math-and-meta

[oblique hollow]

should they be maxed out?

[autumn relic]

i will overclock a couple of them

it should be 600 fuel yes

[oblique hollow]

its probably just mk 2 issue then

if you make 600/min then you dont need to overclock anything

[autumn relic]

im sorry not 600, its using 600 crude oil

making 400 fuel

all mk2 pipes

[oblique hollow]

ok that sounds like oil supply troubles then

check the refineries for missing oil

[autumn relic]

theyre slap full of oil

[oblique hollow]

all of them?

[autumn relic]

yes

[oblique hollow]

aand the refineries are all running at peak efficiency?
no fuel backing up into them?

[autumn relic]

they shut down occasionally

[oblique hollow]

find out why

[dark star]

so if my math is right, one maxed out uranium node, if taken all the way up to fisconium rods, means 24 250% uranium plants, 24 250% plutonium plants, 12 250% ficsonium plants..
60 powerplants, all needing a full 600m3 pipe of water..

is that correct? how do you guys deal with piping 60 pipes down your powerplant lane?

[spare jolt]

If they're full of oil, they wouldn't be shutting down unless they are full of byproducts

[autumn relic]

i assume because the generators arent all running to consume the fuel

[oblique hollow]

send an image of a shut down refinery's UI if you run across one

[autumn relic]

ok im staring at them right now

they have been doing better and better, just not 100% efficient yet

all running now

[sonic gust]

so now i got the numbers genetlemen:

still only for vanilla but at least a vision:

4740 sulfur / min | 4740 coal / min | 5000 nitrogen / minute | 1250 water / min (lol) | 620 iron ore / min | 13480 crude oil / min /// 750 GW - 43 GW /// rocket fuel vanilla recipes

7390 copper | 4680 Caterium | 6250 coal | 750 bauxit | 1275 raw quartz | 6325 iron ore | 3600 nitrogen | 14040 limestone (not concrete) | 6000 uranium | 4500 sulfur | infinite water /////// 750 GW - 84 GW /////// plutonium sink setup vanilla recipes

[oblique hollow]

Most nuclear builders usually build above oceans for this specific reason

[oblique hollow]

how do you arrive at 6000 uranium

[patent blaze]

lol

cant you convert into uranium

[oblique hollow]

yes but thats so expensive

[patent blaze]

true 4:1 + sam

[amber jacinth]

2.75 TW if you convert pretty much everything to uranium

[sonic gust]

goddamnit forgot the sulfur

wait mcgallon, let me edit the sulfur in on the nuclear setup then we will see

[sonic gust]

15 plutonium fuel rods

[patent blaze]

1604.27 Bauxite Bauxite 13.043% of limit (12300)
0 Caterium Ore Resource disabled
1069.51 Coal 2.528% of limit (42300)
3267.3 Copper Ore 8.854% of limit (36900)
0 Crude Oil Resource disabled
2681.49 Iron Ore 2.911% of limit (92100)
2117.94 Limestone Limestone 3.03% of limit (69900)
2624 Nitrogen Gas Nitrogen Gas 21.867% of limit (12000)
1759.54 Raw Quartz Raw Quartz 13.034% of limit (13500)
439.924 SAM SAM 4.313% of limit (10200)
2310.76 Sulfur Sulfur 21.396% of limit (10800)
1200 Uranium Uranium 100% of limit (1200)
5957.29 Water Water 0% of limit (900719925474099)

this is for 28,8 uranium + 12,8 plutonium

[sonic gust]

i dont want to burn the plutonium though, we are talking waste free

[patent blaze]

yeah i will sink mine too

[sonic gust]

or at least i am talking it

[patent blaze]

not worth the effort until actual endgame

[oblique hollow]

ok so you want 750 GW with the cost of plutonium already deducted?

[sonic gust]

thats it

[oblique hollow]

if only ficsonium wasnt so much ass

[amber jacinth]

Real

[sonic gust]

i want the ressources needed for a wastefree setup (sinking plutonium) for 750 GW (give or take with power take of the actual factory)

[patent blaze]

plutonium is ass enough as it is

[oblique hollow]

then this entire process would be a lot more feasible

[amber jacinth]

Lots of site feedback on those recipes lol

[oblique hollow]

ficsonium was the one that should make plutonium feasible

but its so expensive its not really worth it

[sonic gust]

yeah i think they will patch the ficsonium unfortunately then our planning will go to WASTE once again, thanks for nothing.

well its a flex, or a sam-overproduction-sink if you will

[oblique hollow]

you can try to account for some amount of ficsonium to reclaim the plutonium

i can attempt to run the math at a much smaller scale

and you can then just x 100 it

[amber jacinth]

Best thing they could do for ficsonium is add new alts. Wouldn't break current setups

[dark star]

ive been looking at what the greeny's calculator suggests for making fisconium rods, and it kind of makes me cry

[spare jolt]

I wonder if someone has created a topic on a QA site about ficsonium balancing

[amber jacinth]

Many people

[spare jolt]

Then they really should consider making it cheaper

[patent blaze]

its just total chaos lol

[spare jolt]

4 patches have passed and 1 on the way, I'm pretty sure they could've done that if they wanted

[dark star]

i think they should keep it as complicated, cause i like the challenge, the reward just needs to be better

[amber jacinth]

https://questions.satisfactorygame.com/post/66f80dcb772a987f4a8d6658

[patent blaze]

for reference this my setup for uranium AND plutonium

you guys are right, they should make it simpler

[amber jacinth]

The complexity isn't really the issue.. more the insane SAM usage

[dark star]

also the relative small energy payoff for needing all those fluctuating machines

[patent blaze]

they could reduce the trigon cost right

[amber jacinth]

Yes

[patent blaze]

like make that 50/min instead of 400

[amber jacinth]

Alts for these endgame items would be fantastic, tbh

[glad vigil]

The entire nuclear pasta chain

It is terrifying

[amber jacinth]

That's another thing that bugged me- no other parts use space elevator stuff in crafting, yet singularity cells do...

[glad vigil]

I feel like singularity cells are just here for flex

Like when you are already done with final stage

It actually takes surprisingly low amounts of stuff to finish the last stage

[oblique hollow]

If i go with minimum plutonium and maximum uranium, then
25 Uranium > 13.125 GW, uses only about 1.8 GW

its funny that the numbers of uranium > plutonium > ficsonium, in regards to power, are 100%, 50% and 25%
for a total of 175%

(aka plutonium and ficsium allow you to boost your original uranium power by 75%, WITHOUT alts that increase plutonium output. And without slooping)

the copper cost hurts the most still though

[sonic gust]

mmmm

what do you mean with minimum plutonium maximum uranium?

[oblique hollow]

you can use certain alts to increase plutonium yield

[sonic gust]

yes but thats not really what we want if we sink? are you talking about waste free?

[oblique hollow]

but this increases production cost and you need more ficsonium production to process the waste

minimizing plutonium minimizes wasting resources on something you will just sink
if you want the points then yea you kinda wanna max out plutonium

[sonic gust]

no no

I wont even go there. just sink the plutonium rods and be good about it

at least thats the current planning

[oblique hollow]

this above is so you make as little plutonium as possible

so you also make as little ficsonium as needed

[sonic gust]

mmm I see what you are getting at. allow very little plutonium and ficsonium to optimize overall energy output basically?

[oblique hollow]

yeah, so you get more power out and dont waste plutonium rods as much

still, the cost of ficsonium is a lot

[leaden cosmos]

More that making ficsonium is a whole thing 😄

[sonic gust]

yes interesting point.

