@wind spade /not worthy /not worthy
#math-and-meta
warm wren
wind spade
so you rather burn ores for inefficient builds just for the purpose of being burned rather than keep them to improve some process later?
warm wren
we are all not worthy of all these tools people make 😢
vernal anvil
who says it is inefficient? The overflow stuff just gets burned away for mooooore coupons
wind spade
if you burn copper ore for copper ingot to go to sink, then it's inefficient
because there almost always is a process that can help you get more coupons
vernal anvil
I never burn copper ores or ingots to the sink
wind spade
itwas just an example
vernal anvil
but if have for example somewhere 15wire/min as an overflow, I will burn it away to keep everything running 😄
wind spade
yeah and I keep the wire to use in future builds or rather not build the wire at all
warm wren
Wonder if we'll ever be able to overclock the steam power nodes. 
They're worth 3800 now if you tap them all, if you could put 3 shards in each you'd get 9500.
vernal anvil
well greeny, like I said before, we have different views, different game approaches, different experiences, what's the point of trying to convince each other? ❤️
warm wren
@wind spade But my dreeaaaam... don't crush my dream.
wind spade
@vernal anvil just saying that there was a tool to do that and there also will be a tool to do that
@warm wren crushed sorry
vernal anvil
@warm wren you just want easy power, you = lazy (it's intended to be a laugh btw :p )
warm wren
Bro, I have a 40 nuke reactors 😛
wind spade
then geysers are like a drop in a sea
glacial hemlock
@vernal anvil if you still care about individual buildings like what is indicated in the above image, it will be very hard to manage a mega base. Think big, try to quantize the buildings in groups of 'belts'
for simple end game target, lets start with 154 turbomotors / min
for copper ingot, divide them into 10, with 3:3:4. 3 for copper sheets and wire each, 4 for fused quickwire
a copper pure node will always produce enough ores for 52 refineries, then output into 2.5 belts, for iron it is 23 and outputs 1.9 belts ... and so on
winged quest
154 turbomotors/m , is that even possible?
vernal anvil
I think it is, but it is huge 😄
if you need 154 turbo/minute, that's another discussion xD
upbeat tide
It takes 2444 alclad a min to start
Thats very close to absolute max, which is 2476 alclad
In raw ingredients
Iron - 773.95
Copper - 9989.01
Limestone - 9116.9
Coal - 4370.67
Raw quartz - 9540.14
Caterium - 5137.47
Bauxite - 7700
Water - 38307.30 m3
Crude oil - 1622 m3
winged quest
for how many tm/m?
upbeat tide
That list not alts
For every alternate you need to disable its normal version to force the calc to use the alt correctly
winged quest
Right, i forgot to add radio control system alt.
it was using vanilla recipe for radio u it
fresh elm
It will use the alternate if it's better
I was playing with it last night
After I asked which calc you use ;)
upbeat tide
Not necessarially. Cheap silica is better than silica but yoy have to disable silica for cheap silica to show up
upbeat tide
Agreed
Its still interesting with all the alts in the game a 150 tm factory is indeed possible. Close to the max tho just because of alclad
fresh elm
I spent absolutely no time on the 100 hmf design last night instead I was mucking with trying to make refineries look less boring
Since I am pretty sure that's the only building we use anymore ;)
glacial hemlock
concrete is the 2nd most abundant resources after iron, and quartz is about mid-rare, so cheap silica is good to go.
fresh elm
I was talking about weighting in the calculator app
And how it's prob just not correct
glacial hemlock
i see
fresh elm
Anything you can replace with limestone or iron is always worth to do that
Though I don't always follow my own advice, as I will use the rotor alt to make it look like a stator to make motors every time
Because that's just too clean a design not to use for me
glacial hemlock
hmm...
frail wolf
there is only 7800 baux atm, due to being limmited by max belt speed, or you guys using mods
upbeat tide
No mods
With the electro scrap alt, normal alu ingot the max alclad sheets is 2476 a min
frail wolf
@upbeat tide wow tnx man I was using the pure ingot one in my calculation..
upbeat tide
Yea pure ingot elinimates 25% of uour alu ingot total
4:1 scrap ratio instead of 3:1
frail wolf
Yeah somehow I got them turned around. guess I could use the extra to make batteries instead.
upbeat tide
Also use cheap silica. Saves a wallop on your raw quartz
dusky quail
say you get 1 pure node of every resource, which resources would yall value more than the others?
summer field
Friendship.
glacial hemlock
it will be Copper, lol, because you only have 780 of each, and Copper will be consumed the most.
fierce ruin
nah oil cuz I'm still stuck with one 300m^3/m pipe
and I could do so much crap with oil potentially
that rubber + petrocoke = circuitboards recipe alone is pretty laffo for "something awesome made out of JUST OIL"
upbeat tide
Think of it this way. If you want petro coke, the heavy oil residue alt will do the trick nicely.
For example im planning to use my impure node for that and More
150m3 oil -> 200m3 hor and 100 resin a min
100 resin - residual plastic 1.66x -> 33 plastic -> empty canisters 63/min
90HOR - 1.5x residual fuel -> package fuel 60/min (there abouts)
110 HOR - petro coke -> 2.75x -> 330 a min
13 redineries and 1 constructor for that, kinda impressive imo
wind spade
@dusky quail if you're interested, these are calculated weights of resources based on their total availability on the map and max extraction rates (including belt/pipe limitation):
coal: 7.419,
oil: 30.568,
bauxite: 29.392,
copper: 7.944,
cateirum: 20.766,
iron: 3.257,
uranium: 127.367,
quartz: 20.324,
limestone: 4.337,
sulfur: 33.518,
bigger number = rarer item
fierce ruin
I mean that's 1 300 m^3/min pipe
northern shore as is, you can easy do 9
2700 oil -> 1800 fuel worst, most naive case
and hey 1200 compacted coal makes that ~1500 turbofuel
ample jigawatts to shove marty back to the future
dusky quail
@wind spade thanks, that's decently useful
I have about 1 pure node of each resource, which is why I was wondering
wind spade
if you want it with a bit nicer numbers, you can e.g. divide all numbers by 3.257, so that iron = 1 and then you know how much more "valuable" is any other resource against iron ore
quartz wedge
does anyone have a good plastic and rubber factory build idea i could look at for the west oil fields ? im thinking use using 1 pure and 1 normal per item
rancid lark
Did some math earlier today prototyping gathering all the caterium in the world for processing. Caterium is a bit unique since there's so few recipes for it and it's only useful in ingot form.
Total Caterium Ore: 11,040/min
Caterium Ingots: 3680/min (245.33 smelters)
or
Pure Caterium Ingots: 5520/min (460 refineries + 92 water extractors)
Need a little over 7 freight platforms per minute to gather all that ore for processing. Assuming a 15 minute train ride that's a loooooong train 🙂
quartz wedge
@fierce ruin im just trying to figure out the numbers and i can't seem to get them corectly
rancid lark
best rubber/plastic chain is diluted packed fuel and then recycled plastic/rubber out of the fuel
quartz wedge
@rancid lark im still looking for the alt recipes
upbeat tide
What alts do you have?
Heavy oil residude alt?
Diluted packaged fuel?
Recycled rubber or plastic?
quartz wedge
they
im using the 13 northern oil fields to fuel 90 generators with vanilla recipes
upbeat tide
Yea not much you can do with just the HOR alt
quartz wedge
i was looking at the wiki about the turbo fuel line and can't wait to make it
upbeat tide
You need recycled rubber and or plastic to use fuel
quartz wedge
guess ill go adventuring some more
quartz wedge
oh ty for that
plush pebble
why is this game have fps drops so many
upbeat tide
Auto save is a hard save so it freezes the game as if your manually saving
@quartz wedge in order to get some of the alts to show up in the chart you may need to disable some standard recipes. Not hard to get the hang of tho
plush pebble
freezing like i jumped from a mountain its fps drops after rises when i landed
upbeat tide
Specs?
plush pebble
wha is that mean
upbeat tide
What is your pc specs?
plush pebble
oh
quartz wedge
@upbeat tide oh wow ty for that site it looks interesting
plush pebble
i5 6400 8gb ram gtx 970 4 gb
quartz wedge
is there a way to pick the first input like 300 oil and see what the output would be ?
plush pebble
all settings is high-mid
upbeat tide
@quartz wedge its based off products, and its top -bottom laid out so you gotta play with it
@plush pebble your system isnt good for high graphics. Go to medium or low
plush pebble
hmm i will try thx a lot
forest oak
Challenge: Split 30 items per minute into 10 constructors that need 3 items per minute.
