sorted
#math-and-meta
lone yoke
fresh current
For my setup, I have 3 extractors pushing water to 8 coal gens, but I have the extractors pumping from the middle of the pipe so I don't go over the throughput limit. I haven't built enough stuff to push all 8 generators to max speed, but should be able to test soon.
untold crown
did the same ratio. 8 generators, waterpump at either end + middle
barren elm
Is it me or did they really make power painful now?
spring ridge
It’s definitely difficult at the coal stage due to the ratios
barren elm
Like biomass gens were buffed to 30mw, but now you realistically need 3 assemblers early game where previously you needed 2, if that
spring ridge
I like the complexities but I had a perfect system for coal
barren elm
My tier 1 factory ended up eating about 120mw total, double the previous patch
I think I spent 80% of my time harvesting biomass
Yeah coal is super rough too, I do think it needed some complexity
But overall my experience with u3 so far has been dominated by power development
sand garnet
19h in and im at steel
fierce ruin
The water requirement for the coal has rendered my whole power grid empty for certain. It's a struggle to have to get this new requirement retrofitted for sure.
barren elm
Yeah it used to take me about 2 hours to get mk3 belts running previously, took me 8 this time
Desert biome did make it harder I suppose, mostly since I don't know the good spots
It seems like it's super well suited for trains, though given how late you get trains...
tulip tinsel
Seems like they should have just given us belt fed biomass burners while they were at it. Would be a significant improvement.
pure terrace
is there an awsome sink chart of item worth?
pure terrace
ahh k ty
stark smelt
Hey guys. Is Bolted iron plates is new meta?
barren elm
I don't think so
Uses 0.66 fewer iron plates per RIP, but 4.66 more screws. So you save 1 iron on plates, but spend just over 1 iron on screws
250 screws per min does fit nicely in with the alt screw recipe though
However, you do effectively save some power
wind spade
I haven't got a chance to look at alternate recipes yet, when I'll do, expect some reddit megathread 😄
fallow lily
Analyzing which products and alternative recipes produce the most points/minute will be interesting.
fallow lily
It'll give me something to optimize for besides 100% efficiency, which should be nice.
wind spade
I'll definitely do some post if I get any new info
stark smelt
ah damn. Was so thrilled about alternate screws/bolted iron plates synergy i completely forgot about belt throughput efficency
barren elm
The only "mandatory" alt recipe I've found so far is...
Alt screws, heh. It saves power.
50 also fits better than 60 with the things that require screws.
Seems like alt recipes overall do not save you resources anymore though
At least, I haven't found one yet
wind spade
yeah, devs said that in changelog
Alternative Recipes are not there to make your life easier. They are there to propose a trade-off. Generally, the idea is that an alternative recipe gives you one thing, such as a cleaner production line, but takes another, like requiring more complex ingredients.
Generally, with the changes we have made, we attempt to enforce this idea more. And we added some new recipes so that more trade-offs are possible, which might suit different types of players.
As an example, hard-core factory builders are more likely to look for the most resource-efficient option, so we added more complexity to those recipes since this also suits those players.
On the other hand, some recipes are a lot cleaner, but not as resource efficient. Those are aimed at the less experienced players, since their worries might align more with simply getting production running well.
Some alt recipes do save a lot of power however
Notably the alt reinforced iron plating recipe that shaves almost 30mw off the default
fallow lily
As long as that comes along with less efficiency or some other drawback, that's fine.
Less resource efficiency, that is.
barren elm
I am pretty excited to see yor take on alt recipes
fallow lily
Changing the type of resource you need is also good.
wind spade
yeah me too. after 80 or so hours of work, I may be able to provide that xD
barren elm
Jesus, that's a hell of a lot
One thing I'm really interested in but can't figure out from ingame testing is whether compacted coal reduces the water consumption of coal plants
stone orbit
oo thats exciting
wind spade
@barren elm that's one of the questions I asked devs
barren elm
Did you get a reply?
wind spade
or rather I asked for the math behind generators and water requirement
as it's not clear from Docs.json
barren elm
I know it increases "burn time per coal" but I can't really tell whether the water is "used" on a per coal burned basis, or is independent
wind spade
considering I asked like 20 minutes back, i expect the reply tomorrow at the best
from what I've seen, I'd say the second case is true, but can't tell you 100% answer before I get the answer from the devs
earnest orchid
It would make more sense having the water separate from the burn of the coal as its a constant flow rather then as you burn basis
barren elm
Depends what you mean by "make sense", because from a balance point of view it'd relegate compacted coal back into the realms of uselessness as far as I can tell, which doesn't make sense
earnest orchid
Doesn't compacted coal have a slower burn rate then normal coal. Cause if so then it still has a purpose
barren elm
Yeah just over double
earnest orchid
In that case it's still usable. I have only brefiely played with the pipes so far and still working things out. I know how to set them up but playing with flow rates is another ball game
wind spade
just to correct you, fuel doesn't have burn rate, but energy value. Compacted coal has higher energy value (thus having longer burn rates)
but theoretically you are also correct
barren elm
I mean, you still have to pay an energy cost (and we are concerned about that because compacted coal only exists to provide energy) to produce it
So if water consumption is unchanged, you're paying energy to produce compacted coal, thus reducing your coal plant's efficiency, and complicating your build, all to save a bit of coal which is already incredibly common
earnest orchid
What is the comsumption of a water pump, extra pump or 2 on the line and a miner? It would be interesting to see how many generators you are going to need to keep up with that demand. I know the coal genes are now 75mw. But is that enough to have a basic setup with headroom
wind spade
if they haven't changed compacted coal + coal energy values
I need to redo the table for fuel efficiencies
may be interesting to see how they changed it
earnest orchid
Once I get setting up coal in this save I'm going to be playing around and see what values I need for basic setup before actually powering a factory
barren elm
20mw for water pump
+4 to move the water uphill (almost certainly required without some smart planning)
earnest orchid
I'm building directly on the water so should reduce the power needs a bit
barren elm
1 pump feeds 2.67 coal generators
earnest orchid
The maths for all of this makes the game completely different. Having to rework everything is a new challenge
barren elm
Yeah coal is no longer effortless infinite power
I do think that the energy costs of structures need looking over though, power in general is a real headache now
earnest orchid
It was nice cause everyone raced for it
But this change means its not worth rushing as fast and more planning is involved setting up
barren elm
Oh it still is
I used to hit tier 3 with 1, maybe 2 assemblers before. Now you really cannot go below 3
wind spade
I think power was super easy earlier, so I kinda support this change
barren elm
That's a lot of biomass power, so much so that I probably spent half of tier 2 farming biomass
I like the complexity but I feel like it dominates gameplay too much now
earnest orchid
Plus the new space elevator requirements mean you have to setup a proper factory from the start which in itself makes the playtime longer and more plan in is needed instead of just diving in
barren elm
Also I went into this patch blind, jeez the shock I had when I saw my coal plant had a fluid input
earnest orchid
I like the challenge makes you think. Some people are not going to like it but for me 8 am glad. I'm almost tempted to start again and start building up a factory
fiery shard
I think making the burner phase longer somewhat discourages automation
barren elm
Well handcrafting is incredibly slow now so you kinda have no choice
wind spade
which is also a good choice
earnest orchid
Yep very slow. They increased all the times for everything. I'm regretting not having a factory setup yet
barren elm
True but I think other parts of the game need looking over to support this change to ensure gameplay is fluid
fiery shard
Slowing the hand craft is good, but it's still easier to lean on the space bar than it is to run around picking up sticks
barren elm
Notably assembler power consumption, that's the real kick in the early game teeth
earnest orchid
What's it at now?
barren elm
15mw currently
earnest orchid
Wasn't it like 5 or 10 before?
pastel knoll
They buffed the biofuel outputs
barren elm
Probably still 15 before, can't remember, but it's really not comparable because coal threw gigawatts of power at you after an hour of gameplay
pastel knoll
To make up for requiring fluid for coal burners
barren elm
Well, let me put it this way
My update 2 starter factory used 60mw. My update 3 starter factory uses 150. So the +5mw on biomass burners didn't really make much of a difference.
