Balancers are math
#math-and-meta
wind spade
sure, but manifolds are just better
celest vault
Nope
wind spade
and balancers are pretty much useless in SF
celest vault
Also nope
fierce ruin
I just like using my brain
boreal cypress
manifold are easiert ^^
celest vault
Manifold are the lazy person's method. That is all.
wind spade
lazy people are usually the smart people ๐
boreal cypress
and what do you do when something is changing? like another machine or on less? whole balancer is useless than
fierce ruin
Can you come out with a dumber statement
celest vault
Pfffffhahaha. Nope. Apple is a fruit, not all fruits are apples.
boreal cypress
how is that dumb?
fierce ruin
Not referring to you
celest vault
I think they were replying to greeny
boreal cypress
okay xD
wind spade
but you haven't answered HISKI's question
boreal cypress
manifold is easy expandable
wind spade
which I've asked several times before in this channel and never got a proper answer from any balancer-enthusiast
fierce ruin
The point of balancing is so you don't have to add or remove another machine
wind spade
the point of the game is to expand your factory
celest vault
Everything I build, I build with a function. I don't expand existing builds. I just use overflow somewhere else.
fierce ruin
So you build another one or rebuild one from scratch
There's no objective way of playing the game
celest vault
objective correct way*
boreal cypress
thats true
wind spade
so you're using the way that limits you, I'm using the way that doesn't limit me, it's your call
fierce ruin
How does that limit me
fierce ruin
I can rebuild it, it's the same in the end
wind spade
I can just add two machines, you need to recalculate the whole balancer, which is PITA
boreal cypress
manifold save time
celest vault
Why would you ever just add 2 machines?
wind spade
2, 5, 20, whatever
boreal cypress
Why would you ever just add 2 machines?
@celest vault mk1 ti mk2 miner and some more smelters
wind spade
the exact number doesn't matter
celest vault
Another thing that I really never ever want to manifold are the more expensive items.
boreal cypress
And what would that time save give you
@fierce ruin more time for bigger projects :)
celest vault
Like, imagine manifolding a hecking super-computer build.
That's going to take hours upon hours to fill up and be functional with a manifold.
celest vault
It needs computers. Computers come in, fills the first all the way up to 50, the 7 other super computer builds you made do nothing all that time.
wind spade
that's not how manifold works
celest vault
Or rather, the 2 that come after that do something sometimes
wind spade
alright, so you have 8 machines, each needs how many? 2/min?
celest vault
The rest being borderline insignificant at that point.
wind spade
or you just prefill the machines
celest vault
With WHAT computers?!
wind spade
or build rest of the factory in the meantime
celest vault
You still need to wait
deft sage
Sorry to interrupt but could someone explain what manifold and balancing are? Iโm pretty new to the game.
fierce ruin
celest vault
Or, instead, you could make a proper balanced build, and not have to wait.
wind spade
@deft sage manifold:
--S--S--S--S--S--S
| | | | | |
X X X X X X
useful in most of the builds
balancer:
you split in a way so that each machine gets the exact amount
usually not worth the time
@celest vault which takes more space and more time
celest vault
You have space APLENTY
wind spade
sometimes
celest vault
99/100 times.
wind spade
sometimes people build a platform that's limited and they want it to fit there
boreal cypress
but i dont want hundreds of meter just for splitter and merger
i want to build tight
fierce ruin
Think vertically
wind spade
and they prefer to know how big the balancer is which they don't neccesarily know ahead of time
celest vault
Then make everything clip, and make builds like Falk does, lol
wind spade
so they can't plan
with manifolds you know exactly how big it will be
but still takes more time ๐คทโโ๏ธ to build the balancer
boreal cypress
Think vertically
@fierce ruin i already do
celest vault
"If you can't plan", so another argument for it being the lazy/unsmart way of doing things.
boreal cypress
you dont want to balance HUNDREDS of machines
or do you want to make a 1:35 balancer?
ten times?
celest vault
Nobody actually wants hundreds of machines. You can do it, but it has no use.
celest vault
I literally just gave you three arguments as to why it has a use. Stop ignoring those, or actually debate against them.
boreal cypress
i need those machines for 124 Turbo Motors :)
wind spade
I gave you one before which you ignored as well, so ๐คทโโ๏ธ
celest vault
I haven't ignored anything.
wind spade
but still takes more time ๐คทโโ๏ธ to build the balancer
and
which takes more space and more time
celest vault
I spend more time deconstructing misplaced manifold systems than I do with balancers because of the way they're spaced apart.
safe hawk
Theres one advantage balancers have over manifolds and thats the fact that they run at 100% as soon as you start
wind spade
I also never said it has no use, but I've said that most of the time manifold is the way to go
safe hawk
Other then that they are pretty redundant
celest vault
...you literally just now said that.
nobody actually wants it, you can do it, but it has no use
@wind spade
boreal cypress
BUT i have a balancer like this because i have 5 lines with different outputs and need them even into three containers ^^ thats the only need i have for balancers
flat urchin
Hello, I have a question about pipes
safe hawk
You never rly need something running at 100% from the get go
celest vault
Please do.
boreal cypress
@wind spade pls dont kill me xD
wind spade
...you literally just now said that.
@celest vault that was overstatement, same as yours about the machines
safe hawk
Most of the time you build something and then you fuck off to do something else while stuff piles up
boreal cypress
Hello, I have a question about pipes
@flat urchin ask
flat urchin
If you have 1 pipe divided into 10 vertical pipes, do you need 10 pumps or 1 pump to get the water up?
celest vault
It wasn't an overstatement. You don't need that much. They're only going to sink it to get some kind of high score.
Depends on where the split is and how high.
boreal cypress
If you have 1 pipe divided into 10 vertical pipes, do you need 10 pumps or 1 pump to get the water up?
@flat urchin you only need pumps for headlift/vertical
wind spade
also you again "ignored" the time. You argued about deconstructing something you misplaced, while I'm talking about build time. It's just objectively faster to build manifold than a balancer (on average)
flat urchin
assume 10 meters
celest vault
Then you can place a pump at the bottom single pipe before splitting it into 10.
flat urchin
ok thanks
boreal cypress
10m coming with each machine, above 10m you need a pump every 20m
safe hawk
@boreal cypress is that 5 equal outputs into 3 equal inputs?
Cu you could do it smaller
boreal cypress
@boreal cypress is that 5 equal outputs into 3 equal inputs?
@safe hawk no 5 unequal to 3 equal
wind spade
@celest vault you don't need anything. It's a game. You can just handcraft everything and run on the two biomass burners for the whole game. Or just build platforms and watch nature. Or hack the code. That argument is pretty much void
celest vault
I didn't ignore it, I gave you my experience, meaning to point out that it's subjective. You can't say something is objectively better, and then say it's because it's on average.
You need to progress in the game to continue unlocking things, stop purposefully misinterpreting my words.
wind spade
being faster on average is a pretty good definition of objectively better
fierce ruin
What's the point of playing a logistics game if you just place crap in a straight line. In the end it's a game about creating advanced factories and planning them out is what the game is fun for me. It's my last comment on manifolds and balancers because I don't wanna talk about it anymore simply due to me not giving a fuck. Play the game as you want, cheers
boreal cypress
How unequal?
@safe hawk 400,2|600|600|600|480
celest vault
I'm just not okay that people are constantly insisting that one way is better than the other. They both have their strengths, and you should let people PICK.
empty hemlock
you know that you can just hold ctrl to mark multiple things to delete, which is quite easy to do with stuff in a straight line like a manifold?
celest vault
I thought we never removed manifold builds, only add to them, that's what they're for, right?
wind spade
that was your argument with the removing ๐
empty hemlock
you said you had issues with removing manifolds.
safe hawk
@boreal cypress if you use 1 smart spliter you can do that smaller
celest vault
Where did I say that?
empty hemlock
oh right sorry i forgot. you told me i shouldn't help you anymore, my bad.
wind spade
I spend more time deconstructing misplaced manifold systems than I do with balancers because of the way they're spaced apart.
