[sturdy lagoon]

The computers/ SC are big

And his estimate for the RCU was big

We are going to do a run

You should join us

There s a couple little things I would like to experiment with

[sand garnet]

Ive manually chwcked every crash site. There are no turbomotors currently

[charred ledge]

how tf do i fill this in

trying to create a floor for modular frames steel and encased beams alt

and stators if i have enough space

then bam 3rd floor motors

[glacial hemlock]

If you felt like you have too much space, you are not building enough😎

And that one particular diagonal belt killed me

[frosty sail]

or he could just be over buillding the floor for what he needs

[half ridge]

Ok, I need a bit of help. Wondering this for a while. What’s the best way for 5pm produce to feed into 3pm used?

[sand garnet]

those are weird numbers

how many machines use them

[half ridge]

Been a couple of days since I played, lemme just check

Reinforced platting to modular frames. So at least one important one

Currently I just have it overflow with smart splitter, but I am all for load balancing

[noble linden]

I mean there is no way to load balance that. You'll always have overflow. Just split off the overflow with a smart splitter to your grinder line lol

[glacial geyser]

@glacial hemlock @sharp crow there are 15 RCUs on the map on two different sites. They gave us 40 tickets from 0 when we did it

We also threw in some of the super computers to see how it helped. We can get 120 tickets by dumping in the supercomputers and RCUs to the awesome sink

I did a run with my friend last night from scratch to see how it played out. We started in the dunes and grabbed the first set of 5 from the poison to the southwest in that area. The second set of 10 you can get from the red forest. If you hit all the crash sites along the way that require power and items you can get from the other crash sites you get about 10 hard drives on the way.

We had to establish a base and start building concrete and some basic items to get the awesome sink program and the concrete to facilitate exploration. If you know the approximate heading you can build a ramp basically straight up and across from there to the red forest with ~ 1000 concrete

If you run the sink while you’re gone and just start dumping something in I think it’s a more worthwhile use of time/resources when attempting to skip straight to geothermal

The items to build the second set of space elevator items is also worth setting up a small automation site with.

And then augment that with the tickets gathered from sinking high level items acquired from crash sites.

All in all I think it’s a reasonable way to start a new progression. However, if you screw up and die a bunch trying to get those items, you’ll be set back significantly in time anyway

So I’m not sure how good it is in practice compared to a typical progression from ~ 6 biomass burners to ~6 coal with a decent starting location.

We ended up switching over to coal by the end of the night but that was because we hadn’t realized the potential gains. we were exploring and seeing how plausible it could be.

[glacial hemlock]

@glacial geyser i am interested with the result, wondering how efficient it is to do a 3package% that way

[terse prism]

@half ridge Divide the input needed by the output of the previous machine. In this case you end up with .6 which means you'd underclock to 60%. Alternately you can scale the production up where you have 3 machines feeding 5 machines (15pm produced/used)

IMO grinders in the middle of a production line are unwieldy so I typically only place them for when the end product is overflowing. You also get more points that way, too.

@charred ledge It can be easier and faster to build foundations from below because of the way they snap together/pov. Just fill you inv with concrete and have at it.

[still pine]

thoughts on which power production is the least pain in the ass to setup and run per MW? other than the geysers... i can't decide

[worthy copper]

turbofuel if you ask me

its still quite a setup but it gives a lot of power

[still pine]

okay, so 55 buildings to make 30,225 MW of power with the nuclear plants. and more than 250 buildings to produce 22,221 MW with turbo fuel, but there is no waste you have to store which is 1 ICU per 80 hours of each reactor. So for me, 30,225 reactor power for 500 hours is 82 ICU containers which makes the number 137 to 250.

[worthy copper]

the crafting chain for nuclear fuel is also much more extensive though

many of those buildings for turbofuel you can just build in parallel

[still pine]

my brain says yes, but my wrist says no, and I do really hate pipes. which i also forgot to add the water so 176 buildings

I think I'll try the turbo factory.