I know that's a bit arbitrary, but I do think you need a lot more structures to get through early game now, so the buff isn't really noticeable
cedar mica
Are pipes limited to 300m3 or is that a tooltip error?
fiery shard
bio fuel is now 450J instead of 300
cedar mica
Pump at 250% is 300
fiery shard
that's way more important to burner phase tedium than the wattage per buner
barren elm
There is just no reason whatsoever to overclock a pump, surely
cedar mica
Most of the water in the new starting area, is fake water, so cant put more then a few pumps
wind spade
"fake water" lol
fiery shard
I built a pump on land
wind spade
there's just a depth requirement for pump
fiery shard
don't tell devs
cedar mica
When you walk through the water and the pump wont go on it, tis fake
Even the oil coast water, in the north, dont work
wind spade
I beleive it's 50 ingame units (not sure if that's cm or whatever)
fiery shard
I built my pumps in very shallow water in the oasis
wind spade
most likely the unit that is displayed in the coords overlay
cedar mica
If you swim, water is proper, from what I can tell
fiery shard
This was not swimmable water
wind spade
I guess there may be similar depth requirement for swimming
fiery shard
nowhere close
wind spade
which I don't know
cedar mica
It might be a bug, where not everything is marked proper as deep enough
barren elm
You're overthinking it
fiery shard
biomass also got a 50% bump
barren elm
There's a box on the underside of the pump, that box needs to fit in the water
fiery shard
in energy
barren elm
That's all there is to it
cedar mica
When water as far as you can see, cant be used to pump water, not all water is real water
I'm talking the oil coast to the north
Havent tried the east sea yet
barren elm
East sea is perfect for a coal array
There's also 4 coal nodes underground there too but the update has made them unreachable
cedar mica
Or there is a cave, we havent found
barren elm
Nah they are definitely inside the terrain
You can see the actual 3d location of the node when you use the scanner
broken brook
Yo
pure forum
anyone know the new consumption rate for coal generators? or if it has been changed at all
untold crown
for coal burntime is 4 seconds
pure forum
cheers b
untold crown
good ratio is 120 coal + 3 water pumps ;)
pure forum
so because of 2 pure nodes and mk1 miners, 6 water pump?s
untold crown
yeah
so your build is 2 miners, 16 generators and 6 pumps
make sure not to overload the pipes though. they only handle 300m3/min
pure forum
oh god more math
untold crown
which is 300k liters
shy mason
They raised the building cost pretty high, generators and assemblers required 2.5 times the parts, glad I picked most of the re plates from crash sites
They did simplify the foundry cost at least, modular frames instead of eibs
barren elm
Yeah it did feel odd needing steel to build your steel production
pastel hedge
You dont realize how much you leaned on the calculators until you can't use them. And then you realize that math is hard
pastel hedge
I saw
wind spade
it's hard tho
pastel hedge
Cause I built my like 400 hour factory off of your tool.
wind spade
apreciate that 🙂 I wish I could provide the new update tools for you
unfortunately multiple products are super hard to implement
pastel hedge
esp after only a day of it being out 
earnest orchid
im going to be spending 2-3 hard days working on my guide in the next couple of days, so much to add and redo with this update
finite reef
Does anybody know what the run time on 5 Biomass Burners on full stacks of Solid Biofuel?
untold crown
that depends on how hard your energy gets used
there is a burntime and then a precentage of how much energy from the max capacity is needed
get an average percentage and then do burntime * (1/(percentage/100)) to get the burntime for 1 biofuel
if I'm not wrong that is :D
finite reef
Thanks
broken brook
It's crazy this is like a whole new game
molten fjord
Any one know good ratios for Rotors? with the changes, 2 aseemblers of Reinforced Plates was a pretty simple ratio.. but Rotors don't seem as simple. I keep getting 2.5, 3.333 constructors to feed it
Though that might be intentional to get the player to overclock
barren elm
The alt recipe is simpler
1 constructor making steep pipes, 4 making wire, = 2 assemblers making rotors
molten fjord
ahh ok. I'm not that far yet, but that's good to know!
barren elm
The alt screw recipe helps a lot too
Since it produces 50 per minute, meaning you need only 2 constuctors producing screws
molten fjord
Dang that's nice
barren elm
Yeah I think the simplest might be 2 constructors with alt screws per assembler, and then 4 constructors making iron rods feeding 3 assemblers
That is if you want to use iron only
molten fjord
Guess I'll make an.. un-optimal one for now.
barren elm
It doesn't take long to get alt recipes really
untold crown
and you get slugs on the way too
barren elm
It entertains me how alt screws is now almost certainly meta
No loss of resources, costs less energy (because it doesn't require rods), and 50 fits nicely into every recipe I've found so far that needs screws
severe oriole
are there any fancy web calculators which are updated for patch 3?
wind spade
not even non-fancy
it takes time 😦
I'm hoping to get at least item/recipe browser working today tho
severe oriole
we are only early game (coal power) so all recipes are simple
that would be cool. I believe we used yours before. preaty neato 👍
lusty magnet
@wind spade I doubt you hear it enough, but your site is awesome, and we appreciate what you're doing
wind spade
I hear it a bit, but it's always nice when somebody tells me that. That's what keeps me going
(that, and 3 liters of coke in my blood, otherwise I would be asleep at 7 am lol)
lusty magnet
while it would be kind of nice if the game had built in UI support for viewing your production flow (with input/output data), there would still be a huge need for build planning sites like yours
I'm thinking stuff like cities skylines has, all the overlays and stats data that you can pull up in that game
would be neat if you could see things like power heat maps, belt congestion, etc
wind spade
I'm thinking about implementing my tools into the game when official mod support comes in
but until that, I think we're stuck with this crappy website
that isn't even updated to U3 yet BOOO
lusty magnet
I have a day job, and I would assume anyone who can build a decent site like you have probably does too. Take your time, enjoy it or it's not worth doing, right?
wind spade
I do have job (well, two jobs 😄 )
and also like 5 side projects apart from SF's tools
lusty magnet
haha, yeah if I knew a thing about site design and had a creative bone in my body maybe I'd have some projects of my own
but for now I'm just a lazy consumer, GIVE CONTENT
lusty magnet
nah it has to be in the form of eye-catching and entertaining 10 minute youtube videos, or indie games that cost $20 and take years of dedicated effort, or I'm not interested 😛
wind spade
I do have a game that I made, though it's free (or pay what you want) and it took only like a month of development and it's even more dogshit than SF
😄
lusty magnet
LOL
only game content I ever made myself... let's see I did a really stupidly simple "mod" for mass effect 2 where I just fucked with the INI files and made the biggest sniper rifle fire at SMG speeds
oh, and I made a crappy quake 2 map using a map editor CD I bought when I was a kid
still plinth
I just got an alt steel recipe. 2 Iron ingots and 2 coal for 3 steel. Regular is 3&3 so it seems like the tradoff is power but otherwise objectively better
pure forum
Anyone know the rate that coal generators burn through compacted coal?
Dont know if it is worth the extra hassle
wind spade
compacted coal has energy value of 630 MJ
coal gens produce 75 MW, which is 75 MJ per second
one compacted coal piece therefore lasts 8.4 seconds on max power load
or ~7.14 compacted coal per minute
pure forum
cheers homie
daring slate
Did update 3 change regular coal consumption for coal gens?
wind spade
yea
daring slate
Just found it in the notes: "We changed it to 15 Coal per minute, which is a lot easier to work with."
vivid sand
and oil consume from fuel generator is 15 fuel per minute too? or how much is it?
wind spade
vivid sand
yeah saw that but how do you know that its 0.25 per second
fading ember
Is there any web calculator for experimental?
wind spade
@vivid sand because of the fuel's energy value. The calculations are done for full power consumption
@fading ember no, but I'm working on it
wind spade
considering I'm basically rewriting all the code... probably not much
but I'm hoping to get at least recipe and item browser out in a few hours
untold crown
ok nice
so you don't have one big json / whatever file with all values / recipies then
wind spade
@untold crown I do have big JSON with all the recipes ready
@fading ember yes it's my website, why?
fading ember
And new calc will be on web?
wind spade
yeah
untold crown
is your code closed source or on github/similar? would really like to look into it
fading ember
Ok :)
wind spade
@untold crown current tools are in a private repo. U3 stuff will probably be open when released
sand garnet
greeny.. Iron wire is now worse than regular wire
untold crown
nice
sand garnet
at least thats my unmathematical brain's conclusion
12.5 iron ingot for 22.5 wire
or 15 copper ingot for 30
wait no
im just gonna let you decide
my brain hurts
wind spade
Iron wire seems crap yea
sand garnet
I got a math thing right? lol
sand garnet
also, screws seem to be useful now
I'll just pretend I forgot what you said about your site if they became useful again lol
Because you're awesome 😛
wind spade
well I'm already preparing to delete the site
glacial hemlock
Please don't.... 😂
wind spade
I wasn't joking 😄
sand garnet
bribery will happen
wind spade
I'm unbribable
empty hemlock
i'll give you 3 chocolate cookies
wind spade
lol you'd have to much higher actually no I'm unbribable
empty hemlock
4 chocolate cookies
coarse osprey
5 chocolate cookies?
shy mason
So now iron wire is only to serve as a fall back if you only have iron, makes sense
Now might just use extra copper ore for the alt iron ingot recipe
hazy pond
Whats the best way to get coupons early game? I just got coal power
fiery shard
Concrete is pretty good
barren elm
So a coal gen now uses exactly 15 coal per sec at full power, right?
static garnet
15pr second would be nuuuuts
cedar mica
900/m would be nuts, yeah
fiery shard
Iron wire + iron alloy isn't useless, it just isn't outrageously better in every way. You take 2 copper and 2 iron and turn it into 9 wire, while the default recipe would be 4 copper for 8 wire.