[oblique hollow]

it might be worth it to sloop the ficsonium encoder

as with that you end up with exactly 50% extra power VS 25

[leaden cosmos]

The dmr cost ends up trivial. But yeah doubles your power from them

[oblique hollow]

for a total power yield of 200%
100% being uranium, the other 100% being 50% plutonium, 50% ficsonium (slooped)

for every 30 Uranium rod nukes, you need 15 plutonium nukes and 15 ficsonium nukes this way (assuming slooped Ficsonium Rod Encoder)

else it is 30 > 15 > 7.5

[leaden cosmos]

Or if you do go for max uranium maximise plutonium you end up with 101 uranium reactors
90 plutonium reactors
45 ficsonium reactors

[oblique hollow]

vs how many uranium reactors?

[leaden cosmos]

Thats fully sharded 🙂

[oblique hollow]

yes but still, how many uranium nukes for max uranium max plutonium?

im more interested in their ratio to each other

does it become 1 : 1?

[safe heron]

And what if you just sink plutonium nontheless. You have the 100% power and dont need ficsonium chain xD

[sonic gust]

you could also possibly reduce overall ressource cost per power if you use the plutonium rods for some drone-fueling. but thats another calculation overall.

[oblique hollow]

drones need incredibly little plutonium

so little in fact that it becomes unfeasible

[sonic gust]

ye depending on how much drones you want to use at least its better than sinking and saves fuel

[oblique hollow]

i think one rod lasts for hours in one drone

[sonic gust]

really? 😄

jesus 😄

[sonic gust]

they are faster even haha. didnt know that, thanks!

[oblique hollow]

for every 1/min battery, you need 0.24 rods PER HOUR
thats ignoring the speed boost and thus reduced fuel usage over time

[leaden cosmos]

0.06 plutonium rods per world crossing trip

[oblique hollow]

Either way: take the values from the screenshot i posted and multiply by about 66.35
that gets you the cost for 750 GW (WITH ficsonium)

roughly equals:

4495 Bauxite
6489 Caterium
9811.5 Coal
18282.7 Copper
696 Oil
9753 Iron
10450 Limestone
2637 Nitrogen
4835 Quartz
9289 SAM
2256 Sulfur
1656.25 Uranium

Worst offenders: Copper and SAM, as expected

Sulfur is surprisingly low

[grand jasper]

oh god i spent so many hours yesterday workoing out how trains work on a higher level than 1 train on aline

it was pain

[willow kraken]

Did you guys notice that the lower part of the power augmenter beam have more ejection power?

[sonic gust]

thanks a lot my man. I think I also remember your nickname, you helped me years ago with something else. update 7 i think was when I saw you back then. so that speaks volumes for you. guess you deserve your color ❤️

[leaden cosmos]

Unless you sloop 🙂

[oblique hollow]

of course but thats a lot of slooping
the easiest thing to sloop here is the Quantum Encoder so you need 14% less resources

but 66 encoders is....

💀

even with overclocking thats more than 100 sloops

[leaden cosmos]

You actually want to sloop the trigons 🙂

[oblique hollow]

hm yes if you overclock them its only 26 constructors (ish) and 26 sloops

[leaden cosmos]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1a-bACz1ju7ETafl1aWmKlMiCvJ9rKHO9njoILzwj6QM/edit?usp=drivesdk

I may have spent too long thinking about where to sloop ❤️

[oblique hollow]

would slooping the converter work too?

its 3 constructors per converter after all

and they only cost 2 sloops

without shards

that seems so save about 1/3rd of the sloops, doesnt it? @leaden cosmos

i know converters are power hungry

[leaden cosmos]

You can sloop converters. But the only converter is dmr which has a very low sam cost

[oblique hollow]

i mean the trigons need ficsite

and that comes from converters

converters have a sloop cost of 2 and make 30
i guess it comes down to the power demand if you overclock them?

[leaden cosmos]

Ah yep. Have them slooped 🙂

If your building 1.75tw nuclear. Power demand isnt a factor 😅

[oblique hollow]

true

I guess it might be worth to write a list of which recipe is the most "sloop-able" in any context

guess i'll do that along with other things when i do the wiki alt recipe analysis

[raw halo]

Would you say this is an ok way to think of water physics?

Red is input, all the individual lines on the right are output

[leaden cosmos]

Until the pipe is full. Junctions work like splitters and evenly split

[pure crow]

In a sense, it's only the relations between "full" inputs and "full" outputs that matter, so if you only have 1 input the diagram reduces to 1 input pipe branching off to ? outputs.

(as far as pipe throughput is concerned)

[raw halo]

I have like 13 coal power plants per floor, and I have three floors

I always thought the junctions went off the momentum of the water, so the more velocity in the X axis the water has the less likely it is to go across the Y axis

[topaz hedge]

Jeeze...

[raw halo]

Another thing, this is all if I can get my game to work again

[pure crow]

Oh, you were trying to figure out what the average throughput of those individual pipes were, rather than net throughput? That's a tough one with how random the fluid movement is...

[leaden cosmos]

He can probably ballpark with treating it lile splitters

[oblique hollow]

pipe logic is a bit too complex to nail it on paper
Cant 100% predict what will flow where

its kinda a major nerf of the system

[pure crow]

The most predictable behavior of the fluid is its preference for flowing downwards, but even then it mostly just behaves like a wave lapping back and forth against the shores in the pipe.

Pretty annoying to try to observe.

[topaz hedge]

Yeah junctions don't work that way. Just keep the pipes full and you won't have any issues

[pure crow]

Speaking of junctions... do they allow simultaneous maximum flow in 2 directions? (Or, even more leniently, or perhaps equivalently, 2 non-conflicting paths?)

[unborn ermine]

if I input 600, and split that 600 evenly, it will do 300
if its in a mk2 output?
The values will even out to 300 flow, but vary *slightly * up and down for each side.

[pure crow]

(Mk2 pipes assumed. If 2 inputs to a junction are 600, with 2 free ports -- does it output 600 from the other 2 ports of the junction?)

[unborn ermine]

that I havent tried.

[oblique hollow]

they do allow that

junctions arent limited to 600/min total

[pure crow]

Nice

[raw halo]

I wanna know the best way to evenly distribute coal and water

I’ll be back tonight; we can continue the dispute then

[pure crow]

So all I need is that: a set of paths exists such that at most 2 paths go through the same junction.

[grand jasper]

how do i get rid of my dark matter residue? i get a bunch over from making AI servers

[oblique hollow]

Dark Matter Crystals

[pure crow]

On paper, for liquids? You'd have to use that which must not be named... ||Valves||

[oblique hollow]

theres an alt that turns Dark Matter Residue to Crystals without diamonds

[pure crow]

They tend to be more trouble than they're worth, though. But the consumption rate of water for a coal generator is tied to the consumption of coal, so therefore it suffices only to distribute the consumption of coal.

(water is cheap, too, cough)

[raw halo]

Will I be able to increase the pipe length of the center pipe vertically? Or will I need to have all the pipes noodle up to a higher output?

[grand jasper]

i guess ill go hunt for alts again for now. servers look like a big order and i have build ficsite and time crystals already.
can you squeeze some power shards out of that as well? probably right?

[oblique hollow]

a few

[pure crow]

Not sure what the question is. The game allows you to build anything.

[thorn trellis]

wtf why so much copper

[oblique hollow]

Nuclear Pasta for Singularity cells

[thorn trellis]

o

[oblique hollow]

thats the main issue with it right now

[pure crow]

(with some effort, of course)

[thorn trellis]

seems like a lot

[oblique hollow]

this is whithout most alts for copper

so you CAN reduce it a bunch with alts and somersloop boosting

[pure crow]

If you're asking about how to build vertical pipes, it's probably easiest using the AWESOME Shop's pipe wall supports off of 4m foundations.