[worthy copper]

the fact that the turbofuel factory has two 1:1s in it as well (diluted fuel:unpackage fuel:package water) also helps the layout a lot

two whole manifolds you get to just skip

[bitter tree]

My afk box.. I just go inside to stay safe : )

[stable siren]

Could just afk in a vehicle

[sturdy lagoon]

That's so minecraft

[noble linden]

What are you hiding from?

[bitter moss]

Probably cat heads

[sturdy lagoon]

The spitters and butterflies that decide to spawn 20mins after you enter the area ☺

[glacial hemlock]

Afk in the sky

[naive ingot]

So I've heard them be called crabs, beetles, bees, and now butterflies...

[worthy copper]

murder hornets 🙂

[hot ginkgo]

I called them evil fireflies when I first started.

[naive ingot]

It's a good indication that they made them sufficiently alien.

[glacial hemlock]

Imo if there is a flying bug bigger than my head it will scare the sh!t out of me

[cyan drift]

Bloatflys

[bitter tree]

So, I just had a OOF moment..
With my coal generators, I have a max of 1200 MW. I am using at peek just above 300. I set up my Oil production area. 27 Refineries @ 30 MW each = 810 usage. 4 Oil Extractors @ 40 MW ea = 160. 160+810=970 MW. 970 + what I use at a peek spike is lets say, 310 which = 1280. Have not added in the pipeline pumps I will need yet.. But 1280 > 1200, which means a power grid crash if I try to turn it on.

SO ... 2 options
1)Time to completely redo my coal power production, overclocking the miners on the 3 normal nodes, to make 300 Coal/min each. Each coal line could then support 20 Coal Generators.
Currently I have 16 Coal Gennies making 75 MW each. That is 1200 MW.
Going up to 60 Coal Gennies @ 75 MW each = 4500 MW.

2) Only turn on a few of the refineries to start, making Fuel for Fuel Gennies, then slowly adding more to the grid until I can turn on the whole thing.
Have not unlocked Fuel Generators yet.. OOF

[glacial geyser]

@worthy copper @sturdy lagoon 60 coupons is what I can boost by dumping heatsinks and some other various items along with the 19 RSU's from 3 sites. I did it last night MP and this morning Solo

in ~4 hours including dicking around trying to find optimal paths from the desert straight to the red forest area.

it looks like it is possible to boost all the way to turbofuel on, im using 2 bio burners + the two from the HUB

[glacial geyser]

the biggest cost definitely being the second stage items for the space elevator. However, I think the absolute FASTEST path to coal is definitely dumping those initial 5 RSUs which are in the desert for the initial 30 tickets to go straight to coal. you don't even need anything set up other than a single assembler and the initial infrastructure to generate enough items to get the awesome shop.

[still pine]

does anybody else trying to do mega things find them selves building mostly refineries. I feel like that's all I make now for alt recipies

[glacial geyser]

I think most of the refinery recipes are meant to extend resources

"pure" using less resources for more product by "diluting" it or "cleaning it" with water

they don't have the fastest build speed or the simplest product chain

so if that's the path you want for yourself you'll probably end up mostly building refineries.

I don't. I prefer to balance increase build speed with demand on additional resources. or blending things together (fused quickwire, copper alloy ingot, Coke Steel Ingot, etc...)

[upbeat tide]

^^
diluted packaged fuel , pure caterium, pure crystals are mandatory processes tho in very late game

according to interactive map, I have 1234 refineries 😄

[still pine]

I will say that the refinery placement noise is very satisfactory sounding, and might be the best sound in the game. I am halfway to 1000 of them

I just feel the meta part here is "oh another 60 refineries again" sigh.... makes the game a little bleh

[upbeat tide]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/553550566991724545/749821841681678406/unknown.png

this area alone is a huge pure ingot smelting facility

there is a mod that allows pure refining in foundries, but shrug looks weird

[still pine]

31 ish constructor recipes 40 refinery recipes, 43ish assembler.... interesting

[kind crypt]

Hello, I dont know if my math are correct.... Can you help me ? :x

[upbeat tide]

• 31 constructor
• 44 assembler
• 30 manufacturer
• 40 refinery

@still pine

[still pine]

its too neat for me.... but seriously great effort... I know how long that takes, which ingots are you making?