It's severely nerfed, but it's still got a use
Like, you're taking iron and using it to supplement your copper, rather than getting both more iron and more copper than you would otherwise.
humble stratus
You speak wisely
fiery shard
And,separetely, without iron alloy, that's 10 copper and 10 iron to make 38 wire, versus 45 with iron alloy
spark locust
How many water pumps do I need to fully power five coal plants?
.... Eh, I'll just say two
hazy pond
any of the calculator sites do math for tractors and truck stations? ive never messed with them before and idk how the math works with through puts
fiery shard
It's so specialized, my advice would be to time the tractor's round trip time and multiply by capacity.
wind spade
what math do you even want?
hazy pond
so im wanting to use the tractors to bring raw iron and coal to my steel factory, i know how much raw ore/min i need to input into the line, but idont know how to get the right amount of tractors and stations to reach that amount
wind spade
first I'd suggest evading trucks completely, making steel somewhere near the iron + coal nodes and using belts before you reach trains
but if you want to keep using trucks, then it's mostly by tiral and error
trucks are super random and there's like nothing that can be calculated
just set up a path and check how fast it goes there and back
then pick truck's storage capacity, divide it by the time in sedconds and multiply by 60 to get one truck's throughput on that line
hazy pond
@wind spade thanks for the help
shy mason
For trucks theres really only two calculations you need to worry about, both involving the distance. 1 is if a stack of fuel is enough to make a leg / round trip before running out of fuel, another is if the belts are feeding too much items for a single tractor / truck trip to carry, more of an issue once you reach higher belt speeds and longer trips. Otherwise as long as you have the same belt speed inputs and other stations outputs you shouldn't be having too many problems.
And remainder to avoid power breaks, as it stops loading fuel Into your truck and it's likely going to get stuck in between until you load fuel from your inventory
wide thistle
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JnaBp5nC0nEfDuJCivqBRPPWGn4Bcqjo/view?usp=sharing
Added steel production
i.e. steel pipes and beems
its my only production with shards :D
and its only for the mines
somber otter
@wide thistle I've only just picked up satisfactory with update 3... what are you using for planning? (sorry for noob question)
wide thistle
its draw.io
to make diagrams, the designs I make with ma brain XD and web2.0 calculator
somber otter
😛
wide thistle
you can use the 3 diagrams up there if uwant
somber otter
thanks man
lime bane
does 100% fuel generator consume 1 m^3 of fuel every 4 seconds? can you confirm this?
wind spade
yea
mossy bridge
in the past my factories werent all that very efficient so on this new playthrough im trying to keep the math in mind when scaling my factory
I have unlocked the 5 iron ingots for 20 screw alt recipe. The 20 screws need a 12.5 iron ingot input to be 100% efficient, does that mean I can take a pure iron node and split it up to 8 constructors and itll be more than enough?
steel mortar
With a lvl 1 miner... 120/min. 4 smelters for the full 120 ingots/min, divided by 12.5 would get you ~9 constructors max making the alt screw recipe
lime bane
next question: does we have only 300 m^3/min flow-rate pipes for now or is there any way to boost the flow?
mossy bridge
thank @steel mortar thats what I was thinking, I can overclock the constructors to make it an even 8
steel mortar
Yeah, all 8 at 120% would be gold
mossy bridge
then I need to figure out splitter combinations to make 10 work, at least with 8 @120% its 1 splitter per smelter
wind spade
manifold ftw
tulip tinsel
^
wind spade
--S--S--S--S--S--S
| | | | | |
X X X X X X
| | | | | |
--M--M--M--M--M--M
ah so just keep them all lined up, and itll fill down the line
tulip tinsel
Yeah
mossy bridge
and the math stays the same then, just need that many splitters?
tulip tinsel
we have infinite nodes and constant inputs, manifolds pretty much always work.
wind spade
yeah, manifold works the same as balancing
mossy bridge
cool
tulip tinsel
Yeah, basically the only limitation is the throughput speed of the mainbelt.
wind spade
you just need to have at least the amount of input needed
which in your case is fine, as you are going for 120/min, right?
mossy bridge
yea miner 1
wind spade
yeah so just split it off one belt
also when you'll be upgrading this, you can just add machines to the end of the chain
mossy bridge
Ok I'll merge the ingots into a single belt/storage unit and pull from there
wind spade
and upgrade the belt
tulip tinsel
Also has the benefit of being easy to scale once you get better belts.
wind spade
only disadvantage is that it'll take some time to fill up, but after that it'll work at 100%
but that's usually fine, you can either pre-fill the machines or what I do - connect it early and leave it filling while I build the next part of the production, usually before I finish, it's filled
tulip tinsel
Only place where I can see load balancers having an advantage is when you're relying on a truck route that doesn't supply resources fast enough to keep the machines saturated.
But at that point just re-design.
wind spade
in that case I'd just replace trucks with trains/belts tho 😄
tulip tinsel
I'm a sucker for trucks, but yes.
wind spade
balancers just look a bit more interesting for those who go for style over efficiency
fallow lily
Load balancing also makes sense with low volume products, where waiting for machines to fill would take a very long time.
wind spade
it's actually not that bad, as low volume products are usually also consumed in low volumes
and you use 1:1 way more then 🙂
big advantage of manifolds is also that they can work with different machine speeds/recipes (as long as they carry 1 type of item only)
tulip tinsel
I could see the lag time being long if you set up a huge plant for low volume products, but that's not normally how I build in this game.
shy mason
Exact opposite of my next mega factory build...
fallow lily
But for most purposes manifolds are good enough.
They also lend themselves to more compact/extensible builds.
tulip tinsel
Which is the main selling point for me
wind spade
yes, it takes more time for them to start running at 100%, but keep in mind how long it takes you to find the correct balancer and build it 😄
tulip tinsel
Balancers also have the issue of requiring additional belt-speed overhead on some ratios, but that's a fringe issue, like with low volume manifold saturation.
barren elm
Balancers are also a lot bigger than manifold layouts as well
mossy bridge
so belt speed just helps fill up a manifold faster, has no impact on the product rate
barren elm
Well it affects how big you can make a single manifold
wind spade
you can play around with my tool, that tries to estimate the time for manifold to work at 100% https://satisfactory.greeny.dev/machine-fill
mossy bridge
nice thanks
barren elm
And if belt speed is double the input or double the output, then you can make a double manifold instead which is even more space efficient
Which basically means using both sides of the splitter (or merger) instead of just one
wind spade
X X X
| | |
--S--S--S
| | |
X X X
You could get around belt limits by using mergers between splitters to add to slower belts if you wanted to use multiple miners on the same manifold design
Then delete the merger after researching the next belt tier
sand garnet
Is it me, or does bolted Iron plated suck as a recipe compared to the regular recipe?
it's like, fewer machines but more resources?
vs
screws are a massive bottleneck early game, so Im guessing I should stick to regular RIP?
wind spade
sand garnet
yeah I didnt get stitched iron plates yet 😦 only had 3 drives
wind spade
🇷🇮 🇵
sand garnet
got super unlucky with the HDD lottery
white mirage
Is iron wire even worth it anymore? I used to just use copper nodes to increase iron production but if the rebalance screwed that over no sense in doing that in a fresh play through
shy mason
Less power I guess for 1 assembler vs 3, yeah 2 less plates for three reinforced, but an extra 14 screws for same number of re plates.
