math-and-meta

[oblique hollow]

Kinda the same question as "why cant drones use packaged liquid biofuel"

[prisma kraken]

idk, the fics rods are less energy than plut rods, you could split what you make more evenly?

(not really wanting to try and argue that point)

[simple onyx]

ohh may I ask what you use for this?

[thorn bane]

https://satisfactory-logistics.xyz

[simple onyx]

Thank you very much, one more for the bookmark collection 😄

[vapid gorge]

@thorny marsh bottom row is solution production, top row is scrap

blue is fresh, red is waste

[thorny marsh]

oh i get it

one of them gets water pumped in, and the rest just... ya

[vapid gorge]

all you need to do is clock it right

the refineries that run off waste water take a little while to spin up, but they'll get to 100%

[opaque token]

guys
10 fuel refineries to 20 fuel gens?
+40/m per machine
-20/m per generator

(w/o OC)

[vapid gorge]

math sounds right yes 🙂

[opaque token]

then why does this do that 😭

2 of em

[vapid gorge]

turn down the clocking of 1 or 2 machines until it's all full, then clock them back up

set them to like 50%

[opaque token]

could i just like

pause it?

[charred saffron]

Can't really pause a generator iirc, clocking them down works fine

[opaque token]

like the Standby switch

[vapid gorge]

generators are the only machine that accept fluid whiel on stand by.

it's a good habit to just down clock things

as other fluid processes WONT accept fluid, like Ficsit said

[outer vale]

for non-gens, if you are pausing 'em then make sure you pause a full one, because that

[opaque token]

ye thats why im pausing the full one

[brisk epoch]

mmm I am gonna have to do 100 singularity cells/min soon

[opaque token]

guys is this math mathing?

[wind spade]

I guess you can check with one of the tools out there

[vapid gorge]

I recommend this one. Just turn off the SAM ore in inputs tab

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/1.0/production

[torn plaza]

what did rubber do to you

[opaque token]

the HOR

[torn plaza]

hor is great

[opaque token]

how to get rid of well

[torn plaza]

petroleum coke and burn; or, residual fuel

[opaque token]

ok fair

[torn plaza]

i see you have fuel so residual fuel best

more fuel more power

free real estate

[opaque token]

man i was worried i ran out of shards

[torn plaza]

37.5 rubber makes 37.5 HOR, that can be turned into 25 fuel

[opaque token]

i have 93 shards in depot for some reason

[torn plaza]

that's 1.25 fuel generators

an extra 312.5MW of power for free

be on the hunt for the diluted (packaged) fuel alt recipe

[crimson moat]

37.5 rubber makes 37.5 HOR
what

[oblique hollow]

Default recipe for rubber is 20 rubber and 20 HOR

from 30 crude

So its not really "37.5 rubber makes 37.5 HOR"
but more "37.5 Rubber is made alongside 37.5 HOR"

[torn plaza]

ye

[strange cipher]

opinions on this rocket fuel plant?

[outer vale]

what about it?

this is #math-and-meta , what math are you querying?

[strange cipher]

idk if this is a optimal layout because its the first rocket fuel plant iv built

[vapid gorge]

well... some of it isn't on foundations and depending on the throughput you're putting on the pipe it branching like that might get flow stutters

[strange cipher]

tbh now i realize i shouldnt have tried to put any of it on the ground in the first place

havent had any flow stutters so far

[patent blaze]

hope they add more sam to the game

if im doing the math right you can only make 24 plutonium fuel rods into 120 ficsonium rods if you somersloop literally all of the reanimated sam with hacked sloops

thats only 18 uranium rods per minute with max efficiency in mind

and the bauxite.. oh god the bauxite

[unique cypress]

Yeah Ficsonium is expensive af for no reason.

I'm literally making a mod to make it take like 5x less SAM and slightly less of some other things

And even then it's still unreasonable

[oblique hollow]

It never was meant to be reasonable

[quick gorge]

Congrats, you got the point 😏

[unique cypress]

What's the point then? We already had waste-free nuclear

And it's both easier and cheaper

[outer vale]

now you have the option to do so while actually using the plutonium

[unique cypress]

And what do I get out of it?

[oblique hollow]

Then wheres the issue? Use it.
Ficsonium stretches waste free nuclear power out if you already used everything.

[unique cypress]

Bauxite to uranium conversion uses less SAM and less bauxite than Ficsonium

[oblique hollow]

Then use that

[unique cypress]

Then what's the point of Ficsonium?

[oblique hollow]

Perhaps just a trap.

[unique cypress]

That doesn't sound like good game design to me

[oblique hollow]

Good game design according to them is if you must make decisions

[oblique hollow]

Ficsonium offers 25% more nuclear power and sustainable plutonium power.
But then theres also Augmenters

Ficsonium is only good at enabling waste-free plutonium.
Otherwise you can still of course use plutonium and store the waste

[outer vale]

from just uranium rods and sinking the plutonium?

[brisk epoch]

I am planning for a 1.09TW ish generator with Ficsonium inc, I do like the good old challenge though

[oblique hollow]

And plutonium + ficsonium make up about 75% more nuclear power

If you take uranium power as the 100% baseline

[brisk epoch]

Pu is 50% extra isn't it

[oblique hollow]

Ye

and ficsonium is 25% extra

Using more uranium is always cheaper

[outer vale]

only 50%? thought it'd be more tbh

[oblique hollow]

Fics + Plut only really come into play if you ran out of Uranium

Or if you dont like waste

[outer vale]

I know in my setup the uranium and plutonium produce the same power overall, but I think the plutonium does use some of the raw uranium

[unique cypress]

Which you didn't because conversion

[deft lichen]

is ficsonium really worth the complexity though?

[brisk epoch]

worth me not having to worry about waste

[oblique hollow]

Then max out that uranium.

That is the choice you get to make

[deft lichen]

I'm still convinced that as of 1.0, a large rocket/ionized fuel plant is faster and simpler to build than an equivalent nuclear setup

[unique cypress]

Ionized fuel is an even worse power source than ficsonium

[oblique hollow]

Fuel power was always more space intensive on the generator side

[wind spade]

base uranium is super easy

[deft lichen]

make it rocket fuel then

[wind spade]

it's when you start mixing alts and waste processing, then it gets a bit more complicated

[deft lichen]

(I'm comparing rocket fuel + wasteless uranium)

[oblique hollow]

Ionized and Ficsonium are both Tier 9 stuff that only really seems to make sense if you want more but can't get more

[unique cypress]

An order of magnitude more complicated than rocket fuel isn't "a bit"

[wind spade]

well yeah, if you want wasteless, you have to add complexity. But you can do uranium with waste and get easy setup

[oblique hollow]

To be fair, Ficsonium is the very last thing you unlock.
By that point you can totally just have done other stuff

[wind spade]

it needs three items, one of which is once-processed-uranium, and the other two are things you're already making at that point in time

[quick gorge]

You will never need that much power, the only reason is because you want it.
The choice is not one you need to make. The choice is if you find the idea of terrawatts of power to be fun, go for it. So I'm content with ficsonium using SAM

[brisk epoch]

yeah you can beat phase 5 with < 50 GW easily

[deft lichen]

resource cost doesn't matter nearly as much as complexity/building count

[brisk epoch]

but ficsonium makes for a good challenge or fun build run

if one desires

[deft lichen]

the average player does not have to worry about running out of map limits, so factoring resource cost is only reasonable if you want to avoid importing from far away

[quick gorge]

If you're using SAM for ficsonium or conversion you're like less than 1% of players

[oblique hollow]

Tbh if you finish the game you are already 1% of players

According to steam achievements xd

(Or was it 5%. Cant remember)

Ficsonium is definitely not something that leads you into infinite growth.

Its at the very end. There is nothing afterwards that it could really assist with except for the freeplay stage. Which IS the for-fun stage

[vapid gorge]

well it does look like you have low flow in the pipes which helps

[vapid gorge]

it was for all the people who couldn't help themselves burning plutonium rods and then bitching about the waste

[strange cipher]

tbh im thinking that i can just sloop the blenders and toss 16 more generators in there

[vapid gorge]

I mean sloops take a lot of power.

just use one of those power augmenters

if you're going to dupe something

[oblique hollow]

4x more, which is quite a bit

[strange cipher]

tbh at that point the power loss is negligible

[oblique hollow]

Augmenters are the real power scalers

[strange cipher]

slooping will give me another 6k easily

i think

[plain rivet]

sloops cost a lot of power, they effectively half the power cost of everything before them in the production chain right?

