math-and-meta

[oblique hollow]

if you could circumvent the loading time with solid trucks too then this would make peak transport: always trains + trucks

[median heath]

Truck collision box is slightly wider than platform collision box if you rotate.

[oblique hollow]

hmm..... then you probably need to do it sideways, but further away from the train station to leave room for trucks

and also you should stagger every second station

[median heath]

Oh wait, it's getting better. I just need to count.

[median heath]

If you move the first one to be in line with the front of the station:

You don't "catch up" in space until the 10th pair.

So you're fine to have them not staggered as long as you have less than 11 platforms per station 😄

[oblique hollow]

what if you just

[median heath]

Actually wait.

[oblique hollow]

gray lines are pipes going above

[median heath]

That is still in front.

If you line the far left of the Fluid Truck Stop with the Station, you don't get the far right being in line with the very back of the Fluid Platform until you have 16 in a row 😄

[oblique hollow]

you could also flip every second fluid freight platform and unload from both sides with NO width penality

[median heath]

Yes.

But I'm saying you don't have a "width penalty" until 17+ due to how small the difference is.

Because the front Station gives you space to just shift over instead of alternating.
If someone would prefer that.

Pipes having "Straight" mode now makes it pretty damn clean too.

[daring bluff]

Question: I haven't unlocked trains yet, but is it possible to manage train throughput so I can run my factories at 100% efficiency?

[wind spade]

yes, trains can run at any amount you want

[meager kettle]

the flow indicator being in diffrent places is bothering me :p

[wind spade]

in the end they are practically the same as belts, they just move what you put into them

[meager kettle]

if you build tracks properly you can more or less run any amount of trains on them

[daring bluff]

And the game calculates the time it takes to get set resource at x/min to another station?

[meager kettle]

yes, the freight platforms show thruput in items/min

per platform

[dusky dust]

I know you didn't actually ask this, but fyi: it is also possible to do that with vehicles + drones. All of the available logistics types can be used to support whatever throughput you need. They've got various niches in which they all excel (or are conversely less ideal), is all

[daring bluff]

Alright, very straightforward, thanks :)

[daring bluff]

Hmmm, interesting, thanks for the tip! It's certainly come in handy in the future

[meager kettle]

note it shows the last delivery only. so the first one will usually be wrong, and if you're not consuming on the delivery end, then it wont be accurate either. If you dont have the production going, then a sink would let you see accurate thruput values after a few trips

[daring bluff]

So I just set up the train(s) to run for a bit and the what the throughput is like? (And if it's wrong I can just change it in the settings right?)

[oblique hollow]

generally, what you put into a train is what you get out.
If stuff backs up, you just add another car

[meager kettle]

if its wrong you can change it by splitting into two freight platforms instead of one, or you can use two trains instead of one

[oblique hollow]

And its not really something you adjust in train settings

the only train settings there are are

1. go to a station or not
2. wait at a station until full / empty or for x seconds
3. unload/load a certain item type or not.

thats it. the rest has to be solved with enough trains / cars / stations, etc

[daring bluff]

So for example: if I need 600/min of a resource from point A to B, having 1 train that can get there in in one minute will do the job, but if it would take 2 minutes I simply run 2 trains to make up for the lack of throughput?

[oblique hollow]

usually, yea

or you add another car to the train

[meager kettle]

can also split the 600 into two cars, 300 each and get more thruput

[daring bluff]

That'll work if it can get there in a minute, but not if it takes 2 minutes right? Or am I getting it wrong?

[meager kettle]

each freight car can hold 32 stacks of items

so if your round trip is long, having two cars would let you hold twice that amount

if the stack size is 100, then its 3200 items per car. at 600/min it would take 5min 20s to fill. but if you split it into two, then its 3200 items at 300/min so you now have 10min 40s to fill both cars

if the train roundtrip is 8 minutes, you wouldnt achieve 600/min in one car, but you would in two since its less than the 10m40s

having two trains with a car each is the same effect

but a little diffrent since you now have twice the load/unload times, so the thruput will be slightly less due to that

[daring bluff]

Wait, so splitting will make the time to load longer, not shorter?

[meager kettle]

it allows you to have more time to load so the train can take longer

you're still loading 600/min

but its 2x300

[daring bluff]

Ah yeah, that's what I guessed
Must've interpreted your phrasing the wrong way

[prisma kraken]

longer fill time = longer unfill time (assuming same rate) -> longer max trip length

[daring bluff]

By having 2 cars, I can load more resources, so when the train gets to its destination, it'll leave behind more resources, so travel time won't matter as much?

[meager kettle]

yea, if you're loading 600/min into one car, and the thruput you see on the otherside is like 500/min, it means the trip takes longer than the time to fill the car.

splitting it into two would mean both platforms are loading at 300/min each (total 600), but since your capacity in one car is 500/min then 300 is below that so you would get the full 300 per platform, for 600 total. same as you put in.

[midnight topaz]

When making train stations at what number of materials per minute should I made more than one cargo loader for the materials

[meager kettle]

if you need more than one belts worth, you make another platform

[daring bluff]

Alright, I think I've got a grasp on how it works now

Just before I go: is the unloading time fixed at 500/min or does it depend on certain factors?

[meager kettle]

500/min was just an example

it depends on the stack size and trip length

if something stacks to 200 instead of 100, you get double thruput

or potential thruput rather

[daring bluff]

Ah yeah, makes sense, so to know if a train's throughput is enough I simply wait to check if my factory doesn't shut off?

[meager kettle]

thats one way i suppose. i typically set it up, place a sink on the recieving end and let it run while i build the factory

then i can see the thruput, and decide if its enough, or need another train, or another car

like there i had a sink above each platform

[daring bluff]

To check the throughput you place a throughput monitor right?

[meager kettle]

no, that will show wrong

i check the freight platform

[daring bluff]

Ohh, it shows each unload on a graph no?

[meager kettle]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1499304826889310278/1499306786140979240/image.png?ex=6a04cc81&is=6a037b01&hm=27a018f9e79f8c5617bed7ea6ed3014d22e47023d7cebb2207513b7f1735afd4&)

[daring bluff]

Even better

That's way easier (and way less tedious) than checking if my factory shuts off

No questions anymore, thanks a ton! :D

[meager kettle]

no problem, have fun with trains :)

[daring bluff]

I will

[median heath]

There is a whole wiki page on this 😄

[steep tapir]

What is the best way to min/max building walls?

[median heath]

I don't understand the question 😭

[steep tapir]

I wanna build walls really fuckin fast

But I’m hitting a limit of my speed and the zoop limit

[median heath]

I would say that 10 at a time is ridiculously fast 🤷‍♂️

[vapid gorge]

oh Sev, I don't know if you're interested, but someone came up with a way to use buffers with gasses a while ago

it doesn't have much practical use but thought you might be interested 🙂

[median heath]

@vapid gorge Me?

[vapid gorge]

that's somewhat similar to what LadyHawk made a year ago or so

[median heath]

McGalleon and I had a good dm session about it and that's the design I came up with given the "rules" of gasses.

[vapid gorge]

ah fair, I'm pretty sure the original design on the server is from Lady Hawk who was messing about with things ages ago

[median heath]

Had 2 IFBs if I know what you are referencing.

[vapid gorge]

#1303275536704864256 message

[median heath]

You can shrink it to 2 regulars (right design) or use the one I made with 1 IFB (left design)

[vapid gorge]

#1298454344986923039 message

I think these were the convos

Well I'm glad you heard of it , thought it was something you might like 🙂

[viscid shadow]

does anyone have the list of alternate recipies that actually make more items than the vanilla? Like stitched iron plates with iron wire etc....

[pearl schooner]

So, what "breakpoint" were MK3 belts designed with?

270 isntead of 240 is too specific to just be an upgrade

[median heath]

No, because even your first example isn't one alternate making more.
It's a recipe combo that makes more.
And there are way too many alt combo paths to ever compile such a list.

[viscid shadow]

really? seems like it would be a short list

[median heath]

Quote from the devs on why it is 270:

"To screw with the math, lol."

[pearl schooner]

Pain.

[viscid shadow]

i mean there is this list https://www.reddit.com/r/SatisfactoryGame/comments/1fekus9/alternate_recipe_ranking_10_optimizing_for/?solution=5441329ddcb0e1e55441329ddcb0e1e5&js_challenge=1&token=bbbe4bf1c9a2b5160829c4be34da5861f3dd35b1d1f6fddeed34c35d15d952d1&jsc_orig_r=

but I dont know if that is actually more resources for less

[median heath]

Why? 270 is the only belt that actually aligns with how most items come in 45s.

[median heath]

This list is crap.

[viscid shadow]

ok so where is the good list?

[pearl schooner]

If you're trying to get the most items per minute, my suggestion: start pathing it out in Modeler

[median heath]

There is no good universal list because any list made has personal bias because there are no objectively better alternates aside from Cast Screw.

[median heath]

Odd way to spell Tools 😁

[pearl schooner]

I don't like Tools. Far too annoying and messy.

[median heath]

Cleanest most straightforward thing ever is annoying and messy.. 👍

[viscid shadow]

I mean,... I could have sworn I remember a list that was really good and a lot of the alt recipies actually make less because you skip a step

also isnt cast screws less screws for skipping a step?

[pearl schooner]

Not a fan of the spiderwebs over the 2D that modeler offers

[median heath]

You may have found a list where the author's personal bias matched your own?

[median heath]

Cast is the exact same conversion, just one less building.