[oblique hollow]

use pure or leached or tempered copper and its already down to around 7600/min copper

but that introduces other resources

[thorn trellis]

i now see why people say copper is very limited

[oblique hollow]

Nuclear Pasta is the main offender here

its the one single ultra-consumer

Using somersloops in the constructors is very much recommended

[thorn trellis]

the copper ones?

[oblique hollow]

yep. Copper Powder

[thorn trellis]

wouldnt it be better to use sloops in the ending product one

[oblique hollow]

much cheaper than using 4 somersloops in the particle accelerator

[thorn trellis]

ah

[oblique hollow]

you can overclock the constructors so you only need like one sloop for every 2 accelerators making pasta

[astral hornet]

Most of my base is built around the rocky desert at the moment (with some expansion to the western beaches for oil stuff). I'm at the point where I want to build a rocket fuel factory for power but also as drone fuel. Was thinking of doing it in the blue crater (like many).

I plan on having satellite factories around the map that build specific items and then get drone transported to other factories needing those items (e.g. a cooling system factory that provides cooling systems to supercomputers and turbo motors) . Do I need to worry about fly time between rocky desert and blue crater?

Or should I start relocating my main base to the red bamboo forest to have it more centralized so fly time is less of an issue?

[pure crow]

Well, it usually translates to power costs since, if you're having a fly time issue, you probably just want to run more drones. The relative increase in fly time is, neglecting the drone's weird pathing, purely a matter of distance, and that increase in distance is, depending on the likely design, but most commonly related to a circle -- in that it is most likely no more than the radius of a circle, compared to its diameter, at most 2x.

So, I guess you should test a drone or two and see if its time or projected additional power costs are tolerable for your use case(s).

[astral hornet]

hmmm, never played with them, but yeah, guess trial and error will be best 😅

[pure crow]

Drones reportedly have some weird pathing that mess with the geometric estimation model I suggested, sadly.

The nice thing about the model -- it implies that any relative difference in fly time "should" be resolvable by simply running double the drones.

[astral hornet]

can you have multiple drones do the same route between ports, like trains or trucks?

[pure crow]

Don't think so.

(but I'm not really a drone expert, so, take anyone else's word over mine over their details)

[magic island]

in general, you do get the most bang for your buck by using sloops on the end product

but Nuclear Pasta is an exception because the two preceding parts are made in assemblers and constructors. so you can save sloops and power by boosting the copper powder and/or PCCs, and still get the same net pasta

[thorn trellis]

ah

[unborn ermine]

Yep testing that rn

[pure crow]

Oh, same route, I misread the question.

[unborn ermine]

They circle like a vulture

[supple hull]

what's the best recipe for radio control units resource wise?

[amber umbra]

The alts are tradeoffs not better/worst.

[unborn ermine]

Location/resource wise they can be better/worse, before considering grand logistics tbh.

[magic island]

They can be made from such a variety of resources that you kinda have to look at it in terms of which particular resources you want to save

I tend to prefer RC System if I have oil products handy, and R Connection Unit otherwise

[grand jasper]

wtf when did i enter france

[spice radish]

Ok how much reinforced iron plates will 300 iron ore per/min get you a min?

And i will be using the cast screws alternate

someone dm me the math please

[fierce ruin]

There is tools for that

[unborn ermine]

Tools ™️

[plucky violet]

Guys i fear my power plant setup may not be ficsit code

[grand jasper]

ngl pink diamonds look neat.

[plucky violet]

Coal, up high, water, further down:
My Solution: Bring coal slight down, then back up then bring water way up high.

Plus as you can see, the way i connect the water might be seen as odd, little diagram under last photo.

[snow maple]

25 RIP/min

[oblique venture]

is turbofuel really better than normal fuel from a energy perspective?

[wind spade]

that really depends what do you mean by "better"
one unit of TF has 2000 MJ
one unit of fuel has 750 MJ

so one to one it indeed has more energy. However their material costs and production complexities are different, so it's kinda hard to compare them. Not to mention alt recipes you can use to change the requirements

[magic island]

A useful way to compare fuel power is to look at "What resources and power do I need to fill X number of generators?".

Like, say you want to operate 30 generators. That requires 600 fuel, or 225 Turbofuel, or 125 Rocket Fuel, or 90 Ionized Fuel. And since a generator is a generator, all of those options have the same gross power output of 7500 MW. So your most power-efficient option is the one that costs the least power to produce, maximizing your net power.

The exact comparison depends on your recipe choices, but

• the 225 Turbofuel can be made with a slightly smaller power footprint than the 600 regular fuel
• the 125 Rocket Fuel can be made for significantly less power than either
• the 90 Ionized Fuel will always cost way more power to produce than any of the other options (still net positive, but less bang for your buck than even a vanilla Fuel plant)

[ember fractal]

I feel like ionized was never meant for huge power plants. It's more for jetpacking around.

Even as vehicle fuel, it doesn't make sense to go for such a big investment when rocket fuel is already decent and can be made way easier in bigger quantities

Or perhaps it's just a way for people to sink their power shards

[magic island]

yeah, it is the best jetpack fuel, you just don't want to mass-produce it

all it makes sense to do is take some spare shards/crystals and use them to upgrade a small amount of rocket fuel for personal use

[ember fractal]

If you're producing like 5 shards per min, and you already have like 10 ISCs full of em, might as well start overflowing them into ionized production

[grand jasper]

this will be fun.but not today

[prisma kraken]

sinking the shards and making the dmr byproduct for other processes, yeah

what i don't really get is the dark ion recipe

maybe it exists so that you can take the excess dmr you kick off from shards and use it up?

[ember fractal]

Dark ion is not very efficient

[prisma kraken]

yeah, the only thing i saw that i found nifty is that the converter is cheap to sloop

[magic island]

in principle spare Dark Crystals could be situationally more convenient than spare Power Shards

but the numbers are hard to justify

also there's the annoyance of having to package and re-package, because the solid output is already used for the Compacted Coal

[prisma kraken]

unfortunately, said converter doesn't have 2 output pipes for the 1000/min you get with sloops & shards

it can effectively make at 150% OC with 2 sloops 600 ion fuel from 720 rocket and 120 dm crystal

kinda hard to get jazzed about that

[ember fractal]

Yah I was thinking the same

You can't fully exploit this recipe

[prisma kraken]

if there were a way to get the 1000/min out, maybe it would be okish?

i just don't understand why the recipe exists, it doesn't really feel like it solves any problems

maybe just to give a simple way to make IF

imho, everything about the converter is sort of strange

[true junco]

Stop, they will start asking for mk3 pipes again. Lol

[prisma kraken]

yeah, thought occurred to me, but i can't see them wanting them for THAT recipe

maybe though an mk3 pipe would fix the problems with mk2 though, right?

[amber jacinth]

s' exactly what I'm doing- 300/min rocket is going to ion fuel production, which uses the overflow of power shards from storage so nothing backs up.
Thankfully, it's a closed system, so if it does back up it's not a huge concern.

It's pretty nice. Good jetpack fuel, plus auto power shards and overflow protection for the whole system.

[prisma kraken]

i have something big in mind for ion fuel, i'm just nowhere near the point of building it

[true junco]

I suspect that higher marks for pipes will just exacerbate the issue.

[prisma kraken]

sarcasm doesn't transfer well in text chat 😉

[true junco]

Ah. 😆

[balmy moth]

wich fuel its the most efficien?