[upbeat tide]

umm...all of em

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/553550566991724545/749822393861537923/unknown.png

ignore caterium, I filtered out the train

train supplies half the caterium ore used

[still pine]

I only have you beat on quartzy crystal at 1,042 and copper 3828 units

[upbeat tide]

And planning one more expansion, copper sheets. Gonna be a big one too. 5 arrays of 34 refineries each

Well, these numbers are for this refinery areay only 🙂

[still pine]

carpal tunnel feeling intensifies. anyway I still stand by my statement that refinery is king here

[upbeat tide]

Lol yea and the back side will be another big train taking this all elsewhere to be made into turbomotors, or whatever else I decide

[keen patio]

@upbeat tide Is this all on nuclear power or?

[fierce ruin]

any1 wanna play multi player?

[still pine]

I love how this game scales from a, "oh I have 24 slot container of this item, it's more than I will ever need" to "you need 12,000 of this item a minute, and there aren't enough resources on the map to do that"

[bitter tree]

@glacial geyser You will need to use some of those alt recipes at some point, most likely. According to the Wiki, there only 0 Impure/11 Normal/5 Pure of Raw Quartz. There is 1 Impure/7 Normal/3 Pure of Sulfur. 3 Impure/5 Normal/5 Pure of Bauxite.

So you'll be wanting to use to some alt recipes to stretch out those resources as much as possible.

[upbeat tide]

@keen patio nope, 2333.33m3/min worth of turbofuel fuel gens

[keen patio]

I was hoping you would say that; Fuel gens I get.... Nuclear without waste management options... oi.

[still pine]

nuke isn't that bad

[upbeat tide]

Nah it isnt, its on the to do list but 98+ GW worth of power im good for a good bit

[still pine]

1 industrial container will last 80 hours per reactor for waste

"he said as he worked on his turbo fuel thingy"

[upbeat tide]

• 1200m3 oil
• 2400 coal
• 2400 sulfur
• 3200m3 water

Raw inputs for that process

Using:

• heavy oil residue alt
• diluted packaged fuel
• normal turbofuel recipe

[glacial hemlock]

@kind crypt if you already have the ability to do 780coal/min, you probably shouldn't be focusing on coal generators anymore

More info can be found on wiki - coal generator

[bitter tree]

But the Coal you already have dedicated for power production, why not maximize it?

[worthy copper]

why not tear the power gen down and make steel with the coal

or turbofuel

[bitter tree]

Only so much Sulfur you can get to mix with coal to make Compacted Coal for the Turbofuel.

1 Impure, 7 Normal and 3 Pure Sulfur in the entire map.

[worthy copper]

not much else to do with sulfur though, and combining it with fuel for turbo does make the usage much more effiicent

[bitter tree]

Yep, but once you have all the sulfur dedicated for Turbo fuel, what else to do with the coal? : D

[worthy copper]

steel

[bitter tree]

I am redoing my coal setup .. because I was almost finished with my oil setup when I realized I needed to crunch some numbers.
If I get my oil setup all going, I'd blow a fuse... I only just unlocked Oil, so don't have fuel gennies yet.

Math knocks me down again, just when I thought I was going to get something accomplished.

[manic oak]

If you're using the west Oil Islands, I recommend finding the diluted packaged fuel recipe from a hard drive if you don't already have it. There isn't coal or sulfur in the area, but I'm running fuel generators on about a third of the fuel I can produce there and getting about 4.9 GW out of it. Not enough for a big factory, but enough to tide me over until I build a turbo fuel facility in the dune desert.

[bitter tree]

I am in the Grassy Plains area. Spot I am at, there are 2 Normal Coal nodes (3 Normal actually, but I haven't got Sulfur setup to make explosives to blow up the boulder sitting on top of the 3rd node)

The oil I am getting is from the mushroom Biome. 1 Impure with 2 Normal making a 300 line, and 1 Pure making a 240 line.