1 ingot = 4 screws

[viscid shadow]

I must be thinking of that batch wire then

there was one that was obviously bad

[median heath]

🤔

[viscid shadow]

it's been a few years so I dont remember

[pearl schooner]

Oh yeah, steel screws. That's where that extra 30 from the MK3 help

[viscid shadow]

like steel screws... yah

[median heath]

Wire, Iron Wire, Fused Wire, Caterium Wire - all good.

[viscid shadow]

if you look at min/max of all resources on the map, all your copper should be going to sheets and you should make copper wire with iron

[median heath]

So now we're back to personal bias

Because also: min/max all resources -> to make what?

[viscid shadow]

circles in the ocean I guess

[median heath]

There is no such item.

[viscid shadow]

what?

[median heath]

To make what? = Item
You said "circles in the ocean"
There is no such item.

[viscid shadow]

there is no such item as "factory" either

[median heath]

Min/Max all resources to make Turbo Motors is very different than min/max all resources to make Super Computers.

So you have to specificy what item you're actually prioritizing before you can claim how any resource should be spent in that context.

[viscid shadow]

power

your base is a self licking icecream cone

[median heath]

Are you now understanding why there is no good list?
The devs did an amazing job making sure most of the game came down to personal choice.

[viscid shadow]

it exists to justify it's existance

I mean its a sand box game, thats literally the def of sandbox game

The factory must grow. Until it's Satisfactory

[median heath]

If you know this, asking for where the universal good list is doesn't make sense.
Because you would therefore also know no such thing exists.

[viscid shadow]

what ever dude just say you dont know

[median heath]

What part of anything I just said gave you the impression I am uncertain?

It is not "I don't know," it is "it does not exist, because it cannot exist."

[prisma kraken]

every one of those lists is kind of dubious... every recipe has a use in the game. some play a larger role than others, and there's some all-stars in the list, but anyone that tries to make a rated list is kinda dumb for doing so

[prisma flax]

@vapid gorge

[prisma kraken]

man, long pipes make me cry

[prisma flax]

anyone know why the 3 blenders arent letting rocket fuel into the pipes

[median heath]

Delete and rebuild the exit pipes?

Was anything in the Fuel Gens prior to the Rocket Fuel?

[prisma flax]

did that and no

[median heath]

What's the UI inside the pipe look like?

[prisma flax]

the pipe network is big. its supplying 100 generators but no gens are turned on or connected to power

[median heath]

Ok, that's the problem.

At some point either currently or in the past, your Turbofuel pipe connected to your Rocket Fuel pipe.

So everything in the RF pipes is dedicated to Turbo and won't let the RF in.

[prisma flax]

yeah i was confused by that as well

[median heath]

If you are 100% confident there is no current connection between Turbo and RF pipes, simply click "Full Pipe Network" and flush it.

[prisma flax]

bro that worked!!

[median heath]

But it would be worth following the RF pipes to see if there is an accidental connection or you will just have the same issue later down the pipe.

[prisma flax]

clutch. no connections that ive found. i have no idea how that happened

[median heath]

Pipes instantly reserve all of themselves whenever a fluid is connected.
Like I have a single pipe on my test world that circles the entire map, and if I put water in the left entrance, the right side immediately says 0 Water specifically.

So one time accidental connection that you deleted after saying oops would have done it.

Or, this is why I asked about the Generators. Because this is a common problem when upgrading setups from one fuel type to another.

[vapid gorge]

get rid of all the buffers

also whatever Sev said

[prisma flax]

yeah i built this setup for 100 gens but i think it runs 216 so i split it off

[vapid gorge]

unless you do very specific thigns with buffers gas behaves very poorly

and they also give you no benefit there

[prisma flax]

building 216 is a ton of work and im lazy

i only did the buffers because those werent working at first

hopefully the 25k extra power allows me to finish the game maybe and i can start a regular game not on exp. 1.2 with mods

[median heath]

Why build 216 when can build 90 @ 2.4? 🤷‍♂️

[prisma flax]

gonna have to go out and find all the slugs and sloop them. they are all around my alum base in swamp but i havent dedicated time to do that yet

[prisma kraken]

it'll be a while before mods work with 1.2

[prisma kraken]

balanced splitting for solid steel

(belting done in an 8m space under the machines)

[thorny marsh]

Linear programming is awesome. Here’s my plan for a 352 GW power plant, using 3300 oil and some other ingredients scattered around (forced to also create 1560 plastic + 1560 rubber).

[wind spade]

Could just use tools for that 😛

[thorny marsh]

None of them quite do what I want. For example, with SCIM’s Production Planner it’s quite difficult to control which recipes it may or may not use. (Just try to make it produce Ionized Fuel, and it suggests hand-picking snails, even if you enable all alt recipes.)

[wind spade]

Tools are just one planner. https://www.satisfactorytools.com/1.0/

[pearl schooner]

I forgor, can't do much with HOR beyong HOR>Fuel> Gens when you first unlock oil ref, right?

[thorny marsh]

Nonetheless, can’t beat the liberty of hand-coding…

[wind spade]

of course. Just saying that Tools also use linear programming 🙂 (I spent months making it work 😄 )

[pearl schooner]

Well, talking about the HOR from those

[thorny marsh]

No doubt! And thanks for contributing.

[pearl schooner]

Wait, I only need Fluid Packing to start with diluted fuel, right?

[thorny marsh]

Too bad it’s not possible to model the power usage accurately using LP.

Correct >Fluid Packing.

And Petroleum Power, of course.

[pearl schooner]

Oh, right... weird that's not part of Oil Processing, but enough shit is already locked behind it soooooo...

Yeah, being able to triple my power output from a starter polymers fectory is pretty poggy woggy

[thorny marsh]

@wind spade So how do I make it maximize some particular coal such as "from these ingredients, produce as much X as possible and exactly n of Y"? Nevermind, found it 😛

[blazing ravine]

Why is everything 0? Never had this problem with modeler before

[vapid gorge]

try their their discord

[oblique hollow]

Presumably because you dont get rubber and coke in the right ratio

Thus the production is impossible

Disconnect the line of coke

And compare

[lone jewel]

^

[median heath]

Giggle.

[vapid gorge]

@tribal wigeon what don't you understand about the diagram?

[tribal wigeon]

the left side makes sense, i dont really understand the two on the right

[vapid gorge]

do you understand these are 4 different examples of different combinations of reciopes?

[tribal wigeon]

how does using the normal 100% clock with 180m water give you 720m

[median heath]

I can make it really simple with just words, but you need to have the Sloppy and Electrode alts.

[tribal wigeon]

as in like recipes you get from the MAM?

[vapid gorge]

lets just look at this example

[tribal wigeon]

OHHH

[oblique hollow]

they use alt recipes

[tribal wigeon]

i see why it doesnt make sense then, i dont have those alt recipes so the math wasnt mathing

[oblique hollow]

the names of the recipes used are written in each green box

[tribal wigeon]

understood, apologies, and thanks

[vapid gorge]

the last image I linked is just the base recipes 🙂 do you get that one?

[median heath]

If you have the alts it is just "Feed 30% of the input with fresh, rest with recycled."

[tribal wigeon]

yes, this makes sense, im using the water to supply another machine already

[median heath]

I have not done the math on no-alts because I refuse to set up aluminium with no alts 😄

[vapid gorge]

great!
and just a tip, when you're processing multiple belts of bauxite, process them independently

[oblique hollow]

i did the math because i care

[vapid gorge]

don't link up the machines

[median heath]

Not enough to capitalize your i's though 😭

[tribal wigeon]

why?

[oblique hollow]

im a plumber not a grammaer teacher

i do not caeaeaeare

[vapid gorge]

because it can get really obnoxious to get multliple dependent fluid systems working together

[vapid gorge]

whenever possible, keep fluids in their own tidy little chunks

[tribal wigeon]

uh huh, bauxite isnt a fluid though, no?

[oblique hollow]

only link up things that actually NEED linking
if you can, try to seperate things

[vapid gorge]

the waste waters ARE though

and the fresh water

[median heath]

Fluid Priority System? You mean... Truck Stop? 😏

[vapid gorge]

as an example, this processes 600 bauxite per min

If I had another belt, I'd make another system next to it

[median heath]

Is this your build?

[vapid gorge]

yeah just a quick and sloppy thing I made for my 1.0 base

I use it as an example to keep thing split, and the solution refineries feed directly to the scrap

[median heath]

I see you adopted my habit of using smart splitters for everything 😛

[vapid gorge]

if they are smart splitters they were put there accidentilly xD
you sure they are?

[median heath]

That's what the gold bar down the corner sides means.

[vapid gorge]

welp! xD

[tribal wigeon]

this is what i have so far

[median heath]

For contrast in the same image. The top and the corners are different.

[vapid gorge]

this bit is concerning just because I can't see how you're merging waters

[vapid gorge]

no idea how that happened then xD

[median heath]

You embraced the better life 😛

[vapid gorge]

yeah that is a very unstable way of managing waste waters

[tribal wigeon]

because it can build up extra?

[unique cypress]

Or you could package the water to use a priority merger 🙃

[vapid gorge]

back flow can stutter the system

and it's a bit odd you ahve 2x mk2 pipes feeding fresh water into the system

how much total water does the system need?

[vapid gorge]

yeah valves don't solve that

the don't stop the sloshign effect past through them

[tribal wigeon]

wouldnt this solve my problem, limit my water pumps so the waste can run all of its water back into it?

[median heath]

Valves are for decoration only.