[ember fractal]

For what

[outer iris]

Liquid Bio for longevity and turbo for speed

[balmy moth]

just unlocked oil have acces to 600m3 2 pure 1 normal

[ember fractal]

Make some fuel

[outer iris]

Disregard what i said

[ember fractal]

Or turbo

[prisma kraken]

each fuel is worth some amt of MJ per unit. they burn at different rates in the generators. Of them, yellow fuel & liquid biofuel are the lowest and easiest to make

[ember fractal]

Yellow fuel, courtesy of the hub toilet

[prisma kraken]

turbo, rocket fuel & ion fuel are more complex processes with alternate recipes you can mix and match for ease of building or efficiency of given resource types

[balmy moth]

how do you keep with biomass i was having a hard time untill i got coal unlocked

[prisma kraken]

calling one better than another isn't something really worthwhile, but general thought and experience so far is that getting rocket fuel made for power is the best effort per megawatt

you don't really keep making that, I use LBF in the jetpack and gather some wood now & then (mostly when clearing an area to build) and really have never been wanting for extra

burning it in continuous on power gens is something that you'd be crazy to really do

[balmy moth]

i see

[prisma kraken]

really before they allowed its use in the jetpack, i was thinking it should probably just be removed from the game entirely

i kind of like what they did with it all - gives a late game use for something you built early, and i think that's a good thing

lbf is really very good in the jetpack for its slow sustained burn

[ember fractal]

If you have packaged ionized? Is there a point to still use lbf?

[prisma kraken]

i've tried ion fuel in the jetpack, has some zip to it, yeah

is it worth making? idk

[amber jacinth]

lbf burns for longer continuously, but ionized can hold you at a steady altitude for longer, due to its high acceleration.

[prisma kraken]

in combat, i like LBF's ability to stay in the air until everything is dead, that's a personal taste

after a few 1000 hrs in the game, i opt for brutal quick combat, ya know?

[patent blaze]

Doesnt ionized burn for longer than biofuel

[amber jacinth]

Ion burns for 7 sec, LBF for 12.5

[fringe pawn]

To me, ionized fuel is the only suitable replacement for liquid biofuel. I also really enjoy that long burn time in combat.

[amber jacinth]

SLightly below that on the wiki page

[unborn ermine]

its probably what they are mentioning, overall length

[amber jacinth]

Flight time is definitely a useful metric, however

[fringe pawn]

If you're tapping, the functional burn time of ionized fuel becomes comparable to liquid biofuel, because you can get away with shorter taps. Biofuel will definitely still go longer in combat, but I appreciate the better vertical climb of ionized.

[unborn ermine]

That one though, is a better chart than I dumped
gotta love charts with the same information I wanted to share.

[patent blaze]

Wtf

It literally says ionized burns for longer even if u hold it lol

You guys are tripping

[prisma kraken]

stick them both in the depot and switch when you want 🙂

[copper seal]

@amber jacinth

[amber jacinth]

What's the whole network look like?

[fringe pawn]

Ionized is the point where I'm comfortable giving up switching. Because then you've got all the advanced weapons to kill stuff super quick anyway

[prisma kraken]

i suggest you read the fine print again, it says while tapping the burn button

[unborn ermine]

you sure about that?

[prisma kraken]

i think lbf still has the longest actual burn time?

[copper seal]

10 Refineries making fuel + residue, sets of 5 combine into 2 lines, and the 2 lines then combine into 1, then that one line gets split twice, first into 8 fuel generators and then into 12 later down the line

the 12 get proper fuel, the first 8 don't

[patent blaze]

?????????

[copper seal]

they're mk2 pipes

[patent blaze]

Bruh the first wiki is missing info is that fandom

[unborn ermine]

The WRONG, and ABANDONED wiki?

[prisma kraken]

beat me to it

[patent blaze]

Has to be

[unborn ermine]

wikigg is the one you want

[patent blaze]

When will they delete that wiki

Fandom

[unborn ermine]

its fandom, its going to exist as long as it gets traffic

[amber jacinth]

That's hard to visualize

Got pictures?

[prisma kraken]

when fandom goes out of business for being crappy

(or when rupert murdoch buys them)

[copper seal]

i don't, can't get high enough with biofuel jetpack xd

[fringe pawn]

The only people who still visit fandom are running ad blockers probably, so they don't notice how crappy it really is

[unborn ermine]

true, I had popped onto that site for another wiki the other day just to steal an image

[copper seal]

wait im a genius

[copper seal]

red is what i intended, the green parts i just tried to fix my current issues with, not sure if they're helping or not

the 10 bd shaped machines aren't currently hooked up

[amber jacinth]

I mean... that looks fine.. is it the two clusters of 4 that aren't getting enough, or?

[copper seal]

yes

the first 8

the other 12 are getting enough

[amber jacinth]

Odd... the pipes legit next to those gens have fuel in them..

[copper seal]

only now cause i've turned them literally all off

[amber jacinth]

ah

Only potential issue may be the bottom-fed pipes there

[copper seal]

i thought the same but i'd preffer to keep the pipes mostly underground if possible

so i've been trying pumps too

[amber jacinth]

fair

Pumps would not help at all, as the machines doing the feeding are on the same verticality as the consumers

[copper seal]

i want them to like, come up to feed a row of machines to then go back down again

ah ye, they are

i still have to clean up some stuff but thats roughly it

honestly probably gonna tear it down again in like 200hrs cause im not completely satisfied

but i at least want to understand liquids so next time its easier

[amber jacinth]

I assume you let the pipes saturate with fluid and then turn everything on?

[copper seal]

its been such a pain in the ass

i tried that but eventually they still ran out

[amber jacinth]

Odd

[copper seal]

i'm trying it again now

[amber jacinth]

And the fuel refineries are not backing up at all?

[copper seal]

seem to be holding on now

also, from my refineries, the one on the left side of the first pic i sent w/ the lines, all their internal buffers were filled too

they still are

but not the other row =|

[amber jacinth]

Hmm... issue with 600m3 in a pipe, perhaps? ALthough only 400m3 is going through, so that makes no sense lol

[copper seal]

ye its only 400m3

and i made sure everything is mk2

i built everything mk2 to begin with

[amber jacinth]

Good, good

Honestly, I am as stumped as you are 😛

[copper seal]

seems to be holding on now =| i dont get it

i tried filling it before starting it up, i tried cheesing it with a buffer, tried pumps or connecting all the ends

nothing worked, but now i just let the pipes fill again and this time it did work =|

[unborn ermine]

Yeah I had issues in my RF plant until I swapped one pipe from bottom to top feeding.
Defo worth flipping that around. even to test on one machine group.

[copper seal]

HA

nope :) the first 8 ran out again

fluids are so much fun :)))))))))

again

[unborn ermine]

Yeah I think its for sure the fact that the feeding pipes are comming up from the floor then feeding from that line.
Try going higher, then looping that feed back.

[amber jacinth]

If you put a valve on the pipe going to those 2x 4 gens, what happens?

do they cancel headlift? Can't remember.

[ember fractal]

Are nuke nobelisk worth it?
Can they kill quick?

[copper seal]

idk, but its the same, it just gets a whole burst of flow rate and then it goes away again

[unborn ermine]

Also a test with a pump before feeding into that array would be a good idea if its simple enough to add for a test.

[copper seal]

also i made sure i didn't powerslug any

ah i thin k iknow what the issue is now

[unborn ermine]

at minimum I would say, feed them first, then plug them in one by one once the pipe is full if you are sure nothing is wrong.

[copper seal]

pumps before junctions don't work

[unborn ermine]

not that, feeding into the fuel gen line

[copper seal]

ye but i have one main line right?

and i split it off twice into 4 different directions

i had the pump infront of the junction

i removed that one and put the pumps on the parts that go to the sides instead and now it seems to be working, better atleast.

seem to be filling up now

[pure crow]

I like the idea of using them for trees, but their AOE is so large you probably can't use them in direct combat without involving yourself. But, if you were just using it for indiscriminate and totally ethical bombing, maybe...

[unborn ermine]

This is what I mean by "go higher and loop back" earlier
Same thing with the fuel gens

[copper seal]

also for some reason this pipe is saying it has 0 flowrate?