wind spade
aparently it isn't worth
raven oracle
Whats the burn time of 1m³ liquid fuel in a fuel generator? or rather whats the consumption in m³/min, cant find this information anywhere
wind spade
0.25m3 per second on max consumption
fiery shard
Iron wire is worth it if you don't have enough copper. It's not just globally better to turn all your copper into iron and then into wire.
you get a slight discount on wire with iron wire + iron alloy
in terms of total ore, but if you value iron slightly higher than copper, it's not worth it
barren elm
Bolted iron plating saves you 2 assemblers worth of power
fallow lily
Trade offs are good.
barren elm
Combined with alt screws saving you a total of 20mw due to not needing rods too
So all in all bolted iron saves you 50mw
white mirage
There’s more iron than copper in the world, but copper used to only be used for wire and cable
fiery shard
Yeah, so it doesn't simplify your factory anymore
because you still gotta get copper in there somewhere
raven oracle
@wind spade how can this be? my generator burns through several m³ per second, and the burn time displays 0s, which means it has to be <0,5s. where did you get your information?
lone yoke
Greeny, what be ya progress on ya calculator?
raven oracle
running at 150MW, so no
where did you get the energy value for liquid fuel? wiki isnt updated yet
lone yoke
ahh alriught
Just, secretly hoping ya get the calc working when I get to super computers, because screw trying to do that in my head lol
fallow lily
Make a spreadsheet? ;)
wind spade
lol
lone yoke
My brain wil lexplode
wind spade
I'm currently working on item browser only
lone yoke
It already is on all the changes because it aint what im used to
wind spade
but I will start working on the calculator later
lone yoke
ooof
fallow lily
Does item browser work include recipes?
wind spade
it will need a big refactor, considering you can no longer just use revese tree traversal for calculations
yeah, recipes, materials for factories and maybe even schematics
fallow lily
Cool
raven oracle
@wind spade so the value you extracted was 600MJ/m³ for l.fuel?
wind spade
I may also include some simple calculations on per-recipe basis
@raven oracle 1 liter of fuel has 0.6 MJ
daring ravine
is there a max flow rate for pipes?
wind spade
yeah, 300m3/min
summer field
They should list that clearly in the user interface of pipes, so it's more obvious.
summer field
Yeah, but like put it in the description or something, so people can't miss it.
wind spade
well on U3 launch it said "5m3 liters/min", so I guess we've gone a long way from that already
daring ravine
so if I had a pipe going straight down from a tank of water, how far would it have to go to reach 300m3/min?
wind spade
each pipe has a throughput of max 300m3/min
tough eagle
That's a great question. Could you reduce the number of pumps needed and keep the system going by dropping elevation. Utilize elevation head
daring ravine
I haven't started up the experimental patch yet so I don't know the mechanics, but in a fever dream I thought of a sky station where trains take liquids to to be dropped through pipes toward their destination
max throughput probably kills it though
tough eagle
I havent had a chance to mess with it either but I'm on my way home from the airport so hopefully soon
last fable
for the balancer vs manifold: you want to use a balancer when your max beltspeed can't handle the total volume of ressources, an n:m balancer doesn't need to go n:1:m but a manifold does (ofc you can combine the b2 by just balancing to 2 parts and then going manifold again)
wind spade
@last fable in those cases we usually just use two manifolds 🙂
there's no need to balance the belts before them
last fable
well you need to balance so that both manifolds get the right amount ;P
wind spade
or build the manifolds for the right amounts from start so that you don't have to balance 😛
last fable
for example (assuming 60 is max speed) you have 3 factories producing 84 units total, then 4 consumers eating 21 each, you need to bbbalance bebfore manis
prime pine
can anyone help me with a quick math on reinforce iron plates (Pm me if you can)
wind spade
@prime pine we can do it here, it may help other pple as well
prime pine
aight
last fable
same for me greeny, but that one isn't a manifold^^
prime pine
@wind spade We have 1200 Iron ingot output per min(mk3 belts) divided on 5 belts so 240x5=1200. Whats the maximum amount of assemblers possible to create reinforced iron plates and how many constructors is need for plates,rods and screws
wind spade
ex or ea?
prime pine
ex
wind spade
which alts do you have available and/or which ones do you want to use?
prime pine
no alts at all
prime pine
awesome
wind spade
RIP: 6 plates + 12 scres -> 1 plate (12 secs)
Screw: 1 rod -> 4 screws (6 secs)
Rod: 1 ingot -> 1 rod (4 secs)
Plate: 3 ingots -> 2 plates (6 secs)
production of one RIP machine is 5 plates/min, eating 30 plates/min and 60 screws/min
production of one screw machine is 40 screws/min, eating 10 ingots/min. So to match RIP machine, you need 1.5 screw machines, which is 60 screws/min output from 15 ingots/min input
production of one ingot machine is 15 rods/min, so you need just 1 for that. It also eats 15 ingots/min.
production of one plate machine is 20 plates/min, eating 30 ingots/min, again we need 1.5 machine, so 30 plates/min, 45 ingots/min consumption.
The one "module is then":
1 assembler for RIP
1.5 constructors for screws
1 constructor for rods
1.5 constructors for plates
eating 60 ingot/min, producing 5 RIP/min.
You have 1200 ingot available, so you can build 20 of those modules, resulting in:
20 assemblers for RIP
30 screw constructors
20 rod constructors
30 plate constructors
eating 1200 ingots/min, producing 60 RIP/min
daring slate
yeah, you can see recipies in-game by pressing the "X" menu
prime pine
i know but i thought the recipes for iron plates were different before this update, i might be wrong
prime pine
@wind spade But you said 60 RIP/min but an assembler gives out 5/min doesnt that mean 20x5=100/min?
prime pine
aight thanks man;) lets get cracking i guess 😛
vital flower
wahts the ratio water pump to coal gens? and any properties of distance to take in mind?
also to add the pumps are above my coal gens
dark wadi
pumps push 120. Gens eat 45. so you get 2.6666 per water pump. Or 3 pumps for 8 coal gens (you need 2 pipes for that as a pipe only can push 300/s.)
vital flower
thats just what i needed thank you!
carmine thicket
how many smelters can an overclocked mk1 miner support with mk2 belts?
supple bloom
What node purity?
glossy ravine
Lol. I am so screwed without online calculator, everytime I try to it myself I get a different result
still plinth
Divide the output of the miner by 30 easy math @carmine thicket
Well 120 is mk2 belts so 120/30=4
glossy ravine
1 Modular frame @ 100% uses 48 Iron Ingot/min (using casted screws). Anyone able to check if I got that correct?
Well i got the same result 2 times in a row so thats good enough for me
still plinth
If you work backwards from the assembler and you've gotten the same number twice you're probably golden
dark wadi
@vital flower I messed up on the numbers. Each coal take 50 not 45. so the calc for 3 for 8 is off.
vital flower
my friends and I were just double checking
dark wadi
I guess I once again messed up. the building (coal generator) can hold 50, but the consumption is 45m3/min
although I appear to be able to support 3 coal gens with 1 pump. so still watching.
fierce ruin
i think ur gonna mess up again lol
solar arrow
its just hold an extra 5ml of water so 45 is still correctr
dark wadi
yeah, based on the math, I should be loosing water level. (120 in -45 -45 -45) => -15. but nothing appears to be dropping.
solar arrow
did you have a fluid buffer on it and it stored water before and its eating that
dark wadi
nope no buffer. the pump even acts like it's at full capacity. By that I mean the pump shuts off every now and then b/c the pipe is full. I was waiting for the water to drop but it doesn't go down. It just stays full. I don't want to flush the system as that might "correct" whatever is wrong. Right now I'll just see what happens.