[manic oak]

Those aren't normal nodes, they're pure nodes. I managed to limp into phase 3 using only one of them.

https://satisfactory-calculator.com/en/interactive-map#3.75;-74612;187107|realisticLayer|coalPure;coalNormal

Unselect all layers and then select pure and normal oil nodes. Look north west of the grasslands (the islands)

[bitter tree]

There is a Pure coal node where I had to build platforms to get to.. I am using that for my Steel production.

[manic oak]

Wait, you went to the mushroom biome, but you're not tapping the pure oil nodes there?

Oh, sorry, didn't see the last part of your message

[bitter tree]

I only saw 1 Pure, 2 Normal and 1 Impure. Put the Pure on it's own line of 240. 1 Impure and 2 Normal makes a 300 pipe.

I was talking Coal, you were talking Oil : P

[manic oak]

There's 3 pure (the map I sent you is really useful for scouting out resources). There's also 4 normal coal nodes you can use for power generation. I made a coal generator setup with 4 normal coal nodes to get about 1300 MW (it was at the lake North of the grasslands). That said, the 2 pure coal nodes in the grasslands will give you the same thing.

[bitter tree]

I am redoing my Coal Genny setup. Mk 2 Miner overclocked to produce 270/min (250% overclocked is 300/min) to match my belt speed. 270 coal/min to run 18 Coal Gennies.

I am in the grassy plains next to a lake. I only see 3 Coal here, but one is blocked by a boulder atm.

[manic oak]

Yeah, that'll do it. I had my factory using about 1800 MW at its peak when I finished phase 2, but I didn't have enough steel production so I was just running back and forth throwing materials into assemblers manually xD

I don't see the area you're talking about.

[bitter tree]

I had 1200 MW going with the 2 nodes.. But I was about to turn on my oil production .. crunched the numbers and 1200 MW wasn't going to be enough.
So I have already taken down my coal gen setup, redoing it to run 18 Coal Gennies per coal line (overclocked the Mk 2 Miner). When I get Mk 4 Belts, I can turn the overclock on the miners to max to run 20 Coal Gennies each.

18 Coal Gennies, each making 75 MW. That is 1350 MW. That times 2 coal nodes is 2700 MW.

[manic oak]

That'll solve your power needs, but like I said, I found myself running out of steel at the end of phase 2. I recommend using the 4 normal nodes in the mushroom biome, 1 of the pure nodes in the grasslands, and then use the other pure node for steel. I actually never tapped the second coal node because I was being stupid, but 4 normal nodes and 1 pure should be enough to get you enough power and enough steel. Probably.

[bitter tree]

I am in tier 5 and 6. I have Oil unlocked. I just need to setup the Coal to be better, then I can turn my oil stuff online and not crash the power grid. Once I get some Plastic and Rubber flowing, I can start unlocking more stuff, including fuel generator.. Then I should be good for power : )

[manic oak]

Yeah, I actually just finished that step. Then I realized it would be more fun (and, somehow, logistically simpler) to build a bunch of highly specialized bases that ship out their products to other bases than just building a mega base. Now I face the annoying task of having to trek out to the dune desert to get turbo fuel rolling so I can convert my Western oil islands into a rubber factory

[bitter tree]

I crunched the numbers, and I was going to be using between 1350-1400 at top spike usage, and I was only making 1200 max.

[manic oak]

That happened to me too. At one point I was actually spamming the fuse lever to see if I could get out of peak usage. It worked... for like 2 minutes xD

[bitter tree]

That is why I have to redo my whole Coal setup, overclocking the Mk 2 Miners of the 2 Coal nodes.