[vapid gorge]

Well I think it's 400% whatever power the machine was doing? Which per item might be a saver overall depending on your chain

[dusky dust]

Yeah, it's 4x power on the machine with the sloop, but you could certainly think of it as roughly halving the power requirements for everything prior in the chain (compared to what it'd require if you made that much without sloops)

Would be a bit of handwaving due to underclocking and resource extraction and such but good enough for mental math

[prisma kraken]

does anyone know of how drone fuel usage is actually calculated? i'm finding the stats the drone ports report extremely opaque

[wind spade]

my guess is same as other fuels - [drone power usage] / [fuel energy] = [how long one piece of fuel lasts]

[dusky dust]

The fuel-per-minute number on the drone port is wrong, btw, at least for Batteries (I have not tested with other fuel types). In my experience it's always reported higher than reality

The two numbers I know are right are the round-trip time, and the fuel-per trip, though for round-trip time you need to make sure that a drone's made a full circuit or two after loading the save

The fuel-per-trip is technically a float, so the reported value on there might be ever so slightly off

SCIM calculates the fuel-per-min value properly, at least, so if you look at the ports in there you can get a very accurate per-minute fuel reading. (Though make sure that the game was saved after the drone has made a couple round trips)

[prisma kraken]

yeah, it seems the math is just flat out wrong

[dusky dust]

My QA posts from when I was digging into it, fwiw:
- https://questions.satisfactorygame.com/post/6780c209c10ae65555c7a5ad

• https://questions.satisfactorygame.com/post/6780c4b2c10ae65555c7a5af
• https://questions.satisfactorygame.com/post/6780c6efc10ae65555c7a5b2

[prisma kraken]

in my experimenting, it looks like the drones do take the amount of fuel per trip listed, and the round trip time is probably right on (given averaging variance

i'm doing my testing with yellow fuel right now, and seems to agree with your observations

what's weird for me though is i've got some nitrogen being shipped in a pack/unpack loop, and it should be moving at exactly 200/min, and the port shows this:

[dusky dust]

IME that number does eventually settle to near reality but can take awhile. It looks like there's maybe an "overflow" of material to transfer on there? The drone'll be taking a full 9 stacks every time on that one

If you've always got a full 9 stacks to transfer even if you're only using 200/min, that could maybe be what's elevating the number

[prisma kraken]

so, assuming that the 54 per trip is correct (seems from observation to be), and given that my actual transfer rate is 200/min. The drone needs 1 trip ever 4.5 minutes. 54 fuel / 4.5 minute = 12 fuel/min

[dusky dust]

Yeah, 900 tanks being transferred every 3:30 is, indeed, about 255/min

[prisma kraken]

but that isn't reality

[dusky dust]

The input/output buffers in the screen are nearly full, though -- the drone'll be taking 9 stacks every single time

[prisma kraken]

like the math is just so completely janked up

[dusky dust]

So that number seems right to me

Just seems like there's an excess of items on both input+output

[prisma kraken]

yep, but the frequency of the trip occurring is less than 3:31 minutes

[dusky dust]

I've not personally seen the reported round-trip time be wrong, once the drone's completed a full round-trip after loading the game

[prisma kraken]

that's what's missing from the picture is how often a trip happens

[dusky dust]

(the time reported once a drone lands for the first time after loading a game can be wrong, though)

There should be a new trip every 3:30. Unless you've also got a drone on the remote side pulling from that port, of course. I've never tested stuff in that scenario

[prisma kraken]

incidentally, numbers shown are for a drone that's been doing its thing for several days of play time at this point

[patent blaze]

kinda necropost but i feel like not being able to use maximum plutonium because theres not enough resources in the game is a turnoff

and if i spawn in a bunch of extra resource nodes its just cheating

[prisma kraken]

no there shouldn't. the drone sits in the port waiting to unload for about a minute:20 sec

[dusky dust]

They seem accurate to me given what the screenshot says (apart from the reported per-min fuel usage, which is presumably jank in the ways already described)

[dusky dust]

That's factored into the round-trip time

Loading/unloading times are part of that number; I've checked 'em with a stopwatch

[prisma kraken]

there isn't space in the port for 900 to transfer every 3:30

[dusky dust]

Your screenshot's got nearly full input/output buffers

[prisma kraken]

yep

[dusky dust]

There's enough material in both, on that screenshot, for the drone to take 9 stacks

Nothing looks awry to me on there; the numbers IMO make sense

(gotta run AFK for awhile, btw, not ghosting, just busy. :)

[prisma kraken]

there's just a variable missing

it isn't that the numbers are incorrect, its just that we need either the trip frequency or drone idle time

(one can be derived from the other)

in any event, CSS should hire an actuary coder to actually clean up the games stats to make this stuff clearer

[dusky dust]

Oh oh, you mean that your drone's sitting at the port for awhile, unable to fully unload, because the output buffer's full?

[prisma kraken]

yeah, it can't make more than a trip every 4.5 minutes

if i'm consuming 900 items at a rate of 200/min, that's a trip every 4.5 minutes

that isn't a trip every 3.5 minutes. there's roughly a minute of time where the drone is just waiting to unload

that's why the numbers are so fricking off

i'd hazard to guess that the numbers are tabulated assuming continuous flight time

they're still off if you factory that all in, the 17.x per min isn't reality

what i think may be going into the calculation is some remnant from the pre-1.0 battery tabulation where 4 batteries per trip was the minimum

[oblique hollow]

Theres not enough in the game to use it. And the devs prefer if we have to make decisions rather than being able to max out everything with no thought to it

Nothing can use that much power. So its unreasonable to expect to be able to max it out anyway

You can use a ton of uranium and plutonium and ficsonium. But maxing it out was never needed and deciding that you want to has its consequences

[wind spade]

the history of game UIs showing wrong things goes back to pre-EA era 😄 it's kinda trademark at this point

[oblique hollow]

If they wanted us to be able to just max out absolutely everything then they would have not made sloops or SAM or Nitrogen or Bauxite or Uranium limited at all

[thorn trail]

they did give players a way to max out everything, it's called 'modding'

[dusky dust]

Ah gotcha, yeah, I admit I hadn't tested out anything in that scenario. :P

Agreed that the stats UIs for a lot of stuff could use work, though. The fact that the per-minute fuel consumption is wrong is particularly annoying

[thorn trail]

just curious, what do you consider to be the pre-EA area, because I remember playing Summer Games by EA on my c-64 back in the mid 80s

[dusky dust]

(Though at least in my testing it was always over-reporting usage, so if you were using it to know how much fuel you needed to be producing, at worst you'd be over-producing fuel rather than under-producing)

[wind spade]

I meant in context of Satisfactory

[patent blaze]

1 packed fluid container is 1m3 right

[wind spade]

the history of game Satisfactory UIs showing wrong things goes back to pre-EA era 😄 it's kinda trademark at this point

[wind spade]

depends on the fluid

[patent blaze]

for fuels?

[wind spade]

which one?

[patent blaze]

biofuel

[wind spade]

yeah

[patent blaze]

oooh i see now on the wiki

it seems like liquids stay the same 1:1 but gasses get compressed a bit, makes sense

[wind spade]

some gases 🙂 and yeah, that's why I asked 🙂

[patent blaze]

cool

felt like checking how much i got lol

[wind spade]

I know I shouldn't ask, but... why

[patent blaze]

where the shhh emoji haha

idk, learning how to calculate fuel generator stuff i guess

[wind spade]

no I mean... why do you have so much biofuel 😄

[patent blaze]

sloops and lots of adventures

a lot of killing monsters haha

killing and being murdered by monsters

[thorn trail]

that answers 'how?' but not 'why?'

[patent blaze]

why not? should i just sink all of it? its kinda unique why not horde it

[thorn trail]

effort?

[wind spade]

I'd understand a depot with a container as a buffer, for the few times where you need specifically biofuel, but not 24+ containers 😄

[oblique hollow]

Its not really unique? Enemies are plenty

[thorn trail]

maybe if you were using all the liquid biofuel to deep fat fry all the alien protein for a thanksgiving party or something

[patent blaze]

hell yeah

[restive sparrow]

Who said you can't process all of the plut in the game? What resource is limiting you?

I don't think I'd say you -SHOULD- but I believe you can.

[patent blaze]

bauxite, sam, and uuuh maybe coal or something

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/1.0/production?share=NJxG5TPrWPzQ7gp9zq5D

this is assuming you sloop ALL reanimated sam, which you need to hack in sloops for

[restive sparrow]

That doesn't make any sense to me. You can use aluminum in the process but I don't think you have to (I forget honestly) and I don't recall it being a lot.

[patent blaze]

this is just for 240 plut waste

[restive sparrow]

OH we're into conversion shenanigans?

[patent blaze]

ficsite ingots are converted

if there was another way to make them it'd probably be fine

[wind spade]

max plutonium (without using SAM) is completely doable

[patent blaze]

yeah of course you can make it but you'll have to delete waste using save editors

[wind spade]

or... just store it

[patent blaze]

i meant processing the waste of maximum plutonium

thats not feasible once you make like 600 per minute

thats 3 stacks per minute, one big box is like 48 slots

[wind spade]

it's completely feasible

[restive sparrow]

Yeah I thought you were talking about making max plutonium rods at first.