You have a 30 per min line that needs to evenly split into 10 constructors that each need 3 of the items per min to work 100% effectively.
upbeat tide
Soo easy a manifold can do it
dim thicket
Oof
Imagine using splitters wrong and then making a challenge
There's actually something interesting there though, making a 1/5 splitter system
dusky quail
yea manifolds can split anything into anything really
upbeat tide
As long as you dont exceed pipe or belt limits, yup
glacial hemlock
@forest oak your answer is in the balancer page that i just attached day ago
round zinc
what I wanna know is, what comes out at 30/min in one line, but is processed at only 3/min?
upbeat tide
My insanity level going into the red 🙂
glacial hemlock
@round zinc nobelisk?!? but no, nobelisk comes out at 3/min in one line, but is processed at 30/min
upbeat tide
Sounds like a big underclock setup
fresh elm
1:5 balancers there are several ways you can accomplish with load balancing - the one that tends to come up online is a refeeder
1:10 would be a single split and two refeeder 1:5s
rocky elm
where's the best place to put a priority splitter for a sink?
fresh elm
right before your output to central storage? or right before your bins in central storage?
round zinc
depends if you're sinking a product or a component, too
fresh elm
I sink everything.
rocky elm
I don't really have a centeral storage, I'm doing a bit of a factorio line.
fresh elm
anythign that isn't going into a bin turns into point
round zinc
My sink game is not that on point.
fresh elm
if you're trying to do the main bus style, with belt speed limitations you're going to have some problems.
some pretty big hairy and annoying problems
rocky elm
well, I've noticed that some belts are too slow, but I can use two belts and a load balencer to help midigate the issues.
fresh elm
yeah... at 780/minute you're going to have a problem even with the top speed belts
it will "work" but I just thought I'd warn you in advance
I tried that way first too
round zinc
Factorio buses work because there's no such thing as direct input, so your input speeds are always limited by inserters and having drive-by belts is how you get things inserted. In this game you actually have to route the item INTO the machine so it's not as friendly to the bus
rocky elm
well, I'm sure my two freinds will figure out best methods later, XD
fresh elm
I sort of have a manifold that works similarly in a few places
rocky elm
but sink befor storage then?
fresh elm
well, you probably do want some sort of central storage at some point
it's going to help you build faster - one stop shopping for the materials you need to build
rocky elm
well every item has a storage box :V
fresh elm
yes, but once your factory has bits separated by km you will not want to run get them
it's nice when everything is within a couple hundred meters
rocky elm
eventually I can route everything back to the hub area, but for now it's fine.
fresh elm
I only give you the tip because it's the antithesis of how you build but it will save you a lot of time later. build the awy you like 🙂
rocky elm
just asking, have the priority system befor storage, yes?
fresh elm
the game has a lot of options for all sorts of types of players
round zinc
I'll be honest, I need to do a central storage area. My main base is a bit of a mess
fresh elm
and yeah - basically the way I see it, any item I want to put in my inventory has highest priority. if you sink near where you're storing stuff, you can combine multiple lines to save power sinking it
rocky elm
hell, if the sink is before storage, might be enough incentive to build a centeral storage just because priority spitters are huge.
fresh elm
I also use priority splitters like this:
if you're making or combining things in at rates taht can vary (like taking the overflow from one system and sending it to another)
rocky elm
I was just goign to priority then shutter the overflow to a few sink boxes and have a few sinks take that in.
fresh elm
Add a priority splitter with a slower belt to refeed, split off the excess and send to sink / next target
rocky elm
because once it's being sunk, I could care less if things are being mixed together.
fresh elm
that's a mk5 belt feeding a mk3 belt with overflow going to sink in another mk5 to the left
yes that's what I do 🙂
fresh elm
the mk3 btw goes into another merger to feed the entire mk5 belt system again. this ensures even if your system is feeding slower belts they will all get consumed or sent off to shred
rocky elm
I'm still at mk2 belts to be honest.
fresh elm
that's the only way I will do manifolds anymore, as they are not exactly ideal
(particularly since we have multiple outputs from buildings now and if one backs up you're done)
round zinc
mk2 belts are unfun
fresh elm
I use mk2 belts all over
there aren't a lot of buildings that take more than 120 items / minute
round zinc
it's a lot easier to get mass quantities of steel
rocky elm
let me refrase, I haven't unlocked all of t3 and 4 and 5 and 6 are not avalible yet :V
fresh elm
why not make mk2 belts
helps w/ load balancing, too
you can guarantee 120 are going down that belt
round zinc
I mean, I don't -need- the speed of a mk3 much. But I produce a lot more steel than I do reinforced plates and I don't feel the need to make more reinforced plate factories when I can just make more steel foundries.
rocky elm
I only just finished coal XD
round zinc
and now that the overflow splitter is a thing, I can safely use coke to fuel the steel foundries without fear that I'm going to back up and trip my oil production
rocky elm
I haven't even unlocked smart splitters yet lol.
rocky elm
well right now I just want to know where to put the priority splitter XD
rocky elm
so what's the option other than main bus? just having a certain amount of nodes feeding individual processes?(aka, you have one factory making iron prodocts, another factory a few hundred meters away doing copper, and another 500 m away doing steel?)
round zinc
Basically, yeah, distributed factories
though you can't completely segregate it like that. Lots of stuff will need a few different inputs
so sometimes you run it over from another source, sometimes you just build the factory where it's convenient
ember copper
You could do it super modular like those factorio setups for the self-replicating factory
I imagine height would make that pretty easy, you would waste a lot of space tho
rocky elm
a self replicating factory in factorio sounds like somethign only doable becasue of drones and blueprints XD
round zinc
well, even leaving that aside, in Factorio it's very easy to expand a rail network to bring in additional resources. In Satisfactory dealing with terrain is very much not trivial.
ember copper
Yup, and circuits
rocky elm
building around terrian to bring back to the main bus is actually one of the more fun bits for me, I like the idea of shipping stuff long distances as needed, XD
round zinc
though even I have a little copper line going, moving ingots back and forth. But I could have done it with belts alone really
rocky elm
I loved getting the suger cube back before update one lol, used it for a lot of stuff.
both smart and stupid
glacial hemlock
anything that involves a long belt can be replaced with a train. Anything that involves more belts can be replaced with longer train.
rocky elm
made bridges and ramps and shit and then set up it's automatic route to bring coal back to my base.
I have a habbit of setting up over the big bottomless void near the edge of the grasslands, even though all the iron nodes are inpure, 8 of them make it pretty easy to do an eairly game thing.
ember copper
I would love some form of terrain manipulation, though I imagine it would never happen since they would either need to make it dynamic (and height only, which I would still like more than the current static way of doing it) or move to a voxel-based system like astroneer or similar
And I know neither will happen
rocky elm
I would like to see some kind of random stuff, terian and node placment.
glacial hemlock
!faq
rocky elm
at least random node and resorce placment.
glacial hemlock
!Q&A
ember copper
that is planned
rocky elm
that's good.
glacial hemlock
what is the command again? 😆
fresh elm
the map itself will not be random
but they have talked about somethign to randomize the resources
though tbh, since a lot of the map looks like resources go there, you'll prob still find things in resource spots 🙂
rocky elm
not really a big deal, to be honest even with factorios seed generated maps they were so similar that there was also a better copper area to the right of where we built the base.
but having random spots for resorsorces adds some kind of need to figure out how to build around it, unlike now were you can find your fav spot and never really explore.
glacial hemlock
hmm....
upbeat tide
You kinda have to explore though. Hard drives, slugs, rarer resources...
glacial hemlock
if you think that small factories are satisfying, then the statement can be true.
rocky elm
well I can look up exactly where to find all that stuff, and I've already memorised where all the slugs are near my current fav spot.
upbeat tide
Ok
rocky elm
just saying, random resorce and node placement will be nice, XD
glacial hemlock
@rocky elm you should really look into some spider caves, they are more fun compared to the greeny slugs those sit on the surface
upbeat tide
Knowing where stuff is and building to use it are two totally different things
glacial hemlock
||I would say no random resources before the converter is out.||
upbeat tide
My issue with random resources is balance. You may get a random seed that has 26 impure oil nodes, 90 pure iron, no uranium, lacking bauxite, or any combination you could think of if its randomized that way
rocky elm
well I mean have the same nodes and resorces, just change where they are randomly.
it's not too hard to do that, or if you want random numbers but want to make sure you always have access, you can set rules to the RNG, like no less than x inpure iron, no more than y pure iron, etc.
glacial hemlock
resources nodes often paired with some terrain puzzles, hostile creature spawning, boulders, etc. So these will need to be changed too.
round zinc
Yeah, "random within limits" is probably a good idea. I mean, if you start in the grasslands and there's no oil or coal except at the north of the map, then what do ya do
glacial hemlock
SAM nodes, for example, mostly hide in caves
upbeat tide
Well then you have start zone imbalance then. There is a reason why all 4 start zones have certain pros and cons, to give a different experience
Also with random locations even without changing count could make it so all the rare resources are geouped in one spot. Could actually ruin balance so to speak
glacial hemlock
it is a good to have feature but certainly not the higher priority on the dev list. What we need now is more tiers and new contents
round zinc
the game -definitely- uses resource availability as a way to get you to branch out.
rocky elm
you cna also limit the spot nodes can appear if your that worried about it, can make it so certain rare resorces are always in a cave, for example.
this is stuff I've played with in game design, it's not easy, but can be useful when doing anything random, generally, controlled randomness is better than full randomness in my opinion.
upbeat tide
Issue is the only resources that benefit from randomness are the rares, and once you start locking those down the whole idea becomes pointless
The common ores, limestone, copper, and iron can be found in any biome for example to usually high quantity, so randomizing those is kinda useless.
rocky elm
well, we'll see what the devs do, consitering it's a planned feature, even if one that's a ways away.
upbeat tide
True
glacial hemlock
randomizing resources is nowhere near to be 'easy', consider factorio teams have spent months to years to optimize that
rocky elm
yep
the freind I design with specalizes in that sort of programming and he still struggles with it.
round zinc
honestly, I think the random hard drive contents do a good job there. Some games you will get really good alt recipes early, some games you will get, well, rubber concrete.