[vapid gorge]

nope, doesn't stop the sloshing

[tribal wigeon]

IT DOES SLOSH BACK AND FORTH I KNEW I WASNT CRAZY

[vapid gorge]

basically never use valve anywhere. They don't help, can cause issues, and there are simpler more reliable ways to manage flow

[median heath]

Well. It is water 😛

Sloshing and water go hand-in-hand hydrogen-on-oxygen.

[tribal wigeon]

so if i wanted to run 4 refineries making alumina and silica, that is enough to feed 2.5 or one and one at 150%, how should i manage that water?

the 2 refineries are making a total of 300m^3 a minute

do i just keep the waste water separate at a whole?

[median heath]

Yes.

[vapid gorge]

it's the most reliable way of doing things, and basically teh only way to do things later when there's waste GASSES

[tribal wigeon]

better?

[vapid gorge]

as long as it's clocked right? sure

[median heath]

Like, if may use the Sloppy+Electrode as an example because I know it:

You feed 30% input with fresh.
So if you were going to make 1 Refinery's worth, it is easier to split it into 2 and clock one down to 30% and the other to 70%.
Extractor hooks to the 30% one and recycled hooks to the 70% one.
Pipes never touch.

[vapid gorge]

but how much fresh water does that system need? that seems like over kill

[tribal wigeon]

yes, its clocked right, but now i dont have enough bauxite for it

[tribal wigeon]

it was the exact amount until i tacked off a machine

[vapid gorge]

oh youv'e merged 2 belts of bauxite as well.. geez no wonder

[tribal wigeon]

3

[vapid gorge]

look, it's not impossible to make work ,but if you get issues split them up

injection manifolds are probably something to avoid with looped back systems. Better to just keep them simpler

[tribal wigeon]

i see

well, sorta, i dont really get why it makes a difference now

[vapid gorge]

with fluids you always want to try to keep things in their own little sections and not intermingle them.

and yes the bauxite isn't fluid but the system heavily uses fluids as a whole

[tribal wigeon]

and im assuming since fluids like to slosh around and not stay consistent that it can back up my belts and cause other bottlenecks?

[vapid gorge]

its more that if one section has a hiccup it'll translate to allll the sections

and makes it that much harder to find.
So a small fuck up becomes a big fuck up

[tribal wigeon]

i honestly dont understand where that causes big issues with solids, just because i can see physically where they are and arent at and building up from, but ill take your word and hope that later experiences will show me the reason

it probably doesnt help also that im a visual/hands on learner, so im having a hard time visualizing the issues at hand

i do really appreciate the help regardless

[vapid gorge]

It mostly boils down to, in general, keep belts and pipe systems independent, but it's super much more important with any system that includes fluids

[median heath]

Water. Boils.
I see what you did there 😏

[tribal wigeon]

i see, i will keep that in mind as i move forward. could i then still use a single mine and have it split off to different refineries? just not use that injection thing

[marsh bear]

What recipes should I be looking out for? Do I use them ASAP, rescan, let them sit?

[oblique hollow]

if you arent sure, let em sit

you will have plenty of opportunities to pick, like when planning the next factory

[dusky dust]

Alternatively, IMO: If you aren't sure, flip a coin and pick one at random. All alt recipes are at least situationally useful, and if you already have some unlocked, you'll have more options right there at your fingertips instead of locked away in a MAM you might not think to check

Leaving stuff in your library IMO only makes sense for experienced players who already know what they want, and are used to working with the alts. For newer players, recipes locked away in the MAM are far more likely to just never get used

[marsh bear]

I suppose I am just getting fomo if I dont pick the "right choices"... are there enough drives that I will be able to hunt the ones I want eventually guaranteed? IE more drives than recipes

my first thought is to pick up caterium wire and put wire/cable/quickwire into dimensional depot from the pure caterium in the south of the starting area

[dusky dust]

Yep, there's more drives on the map than you can use, and you can even buy drives from the AWESOME shop directly later on in the game, if you don't feel like exploring

(Though they're a pretty expensive purchase)

[marsh bear]

and then I never have to think about it

perfect, as long as I can guarantee them eventually i will stop worrying

ty

[dusky dust]

The other bit of advice I'd give is that IMO it's well worth the time investment to do enough exploring to "keep up" with the drive pool. As you unlock new milestones and such, more recipes get added to the randomization pool. So if you are ever in a position where you want to look for one specifically, it's to your advantage to have already emptied out the pool somewhat. :P

(If you are ever looking for one specific recipe, that is one case where keeping them unredeemed in your library is useful, since the unredeemed drives will prevent two recipes from showing up on other scans)

[marsh bear]

I see the drive scanner in the MAM... its so tempting to just use an online map lmao but Im holding off

[dusky dust]

heh, yeah, the urge to SCIM can be strong. :D

(IMO the in-game HD scanner isn't super useful in the game; for a lot of the crash sites out there you're likely to spot them with your eyes before the scanner picks 'em up. But there are some which can be a little more hidden)

[median heath]

Good news: There is no "right choice" 🙂

[strong garden]

How many nuclear power plants should I try to make? Is there a good number?

[prisma kraken]

there's more drives available on the map than there are alt recipes. additionally, harddrives become purchasable in the awesome shop

[prisma kraken]

usually people start with how much uranium they want to make into power

[median heath]

Given that number varies wildly by clock speed without even considering the number of fuel rods you make...

[dusky dust]

How much power do you want to make? Set a target, see how "big" the factory is. If you can't stomach doing that much, lower your numbers a bit. :)

I will say that NPPs are quite nice to build in chunks of 10. I seem to think that chunks of 5 are pretty good, too. Machine ratios end up working out real nicely.

[heady dagger]

This ^ - there’s nothing else to do with uranium (other than nobelisks) so whatever you’d like to.

[prisma kraken]

builds for nuclear power size themselves out in chunks of 200, 250 or 300 raw uranium.

depending on the recipe chain you use, some give nicer numbers and integral numbers of generators

300 uranium will provide enough UFR's for 15 generators at 240% or 36 at 100% using the most efficient chain for 90 gw of power.

[median heath]

Hold up...

Is Steeled Frame actually the cheapest iron-only way to make Modular Frames?

[timber pivot]

It’s certainly nice for not needing screws

[median heath]

Iron Ingot/Frame-

Baseline: 24
Bolted: 25
Steeled w/Iron Pipe: 21.333_

^ This also shows Bolted is not as horrible as people make it out to be...

[timber pivot]

Bolted is certainly the fastest

[median heath]

Speed being an irrelevant metric, that term converts to "Bolted saves the most space."

But yes, and that is why I like it.

Now I want to make a list of iron-only things for comparison 😭

[pearl schooner]

Unhooking the 3xOC SS constructor from my main grid

[bleak pulsar]

If I’m using a pure oil at 360 per/min

I have 4 refineries making fuel with a 1.5 power shard boost using 90 per/min to make 60 fuel per/min

12 fuel powered generators
All the math adds up in my head but they aren’t staying on consistently. If anyone knows how to make it consistent please let me know

[median heath]

Do you have a mk2 pipe?

[bleak pulsar]

I don’t have them unlocked yet. I can probably get them in the next hour or 2

Nvm not 2 hours 😂 do you think that’s the solution though?

[ember fractal]

Yah mk2 pipes

[median heath]

If you don't have them unlocked, how are you possibly getting:

pure oil at 360 per/min
When your limit is 300?

[bleak pulsar]

That makes more sense 😦 my oil can only come in a 300 but I’m trying to use 360

Never thought that through
Thanks

[median heath]

I gotchu 👍

[pearl schooner]

Can someone give me the quick run down of how the recycled plastic/rubber loop works again?

[meager kettle]

plastic + fuel = double rubber. rubber + fuel = double plastic,

[cosmic quarry]

you do the max fuel recipes, then you basically convert fuel into plastic or rubber but looping them

[pearl schooner]

I know that much. I just forget if it's better to loop rubber into plastic or vice versa.

[meager kettle]

do both until you're out of fuel

[cosmic quarry]

you loop both since you will need a crap-ton of both by the end of the game

[pearl schooner]

Alright, I'll keep that in mind.

[median heath]

1 oil = 3 product, no byproduct.

[pearl schooner]

That's more of what I was looking for

[latent shard]

Hey ! I'm planning a big encased steel beam factory is there a better way ?

[mint coral]

Depends what you want. There is no issues with the way you are doing it. If this achieves your goals its good

What's the sulfer for tho

[latent shard]

Yeah I know but I wanted to know if there is a better strategies

[latent shard]

compacted coal to make the alternative recipe for steel ingot (compacted coal + iron)

idk if there is another better alternative recipe

[mint coral]

Ah,

Ya, thats fine. I personally value sulfur differently. This is not positive or negative just personal preference

[latent shard]

how would you use the sulfur for ?

[dusky dust]

In this game there's really no "better" or "worse." There's a lot of ways to do things, and what the "best" is for you will depend on your specific circumstance, where the factory is, how you value the various resources, or even just how you're feeling that day.

[latent shard]

i know

[dusky dust]

I may make the same resource five different ways across the course of a playthrough, as the needs of the factory I'm building change

[meager kettle]

wouldnt use sulfur for it tbh. use solid steel ingot + molded pipes + encased pipes

[latent shard]

in early game i picked the screw alternative recipe for a lot of recipe ; i regret a lot

[dusky dust]

The one definite suggestion I'd make is that IMO the solver at https://www.satisfactorytools.com/1.0/production is far superior to the satisfactory-calculator.com one

Trivial to see how recipes compare; every time you change recipe selections and such it'll re-solve the graph

[latent shard]

how interesting

specialy the solid steel

[regal heart]

hey maybe a dumb question
does the awesome sink take power constantly or only if it has items in it ?
wondering why my cons isnt constant even tho everything else should be 100% prod

[dusky dust]

When not sinking things, the Sink reverts back to 0.1MW usage

I'm not sure off the top of my head what the timing is like for that powerdown

[meager kettle]

only when sinking, 30MW

0.1MW when idle

iirc it starts going on and off if theres less than 5 items/min

[regal heart]

do trains also do this when they stop in a station ?