[wind spade]

one blueprint is like 20 ISCs+, you click the blueprint 10 times and have storage for days

[restive sparrow]

I haven't even looked into the ficsonium options but it doesn't sound right to me that it's impossible

[patent blaze]

i just assumed that nobody touched plutonium without finishing ficsonium at the same time cause of the waste

trust me it is lol

[wind spade]

have you played pre-1.0? 😛

[prisma kraken]

keep in mind the amount of plut rods you can make off of U waste varies quite a bit based on your recipe selection for plut rods

[wind spade]

we didn't have a way to process PWaste and people still did it

[restive sparrow]

Plutonium waste really doesn't stack up that fast.

[patent blaze]

like 2018-2019, but i dont remember anything from that period..

[wind spade]

maxed plutonium fuel rods aren't max power anyway, so people usually do "max power" rather than "max PFR"

[patent blaze]

yeah of course, but i wanna make max plutonium and i cant 😭

[wind spade]

you... can 🤷

[oblique hollow]

You just have to store waste

[wind spade]

just need a decently sized storage based on how long you want to play

[prisma kraken]

i'd have to crunch the numbers on it, but the calculus changes in 1.0 quite a bit

[oblique hollow]

You just wont get max plutonium that is endlessly sustainable

[patent blaze]

okay i forgot to add one detail AGAIN max plutonium AND ficsonium

[restive sparrow]

I'm not doing max uranium or anything but in literally 2 blueprints of containers I calculated I put down 1152 hours of plut waste storage or some shit (for max plut from 300 uranium). Doesn't seem like a lot of containers to even store max plut

[patent blaze]

i hate storing waste

[oblique hollow]

Which just means "max sustainable plutonium"

You get max ficsonium anyway.

That number just doesnt equal "max plutonium with 0 waste"

[wind spade]

ok, then it indeed becomes impossible (unless you do just "max ficsonium", then it's completely fine)

[patent blaze]

yeah then you get like 120 but use up all the bauxite in the world like the link i sent

120 f rods

[oblique hollow]

Its completely fair to be unsustainable because this is kinds just a "i wanna do it for fun" goal

[patent blaze]

im assuming hacked in sloops for sam

[oblique hollow]

Its not a useful goal

Its purely for fun

So maxing out out as much as possible itself is the reward anyway

Same deal with max rocket fueo or whatever

Max out anything and you get left with nothing useful

[oblique hollow]

Theres enough sloops for all sam in the world

[restive sparrow]

The vast majority of your aluminum consumption is coming from converting aluminum ingots. I haven't used converters but can't you convert from something different?

[oblique hollow]

You must overclock the constructors

[patent blaze]

are constructors 1x

[oblique hollow]

Yes

[patent blaze]

if so then yeah, its like 86 or something constructors

iirc

[oblique hollow]

34

Overclock them to 250%

overclocking maximizes sloop usage

[patent blaze]

oh shit true

[restive sparrow]

That moment when you use more power than you're generating, but you're having fun.

[patent blaze]

batteries for life

[wind spade]

maxed plutonium means that one ISC is enough for slightly above 40 minutes, so one BP with 20 ISCs in it will last for 13.333 hours of gameplay, which seems fine given the scale of the project

[wind spade]

*power storages 😛

[patent blaze]

oh right arent they inertal storage

[restive sparrow]

Storages are fun, but not going to save you from slooped up stuff that is running literally 100% of the time.

[oblique hollow]

Its just 34 constructors

[patent blaze]

i have way more power than i could use

almost 1m

[oblique hollow]

Not 34 max OC Encoders

[restive sparrow]

I'm mainly being silly

[patent blaze]

encoderas are the ones that are random right

[oblique hollow]

Then theres no point in crying over ficsonium either!
You are technically wasting it all anyway because you arent using it

[oblique hollow]

Yes and they use a lot

[patent blaze]

yeah but big number go even bigger

[oblique hollow]

Big number go brrr is a disease

Everything has limits.
Including your PC

A maxed out world makes any supercomputer crumple

Im not impressed by high power productions tbh

Only if it is paired with an equally high usage

[patent blaze]

after i did nuclear i find making "normal" factories kinda boring

[oblique hollow]

Theres always max sinkpoint if you want another unreasonable goal

[hard orchid]

hi there, does anyone know how many water extractors fit in the blue crater by any chance ?

[viral tusk]

By my experience, more than you could possibly need for any oil production chains around there. What are you planning?

[hard orchid]

a 1188 rocket fuel generator powerplant for starters

[viral tusk]

is that number overclocked or no?

[hard orchid]

no

that'll reduce the number of generators but not the water needs

the plan is to get 4950 rocket fuel

[viral tusk]

you can definitely fit enough extractors for that, but I highly recommend overclocking the fuel generators

[hard orchid]

yeah, no arguments here

no point really to not over clock power generators (when you can)

[viral tusk]

I just build a 9444/m rocket fuel setup and if I didn't overclock the generators I might not be alive today

[hard orchid]

^^

[viral tusk]

generators are big and slow so it's about saving space (and your computer)

[hard orchid]

trying to integrate all resources from the blue crater itself, no the entire biome, so I'll need a lot more water for the end project

i always kinda forget how bit the crater lake actually is when i don't have it in front of me

with 250% water extractors there should more than enough for the entire biome actually

[viral tusk]

True, and water extractors go a long way in the rocket fuel production chain. I had to build a lot fewer than I thought I would need at the start of the project.

[hard orchid]

nice

[viral tusk]

sad thing is I'm not even done

I need to build 907 generators

[hard orchid]

there's always more to build ^^

[viral tusk]

I have 692 so far

and those numbers are overclocked

[hard orchid]

did you haul sulfur from the entire map for 9444 rocket fuel ?

[viral tusk]

about half the sulfur on the map I would say

I'm going to make a second factory slightly bigger than this one in the south with the other half

[hard orchid]

how much of these 9444 go directly in generators ?

[viral tusk]

all of it

[hard orchid]

i'll put just a bit aside for some drone shenanigans

[viral tusk]

that would be nice, I can't use drones unfortunately

[hard orchid]

why not ?

computer not handling it ?

[viral tusk]

I'm trying to make as much power as possible and all drone fuels could put towards that goal

[hard orchid]

I see

did anyone reach the theoretical max already ?

[viral tusk]

nobody knows what the max is but I'm sure trying my best to set a record

[hard orchid]

i like this kind of goal

[viral tusk]

with drones, at first I thought that I could power drones on plutonium fuel. I would have some extra I couldn't burn because I don't have enough fixonium production to consume all the waste that would make. Then it turns out I could use a less efficient recipe to consume all of the nuclear waste while making only as much plutonium as I could burn, and in doing so saving on quartz which is needed elsewhere

[hard orchid]

I'm just trying to get in the mindset for maximum power, that's literally a different game

[viral tusk]

I could show you what my factory plan looks like, but it's not pretty and has caused symptoms of insanity

[hard orchid]

haha

[restive sparrow]

Well and if you want maximum power you don't care about having waste. Maximum means maximum not "eew gross I don't like containers"

[viral tusk]

True but I'm going for wasteless power (I just feel like it)

[restive sparrow]

If you're literally maxing out every single power source that seems like a weird line to draw, but ok.

[hard orchid]

don't you get more power from the waste than what's needed to create that power anyway ?

[viral tusk]

It's not about net power, only capacity. I just find the challenge of managing waste more engaging and I want a base that could run forever, not just for as long as containers have more space

I'll let someone else get the record with waste, that's just not my cup of tea

[hard orchid]

noble goals

[viral tusk]

and it's definitely not that I care about polluting the environment. I'm going to to be burning 17,150 rocket fuel per minute

[hard orchid]

https://tenor.com/view/michael-douglas-inhale-smoke-romancing-the-stone-gif-26350440

[viral tusk]

^^ actual photo of me in my power plant

[robust notch]

Anyone got nuclear setup plans? Satisfactory calculator is not all that helpful when it comes down to it imo

[wind spade]

have you tried other tools?

[robust notch]

Modeler is a bust as well

I'm just wondering if anyone has a setup that they previously used

[wind spade]

have you tried https://www.satisfactorytools.com/1.0/ ?

[robust notch]

Yeah that's what I meant when I said satisfactory calculator

[wind spade]

ah, how was it "not helpful"?

(also this one is usually called "Tools" or "SFTools", while there's another one which is called "calculator" or "SCIM")

[robust notch]

Yeah that's the one where the map comes from

[robust notch]

In all reality I'm not gonna do all the calculations for nuclear, I mean I want to build a plant but if it really comes down to it I'm prob not gonna make one. If someone has a spreadsheet or something similar tho I would gladly sit down and start on one

[wind spade]

Tools can give you the numbers though

[oblique hollow]

you give it a target number of uranium fuel rods and it gives you the entire plan.
Isnt that what you want?

[robust notch]

There's a lot more to it than that lol

I mean it can be that simple

[oblique hollow]

you mean layout for the factory?

or do you mean the waste stuff

[robust notch]

Everything if I'm being honest

I can deal with waste and all that but working on everything is a major pain when ur solo

[oblique hollow]

well no planner will tell you how to build your factory.
Tools will tell you how many resources you need and how many buildings.