But you're never locked -out- of getting good recipes, you just get encouraged to explore more
fresh elm
honestly, the way that resources are placed now is actually pretty decent
with only a few exceptions, materials are radiated from the starting areas pretty well in terms of rarity
round zinc
I -still- don't have a good quartz setup
fresh elm
some people might say that cuts down on replayability by not moving things around
but TBH most of the time in this game is spent designing and building the factory
not gathering the resources...
I've got 7 worlds I've made since the alpha, and they all have played and felt completely different - a lot because my building style has improved a lot
though I still play on world I made pre u1
(the big thing for me, really, is that certain things are irreversible, like cutting down flora)
if I gain the ability to replant an area (whether by placing manually or paying a bunch of mats to "Reset a biome"
or like say 50m from this spot radius gets reseeded
round zinc
eh, that might not be bad, but I don't wanna have to re-prune constantly
fresh elm
oh, it could be expensive as hell
make it 1000 tickets to reseed a biome
I don't want it to constantly regrow, I want it to do it cuz I told it to
(I.e. I've torn down a factory in an area and want to rebuild but want it to look natural again first)
round zinc
miracle-grow fertilizer equipment item
fresh elm
basically yeah that's what I want.
I just want to be able to reset an area or plant trees/bushes/etc so that it doesn't look like I cleared it. willing to pay the cost in wood/leaves/flowers to put it back, since doggos give infinite resources of leaves/wood
royal stream
sand garnet
I would like something to 'replant chunks' but considering Jace cited 'this isnt something Ficsit cares about' when talking about renewable energy, I dont see it happening
round zinc
I mean, they have renewable energy, it's just finite and a reward for exploration and tech development.
There's no point in geothermal plants if you can just plonk down 200MW of solar panels anywhere you like.
sand garnet
it could be offset by a significant size and/ or item requirements
complexity for solar panels could also be added with battery requirements and complexity of building them
woeful skiff
Coal and oil are both an infinite supply in the game so the concept of "renewable" doesn't really apply. From a gameplay mechanic perspective, stuff like solar / wind would need some sort of constraints for game balance. The "Ficsit doesn't care about it" argument is valid, but they could still justify it if they think adding that stuff is cool enough.
round zinc
Size requirements don't really come into play given that you've got a LOT of space you're not going to use, unless we're talking "battleship size and 5MW production" heh. I'd handwave wind away - "atmosphere isn't thick enough for it, just look how high you're jumping"
Bluntly, if you can build solar at endgame nobody would bother dealing with radiation
woeful skiff
Not if the smog from your factories tanked the solar panel efficiency.
Although you could work around that by just putting them far away from each other.
sand garnet
@woeful skiff sure but for the sake of consistency, renewable means the real world definition of renewables
Solar power could be variable with introduction of clouds for example
wind could also be a variable easily added
woeful skiff
I was thinking along the same lines. With clouds (and pollution from factories) + wind, that could provide the balance by making it an inherently unpredictable amount of power gen.
sand garnet
i dont like the concept of pollution personally
unless we could permanently upgrade our suit to deal with pollution so it would be like playing regularly
round zinc
Yeah, but there'd be some baseline-usable number and people would just multiply how many they build by that.
sand garnet
power has never been an issue in this game though
you can have over 1 TW of power in this game
round zinc
sure, but then why drop in more methods of generation?
sand garnet
its just a matter of 'i really dont want to build that much'
woeful skiff
I agree, not once you get past bio. (I've never really gotten to end-game mega scale stuff so I can't comment on that)
sand garnet
to make gameplay options more varied? give more freedom?
to not lock people into a certain playstyle in a semi-sandbox game
round zinc
I feel like the freedom in this case is "freedom of having to interact with the power system at all"
right now you've got choices between a limited option that uses a scarce, valuable resource and needs a lot of setup work, a different limited option that uses a different scarce, valuable resource and needs even more setup work plus can just back up and break, an option that's free-power-forever up to a certain limit and only accessible with a bunch of endgame materials, and nuclear, which has huge numbers but huge headache to get there and deal with it.
If they put in -any- option that's "just plonk down more wherever and don't ever mess with them" that will become the default best.
sand garnet
the way to make it 'annoying' for players to encourage them to try out other resources for power is to limit the amount of MW
nobody wants to spend 100h plopping down solar panels to generate as much power as 30 mins of placing something else
round zinc
okay, but lemme put it this way: if they're going to say "no, this isn't Factorio, you can't run your factory off this" anyway, why bother with the dev work in the first place? Just don't -do- it.
Putting it into the game and nerfing it into uselessness is the worst solution there.
woeful skiff
Well they've never really indicated that they are considering it, in fact their response is largely the opposite, we're engaged in hypothetical speculation here.
willow igloo
From my last run of multiplayer, we found that if you set up automation to turn leaves and sticks into solid biofuel, we only ran into the issue of needing more generators, not more fuel. We got to coal power while still having 20+ stacks of solid bio fuel in storage. If you are hand crafting power can be a pain, but not so bad if you automate your biofuel
solar seal
Is transporting Packaged Oil/Empty Canisters by Truck as janky as it seems? Looks like a lot of moving parts that are hard to check on.
I'm probably missing an easier solution than that and 2km pipeline time, too.
Guess I could just make dry goods on-site and ship those, but then I'm still not familiar with making the setup not kill itself with byproducts, so I imagine that's some more trips out there.
upbeat tide
Errrr dont package oil. Either use it on site or ship via train in liquid form
solar seal
Alright, so my instinct was right. : P
solar seal
Oh yeah. I'd forgotten there's a "make this disappear."
upbeat tide
If yoy have smart splitters yet, put a few down and set overflow to a sink
solar seal
You've changed my outlook on the situation. Thanks!
upbeat tide
Something like this will work if you dont have upgraded splitters yet
Your welcome.
Disclaimer:
FICSIT HR - Rule 12, Subsection 4, Part 1
FICSIT requires that all acceptance of guides, help, tips, tricks, or other intervention of any format, type, or kind therof provided by other FICSIT employees require a per infraction surcharge of one FICSIT Coupon per infraction.
Failure to abide by the above stipulation is considered deriliction of duty, and appropriate consequence is termination of employment.
Good day,
FICSIT HR
||really hope nobody takes a little role play too serious||
solar seal
I'm never gonna financially recover from this.
fierce ruin
actaully, that FICSIT manual is outdated. After Caterina Parks was fired by the board, the entire manual was rewritten, and that rule was abolished
glacial hemlock
The one shown above is just a stripped down version of a splitter-merger chain with a leakage chance of 1/6
willow igloo
If you go through 5 splitters, you can sink 1/243, which is acceptable until you get smart splitters
Wish there was an overflow for normal splitters
glacial hemlock
that's a bit too much. Consider it takes about 4-5 hours into caterium research, you could easily unlock the smart splitters around day 1 or day 2, and it will be certainly before the plastic.
lethal yarrow
not everyone plays that quickly
fresh elm
yeah, your average player isn't going to be that quick about any of this.
warm summit
Very easy question - I'm looking at setting up a central factory for my two pure limestone nodes with Mk1 Miners. I have Mk1 and Mk2 belts atm. What is the optimal number of constructors to have for this set up, and how should I split my belts?
dusky quail
Mk2 belt limit is 120, each constructor can do 45 limestone so 3 constructors per node (6 total)
willow igloo
Yep, 3 constructors will want 135/min, but it is fine because at least you're still utilizing everything being mined. As long as you're eating all of your raw materials it is fine to have slightly too much machine for the job
So each pure node turns into 40/min concrete and you can go about paving over the world
warm summit
Alright, 120/min into a splitter. If I hook up 3 belts, 2 60/m and 1 120/m, will I still get 40/m each way, or will the proportions change?
round zinc
40/m each way. The decision about which way an item goes from a splitter isn't dependent on the speed of the belt. Though if one of them backs up, the excess goes to the others, right?
wispy patrol
Yes
wheat quest
the overflow goes into the others, yes
wispy patrol
Normally a splitter with two outputs split the Items in half and with 3 Outputs in third - the only other way to split your items is the overflow method or with the programmable Splitter - They only change the direction of the Items but NOT the Ratio
warm summit
Thanks
fierce ruin
u dont need to load balance
delicate lagoon
In my each world I get caterium very early. Oh, what a nice shining resource. Oh, a can scan for it. In my current world I got AI limiter production line very early (half of the production was going into the sink). To unlock it you need tier 2 stuff.
All that is stoping you from getting smart splitters is finding the ore.