[median heath]

Train and Truck stations idle when there is no vehicle present, yes.

Drone Ports do not.

[meager kettle]

trains dont draw power when stationary, but the stations egts a power spike when loading/unloading

trains also use more power going up, and can generate power going down

[regal heart]

rip to my dream of having perfectly straight lines in the power..

might as well build geothermal now

[median heath]

That's unattainable either due to vehicles, Accelerators, or Converters.

[meager kettle]

wasnt gonna happen anyway

that orange line can go above the blue one :D

[regal heart]

seen that happen and was confused

[median heath]

Good LORD is this clean 😭

[marsh bear]

another clean one 😩

[median heath]

3 inputs v 1 input though

[marsh bear]

General power question: I am early game in the first spawn area, I know there is quartz to the East in the valley with the river. However I don't see any coal nearby.

I need power to mine quartz, and obviously I could just run a power line the whole way there, but this is a problem I am facing now that I know I will face on a larger scale pretty quickly.

So what solutions do I have for setting up new power over there? Do I just need to unlock more options? I am tier 5/6.

I am trying to figure out the logistics of having a truck carry both fuel to the valley and quartz out, such that I can set up a coal generator remotely. Am I on the right track?

[meager kettle]

just make power where you have resources and pull a power line there?

[marsh bear]

Like I said, I want to avoid just running power lines long distance

[meager kettle]

why

[marsh bear]

Because there are options like trucks, and I would have more fun using those than just running cables and conveyors everywhere

[median heath]

Even Power Towers with their extreme range?

[meager kettle]

then do that

[latent shard]

trucks suck to set in place and train are way too anoying to use ; i recommend just doing conveyor highway

[median heath]

Trucks do not suck at all.

[meager kettle]

you can run power towers and use vehicles, one doesnt exclude other. you can also use trains which carry power too

[latent shard]

personnaly i'm setting things up to use only conveyor highway it's crazy expensive but reliable ; i'm doing a 18 conveyor mk4

[marsh bear]

My guy, that is what I am trying to ask a question about, you don't have to reply if you don't have anything to add

[median heath]

@marsh bear I was being genuine when I asked if you are anti-Power Tower given how long their range is?

[meager kettle]

your option are to make power there or dont. why you getting mad i gave you an alternative?

[marsh bear]

Not anti power tower, I actually quite like them, just want to use all of my options as I am unlocking them so just wanted to ask how other people set up remote power

[marsh bear]

I'm not looking for an argument. But you responded to my question by basically saying "do what you said you didn't want to do" and when I said I think it would be more fun to use transport, you said "then do that" as if that isn't exactly what I am talking about. Not at all constructive and not an "alternative"

[median heath]

Trucks need to be paired with Power Towers to get their MW along their routes.
Trains handle remote power automatically by transferring it through the rail.

I too enjoy local power, but I have a global grid that handles anything that doesn't have coal/oil on-site and my local power simply adds to the global maximum.

[meager kettle]

you asked how we handle remote power. that would be power lines

[marsh bear]

I asked for alternatives to power lines. Please re-read my message

[unique cypress]

rails

[marsh bear]

And perhaps I wasn't as clear as I thought, but my interpretation of "remote" power is the exact opposite of power lines, which is all power connected to the same grid

[median heath]

Unless you restrict yourself to very specific build areas that becomes untennable.

[prisma kraken]

there's better coal if you explore around, a nice lake with some coal deposits northwest from the big field with stone pants

you can also shoot to the east for an even bigger pond with about the same amount of coal, though that's more of a hike

also, don't move fuel. run power lines

[steep tapir]

any idea why it radomly shuts off?

[meager kettle]

your power generation isnt stable, and it dips below consumption

[steep tapir]

yeah thats why it shut off

then i took out the second generator

still does it

[meager kettle]

gotta figure out why your power generation isnt stable

not enough coal, not enough water?

[steep tapir]

idk its getting enough of both

[meager kettle]

power graph seems to disagree

[steep tapir]

i have it set up so its enough

never dips below this

[meager kettle]

well thats one

for 375 you need two of those

also it says 77% which suggest its does dip below that

[steep tapir]

i have it at 250percent same with the coal and the water

[meager kettle]

yes, but a coal gen at 250% makes 187.5MW not 375

so you have to have two of them

and one of them is shutting off which kills your power grid

[steep tapir]

oooh

i forgot abt the other weird one i dont use

i think i found the culprit, thanks

[midnight topaz]

Is it just me or do yall ever plan out a factory on paper for fun?

[digital wing]

Sometimes i do this to help me understand the layout of it

[midnight topaz]

I do it to challenge myself with calculating it and if I have some free time. obviously I use websites sometimes, but I just enjoy it

[opaque iron]

Which kind of fuel is most effective for the small truck?

[strong garden]

Probably plutonium fuel rods

Is there a good number for water extractors - nuclear power plants like there is for coal?

[unique cypress]

depends on the clock speed but if they're the same speed then 2:1

[opaque iron]

That engine is capable of eating anything huh?

[strong garden]

Seems so

Idk if trucks can but drones can for sure

[midnight topaz]

I’d just play it simple with basic fuel if you need something more powerful than coal

Unless you’re going cross map or something like that

[opaque iron]

Just for personal use so I can run it for a long time I don't need turbo or rocket fuel for high speed just a long run time

[midnight topaz]

From what I can remember liquid biofuel has a good burn time

[opaque iron]

Though the best I could get right now is either normal or turbo fuel (early Phase 3)

[midnight topaz]

Lemme check liquid biofuels burn time

[midnight topaz]

Yeah i mean in phase 3 i don’t see why you’d need anything better than fuel

(Normal fuel)

[prisma kraken]

two per reactor

[dusky dust]

Yeah, normal packaged fuel is just fine for tractors (and trucks)

I tend to automate all packaged fuels, so for my own joyriding I tend to use whatever the most advanced one is. Fewer toppings-up [sic] of the fuel hopper. :)

And yeah, vehicles can take U and Pu rods for fuel, like drones can

[cerulean stratus]

What do you guys think about variable demand?

[outer vale]

of what

generally it just comes down to building for the average or the max

[cerulean stratus]

Like smart splitters and overflow mechanisms seem cool but the game doesn't challenge your logistics enough in that regard

[median heath]

🤔

[marsh bear]

I timed the trip and it took just over 5 minutes, but this suggests that it should take 2.66mins (57.21/21.46), am I missing something? Is a "trip" half a full loop?

[median heath]

Is that 1.2?

[cerulean stratus]

Seems to be

[median heath]

-> #satisfactory-experimental

[dusky dust]

You kind of have to engineer your own scenarios to let that happen, really. There's not much that doesn't consume quite steadily. Most variable consumption tends to be from folks setting up storage without overflow-to-sink, so stuff feeding those factories might have an opportunity to supply others once things fill up

[cerulean stratus]

There are cases actually. Like making smart plating

The demand goes down a lot in phase 3

[dusky dust]

Smart splitters and overflow are just peachy for sushi handling, though, if nothing else

[vapid gorge]

so sink it

[dusky dust]

My own sinks are never satiated! Those factories'll keep running if they know what's good for 'em. :)

[vapid gorge]

the whole game is based around static production and consumption

if that's not your bag I highly suggest a different game to be played

[cerulean stratus]

And what happens is not that you'll use the plates and the screws for something else, but that you'll use the iron for something else

[dusky dust]

But really that's just a special case of what I've already said: production without an overflow-to-sink at the end

[dusky dust]

If you play that way, sure. Me, I'm happy to just let them keep generating me coupons. :)

[cerulean stratus]

Oh it's just my 1250 hours talking

[cerulean stratus]

I challenge you to play without the sink
(You can use it for coupons but not for fixing your factory/storage)

[median heath]

My 4k hours would like to say I enjoy the static-ness 😬

[dusky dust]

I guess I just mostly see smart-splitter stuff as essentially Sushi Support (plus overflow for coupons), so it doesn't bother me that they may not be super applicable elsewhere (given how I build)

[dusky dust]

No thanks. :)

[cerulean stratus]

Why not?
You chicken?

[dusky dust]

My first playthrough was pretty sinkless for most of it, I think, so I've probably done most of a playthrough like that

[cerulean stratus]

Yeah normally the factory just goes asleep

Unless you're dealing with power!

[dusky dust]

I want nothing but green lights on my factories. :)

[cerulean stratus]

Can't sink polymer resin now!

[outer vale]

also can't do anything useful with it because that would also back up 😛

so the "challenge" is just go build more ISCs

[cerulean stratus]

Or turn them into plubber for other stuff

[outer vale]

which then also back up

if there's no sink, something's got nowhere to go

[cerulean stratus]

Ok, you can sink ballistic warp drives then

[outer vale]

then that'll just cascade back

lol go for it

[cerulean stratus]

Looking back at it it's kind of a eh challenge

So...