[robust notch]

I'm trying to get the most bang for your buck with my uranium

[wind spade]

that Tools can do

[oblique hollow]

Thats what the calculator's job is

[restive sparrow]

sftools will tell you exactly that

[oblique hollow]

it gives you the most for what you have available

[restive sparrow]

Pshhh what would you know?!

[oblique hollow]

the only thing left for you is to tell it

1. what recipes you have
2. how much ore you have

[robust notch]

Sf tools will tell you to make copper alloy because you have extra iron man

It's not the greatest tool ever

[oblique hollow]

because its efficient

It gives you more bang for your buck, literally

[restive sparrow]

So if you don't want it doing that because your iron isn't near your copper simply divide your project into smaller projects or disable the allow recipe. I don't see the issue.

[robust notch]

There is a balance between simplicity and efficiency that you're not considering

[oblique hollow]

No calc will go for simplicity

they are all designed for efficiency

[wind spade]

how can a computer consider "simplicity", which is inherently a subjective parameter?

[restive sparrow]

It's up to you to craft the results how you want it. If you don't like using the alloy recipe you can disable the recipe.

[wind spade]

it gives you most weighted-resource efficient way, you control it by giving it access to recipes you want to use

[robust notch]

Go look how simple base uranium fuel rods are and then compare that to the same factory with all alternate recipes instead

[wind spade]

if you don't want to use all the recipes, why did you select them?

[robust notch]

Its an example man

[oblique hollow]

There is no "just give me simple" alt calculator.
if you want simple, go with rocket fuel, not nuclear

[restive sparrow]

Alternate recipes are very very frequently more efficient at the expense of being more complex. That's just how it works. Don't like complex recipes just disable them

[wind spade]

I mean... if you ask computer to do X, and then don't like the result, that's on you for asking it to do X

[oblique hollow]

You can manually go through and disable every recipe that you find "complex" and it will give you the best you can do with thats left

[plain rivet]

is there any way to mix the recipes?

[oblique hollow]

Usually the calc doesnt mix because it will find X is more efficient than Y by a few percent

[wind spade]

in Tools? it will use multiple if it's resource efficient

(which usually happens when you deal with byproducts or when you're dealing with limited resources)

[plain rivet]

the only reason i use the modeler sometimes, is i can split the machines and i can mix the recipes even if it's less efficient

[restive sparrow]

This is exactly what I did for my nuke plant, for literally this exact situation. I was processing iron really far from where I was processing copper. I disabled copper alloy recipe and I got a plan that worked exactly for what I needed. 🤯

[plain rivet]

like i want to use pure copper over here, but regular copper over there

[wind spade]

you can kinda force it by setting resource limits, but otherwise tools don't really know how you want to split

[wind spade]

two tabs

[oblique hollow]

The calcs can only do so much.
You gotta put in some work too

[restive sparrow]

Yeah that sounds like a great use case for separating the plans

[plain rivet]

can the tabs feed other tabs?

[oblique hollow]

nope

you can copy the output of one tab as the input of a new one though

[restive sparrow]

Not directly but you can make tabs that do that by putting the outputs of one tab as inputs on another tab.

[oblique hollow]

as every tab can manually receive resource inputs

of any kind

like "5/min computers"

and it will try to use those up

[plain rivet]

yeah, i get it. i use tools to get the general layout and then modeler to actually build the machine layout and belt splits etc

[wind spade]

yeah that's a good use of both tools

[plain rivet]

this site is also good.

https://satisfactory-logistics.xyz

[wind spade]

Tools aren't really designed for floor planning, Modeller isn't designed for calculating 😄

[slow crater]

Trying to decide how I should setup my oil. I’ve only got the default recipes unlocked and a pure node. I’m trying to maximize power, rubber, and plastic output from this one node (seems like a math problem I should be able to solve but I can’t think about it lol). Suggestions?

[unique cypress]

Get alts, you'll get 3-4.5 times more stuff than you could ever do with defaults

[slow crater]

Any specific alt suggestions in particular?

[unique cypress]

Heavy Oil Residue, Diluted Fuel (Packaged or Blender, depends on your tier), Recycled Rubber, Recycled Plastic

With all of those, you can get 3 plastic/rubber from 1 oil, or 2.666 fuel and 0.333 plastic/rubber

and any ratio of the 3 in-between

[restive sparrow]

Residual plastic/rubber helps too, but isn't crucial as it'll only be one machine used to kickstart the recycle loop.

[unique cypress]

1. They're not alts
2. Residual rubber is more efficient
3. Yes, I forgot you need res. rubber for the full 3:1 ratio

[slow crater]

So is the best setup then to just do Oil>Heavy Residue>diluted fuel>turbo/plas/rubber?

[unique cypress]

Unless you specifically want to save on oil (which ig in this case you do), there's not really a point to using turbofuel for power. It's only advantage over regular fuel is oil efficiency. If you care about that more than anything else, use it, if you don't, don't.

Unless you're in tier 8 already, then don't use either regular or turbo, use rocket fuel

[slow crater]

Ok awesome. Thanks for the insight

[bleak wagon]

I think I got this about as compact as i can reasonably make it (its a belt compressor)

[plucky tusk]

How

[bleak wagon]

priority mergers

wtf it doesnt actually connect the priority merger to the lift

ig they removed it in 1.1 or something

[unique cypress]

I've noticed that some of the blueprints I made with weird lift configurations have the lifts disconnected from splitters/mergers after pasting the blueprint. There are no i/o arrows in the designer, but after pasting the blueprint, there are and I need to connect them with belts and blueprint it again

[restive sparrow]

These compact lift layouts don't seem to work the same in 1.1 a couple things work, but most of them don't. If you make the BP in 1.1 I think it's guaranteed to work in 1.1. if you made it in 1.0 and it's compressed it may or may not be busted

[umbral barn]

can someone check satisfactory tools numbers rq? i think smths off

[vapid gorge]

seems right to me. What seems off to you?

[umbral barn]

10 refineries can intake 600 heavy a minute 5 does 300

im exporting 900 heavy into the system per minute

so it should be 15 not 30

OH NVM I WAS WRONG IT WAS RIGHT

I THOUIGHT THE REFINERIES WERE 1:1

NOT TWO TO ONE

[vapid gorge]

for this sort of thing I highly recommend making it so you have it go packager -> refinery -> unpackager, and then loop the empties back to the start

1:1:1

[umbral barn]

yeah i did dw

[prisma kraken]

@dusky dust i found a case where the 'fuel per trip' on drones is reported incorrectly. our assumption that that is correct appears to be incorrect

[willow moss]

How would I go about doing this? I want to take the limestone from these two miners and balance them so that both lines hold the exact same ppm. I have a double overclocked pure node and a slightly overclocked impure node (with mk2 miners) to get the exact number of limestone I need. I only have Mk.4 conveyors so I can't just merge them.

[vapid gorge]

set the miner to mine the same amount?

[willow moss]

Can a mk2 miner on an impure node make it to 283?

[vapid gorge]

no idea, check it out

you can also always just split both miner's output in 2 and merge 1 belt of each

also this is a much faster planner https://www.satisfactorytools.com/1.0/production

just turn off the SAM ore in input

you'll be able to come up with splits and merges without manually creating nodes very quickly

[willow moss]

Ill try it out.

Would a smart splitter work? Send the 480 into the first set of constructors, which will process 283, then send the overflow to merge with the other limestone?

[vapid gorge]

depends on your layout.

but simplest is split and merge

you could over flow one to the other with a ss too I suppose

lots of options 🙂

[thorn trail]

@wind spade please forgive my ignorance/misunderstanding earlier regarding your EA comment, for some reason I mistakenly read that as Electronic Arts instead of what you probably intended to be Early Access. No idea why I jumped in that direction.

[prisma kraken]

what you're trying to do is more trouble than it is worth - just clock both to max and make extra concrete, but to actually answer your original question, split both miner's output's in half, then merge half of each line together and you'll have the even split

[frosty owl]

Well, depends on how you clock them... 😉

[fallow siren]

split both miner into A1B1 and A2B2

merge A1 with A2 and B1 with B2 and you will get equal amount

since its just 2:2 balancing, its quite easy to do

[wind zinc]

why can i get rocket fuel alt's before i unlock the OG recipe ?

[wind spade]

all turbofuel recipes are alts

[wind zinc]

oh

[wind zinc]

i guess the same goes for rocket fuel

[wind spade]

indeed

to be even more exact - the game doesn't have any clear definition of what is and isn't "alt", so community in general uses "alt is anything that needs HDD to research"

[unique cypress]

As of 1.0, I think the devs finally made this consistent. Anything that is a reward from scanning a hard drive is an alt, and everything else isn't

[wind spade]

yeah, except the game doesn't have anything to distinguish between "alt" and "non-alt" recipe, so it's still practically a community-made distinction

[unique cypress]

Turbofuel in the game files is called "Alternate_Turbofuel", but in-game, it doesn't have the "Alternate:" prefix anymore

[wind spade]

yeah, the only thing is the prefix, which has been inconsistent a lot

[unique cypress]

It has been inconsistent, yes. But I'm saying that it is not anymore.