Sure, caterium ore is "unlocked" at tier 6, but looking at the tree, all filled with low tier requirements, it seems tier 6 is a point when you have to use it, not intended moment gor you t start using it. And caterium research tree is full of useful stuff.
fresh elm
I dunno, it gets you smart splitters right?
that's useful right as soon as you get it.
fierce ruin
smart splitters and blade runners. Always rush the early caternium stuff.
and sure longterm, the supercomputers -> geothermal deal isn't a great deal, but at the point you can first crash-build enough supercomps to get a free 3.2gw, ain't so bad
it's a bargain for a single easy car tour of the map
glacial hemlock
even nuclear power plant uses surprisingly low count of supercomputers
fierce ruin
yeah that's the other thing
don't free "I don't wanna automate supercomputers yet"
you can, as the game stands, absolutely get away with not having a train car full of em every 20s or w/e
round zinc
yeah, I automated them with a fairly slow, inefficient plant, and this is fine unless I want to start cranking out 5 turbo motors/min
glacial hemlock
this update removed 1 of the coal node. I am not sure when is the exact changes.
power slugs also get reduced.
verbal cloud
anyone know the formula to work out the power usage of a machine?
dense leaf
An overclocked one? I'm pretty sure the info on that on the wiki is still accurate
wind spade
@verbal cloud [power usage] = [original power usage] * ([oc %] / 100) ^ 1.6
verbal cloud
@wind spade thanks i found it eventually on the wiki implementing it into my excel spreadsheet was a whole other kettle of fish
wind spade
what are you trying to make? There are tools to do most of the work for you
also I'd suggest not overclocking stuff 😉 it's not power efficient
verbal cloud
oh by the way that's slightly incorrect it should be [power usage] = [original power usage] * ([oc %] / 100%) ^ 1.6
verbal cloud
not in excel its not
wind spade
what
it's literally the same values and same variables, what's different over my formula
verbal cloud
you have / 100 but it should be / 100%
wind spade
no
[oc %] means overclock value in %
so number between 1-250
why would you divide it by 100%, that doesn't even make sense. 100% of what?
verbal cloud
verbal cloud
if i put just 100 in excell at 250% clock on mk1 miner it says power is 0.1 (rounded up) but if i put 100% it says 21.7
verbal cloud
but im using the % for something else too
wind spade
always calculate with raw values. It's way better than worry about units and their relations and excel magic
verbal cloud
but i see what you mean though because i have 250% i have to use % for that formula too if i didnt use the % it would be correct too
thanks good tip i'll change it
wind spade
I think excel converts 100% internally to 1 and 250% to 2.5, so you may get wrong values
glacial hemlock
thanks @wind spade . Also, I added some words to further clarify the formula.
wind spade
both power usage and initial power usage are both measured in MW.
I'd maybe remove one both 🤔
glacial hemlock
Oops
wind spade
and it's there in both cases 😄
glacial hemlock
Correct😂
Sometime when i see elderly people uses percentage % in calculators, get wrong result, and it can be very frustrating. And i always convert percentage to decimal in the first step. Such as $50 x 0.7 instead of $50 - 30%
verbal cloud
@wind spade Is it the same formula for the water usage as coal usage for a coal generator?
wind spade
no
generators have different formula
basically the same, only instead of power consumed you use the power capacity and instead of 1.6 exponent, you use 1/1.3
glacial hemlock
@verbal cloud yes, water usage and coal usage have the same formula.
wind spade
uh
depends on how you read that question 😄
it's not the same formula as the OC formula for machines, but both water and coal use the other formula
glacial hemlock
if the coal generator is running at 75MW but you are only consuming 37.5MW out of it, it means you are utilizing half of its capacity. In that case, both coal and water consumption rate are halved. (7.5 coal per minute, 22.5m3 water)
verbal cloud
ok thanks @wind spade yeah i know its a different formula
pulsar stratus
Except for nuclear generator 1.321928
wind spade
yeah
but you can't overclock nuclear anyway
(and you shouldn't overclock others as well)
fresh elm
it's easy to see the appeal of overclocking a lot of machines, but power gives you such poor rate of return it is not worth it
there's a table or formula on teh wiki, but now I don't see it.
cedar mica
I only overclock power, if I need to kickstart another power factory. Else its not worth it
glacial hemlock
saw a video by TotalXclipse, it seems like head lift can be exploited.
willow igloo
How so
glacial hemlock
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5PqXlY3CYY by connecting upper extractors with lower extractors. All extractors then shares the highest head lift.
cedar mica
So send 1 pipe up with pumps, then let it flow into 300 lower pipes... Thats a massive power save
upbeat tide
Issue is that there isnt always an option to do that kind of pump work.
Such as, in my main oil region, the blue crater, the lake is at the bottom of the crater.
torpid robin
best place i see it working is the desert casue you have the lake on the moutain
but you could always pump one extractor and pipe super high on a tower. then let it come back down it should achieve the same thing
cedar mica
Yep, pump tower with just the minimal amount of pipes, then join it with the rest
torpid robin
i have pumped 64 pipe worth of water up the side of the cliff in the desert in my last save cause im an idiot. im never do that again lol if i can do it with one thats what il do. but i can see them changing that as its kinda broken lol
upbeat tide
Issue is the logistics, combining that one pipe into my 25 water pipes for example wont be fun
Thats at lake lvl in the blue crater tho so very little pumping needed
torpid robin
would it though? couldnt you just manifold at one end of your extractors. run the split off pipes down the middle. and connect your extractors in
upbeat tide
Yea just thought of that if I wanted , just put a directional pump before the high headlift pipe attaches
So that way no water leaks up the pipe so to speak
fierce ruin
what if i use the chainsaw to cut a hole in my pipe to eliminate wasting copper sheets for downward pipes?
upbeat tide
But I also build my pipes into groups of 6, in a 3x2 config
torpid robin
i dont think you would need to. well it may up to 10m from the headlift of the extractors. but wouldnt the pressure from above force it the way you wanted?
upbeat tide
shrugs dunno
wind spade
I'd maybe think about his prioritization of waiting for steam release over playing a good game
wind spade
sorry, your message implied for me that he's waiting for steam release to buy it
is this meant to be a speedrun or just random playing?
wise mango
we want to go fast, but not speedrun in the traditional sense. we're going to build decent looking buildings, etc...
wind spade
ah
then I'd just say take your time, even more important than planning who does what is planning the size and production lines of your factory
torpid robin
yea i have spent more time this playthrough. going over lines planning them out what i want to make and how to get them there. more time in lucid chart and a spread sheet and wiki than the game lol
tight anchor
I just started playing yesterday and the scope of the game is amazing. I've just unlocked tier 3/4 and getting more confused by the minute but having a blast. I keep having to rebuild to fit stuff in or start again. What should I be aiming for around tier 3/4?
torpid robin
to get to tier 5/6
i rushed my tiers then when you build you dont have to keep changing things
upbeat tide
My first game was a mess. But your main goal is to learn the basics, try stuff, make yourself a style, etc
torpid robin
i like that "make yourself a style" i have restarted multiple times cause i didnt like my style. takes a bit to decide on how you want to go about things. and dont be afraid to try new things
woeful skiff
after that in your subsequent games, you can make a mess in style
torpid robin
gotta be neat spaghet
upbeat tide
Even spagetifactory is a style. If you like it and it works efficiently, no stoppijg you
torpid robin
i suppose lol
upbeat tide
The meta maybe against you, but when does that stop ppl?
wind spade
eventually you just learn to build so that you never rebuild 🙂
dusky quail
one of the first big hurdles I tried to solve was building scalable factories
fierce ruin
alternatively you could build every factory prepared for the best tier of everything, like miner mk3 and mk5 belts
polar sleet
Lol that headlift bug also works with just one pump
round zinc
my best advice is this - don't rip up everything all the time
if a factory works for now, let it work
maybe you can get more production out of a complete rebuild, but if you don't need double the production, why worry about filling a container twice as fast and then sitting twice as long?
like... I have a sad little rotor factory that just churns out rotors. It's not good, it's not optimized, I haven't touched it in a while. When I built a motor factory it has a much nicer rotor production line in it
but sad little rotor factory keeps a container full of rotors, and I don't need enough additional rotors to be worth tearing it up to make more rotors faster
polar sleet
so yeah even this works... 
using the pump to create enough headlift to reach it's self
glacial hemlock
in real life the pump will simply overheat if set in this way.
eager geyser
im late but my big hurdle on scalable factories was space - i wanted everything organised floor by floor but as soon as i started needing to move my copper manufacturing to it, i couldve built another floor but then my assembler area becomes a sphagetti, so im now (slowly) setting up in the desert and making a giant base floor over it to build on and on and on like a mega base
glacial hemlock
good luck.... but for mega base, outposts are easier to manage than a centralized setup.
blissful patrol
what I usually do. I put all my buffers in a high elevated surface. then use the exists to transfer down to my rest of my factory.
glacial hemlock
if you build outposts, you face little space issue, as you can always expand each of them until outposts merge together. For centralized base, if you miscalculate the space required, you are pretty fked up.
blissful patrol
and I hide my piping systems below the factory level. I wouldn't need any pumps to push the liquids from below my factory. cause the buffer is the new natural head lift
glacial hemlock
lol... buffers. I hate them though, maybe because I am still not familiar with them.
blissful patrol
once you filled the buffer. you can go down below the green (new level) line. as much as you want. lifting the pipe upwards you wont requires any pumps
polar sleet
the pump can be removed, but that can break things if enough liquid leaves the buffer i believe
the buffer isn't even needed, it was there to test things really
the trick is the game threats this as one pipe section and thus uses the pumps headlift as long as enough liquid is reaching it's input to keep it on.
blissful patrol
while i was pumping liquids to below water source level. I noticed a lot of issues that I couldn't explain. the pumps were exceeding the headlifts and water wasn't running. even with proper pumps setup. then I removed the pumps the system worked. that's how I discovered that the game doesn't follow real liquid dynamics.