[dusky dust]

Speaking of not being able to sink things, I'm reminded that I still want someone to make a mod which allows you to convert any solid into a fluid (and vice versa). Liquid ADS, etc

Maybe rename all the solid versions to, for instance, Packaged Smart Plating

They made a start with the whole Quartz Purification thing but didn't go far enough

[cerulean stratus]

Does anyone else feel like you need a lot of rips early on? Like too many?

[outer vale]

not really

it's easy enough to get at least 5/min up and running

[cerulean stratus]

You need them for constructors, assemblers, smart playing

[outer vale]

from memory that's just a node's worth of iron

[cerulean stratus]

You need them milestones, mam, sink

You need them for belts

[outer vale]

belts are easy, split immediately into 2xmk1

[cerulean stratus]

You need them, big amounts of them, for making coal generators!

[outer vale]

sink is obviously optional

as for the rest, like I said they're not super expensive to make

[cerulean stratus]

I like it, not only for coupons early, but if you're a speedrunner you use it to buy stuff early

[outer vale]

so it's not difficult to get a decent supply

[dusky dust]

Their "slow" production does take many new players off guard. But especially with belt-fed bio burners and experience building bigger, it's not hard to build out a good amount even in phase 1

[cerulean stratus]

And why wouldn't you want to speedrun to coal power

[outer vale]

if you're going to speedrun then yes you'll need faster production, that's how speed works

[cerulean stratus]

I just mean I've been through phase 1 a lot of times
And I noticed I need a lot of rips around that time

Oh and you also need them for modular frames

And your power is around 15 biomass burners max

[steep tapir]

The BFC is built on impure nodes

https://tenor.com/view/disintegrate-gif-22469816

[prisma kraken]

unlocking coal puts a lot of recipes into the alt recipe pool. often i wait until i'm out of recipes to unlock before touching coal. if you set up enough burners and constructors to produce and consume a belt's worth of fuel, you really can hang out on biomass power without work for a while. the trick a lot of people miss is that more burners = slower burn from them all

[tranquil citrus]

Unsure if this is the right channel but looking for suggestions on how to upgrade this into a T3 factory. Kinda got "factory builders' block" atm. I also have plastic and rubber being made at a separate factory down the coast

[bleak pulsar]

How would I route this for 600 oil p/min to be for rubber and plastic and the other 1560 to be for fuel?

[vapid gorge]

huh?

[bleak pulsar]

I think I’m confusing myself tbh

[vapid gorge]

that's a lot more than 600 oil pm with those numbers

[bleak pulsar]

It’s 2160 total 😭

[vapid gorge]

1. process each pipe individually on it's own manifold
2. clock the initial refineries in such a way that you can group THEM to the right areas

always avoid mixing/splitting lines like this

[bleak pulsar]

I should’ve just added junctions to make them 600 and have a left the extra alone

[vapid gorge]

what oil pm are in the pipes you're bringing in?

[bleak pulsar]

It’s what I made on the picture is what will be coming through the pipes

[vapid gorge]

then it's easy right?

600 + 600 + 360 = 1560

the other 2x 300s go to your plubber

[vapid gorge]

right?

[bleak pulsar]

So i can do 20 refineries making fuel if i do 1.5x production on them? Right?

[vapid gorge]

uhhh depends on the recipe you're using

[bleak pulsar]

Basic

[vapid gorge]

well on a 600 pipe /40 , that's 15 refineries making fuel

oh sorry , 10 refineries

it's /60

for 1560 oil to fuel that should be 26 refineries in 3 groups

[bleak pulsar]

We’ll try that one

[vapid gorge]

just make sure to keep them in seperate. Keep fluids in their own little sections 🙂

oh also, if possible, you'll have an easier time with fewer junctions on the 600 lines. so have 1 junction feed 2 refineries when possible

[bleak pulsar]

I’m new to the game in general and fluids just blew me out the park

[vapid gorge]

if you keep them simple, they are simple

Point A to Point B, keep manifolds flat
if you want to keep things really after the first step design the system to use mk1 pipes

you can do almost anything with mk1 pipes and you'll get flow

and that doesn't really change yoru factory, it's just more but smaller sections

[bleak pulsar]

So this prob isn’t a good blue print based on keeping junctions to a minimum

[vapid gorge]

that's a flat manifold

it's level

[bleak pulsar]

I’ve routed all my pipe like this

[vapid gorge]

no reason really to bring it up that high though. As long as the input pipe is level with the input of hte machine it's fine

by 'flat' and 'level' I mean that along the whole length of hte section that feeds the machines is flat and doesn't have elevation changes within the manifolds

[bleak pulsar]

So if my comes go down into the manifolds it’s fine right

Because from the manifold they’ll be going down into the inputs

[vapid gorge]

you mean here ?

how they drop down?

[bleak pulsar]

Yes

[vapid gorge]

that's fine, all you want though is at least level, like this

the loop here also helps with back flow in higher flow systems

which you may need with a 600 flow pipe

[gritty jolt]

but why so high up..you risk needing pumps the higher they are...you only need to go up about 2 clicks

[vapid gorge]

pumps are basically free. Not a risk

[bleak pulsar]

My pipes are higher than the heights on the manifolds as of now

I will probably lower them I just had them higher incase I was going to produce p coke to run belts neatly

[gritty jolt]

you can get them above your splitters by putting them 3 click up i believe and the can run right under near the pipes...makes your footprint smaller

[bleak pulsar]

Going to adjust that then

[gritty jolt]

@bleak pulsar this is my blueprint design for my universal refiner blueprint...this particular one inputs and output from the left to right but it can be made to go either way.

[potent gorge]

does anyone have a link handy to a YouTube video that was about custom conveyor splits? It had to do with using smart splitters or priority splitters, and introducing junk into a line to customize the rate.

You would filter out the junk items and recycle it back while you pass the actual items through

[vapid gorge]

don't have feedback over flows on yoru belt, sort and sink when they get to that point

it's a really good way of clogging your whole system tryign to feed thigns back in

[prisma kraken]

similar to my standard way, just get the pipes 2 meters off the ground so stuff can pass under

[bleak pulsar]

@vapid gorge do you think I need an overflow system on 600 pm

[vapid gorge]

by over flow do you mean a loop?
a loop isn't really an overflow system, it's a back flow management system

and fresh water/oil tend to be more stable in that regard as to not need a loop, but they sometimes do.

these days I loop anything over 300 just so I don't have to go back and change thigns up later

[bleak pulsar]

That’s what I meant 😂

I ended up just looping
Did I do it right at least?

[spiral void]

anyone have a case for dark ion fuel? it looks kind of bleh on paper xwx

[prisma kraken]

the production chain is significantly simpler. if you're making it solely for the jetpack, it probably is better

[median heath]

I suppose if you want just IF without infinite power shards... But no, I cannot think of a reason.

[prisma kraken]

i have a feeling that dark ion has a higher net power yield that ion's barely-there yield

[pearl schooner]

Gotta love how just the leftovers of my first polymer factory instantly doubles my power output

[prisma kraken]

nah, yield really sucks with dark ion

honestly, on default settings, converting from rocket fuel to ion fuel gives you less power than you'd have by just burning the rocket fuel. really the only purpose for ion fuel is to break even on making dm crystal

[pearl schooner]

Pretty sure Ion Fuel is just a way to get rid of otherwise unsinkable waste product

[prisma kraken]

its the sink for synth power shards

[thorny marsh]

I have spent several days trying to come up with a setup that single-mindedly produces Ion Fuel energy using whatever combination of raw ingredients at whatever factors, and even if I don't count the energy spent by the machines, the calculations always come inferior compared to doing Rocket Fuel only.

[prisma kraken]

yeah, ion with the default recipe will kick off a surplus of DMR which can be useful if you're trying to balance out phase 5 production and are already making as many ai expansion servers as you can

[thorny marsh]

Only if I have an excess of diamonds (or time crystals) AND raw quartz (or quartz crystals), then the algorithm prefers Ion Fuel.

[prisma kraken]

yeah, pretty niche

[thorny marsh]

But if I have ingredients to make those, then they are better spent towards making Rocket Fuel.

[spiral void]

I want to turn the blue crater into a rocket fuel power plant and convert it over to packaged ionized fuel to power vehicles as needed, especially since I'm hoping to only use vehicles for logistics in my current playthrough. ionized is (for me) the best option before nuclear, though not wanting radioactive vehicles all over the map kind of makes fuel rods not an option

I can also convert 600 rocket fuel to packaged ionized fuel in the same amount of floor space that it takes to house the 58 overclocked generators to burn it, but I haven't compared the height of generators to particle accelerators yet xwx

[prisma kraken]

blue crater is nice for rf. everything you need is more or less right there and you have extra nitrogen up the hill if you want to build even more power.

[frosty owl]

I find it interesting when combined with sushi (eg: forced to do sushi without overflow)... Otherwise, it may just end up simply as a "ISC galore" kind of "challenge", as noted 😅

[prisma kraken]

i think tempered caterium may be the most underappreciated of the new 1.0 recipes

[bleak pulsar]

Is there something I should be making with polymer resin? (I don’t have any alternates that use it) should I just sink it? I’m on tier 5 & 6

[wind spade]

do you need it now? if not, sink it

[bleak pulsar]

Not for anything that I can think of

Besides plubber but just going to make that with the basic recipe with heavy oil residue

[pearl schooner]

You can make it into Residual Rubber or Plastic

[cerulean stratus]

Extra plubber is good

[wheat nymph]

I can't figure out what to use the alt "nitro rocket fuel" for. What does it work well with?

when I use diluted fuel as input, I turn 40.5 oil into 150 rocket fuel using the normal rocket fuel recipe. Or using the nitro rocket fuel, I turn 37.5 oil into 150 rocket fuel. So it is a tiny bit easier on the oil and it gives me a bit more compacted coal but who cares about compacted coal anyway

or is there some goated use of compacted coal I am not seeing?