I could be wrong, because I haven't checked compacted coal, but default turbofuel (the one you get from the sulfur tree) does not have the Alternate prefix anymore, at least in game

[wind spade]

which... is inconsistent, because turbofuel and compacted coal need HDD, therefore they are alt

[unique cypress]

They need a hard drive, but they're not researched in the hard drive tab

Everything you get from the hard drive tab is an alt, everything else isn't

That's the logic now, I think

[wind spade]

yeah, but again, the definition community uses is "everything that needs HDD to research is an alt"

(because there isn't anything in the game that defines what alt is)

for example in codex, "alt" is any recipe that wasn't first for given item

in some wild cases, you can even have your "default" recipe be an alt

wiki lists TF as an alt as well

[unique cypress]

Idk man , I'd say that having or not having the "Alternate" prefix in the name pretty clearly defines what is and isn't an alt.

At least according to the devs

Also, the codex is no longer divided into "default" and "alternate" recipes

and default turbofuel isn't an alt anymore

[wind spade]

ah, they changed this

[wind spade]

it is an alt under "needs HDD to research" definition

[unique cypress]

Compacted coal is called an alt though

but tubofuel isn't?

[wind spade]

yeah, it's inconsistent 🙂

[unique cypress]

bruh, css

[frosty owl]

@ CSS for complaints, they won't mind

[unique cypress]

Neither rocket or ionized fuel are called alts either

why is compacted coal lol

[frosty owl]

In the wiki, an "alt" is an alternative way to make something. Rocket and Ionized fuel only have one recipe to make them, thus that one recipe is their "standard"

[pastel obsidian]

Maybe they did it to drive up engagement

[unique cypress]

Both have 2 ways?

[pastel obsidian]

The only reason the giraffe is in the game is so someone on reddit can make a post every Monday about it

[frosty owl]

Then only one of those two should be labeled as "standard" ^^

[wind spade]

I don't agree with "standard" recipes being a thing

[frosty owl]

(The wiki reflects this atm)

[wind spade]

since then you have a lot of gray areas

[frosty owl]

Like?

[wind spade]

residual fuel

dissolved silica quartz purification

unpackage X

Power Shard (1/2/5)

[frosty owl]

Good point. Personally, I would throw them all into "alternate", except the recipes for Packagers (I think those are obvious enough)

[wind spade]

personally I just do "alt" and "non-alt"

[frosty owl]

Power shard is also obvious (and unique) enough

[wind spade]

though even the "alt" category is kinda ambiguous

[frosty owl]

I don't see the difference between that and "alt vs standard"

[wind spade]

fuck humans and their need to compartmentalize things

[frosty owl]

Well, "non-alt" is shorter...

[wind spade]

"standard" to me implies one standard way to make it, which falls short if there's multiple "standard" recipes for one item (or when the only recipe to make that thing is an alt)

[quick gorge]

There are no alts.
There are only recipes.
there is more than one way to skin a cat kitten and/or puppy.

[wind spade]

yeah, I'm also team "all recipes are recipes" 😄

[unique cypress]

Except bolted plate, bolted frame, cast screw and steel screw

those do not exist to me

[fallow siren]

can always group recipe that only available with hard drives as alt

[quick gorge]

Nah. I don't make real factories until I have all recipes for a give thing unlocked

Going to take an assuage from Factorio.
No one cares or can judge something if you call it your ⭐ Starter base ⭐

[wind spade]

but I need to build a starter base to allow me to build my starter base which will then make resources to build my starter base, which I need to build my starter base

[wind spade]

which is kinda what we're doing right now

[frosty owl]

But some recipes are AlWaYs BeTtEr!

[frosty owl]

You must have huge facilities to make Rotors

[unique cypress]

Rotors are cheap and easy to make regardless of the recipes you use

Unless you make screws from aluminum

And steel rotor is made from the exact same ingredients as default stator so it's even easier

So I just spam my iron wire and iron pipe blueprints and it's done

[wind spade]

steel rotor is extra expensive, alu screws are actually pretty cheap

[unique cypress]

Steel rotor isn't particularly cheap but it's easy, and alu screws aren't easy but are pretty cheap.

But there's 90k iron available on the map so I don't care if I need 6 per rotor

And until 1.0, Bauxite was the first thing I always ran out of

And screws are extra painful with my playstyle because I always put all machines making the same thing in one place and merge (or balance) all their inputs and outputs

[wind zinc]

anyway, it would have been good to know before i made 200 batteries/min

[umbral barn]

Oh?

[outer vale]

with the magic of clocking, any* ratio is doable
terms and conditions apply

[unique cypress]

Well, no, you only have 4 decimal places to work with

Any infinitely repeating decimal will be slightly off

[frosty owl]

Yeah, as mentioned, since you can clock machines up to 250%, you can change a 2:1 into a 1:1 by clocking one part to 200% (or make it into 2x(1:1) by clocking one part at 50%, same concept, more machines and less shards used)

[unique cypress]

Just do a balancer and you can turn any ratio into any other ratio without having to think about it

[outer vale]

terms and conditions apply
though you can generally scale around. need 3:1? Clock at 50% and 150%, rather than 33.334% and 100%

[oblique hollow]

Mathematical perfection vs practical perfection is the difference.

Any rounding error due to only having 4 decimals will not impact any factory meaningfully in the next 20 - 100 years of playtime

And given how long the average save file lasts..... Its fair to assume it will probably never impact a save

[unique cypress]

Yeah, the error is only up to a few thousands of a percent and usually much less

[dusky dust]

How off was it, btw?

I had seen that the very first fuelling of a drone often takes more than it needs to for some inexplicable reason

Was it a case where there was fuel available on both sides? That's another case I'd not actually tested out at all

[noble sail]

Need help with signaling. Making a T intersection when i place signals it says they loop into each other but i have no idea how.

[tulip cliff]

ok you will need 6 signals each one facing the way the trains are coming from right before each switch

[noble sail]

which type of signals

block or path?

[tulip cliff]

path

[vapid gorge]

you can just just block

[noble sail]

ok.

[noble sail]

and it wont loop into it's self?

[tulip cliff]

it should not

[noble sail]

ok let me see rq.

[vapid gorge]

trains slow down approaching path signals, while going full speed at block signals so it's a bit of a muchness. But block is simpler

[unique cypress]

Only if you place them wrong

[noble sail]

I placed all 6 path signals in the locations but it still say "Signal Loops into itself"

[unique cypress]

Post a screenshot with the colors

[vapid gorge]

show what it looks like in signal mode

[vapid gorge]

this shouldn't be the same block

[noble sail]

how do i fix it?

[vapid gorge]

or this one

[unique cypress]

Yeah, before and after a signal the rails should be different colours. Rebuild the connections between rails around any location where that doesn't happen

[noble sail]

ok

[unique cypress]

An alternative explanation is rails too close but it doesn't look like it's the case here

[vapid gorge]

maybe move the block signal further back?

[noble sail]

Ok that was the problem aparently the rails were placed wrong it works now thanks.

[vapid gorge]

the closest you can realistically put rails is if you have 2 foundations side by side, have the rails in the centres

[noble sail]

yea ik.

[deft lichen]

this sometimes happens with no apparent reason, it's not that the signal needs to be moved, only rebuilding the track seems to fix it

I tried messing around with it a while back and couldn't reproduce it reliably

same as the 1 in 10000 chance to get stuck in tier 0 after skipping ADA dialogue

[unique cypress]

From my experience, rail connection happen when building them too quickly. Like a rail deciding to connect to another rail whose building animation is currently playing rather than the rail you actually connected it to

[plain rivet]

is that true? if i put 1/3 * 100 as my clock rate it stores 33.3333 hard stop? it doesn't store like a floating point number or soemthing?