yeah you are probably right. buffers might not be even needed
polar sleet
the reason i made the top higher than the buffer is so the flow goes to where you want it as opposed to back down towards the bottom
blissful patrol
but helps keep things organized and steady flow
polar sleet
I wonder if they'll figure out a way to patch this without overcomplicating the pipes mechanics
the only thing i can think of is tracking multiple headlift's so only a certain amount can be pushed thru past certain heights
dusky quail
yea downward flow giving 100% natural headlift is super sketchy mechanic
needs some loss
polar sleet
i understand why the headlift mechanic works and how it simplifies things code wise... but yeah they need to track each headlift source separately and have the pipe network clamp thruput at certain heights accordingly
not sure how much that would complicate the code though
since there is the edge case of multiple branches at a given height
then again... it might be easier just to limit the output of sources if the pressure from pipes exceeds a certain threshold that can only occur when receiving liquid from above the sources headlift.
basically a pressure value that significantly exceeds what is needed for a 300 thru put
actually that would be more realistic
since the extra pressure should be inhibiting outputs from pumping into the pipes
though is suspect that means the pipes would need 2 pressure values, one for flow, one for "gravity".
glacial hemlock
lets say, 2 extractors at 0m and 30m respectively, and 2 receiving buffers at 10m and 40m respectively. It is supposed to be filling the lower with 240m3/min, then filling the top buffer at 120m3/min.
polar sleet
that's the idea... but the currently situation is the top gets 240 as well
it's needs some sort of secondary pressure value to track the fill elevation and use that to stop source's without enough headlift from pumping out.
i use the term pressure rather than elevation because the fill might be from a source that's higher than the inputs pulling from it, creating a strange pressure dynamic that might not limit the lower sources
latent slate
how many foundations is a water extractor
polar sleet
a bit smaller than 3x3... might be close to 2.5x2.5
latent slate
ty
fierce ruin
i wish you could snap extractors.... (water)
polar sleet
i don;t understand why we can't snap them to anything at all
fierce ruin
id even put foundations on the floor if it would let me
under the water
makes sense to me
glacial hemlock
It snaps to underwater ladder, provided you are submerged in the water
oblique hollow
Ah good old pipe mechanics.
Also as far as i know, pipes do have vertical losses in the form of friction, though im not sure if thats still true, and if, how strong it is
wind spade
depends if it's pumped or using water tanks
oblique hollow
I really cant say when those losses are present, if even
wind spade
water tanks don't even use pressure pumping to fill the pipes, they use the fact that liquid surfaces evens out through the system
oblique hollow
As far as i can tell they just function based on the "communicating vessels" mechanic
Which is exactly that: they even out
upbeat tide
One thing about buffers I have learned is they do need pumps, in certain uses.
Fluid train for example, I have this setup for every flyid car.
Source > Pump > IFB > pump > train > train > statiion > pump > IFB > pump > destination
Thats mostly to clmbat the fact that trains stop all pressure during load/unload
The other use for buffers for me is for emergency storage. For ecample, each of my turbofuel lines has 8 buffers storing excess turbo. Overkill? Yup, but its peace of mind. If I break something and dont notice for a while, the system will still work.
At least for a good while
lone yoke
Ok I need to ask in here, whats the better recipe for turbo motors? Im finding it hard to choose either off them (And at this point resources aint much off an issues)
fierce ruin
I use the stator/ai limiter one
to save on aluminum but ymmv, depends on what you're limited on
I had the ability to pretty easily make the stators and ai limiters at a specific location. If your location has ample rubber and aluminum by comparison, maybe the other's better for y ou
lone yoke
Im in the top left location
Getting all the Aluminium or most off the pure nodes is fairly easy, but im planning a big train resources system
Im wondering if Aluminium is needed somewhere else at a high cost?
fierce ruin
you'll probs use a lot for the highest tier belts
lone yoke
Ya im pretty much going to switch over to them when making the main base
fierce ruin
if you're to the point of turbo motors I imagine you're optimizing stuff pretty hard and going big on scale so those top end belts are important to have a lot of
lone yoke
"Optimizing"
lets just say i got to this stage on a factory that barely works 😆
I like to Optimize after unlocking msot stuff you see
glacial hemlock
true, focus on unlocking all the tech first before optimizing, unless you really know what you are doing...
because higher tech means easier to perform the optimizaiton.
fierce ruin
also on turbo motors, in the end because of alt recipes it comes down to swapping oil for caterium and coal. Copper's required regardless. The required steel can be made from oil or coal so it's kinda, which you got? Oil or coal + caterium?
coal + caterium sounds like a worse deal cuz it's 2 things but they're also 2 things scattered pretty generously around the map whereas oil is concentrated in a handful of pockets, and few of them are near bauxite, which like copper, is required regardless
glacial hemlock
I am working on this.
haughty sparrow
this is cool o-o
glacial hemlock
I left Silica before gathered all the ingredents.
fierce ruin
hypothetically you could cut silica, and thus quartz, out, by doing more bauxite and pure aluminum ingots
glacial hemlock
I will do anything to save bauxite though.
fierce ruin
fair
also if you're gonna do the silica route, it becomes more convenient to consider that quartz crystal alt recipe for radio control units that uses supercomputers and quartz crystal instead of computers and crystal oscillators, which can swing the resource balance around too
if you go deep on quartz you could cut out caterium
assuming you go with oil vs. coal + caterium
ebon oxide
how do you calculate how many cupons you have made?
summer field
Take the coupons you have, count how many you've spent.
glacial hemlock
@ebon oxide the other way is look at the sink. As the price increases every 3 coupons, you can guess it by comparing the point value to the coupon formula which is on the wiki
dull bolt
Easiest it not to spend any coupons... then you know exactly how many coupons you've made.
wind spade
don't make any coupons and you know you have 0 🤔
ebon oxide
@glacial hemlock in my inventory i have 310 cupons and i have already spent some so its pretty hard for me to work it out can you help
glacial hemlock
have a look at the awesome sink, see what is the point required to next coupon and what is the current percentage of the coupon
@ebon oxide
ebon oxide
glacial hemlock
82% is 8469926? hmm 10329178... hmm, let me calculate backwards
the next full coupon worth 10 369 000 points. You have produced about either 432, 433 or 434 coupons. @ebon oxide
ebon oxide
Thank you so much
do you have like a form that is easy to use cause i dont understand the one on the wiki
glacial hemlock
https://satisfactory.gamepedia.com/AWESOME_Sink I get the formula from here.
I estimate the value of full coupon based on the remaining percentage, then work backward the formula: minus 1000, divide 500, take the square root, then plus 1 then times 3.
ebon oxide
thanks
neat matrix
Just for my personal information. Why does it bother you, how much you produced? That information is like wanting to know how many screws you produce in the lifetime of your factory
swift ice
does anyone have an efficient 300 oil intake per minute setup for turbofuel generator factory? (all oil goes into fuel as efficiently as possible) could use calculations or a chart
or else imma need to do the math myself, its fine either way
ill probably find my own way regardless but having the "math" already done would help me setup the raw imputs from the closeby coal and sulfur before even getting the foundations going
dusty isle
Quick question, I'm looking for a fairly simple load balancer.
In the past, to balance a 9-in/9-out used a fair number of mergers and splitters (18 of each) but followed basic concepts applied when working with a 3-3 or 6-6
Does the overflow of the Smart Splitter make any load balancers easier/simpler?
glacial hemlock
@dusty isle wiki balancer, your answer is there.
swift ice
if you have fast enough belts to carry your "whole" imput and "whole" output you can reduce it to a single line with overflow @dusty isle
glacial hemlock
@swift ice here you go https://satisfactory.gamepedia.com/Tutorial:How_to_play#Turbofuel_Power
Smart splitters doesn't make a better balancer, but they do make a good belt compressor.
dusty isle
@glacial hemlock
https://satisfactory.gamepedia.com/Balancer
This still uses standard splitters. Do Smart Splitters make it any easier?
dusty isle
Oh well. Sadly balancing anything above 9 inputs gets hellishly complicated...
I have managed to build a 27-27 but took forever and is entirely unnecessary...
glacial hemlock
27 : 27 balancer sounds like a disaster
dusky quail
it's kinda needed when ur running multiple belts of the same stuff
but other than that just run manifolds
dim thicket
If you max out every belt, then every belt is already balanced 
glacial hemlock
belts are consider balanced if you are certain that each of them is carrying the same item rate. In that case it is pointless to create belt balancer.
dim thicket
All jokes aside, keeping it simple is usually the best idea. If you know what each belt is carrying, then you can just use that.
modern turtle
just overflowing usualy balances out after some time if you did your output->input math right
dusky quail
If you know what each belt is carrying, then you can just use that.