[unique cypress]

the point of nitro rocket fuel is the simplicity. that's basically it
default rocket fuel, especially with compacted coal recycling, is much cheaper (except the oil)

[bleak pulsar]

I’m sure I’ll need it eventually so I’ll have to change it all. The power is the goal here lol

[wheat nymph]

ok thanks, yeah that makes sense

[wheat nymph]

care to elaborate on the compacted coal recycling? This is not what you had in mind, right?

cause the version on the bottom does nothing except use more power

oh wait, I am blind

[unique cypress]

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/1.0/production?share=JvzVQk5Zc4h2dMgVgNbz

[wheat nymph]

yeah I forgot the refinery for rocket fuel needs compacted coal itself

oh you use a different recipe alltogether

what's the most economic fuel for trucks etc.?

[vapid gorge]

economic in what sense?

[wheat nymph]

very good question

[vapid gorge]

I use plutonium rods.

that means the trucks essentially run on garbage

[wheat nymph]

right now: in terms of power

that is also an interesting idea lol

[vapid gorge]

also not a useful question on that aspect sorry.
Unless you just mean most power per unit - then its plutonium rods

[wheat nymph]

I haven't done any nucular in this save yet tho

[vapid gorge]

Time to get to work I guess

Honestly Coal is kinda a garbage resource, it's all over the map and you don't need THAT much steel. So burning coal in trucks would also e like burning trash

[wheat nymph]

well I mean, how much kWh do you have to produce to get 1 km of mileage out

[vapid gorge]

I think it actually depends on how often the truck has to accelerate. I've heard fro ma few people it only burns when accelerating

[wheat nymph]

oh really?

Also, how did that change with the vehicle paths update in 1.2?

[vapid gorge]

look, it's what I've heard. It may not still be the case in 1.2 even if true

but also ... it's really doesn't matter. They use very little fuel

far less mwh than trains for example

[wheat nymph]

I remember with higher tier fuels the trucks would drive / accelerate faster? Is/was that true? How is truck speed with the vehicle paths?

true true

[vapid gorge]

drones go faster - I don't think it's true with trucks

[wheat nymph]

oooh I might have confused that then

[vapid gorge]

but burning P rods in vehicles produces no waste

[wheat nymph]

wait, drones take other stuff than batteries??

[vapid gorge]

and 1 rod can last like ... 7hrs?

look at the wiki page, lists the many fuels.
I think it was a silly change personally

they made batteries obsolete

[wheat nymph]

ok so it used to be batteries only

phew

yeah that made batteries obsolete pretty much

what a shame

[vapid gorge]

they made a lot of poor design choices near the end. But oh well

[bleak pulsar]

@vapid gorge it’s coming along, but as for my fuel generators do I make a tower or a flat platform. I know you said try to keep liquids flat

I need 52 of them

[vapid gorge]

keep it flat yeah 🙂

[bleak pulsar]

Might move them to behind the whole thing then more room to work with

[digital wing]

what would be the best way to go about the pipes for this? I produce too much water to fully recyle all of it back into the aluminum, so i need to use some of it which is fine. do i just underclock to the extent that the number of machines makes my pipe work easy?

or do i just use more bauxite and not sloop at all so i can recycle everything lol

[vapid gorge]

best way to manage it is to not sloop your scrap

[digital wing]

i thought so lol

[prisma kraken]

you can always get rid of the water in coal generators

often that ends up being easier than importing limestone/iron

[digital wing]

i just wont sloop the scrap and bring in more bauxite/coal its no biggie

easier solution than having to overcomplicate fluids

id rather just be able to use easy vip junctions and save myself the headache lol

[prisma kraken]

fair 'nuf

[vapid gorge]

just be aware vip junctions are based on an exploit and are not very reliable at best

[wind spade]

save yourself the headache and don't mix fresh and recycled water

[digital wing]

ye i know but good looking out

[digital wing]

its not a headache

[wind spade]

it is more headache than not mixing things

[unique cypress]

I mean the same design is gonna work the same always
just gotta find one that works

[vapid gorge]

for example, absolutely foolproof design , keeping the fluids split

blue is fresh, red is waste

[digital wing]

Yeah i know its not difficult lol

Why is it whenever someone was a preference to do something their way, everybody is intent on convincing them to do it their own way

I want to use vip junctions, i wasnt asking for anybody’s input on that decision lmao

Cobalt already answered my question in the first response

[vapid gorge]

a lot of people use unreliable options w/o knowing and then bitch about it.
Now if you bitch about it we can point out that you knew about the problems going into it

[unique cypress]

"unreliable" my ass
The only time a VIP didn't work was when I built it wrong (as in connected the pipes completely wrong wrong)
Meanwhile, the only time I tried the split setup, it broke because nobody ever says you need an overflow to a sink for the scrap or it deadlocks. VIP doesn't need that

[frosty owl]

Just throwing out alternatives: I like to sloop it in a way that the whole system makes as much water as it consumes (so it runs without any water input once it's kickstarted)

[frosty owl]

Tbf, there's also the fact that it exploits a bug, so there's technically a chance of it not working anymore anytime the game is patched... 👻

[digital wing]

Ill have to crunch the numbers on this, after the changes ive made itll needs like 1 overclocked water gen and the rest will be recycled

[wind spade]

you know that basing reliability on just your save and not anyone else's isn't ideal 🙂

[unique cypress]

* 4 saves across 4 different versions (+2 experimental)

And not just mine, actually
The first one was my friend's world

[wind spade]

still is "your playstyle" and "your build order" and things like that

[prisma kraken]

how many of those playthroughs did experiment with removing the VIP and seeing if things still functioned?

[meager kettle]

if you know how to build vip junctions, they're pretty reliable. altho since they function based on a bug, if css ever fix it, could break errything

[dusky dust]

Split setups do not need overflow-to-sink, unless you've specifically built it in a way where you're not actually fully processing some part of the chain for whatever reason. ie: why wouldn't you just process 100% of the scrap?

[prisma kraken]

the point i was getting at is saying they work may be the function of the rest of the factory being built correctly and the VIP doing nothing

there's a lot of cargo cult thinking with pipes and i'd like to stomp it out

[dusky dust]

99% of the pipe traffic on this server is folks coming in with pipe problems which are (in effect) caused by how they're building pipes. There's nothing wrong with continuing to recommend the simplest, most foolproof ways of building.

[prisma kraken]

which is build the simplest pipe network 😉

anyway, i don't have time right now to get into debates, but in my travels and experimentation, i've come to believe that vip's don't really do anything

[unique cypress]

probably none of them but I sincerely doubt any of it would function when I was dumping fresh water into the low priority side of the VIP without any consideration
it'd fare even worse than the designs where people just downclock the extractors to the correct amount, because I wasn't even doing that

[unique cypress]

a design that only works at 100% utilisation is not a good design

I planned for the scrap to be used 100%, but I forgot one belt in a totally unrelated part of the factory which meant I was only getting 90-95% of the diamonds I planned for

which meant the aluminium was also only 90-95% utilized. and it deadlocked

[dusky dust]

I mean, in the end it's "process your byproducts"

I don't see how "I screwed up the build" becomes "the plan for the build was bad"

[unique cypress]

the point is that a VIP can deal with this situation just fine

[dusky dust]

I didn't blame my concrete production when missing a belt nearly made my uranium rods run out, a few playthroughs ago

[unique cypress]

so if another design can't, then it's not a comparable design

[wind spade]

afaik properly built loopback works just fine even when production stops

[unique cypress]

if I used a VIP, the build would've been working at 95% until I fixed it

not 0

[meager kettle]

they all can handle stops in production if built correctly

the reuse, recycle and vip

[unique cypress]

I think the split loop can handle it if you use prio mergers

Or build the manifold with the recycled being merged last

I think I built it the other way so the scrap made from fresh water was used first

[frail cradle]

Do I need to do this for gases?

[vapid gorge]

looping? often with high flow pipes yes

[frail cradle]

thank you

[wheat nymph]

other recipes are working, why doesn't this?

all base recipes are enabled, all buildings etc

oooh it's listed as alt recipe, nvm

because you need to research it?

[wind spade]

yeah, it isn't really an alt nowdays, but there was a lot of confusion on what is and isn't alt back then, so recipes gotten through HDDs were marked as alts

[wheat nymph]

• recipes gotten through mam I guess

[wind spade]

well those were still gotten through HDDs - you have to pay HDD to do the research

[wheat nymph]

I suppose

I am making a half assed spread sheet showing how much MW of power you need for common types of fuel to keep a truck running for 1 minute and to my surprise packaged rocket fuel is the winner so far with 1.20 MW vs. packaged ionized fuel which is at 7.05 MW

this is using base recipes where possible

oddly enough, regular packaged fuel clocks in with 5.22 MW and packaged turbo fuel with 4.23

so you'd think with higher tier of fuel will be more efficiency but ionized fuel is rather expensive to make and is used up almost as quickly as rocket fuel

I thought ionized fuel was supposed to be a very efficient fuel

[dusky dust]

Yeah, Ionized is super Rocket Fuel hungry; for most folks it generally makes more sense to just burn the RF direct. :)

I believe with strategic slooping you can make it pretty good, though it still feels to me like you could've just spent the sloops on the RF steps instead

[wheat nymph]

uranium fuel rods are super efficient when you feed your trucks with them

[dusky dust]

Sevrahn could probably give you some tips on Ionized deployments, I know he's quite fond of what he did there

[wheat nymph]

somehow I can't make TOOLS tell me how much plutonium fuel rods use 🙁

[dusky dust]

You need to go to the "inputs" tab and tell it how much Uranium Waste you've got

NPPs don't have traditional "recipes" so the current sftools doesn't solve "through" the plant

[wheat nymph]

I see, ty

can I tell tools to include miners?

otherwise coal is free 😛

[dusky dust]

sftools doesn't give you a "physical" layout; it doesn't care about miners/extractors/belts/splitters/mergers/etc

It leaves all that up to the Pioneer as an implementation detail

[wheat nymph]

well I want the power consumption of the necessary buldings

[dusky dust]

How you get your resources is entirely up to you

[dusky dust]

And that would necessarily depend on the nearby available nodes, their purity, your personal desires to overclock, etc, etc.