[fringe pawn]

I use nukes in my hoverpack farming loop. They are faster in this scenario.

[copper seal]

maybe, but its ugly

[unborn ermine]

it works

[copper seal]

im gonna let it run, maybe its fixed

still don't understand why that pipe says it has 0 flowrate even though its full

[unborn ermine]

Rocket Fuel is nicer for it, since you can just hide the loop in the floor sideways
(gasses are nice like that)

[copper seal]

idk whats going on anymore

whatever i fixed it now I think

i was complaing about it before, building pipes and working with liquids is just bad because even if they're attached, they're not always

i had to delete all the pipes that were attached and filled but said 0m3 flowrate and redo them and suddenly it works

[unborn ermine]

nice

[copper seal]

atleast i have 6200MW now, i won't have to touch this for a while, i'm just gonna turn the poly residue into plastic and rubber and take a break from oil lmao

[amber jacinth]

Aluminum would like to know your location

[copper seal]

thats for later, didn't unlock that yet i think

im still working on phase 3 parts

as you can see in the screenshots lol

[prime zodiac]

I can speak to the pain of oil

I just fixed mine (I hope)

Someone's comment here about switching all the machines off and letting machine buffers fill seems to have saved me

[vapid gorge]

pre flooding systems is a standard move yes

[prime zodiac]

Fluid mechanics have really spiked the complexity of this game for me lol

[pure crow]

Most of my problems were caused entirely by just cheaping out on pumps and trying to use 1 pump for the entire world.

I now use slightly more pumps.

[vapid gorge]

keep it simple
loop your manifolds
flood your systems

That avoids almost every issue

[prime zodiac]

Okay, so looping manifolds was the right idea

I was wondering if that was a mistake on my part

[vapid gorge]

I recommend this loop, might be the most stable option

[prime zodiac]

Oh oops

Ive done horizontal loops instead lol

Albeit most of them the loop is above machine intake

Idk if that makes a difference

[pure crow]

Yeah, having it above machine intake and having more pipes than needed is probably an easier way to think of it.

[vapid gorge]

horizontal loops are also generally fine

you can technically get bottom loops working too but I don't know how reliable that is

[pure crow]

A single-input "loop" as shown above is "like" having two pipes, one which "covers" the first half and the other which "covers" the second half... if pipes had a clear direction anyway.

[vapid gorge]

it's essentially there to manage back flow

If the fluid in the middle moves backwards into a space made empty by a machine fluid can come from the other direction

[prime zodiac]

So this is the weird solution I thought of to deal with having more HOR than one pipe could handle in a loop. Is this actually doable or am I gonna have problems down the line

Also, sorry the angle sucks, its a tight space lol

[pure crow]

Uh, so you randomly looped a couple parts of the same pipe to each other? Hard to tell.

[vapid gorge]

I'm not sure what is going on here sorry

can you draw a diagram?

[pure crow]

If you have, for example, a pipe that looks like this, where the "=" represents 2 pipes and + junctions, then the "=" isn't necessarily doing anything, it's always gonna be bottlenecked by the two single side pipes.
Output <- + = + -> Output

Any transformations in pipe throughput need to be propagated all the way to the outputs (and from the inputs), clearing any bottlenecks, to change pipe system behavior.

[prime zodiac]

I cannot figure out how to draw a diagram, let me see if I can explain. I have several machines producing HOR until it reaches a certain point where the pipe throughput is limited. I then create a new set of pipes separate down the rest of the line. The original set goes above the new set and then merges back into the loop after a point where most of the new fluid should be used up by the turbofuel refineries.

I have no idea if that made sense lol

But all my refineries are now at 100% and my buffer isn't filling up so

And all of the turbofuel should be getting burned in generators so my thought was that it shouldn't cause any backup

[vapid gorge]

I literally cannot create images in my head

[prime zodiac]

Hey, same here

Aphantasia?

[vapid gorge]

just do a top down view

[amber jacinth]

Injection manifold? Sounds like it’d work fine

[vapid gorge]

ehhhhhhhhh, they can work but are on my list of 'less reliable' solutions

[amber jacinth]

Uneven/injection manifolding is a bit more flexible with pipes than belts, I’ve found.

[prime zodiac]

Separation

[vapid gorge]

really? with belts you just have to know the point they come in on and have a smart splitter set to over flow just before the injection

[prime zodiac]

Stack

[amber jacinth]

And I agree, 600 pipes do be fine

[prime zodiac]

Merge

[vapid gorge]

ok but what direction is this all going in?? xD and why are you trying to hurt yourself with that buffer?

[prime zodiac]

I was told buffers help lol

[vapid gorge]

remove that person from your friend list

[prime zodiac]

And its an output loop that goes directly into turbofuel refineries

I guess I never considered a specific flow direction

[vapid gorge]

there's extremely specific ways you can put buffers - unless you know exactly what you're doing you're more likely to mess up a system with them

can you take some overhead shots?

and then use snipping tool to draw arrows?

[prime zodiac]

So was this oil tower with a buffer a bad idea?

Uh, Ill try

[pure crow]

So basically you, in the terms that people usually use, looped around the first few consumers. That sounds like it should work.

[prisma kraken]

buffers tend to screw pipe flows up you should avoid using them except to keep flow continuous into/out of a train station (or for actually storing fluids which is rather unuseful)

[pure crow]

(If you're not constructing a grid by default, but rather starting with a manifold anytime you want to increase the pipe throughput of a system, normally you would bisect the system by putting a pipe at its center. The result is, by the way, that you end up with something that looks like a grid, if you kept bisecting over and over)

[long shuttle]

I'm making a factory that takes in all the bauxite and produces the max amount of aluminum i can within reason and I'm not sure how to make sure the bauxite im bringing on trains is load balanced

Should I use multiple output stations? i only have one currently

[pure crow]

Uh... I was prepared to say it was fine, but this configuration doesn't look good. Because the buffer is being fed from above, all the liquid is trapped in the buffer.

Any buffer, to serve its purpose as a storer of excess, must be fed from below.

[vapid gorge]

yeah would have to see the whole thing. At best I would say it does nothing

[prisma kraken]

well, really the max ore a train will fit per car is around 600/min which gives the train a 5-6 minute round trip window

[pure crow]

More generally, it's recommended that all buffers be at the very top of any pipe system.

Just having buffers in the middle is kind of risky, even if it may sometimes make "some" sense.

[prime zodiac]

I mean, if someone wants to pop and see whatever the hell I am doing, theyre welcome to lol

[prisma kraken]

as such, i recommend when moving ore to groom the train input per car to be 600/min through splitting or merging on the input side

[prime zodiac]

It seems to be working so far, but I don't wanna suddenly have my whole ass grid go down at some point

[pure crow]

You have the right idea, but if you're only looping around once, it is actually probably better to go straight to the end of the pipe rather than cutting in somewhere randomly in the middle.

(or at least, it sounded like it)

[long shuttle]

ooh i hadn't thought to force the input like that

a bit annoying since ive already placed all the stations but i can figure it out

[prisma kraken]

it makes the logistics in the factory somewhat simpler

[prime zodiac]

This is my first time playing any game like this before, so its all so hard to understand lol

And I am about to start plastic and rubber which has me even more messed up

[prisma kraken]

you'll get it, there's a lot to take in. take it slow and have fun learning! we'll be here to answer questions 🙂

[pure crow]

I was considering implementing rate limiters for sushi belts specifically actually... do they work well enough if I add a few redundant loops? Never tried rate limiters.

[amber jacinth]

Byproducts go brrrrr

[prisma kraken]

it seems a lot more complicated than it is because they throw so many recipes to choose from at you all at once

[vapid gorge]

eh it's fine. Is this a fuel power station?