@celest vault
here
celest vault
Yes. Individual misplaced splitters because one is building too fast. Not ENTIRE MANIFOLD SYSTEMS.
wind spade
if one building is too fast, then manifold doesn't need to be adjusted, compared to balancer ๐
celest vault
This is what I mean with picking my words apart. It's just not even amusing to hold these discussions anymore.
wind spade
so you shouldn't need to remove anything from a manifold
safe hawk
Oh god no
Nvm forget what i said
Thats a logistical nightmare
I don't wanna know how you did that
celest vault
Triple split everything, join all things?
boreal cypress
@celest vault so you want to balance 1:35 when you have a 780 line and every building need almost ~22,25?
with manifold its just 35 splitters
celest vault
I would still split the line several times before bothering with manifold.
boreal cypress
do the math
celest vault
I'd rather put down a few splitters more than deal with the large downside of manifolds.
boreal cypress
which downside?
celest vault
Oh jesus christ
boreal cypress
waiting for filling?
celest vault
I'm done discussing this. Next time I'm just going to keep screaming no at whatever argument people put forth, seems to be working for everyone else.
wind spade
I'm just not okay that people are constantly insisting that one way is better than the other. They both have their strengths, and you should let people PICK.
@celest vault in the end nobody's forcing anything. Majority of the community (at least the community in #math-and-meta) uses manifolds, so obviously you'll get most of the people recommending the manifolds. Nobody ever said "use manifold or I'll <insert some threat>" and nobody forced manifolds onto anyone. If I answer with "build manifold", I usually include points why they are useful for that kind of build, what's the alternative (balancer) and that for new-ish player the manifold is easier to build, easier to expand (new players tend to make mistakes) and works the same way as a balancer.
boreal cypress
no i want to know the large downside of manifold
celest vault
Hold up, greeny, nothing personal, but several times over now I've seen you (without being asked for it) point out that manifolds are the best way to do everything. You force that on them, and I've seen you do it more times than I can count on my hands. Every single time if someone speaks up about balancing, this discussions rears its ugly head over and over.
wind spade
oh so if I say "use X", that's forcing?
boreal cypress
forcing is: you have to build them or i will ban you from the server
wind spade
wow your life must be hard
celest vault
It's the whole religion-genitals things. It's great that you have a religion/genitals, but stop showing everyone without them asking for it.
fierce ruin
Use X actually seems like forcing, consider using X seems reasonable
safe hawk
Strongly suggesting someone is not forcing
celest vault
Heavily insinuating that it's the only right thing to do.
boreal cypress
but you said he is forcing
celest vault
That better?
safe hawk
Thats not force
celest vault
Fairly sure that's also how indoctrination works.
celest vault
wind spade
well sorry for being lazy / being on mobile often, I don't really want to write Dear Sir/Madam, I'd like to offer you a suggestion regarding your question and I would be happy if you considered my advice as a random guy on the internet with some knowledge about the game
celest vault
Huh, this channel loads linked images, didn't know that.
boreal cypress
how could you greeny
celest vault
Maybe just make a link for it, lol
wind spade
90% of the time the question is "how to split one belt to X" and answer "manifold" doesn't seem forcing to me at all
safe hawk
Anyway
celest vault
Still, you blurt it out as a fact, and as something that they should be using, while there's other ways. It's about as indoctrination as you can get.
wind spade
it's just an answer to a question, same as any else
boreal cypress
there is a link: https://www.reddit.com/r/SatisfactoryGame/comments/btexf7/satisfactory_saturdays_2_balancers_vs_manifolds/
i always give them this link and they can read and choose :=
safe hawk
Noone forces anyone to use anything
fierce ruin
Manifold is not an answer to that question anyway, but whatever
safe hawk
Its normal to have opinions on the internet
wind spade
how's that not an answer to that question
safe hawk
Either way of doing things i viable
celest vault
Right, yes, thank you Elon, I get that force is the wrong thing to use, as force doesn't exist on the internet. Point made.
wind spade
if I asked "how to transport items for a long distance" and I got answer "belt", is it wrong answer because there are also other methods?
safe hawk
If noone comes with a better solution ofc ill chose the one i heard first when i ask for advice as a noob
celest vault
"How long is the distance?"
wind spade
the nature of the question itself is already subjective, so ofc they'll get subjective answer
but that doesn't mean it's wrong
celest vault
That's just assumptions over assumptions.
wind spade
even if you knew the distance, it's still subjective answer
celest vault
Because that's you both assuming that they know all transport types. That's assuming that they're at a specific tech. That's assuming you know what distance. That's all assumptions out of a nonsensical answer, and people who won't know better will take it seriously.
wind spade
- What's 1/2?
- Manifold
@fierce ruin never said that. Read my original example question again
celest vault
So yes. It's the wrong answer.
wind spade
alright
fierce ruin
You're just denying your own statements
wind spade
balancer is wrong too then. Any answer that is not 100% objective is wrong. Whoa. Life got a new meaning now
fierce ruin
Time to leave, bye
celest vault
Lol...
molten hare
Hello, people in the computer. Should someone summon a mod?
boreal cypress
You're just denying your own statements
@fierce ruin how is he denying his own statemens? they didnt changed
celest vault
You're literally shooting yourself in the foot right now. You first say "I'm going to answer with just manifold because that's the shortest answer." And now you're saying not a single answer is correct because one single answer can't be correct. And here I'm sitting going "It depends on the situation, are you high?"
wind spade
you said that no answer is correct ๐ค
celest vault
No, that's the conclusion you pulled from my "it depends on the situation" point.
wind spade
(or rather you said that mine is incorrect because there are other ways, so that implies all of them are)
celest vault
I literally just pointed out that you can't just give a single answer, be it belt or manifold when you don't know the full extent of the question. I'm not saying no answer can be right.
wind spade
"how to split 1 belt to 12" is all the info I need ๐ค
celest vault
if I asked "how to transport items for a long distance" and I got answer "belt", is it wrong answer because there are also other methods?
@wind spade
boreal cypress
to have the right answer you have to know EVERY possible option and when they only say: how do i split 3:7
what would you say to give a fast answer?
celest vault
How many items/m?
wind spade
Manifold is not an answer to that question anyway, but whatever
alright, sorry, this was posted by @fierce ruin , not you. Missed that in the wall of text
boreal cypress
asking 50 question what belts they have, what the input and outputs are?
wind spade
before you even ask the first question, the player picks the first answer and starts doing it
boreal cypress
How many items/m?
@celest vault per belt? input output? mk belt?
manifold is just quicker and easier
celest vault
But the very moment you immediately default to manifold, you'll shortly after get to hear "But I'm moving 1K items", can't fucking manifold that.
wind spade
you can manifold that the same way as you balance it
celest vault
Because you're assuming that you know everything and manifold is the best way.
wind spade
just the fact that you assume that manifold consists of one belt only doesn't mean it does
celest vault
With manifold insertions, sure. That shit gets ugly fast and in specific situations STILL DOESNT WORK.
wind spade
not manifold insertions
you can literally run two manifolds
each one per belt
super simple
celest vault
Double the splitters? wat
boreal cypress
its ugly?
wind spade
X X X X X X X
| | | | | | |
--S--S--S--S--S--S--S
--S--S--S--S--S--S--S
| | | | | | |
X X X X X X X
celest vault
Which means... one manifold that goes to 3? And another that goes to 3? And then one that... What
wind spade
also no, I was talking just generally.
celest vault
Just admit that manifold doesn't always work
wind spade
3:7 split -> merge to 1, manifold 7
celest vault
I already told you
boreal cypress
so you still dont know what are the input of the all full belts or just 33% full ... when only 33% you can merge them into one and split them into 7 with manifold
celest vault
1000 items/m, you can't merge.
celest vault
Right, so now you're adjusting the factories. Discussion over.
"It's okay, Manifold always works, you just have to adjust other things."
wind spade
well if you're the type that decides that his factory will have 7 buildings no matter how much you actually need to produce something, then it's your problem, not manifold's
boreal cypress
tell us how you do it with balance :)
empty hemlock
1000/min fit on 2x 780/min belts, so 2 manifolds is enough
celest vault
"It works until it doesn't."
wind spade
also please show a real example from ingame, where you don't use arbitrary numbers to prove your point
celest vault
Good job Prudentia, you mathed a hypothetical situation, good on you, you must feel smart now.