[unique cypress]

I haven't actually verified it myself, but yes, that's what I heard several times, and haven't heard anyone disputing it

[plain rivet]

now you have

[unique cypress]

I guess I could check this quite easily... It would just take a long time

[serene plume]

So you really have to carefully look at the results produced in Satisfactory Tools. It REALLY wants to use alt recipes if at all possible. I've noticed "misuse" of them now and then and hand removed them from the list to get a better recipe, but this was an amusingly stark difference. Top image is with all my alts enabled (about 4/5 of the total) and the bottom was with base recipes only. 😄

[dusky dust]

Really what sftools wants to do is minimize resource usage based on the relative "weights" of the resources in question (determined by the total availability of the resources by the map), and that just happens to end up favoring various alts

Diamonds in particular are pretty susceptible to that, since Turbo Diamonds are by many metrics the most resource-efficient, but that means adding in petrochem stuff, and the solver will generally try to use the most-oil-efficient loops for all that, which baloons the complexity up significantly

[serene plume]

It's not usually nearly this bad, just thought this example was pretty funny. 🙂

[dusky dust]

My own favorite thing with sftools is when a recipe involves Nitric Acid and the solver just optimizes the hell out of the miniscule amounts of Iron Plates that you need for those. :D

Yeah, for sure. :)

I was glad I found a chain that made use of Turbo Diamonds on my 1.0 save; mostly I didn't quite find it worth the complexity while building

(My fav probably remains Pink Diamonds, even though Quartz is pretty "expensive")

[unique cypress]

with all alts it's even better lol

[prisma kraken]

it was listing 85 per trip and only taking 55 (yellow fuel)

[dusky dust]

That's a pretty big gap! I'd been meaning test different fuel types to see if that mattered; all of y tests were with batteries

[prisma kraken]

yeah, i intend on doing some more tests with different fuel types, but am timeslicing with some other projects 🙂

[wind zinc]

at long last
9 supercomputers /min automated

[wind spade]

hey, it's trying its best 😛

[plain rivet]

a fraction of a refinery making pure iron ingots and bringing in plastic to make coated iron plates for the 25 iron plates a minute

[lime wraith]

I need to actually start planning my factories now

[sturdy crescent]

Peak

[restive sparrow]

Interesting. I always picture my stuff completely backwards from this with raw materials at the bottom and higher complexity things going up. Fun to note different ways of thinking/picturing things.

[lime wraith]

I did it this way because my tablet lets me scroll down as much as I want, but there is a top of the page

So it only makes sense for the top to be inputs

[restive sparrow]

Totally sensible!

[unique cypress]

I would do it the exact opposite way, and my tablet has the exact same limitations

[open carbon]

Reminds me of my planning.

[spark yarrow]

Currently building similar setup, going for 12 heavy encased frames, starting with 38 pure ingot refineries 🙂

[crimson moat]

floating point can't perfectly represent 0.333333333 repeating either

i have not proven either way what the behavior is, but assuming poor precision on the cycle time is safer than the alternative

[umbral barn]

90 fuel generators makes 22500 megawatts of power right? Or am I going insane

[opaque quartz]

90 * 250 =22,500

[prisma kraken]

90x250 = 22500

or 2.5 x 36 x 250 as well if you are interested in overclocking

[zenith nest]

What is this? Like the application I mean

[thorn trail]

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/1.0/production Satisfactory Tools

[plain rivet]

a double in C would represent 1/3 as 0.3333333333333333148 it would take orders of magnitudes longer than than 33.3333% to actually miscount the expected out put of 1/3

and it takes less memory. and it's easier for the processor to do the math

no way they're storing it as a decimal value truncated to 4 places. source: my ass. But i think my ass is right

[thorn trail]

not sure why anybody thinks that the game is storing the per minute value the user enters at all vs the computed cycle time of the machine based on the per minute value the user entered, as that is the value that would need to be compared against by the production code.

[plain rivet]

well they both get to the same place, the question is, when you enter that value and it calculates the cycle time, is it using a base 10 decimal rounded to 4 digits to do it? my bet is no

[wind spade]

Yes, clock rate is stored with 4 decimal digits of precision

If you enter per minute value, it calculates the clock speed and saves the clock speed (with 4 decimals of precision), the per minute value is not saved

[viral sparrow]

250 turbo motors..?

should i be scared

[open carbon]

That was for how many I needed for TPR from the awesome shop, I’m not that demented.

[oblique hollow]

You just bought them? lol fair
How much did you pay

20 coupons?

[fallow siren]

its the fastest way to unlock all phase 4 milestone, i did that just so i can use mk3 miner a bit early

[jolly holly]

is this recipe worth using?

saving the refineries to to make alumina water

[outer vale]

adds sulphur instead though

does make for a neater water setup IIRC

[oblique hollow]

As efficient as sloppy alumina + electrode scrap

Needs less water tho

But yeah, it has a neat 1:1 cycle of byproduct water to sulfuric acid

[jolly holly]

id rather add an external pipe than be completely confused with the stuff i build

[outer vale]

why would you be confused

[fallow siren]

@faint lagoon my packaged loop blueprint

[faint lagoon]

Very nice and clean, I'll have to set up something similar, thanks 😄

[jolly holly]

bc pipes are bugged

[outer vale]

unlikely

99% of piping issues are down to bad building

[jolly holly]

i have twice the needed amount going in and and all the pipes are empty

[outer vale]

probably said bad building. If you're looking for help, #1038092680493801533 with images of the setup and the offending parts may help

simple things to check would be

• does rebuilding the pipe segments help
• does it actually have enough head lift to reach that point from the previous pump

[jolly holly]

everything is connected and i had like 30 pumps

[outer vale]

30 pumps at ground level don't help if your target's 100m above

[oblique hollow]

30 badly placed pumps can do just as much as no pumps at all

It could also be that theres an open pipe connection somewhere that you cant see, so no fluid flows through

For that, images to help with troubleshooting would be needed

[plucky tusk]

Daily pipe appreciation post

[edgy leaf]

daily pipe hate post

[plain rivet]

gonna need to see the code repository

[wind spade]

devs told this multiple times, it's on wiki and people here talk about it all the time, what more do you need?

[plain rivet]

so I can make a miner spit out the "wrong" number of items in just a couple of hours?

i guess i'll go test that

[deft lichen]

you're much more likely to suffer a hitch from frame drops or autosave

[plain rivet]

i'll just turn off autosave and see. just curious. the difference between we allow you to put in up to 4 decimal places vs the number we actually use to do the calculation is limited to that seems like a weird decision. especially if they let you put in formulas to do it

[unique cypress]

Good luck testing that. The difference between 246.6667 % and 246⅔ % is just 1/30000 %. Even with a mk3 miner on a pure node, it's 1 item of difference every 100 hours

Hmm, no, I don't think the exact clock speed matters much, just the repeating decimals and the base speed

Maximum possible difference to achieve is 5e-5 % and then you have 1 item difference every 70 hours with a mk3 miner on a pure node

But to get an accurate measurement, you'd need to subtract the "correct" amount by having machines consume that, while the miner is rounded up and outputs more

Unless you have some way to get the exact in-game time

[plucky tusk]

i made a huge mistake in my liquid biofuel factory

was burning it in fuel generators instead of biomass burners

[crimson moat]

you can burn packaged liquid biofuel in biomass burners? 😄

even if you can, you'd have to burn 1 cannister per min for every 1/min of liquid biofuel so that sounds awful

[unique cypress]

It doesn't matter what you burn liq biofuel in. It's 750 MJ/m^3 regardless

Either way it's a bad idea, and if you put it into biomass burners, you're also burning canisters for no reason

[plucky tusk]

yeah but biomass burners arent always on lol

its just like an extra 2200mw overhead

[unique cypress]

That's true

[plucky tusk]

im just burning overflow im not ever gonna use that much for jetpack

[unique cypress]

But why would you burn liquid biofuel when you could just burn fuel for power

[plucky tusk]

i am burning fuel

[unique cypress]

Then just keep the biofuel

[plucky tusk]

why

its doin nothin in the storage

why would i use a game mechanic? bc i can

i havent burnt any yet since im still well below capacity

[unique cypress]

A full industrial container is only 16 hours of jetpack time

I keep mine topped up all the time until the 100 protein I put in runs out

[plucky tusk]

yeah im sure were different how strange

[wet creek]

anyone got a 2-3 belt balancer?

[crimson moat]

split A to A1, A2, B3
split B to B1, B2, B3

combine A1+B1
combine A2+B2
combine A3+B3

[wet creek]

is there somewhere a forum with all the balancers?

[thorn bane]

no that i know of since most people find them redundant

[plucky tusk]

u could probably google it tbh

i think it was worth it

[deft lichen]

some are on the wiki, but the question is why do you need balancers at all

balancers have few, niche use cases and you're better off using manifolds otherwise

[plain rivet]

yeah, i was treating it like 0.3333 instead of 33.3333% which is 0.333333 so i was getting 1 hour instead of 100 hours.

still, if use 39/128, the error is now effectively .0000005 instead of .0000003 and we're down to 69 hours

see you in 3 days

[wet creek]

what exactly is a manifold?

[deft lichen]

!wikisearch manifold

[brisk shore]

https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/index.php?search=manifold

[wet creek]

tnx

oh, thats what

[opaque token]

guys is this a correct aluminum calculation?

[deft lichen]

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/1.0/production

[opaque token]

i don't want to use the tools, i'm asking if i'm thinking correctly abt it

[deft lichen]

🤷

[thorn bane]

looks good

[deft lichen]

looks like the numbers match up yep

[unique cypress]

They have a few uses, and they're great for that, but that's for n:m balancers, not 1:m ones

[thorn bane]

but i wouldnt really advise to just "add" 240 water to get 360 since its hard to control
its way more stable if you use the 120 water to run its own alumina solution refinery and not mix it all together

also id use a simple priority merger to control the 200+100=300 silica so it can never clog

[opaque token]

fair

whats with your name btw

why no pipes

[thorn bane]

mk2 pipes dont do 600/min in long manifolds, its more like ~550/min

[deft lichen]

most often, you can avoid a n:m split too
the two use cases I'm thinking of are balancing miners into multiple freight platforms and supplying nuclear power plants

the thing with balancers is that most players can't figure them out themselves, so they need to ask here or look them up

whereas manifolds are entirely mechanical

[unique cypress]

never had issues myself

[thorn bane]

well balancers work with higher belt throughput
injection manifolds can get messy (but smart splitters + priority mergers make them super simple imo)

[unique cypress]

Yeah I use balancers to manage multiple belts of one item in one factory.