[wheat nymph]

true

[dusky dust]

Regardless: the datapoint you want is not provided by sftools. :)

[wheat nymph]

I should have started with coal because now I already got these other fuels figured out - or so I thought

and turns out their power requirements are moot because sftools does not factor in miners

[dusky dust]

I mean, miners tend to be a pretty tiny percentage of any factory's requirements

The numbers you get out of sftools aren't moot just because you need to add in some extra to include miners

[wheat nymph]

I wish I could export the calculations from sftools to modeler

[wind spade]

not really possible given there's no standard for sharing data between different tools.

[wheat nymph]

I wish such a standard existed

[wind spade]

not really viable either

[wheat nymph]

what if I wish really hard?

[wind spade]

SFTools don't store the result, they calculate result based on your request. So if you shared anything from other calcs, Tools couldn't show it.

[wheat nymph]

no I want the other way around

[wind spade]

then you're exporting just the request, not the result

[wheat nymph]

but I want the result

[wind spade]

which is not exportable

SFTools only export request

[wheat nymph]

I know

that's why I wish it did 😄

[dusky dust]

I'm sure someone sufficiently motivated could make use of greasemonkey or whatever to export the "result" data, and if sufficiently motivated could figure out a conversion into modeler's format. :)

[wheat nymph]

I was thinking about it

[dusky dust]

It's all just data in the end; a transform theoretically exists. :)

[wheat nymph]

but I know myself

[dusky dust]

The question is how much effort is someone willing to put into such an endeavor

[wheat nymph]

I'll be too burnt out from my dayjob to do more programming in the evening

[wind spade]

(especially given new tools will work completely differently)

[dusky dust]

Honestly providing a "results" export wouldn't be a terrible idea for a feature, for use by anyone motivated enough to want to try to import into other tools. Though if you didn't also provide a way to import the results then 99.9% of the userbase would just be confused by it, so presumably not worth the effort. :)

[wheat nymph]

similar tools for factorio provide an export to CSV so there's that

would be nice for the spreadsheet warriors

[wind spade]

how would you export directional graph to CSV in a reasonable way so that user doesn't get confused? 🤔

um, sorry, wrong reply ping
@wheat nymph ^

[wind spade]

the problem with importing result is that... it's not really possible 😄 any change in request recalculates the response. current tools just aren't designed well (and I know that), hence why the rewrite

[dusky dust]

That's more or less what I'd meant by "99.9% of the userbase would be confused." :D Like just providing a "raw" export would let motivated hackers kludge up a translation layer if they want (possibly -- I admit I have no idea how the lp_solve results come back), but it's almost certainly not worth the effort to do anything else with such an export

Oh for sure

I'm also not even advocating for such a feature, just that there's not zero use case for such a thing. :D

I'm essentially "someone is wrong on the internet!"ting myself. 🥳

[wheat nymph]

let me see if I can find that factorio one again so you have an example to look at

[wind spade]

with new Tools I plan to have some more useful exports/imports. And I plan to make the format opensource so that other tools can use it. Whether or not it will be used won't depend on me though

[dusky dust]

Yeah, 100% fair to leave that kind of thing to the community

[wheat nymph]

here: https://factoriolab.github.io/spa/list?o=automation-science-pack&v=11

there is an "Download as CSV" button

it gives you the layout in tree form, not graph form

basically the way it is shown on that website too

[wind spade]

well that's the problem, SF graphs aren't trees

[wheat nymph]

you mean SF trees aren't graphs

wait

[wind spade]

no, they aren't trees, they are graphs

[wheat nymph]

I need coffee

[wind spade]

(and yes I know a tree is a type of graph 😛 )

[dusky dust]

Directed but not acyclic. :D

[wind spade]

but you get what I mean

[wheat nymph]

yeah yeah

actually

that webapp supports satisfactory, too:
https://factoriolab.github.io/sfy/list?o=modular-frame&v=11

and it does model things as graph:

it gets around the graph/tree issue by explicitly stating where things go to and where they come from in the tabular format

[median heath]

This is... you have invented something that ranks below Modeler for me now 👀

[wheat nymph]

I did not make this lol

[hardy lake]

you just gotta use chatgpt as an experience, look at him doing load balancers like a professional

[quick gorge]

Ew, AI

[river night]

There is so many errors in there lol

[ionic sapphire]

ah yes

15 + 15 = 24

[quick gorge]

I felt like I was getting brain damage just looking at it

[frosty owl]

Don't you mean 24 = 12 + 12 + 12?!
SMH my head
||Reference material: #math-and-meta message||

[quick gorge]

AI is a cognitohazard, change my mind

[hardy lake]

it's like those cursed pictures that just gets better and better the more ou look at it

[wind spade]

why on earth would you use AI for this

[dusky dust]

Autocomplete is famously good at math and logic

[hardy lake]

I wouldn't, I'd use excel, but was kinda curious how it would deal with a problem that a 10 yr old toddler could solve

[ionic sapphire]

if only this was a solved problem

oh wait

https://icemoonmagic.github.io/Satisfactory-Splitter-Calculator/

[dusky dust]

This isn't actually directed at you, Aruffin; just a general observation: I'm lowkey exhausted by how frequently I see something terrible and wrong posted by someone who was "curious to see" how generative AI would deal with a problem that it's clearly going to be absolute shit at. Like, yeah, yay, you boiled another few lakes to show yet again that generative AI is as smart as a pebble, yay.

c'est la vie; this is our Terrible Universe™.

(sorry, I should probably go take a walk! :D)

[hardy lake]

Dw, I sadly, already got used to having "professional vibe coders" enter my team and then taking 10x longer to do what they r supposed to do irl, it just goes into a spiral where you just become the michael jackson from the popocorn meme

[ionic sapphire]

vibe coding is the only kind of coding i would be able to do

which is why i dont code

or well, rarely

[hardy lake]

I mean, it's all fine, as long as you understand what the fuck you are given, otherwise it just generally takes u longer to do stuff than an actual technical person

[dusky dust]

It generally takes practice, enthusiasm, and time to learn new skills like programming. I'm of the opinion that practically anyone's got the ability to learn it if they're willing to put in the effort (and have the means to support doing so, of course). Saying "oh, all I'd be able to do is use AI tools" is just being defeatist. You could learn to code, it's just a process.

Like any complex skill, it can certainly be discouraging when you're starting out because there's a breadth of knowledge you've gotta take in, but that's where the enthusiasm + time/practice comes in

(And of course not everyone wants to learn any given skill, and that's valid too! Not trying to skill-shame anyone. :D)

[steep tapir]

Bro the clanker adds the two together then Immediately separates them again 😭

[frosty owl]

Meanwhile, actual people...

[median heath]

Whaaaa?

[midnight topaz]

Except for the last part it was doing good

[midnight topaz]

Honestly at least for me I just collect with one pipe and disperse with one pipe if possible (pipe manifold)

[hardy lake]

manifolds r just superior imo

[midnight topaz]

Even if it’s three machines and I can just use a splitter I use a small manifold

[median heath]

Sushi manifolds being the most superiorest! 😏

[regal heart]

what do nyall thimk

[median heath]

An interesting production. Very much want to see the build!

[prisma kraken]

there is only one way in which a manifold beats balanced splitting and that is with ease of building

[hardy lake]

ease of build, ease of expansion, not bothering with load balancer if u got uneven amounts

[prisma kraken]

even a 'balanced' split will overflow like a manifold if inputs aren't exact.

also, load balancers != balanced splits

a load balancer also has the property that all inputs are consumed in equal ratios as their fed to the outputs. that's different from metering everything to machines to get the exact amount in real-time

[hardy lake]

You get teh same from a manifold, once it fills up 😐

[vapid gorge]

seems solid!
when you do the diluted packaged fuel though I recommend making small units of packager > refinery > unpacakager , then loop back

keeps things much simpler for yourself

just need like 1/2 a stack of empty containers and you can include that in the blueprint

[tranquil ember]

I'm gonna take all the bauxite from these nodes, does 5100/min sound right or is my math wrong on the output

*mk3 miners and shards

2 pure, 3 normal and 3 impure

[digital wing]

2 pure is 2400, 3 normal is 1800, 3 impure is 900 which = 5100

[tranquil ember]

Thanks

This is gonna be a big setup

[frosty owl]

There is only one way to discover the amazing feeling of seeing every Refinery in a production line working in perfect sync

[midnight topaz]

Yep and the it blinks yellow cause recycling water doesn’t want to work

[vagrant hinge]

Demand for a nuclear power plant (full recycling, no waste)

IT'S SO MUCH ,WHY😭

[unique cypress]

How much uranium? All?