[prime zodiac]

Yes

[pure crow]

If you've already done Heavy Modular Frame, you've done one of the most complicated recipes in the game already.

That thing has so many steps. Plastic and Rubber only have a few compared to HMF.

Byproduct shenanigans aside, I suppose.

[vapid gorge]

my advice? accept your first big fluid system won't run at 100% and learn from it.

then go into your next big fluid system a bit more prepared and maybe ask some questions about layout first

[prisma kraken]

the way i do my first oil build of the game is to take 300 crude, and run that into 10 refineries - 5 making plastic & 5 for rubber. that'll spit out 450 HOR as byproduct which you should convert to coke and either sink or burn in coal gens for more power

[prime zodiac]

My two manufacturers running the Heavy Encased Frame alt

[pure crow]

you're in the big leagues, I give you my official stamp of approval 👍

[long shuttle]

omg thank you for this lol. i've somehow managed to make 600/m work perfectly without having to expand any stations

[prime zodiac]

lol thanks

This is what I was thinking of doing for rubber and plastic and just burning off the leftover fuel but I probably just made things more complicated for myself tbh

[prisma kraken]

i tend to defer making fuel power for a while until i have all the alts i need to build something that won't be torn down

[prime zodiac]

That was more or less what this was supposed to be since I had Turbo Heavy Fuel which seemed to make things a bit more straigtforward

[prisma kraken]

i manage to do that by making a pretty large coal power plant earlier in the game

[prime zodiac]

I originally had two coal plants of 18 gens a piece

[prisma kraken]

yeah, that's the worst of the TF recipes

[prime zodiac]

Really?

Just goes to show how much I Still have to learn then lol

[prisma kraken]

yeah, both default and blended tf are much more efficient either on crude or sulfur

[prime zodiac]

Oh well. Lesson for next time lol

[prisma kraken]

heavy tf imho is something that you only really want to use for rifle ammo

[pure crow]

yeah it's funny, I have plans on how to replace-in-place... and yet.. I don't use it most of the time. xD

[prisma kraken]

i've used it for power when i just didn't quite have enough as a quick thing to build in previous game versions, but at this point, you can kind of get over a power hump with finding 10 more sloops

[pure crow]

well, I suppose I use 'em a bit for replacing fuel generators with higher tier fuel generators....

[prime zodiac]

All I know is Ive managed to get 20GW with 20 refineries and 35 Generators lol

[prisma kraken]

it seems like a lot now 🙂

[prime zodiac]

Keyword "now"

lol

[prisma kraken]

more you build, more your power need grows, lol

and um, it really grows

[prime zodiac]

I whole heartedly believe that

So much math. Brain hurts

Im an English major for a reason

[prisma kraken]

it becomes easier as you get used to the numbers

patterns start becoming familiar

and you start looking at a number like 135 as '3x45' and know what to do with it

[prime zodiac]

Interesting. Hadn't thought of it that way

[pure crow]

I only check the math when things are really far off or behaving strangely during normal progression these days, but I guess also I've done a lot of the math before.

Underclocking also gives a nice margin of error as far as power is concerned.

[prime zodiac]

Power plant was honestly the first time I really tried to get it 100%. My other stuff, well... Theres storage and a sink for a reason

[prisma kraken]

yeah, in the space for power trade, i'm almost always opting for more space 🙂

[pure crow]

On the other hand I like the "idea" of math-less designs for load distribution, but then I find out a bunch of them are O(n^2) (i.e. get really, really big the less math you want to do)

[prime zodiac]

It was also probably a foolish idea to A: Try and keep this power plant within the bounds of my current factory and B: Build this whole ass factory in the blue crater because it was a cool area lol

[prisma kraken]

honestly in 1.0, blue crater is one of the choicest building spots on the map

[pure crow]

Oh, that crater is actually crazy for resources, and I think they intentionally made it so.

It's a good spot to have almost anything.

[prisma kraken]

little light on caterium

[prime zodiac]

Really? I figured with all the oil you'd wanna dedicate it to mostly oil/fuel production. I did everything production and now am building very vertical

[pure crow]

Yeah, it's a power house. It has water there and a lot of interesting resources, too, nearby.

[prisma kraken]

besides some stout oil production, i also am making 90 hmf/min in the crater

i believe that the only thing i'm importing is the ton of concrete hmf's need

[prime zodiac]

This is what I've built so far. Im not gonna lie, a lot has gotten lost inside this. Including myself. Ive gotten lost

Now I need to squeeze plastic, rubber, and electronics production in here somehow...

[toxic hemlock]

I'm not missing some obvious equivalent to the factorio circuit network, am I? e.g. for putting several things onto one train in a specific ratio

[prisma kraken]

i'm fighting with myself on design decisions at this point about whether i want to use some silica to make aluminum in titan forest

[toxic hemlock]

beyond the obvious "just produce and consume them in the right ratio"

[prisma kraken]

no, in this game, you have to balance correctly, there's no pinning inventory slots or anything of that sort

[toxic hemlock]

That really disincentivizes small specific factories

[prisma kraken]

trains do have a limited facility for filtering what they pick up & drop off at a station

[toxic hemlock]

yeah but that's just kicking the can down the road

[prisma kraken]

or motivates you to use drones for such things

[toxic hemlock]

you can tell a train to only pick up one thing but you can't prevent the station from filling up on another thing, ya

[prime zodiac]

Couldn't you use smart splitters to send things you don't want elsewhere, such as storage or a sink until/if you get it sorted?

[prisma kraken]

yeah, you have to find solutions for such problems

[prime zodiac]

Or programmable splitters

[toxic hemlock]

Based on what criteria, though

no way to program "send coal here until there are 400 in this container"

it's possible

[prisma kraken]

the issue with mixed train or vehicle loads is that they come out of a station on a belt and you need to wait for all the concrete or wire, etc dropped off to come out the belt before the item you want

[toxic hemlock]

if the ratios are correct that won't matter

[prisma kraken]

you can do it, but then have to engineer a buffering system to compensate for that latency

stuff comes out full stacks at a time sequentially

[snow maple]

splitters split things as long as they're allowed to, while obeying the output rules programmed into them. you can use overflow setting to say 'split into this path until it can't take anymore then continue onward', but there's no way to say a specific amount

[toxic hemlock]

yeah

it's possible to set up some ratios but it's gonna involve redirecting overflow through it

[pure crow]

How good is the train filtering feature? And can I use it with rate limiters & rebalancers (note: I've never built these, just hypothesized of them a bit) to guarantee at least 1 stack of an item? Hmm...

[prisma kraken]

ehh, i've had mixed results with that all

[pure crow]

Sorters get kinda ridiculous, so having the train sort things sounds very nice, but the rate limiting & rebalancing problem doesn't sound "solveable" either without loads of waste (and sinking)...

[pure crow]

Oh well.

[prisma kraken]

when you get fancy with the train filtering and the 'wait until' settings, i find they non-obviously don't do what you want

[pure crow]

So... worst case hypothetical... you do train filtering and wait until 1 loads, on a single freight station. But that freight station never manages to fill your train with that 1 item... is it going to sit there forever?

[prisma kraken]

also, i think there's a bug where a level trigger on 'wait until full' considers a stack a full slot if one item is in the stack instead of fully full

the feature isn't very popularly used, so i don't think anyone has really been very vocal about fixing it

what i've found is that when you start playing with those settings, it is very easy to cause things akin to priority inversions to happen and just things to get starved for stupid reasons you didn't think thoroughly about

i've found just in general that the game often penalizes you for thinking you've come up with something clever 😄

[pure crow]

Yeah, mostly all the "simple" solutions I thought of require automation signals, which don't exist in the game.