[alpine torrent]

@manic oak i built a train from dune desert with540 compacted coal a min to west oil islands for turbofuel power plant for 300 crude to 149 fuel gen

[manic oak]

I'm planning on using the oil at the west islands to produce rubber and plastic for my steel factory (steel coated plates require plastic and rubber for adhered iron plates). Since there's already oil near the sulfur at the dune desert, I might as well just make the turbo fuel power plant there

[alpine torrent]

interesting using oil for basic iron materials is the ratio good?

[manic oak]

Check out "Solid Steel Ingot", "Pure Iron Ingot", and "Steel Coated Plate" on the wiki

You only need 0.36 iron ore per steel ingot if you're using the first two, and 0.17 steel ingot per iron plate with the last one

So the ratios for the two improved iron plate recipes would be: Coated Iron Plate: 0.36 Ore per Plate. Steel Coated Plate: 0.36*0.17 = 0.06 Ore per plate

In fact, the Steel Coated Plate is just better all around since it uses less plastic per plate (0.13 vs. 0.11)

Also, every iron item in the game has a steel alternative (steel rod, steel screw, etc., Steel Coated Plate, etc.), and combining Pure Iron Ingots and Solid Steel Ingots gives you a massive boost to steel per iron ore, so you can just make a big steel facility and then make everything you need with steel. I made a text document that details how to make 30 HMF/min with 4 pure iron nodes if you want it.

[wind spade]

technically the coated recipes are the best in raw resource usage

[alpine torrent]

yeah could be interesting mid-game before u need the crude for more important things

[wind spade]

practically you probably want the oil for other stuff

[manic oak]

^ It's relatively light on plastic and rubber usage (75 Recycled plastic/min and 56.25 Recycled Rubber/min)

[wind spade]

3.5 iron, 2.2 oil, 6.6 coal -> 60 iron plates

[alpine torrent]

is that using ur website

[wind spade]

yeah

[alpine torrent]

i haven't tried it out yet ive only used the other one

[manic oak]

I sat down to play Satisfactory. Two hours later I had finished making my calculations and went to bed without even starting the game xD

[wind spade]

Also, every iron item in the game has a steel alternative (steel rod, steel screw, etc., Steel Coated Plate, etc.), and combining Pure Iron Ingots and Solid Steel Ingots gives you a massive boost to steel per iron ore, so you can just make a big steel facility and then make everything you need with steel. I made a text document that details how to make 30 HMF/min with 4 pure iron nodes if you want it.
@manic oak you can make 30 HMF from 880 iron and 15 oil (+ 1185 coal and 1080 limestone and some water)

[manic oak]

I think we're talking about the same recipes. I technically can make more HMF with my sources, but I stopped at 30 so I could make extra stuff for storage

[wind spade]

i haven't tried it out yet ive only used the other one
@alpine torrent there's like 4-5 sites, so saying "the other one" is kinda ambiguous

@manic oak https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=q6Mrg7Hz2crmX500WwwP

[alpine torrent]

ive only known of 2 lol

https://satisfactory-calculator.com/

that one

[wind spade]

I found that one super slow with larger setups (and also I don't like how it shows every machine, makes things less readable imo)

[alpine torrent]

when i was using i just used the items portion which told me how much of what i needed a min and just planned the factory out myself didn't look at the tree really

[manic oak]

We are using slightly different recipes. Yours uses stitched iron plates, but mine uses adhered iron plates (rubber vs. copper). Yours technically uses more iron ore per HMF, but it does cut out some of the rubber usage.

Looks like everything else is the same, though, and the difference in iron ore usage isn't huge

[wind spade]

I just picked all recipes and let the tool pick the best ones in terms of raw resource usage

[manic oak]

I don't feel like bringing in copper wire, though, especially since the oil fields are so close

It probably chose that since it found it used less oil. I made my decision purely based off of iron since rubber won't be a problem for me (you know, once I get around to setting it all up)

[wind spade]

well you said "from 4 pure nodes", while 880 iron is 1 pure and 100 extra

[manic oak]

I'm only using Mk. 2 drills, so it's 960 iron for me

[wind spade]

I see

then it's kinda misleading and I'd prefer if you said "from 960 iron" 🙂

[manic oak]

Yeah, that's my bad. We are using basically the same recipe, though. Good to know that once I have enough energy cells and Mk. 3 Drills (and Mk. 5 conveyor Belt) I can easily quadruple my output

[sharp crow]

greeny does the site pick the recipes based on total raw material useage or is it based on weighted useage?