The point is "What if you can't manifold"
wind spade
and I'm asking about real ingame example where you can't
celest vault
I wouldn't know, because I use balancers and never run into the issue. ( อกยฐ อส อกยฐ)
empty hemlock
"what will i ever do in chess if my king is surrounded by 3 enemy kings"
celest vault
Point still being, that even if you can't think of such a situation doesn't mean it won't ever happen.
wind spade
because usually if you have these extreme cases where you transport full belts of items and machines are eating tons of items as well, you don't do balancers nor manifolds, you just make machines 1:1 and save yourself all the hassle comming from transporting large amounts of stuff
celest vault
Hey, Prudentia. If you got nothing to add to the discussion, respectfully, stay out of it.
wind spade
"what will i ever do in chess if my king is surrounded by 3 enemy kings"
celest vault
Reporting you to the mods next time.
wind spade
can I ask this?
celest vault
You already did in a different way.
boreal cypress
Reporting you to the mods next time.
@celest vault why not know?
wind spade
he's just showing you how bad your argument actually is
empty hemlock
you are asking what happens in situations that don't appear in the game. and the answer is: they don't appear in the game.
celest vault
"Your argument is hypothetical so that means it's insignificant", what an incredibly lame fallacy.
wind spade
you're trying to ask me what would I do if X happened.
I'm asking you to show example of when X happened, so that I can answer your question
boreal cypress
he? i thought prudentia is a girl
empty hemlock
i'm male
celest vault
They appear in it all the time. Because not everyone has MK5 unlocked at the start.
boreal cypress
well then sry :D
wind spade
how does not having mk5s prevent you from doing manifolds? ๐ค
empty hemlock
no harm
celest vault
Because the same hypothetical situation can arise with lower tier belts.
I've run into that aplenty.
The only reason I bothered with 1000/m is because if I do it any lower one of you smartasses would've gone "Yes but MK5 belts."
woeful skiff
Belt speed is irrelevant you can sideload manifolds along the way.
boreal cypress
no need to be rude
wind spade
can you please show concrete example of where you can't solve it with manifold or manifolds (including double manifolds, open manifolds, injected manifolds, and all the variations that are normally used)?
I need to know:
- what's my input (number of belts and IPM on them)
- what's one building's consumption (assuming all the input items go into the same recipe)
and from that I can easily tell you how would I resolve that situation
boreal cypress
or do the injectionen manifold
celest vault
Which immediately makes it more complicated and difficult to set up than balancers, Bryan
boreal cypress
@woeful skiff what is a sideload manifold?
wind spade
injection
celest vault
Well I guess it's objective, like everything else. But I'd definitely say that injected manifolds take longer to set up than proper balancers, on average.
woeful skiff
@woeful skiff what is a sideload manifold?
@boreal cypress What's injection manifold? (I suspect we're probably meaning the same thing)
wind spade
well since you can easily replace injected manifold with two separate manifolds that are on average faster to build than a balancer, I don't think that's an issue
celest vault
I believe I had a simple 2:3 split with empty containers. Full 480/m belts.
boreal cypress
@boreal cypress What's injection manifold? (I suspect we're probably meaning the same thing)
@woeful skiff where you inject items every few splitter with a merger
- - - - - - X - - - - -
|
- X - X - X M X - X - X
| | | | | |```If it fits
woeful skiff
@boreal cypress That's what I meant. (I just made up the term sideload)
celest vault
Oh no, the super compact manifold build suddenly got twice as big because of a single extra belt.
boreal cypress
ah okay xD
wind spade
@celest vault think vertical
celest vault
Why don't you when you talk about balancers?
wind spade
I never said I don't
celest vault
But balancing uses so much more space
woeful skiff
I never talk about balancers because I've never found a place they'd be useful in this game.
boreal cypress
its fact
celest vault
Only it doesn't if you just go vertical.
wind spade
it uses unknown amount of space
boreal cypress
a 1 to 35 balancer needs a shitload of space.... manifold not
celest vault
LOL
spring thorn
But why bother with blancing at all, ever? The only advantage is shorter start up time
wind spade
so you can't plan the space for it
celest vault
Wow
Belt balancing really is like magic to you
Better overview, easier debugging, less prone to mistakes and miscounting.
wind spade
tell me how much space does 4:17 balancer use
boreal cypress
every balance setup with prime numbers is a pain in the ass
spring thorn
No one said that. Manifolds are the same every time. Balancing is not
celest vault
Same every time. Unless you need to inject, double up or open up?
Which makes it just as custom as balancing.
spring thorn
That's literally 1 merger
woeful skiff
All of those are simple changes and can even be done after the fact.
wind spade
with space of 2 belts worth of width
spring thorn
Compare a inject manifold to a normal one. That's 1 merger difference. Now compare a 1:11 to a 4:17
woeful skiff
Well the doubling up you always know in advance really.
celest vault
And I do find the slower startup time a clear and heavy disadvantage.
spring thorn
If that's so, you have your answer
celest vault
Belt balancing has nothing that heavy a disadvantage.
wind spade
also, you still haven't come up with any situation where I can't use manifolds (as asked here https://discordapp.com/channels/370472939054956546/558721941410807812/732007288923095140 ) , so I'm assuming the situation doesn't exist (for now)
celest vault
boreal cypress
balance this ... 10*35 machines ... with manifold its just one belt wide per row
woeful skiff
I strongly suspect you could prove mathematically that the situation doesn't exist.
celest vault
Once again a ridiculously large build that's only there to test the limits of the game, and is not functional in any sort or manner.
spring thorn
If the startup time is important to you, nobody is going to stop you. But it's just not as easy to setup in larger factories and most of the time not as space efficient and (imo) cool looking as manifolds
wind spade
Maybe pay attention.
https://discordapp.com/channels/370472939054956546/558721941410807812/732007975140720691
@celest vault maybe read the question. You provided 1 out of two things that I asked for
boreal cypress
Once again a ridiculously large build that's only there to test the limits of the game, and is not functional in any sort or manner.
@celest vault not functional? i will need it for just 124 Turbo Motors
celest vault
Why does consumption matter? It's manifolded right?
Do you need those 124 tmotors/m for some objective? No. You're just doing it because you can.
wind spade
Why does consumption matter? It's manifolded right?
@celest vault so that I know how much one machine eats and I can design the manifold
boreal cypress
Do you need those 124 tmotors/m for some objective? No. You're just doing it because you can.
@celest vault do you need something from the game? do you need to balance machines out? No. You're just doing it because you can.
wind spade
Do you need those 124 tmotors/m for some objective? No. You're just doing it because you can.
@celest vault how does that change anything in this discussion
spring thorn
How much time did you spend in this game? I don't want to insult you, I just know it from past me. I tried to do fancy maths all over the place but as you progress further, it gets way more complicated and time consuming
celest vault
It's not within the game's normal parameters, greeny. Especially not the average. Which is what we've been talking about this entire time.
boreal cypress
Everything you doing is because YOU CAN
spring thorn
+1
celest vault
No, I play the game, I advance because there's objectives.
boreal cypress
What are the normal parameters?
spring thorn
And why do you advance?
celest vault
Things to unlock, things to build that I haven't built before.
spring thorn
For what?
boreal cypress
and what do you do when you reach t7? exit the game?
celest vault
The get to the end of content for the current version of the game.
wind spade
you can advance with minimal automation
spring thorn
There is no "content"
boreal cypress
the end content is ... yes?
spring thorn
This is more a sandbox game at the moment than anything else
wind spade
majority builds progressively bigger factories
celest vault
LOL
wind spade
nobody cares about "finishing" the game
boreal cypress
MY endgoal for now ARE those Tmotors
wind spade
almost nobody
celest vault
Not everyone's like you greeny. In fact. most of the people in this discord are outliers.
boreal cypress
and then i have some mods i want to try and build
spring thorn
I think we have at least 3 people here disagreeing
celest vault
And?
wind spade
@celest vault just a question. Do I remember correctly that you came here with Steam release?
boreal cypress
what is a outlier?
celest vault
Being right is now a democracy?
boreal cypress
why not being left?
wind spade
Being right is now a democracy?