I have a main bus spreadsheet just to record what's being used where and how much I have left on each belt
but balancers are useful if you don't want to do that
dim thicket
I personally use a storage on the output of every item. It allows you to see if the item is being used faster than it is being made
dusty isle
I didn't create it because I needed it... I did it to see if it would work
worthy wasp
Hello guys, a few videos back Kibitz show a diagram to triple the oil production and said he uploded it on Twitter. Unfortunately I didn't find it, is there anyone kind enough to share me this diagram?
wind spade
it's kinda needed when ur running multiple belts of the same stuff
@dusky quail it's not. You just use whatever is on the belt
dusky quail
@wind spade that's assuming you know exactly the throughput on the belt, which not everybody cares about exact numbers
wind spade
if you don't care about exact numbers, you don't care about balancing as well
dusky quail
at this point I'm not sure what you're arguing
if you're running 10 belts of the same item, you might not want to bother remembering which belt has what - just use a balancer after a production step
it's not how I would do things, but it is a "meta" way of doing things
wind spade
isn't meta the "best" way of doing things?
dusky quail
in this game there are many "best" ways of doing things, if there's only 1 way this channel would be a guide and not a discussion
sand garnet
its a discussion of why something is the best way
wind spade
yes there's multiple, but not a single one of them involves balancers 😉
dusky quail
we can agree to disagree here
sand garnet
manifold is pretty much superior for everything
dusky quail
its a discussion of why something is the best way
@sand garnet why something "might be" the best way
sand garnet
some stuff is objectively true
whether you like it or not
being able to send 10 items is always better than being able to send 1 item
dusky quail
manifold is pretty much superior for everything
Different use cases, balancers involve balancing throughput between multiple belts of the same item. Manifolds are production design based on overflow.
sand garnet
manifolds 'balance' stuff over time if you feed it enough items
wind spade
I've done a lot of research on this game's meta and I'm presenting my results, including reasoning behind them
empty hemlock
balancers are largely irrelevant in satis compared to factorio as input is constant and does not vary like factorio does
wind spade
^^^^ this so much
sand garnet
nodes dont run out, you dont have to connect new nodes, the only time it will change is when you connect another nodes to the setup or when you upgrade existing setups
dusky quail
okay say you have 4 lines of 780 screws running, you tap 400/500/350/200 from each respectively
I would run a balancer after that
dusky quail
that's exactly my point
dusky quail
why would you do that
so you can be sure you're maxing out your input
sand garnet
you can just make a multilayered manifold with that
and insert lines wherever you need to with mergers
dusky quail
and insert lines wherever you need to with mergers
I mean that itself is like a mini-balancer
wind spade
not really
sand garnet
lol
dusky quail
I feel like we're just picking at straws here
both ways work, no throughput is being sacrificed
wind spade
okay say you have 4 lines of 780 screws running, you tap 400/500/350/200 from each respectively
@dusky quail also... doesn't make sense. If you tap concrete numbers, then you know what's remaining on the belt. Do you know how much is remaining on the belt after you balance it? it's way worse to calculate
sand garnet
here's how I'd solve it:
merge the 400 + 350
merge the 500 + 200
make 2 manifolds, 1 for each line
dont have to think or care about perfect ratios that way, lines will balance themselves out over time
torpid robin
Here’s a question for ya . If you say have 10 lines of 600 how would you go about compressing it down to full 780 lines . Or you wouldn’t . You just send the 600 lines where needed
sand garnet
same.
dusky quail
and say if you have 10 lines of 10 left?
wind spade
merge into one of 100
torpid robin
Cool . Was kinda thinking that .
wind spade
or not, depening on what do I use it for
dusky quail
exactly, that's a balancer!
sand garnet
thats not a balancer.
wind spade
@dusky quail merging is not a balancer
dusky quail
ok I think that's the root of our arguing here
sand garnet
cleaning up a mess of belts isnt balancing
dusky quail
my definition of a balancer is to balance out throughput, regardless of how many belts are carrying it
wind spade
balancer takes X belt and outputs Y belts, at least Y is greater than 1, takes same amount of items from each X and outputs same amount of items to Y
with any amounts of items on X
if I do this
M--M--M--M--M--M--M--M--M--M--
| | | | | | | | | |
it doesn't take equally from all input belts therefore it's not a balancer (not to mention that there's just one output belt)
sand garnet
400/500/350/200
balancing, with your example, would be : I have these 4 belts but I want to divide them into 4 equal belts. how do I do that.
dusky quail
balancing, with your example, would be : I have these 4 belts but I want to divide them into 4 equal belts. how do I do that.
that's what I mean here, my definition of balancer would be to re-balance them into not 4 equal belts
sand garnet
that would be.. unbalanced.
wind spade
that's like antibalancer lol
dusky quail
no, that is just re-balancing into different throughputs
aka a balancer, not equal balancer, but still balancer
sand garnet
if a scale is balanced, it has equal amounts of weight on both sides of the scale
wind spade
60/40 is not balance, 50/50 is
dusky quail
alright, I guess my definition of balancer is wrong here then, what's the term for it then?
sand garnet
if I add more weight on 1 side of the scale, it becomes unbalanced
wind spade
what are you trying to achieve anyway?
you have different speed of belts and you want to make them... different different speeds?
dusky quail
what do you call merging 400/500/350/200 into 780/670, just merging?
wind spade
yup
dusky quail
fair enough
old sequoia
Hey math channel, I'm trying to figure out how to derive the best usage of a node
For example, if I have a pure iron node at 120 ore/second, what's the math to figure out the most efficient production of rotors using just that node? I tried doing systems of equations, but I didn't have enough knowns, and I'm not sure if that's the best way to work with production rations
dusky quail
@old sequoia if you know exactly what you want from that node (i.e. top down production), you can just break down the components
assembler*
assuming default recipes
wispy patrol
And the math depends on alternative recipes you have available...
old sequoia
right, but I'm looking for the opposite. Given that I have 120 iron per minute, what's the most efficient splitting of that iron to create resources?
I figured it out by throwing in multipliers to the recipes until I got one a result of just over 120, but I was trying to figure out if there are any equations that would help me derive the result directly
dusky quail
so your question is, how do I divide my resources efficiently to produce components?
if I'm reading your question right, it really depends on what you're trying to make
I do stuff on excel to see how I want to divide my resources
old sequoia
Right, so what I'm looking for is the equations, or perhaps systems of equations, to solve that problem in the generic sense
torpid robin
I have a funny feeling I had seen some dude on reddit make a spread sheet could could work bottom up . So you would put in your resource and it would tell you how much of something it could make . I’m not 100 % sure . You would have to go searching
verbal cloud
if you overclock the coal generator does it require more water too?
empty hemlock
only if you also use the power. overclocking powergenerators only increases their maximum possible load, they still automatically scale for the consumption
verbal cloud
its for my excel sheet not actually to overclock it
verbal cloud
same as the coal then
cosmic arrow
Hi
verbal cloud
i must have read it as i already implemented it was just checking
cosmic arrow
U guys ok?
empty hemlock
yes, ratio and efficency doesn't change, only the maximum it can linearly scale up to by itself
queen island
do some one here have an estimated time for when biomass burners run out of fuel?
fierce ruin
yeah
queen island
I want to see how long i can go afk with production still going
fierce ruin
which fuel u using?
queen island
biomass from grass
queen island
yeah
fierce ruin
it will be about 20mins at full load
queen island
daaaaamn
upbeat tide
Your gonna want to turn that biomass into soild biofuel tho
fierce ruin
or put 2 gens down
queen island
yeah
fierce ruin
fill both and get 40mins
queen island
i just started a new world and havent got so far with biofuel and stuff
fierce ruin
ok
queen island
i could send a pod right now and wait
wispy patrol
Biomass Burner burn 4 solid biofuel, 19 wood per minute or 120 leaves per minute - assuming a 100% Power consumption
fierce ruin
they are using biomass
queen island
okey, i got 4 burners now and all of them got 100 biofuel, how long would that last? and do they really take more time to burn if you have more gens?
fierce ruin
biofuel or biomass?
queen island
fuel
queen island
about 50 MW
queen island
yeah
fierce ruin
which
queen island
100
queen island
30 min per gen or total?
fierce ruin
total
glacial hemlock
If you want to rush for coal power, at least 12 biomass burners are recommended
shrewd yacht
that is not a lot of power before coal
round zinc
if you're "rushing" that implies you aren't building huge infrastructure first
frosty shadow
I used algebra today to figure out over/under clocking for my factory 😳
sacred blade
I already have casted screws and modular frame recipe that uses screws as my alternatives. Do I want Bolted Iron Plates, Cooper Alloy, or Caterium wire?
round zinc
Caterium Wire is pretty terrible unless you're early enough that you have literally no other use for it. You'll never use it later.
Copper Alloy Ingot isn't quite as efficient as Pure Copper Ingot, but the production speed is great - 100 ingots/min out of one foundry? Yes plz.
Bolted Iron Plate is basically the same recipe, costs a few extra screws, but runs at triple speed.
personally I get a lot of mileage of copper alloy ingots - you need to do some extra work to funnel over the iron ore, but you can get a really crazy amount of copper ingots.
fierce ruin
the answer is always get the best thing now and the others later. There's always more hdds.
sacred blade
And so as I set up infustructure pre coal, the best thing available is probably the copper alloy?
fierce ruin
pre coal I'd go bolted plate for sure
round zinc
yeah, the things you need tons of copper for are mostly electronics later.
fierce ruin
copper alloy can be good but pre coal what're you using a buncha copper for? You're not making circuitboards or alclad sheets
plus precoal I'm not putting anything in a foundry if I ain't gotta (looking at you, steel)
dusky quail
personally I wouldn't take Bolted Iron Plate because it's less resource efficient and consumes a direct line of Mk 3 belt
all it does is saves you from building more assemblers, which my style of building is space efficient so I don't really need that
round zinc
Swampy Pete brings up a good point, though. "just add two more assemblers" is just fine for someone with a working power setup, and terrible advice if you're still feeding wood to a biomass burner.
dusky quail
thing is, you save two assemblers but add 3-4 constructors
guess it saves you 10-20MW for what it's worth
sacred blade
not feeding wood, I just spent an hour and a half building a soon to be useless solid biofuel converter
I mean, I already have casted screws, so i think bolted frames are worth it
Because then its just two constructors feeding in
dusky quail
I would keep the biofuel converter though
great for trashing leaves/wood and useful for your vehicles + chainsaw
sacred blade
thanks
round zinc
I'd keep an assembler for it but I dunno I'd want a big factory for it.
it's useful to keep your chainsaw fueled, yeah
glacial hemlock
Rushing means building at least 2 sets of rotor and rip setup to get coal power quickly ready.