I guess I could post screen shots to show what I'm seeing. Let me go collect those.
carmine thicket
how many coal generators can 1 normal coal node with an mk1 miner support?
still plinth
Coal generators consume coal max at 15/m
final sparrow
The generators consume less if you aren't using all of the power they are generating, so if you're only using half of the power being generated, you wouldn't need the full 135 of water and one pump could support them
dark wadi
That must be it. I'm only using about 1/2 the energy right now.
fierce ruin
wow, this is most awesome server ive i gone in to
everyone is helpful
u guys should be granted some extra things
glacial hemlock
That means 4 generators
deft viper
Anyone have an efficiency breakdown on the new alt recipes?
oblique hollow
If only. I've yet to get my hands on some of them
deft viper
I admit I haven't looked much but this channel was always a fav back when I played before 😛
I know it's still pretty new
earnest orchid
@deft viper considering there are 30 more then before might take a little bit to get that info
i dont think anyone has unlocked them all yet
deft viper
yeah I know 😛 Well maybe someone has a couple they have found to keep an eye out for?
earnest orchid
im waitng for a mod to be updated then I will know what they are
earnest orchid
same here
deft viper
I haven't played since before train update so I'm quite out the loop 😛
earnest orchid
everyone is, its all new
oblique hollow
I wonder..... Ive had an old save loaded, and had a lot of recipes. If they transferred then....
deft viper
yeah I decided best not to even try my old save lmao
earnest orchid
the recipes are still available, but not sure if they show up in the mam
oblique hollow
I'll have a look tomorrow.
earnest orchid
im yet to go over everything in my god mode save
deft viper
can you god mode? or is that a mod thing?
earnest orchid
and i have to wait for greenys new tools so i can rework out my new factory
mod thing
deft viper
did they open console commands?
earnest orchid
i use a specific mod for god mode
deft viper
I suspected... I'd be tempted with that
earnest orchid
i do it when i get a bit bored and want to sandbox stuffs
deft viper
I figured I'd mess around vanilla for a bit and then try a couple out... plus that gives time for them to get updated
well my thing is when a game is in early access I like to have the ability to right it's "wrongs" 😛
earnest orchid
i play both, sometimes vanilla sometimes the god mode, depends on my mood, great thing about god mode is just building without worrying about supplies
earnest orchid
yeah you can, you have to launch the mod to use it, it doesnt run when you launch the game
deft viper
Can anyone attest to MP efficiency as of late? Reading patch notes theres a lot there to imply it's greatly improved from last I played... any decent size factory made MP just not fun lmao
Also... Maikeru... may I ask the name of said mod?
deft viper
Shame. Would be a lot of fun once they sort it out.
Thank you
earnest orchid
dedicated servers will be that fix
deft viper
I'd be all over that
solid talon
i need help figuring out some of the stuff with the new update as far as like what supports what. its been a while since ive played. is the method of using a splitter in the middle and then smelter/constructor ect still viable or is there a new method? and how much can the water pumps support and can you feed multiple into a pipeline.
i know its a lt im sorry
deft viper
I don't see why the manifold technique wouldn't work still
solid talon
good cuz thats all i know how to do lol
deft viper
I haven't messed with water yet though
untold crown
a pipe can handle 300m3/min
oblique hollow
Water Extractors supply 120k liters (= m3)
untold crown
one waterpump pumps 120m3/min
solid talon
ok so that should be about 4 coals then?
untold crown
?
oblique hollow
No about 2.666 coal gens
untold crown
ratio is 8 generators, 120 coal/min, 3 water extractors (not a single pipe though)
just feed the water back in from the side. works fine
solid talon
ok ill try that out as i just hit coal
untold crown
thats how i solved the pipe throughput issue ;)
oblique hollow
1 pipe system can at max volume handle about 6 - 7 coal generator at max power
solid talon
how did you get the splitter lined up? i noticed they can only be placed on the lines
solid talon
ok i wish they could be placed like conveyer splitters
untold crown
yeah, there is a proposal for this on the QA site
untold crown
you need an account though. thats where you also post your bug reports to. (if there isn't one already on that particular issue to minimize duplicates)
solid talon
i will check it out thanks!
pure terrace
Is water to plastic any good or just stick to oil
untold crown
water to plastic? is that an alternative?
deft viper
@untold crown Seems pretty straight forward 😛 Thanx for pic though
pure terrace
When u make fuel u get rasign and if u mix it with water u also get plastic
untold crown
what would you do with the resin otherwise?
oblique hollow
Crush
untold crown
nah use the plastic from it for supercomputers and crush those
pure terrace
Does the sea counts as water or does it have to be a lake?
earnest orchid
sea counts
pure terrace
So nuclear plants on the sea hehe
untold crown
and waste storage underwater?
cobalt pulsar
What's the current best Hard Drives for 3.0?
oblique hollow
Arent they all the same. You mean recipes?
cobalt pulsar
Alternate Recipes, yeah
oblique hollow
We dont know, since they either got changed or new ones were introduced. A lot of players still have to get their hands on them
arctic timber
Is anyone compiling a list of new/altered recipes online?
blazing yew
IMHO it’s all about the specific player lol. Too many people rely others to dictate their gameplay. Go explore have fun and be you always.
@arctic timber once I get established I was going to do it for fun and see how many I find.
barren elm
You're in a channel called "maths and meta", the whole point of the word "meta" is communicating with others to affect your gameplay in an ideally optimal way
still plinth
Casted screws is great. Also I got an alt steel that need ingots but gave you more steel so the downside is more power
barren elm
Yeah it both saves you coal, and makes you spend more coal on power
Though I think the tradeoff is worth it
still plinth
Once you get coal access power isn't an issue. So unless you're at the point of harvesting every node then you are prioritizing throughput usually. That's why I like the recipe, and it makes the ratios for constructors afterwards much cleaner. 1-1 for beams and 1-2 for pipes
nimble igloo
oblique hollow
Beacons, Solid Biofuel, Rotors, Modular Frames
spiral remnant
There was some confusing discussion about coal gens a few hours ago, but
For 8 coal gens, you need 2 pipes being filled up by 5 water extractors, right? That's the ratio.
oblique hollow
3 extractors
spiral remnant
8 coal gens needs 75 * 8 = 600m³ water/min. 3 extractors only produces 360m³ water/min.
spiral remnant
Oh shit, I misremembered then. Thanks.
sand venture
Have any of the calculator tools been updated for the new updates changed recipies?
reef pond
@spiral remnant this is why overclock my water pumps only need 1 pump to max out a pipe
spiral remnant
It's pretty easy to just put 5 pumps into 2 pipes, the maths works out well. Coal gens are more annoying, though...
reef pond
anyone know the base consumption rate at max power for a fuel generator?
oblique hollow
My current theory on Pipe Hydrostatics. Testing needed
brave notch
I don't understand the Stiched Iron Plate recipe in U3
U2 it makes 7.5/min base with a clean 30 Iron ore/min consumption + some odd math for Wire
Then U3 comes along and just...
why
It's actually worse than the base recipe as far as I can tell
earnest orchid
i dont think alts have been updated on the sites yet?
earnest orchid
whats the original again?
brave notch
reef pond
wire consumption is lower which is nice
earnest orchid
Grapz the new recipe actually looks better
more plates and less wire is a good thing, there is more iron then copper on the map
sand venture
Also total Iron overall is down if using Iron Wire
reef pond
20% decrease in iron plate consumption and a 45% decrease in wire consumption for 25% decrease in output
earnest orchid
less output and cheaper to make really
reef pond
still better then the og iron plate recipe
1 million screws and half a million plates later 😂
astral hornet
So if I got this right, 3 water extractors (360m3) can support 8 coal generators BUT you'll need two lines of pipes, as the max flow rate is (300m3), correct?
brave notch
I'm just confused on the odd numbers across the board for consumption rates.
astral hornet
@brave notch you and me both.
If you wanna achieve "perfect" ratios, I think you need to do much more under/overclocking. But maybe that's what they intended.
reef pond
@astral hornet if you pipe the water on each side **WP**==gen==gen==gen==gen=gen==gen==gen==gen==**WP**
you should be ok
astral hornet
@reef pond oh, even with only two pumps? Interesting
reef pond
well my pumps are overclocked so theres that
astral hornet
ah, yeah, there's that option too of course :p
brave notch
I have yet to find a good % Clock Speed that gives a nice even ratio for Stitched Plates...
Bah humbug. I'll just stick with Bolted either way
reef pond
as long as the water pipe is maxed out on each side you are good to go
brave notch
Better in every regard
astral hornet
I think I'm underclocking the assembler to only output 4 plates at the moment and slightly overclock the plate production, or something like that
@brave notch doesn't the bolted recipe need like 250 screws/minute? So you need mk3 belts?
reef pond
@brave notch why dont you jsut change the output number instead of the %
astral hornet
and like 5 constructors making the alternate recipe...
reef pond
astral hornet
yeah, that's such a nice addition that you can now do that
brave notch
Yes yes I know you can do that
astral hornet
though I've noticed it's a little bugged on miners, unless they fixed that already
brave notch
And yeah, Bolted has an insane cost at first glance
But I'm using a single Mk 2 Normal Node OC'd to 200% supporting it & Modular Frames with excess.