@celest vault nobody said that, but if a majority has certain opinion and you claim "majority has different opinion", then you're wrong ๐
spring thorn
To get back to the topic: It's fine if you want to do balancers, there are just not enough reasons for most people to use them. If startup time is important to you, feel free, but they just are not more compact or easier than manifolds
celest vault
Never claimed that. In fact I'm claiming the majority isn't in this discord.
wind spade
when did you came to this community @celest vault ?
celest vault
You already know the answer to that, you're just trying to be smug about whatever lame point you're going to be making next.
boreal cypress
can you please show concrete example of where you can't solve it with manifold or manifolds (including double manifolds, open manifolds, injected manifolds, and all the variations that are normally used)?
I need to know:
- what's my input (number of belts and IPM on them)
- what's one building's consumption (assuming all the input items go into the same recipe)
and from that I can easily tell you how would I resolve that situation
@wind spade and he didnt answer this
wind spade
because I'm here since day 1 of Epic release and I think I have a pretty good idea of what most of the people talk about. Sure, it's not majority, but it's majority of the active people
celest vault
I did.
wind spade
nope, still don't have the consumption
celest vault
The idea that you think the majority of active players ARE on this discord is laughable.
spring thorn
Just leave him be, boys. He came with steam and didn't answer any questions. He is just here to argue..
spring thorn
I didn't see answers to mine for example
wind spade
what consumption in the 2x240 belt then?
celest vault
Know what. You're right. I've answered every question that I possibly could holding a discussion with 4 different people.
I think it was like 6 or 12 machines.
boreal cypress
The idea that you think the majority of active players ARE on this discord is laughable.
@celest vault Can't you prevent not having ALL opinions from every player ... That's the way it is in every study ... only a few hundred are questioned and extrapolated to billions
spring thorn
And he didn't ask one lol
celest vault
Ergo why those fucking studies should be taken with a very large grain of salt.
wind spade
so my answer is two manifolds of either 3 or 6 machines. So easily done with manifold
celest vault
So you want to manifold 3, instead of just having a single splitter of 3? Lolk But manifolds are better.
spring thorn
Everything exceeding like 10 machines is way easier and more compact with manifold. I can't think of 1 example
celest vault
Easier and compact, sure, better? Nope. Supercomputers. Hours of startup.
spring thorn
That's what I said before
boreal cypress
So you want to manifold 3, instead of just having a single splitter of 3? Lolk But manifolds are better.
@celest vault and with 6?
celest vault
Why do I keep making the same arguments? It's like everything is constantly being ignored.
spring thorn
If you value startup time SO much, that's ok
wind spade
@celest vault it takes 2 minutes for that to work 100% and before that it works on 70%+
spring thorn
But all the people I spoke to value compactness and simplicity over that
wind spade
and I can later add more machines
celest vault
Oh yes, I SO much value making sure my machines are actually doing something for a few hours. What kind of nonsensical statement is that?
wind spade
when I upgrade the belt
spring thorn
Just do a 4:17 split once and then come back. By that time, my manifold has started up
celest vault
What messed up shit are you doing anyway that you need a 4:17 split?
spring thorn
Or a 1:5
celest vault
Didn't greeny say this before? Just put down more machines and underclock them.
1:5 is easy as shit
boreal cypress
its very common when you upgrade Miners and belts to higher MK so you can have more smelters... you only need to add some and finish with manifold... with balance you have to rip dawn all balance and rebuild
celest vault
LOLNO
wind spade
and yes, you don't have majority of the people here. But I think 100k here, 30k on reddit, several k on facebook and a few extra on twitter+twitch+other discords is a pretty good chunk of people and if majority of them don't care about end goal and rather care about building a factory that they like, then I think it's pretty safe to say that the same applies for majority of all of the players
celest vault
Once again people are way overcomplicating balancers. It's almost sad.
boreal cypress
we shouldnt talk about kibitz :D
spring thorn
Can you tell me your steam name or your hours played in the game,@celest vault, if that's ok to you?
celest vault
No thanks. It'll just ensue more hollow arguments.
spring thorn
Because I recognize your reasoning from my first 10h in the game
celest vault
First 10 hours, lol
spring thorn
Nobody wants to insult you, man
spring thorn
You seem pretty upset
boreal cypress
@wind spade you are really here since day 1 of SF? thats impressive
barren elm
Do you need those 124 tmotors/m for some objective? No. You're just doing it because you can.
How is "because you can" any less of an objective than the random other stuff you're assigned to do?
wind spade
@boreal cypress day 1 of public release, yeah
boreal cypress
uff
barren elm
It's like telling those 10k science per minute factorio players that they're doing it wrong
boreal cypress
@barren elm you read all this shit? impressive xD
celest vault
Because it's not incorporated in the game design, Tya. Yes you can do it, yes they made it possible, no they didn't do balancing or testing for it.
wind spade
I beleive there's a lot of people going 
spring thorn
It is a factory game! It's all about doing unnecessary stuff
barren elm
You're operating under the assumption that the way the devs intend you to play is the right/most fun way
wind spade
oh now he knows what devs did test ๐ค
celest vault
Also yes, It's hard to keep my cool when you're trying your best to make solid arguments, but people continue to pick at your words, ignore your arguments, ask you to answer 70 different questions that you've sometimes already answered.
spring thorn
The intend of the devs where people having 2 smelters and 6 constructors and "finishing the game" 
wind spade
@boreal cypress I think I can even say that me asking Jace where I can share my tool gave birth to this channel ๐
molten hare
I feel like this channel derailed every where multi-times.
celest vault
Thank greeny and his insistency on saying manifolds are superior in every situation.
boreal cypress
@boreal cypress I think I can even say that me asking Jace where I can share my tool gave birth to this channel ๐
@wind spade thats ... even more impressing o.0
spring thorn
@celest vault I kindly asked you 2 honest questions. If you can't answer one without being rude, no one wants to hear about your arguments.
barren elm
Manifolds are superior because they're easier to build, cost less, and do the job equally as well
celest vault
What question did I miss now?
spring thorn
Wow
barren elm
If balancers had some kind of advantage then yeah it'd be a debate to be had
boreal cypress
Also yes, It's hard to keep my cool when you're trying your best to make solid arguments, but people continue to pick at your words, ignore your arguments, ask you to answer 70 different questions that you've sometimes already answered.
@celest vault i accept your opinion that you like balancers :) i also find there are some situations where you need them but you still ignoring the fact of 1:35 balancer vs manifold :)
celest vault
I literally just told you that it's hard to follow shit when you're arguing against 6 people at the same time.
fresh geyser
i did my calculation 20 time and nothing add up im supose to produce 44.4 coke and burn 44.4 coke by minute and i have a big increased in storage
spring thorn
That's it for me, have a nice day manifold boys and gurls 
wind spade
@boreal cypress https://discordapp.com/channels/370472939054956546/558721941410807812/558722092808273931 first message of this channel. My tool shared pretty much after 10 minutes or so. 22th March ๐
fresh geyser
can someone give me a cue
wind spade
@fresh geyser generators use only some % of their max possible amount, depending on how many % of max power you use
empty hemlock
@fresh geyser generators automatically scale their fuel consumption down to only what you use
boreal cypress
@wind spade nice ^^ you can be proud of you
fresh geyser
i can take a break now i almost crazy scientist 3 sheet of paper of calculation xD
wind spade
lol, what did you calculate?
spring thorn
Checking for possible mistakes I guess ^^
boreal cypress
if the gen is usin 50 on 100% than its only using 5 on 10% :)
celest vault
Also, to lay down the argument to rest of why "building big is wrong", or why "people playing Factorio with 10K science/m is wrong". It's not. But the game wasn't designed specifically for those large numbers.
If it were, there'd be more tiers, more science, more recipes, more advanced items to create. It just simply stops at some point, and the complexity turns into nothing more than a number increasing, no progress, nothing.