Also 2 sets of screw, plate and rods each, and that quickly total up to 300MW ++
That will also means at least 7 iron miners
wise mango
If you're actually trying to rush to coal power and have a friend it's better to manually craft the screws, wire, and cable and just have copper ingot and iron rod production. That can be done off of only 1 additional biomass generator
It takes ~10m for one person to craft the ~1,200 screws needed to get the smart plating, 5m with a friend
And you only get the Part Assembly milestone, manually, before going up to the next space elevator tier
(to make the assemblers for smart plate, that you manually feed)
round zinc
yeah, at low levels, you can definitely do some manual crafting.
it's not a great habit to get into, though...
realistically, you can take two iron miners and use that to make plates, screws, and rods. It's not efficient but if you're new, it's not like you know where the coal is anyway
so let it run, go out and adventure, come back to a container full of screws
torpid robin
i like to have my partners pc running next to me hand crafting while im setting stuff up lol
queen island
is there some speical places where nuts grow?
fierce ruin
on the nut bushes
glacial hemlock
@wise mango you have to consider the total RIP and rotor required to craft 8 coal generators, 8 miners and 3 water extractors including the pipes, junctions, belts and splitters, then the resources needed to craft the temporary biomass generators and the cable and power poles to bring the power home.
I would doubt the full manual crafting will be faster than the automatic crafting in that case
indigo vigil
Always feels weird to me how people think hand-crafting is efficient. Yeah, sure you can build any singular item faster than the machines, but the point of the game is to make tens or hundreds of thousands of items off of dozens or hundreds of assembly lines. An pioneer might be able to replace a single early-game assembly line, but even early-game will have, like, a dozen lines. And once you get to late-game stuff (ignoring that the pioneer can't process liquid products), it can take several minutes just to put together a single item.
You gotta get that stuff automated, or else you're just suffering as you wait for your spacebar to hate you for making it craft things endlessly.
oblique hollow
After confirming that Buffers don't cancel Headlift, i can now confirm that they even propagate it. The small buffer after the pump is full, so is the first large one, and the one above is being filled. Once again, Buffers are just large pipes
glacial hemlock
@oblique hollow the page regarding the pipes and pumps is it maintained by you?
seems image not updated yet
oblique hollow
which page?
glacial hemlock
i see.
oblique hollow
I just gave him permission to use my graph
glacial hemlock
I guess it will be better to simply attach your updated infograph directly to wiki?
We would like to provide latest information to all wiki user, and if you are fine with sharing your works.
oblique hollow
yea but i should add this info to the graph too
also, of course! Theres a reason i do this stuff
So people dont suffer under it
glacial hemlock
once ready, you can post it here and I will upload to wiki or if you know how to edit the wiki directly...
the infograph should appear in both pipeline and pipeline pump pages.
oblique hollow
alright
Ok so i got a little update on top of this: The second buffer finally filled..... but not completely
after doing the math, the fluid is at about 23 m
which is EXACTLY what i measured to be the dropoff limit for pumps
glacial hemlock
I see, so the maximum limit of a pipeline pump is not 22 meters, but is 23 meters
oblique hollow
yes
glacial hemlock
have you considered the center of the pipe is already 1 meter above the foundation?
oblique hollow
the absolute max
that doesnt matter
since a small buffer applies 8 m when full
and they are 8 m tall
glacial hemlock
it does, because the fluid buffer is standing on the floor level, but the pipes (and attached pumps) is elevated 1 meter above the floor
glacial hemlock
hmm.
if I rotate the pump to vertical orientation, will it shows the same result?
oblique hollow
buffer height = max buffer reverse pressure in m
it should be less when vertical
but i guess i need to build a test setup for that
since pump placement is indeed important on vertical lines
but not on horizontal ones it seems
glacial hemlock
yeah, we always persuade people to build vertical pumps, not in the horizontal direction
oblique hollow
that one pump at the front managed to fill all buffers (well nearly all, the last one on top is like 91% full)
glacial hemlock
fluid buffers only propagate head lift proportional to the amount of fluid height filled. In other words, they behave just like any normal pipelines.
oblique hollow
yep
also, funny enough, the pump ignores the small buffer after it filled the large one
since accoring to our math, 8 + 24 would be 32
but its not
The Small buffer's reverse pressure is completely nullified because of the large one
i would need to test mutliple serial buffers......
glacial hemlock
how about this, making a line graph on top of the section drawing to visualize the head lift
oblique hollow
i only have part 1 and part 2, though after this i will make a small update to both of them
Will put them here after im done
shouldnt take too long
glacial hemlock
image attached in fluid buffer page, you can click edit source if you wish to change its image caption.
oblique hollow
small edit made
hope it is clear
ill read through the Headlift explaination text and see if i can simplify it, since i only edited the image caption rn
glacial hemlock
yeah, pipeline, pipeline pumps, water extractors ... all these pages need a review
upbeat tide
Speaking of pipelines, I have found that in some instances I need to add pumps between junctions in order for the pressure to work properly.
For example, 10 recycled plastic refineries will use 300m3 fuel.
I chose to build as a manifold. Refineries 9 and 10 never recieved enough fuel despite 300m3 flowing at the beginning of the manifold. After I installed a pump between each junction, the flow rate issues at the back of the manifold solved themselves.
But another oddity, smaller manifolds like lets say 5 refineries dont need that pump workaround at all.
oblique hollow
i think that has to do with the fact that pipes are unidirectional: the fluid swashes around in them
upbeat tide
This was all in my adventures to build a 1200m3 oil > 1800 plastic/rubber factory
oblique hollow
Pipeline Pumps act as one-way gates, preventing backflow
upbeat tide
Yea I know but even a pump before the 10 way manifold never fixed it
oblique hollow
thats cause the machines have internal buffers
they take fluid in as fast as possible
once they are full, they wont accept more
upbeat tide
Yup understand that
oblique hollow
the pumps always allow a bit of the fluid to go to the next junction without the possibility of flowing back
thats the reason behind it, i think
upbeat tide
Yea I think so. I discovered it after troubleshooting other issues and finding 2/10 machines were operating at 80% ish. Looks at internal tank, next to nothin, pipe attached, below needed flow rate and bone dry.
Moved to the machine before it, full, pipe half full
So thats when I realized somethin was a miss
English only server
kindred musk
ask a question out of the question but the turbo fuel (red) is in the game???
upbeat tide
Hard drives
kindred musk
for fuel generators go with the turbo fuel right ?? tell me no ahahhah
English only server
@upbeat tide ahaahah sorry
upbeat tide
Fuel generator go with turbo fuel yes
kindred musk
because I don't know why since the season 3 came out it went with the turbo fuel and then with the next update after a week the fuel generators went only with the residual fuell
upbeat tide
Do you have compacted coal yet?
kindred musk
now I'm not playing anymore because the pc is a bit bad and I have to pipe it
upbeat tide
Compacted coal is required first
kindred musk
Do you have compacted coal yet?
@upbeat tide never crafted
glacial hemlock
Hard drive
oblique hollow
ok something isnt right. i tested a pump connected to a buffer thats sitting on a 24 m tall tower and..... it got filled with no problems
ok found the solution: pumps will fill any buffer thats within 22 meter height, even if the top of the buffer shoots way beyond 22 meters
if you place the buffer at exactly 22, the pump dies after reaching a headlift of 23.35 m
so yes, 23 seems to be the absolute limit
yea 23 it is
verbal cloud
anyone got a full recipe/alt recipe list?
upbeat tide
glacial hemlock
wiki alternate recipes
https://satisfactory.gamepedia.com/Railway just wrote some thought about the throughput of a railway.
oblique hollow
on the topic of wiki, im done with most edits now. only thing missing are the individual extractors and then refinery
glacial hemlock
and pipelines.
oblique hollow
ah, yes
wise mango
@glacial hemlock during the creation of the smart plating you have 25 game minutes to get automated rotor production going and augment iron production for conveyers etc...
fierce ruin
I hope trains get collision and we get signals and can go full ottd with trainspergin
marble mist
well if there's collisions those will probably be some pretty massive wrecks we'll see
oblique hollow
currently trying to find pipe circuits using buffers and junctions and pumps. these 2 are currently what i came up with
hexed jungle
I remember someone here did the math awhile ago (before Update 3) on fuel generators vs coal, and it turned out the power used to make the fuel almost completely negated any extra power generated from fuel generators. Anyone know if this is still true?