[wind spade]

Because you're making too much 😛

[vagrant hinge]

YES

2100

[unique cypress]

Sam seems rather low for that XD

[vagrant hinge]

I Had to use count im somersloops if i hadnt it would be 10080/min

Soooo 120 left for the whole world i think

[wind spade]

Realistically you won't need more tham half of that probably

[vagrant hinge]

Why?

I included all of steps for ficsonium so the nuclear pasta too

[unique cypress]

That's still low
112 fics costs 12k at minimum (without sloops)

[wind spade]

Because building a factory that consumes that much power is pretty hard

[vagrant hinge]

Thats a joke right? Please don't say that i miscalculated somfing

[vagrant hinge]

Better to have more then not enough

[wind spade]

Full map processed doesn't need that much

[unique cypress]

Nope
https://www.satisfactorytools.com/1.0/production?share=9ukx4eoPND7p2vIngBwC
It's 12k just for the trigons
And you can source DMR without SAM so you technically don't need more

[vagrant hinge]

Oh and Quick question where the somersloops will be better on the trigons/ficsite ingots or r. SAM

[unique cypress]

I think they're best in trigons

But it's been a while since I calcd that

[vagrant hinge]

Why is there so much ficsonium fuel rods?

I got this much

[unique cypress]

It's max power

1.47 TW

[vagrant hinge]

Ohhh i got 1,14...TW

[unique cypress]

That doesn't make sense with <10 Ficsonium

[vagrant hinge]

I went for alternative recipes for some of the things

[vagrant hinge]

Why?

[unique cypress]

Yeah no 18.9 plutonium rods is 94.5 ficsonium rods

Unless you sink some plut

[vagrant hinge]

Why did you say it! Now i have to check

There is a problem.....
I found the Mistake....

Its now 10710 SAM

....and 63 somersloops

Then new question...how can i cut SAM down

At least I fixed it now, not when I had already had the power plant meltdown.

[unique cypress]

The plan I sent uses 50 converters for ficsite

Overclocking and slooping them all is 10

So 20 sloops

And SAM is cut in half from 12k to 6

But you still have to source 7k DMR from a samless source

I.e. oscillators or power shards

[vagrant hinge]

What?

How 7k DMR? For what?

[unique cypress]

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/1.0/production?share=u5GuzEm9GZlSjWvlbfVn

[unique cypress]

For ficsonium

[vagrant hinge]

Why so much

[unique cypress]

Because that's how much it costs?

It's expensive af

[vagrant hinge]

I did somfing wrong didnt i?

[unique cypress]

Each ficsonium rod costs 60 dmr

Well, more, but you get some back

[vagrant hinge]

So ficsonium uses 200DMR i get 100 back from ficsonium fuel rods

So either im retarded or idk

Are loops used for somfing else or just Doubling production and the alien power augmenters

[unique cypress]

3 for research and the rest is just for this

[vagrant hinge]

.....i think i will loop the shit out of the trigons Just so I don't have to count it again

How much loopes uses the machine that can make ficsite

[unique cypress]

2

And I just checked, ficsite ingots are better to sloop than trigons

At least if you're making them from aluminium

[vagrant hinge]

Im gonna

If i want to loop i need...105 loops just for that😭

[unique cypress]

Why

You need 20 for 112 ficsonium

If you put them just in the ingots

[vagrant hinge]

Never mind 84

63 for trigons 21 for ingots

I can bring it down from 10080 SAM(just for trigons) to 2520🎉

[vagrant hinge]

Not with my plans, i found why that was do high

If i used only dark matter for dark Crystals it would o be over 6k just for that

I use the one with time Crystals

Much more complicated but cheaper in the end

[wheat nymph]

what's the use of the Dark-Ion Fuel Alternate? It seems to use about the same amount of power

if combined with other alts it uses a lot less oil but I wonder if that isn't mainly due to other alts

[unique cypress]

it's good if you want a bit for the jetpack and that's basically it

maybe for drones/vehicles too, but then it starts getting expensive

[wheat nymph]

sweet, ty

is it even a good idea to use ionized for anything else?

it's so expensive, I wonder if it makes sense to use for power production

[unique cypress]

default ionized works as a sink for power shards

[wheat nymph]

ah yeah that makes sense

[unique cypress]

and as fuel for jetpack and vehicles ofc

[wheat nymph]

mhmm

[quaint birch]

Are there websites to plan a megafactory, make a plan of it ? i don't really like the idea of building something massive on the move

[vapid gorge]

huh?

[quaint birch]

i want to plan how my megafactory will be organized (different sections, parts needed for each one of them, etc) but like is there website to make plans ? or do i just use paint

idk how to make it clear mb

[vapid gorge]

paper for the basic parts of the layout

I use a spread sheet and use the cells to lay it out in more detail

[quaint birch]

good call boss

[vapid gorge]

it would take you AGES to use a program to do the details and at that point you might as well plan it in the game by building it

[quaint birch]

i'll stick to paper tho

[quaint birch]

yeh true true

[wind spade]

best tool to plan such things is a software called Satisfactory

[prisma kraken]

it makes much less power

[quaint birch]

will look into it thx dude

[wheat nymph]

it does?

[prisma kraken]

well, the amount of ion fuel it yields is much less than the base recipe which means you fuel less generators with it; that in turn is less power

generally, think of ion fuel as endgame vanity project. the effort you put into it doesn't really give any benefit

when you tally up the power cost of all the colliders and encoders, ion really isn't very good, but its cool to make and the fuel is great in the jetpack & vehicles

[hushed needle]

I simply get all the materials and start building, if i dont like it, i start over, continue till i do like it, never taken more than 3 iterations to get to a likable spot

[median heath]

The classic, standard way of all aesthetic builds:

• Build.
• If not happy, delete and rebuild.
• Delete until happy.

[prisma kraken]

supplementing what i just said, here's what a build of turboblend->default rf->ion looks like in terms of resources, power used & produced.

if you just stopped at rocket fuel instead, this is what that looks like

i used the oil based diamond recipe for the calculation, it varies a bit based on which recipe(s) for diamond & quartz crystal you end up using

where you might make a case the other way is that if you have 10 fueld APA's, you'd be multiplying your power 4x at which point that extra input power makes a lot more output power

[wheat nymph]

thanks for the details 🙂 I appreciate it

[prisma kraken]

there's a few ways ion fuel can end up being useful, but it isn't as simple as 'just convert your rf into if for more power'

[marsh bear]

how does rounding work on underclocking; if I am targeting 33.3333....% do I just do 3.34 or does 3.333 internally adjust to exactly 1/3? If I do 3.33 will it eventually undersupply every 100th/1000th etc... does it matter?

[dusky dust]

In the end it sort of doesn't matter, but the game will not give you a perfectly-precise 1/3d

You'll either technically have an overrun or underrun every 10k cycles or so

Unless you're the sort who gets bothered by it, it's not really worth worrying about, though. :)

[frosty owl]

BTW, typing "1/3" is accepted by the UI too

[dusky dust]

I tend to round it in whichever way makes sense. Like if it's a consumer I'll round up to 4

Yeah, was about to mention that too; can put in math, and I think the value technically stored will end up being a little more precise than if you put in the decimals yourself

(though in this case you'd actually want 100/3) :)

[prisma kraken]

if you enter in 100/3 to the percentage box, you'll get the right clock rate to max precision, but better is figuring out the ratio to enter into the item/min box. i find that gives more exact results in oddball cases

[prisma kraken]

100/3 for clock speed

[marsh bear]

If I dont underclock at all and let the final machine throttle the conveyors feeding it, will the miners consume less energy once the belts are full and they have nowhere to "put" the ore?

Or do they continue to consume 100% energy but not output 100%

[wind spade]

they consume 100% of power when they are running

[meager kettle]

Would keep turning off and on. When it's on it would use full power, when off 0.1mw. it wouldn't really give you more useable power. Would just create an power graph going up and down. Underclocking would keep it on all the time and consume less power, and the saving in power would be useable.

[prisma kraken]

they run at 100% until their buffer is full, then stop for a bit and then start again. it leads to a pretty nightmarish power graph

[robust tulip]

this might be a stupid question

but say you needed a factory that required x number of a resource

and you have a train that has a throughput of x resource to the factory

wouldn't everything mess up if there were train intersections where trains have to stop?

how would i accommodate for that?

[prisma kraken]

no, when you transfer large quanta, there's a margin of error that is half the time the load takes to produce. as long as the next load arives somewhere in that window, you'll be fine

[robust tulip]

so the throughput doesn't have to exactly be x?

[prisma kraken]

what happens is for the first few train loads, the receiving end will stutter as the buffer runs dry, at which point you'll have some stuff sitting in the train or send buffers that is surplus and you end up with some buffered to give the arival times some slack

[robust tulip]

so as long as i ensure the loading station is getting x number of items, it'll be okay?

[prisma kraken]

unless you're exceeding what the train can transport/min

[robust tulip]

which i'm sure is a pretty big number

[prisma kraken]

i wouldn't overthink it, but if how it works really bugs you, build it and watch what's going on. it is kind of interesting to wrap your head around

[robust tulip]

kk

i'm just going to take your word for it, trains kinda mess with my brain

[prisma kraken]

ultimately less than 2400/min per train car; sometimes a lot less, but that is a function of item stack size and trip duration

[robust tulip]

do you ever have to exceed 5 cars

[prisma kraken]

no, i try to keep trains to 4 cars or less and use a 5-length train in rare cases

[robust tulip]

like reasonably

what are you doing in those cases?