I can ignore most math and just paste a blueprint

[deft lichen]

I was about to say, an injection manifold is as complex as it gets, but it's still mechanical

[thorn bane]

injection manifolds with prio mergers are so fucking simple
just over paste them and youre good 100%

[deft lichen]

hm, how do they actually work with prio mergers?

[unique cypress]

Yeah, priority mergers simplify item management a lot

[thorn bane]

the issue before was that incorrect mergers would starve the primary feeding belt
now thats no longer an issue so theres no downside to having too many injection points

[deft lichen]

you must have a smart splitter before each merger

[thorn bane]

no if you inject early

like inject 300->780
so it never goes down too much
might even inject every 700->780 if you dont wanna do the math

[deft lichen]

I think I'd need to see a diagram to understand

otherwise, injection manifolds are 100 % reliable for any input if you build them correctly

[unique cypress]

Without priority mergers, they are not

[deft lichen]

yes they are

[unique cypress]

That's the reason why I got into balancers

[deft lichen]

or, well, prove to me that they aren't 😄 I don't want to sound stubborn

[thorn bane]

they are if you math it out and inject at the corret point

[unique cypress]

You can't inject 420 if you still have more than 60 left on the belt

If each machine consumes more than 60, you can't just inject one machine farther

So you have to split and inject twice

[thorn bane]

split the 420 and inject in 2 points

[unique cypress]

And I just could't be bothered

Balancers don't care

[deft lichen]

so injections are 420, belt is mk4 and machines consume how much? say 80?

I need these numbers to do the math

[unique cypress]

idk injections are 450, belt is mk4, machine consumes 120

that'd match quickwire into plastic limiter I think

[deft lichen]

ah, correct

yeah, you'd need to split the 450 into 225+225

[thorn bane]

something like this

in reality you can sqeeze the prio merger between the manifold so you dont have to leave space

[deft lichen]

how are the priorities and smart splitters set up?

[thorn bane]

prio to the bottom line

priority merger has priority from left

[deft lichen]

in this situation, I'd consider underclocking machines and ditching an injection manifold altogether, or reconsider how the input belts of 450 are put together

[unique cypress]

That's why I do balancers now.

I don't have to think about any of this.

I once balanced 4x360 into 4x360 because I just saw 4 belts in 4 belts out and balanced them

[deft lichen]

interesting, but what's the benefit of injecting early?

[unique cypress]

It just works no matter the item rates

[thorn bane]

you dont have to math it out

[deft lichen]

oh right 😄

and in this case, it makes sense as the input belts are completely full

so the alternative would be splitting the input belts

[thorn bane]

example 1 (ignore that its vertical xd)
this need 2000 alu ingots
and i just inject after every blender, cause its just easier

example two , injecting for ~4000 concrete

[deft lichen]

these 1.1 vertical BP setups are horrors beyond my comprehension

looks incredible

[thorn bane]

ye i know
autoconnect was a mistake

[deft lichen]

blueprints were

[thorn bane]

xd
its incredibly fast to build
but kinda destroyed my gpu by all the extra belts :D

[deft lichen]

goodness gracious

I'll have to try something like this for crystal oscillators, notoriously requiring a horrendous amount of manufacturers

[thorn bane]

but this makes stuff like 4 concrete belts super easy to build
without having to figure out how to correctly split it

[deft lichen]

yeah, makes sense

[thorn bane]

ye that tower is crystal oscillators xD
the other one is modular engines since im making warp drives

[unique cypress]

4:6 balancer lol

[thorn bane]

those are big
compared to just a bunch of prio merger + smart spltiters

[unique cypress]

Beams and EIBs on one belt, everything gets its own belt or 2

[thorn bane]

also then id have to drag 6 belts instead of 4

this also scales really well since i obviously didnt start off with 4 full concrete belts

[unique cypress]

Doesn't seem that big to me

[thorn bane]

if youve played factorio its the exact same of output priority vs balancers, my approach is output priority

[unique cypress]

To me, it's not that obvious because my factories never change after I'm done with them

[deft lichen]

clipping, opinion discarded

[thorn bane]

ye it might be different playstyles
i upgrade my main bus constantly and prefer easy to build solutions over mathed out ones

but its working really REALLY well :)

[plain rivet]

if many items can occupy the same space at the same time, balancers can be super compact. CONSUME

[unique cypress]

I mean with priority mergers, you could just build a 9:9 universal balancer and it would scale perfectly and without effort until 9 belts total

without having to change anything

[thorn bane]

balancer is O(n^2) belt compressing is O(n)

[unique cypress]

with non-universal balancers you kinda need to match it to the number of belts

but with a universal one you could leave some belts unconnected and not care

[plain rivet]

don't show me your big-o face. i was just making fun of the clipping

[deft lichen]

how is it a balancer if it's non-universal

I assume a true balancer takes belts with any input and outputs belts with equal output

[thorn bane]

a lot of "balancers" floating on the internet are not 100% universal

[plucky tusk]

balancers can be simplified into manifolds ur just overcomplicating it tbh

[unique cypress]

If it's shit

"improved"

[thorn bane]

xD

this reminds me of something

[deft lichen]

in an extreme example, you could have a 9:9 balancer and use it to balance 2:2 while leaving the other in/outputs sporadically disconnected

or am I misunderstanding?

[thorn bane]

correct

[unique cypress]

you could but 1) it'd need to be a TU and 2) it wouldn't necessarily be input and output balanced

it'd work in a factory but not for a train

[thorn bane]

if its as good balancer it is

[unique cypress]

true

[unique cypress]

this isn't lol

[thorn bane]

ah found it
#math-and-meta message
this balancer is only universal with the last two balancers
otherwise the situation i draw would reduce output

[amber umbra]

From the Factorio context, there’s a lot of “conditionals” to balancers where usually you need xyz to be true for them to actually balance. My short hand version is that I guarantee either all input belts full or all output belts consume for them to just work (which is essentially the train context).

But overall it’s a lot to unpack the whole balancer mechanic stuff.

[thorn bane]

thats why true universal balancers are BIG

[unique cypress]

in factorio

in satisfactory, it would't be that much larger

in height, maybe, not much in footprint

[thorn bane]

go build a 9x9 blancer lol

the reason i like my design #math-and-meta message
is that i can retrofit it on 2 belts by just adding on splitters and mergers
no way you could do that with a balancer

and ye output compressor vs balancer is BY MATH larger since for large blancers you need x^2 balancers to handle each lane going to each
but with belt compressor you just go down 1 lane per, so its x

[unique cypress]

There you go. A TU 9:9

How long did that take me?

5 minutes?

Including launching the game

That includes making all 3 blueprint pieces making it up

[plucky tusk]

nah u prolly had that built already

[unique cypress]

1 minute if I already had them

[plain rivet]

is that right?

i thought compressor was supposed to put it all on the fewest possible belts

[unique cypress]

It's really easy to build these if you know how

[thorn bane]

thats one use case

[thorn bane]

dont think thats universal
i guess if you have the blueprint but imo that is waaaay to many belts for something that can be done with 9 smart splitters and 9 prio mergers

[plain rivet]

what is that image supposed to do? like if the top input had a little, and the bottom input had a little doesn't it just move the top input down one

but nothing compresses?

[thorn bane]

yes it fully compresses the bottom belt so you can use it for a factory
its from something i wrote 3 years ago but havent updated for mk6 belts and prio mergers
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_rXrJ8CWyjNExcayArby3HjRpDUXV5sd8QvFrdNZxBc/edit?pli=1&tab=t.0#heading=h.i4mh5jaa6ir1

[thorn bane]

ye if the bottom 2 are almost empty then you need 2 of em since they only bring the belts down by 1 lane per

[plain rivet]

but what if you just changed the "diagonalness?"

[thorn bane]

"diagonalness"?

[plain rivet]

is that not a word. start with the top one on teh left. but i guess it wouldn't work completely either

[thorn bane]

oh you mean like "\" instead of "/"?

[plain rivet]

yeah, but my brain is dumb

that wouldn't do what i was thinking

[wind zinc]

time to start working on this :

(the crossed ones are already done)

[thorn bane]

turbo electric
turbo pressure or gtfo

[wind zinc]

turbo pressure ??!!!

[wind zinc]

nuh uh

WAIT
i dont even have turbo motors yet
LOL

[thorn bane]

ye you need particle enrichment for it which you need turbomotors for to unlock xD

[wind zinc]

WTH

[sand jewel]

what would be the most compact way to arrange this splitter?