Could speed some things up but I haven't figured out what and where yet.
reef pond
but back to your thing about the pumps @astral hornet if you are pushing 300 water on each side you can reach 6.66 generators from each side so you get enough overlap in the middle to cover them at full draw
astral hornet
I'm only just setting up coal power, so I'm a little earlier in the progress. Only have mk2 belts atm
brave notch
Yeah, we just got Mk 3
astral hornet
I just wish there was a nice mechanic of making materials AND stockpiling some AND sending excess to the sink. But I think you need priority splitters for that
reef pond
im trying to plan my fuel gen site and am not sure even where to start 😦
brave notch
One more resource to Automate for the Space Needle Elevator till Tiers 5/6
astral hornet
I started in that "best starting spot" thing close to the northen forest, where there's 4 pure iron nodes. There's coal super close to a huge lake. It's really perfect
reef pond
thats how my coal is set up
astral hornet
Anyway, gotta get to it before I run out of biofuel :p
reef pond
im guessing we dont know the new fuel gen fuel consumption rate tho 😦
glacial hemlock
The coal with water is pretty close with the grass field too! Just 3min walk
reef pond
anyone getting some weird flow rates with oil pumps?
spiral remnant
Weird how?
timber iris
would I ask a rather noob ish question about manifolds here or in #old-questions-and-help ?
formal loom
I won't judge you.
timber iris
lol
astral hornet
Do we know how much coal a coal generator uses at max speed? do the old ratios still count?
timber iris
I'm on EX branch but it's been quite a while since last I played..
for the life of me I can't quite recall the pro/con of keeping in mind a lines throughput in a manifold..
case in point, I have a Pure Iron node, and access to Mk2 belts.
120 items p/m..
I'd like to set up at least 4 or more smelters off the line.
4 would be a even 30 each.. but could I get away with more and still have it work "properly" ?
astral hornet
@timber iris if you're using up all the output, they won't work properly as far as I understand.
formal loom
You could add more, but you lose efficiency. The only time you get a gain is when there is a back up in your system that is suddenly cleared.
(and only because the extra machines work like small buffers.
HOWEVER, as you gain efficiency through technology you are already positioned to take immediate benefit.
timber iris
well redundancy is never a horrible thing to have.. I do worry about cloging on the out-end of the smelters.. but so long as I get that end of the buss from there right it shouldn't be tooo bad right?
formal loom
Nope, your only limiting factors as far as I can tell are space and energy.
timber iris
I'm in the forest area with the 1 pure copper, and 6 pure iron (though 1 is boldered) there is also 2 normal limstone and 1 pure.
silent sigil
you will soon gain mk 2 miner and that would mean double the output. i wouldn't put more than 8 smelters if i were you.
formal loom
If I have ample power, I build as if I'm using over-clocked tier 3 miners. I find it easier to plot my base in advance of the technology, rather than tear-down and rework to make space for added through-put.
timber iris
mm that would work well. I'm a rather slow progressor.. much as I'd like to rush for Coal Generators..
do you have those smelters run off the same line or do you split the line for 4, and 4? my test I had been working on in normal was just right off a line from the mine with spliters in a nice row.
formal loom
There is no reason they can't be run off of the same line.
timber iris
ye I was rather fond of how tidy I could get it
I'm rather the sort that will get a set up sorted and then put down some walling outlines for w/e building I might encase it all in later.
I've got a lovely 4 constructor unit set up for concreat atm.
reef pond
i start off with the best intentions of keeping it neat. then it turns into spagetti
timber iris
tossed a #screenshots of that constructor thing I got going up.
fallow lily
3 to 8.
supple bloom
Cool
fervent fossil
Hasn’t the coal burn changed to 15per min at full load??
formal loom
yes
oblique hollow
4 seconds per coal
fervent fossil
Are people setting up reserve tanks for 8 coal plants setups???
formal loom
I always add some buffers in case I get an outage.
fervent fossil
I haven’t unlocked it yet, but I am so looking forward to working with fluids
brave notch
It's... rather lackluster, unfortunately
The fact that Pipe Splitters don't snap to... anything is annoying
And you are constantly limited by 300m^3 flowrate of pipes.
formal loom
It would be nice if the splitters snapped, but there are some work-arounds so you can still place them perfectly. I don't mind the pipes so much. I think the coal generators consume too much water, but that is a separate issue.
barren elm
That's not really snapping to a grid
formal loom
You're right, but they don't line up with the <ctrl> lines.
barren elm
Which is what he's talking about
sand garnet
Ah yea
barren elm
I kinda like messy pipes though
formal loom
There are some tedious work arounds for us very OCD people though.
sand garnet
Like the pumps they only snap to pipes. Theyre not seen as standalone structures
humble stratus
I got one question, is there a calculator somewhere to check how much storage I need for nuclear waste, to have set amount of hours of undisturbed gameplay, with set amount of nuclear reactors?
tulip bronze
Hey guys, what is a good amount of heavy frames/minute to aim for? So the advanced stuff that requres 'em moves smoothly, without blowing numbers to the sky.
formal loom
The correct answer @tulip bronze is more.
I start with 60, then advance them to meet targets of more advanced components.
tulip bronze
60 heavy frames/minute?
tulip bronze
Suddenly my 3600 iron/min seems a tad too few.
tulip bronze
Like, I could handle 14 frames/min easy just.. I keep worrying that if I focus too much on one item, then I won't have enough for other things I need.
formal loom
So realistically, here's how I do it. I layout enough space to produce 60/min. I just like that number, then I start by making one machine produce them 100% efficiently, then add as I go.
It is far more efficient to belt advanced components than their parts, so consider making them remotely and just bringing in the completed product.
tulip bronze
How do you udnerstand how much space you need for that target?
formal loom
I wrote a small little program.
tulip bronze
Do you lay down the first 100% production, and then multiply?
formal loom
but you can do it easily enough in a spreadsheet.
First , work out how many machines you need for the target product. The size of the machines are available online.
Then determine the number of components you need, and do the same for each machine that requires those components.
tulip bronze
Hmm, ok! I'll see that I can get
Also, if I have an alternate recipe for something, is it better to use that? Over the standard one.
formal loom
There is also an online calculator that people use for determining what machines they need. I am not sure if it is updated for the experimental branch.
It really depends on the alternate recipe. Some are more useful than others.
Here's the calculator. This will get you a long way. https://satisfactory-calculator.com/
tulip bronze
Generally, what's the best way to discern what recipe is better?
formal loom
Early game, it probably depends what resources you have available, end game, it probably depends on which resource nodes you have tapped.
tulip bronze
Like, sticking with the heavy frame. I have the one with screws, and the one with steel pipes. I want to go with the steel pipes because, to me, it seems easier than getting screws involved along the line. And I have alternate recipes for encased beams/modular frames which require steel pipes too.
formal loom
Yes, that makes complete sense.
tulip bronze
Oh, good! So, steel pipes all the way.
formal loom
At least for now! Min-maxers might have a different answer for end game, but you have to get there first, and by the time you are there, you'll probably know if you need to change anything.
sand garnet
Calculators havent been fully updated to the new recipes
tulip bronze
Yeh, when I first hit heavy frames/computers I realized that my base had to be wiped flat, and rebuilt anew with bigger numbers in mind
spiral remnant
Early on especially, you can use alt recipes to eliminate screws completely and use steel pipes for a million different things
So you can just make a giant pipe plant and use it for a dozen different purposes, which is really nice.