[wind spade]

weighted, based on relative resource quantity on the map

[sharp crow]

ye ok makes sense

ty

[glacial geyser]

When will it be based on the values I define in the resources and inputs tab?

[wind spade]

never

[glacial geyser]

Ok then. I mean it’s your tool you do you. But having it hard coded only one way is kinda limited in use then

[wind spade]

it won't be hardcoded in the future

but it won't be dependent on raw resources limits

[glacial geyser]

Then why say never?

[wind spade]

and inputs won't affect it either

[glacial geyser]

But it will at least be editable?

[wind spade]

inputs affecting it doesn't make sense

[glacial geyser]

It absolutely does

[wind spade]

it doesn't

[glacial geyser]

Because it’s a reasonable default assumption. Less quantity = increased scarcity

You set it to be able to change it

[wind spade]

how does me inputting 100 plastic affect raw resource usage?

[glacial geyser]

I’ve never suggested that

[wind spade]

When will it be based on the values I define in the resources and inputs tab?

[glacial geyser]

I’m saying on that tab, if I set iron to be less available than copper

[wind spade]

well "input" is the thing on the right side, where you put intermediate available products to use. That one won't ever affect raw resource weights

[glacial geyser]

Then it should favor copper

As of current state it doesn’t favor raw resource values

Based on quantity set by the user

[wind spade]

for raw resources limits (which I assume you're talking about), it doesn't make sense to automatically adjust weights based on limits, because very common usage is "I want to see how much I can produce from X iron, but I don't want to use less efficient recipes"

[glacial geyser]

Sure it’s a use-case

So it should be configurable

[wind spade]

there will eventually be a button that sets the resource weights based on the resource limits, but it won't ever autoupdate

[glacial geyser]

That’s fine as long as I can tell it to do the right thing based on what I set. Right now it’s all hidden

[wind spade]

right now it's not editabe

so makes sense to hide it

[glacial geyser]

I just don’t think it’s clear either that adjusting resource availability doesn’t change the recipes to use.

[wind spade]

considering that it's not clear that the tool uses some kind of weights in the first place...

[glacial geyser]

Or rather it attempts to make overly-complicated factory setups is all

[wind spade]

and resource availability can change recipes to use

it doesn't take into account anything related to "complicated vs simple" factory

[glacial geyser]

I get that. Complicated vs simple could be subjective

[wind spade]

because I consider that secondary vs raw resource consumption and it's also way harder to mathematically formulate

correction - way harder to objectively mathematically formulate

[glacial geyser]

But what I’m talking about is when it says to make an iron supply chain to make wire to build stators and use some of the copper to also build wire for the same purpose and split some of that off to go make something else, the end results can be convoluted

But anyways I digress it’s a good tool it’s just tricky to get it to behave the way I would prefer it to behave.

Also thanks for your work on it

[wind spade]

basically there are two types of people that use my tool:

• people that don't know how to build certain production and want the tool to tell them
• people that know exactly what they want to build and they just want to run the numbers

I'm trying to show the best setups so that the first group can learn the correct ways to do stuff, the second group has to do some more setting up (picking only the recipes they want) to get the result they want, but that's fine imo, as I can't read minds and if you want to limit the tool to display what you want, you have to tell the tool what is it that you want

[glacial geyser]

I think “best” and “correct” are slight overreaches in nomenclature.

[wind spade]

both are "in terms of raw resource consumption"

which makes sense imo, considering it's the only limitation the game has

[glacial geyser]

People who are new to the game will find certain factory setups daunting. So they ask “is there a better way? A simpler way? So they go to the tool and plug it in and it shows them an even more complicated and daunting factory setup, people get overwhelmed by that.