[prisma kraken]

some people have done some things with belts that are akin to making analog logic circuits

[pure crow]

(specifically, for the concept of a sushi belt with feedback, as opposed to a sushi belt with sinking, and to the same extent that this concept applies to trains where trains may be treated equivalently as belts or sorters)

And I can't prove that any of the "complex" ones work for long...

[prisma kraken]

some of it all is pretty clever, but looping lots of stuff on belts kind of takes a toll on performance

very quickly you get into the realm of theory where turing's halting problem becomes a thing, lol

[pure crow]

o-o

[prisma kraken]

proving that something keeps running is pretty much the same problem as proving that something running eventually stops

[thorny root]

My creations have been rejected by the design and architecture group. They keep calling it spaghetti. They just don't see the beauty I do.

[pastel obsidian]

We need pyroland goggles to hide the spaghetti

[thorny root]

Okay but this is not even close to spaghetti. Just because it's floating and too complicated to understand at a glance, they dismiss it as spaghetti.

[prisma kraken]

i think it is anti-spaghetti

[thorny root]

Yeah I don't know how they could say that.

[prisma kraken]

kind of think the design is really good but probably burn-out inducing to use

[thorny root]

how do you mean?

[prisma kraken]

this game has many problems that can only be solved in imperfect ways. when you try to create rigidly perfect solutions, you end up with designs that aren't flexible enough to accomodate what you need and after spending tons of time on it, you just sort of give up fighting your own designs square peg with the game's round hole

idk, everyone is different, so my opinion is just my opinion

[thorny root]

Well... Yes. I agree with you... up until you suggest that the design isn't flexible enough to accommodate what I need. I see this as the ultimate solution to that problem. For starters, it's tileable. Second, I don't need all those train stations, but they're there as options if I do. There are 4 in and 4 out in each 60 degree segment, and 3 60 degree segment combine to form what I'm calling a sector, where all the inputs and outputs of the 3 adjacent blocks meet. It's set up to do pipes or belts, and all I have to do is change out which station+manifold combo blueprint I use. There are 4. 2 input, 2 output, 2 for pipes, 2 for belts.

[pure crow]

The thing with trains is that they always take shortest path, so in terms of maximizing parallel paths and throughput, you only have one option: you basically just want a hub at the center of the map that extends outwards in all directions towards every object, like a point source.

[prisma kraken]

yeah, i like it for a lot of reasons, but also, i'm doubtful that you'll need even half of that capacity, lol

[thorny root]

What that does is give me up to 12 different materials in and out to a single location.

[thorny root]

Oh, this 100%. But some blocks will be heavier duty than others, and I wanted one design that fit all.

[prisma kraken]

as i said, i'll be interested to see how it turns out

[thorny root]

Well did you catch the events of the last 2 days where I resignaled the whole thing 3 times and spent 4 hours a day riding trains in circles seeing where I could further optimize?

I had 12 trains hitting all 48 stations each in a closed loop. With continuous flow and no wait times. And no collisions.

And I was forcing them to all do left turns

[pure crow]

(The hub solution isn't all that appealing, though, since it takes loads of rail and doesn't consolidate 'em much)

[prisma kraken]

at some point you gotta start building some factory or you'll burn out

[thorny root]

I did that. Got burnt out becuase I didn't have a solution like this for the problem I kept running up against. Clean logistics.

I have solved clean logistics.

Now I go solve the factory some more.

[prisma kraken]

fair, lol

[thorny root]

Well no not quite. I still have to finish this "megaprint" Not much work left to do. Manifolds. Hangars. No decorations required. This is intended to be barebones.

[prisma kraken]

i've been kind of going in the opposite direction and just embracing it being crazy and messy

[thorny root]

And then the "resource pillar" that brings all the stuff up to the train level.

[thorny root]

I did as much as i could stand of that to get me to T9. Now it's time to go full aut...onomous.

[pure crow]

I'm a fan of Belt Minimization and quick-build train setups, don't really mind the wait times much.

[prisma kraken]

yeah, i'm getting a lot more organized too, just kind of in a flowing like water way

[thorny root]

I wish I were that easy going XD

[pure crow]

Automation signals on trains would make them so much more powerful, though...

And the ability to take alternate paths.

[thorny root]

wdym they are automatic? You tell it what to do at each station, set the time table, and go. Yes it takes some considerable setup but it just goes forever once you do.

[pure crow]

I want the train to detect, for example, that some station has too much or too little of a resource, and adjust its route to the ones in need.

[thorny root]

Nah fat chance. This game doesn't do math for you.

[pure crow]

Or even to load the excess from some of the stations, in the opposite of what the station usually does.

Plenty of other things that automation signals could do, too, probably.

[prisma kraken]

um, manifolds work for belts. trains can perform the same task

[pastel obsidian]

More control on what gets loaded into each carriage

[prisma kraken]

EMBRACE THE TRAINIFOLD!

[thorny root]

It loads what you pipe in?

[pastel obsidian]

I want filters on individual cartridges

[pure crow]

The train solution to the N-Hub problem is actually way more appealing than the merger/splitter only solution... it's actually only O(n) instead of O(n^2), ignoring extra railways required. The detriment is that train stations are already huge... lol.

[pastel obsidian]

Load iron ingots into carriage 1 go to station 2 and load copper into carriage 2

[pure crow]

(it should work for Truck Stations though, which don't need rails obviously, so that's kind of a nice thought)

[prisma kraken]

something like this?

[thorny root]

Yes, and yes, but that's also why they have their own layer on 500 on my map, and whatever I do above them I'm calling tier 1. This is Tier 0. Resource handling.

[pastel obsidian]

But for each platform not for the whole station

[pure crow]

So with automation signals I could make the ultimate train network that functions as a Hub across the entire map... would be very cool.

[prisma kraken]

yeah, i'll say it feels like that would make the feauture more complete

[thorny root]

That is... basically what I've done except the train network isn't going to think about what the world-factory needs. It just does what you tell it to. you have to plan the world factory.

[pure crow]

Well, when I say Hub, I mean specifically something that "merges" everything and then "splits'" everything.

N inputs in, N outputs out.

There's a specific way to schedule trains that accomplishes this for one resource, but without automation signals, it'd take a lot of effort to extend it to multiple... probably.

[thorny root]

The way I'm going to handle the problem you have outlined is this: I have a bunch of stops where 1 train picks up resources. I tell it the order in which to make the stops so that I like the direction the train goes when it does its job. It has 1-2 drop off points, where we concentrate all those resources. Then the order is to wait in the station until the train car is empty. When that's done, I repeat the route. If I find I have excess materials, due to the way I am loading them in the cars themselves in a very balanced fashion, I can just add another train line that takes the same stops in the same order, and drops them off at a different destination, with the same order to wait in the station until the train is empty.

I am using the loading buffers as the load balancer.

I am using the wait in station order as a load balancer.

I am using exact fill rates as a load balancer.

Combined... They achieve... I think... what you are suggesting.

But I still have to plan it out.

[pure crow]

Well, the point of the solution I thought of was that there is no planning involved regardless of what the actual consumers or producers are... it doesn't need to know anything whatsoever about the system, the train system just needs to have a specific subset of schedules.

(the downside being that it's ridiculously large, ha)

[thorny root]

... no this isn't factorio. You can't omnifold like that, there is not enough intelligence or throughput.

[pure crow]

Nope, it's doable. For one resource. In belts and in trains.

The belt solution is probably slightly easier to understand? The train solution is simply derived from them.

[thorny root]

You just finished going over how you wish you could, now you're saying you can?

[pure crow]

Well, I can, but it's not practical since these things are very large and the train stations only cover 1 type of resource.