But yeah, end-game stuff is another beast.
tulip bronze
Does 960 pipes/min sound good?
sullen cloud
what's the consumption rate of turbo fuel / min for power generators?
scarlet marsh
the alt recipes are almost always much better
i recommend researching the alt recipe first before even setting up production for the component
each alt recipe saves resources/produces more/quicker, when you start stacking up all the savings all of the subcomponents it really adds up
upbeat goblet
what is the ratio of water pumps to coal generators?
barren elm
@scarlet marsh Not on experimental
scarlet marsh
i heard that might be the case
but have yet to see anything on what the recipe/alt recipe changes are
do you know where to find that info?
barren elm
Think most people are still updating their tools, haven't found anything up to date yet
In general they now fall into 3 categories. Easier to use but uses more materials, uses different materials but basically the same output, and uses more advanced materials but saves on basic resources
fiery shard
In the old version, there were recipes that were more expensive and more complicated and gave you less stuff
scarlet marsh
is what it sounds like
@fiery shard only a few, the large majority were only positive benefit
fiery shard
not sure if those are still in
molten fjord
Has any one found nice numbers for coal power, water pumps and pipes? Max flow rate of a pipe is 300m3/m, which means it can support 6.66~ steam gens at 45m3/m. You'd need 2.5 pumps to get 300m3/m. I could have my numbers wrong.
fallow lily
15 to 40 would work out.
tough eagle
The numbers look right. To be optimal, you wont be pushing 300 m3/min. Instead you'll put 2 pumps to get to 240 and then every few coal generators, you'll have to inject more pumps into the line. It can supply 5 coal generators before it needs more
There have been some odd quirks though and I'm not sure if people have figured out what's a bug and what's intended operation yet.
barren elm
Personally I use 5 coal gens and 2 turbines underclocked a little
Since they changed coal gens to use 15 coal per sec, that means a block of 5 coal gens uses 75 coal per sec
That fits nicely with 250% overclocked coal miners
formal loom
3 Water pumps to 8 coal generators, using 120 coal per minute works out perfectly.
molten fjord
Would that be two pipelines then?
formal loom
I use 1 per water pump.
using 1 pipeline didn't seem to have the throughput needed to keep the coal plants topped up during full energy production of 6 plants. I'm not sure if there is a bug, or if I'm not understanding something.
molten fjord
yeah
on that note.. I have 5 of them running off 1 pipe, so it should be pulling way more than 45m3/min from the pipeline. However the flowrate of the pipeline is currently 50m3/min ish
I don't understand
formal loom
There are things like elevation to consider, and the buffers seem to have an impact, but at this point it is hard to be sure what is actually happening, thus the multiple pipelines.
molten fjord
fair
formal loom
This is my setup that seems to work well.
The buffers are really only necessary as a backup in case of full power loss.
nocturne flower
Also keep in mind that consumption of power matters. Yes it should be pulling 45m3/min but it should look more like if it's burning 15/sec then that's .05m3/coal burned. But that's speculating
formal loom
right.
molten fjord
ah that makes sense
nocturne flower
I'm running 6 coal generators on one water pump at about 50% power capacity with no conflict at all
molten fjord
Hopefully they'll improve the signs and feedback on liquid stuff in the future
barren elm
120 doesn't work out perfectly because 250% overclocked mines ends up giving multiples of 75 coal, not 60 or 120
So eventually you're going to have to have a block of 2 or 4 coal gens instead of 8
Not to mention that 3 pumps doesn't fit into 1 pipe
formal loom
You don't need 3 pumps to fit into 2 pipe, and given 120 coal, it actually is perfect. Overclocking gives you completely different numbers.
dawn lark
For coal I have 3 pumps under clocked to 90 for 270 per pipe for 6 generators, so I have 3 pipes for 18
formal loom
Sorry, you don't need 3 pumps to fit into 1 pipe.
formal loom
Because everyone has to start somewhere.
barren elm
It's essentially then 4 coal gens per pipe, when you could be getting 5
formal loom
Pipes have essentially no cost as the resources that create them are infinite.
dawn lark
It's all space
formal loom
space is a consideration, but given the 3d nature of the game, I've yet to find space to be a real issue.
But yes, you're absolutely right. If you overclock part of the process, the numbers change.
dawn lark
Just under clock pumps, easy 2:1 :D
tough eagle
I like to create with parallel expansion in mind. If you line up your coal generators, you just have to insert pumped water every 5 or 6 generators, depending on how you manage the pumps. That way as I expand power from the same node, I keep expanding on the same design.
oblique hollow
Ive just tried to test pipes and pumps. Pressure, throughput, head lift...... Its all nonesense. The pumps are always at max no matter what, and they even seem to OBSTRUCT the flow of liquids
formal loom
That was my experience too.
oblique hollow
guess which tank fills the fastes
formal loom
Add in buffers and it gets weirder.
The top one SHOULD fill the slowest, but judging by your question, I'm not sure.
oblique hollow
top one is 24 meters, it never fills
actually the second lowest is the fastest, followed by the second highest
formal loom
how much lower are the water sources?
formal loom
yeah
formal loom
The source should be able to push a certain amount of head as well, which I would expect to be cumulative with the pumps.
oblique hollow
Pressure is not cumulative it seems
formal loom
Do me a favour and add another pump to the top one and see if it fills. 🙂
formal loom
Hrmm.. it looks like they need to do some rework.
oblique hollow
Actually: every tank is filling at 30m3 / min
perfectly quartering the Extractors output
formal loom
oh, okay, I should have assumed it was being split.
So the only behavior I don't quite understand is how much head pumps push, but that should be easy to test.
oblique hollow
So, ive disconnected the top tank
the 2 bottom ones now each receive 55 m3 / min
excuse me, 60
the second highest ones now gets nothing
formal loom
Normally I would expect the lower tanks to fill first, but the way you have it staggered, I wouldn't expect the bottom two to fill at the same rate.
robust granite
Is it even worth it to make something major pipes when stuff like this happen?
Ill should way for EA and just experiment
formal loom
I expect there will be some updates.
untold crown
fixing / more logical fluid physics is done internally already iirc
oblique hollow
To summarize: pumps do in fact help transport liquids up, but they have catches:
Pipeline Pumps require a minimum level of fluid to be in their pipes.
Pumps do not add their pressures together
formal loom
lol damn! the giant moth flew through my floor as I was typing that, and took me on a magic carpet ride.
oblique hollow
Pumps do not increase throughput
formal loom
Pumps should only increase head, not throughput.
robust granite
What about pressure?
oblique hollow
thats indead all they seem to be able to do
formal loom
That's comforting @untold crown
robust granite
So use pumps only when they are going up?
oblique hollow
Pressure is a lie: its just a way to say: after 20 m of lift, you need a new one. Dont bother installing one earlier than about 15 meters after the last one
untold crown
maybe im mistaking though, searching the post on the qa site
formal loom
It's been about 30 years since I took fluid hydraulics, but I wouldn't think pressure should factor in. We're really only concerned with volume.
oblique hollow
Pumps increase the upwards distance of liquids from their current position.
robust granite
What about giant and long pipelines? Do you even need them in such situation?
oblique hollow
Horizontal lines dont matter, only vertical ones
untold crown
Ah found it „in progress“
https://questions.satisfactorygame.com/post/5e442403b38be8f3ed215fd6
robust granite
Oh, well thats disappointing.
formal loom
They seem to be ignoring aspects like friction, so the length of the pipe seems to have no bearing.
robust granite
Do buffers fill with a capped speed?
formal loom
Ah, good! @untold crown . I guess you can't expect all software developers to understand fluid hydraulics perfectly, and if they did, implementing it in a manner that works for satisfactory is a different problem again.
robust granite
Indeed
oblique hollow
This post seems to confirm my suspicion:
Pumps and Extractors have an inner counter: if the liquid in the pipe attached to them rises, the pressure counter decreases. if it hits 0 it wont rise any higher
untold crown
@formal loom Yeah. I really like the blogposts from the factorio devs on their fluid handling algorithms though. Really shows how hard it is to get something realistic which still has got good performance
formal loom
Absolultely.
There are so many Bacon Agaric's flying in the air, I'm gonna start calling them the Mary Poppin's plant.