rancid lark
using a diluted fuel chain to turbo fuel you can get about 8:1 power gen to power req ratio
upbeat tide
For regular fuel yea kinda true as its not efficient
The diluted fuel system though is insane though
This is the basic fuel recipe
It can power 13.33 fuel gens which is just shy of 2GW power. Without pumps or any thing else, your gonna use appx 150MW power + the oil extractor, presuming a 250% OC oil extractor on a normal node (174 MW), a pure node at 140% ish (70MW ish), or two impure nodes at 250% (174MW x2)
And thats with the diluted fuel system
fresh elm
that's the reason I have a system that just fills bins back at base with empty containers to add to these systems as you make them 🙂
as this game requires all the containers
upbeat tide
And just loop the canisters for this application too. Build a single indy storage, stash the canisters and loop through
fresh elm
only exception is if you want to bleed packaged fuel for points
and then you have to be careful because you can't overfill the containers because if there's no place for an empty to go, it won't exit
upbeat tide
True, but id do that in a seperate system thats isolated from power production
fresh elm
it depends, if you just chuck it all to overflow it can keep your systems processing and you don't have power spikes caused by power production
although tbh it prob won't ever spike that much, it hsould be a slow ramp
upbeat tide
True. Anyway Im headed to sleep, have fun fellas
left oak
@fresh salmon mad isn’t it?! I’m currently working on converting my current regular fuel power system to turbo fuel via the diluted packaged route just now. Starting small... only 83.33 generators required 😂🤦🏼♂️
fresh salmon
Not only does it produce quadruple the petrol, but it requires a lot more logistics for the container loop, which imo is just a bonus.
hexed jungle
ok, fantastic, thanks for the info guys
round zinc
I put together a heavy oil > turbofuel setup (don't have the other recipe...) for about 10GW of capacity from 300m3 oil and about 400 sulfur and coal
left oak
@round zinc nice. To contain the immediate spamming of generators im using my mk2 miners on normal nodes for the compacted coal so limited to 300 compacted. Otherwise using all the spare heavy oil residue I have it would be in excess of 130 generators... I’ll leave that for turbo power phase 2!
round zinc
Sad thing is, sometimes my consumption is so low -all- the generators are off... geothermal carries the whole load
fresh salmon
Geothermal too op
glacial hemlock
underpowered, I would say
upbeat tide
Geothermal was added before you could exploit oil the waynwe can now, and when nuclear was harder.
Yea I agree geo has not moved with the times well.
wind spade
it's free power. I think it's fine as it is
it's enough to power your separate network of pumps
upbeat tide
True
sand garnet
3.6 or 3.8GW for free basically, its great
upbeat tide
Yup, and if you use it for pumps only, thats 900 to 950 you can support
oblique hollow
what kind of pumps? do you mean Extractors or...?
upbeat tide
I meant just pumps, but I can understand extractors too
glacial hemlock
0 pumps for my 50 NPP setup
oblique hollow
alright so im nearly done with this page. Tried to optimize a few existing designs (like the common pipe balancer and overflow).
I hope the graph for the Variable Overflow Junction makes sense.
If anyone has more build ideas like these, im open for that.
All these should work properly
Im not sure whether this is the right channel tbh since this isnt as much math and more...... build theory
But i did run tests and calculations on all 4
upbeat tide
Its meta tho
oblique hollow
hm ok
upbeat tide
Also maybe draw somethin up for efficient manifolds? Or pipe looping like the 3:8 water coal gen system?
oblique hollow
yea i guess basic setups could work for the bottom 2
hmm manifold junctions....
well i mean it is pretty much just : Junction-Pump-Junction... etc. for an efficient manifold
also i recently noticed: while unpowered pumps do in fact act as one-way valves, they do so at the cost of killing any previous Head Lift. So it's better to just power them in every case
glacial hemlock
unpowered pumps kills head lifts? that is worth noting them down.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5PqXlY3CYY how about this? is this mechanism should be included in the infograph?
different fluid sources with different head lifts, when combined, will share the highest head lift among them.
fierce ruin
that whole thing is a really cool demonstration of a flaw in the game's handling of fluids but I question how useful such a contraption is in the name of not having to use pumps
oblique hollow
i currently would rather not use that as im unsure about its permanence. for all i know, it could be removed with the next update
gravitational pressure seems messed up, and the frictional losses for pressure also seem to be missing
secondly, this is very unpractical. it only works naturally with water. as soon as you use fuel or oil or whatever, to pull this off, you would need to pump it up first, only to have it run back down.
glacial hemlock
yeah, this is an exploit
dusky quail
I mean they just introduced fluids so gotta give them some time
fierce ruin
I doubt One Weird Trick to get free headlift is high on the priority list to fix
(Archimedes hates this!)
upbeat tide
Its also a situational trick too. Not alot of places you can do that without needing a tower.
oblique hollow
It is very limited
fierce ruin
At the point you need something like this, you should be fine with power and just use the pumps, packaging or trains.
oblique hollow
or just dont build tower refineries where you need to pump fluids 200 m up
swift ice
@fierce ruin I think newton would hate it before Archimedes 😄
I found that building liquid stuff on near-sea level is best and easiest to manage without wasting energy for pumps
oblique hollow
Physicists hate him! Watch how this developer breaks all laws and moves liquids without effort!
swift ice
even if Im done with my oil gen setup and get over 100gw myself I would still see the 4 energy pumps a waste 😅
oblique hollow
eh i dont care about those 4 MW. if you manage your pipes you can avoid a lot or at least reduce the number of pumps needed
but if you want to make some efficient adjustments, I found that pumps can help a whole lot because of their one-way ability
the downside is that you can only effectively use that trait by powering them, but im willing to make that sacrifice
fierce ruin
archimedes beat newton to hydraulic displacement by about 2 millenia
plucky bridge
It's actually not all that situational. Imagine you want to have a large number of pipes go up, then instead of pumping all, you can pump one up all the way into a buffer and connect the buffer with the others
round zinc
fluid train~
plucky bridge
Inside your base?
round zinc
well, if you're talking significant elevation changes such that you'd need a lot of pumps
a train will deliver your fluids with no regard to elevation change, so... it's a lousy solution if you only need 1-2 pumps for one line, but a great solution if you need to move a LOT of liquid a long way vertically
of course travel time also becomes an issue, but you can make longer trains to help deal with that
glacial hemlock
spiral train roller coaster that goes up and down that serves as a big pump?
warm saffron
Does anybody know a good Guide for Oil processing? Because im struggling with all the sideproduct and try to find the best balance for plastic, fuel and rubber production
glacial hemlock
do you have all the 4 alternates ready?
round zinc
the key to keep in mind is this - oil processing can lock up TWO ways. If the main product backs up, it stops and you get no more byproduct either. If the byproduct backs up, it stops and you get no more main product either.
but yeah, the specifics depend a TON on which alternate recipes you have unlocked.
glacial hemlock
if you are just unlocked tier 5: https://satisfactory.gamepedia.com/Tutorial:How_to_play#Oil_Processing
if you already went through hard drive hunting and have the alternates: https://satisfactory.gamepedia.com/Tutorial:How_to_play#Oil_Processing_2
round zinc
that's a pretty good guide
the best advice I have is to have both sides set up so that excess will go into the awesome sink - if it can't back up it can't freeze your production. That means, unfortunately, you need to be careful re: fuel production
oblique hollow
Tbh you could just build byproduct processing line and slap an overflow smart splitter inbetween for if it backs up
That way you dont waste as much resources and can build up resin plastic / rubber
glacial hemlock
I have similar setup for plastic and rubber, each use 84 refineries. The plastic will need a Sink, but the rubber setup is sinkless.
oblique hollow
For my fuel gens i process the resin and if the fuel backs i have an overflow pipe that sends it to packaging
round zinc
yeah, if you're not generating power it's a lot easier to balance everything. But if you ARE, the fuel consumption will vary a lot depending on your actual use
glacial hemlock
an efficient setup will need no sink though (except fuel / tb as final product), so I guess there is still some flaws in my design
don't mix power, plastic and rubber in the same pipeline, you should tap from 3 different nodes imo
round zinc
that's best if you can manage it
oblique hollow
Thats why i decided to expand on the normal pipe overflow. Will release my 3 part Pipeline Infographs today, as a Steam Release celebration, sort of.
glacial hemlock
12 hours to go
oblique hollow
Easy
round zinc
I built a turbofuel plant over the weekend, flows out to a fabric plant and a sink for excess
oblique hollow
Noon of the Last Day - 12 Hours remain-
round zinc
but I didn't have the regular fuel > turbofuel recipe so I just went heavy for about 10GW of power. OTOH, my consumption is like 3..
oblique hollow
Funny enough yesterday when i tried to build a flow booster i instead made a Flow Rate Throttle
Whatever the heck that is useful for
glacial hemlock
flow booster? that's interesting. I thought there is a conservation of fluid flow.
means for any point in a pipe network, the total fluid input must be equal to the total fluid output.
oblique hollow
There is, but you could convert 100 to 150 if you somehow charge and store it, but the result is a discontinuous flow
warm saffron
ok maybe i should go for harddrive hunting first
oblique hollow
You cant really boost it of course, but it is more like condensing it
Still working on that
glacial hemlock
@warm saffron get Heavy Oil Residue, Diluted Packaged Fuel, Recycled Plastic and Recycled Rubber. These 4.
oblique hollow
But its probably not possible
Though funny enough you can Throttle flow. Had 100 turn into 70
glacial hemlock
using the head lift limit, right?