Although after some time Factorio DID get infinite research, which gave players such a goal, so those players are actually getting something from it, which was a nice change. And we DO get to sink things for tickets, but that's once again nothing but an optional number that you can't even do anything with if you ever make a base that ridiculously big.
wind spade
I'd maybe argue that Factorio was designed specifically with the gigantic factories in mind ๐ค or at least that's the impression I get from their FFF blogs
fresh geyser
@wind spade i counter verify each calculation with equivalent fractions
celest vault
If they'd intend for all players to make factories that big, they would've added more steps.
spring thorn
Satisfactory is early access so nobody knows what their ultimate plan is
celest vault
And?
wind spade
I don't think you need to add more content if you want to enable players to go big
celest vault
That's the same as saying that the game is fine if it just released into 1.0 right now.
wind spade
most of the "going big" players go big just because they have their own goal, not because the game tells you to
celest vault
Exactly
spring thorn
If the story isn't messing with any of the big factory stuff, the big factory stuff is exactly what they (partially) intend
wind spade
but that doesn't mean that developers didn't intended that
celest vault
Different intention.
boreal cypress
If they'd intend for all players to make factories that big, they would've added more steps.
@celest vault Factorio was small at the beginning like Satisfactory and after time it grew much much bigger
celest vault
They allow it. They made space for it. They intended for it to be possible. They never intended for it to be required.
wind spade
developers of Factorio want their players to make own goals and to progress. They provide them with tech tree to play the game normally and some extra stuff to futher continue and grow big. The game is designed in a way that allows and supports going over the basic goal of the game (launch a rocket)
spring thorn
What do balancers have to do with big factories and the devs intends to do again?
barren elm
Your core argument seems to be "If the developers haven't attached a reward to a task, then that task isn't worth doing", is that a fair summary?
celest vault
That silly shit like 1:35 balancers is fine doing it with manifold, because those people already spent so much time anyway, lol.
wind spade
What do balancers have to do with big factories and the devs intends to do again?
@spring thorn his point is that it's not required to go big and therefore "manifolds are nice for big factories" is not a proper argument because you don't need big factories
celest vault
Not even close.
spring thorn
1:35 and "spent so much time"
barren elm
Also, to lay down the argument to rest of why "building big is wrong", or why "people playing Factorio with 10K science/m is wrong". It's not. But the game wasn't designed specifically for those large numbers.
This does sound close
spring thorn
Like literally coal power tier 3
boreal cypress
They allow it. They made space for it. They intended for it to be possible. They never intended for it to be required.
@celest vault nothing is really requiered except space elevator parts .... you can almost do everything per hand... so why care about any machine and balance?
celest vault
Please just stop the straw man arguments. It's tiring.
spring thorn
@wind spade makes sense, I'm convinced
barren elm
If I were straw manning, I wouldn't have asked if it was accurate
wind spade
several times you've used an argument against manifold and then you're angry when we use the same argument against balancers ๐ค
barren elm
Your point really does seem to be that tasks are only worth doing if there's a developer-designed reward though, I'm really not sure how that's a strawman
celest vault
"an" and "same" are some very vague pointers.
As I've tried to explain, it's not about the reward, it's about the architecture behind the intended path. That path at some point comes to either an end or heavy repetition. People who really enjoy the game will enjoy the repetition. People who enjoyed the ride can stop there and don't bother with the repetition. Ergo where the game's content "ends".
wind spade
want example? the last one
"<manifolds/balancers> are not good because developers never force you to go big"
spring thorn
That doesn't change the fact, that manifolds are better lol
celest vault
Not sure when you ever used that argument against me, but okay.
Wow, TxJones, it's almost as if I wasn't arguing about that at all anymore.
spring thorn
@celest vault you keep switching your arguments whenever you lose one. Balancers may be just as easy than manifolds from tier 1 to 2 (maybe tier 3-4), but everything after that is clearly better with manifolds.
celest vault
Good red herring though.
spring thorn
That's why
fresh geyser
hmm i have a quandary if the coal generator balance out how do i avoid overflow
boreal cypress
That doesn't change the fact, that manifolds are better lol
@spring thorn not better, they are diffrent. better is just subjective ^^ you cant objective argue which one is better because at the end both do the same thing
celest vault
Let me know which arguments I've switched. You're just making me out for a liar right now, and it's starting to agitate me.
warm wren
I build my "smart" manifolds for fun. It's a game after all. Be fun.
celest vault
Research smart splitters down the caterium tree in the MAM @fresh geyser
fresh geyser
gotcha
barren elm
There's no need to avoid overflow with coal generators, arguably you're rewarded for building overflow coal generators as they act as a battery (which may or may not be what you want)
fresh geyser
thank you
celest vault
I'm presuming they're doing it to keep their plastic/rubber going.
spring thorn
@boreal cypress true, sorry. They are for the most part much better. If you intend your 7 assemblers to start producing at the same time, you are right.
fresh geyser
@celest vault the problem is i have a output of 44.4 coke yes plastic and rubber
wind spade
@barren elm he's using coke, assuming he's getting rid of byproducts
celest vault
Yeah, just get the smart splitter, it has a special overflow feature.
spring thorn
@celest vault you just said that you aren't talking about manifolds/balancers anymore. Sooooo?
wind spade
but you can also just use normal splitter at the end and it'll overflow itself
celest vault
celest vault
What, greeny no. If they do that they'll lose half the coke.
Ohwait, you mean after the generators.
wind spade
if he has manifold there, then last splitter will lose only a fraction
and he can later replace it with a smart splitter
wind spade
something like this
--S--S--S--S--S--S--S--Sink
| | | | | | |
G G G G G G G
yeah gotcha thank you i will do that
celest vault
I commend you for trying to figure all of those things out for yourself, it's much more fun to figure out how to do things, instead of being spoonfed ....that.
fresh geyser
its will be a good backup
wind spade
yeah, you lose some of the coke, but it's a good enough solution imo for the time until you research smart splitter
wind spade
and coke shouldn't be your main power source anyway (if it's used as a byproduct)
fresh geyser
exactly
spring thorn
For a temporary fix the sink is good enough
wind spade
ah yeah, that's why you usually split fuel and plastic+rubber productions
so that ifwhen fuel overflows, you don't lose plastic and rubber
fresh geyser
i did a lot of calculation to get the perfect ratio
i put a 1/6 ration lost to sink on each storage
wind spade
btw have you tried some of the online tools in pins? they may save you some work (first one is mine for example)
wind spade
wait, so the tool didn't return the perfect result?
fresh geyser
its dident tell you ho you will have full storage you need to do that
you have extra purple stuff
and its dosent tell me how to get rid of it so i learned
wind spade
ah I see
yeah, it doesn't know how to deal with the byproducts if they are not usable in the production (yet)
fresh geyser
exactly
i tried to produced more plastic for make more bottle but i was stuck in a exponancial equation
wind spade
yeah, don't do that ๐
for HOR if you want to get rid of it, easiest way is to just make coke and burn/sink it
I want to add support for that in the tool (eventually)
so that you won't have anything extra
boreal cypress
or try to find alternates which give you 1:3 oil to rubber/plastic ratios without any leftovers
fresh geyser
๐คฃ i have a lot of fun brainstorming everything even if for low scale
boreal cypress
@wind spade thx for you great tool :) helped me alot to build my 600 to 1800 ruber and 900 to 2700 plastic factory
i would never have done this manually xD
wind spade
didn't you thank me like 10 times already? ๐
celest vault
Nose wasn't brown enough, lol
boreal cypress
there is not enough :D
Nose wasn't brown enough, lol
@celest vault maybe he should use toiletpaper
celest vault
That's disgusting, effing lol
Also, here's a good reason for balancing. It's more fun than monotonous manifold! And even if that's objective, it's not objective that it'll always be more interesting. And I enjoy having fun when I play my games. :B
boreal cypress
that was fucking long discussing :D at the end we all do what we want right? :D
celest vault
Exactly
boreal cypress
Also, here's a good reason for balancing. It's more fun than monotonous manifold! And even if that's objective, it's not objective that it'll always be more interesting. And I enjoy having fun when I play my games. :B
@celest vault well thats true ^^ its a optional challenge :)
spring thorn
Always remember: stay efficient (and have fun)
boreal cypress
BE AWESOME
celest vault
It's also what concerns me a great deal. Because save for the hyper cannon I figured out everything I know on my own. Every single thing. I figured out balancing, I figured out manifolding, even insertion manifolding. All without input of anyone. Because they were natural paths to take.