[wind spade]

that's if they plug in all alt recipes tho

which new people usually don't have

[glacial geyser]

I’m just saying it’s not entirely black and white both for use case expectation and for certain players

“Best” and “correct” make new players feel like they failed before they started

[wind spade]

well the tool only answers whatever question you ask it

if you get a wrong answer, you asked a wrong question 😉

[sand garnet]

Simplified is also very subjective

[wind spade]

indeed there are some limitations with what questions you can ask, but I'm working on expanding it (not now)

[glacial geyser]

And even if it’s not “optimal from resource efficiency and map resource weight” doesn’t make it wrong

[sand garnet]

Does simple mean least amount of buildings? Recipes? Power?

[glacial geyser]

Or incorrect

all of the above

For the sake of argument

[sand garnet]

What if you literally csnnot have all

Then which matters more

[glacial geyser]

Then you can’t

But in some cases, a lot of cases, you can

[wind spade]

for now the only available optimization is weighted raw resources. In the future, I'll add power as another optimization. Anything else is subjective, unless you can come up with a objective way to give integer/decimal value to a given setup

[glacial geyser]

I guess to be clear I’m not arguing with you greeny. I’m just pointing out something kind of universally important in the line of thinking about why I asked in the first place. Because a single metric-based view of “correctness” can often lead to confusion.

[wind spade]

but you only can have single metric, unless you figure out how to unify different metrics

[glacial geyser]

And also as I mentioned before I am grateful for the tool. I just take notice when people get stuck on making it about “correct” or “best” when I feel like it should be more specific in description because the language use really can just turn people off and away from doing something spectacular.

[wind spade]

simple real-life example: cars
you have two values: max speed and consumption/100km. If you want to pick whatever car is better, you need to specify what "better" means. Is it best top speed? is it lowest consumption? It can't be both. Unless you weight how much 1km/h max speed is compared to 1 liter/100km cosnumption.

[glacial geyser]

Most people don’t care (ex car salesman , ha) they care is it fun to drive and will it completely make me go broke driving it?

[wind spade]

well... that's not the point xD

[glacial geyser]

And when I say most people I do mean that target 80% lol.

And while that may not be your point. It is my point

[wind spade]

I know you're not trying to argue, I'm just saying that I'm very limited in what I can "assume" and what I need as input from user. We're playing a game that's super subjective and I'm just trying to use whatever objective things I can come up with to do the calculations.

[glacial geyser]

I think you have a 3rd persona missing from your bullet point list of two people.

Which is the avg joe coming from Minecraft wanting to play a beautiful exploration game but just utterly confused at how to build a factory that doesn’t shut down

[wind spade]

well that is the first type, since he comes, plugs in numbers and ignores alts because he never heard of them.

the tool just gives the plain no-alt result (which is usually the only way, so there's no bias in resource weights or something)

that's also why alts are disabled by default

[glacial geyser]

So the biases only come into play with alts. Where I stepped into using the tool was when I discovered alts

[wind spade]

yeah, apart from a few oil recipes, there's usually just one way to produce a thing, if you don't have alts. Alts are what add multiple ways and they also caused all of this - the need to have a way to tell which way is "better". I know it's not objectively better from user's point of view, as every user has different preferences, but the machine needs a way to compare two setups and say "this one is better". And due to technical limitations, the "betterness" of a setup has to be a number that can be calculated from the setup itself

[glacial geyser]

“Like oh crap, which one *is better for me to use in this particular area of the map with an assload of copper and very little unused iron” “what? Why does it keep wanting me to use iron for these things. I mean I have the alt so I checked it but why does it want me to make 3 different paths for copper wire? That’s really strange. Do I have to uncheck the base recipes to force the alts? Oh but it’s trying to use an alt I have available, so I checked it. but I can uncheck it. Now it for some reason or it says there is no path. But I have a factory building what I’m plugging into the tool, why does it now show me that my currently running factory is invalid? There must be a bug.”

That’s kind of a stream of consciousness example of what went through my mind the very first time I tried to use the tool.