They look like little umbrellas anyway.
tough eagle
Pressure is very relevant to flow
If all else is static increasing the head pressure will increase the flow rate. Differential pressure is what's relevant
I work in a refinery. We vary flow by pressure changes both upstream and downstream all the time
If we have enough head, we can often turn off our pumps and still hit the desired flow in systems. That's usually when there's a reduction in elevation but not always
oblique hollow
Remember that this is a very alpha fluid system
its... not very refined
The "pressure" system is, as far as i can tell, really just a counter that counts the ammount of meters your pipes go up
aaaand limits flow based on that
tough eagle
And I wouldnt be surprised if they want to keep it simple like that. It's a game afterall. A lot decisions are made balancing fun vs complexity. Added complexity is more fun up until a certain tipping point where it just becomes frustration for most people.
oblique hollow
Yea simplicity with the pipes is good but the current state is not okiedokie
tough eagle
It's hard to distinguish what's a bug vs intended right now
oblique hollow
oh the pumps definitely are bugged
dawn lark
Seems like it works fine so far
oblique hollow
the head lift gauge is broken and has little use right now
dawn lark
It is? Works for me a far as I can tell
oblique hollow
mine just always ramp up to 22.5 meters
barren elm
After having played with pipes for a while now
I feel like the pressure system is just completely not needed, they're nicely complex without it imo
oblique hollow
using them as throughput boosters would be interesting
barren elm
It promotes some really degenerate gameplay like building your base underwater
lone yoke
not really? Pumps are cheap and only use 4 power
And you cant say that for fuel gens, and all the processing around that along with aluminum later on
barren elm
And that's 4 power you wouldn't be using if you built in a lake
oblique hollow
currently it just doesnt feel exciting to use them
barren elm
I dunno, I get factorio vibes from it which makes me happy
oblique hollow
dont get me wrong, i like the idea and design and stuff. just their current state is.... sad
barren elm
The only thing I wanna see is having the "pipe splitter" thing snap to grid
And maybe also snap ontop of splitters/mergers
dawn lark
Yeah I want the cross pipe to be able to be placed standalone so I can use it like any other splitter, even stack them
lone yoke
I like it all, and again, you dont have to build under a lake ;P thats a choice and it would be an ugly looking choice
Still I think its a nice system, giving it some limitation so you cant just do anything you like
barren elm
You don't have to, but you are rewarded for doing so
dawn lark
Just build the power plant at sea level. Can still look nice on an artificial island
lone yoke
"rewarded" in what? having like 4? 8? pwoer not being used? hardly anything compared to what you will be generating
Honestly I think your are looking for an issue that aint there tbh
barren elm
You're disagreeing with me despite acknowledging that my maths is right
lone yoke
its so minor its just.. not worth considering anyway
lone yoke
honestly, the devs could fix this by not allowing you to build underwater. simple
nocturne flower
Does anyone here have definite confirmation on the water consumption of coal generators at full load?
Is it in patch notes or somewhere in UI I overlooked?
oblique hollow
coal gens use 45 m3 water /min,
if you use 3 water extractors you can supply exactly 8 coal gens
nocturne flower
Ok thanks, how do we know that? Just curious.
reef pond
i think you can get away with 2 fully overclocked water pumps
otherwise you need 3
or even 150% overclocked pumps
nocturne flower
My goal is gonna be to setup 40 coal generators. Sounds like this will look like the following:
6 water extractors @250% (300/pipe)
40 generators paired in 8s making 5 sets of 8 feeding 5 pipes into each set of 8 with 6th pipe feeding extra in.
1mk 2 miner on coal at 250%
reef pond
hmm
let me try to make a diagram
**WP**
||
**WP**==CP==CP==CP==CP==CP==CP==CP==CP==
|| || ||
==CP==CP==CP==CP==CP==CP==CP==CP==**WP**
|| || ||
**WP**==CP==CP==CP==CP==CP==CP==CP==CP==
|| || ||
==CP==CP==CP==CP==CP==CP==CP==CP==**WP**
|| || ||
**WP**==CP==CP==CP==CP==CP==CP==CP==CP==
im guessing thats what you are imagining?
nocturne flower
Probably something along those lines. Probably will be more realistically pairs of 4 coal gens to make the 8 gonna probably start working on it tonight
reef pond
yea i wasnt thinking about the coal supply thats pretty easy to figure out 😂
nocturne flower
Visually I'm gonna run all 6 pipes down middle and link the 6th in every 4 generators. Something like that.
Pipes really feel they should have 360 capacity, but they gotta keep a challenge somewhere
reef pond
i mean all the pipes can be connected
since they flow in both ways
the pipe tees are just like dumb splitter/mergers tho
so it will split out 300 to 150/150 on 2 connections
nocturne flower
I am suspecting that even if we haven't fully observed it yet that if I put 8 gens running 100% on a 300m3 pipe itll run dry on that line. So it should be augmented downstream to make the full 360 need
reef pond
thats why i have the pumps on opposite sides
with the 6th shooting straight down the middle
in a standard ```
WP==CP==CP==CP==CP==CP==CP==CP==CP==WP
the middle 2 are likely to run drywell
actually **WP**==CP==CP==CP==CP==CP==CP==CP==CP== then one on the right side runs dry
but if you alternate and connect the other pump line going the "opposite" way it will keep the last one from running dry
nocturne flower
Interesting
reef pond
additionally with the 6th pump running down between the 4th and 5th generator you get extra water in the pipe which should keep anything from drying out
if you want to be safe attach a 7th pump opposite side of the 6th pump's pipe
harsh seal
do we know the max fuel consumption for fuel generator with and without shard?
sullen cloud
it's 15/min for running at 100%
harsh seal
so 6 fuel generator for 1 refenery with max oveclock
sullen cloud
don't overclock generators or refineries, just build more
barren elm
Yeah indeed, it's a waste of shards
I do wish they'd make putting shards on factory structures useful though
fossil compass
does anyone know about a AWESINE Sink point list?
sullen cloud
there was a guy in another channel yesterday claiming he compiled such a list
try to search for him
not sure if he posted it
wind spade
I think it changes over time
fossil compass
the total changes, but not the base values
wind spade
I asked for them two days back
fossil compass
@sullen cloud what channel and do you remember the @handle
sullen cloud
sorry, can't remember name nor channel. But he wrote that he compiled one and wasn't sure if he is allowed to post it
fossil compass
@tough eagle sweet mate, cheers
vital seal
that will be great to have, do items always have the same point value or do they degrade over time? (i know tickets require more points over time)
mystic hollow
From what I can tell items maintain their value
At least concrete still gives me 12 every time after letting it drop into the sink for 20 hours
vital seal
cool, thanks @mystic hollow
tough eagle
I did a quick calc to see what it takes to get 1000 then 2000 tickets increasing the requirement by 60% each ticket. Ummmm, that's a LOT of zeros. I think the heat death of the universe might come before you get everything in the shop
mystic hollow
You underestimate my ability to leave my computer running feeding it all the t7 shit for weeks on end
tough eagle
I dont think weeks or even months is going to suffice
I'm still at work so I dont have time to plug in values at this second but I'll put together a more concrete number later based on something like turbomotors
oblique hollow
i think ill specialize on compiling Hydrostatic data. Because everyone seems to love talking endlessly about the production / processing rate of fluids
prime pine
@wind spade hey greeny, you remember the BP for RIP you sent me yesterday
wind spade
did I miscalculate? 😄
prime pine
well
we got an access of 300 plates, but the screws is spot on
excess or whatever its called
oblique hollow
i hate to ask but what is a RIP
wind spade
reinforced iron plate
oblique hollow
oh ok
prime pine
im just wondering if we are insane or something 😛 we are standing here with 900 plates/min and apparently we only need 600 for 20 Assemblers
@oblique hollow probably the most important thing to mass produce in the game
oblique hollow
i know the plates are important, i just didnt know that acronym
willow flame
Not sure if others have worked this out yet, but 8m below the top of a water extractor is the maximum height a pipe can go up and have enough pressure to make it.
Without using a pump
wind spade
it says 10m on the extractor, so I assume the extractor is two meters higher than where it has the pipe connection
willow flame
As in the extractor is 10m tall?
barren elm
Is there proof that scrapper values actually change over time?
I just spent 3 hours feeding reinforced iron plating into a scrapper
It's still worth 180 per item
willow flame
I thought the values stayed the same, just that the cost of the coupon increased.
barren elm
That does line up with what I'm seeing in-game
@wind spade Is it possible that they meant that the value of the coupon changes, rather than the item?
wind spade
idk afaik they said "the longer you keep feeding it the same item, the less value you'd get"
nocturne flower
99% sure that in spite of that quote. It's still that an item always has the same point value. Just the points needed increase
I mostly got all my early coupons first 25ish just dumping motors I found at crash sites into it.
oblique hollow
the coupons get more expensive, the item value stays the same
earnest orchid
yeah, mixing items gives you coupons faster then the same item repeatedly
untold crown
so just a merger with supercomputers, heatsinks and turbomotors feeding one sink is the best?
or is there a list somewhere for points of each item
wind spade
well I asked for the coupon math a few days back, so when I'll receive an answer, I'll definitely share it 🙂