If I WOULD have gone here, and be told that I should've just manifolded, I would've likely stopped playing it a long time ago. Because I would've been told to do something a monotonous and boring way. And I reckon there's a lot more people like that out there.
You can ruin people their fun by telling them to do everything manifold. Just keep that in mind.
wind spade
same goes for balancers imo
celest vault
And no, you can't "force" people to do shit. But you can (and have) convince them to use manifold.
spring thorn
I would have stopped playing if people told me to do balancers
wind spade
^ this
celest vault
And I would say "use what you enjoy using"
spring thorn
My words
wind spade
for you it may be easy, but most of the people don't enjoy solving out ratios
sullen marsh
manifolds >
boreal cypress
i wouldnt stop, i would say, fuck you i do what i want :D
celest vault
Do you enjoy waiting 2 hours for your shit to be made? Don't use manifold.
Can you preload them? Then manifold.
wind spade
I need to update my manifold tool to show you that it's hardly two hours
boreal cypress
What we all need to do is asking: "why not Manifold/Balance" and everything goes fine
celest vault
Stfu
boreal cypress
pls not again xD
sullen marsh
appearances are everything! manifolds for life!
wind spade
in some extreme case they do take 2 hours, but not 2 hours to start producing. 2 hours to start producint at 100%, usually they reach 75% in minutes
boreal cypress
Malibloo is on the balance site, you cant wolololo him
celest vault
Read back, for the love of god read back, so we don't have to hold this discussion again.
Even if you do it just a little bit, it'd be enough.
sullen marsh
i did, manifolds are better because i said so i win
spring thorn
Can't argue with that
boreal cypress
And at the end Balance AND Manifold do the same! they delivere ressource!
fresh geyser
what is manifolds??
celest vault
boreal cypress
something like this
--S--S--S--S--S--S--S--Sink | | | | | | | G G G G G G G
this
wind spade
@fresh geyser manifold is what you built for coal geens
sullen marsh
sorry my eyes have stopped working
boreal cypress
eye.exe stopped working
celest vault
Can't be right if you can't see.
sullen marsh
i can see im right ez
fresh geyser
@wind spade ok i did a 1/6 quota sink for storage it is the same?
sullen marsh
polarised eyes, can only see me
celest vault
But you just said appearances are everything, and you're blind!
boreal cypress
and the next time you see dead people?
celest vault
HAH
wind spade
@fresh geyser not sure what do you mean by that
fallow shore
I am very new to pipeline, and I am been playing since launch.
sullen marsh
you are blind to the space efficient and sexiness of manifolds!
spring thorn
DO MANIFOLDS
celest vault
You mean boring manifolds?
fresh geyser
@wind spade for my plastic and rubber i put a 5/6 in storage 1/6 in the sink like that when storage full its trash on the 1/6
sullen marsh
factory games are meant to be streamlined, therefore manifolds
spring thorn
No seriously, do your calculations. They are fun and you may stumble upon your own twist on those methods
wind spade
ah I see. Yeah, that works as well. but in the future you'll probably use overflow splitter for that
celest vault
Games are meant to be fun. So no boring manifolds.
wind spade
unless manifolds bring you fun
fresh geyser
greeny the one i need to unlock, i see
boreal cypress
Manifold: Space saving
Balancer: Can be beautiful af (i mean... look how balance AND manifold kibitz have done with his 140 Manufacturer)
wind spade
@fresh geyser or just dedicate 1 plastic factory to sink and others for storage ๐
spring thorn
The " balancer " was more like a splitter to the sections to be, but yes they look awesome
fresh geyser
@wind spade yeah the only reason of sinking is because i dont want the machine to stop
celest vault
Manifolds are monotonous and uninteresting. The only way they can bring you fun is by spending less time splitting things up and continuing your factory, making manifolds by definition not fun.
Logic'd
barren elm
At this point I'm convinced the guy is just trying to wind you all up
spring thorn
@celest vault that's not giving people their own choice
wind spade
I have fun building manifolds. I don't have fun building balancers. Logic'd
celest vault
Tya seems to be more on the clue than anyone else.
spring thorn
@barren elm that's what I said in the beginning
fresh geyser
i build both ๐
boreal cypress
i like manifold ^^ and in some places balance, but only because manifold cant work
celest vault
If it isn't blatantly obvious, I'm joking around. Not about the part about people being able to enjoy balancers more than manifolds though, so let them pick.
boreal cypress
well it can work but it would be more work as balance
wind spade
it wasn't obvious really
boreal cypress
it wasnt obvious
spring thorn
And I can't really believe it. Now maybe but not 15 min ago
celest vault
Me stating blatant opinions as facts does not making it obvious I'm exaggerating? Yikes.
fresh geyser
@wind spade i have a issue. if i manyfold its will empty my storage XD
wind spade
you just spent 2 hours defending balancers in every possible way, so the switch to "I'm now joking" wasn't really noticed by anyone
queen rivet
Unfortunately, this is the internet, and that's standard operating procedure for a lot of people, so yeah, hard to tell sometimes ๐
spring thorn
^
celest vault
Apparently me saying that I was done discussing balancers and splitters wasn't really noticed by anyone either.
wind spade
@fresh geyser with the overflow splitter you can just put that before your storaage and burn everything extra
queen rivet
People choose really weird hills to die on all the time.
spring thorn
Because you started it again with a wall of text
queen rivet
But it's all good
wind spade
@celest vault it was, but you started again after 3 messages, so ๐คทโโ๏ธ
celest vault
Maybe stop making up lies, bud.
wind spade
link your "I'm done" message then please
spring thorn
Ah shit, here we go again
fresh geyser
@wind spade overflow splitter do i feed it back to storage?
celest vault
Chat had died, this was me talking about a different part of the discussion: https://discordapp.com/channels/370472939054956546/558721941410807812/732016073376923728
wind spade
@fresh geyser
Factory -->-----Smart Splitter---->---Storage
|
Overflow
|
Sink
ok so its the same problem i need to unlock it gotcha thank you
sullen marsh
argues with guy who made math tool lel
celest vault
thinks just because people did more than themselves should never be argued with
queen rivet
Normal splitter works, but of course at the cost of filling storage half as fast
fresh geyser
yeah thats why i use a 1/6 balancer on my plastic and rubber
i will do the same with the coke
wind spade
you can also do some workarounds, like chain of splitters or train/vehicle station to do overflow, but for now I'd go for unlocking smart splitter (caterium research iirc)
it's pretty useful imo
fresh geyser
gotcha
spring thorn
There is a overflow setup with many splitters and mergers
From before smart splitters being a thing
fresh geyser
interesting
celest vault
There's also the nightmares that were built before lifts were a thing.
spring thorn
But I would just unlock smart splitters
celest vault
Beautiful nightmares, but still nightmares.
spring thorn
They look really cool
You can try it once if you want before moving to smart splitters
I think I still have the setup
celest vault
I think it'd cost less time to just research the smart splitter.
fresh geyser
ok its look like this a 1/1000 overflow
boreal cypress
There's also the nightmares that were built before lifts were a thing.
@celest vault you mean the stackable conveyor belt lift elevators?
wind spade
@fresh geyser there's also a train or tractor station overflow, which does 100% overflow, but it's a bit bigger than this
celest vault
Yeah, I do, HISKI, those things were pretty, but nightmarish to build.
spring thorn
And you need trains to be unlocked for that
wind spade
or trucks
boreal cypress
I'm going to build a 1:17 balancer now, have a good one
@spring thorn why not 1:35? :D
celest vault
Oh! Just underclock all of them, make 36 instead. Split 3:3:2:2
spring thorn
1:97
Oh! Just underclock all of them, make 36 instead. Split 3:3:2:2
@celest vault never seen anything as easy as this. Your convinced me
fresh geyser
im looking for a 1:100 ๐
celest vault
xD
queen rivet
Prime numbers or get out
boreal cypress
im looking for a 1:100 ๐
@fresh geyser easy :D manifold :P
wind spade
another option is to build a manifold
fresh geyser
ahahahah
boreal cypress
fun fact.... 1n1 is always a prime numer
n=any number of zeros
spring thorn
1x1, unlucky expression
boreal cypress
1x1, unlucky expression
@spring thorn thats why i changed it xD
spring thorn
xD
queen rivet
@boreal cypress I'm thinking that can't quite be true otherwise "finding the highest known prime number" would be rather trivial.
boreal cypress
@boreal cypress I'm thinking that can't quite be true otherwise "finding the highest known prime number" would be rather trivial.