[thorn bane]

eyyy is this IceMoonMagic/Satisfactory-Splitter-Calculator?
can make 120 by limiting via mk2 belts
so just split 400 -> 120/280 with a mk2 belt and a mk4 belt

also can just manifold by splitting and letting the 120/min side fill up

[sand jewel]

yes it is!

[unique cypress]

Why are you even using this calculator?

[wind zinc]

cuz i've gotten used to it

[sand jewel]

hmm, how should i allocate 5 train platforms between 240 plastic and 465 rubber?

[unique cypress]

It's the worst calculator I've ever used lol

By far

[sand jewel]

personally i use factoriolab (also good for other factory games)

[wind zinc]

doesnt bother me
it gets the job done

[unique cypress]

Except it doesn't

It can't calculate the recycling loop for example

[plucky tusk]

Yeah you cant expect a calculator to do everything for you

[thorn bane]

man i wish yafc would work for satisfactory

[unique cypress]

Idk SFTools does everything I need

[thorn bane]

modeler is nice for specific layouts

[plucky tusk]

My brain does everything i need no third party shit

[thorn bane]

lel

[wind zinc]

it kinda does
so IDK what you are on about
anyway, it does what i want it to
thats plenty for me

[unique cypress]

Kinda?

[plucky tusk]

I tried using a calculator app thing but it took longer for me to plan stuff on it tbh

[thorn bane]

i mean youre always best at the stuff youre used to
just keep in mind that A LOT of people think that sftool is better than satisfactory calculator

[unique cypress]

If Satisfactory Logistics wasn't so laggy, it would probably be the best

[devout stag]

I'm building a factory with resource nodes that aren't very close. Considering how long belts can get, at what distance would you say "I think using a tractor would be better"?

trains aren't an option yet

[unique cypress]

Once New Tools release (in like half a year), they'll almost definitely be the best

[devout stag]

also I'm in the dune desert (4th biome?), so the land is good

[unique cypress]

Imo, a tractor is never better than belts

There's not a single situation in which I'd automate a tractor, truck, explorer or factory cart

They're more decoration than useful item transport

[devout stag]

I see

[young nymph]

Aesthetic autonome factory that just looks fancy but has no actual profit

There's a reason why the game sounds familliar with "Satisfaction"

But yeah, no serious usage sadly

[sand jewel]

calculator just spat this out, and im like,
"Hell no."

[unique cypress]

That's why I always say this calculator is very cool but functionally useless

[dusky dust]

Hard disagree there; I've had tractors as the backbone of my early-to-midgame logistics on a few saves now, and I've never had problems with 'em

Once you know how to work with them they're 100% reliable

And I continue to put in new tractor lines as appropriate even into the late game

(Well, I suppose I don't disagree that you wouldn't use tractors/trucks/explorers/carts. It's more a tractor is never better than belts and They're more decoration than useful item transport that I strongly disagree with. :)

I picked the wrong statement to reply to. :D

[sand jewel]

i would be able to just build the manifold if i got an answer to the question
"With 465/m of Rubber and 280/m of Plastic, how many out of 5 train depots should be allocated to each?"

[unique cypress]

what?

[sand jewel]

i have 5 train depots

and 465/m rubber + 280/m plastic

how many depots should hold rubber and how many should hold plastic

[wind zinc]

i'd love to use trucks but i dont like having vehicles without roads for them to use and roads are expensive and painfull to do right IMO

same with trains
i'd have to make a good set of blueprints for them
but why not just use drones or belts ?

[unique cypress]

Is a depot a station or a platform? There's no "depots" in game. I'm assuming platform, because having 5 whole stations for just this much is a lot

[wind zinc]

and belts will always do what i want them to
while drones take 4 clicks i total to set up 😎

[sand jewel]

platform

[unique cypress]

But idk how to answer your question exactly. Depending on your belts and distances, 1 platform each might be enough

[sand jewel]

idk how far either

havent even chosen where that factory goes yet

[unique cypress]

this is what a train throughput graph looks like

[dusky dust]

Building roads is, IMO, the #1 mistake people make with vehicles in the game

[amber umbra]

@unique cypress axis labels

[unique cypress]

for mk6 belts and items stackable to 200

[dusky dust]

Vehicles work great on the map's "natural" roads, seemingly better than on foundations in many cases

[unique cypress]

zoom in

it's desmos so not well visible sadly

[amber umbra]

@unique cypress Readable axis labels (semi joke; light tone)

[dusky dust]

That does restrict your your choices a bit, of course, but natural roads are the way to go

[wind zinc]

doesnt item/min depend on the stack size ?

for trains

[unique cypress]

.

[wind zinc]

ok

[unique cypress]

ig I can just zoom in

[wind zinc]

yeah,
i just really liked the idea of a road network going around the map

[amber umbra]

Tldr: trains have higher throughput than drones but you need to build track. Both good.

[wind zinc]

and there's the *"lore" * of my save

[dusky dust]

I do like seeing people's complete road networks, for sure

[sand jewel]

idk man i just want to finish this factory's output manifold before moving on to my manufacturer-containing factory

[dusky dust]

Just definitely a choice, not a necessity. Especially early game where those kinds of bigger projects can seem pretty expensive

[wind zinc]

yeah
i'm kind of regretting the fact that i just used belts to collect stuff in the red forest : (

[amber umbra]

This topic is basically lightning debating how to do his longer distance logistics right?

[sand jewel]

the graph came up because of me i think

[wind zinc]

not really debating but we are talking about logistics and mostly trucks

[amber umbra]

Gotcha.

[wind zinc]

should'a used trucks TBH

[dusky dust]

I love seeing all my tractors running about delivering things for me. :)

[sand jewel]

but for having 3 axels, trucks have some AWFUL suspension

[opaque token]

you sneaky watermelon
i'm on 1.0

[dusky dust]

I actually don't tend to use trucks much; trains end up being strong competition for them with the 1.0 changes. Tractors are my jam

[amber umbra]

I mainly used trains, drones in my 1.0 save. Did a little bit of trucks on natural roads to avoid janky belt stuff. Trains just felt more clean, robust than trucks.

[dusky dust]

One of these days I'll melt my PC with a cart-logistics-only run

[wind zinc]

cuz seeing paths like this makes me feel like the devs intend you to use trucks to collect red forest stuff
but the belts do the job so i aint touching it

[amber umbra]

WhatDarrenPlays seemed to have some issues with long pauses interacting poorly with save/load cycles for his trucks. That and the old pathing stuff pushed me towards just trains.

[dusky dust]

Yeah, there's a surprising amount of good vehicle paths in there. Though I feel that tractors tend to fit them better

[amber umbra]

And route recording is more fiddly than just clicking a few buttons for train schedules.

[wind zinc]

too true

[thorn bane]

mans living in the past

[wind zinc]

[reminds me of my update 8 save]

[dusky dust]

Yeah, I definitely go heavy on trains once I unlock 'em. The more you invest in the train network the better it becomes

[wind zinc]

yeah, i bet trains would serve me very well too
though knowing me i would have spent 500 hours on a global network soo.....

[amber umbra]

I do wonder if the 1.1 updated blueprint snapping will actually work robustly eventually. Would help make trains much faster to build.

[unique cypress]

Even just auto-connect is already huge

[thorn bane]

auto-connect was a mistake
my gpu is fucking burning

[plucky tusk]

dude my p4 to do list is so big hahah

[wind zinc]

RIP

i think my server crashed 5 times because of it

[opaque quartz]

whats your max belt speed? I would just do one platform each for plastic and rubber at those volumes assuming you have at least mk4 belts (480/min)

[unique cypress]

It's just barely possible even with mk3s

With round trip times between 3.25 and 13.75 minutes

And if you split into 2 stations and 2 trains to set them to depart only when empty/full, it'd work even below 3.25

[mellow lake]

Does a normal iron node make 120 per second ?

[unique cypress]

no

[mellow lake]

How much?

[unique cypress]

!wikisearch miner

[plucky tusk]

mk1 60 mk2 120 m3 240

[brisk shore]

https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/index.php?search=miner

[mellow lake]

How much does a normal node produce? Of iron

[plucky tusk]

.

[mellow lake]

That’s the miner

Im confused

[plucky tusk]

uhhh

[unique cypress]

A node doesn't produce anything by itself

[opaque token]

the node produces based on purity (normal in this case) AND miner level

[mellow lake]

Doesn’t it have a maximum extraction rate? If not then there is no difference between impure and pure

[unique cypress]

Just read the wiki page man

[opaque quartz]

the amount of ore you get from a node is depedent on the tier of miner, clock speed of the miner, and the purity of the node

[opaque token]

^this

[mellow lake]

Yea I’m asking about the purity of the node

[plucky tusk]

yeah we got x just need y and z

[opaque token]

on a Normal node its 60 for mk1, 120 for mk2, and 240 for mk3 iirc

[opaque quartz]

ffs

[mellow lake]

So the miner has different extraction rates depending on what node it is on?

[opaque token]

yes