@queen rivet i know but its true and i dont know why
wind spade
Disclaimer:
Any time from now in the future or any time back in the past when I'll mention manifolds as an answer to a question or as a soltution to a problem, I mean it in a non-forcing way, only suggesting an alternative. My personal opinion is that they are more useful in most cases, but in the end, it's up to the player himself to decide. If you (or anyone) feel that my manifold suggestion was forcing or wrong, please link this message so that it can be made clear, that my intentions are good and I don't mean to cause any harm.
fresh geyser
i found this sheet is there a better one https://i.redd.it/tx9gt3whtfm31.png ?
wind spade
@celest vault is that fine? ๐
celest vault
The number 10000001 can be evenly divided by 1, 11, 909,091 and 10,000,001, with no remainder.
boreal cypress
oh xD than nvm :D
spring thorn
@wind spade I will copy that and use it in the future, is that's ok
wind spade
go for it lol
celest vault
That's more than fine. Excessive even. But thanks.
boreal cypress
well 1n1 sounded nice in my mind xD thx for proving me wrong
wind spade
I mean... at least it doesn't give space for wrong interpretation or discussion ๐
celest vault
If there's one thing I've learned from the many euler project bullshit I've done, it's that prime numbers are retarded.
spring thorn
Big Brain move. Use a 1/6 balancer, attach the 1/6 to 1 machine and manifold the other 5
With the 5/6
celest vault
That just hurts to think about, Jones
sullen marsh
what about a 0.5/69 to 420 manifolds
celest vault
Nono, a 3.50/69 to 420 manifolds.
boreal cypress
uff Joshie xD
fresh geyser
1337
fierce ruin
i need to split 69 lines into 420 machines
celest vault
Showoff :V
sullen marsh
man, i fold to these arguments
celest vault
Ohno
spring thorn
Oh my
celest vault
Quick, start another discussion, these last few messages are too meme-y.
wind spade
trucks are bad
boreal cypress
manifold>balance
celest vault
But fun
boreal cypress
trains are better
celest vault
Confession: I've never used the Unit.
boreal cypress
but ... hmmm colliding trucks are ... well very funny :D
wind spade
not funny to repair ๐ค
spring thorn
trucks on manifold lines
boreal cypress
why do you need to repair? just go away and the respawn on there nodes
celest vault
Trucks on trains
boreal cypress
trains on trucks
spring thorn
trains on trucks on lizard doggos
wind spade
@boreal cypress there have been reports of trucks teleporting randomly to 0|0 or elsewhere on the map and never coming back
celest vault
F
wind spade
and iirc it always happened when there was a collision on the route
though not sure if it's related
boreal cypress
@boreal cypress there have been reports of trucks teleporting randomly to 0|0 or elsewhere on the map and never coming back
@wind spade well uff
wind spade
still the colliding trucks mean that your throughput can vary, which isn't fun ๐
boreal cypress
well kibitz had a lot of fun with his trucks on livestream
celest vault
Still waiting for a truck ballet video that goes perfectly in the beginning and ends up with clipping nightmare and trucks flying away.
boreal cypress
and perfect synchronizing with the music?
celest vault
Of course. Maybe Bohemian Rhapsody. Some Beethoven, Skrillex, dunno.
wind spade
I'd do some dragonforce for added challenge
barren elm
Been tempted to try a truck only factory just for giggles
They really need to buff trucks somehow because outside of novelty they're just a pain in the ass to use and offer no long term advantages
quick sundial
is there a collection of popular ratios for different items anywhere? ive been looking around without luck
muted crypt
ratios just in terms of timings alone or when taking into account resource consumption as well?
quick sundial
consumption included i guess
muted crypt
satisfactorytools (linked in pins) can find your optimal resource path and help you find ideal ratios
quick sundial
ok thanks
muted crypt
iirc it makes use of what alts you have available and will tell you how many machines you need, equivalent to clock speed quantity
so if you need three and a half of a machine for example (three at 100% + one at 50%) it'll give you 3.50x [machine]
quick sundial
so just input what i want with mazimize selected and then input my available resources?
fierce ruin
i need someone to quickly hop onto the world to make sure i did my balancer setup correctly for screws, rotors, and reinforced iron plates
cuz thats my most concerning thing at the moment.
glacial hemlock
๐ซ 
warm wren
@fierce ruin It'd be super hard for anyone to look at your set up and figure out anything easily, also we don't generally do balancing that much, just manifolds.
warm wren
I tried something I didn't think would work from previous experience but I'm not sure why it didn't work. I'm trying to figure out the best way to describe it.
stark bronze
Is there a better route with alts? How do i choose between them
wind spade
there is
make diluted packaged fuel and use that for plastic/rubber loop
if you want plastic or rubber.
if you want fuel, you already have it from the diluted packaged fuel
stark bronze
Ill look into that
wind spade
boreal cypress
or try to find compact coal and turbo fuel alternate
your fuel gens are gonna .... BOOOOM
but beware ... Turbofuel with 300 oil is really satanic
maiden cloud
k
glacial hemlock
or wiki. Wiki should have the everything you need, and if there is anything missing, let me know too!
feral tiger
wind spade
overclocking is never necessary
sullen marsh
what if you have no more space in the world for machines?
wind spade
that will never happen
boreal cypress
its necessary on miners
sullen marsh
yeah greeny!
boreal cypress
you can only get 156 TMotors per minute when you overclock miners
muted crypt
oh, @wind spade, bando wanted me to show you the "ideal train loop calculator" I made when I got bored of doing the calculations myself last night
bleak reef
sare men meta
muted crypt
idk if you ever saw last night when he pinged you last night
hot ginkgo
Boo.
muted crypt
hey lol
hot ginkgo
I just happened to be creeping by, watching the drama in the help channel. And saw my name pop up.
wind spade
I saw a ping, but wasn't able to find a message
boreal cypress
Boo.
@hot ginkgo you missed the m
hot ginkgo
muted crypt
watching the drama
where? ๐
hot ginkgo
@wind spade raptor coded a train chooput calculator. Was seeing if you could implement it.
wind spade
I already have a reddit post about trains ๐ค
hot ginkgo
I know. But he made a calculator to do all the math for you. Just plug in the numbers.
muted crypt
this one doesn't use perfect 1/2x multiples of the different tiers of belts
it uses the actual number required
so like for example my upcoming factory plan needs 762 caterium/min
boreal cypress
@muted crypt can you post it again?
muted crypt
I mean this is just output but this is all it looks like in its primitive state
I just have test examples set to display
that last one should be 106.666667s but it just rounds up
when doing this I found out that math.ceil(93.762) in python is slower than int(-(-93.762 // 1)) by a significant margin
boreal cypress
is this with loading and unloading?
muted crypt
but that's irrelevant, lol
this just calculates the maximum amount of time a train with a single wagon is allowed to provide for x items per minute
wind spade
you need to include loading and unloading time lol
muted crypt
you effectively add +100% of the time for each wagon you add, but again assuming they're full
that's taken into account in loop time
one round trip is from the end of the unload animation at the dropoff station to the end of the next instance of the unload animation at the dropoff station
so naturally that third example is impossible due to load/unload time
idle vigil
This isn't really telling you much. It's just 32 stacks divided by the rate to give a total time, it doesn't take loading/unloading into account at all
muted crypt
so you do the +1 wagon = +100% duration
it doesn't take loading/unloading into account at all
that's taken into account in loop time
does nobody read
I also never said it was that solid of a calculator
it's something I made in like 3 minutes in a python editor
it ain't that deep
hot ginkgo
@idle vigil it does, that's part of your total loop time.
idle vigil
I can do that with one operation. 32*100/480 = loop time.
muted crypt
yeah, I got tired of putting all the numbers in manually into a calculator
muted crypt
I'm not belting for 4.5 kilometers, though.
sullen marsh
you have to put the rails down so why not belt
idle vigil
the only number you're not putting is is the 32 stacks per car
muted crypt
Less resource investment
wind spade
josh let the adults talk
idle vigil
but if it helps you
muted crypt
also, @idle vigil, your calculation was wrong
idle vigil
I got the same answer you did
muted crypt
you put in requirements per minute, you didn't include converting that to seconds
ยฏ_(ใ)_/ยฏ
1920 * [stack size] / [requirement per minute] = loop time (seconds)
idle vigil
6.66 minutes is 6:40
muted crypt
easier in seconds imo
idle vigil
If you need a calculator to tell you how many seconds are in a minute
muted crypt
but meh
If you need a calculator to tell you how many seconds are in a minute
@idle vigil what are you insinuating
idle vigil
I could see it being useful if you plugged in a rate and a belt speed and it told you the number of platforms required
muted crypt
Would it make you happy if I did that
Would that be more appealing to you?
Since evidently you're so high and mighty and my already-noted-as-shitty three-minute project isn't good enough for you?
idle vigil
I wondered how you accounted for unloading/loading as you suggested, because that's the challenge with trains, but the answer was it wasn't considered. I was just noting that
muted crypt
Do you want it to assume just one belt per freight platform, or shall I use two?
Or perhaps I could make it the user's choice
idle vigil
You do whatever you want
strong bison
Hello, I am currently playing on this map and want to ask if anyone has an idea how i should use them properly to get 100% efficency for smelters?
glacial hemlock
divide ore mining rate by 30 to get number of smelters.
strong bison
alright, is it possible to divide 150 / min tho, if my belt can only hanlde 120?
because i cant connect splitters to miners without using at least 1 belt
boreal cypress
nope you cant do it and why do you have such strange numbers?
normal is 60 with mk1 and unpure 30
strong bison
xd because the ones with 150 have full upgrade with those power shards
boreal cypress
with mk2 its x2
strong bison
and those with 75 too
boreal cypress
jeah useless than xD
strong bison
noooooooooooo
boreal cypress
you can only get what the max belt is ^^
thats why you cant get 1200 from a pure miner with 250%
boreal cypress
max is 780 :3
insane is one/two mods which gives u a 6x2000 per minute miner and 2000 item per minute belt
boreal cypress
but you should stay with vanilla in the first playthrough ^^
strong bison
true true ๐
oh yes and i have another quick question, when should you start using manifiold? (at which tier)
neat matrix
When you have the logistic you could use it in all tiers
wind spade
@strong bison just btw it's the same map
strong bison
oh ok thanks ๐
@strong bison just btw it's the same map
@wind spade oh sorry, i actually ment the location ^^ but thanks ๐
wind spade
yeah np
there's a lot of people that think that those are 4 different maps, so I rather tell you now ๐
sage stirrup
there should be 45
3 mk2 miners with full power slugs
but because the pipes cant keep up its a bit unstable but not enough to just randomly shut down
boreal cypress
how many generators do you have there
@muted crypt 1...2...3...5... fuck miscounted
sage stirrup
yes and 1 is blocked
muted crypt
are you using mk4 belts or are you only using mk3 and missing out on 30 coal per minute per node?
quasi knot
and im pretty sure the math is right the pipes just cant keep up
i prefer use 1 water pump at 150% with 4 coal gens, its save space with no additional pipes
boreal cypress
but more power consumption
muted crypt
in theory you should be able to support 72 generators off of four full mk3 belts of coal
sage stirrup
i dont have mk4 yet
boreal cypress
a machine with 200% use more then 400% more power @quasi knot
muted crypt
433% @boreal cypress
well actually
sorry, that's 250%
303% power at 200% clock
433% at 250% clock
191% at 150% clock
quasi knot
but 150% for water pump stiil worth
visual mortar
i need some math help
boreal cypress
nope
visual mortar
ohh well fine
sage stirrup
tbh i realy dont care about how efficient it is i make like 5 times more energy then i need
boreal cypress
its not worth.... for nuclear its worth but not for coal @quasi knot
muted crypt
Only 5x? Rookie numbers
sage stirrup
jes i needet it to progress to make nuklear power
visual mortar
haha, i want to know how many constructors and stuff to use to make my miner never backup @muted crypt
sage stirrup
well to automate things to get to that level
muted crypt
@sage stirrup that reminds me of the 64-coal generator plant I made for the sole purpose of giving myself enough of a power buffer to set up turbofuel
I needed an extra like 1.5 GW from what I was already producing to be able to support starting up the turbofuel and my then-current factory at the same time
sage stirrup
i need it for making things with caterium and oil
boreal cypress
i had 16 coal gens when i went to fuel gens xD than i had 120 fuel gens or so and then i went to 144 Nuclear Power Plants
quasi knot
anyway 1.2GW enoght for all production until you reach monorail and fuel
muted crypt
debatable
quasi knot
ofc, its enough for me
visual mortar
i want to know how many constructors and stuff to use to make my miner never backup, how can i do the math?
fresh geyser
Would making the material like rod and plate at the node location a good thing if i use train between base.
im brainstorming and its like i miss a piece of puzzle
muted crypt
To give you an example, what I'm doing is training all of the iron ore to a location along the eastern coast of the dunes desert that processes it all with water with the pure iron ingot alt recipe to make iron ingots, then combining some of it with coal using the solid steel ingot alt recipe to make steel ingots
fresh geyser
training you mean moving it by train?
muted crypt
yes
fresh geyser
go live in the desert would be a nice idea. there is a lot of node there
muted crypt
A lot of nodes, but the dunes make it hard to work with unless you're fine with just building above them
fresh geyser
gotcha
muted crypt
And in the early game, there's very little plant life
fresh geyser
so you need to fondation the whole place
muted crypt
so early power is a bit more convoluted
muted crypt
When update 3 launched, I started a brand new save and used the dunes desert as my starter zone
barren elm
I'm still debating whether dunes is actually a good place to be or not
muted crypt
@barren elm would you like my analysis?
barren elm
There's 0 bauxite and 0 oil which alone makes it kinda meh
muted crypt
I've only spent like... 170 hours in them
Bauxite is a problem, yes, but oil isn't that far away, it's along the northern coast to the west
barren elm
The one advantage seems to be the huge amounts of coal that are right against a body of water, but other than that I can't really see a reason to be there
muted crypt
Just a sec
muted crypt
there's a lot of green in here
fresh geyser
yeah the oil i will just pipeline it though the land
barren elm
A lot of that green is iron
muted crypt
if you want to look at it in terms of full raw resources, there's 29.58% of the entire map's iron (when taking into account mk3 miners and overclocking to 250% or full mk5 belt, whichever comes first) in the dunes
barren elm
And iron is, well, there's like 20x more of it on the map than you could ever realistically use
fresh geyser
you want as much node as possible
barren elm
To... what? Scrap?
fresh geyser
XD
muted crypt
ezpz
velvet fractal
Hey guys,
how do I divide 16 by 3? :)
I have 6 extractors at 100% and want to bring the 720 mยณ/min of water to my 16 coal gens
fresh geyser
its will only save half my need for screws XD
muted crypt
Three extractors at 100% can fill two pipes with 180/min
each of those pipes will provide water for 4 generators
fresh geyser
water is pretty good at manifold
fresh geyser
i split the 3rd one in 2
barren elm
Yeah but you don't have to put each water extractor on one end and each coal gen on the other
velvet fractal
ah, and bring it back to the others
barren elm
You can stagger your water gens and coal gens
fresh geyser
i use 2 pipeline pump to split the last one
connect with another 3 extractor
so a 5 water extractor setup
muted crypt
you can also underclock each water extractor to 75%, one extractor will then provide enough water for two generators
fresh geyser
with 2 line
velvet fractal
I don't have space for 8 extractors in that stupid lake ๐
muted crypt
you save power that way, which is nice
velvet fractal
was my original plan
fresh geyser
i did the overcloak at my main base because water area