[pulsar notch]

I just want to be able to tell trains/trucks "don't leave the station until you've fully unloaded," so I'm not burning fuel to no good purpose.

[thorny root]

You... can?

[pulsar notch]

I never saw that option the last time I set up a truck route, maybe I missed it though.

[thorny root]

its in the train schedule settings. Mouse over the stops in the schedule, a gear icon comes up. And you can specify some things.

[pastel obsidian]

Only for trains it's hidden in the advanced options

[prisma kraken]

yeah, little gear icon in the timetable

[pure crow]

You've got N things on a circle -- the first thing you would think of to connect all these together is to create a loop through them. But this loop has a defect: if half of the consumers are on side and half are on the other, that loop can only support 1 (much less than N) belt worth of throughput. To solve this, the first intuitive step is to draw a line from the center of the producers to the center of the consumers -- a bisection. If you kept repeating this "bisecting" process over and over, and identifying the defects, you would get a circle, with a bajillion lines drawn through the center...

[prisma kraken]

for trucks/tractors, best you can do is to set the amt of time it pauses at a station

[pure crow]

... and then you would identify another defect, you would select half of these pairs instead and find out that they can't reach the perpendicular pair. So you would then start merging together bisected paths in the middle...

If you kept identifying defects, each time you would just keep merging together paths in the center to correct them.

[thorny root]

yeah you're right that's completely impractical, not to mention unnecessary if you could just bothered to plan your usage properly.

[pure crow]

This "center point?" It's a Hub -- something that allows anything to go into it from any direction, and something that allows the same thing to leave from any direction.

You can create a Hub just by recursively linking together Industrial Storages, for example, spiralling towards the center is one way to do so.

[thorny root]

A massive air wing of drones, and a massive resource distribution facility, centralized.

[pure crow]

It'd be quadratically large --- a square of Industrial Storages. O(n^2)

[pulsar notch]

Ahh, trains only. That's immensely disappointing

[pure crow]

This hub is, obviously, ridiculously and hilariously large when you're just building O(n) most of the time.

[amber umbra]

@pulsar notch For trains, I use the “fully load/unload OR 100,000 s” to get trains only to move with full/empty loads.

[thorny root]

Yeah I think you're too deep in the math theory have left the realm of practical solutions a long time ago.

[pulsar notch]

Gotcha, though I wanted it for trucks.

[prisma kraken]

vehicles don't scale very well in the game anyway, by the time you're at a point where you need such knobs, you're fishing your tractors from the pink forest when they teleport incorrectly 😛

[pastel obsidian]

The train system would be fine if the game was released 5 years ago but I feel like we have seen the grass on the other side and I want it here.

[pure crow]

Nah, it's dirt simple to build, especially if you're just looking to merge together 4 things. I just don't like it.

[pulsar notch]

Yeah, I'm in dune desert, a truck route bringing sulfur to my munitions plant when I need it would have been nice

[prisma kraken]

one of the two areas of the game i'd ask for further improvements on, second only to some form of monitoring

[pure crow]

It implies, that merging together excess or guaranteeing a certain level of consumption, or even only using the solution at the 2-port or the 4-port levels? Are mostly pretty practical.

[pastel obsidian]

Think of how good it would be for the environment /s

I was low-key hoping that tucks could follow invisible rail tracks so it would be easier to make roads and truck networks

[pure crow]

(N-Loop also solves the same problem; the train solution is indirectly related to both of 'em, conceptually)

The train solution basically tells all the trains to draw a bunch of different loops, via bisection, with their paths... it's quite funny.

[magic island]

favourite new use-case for drone item-trading: delivering packaged turbofuel to coal nodes and bringing back time crystals

[pure crow]

Oh, that's a good one.

[magic island]

the roundup of miscellaneous diamond recipes/locations is so much simpler now, especially with a blueprinted port+accelerator combo I can plop anywhere. send 80 packaged turbo to a pure node, get 60 time crystals back. small, drone-friendly numbers

[prisma kraken]

i'm planning on just doing a round up from all the coal nodes in abyss cliffs after boiling down to diamond, i think

i'm not sure how many time crystals/min i really need yet

probably btw that and the spire coast oil, i'll have what i need

you really don't need very many except for dark matter trap

[prisma kraken]

woohoo, finally rounded up the last of the slugs on the map

[pulsar notch]

I feel like the pink diamonds alt recipe is a massive improvement over vanilla

[past reef]

Its up there for full node usage, turbo diamond gives more but only use 1/3 of the oil node

Not really an issue but making iron canister is inconvenient imo

[toxic hemlock]

Uranium for Drone power: stupid or genius?

[astral warren]

It’s not bad since it lasts a while and doesn’t make any waste I guess

I’m planning to use ionized fuel for drones once I have that going since I’m far enough into the late game by now

Finished the 170/min power shard factory yesterday 🎉

[latent anchor]

tbh power shards should be sinkable once you unlock synthetic ones, sinking that stuff once it backs up would be wonderful

[astral warren]

I reckon they’ll add it eventually

[solemn gorge]

Will this work or is it going to get uneven

[fringe seal]

what's the input belt, and what's the recipe

[solemn gorge]

Silica, input is in top right

100%

[fringe seal]

I don't see anything that could be a problem tbh

[solemn gorge]

so the ones in the bottom of the picture will still get quartz? or is everything else going to take all?

[fringe seal]

is the input belt mk5

[solemn gorge]

yup, 540/min

[fringe seal]

then it'll work but it might take a while, as manifolds often does

[solemn gorge]

Is that beacause it will have to wait for everything to fill up before it becomes more of a even flow?

[fringe seal]

yup

[solemn gorge]

okay, thanks!

[past reef]

you can force fill the manifold faster by blocking output until everything backs up tbh

[ebon girder]

Anyone know if using a lot of mk6 belts will have a big impact on performance? If yes, I rather try to use as many slower ones as I can.

Or is it irrelevant?

[vapid gorge]

Probably nothing significant compared to just building lots

[astral warren]

Belts in general do impact performance yes

If you really want to save some frames you can replace belts with trains/drones where possible

As well as turning down the conveyor visual quality settings

[ebon girder]

Okay, should be fine, I have lots of trains instead of conveyors across the countryside

So, when you are in megafactory mode after you beat the last phase, what items do you produce to sink? I am thinking with sticking with the last 4 goods of phase 5, because they seem like a good goal to work towards to expand in sandbox mode.

[fringe pawn]

Is the sky border a damage border or a kill border? Does anyone know how far up you need to go for it to kill?

[frosty owl]

Last I saw, people got damaged by going too high, not instakilled

[astral warren]

It’s a damage border for a bit then just instakills you when you get high enough

Dunno the exact distances for that though

[frosty owl]

69 meters

[fringe pawn]

My power storage tower is 14m per level. 100 levels is safe, but I should probably skip trying to make it 200 levels, versus a second tower. 256 per level, the blueprint is 64 each.

[astral warren]

How much power are you storing lol

[fringe pawn]

I want to be able to discharge 500GW for an hour without seeing the message about storages draining, so that's a 2.5TWh capacity.

Then I'm building a second one disconnected as a backup, in case of who knows. Some future update breaking things or whatever.

[astral warren]

I think ours is only like 50 or 100 GW

Saved my ass recently though when I turned on like 17 overclocked power shard encoders and proceeded to destroy my power grid

Thankfully no fuses blew thanks to the storage and I was able to flip on some extra nuclear plants to get some more power

[vapid gorge]

A single huge factory will impact performance extra

[ebon girder]

Yeah, that I know, I was more refering to a "map wide mega factory" not one specific building.

[copper seal]

Is the Turbo Heavy Fuel a good recipe?

[deft lichen]

You can't combine it with diluted fuel

[copper seal]

rip

[vapid gorge]

it's convenient for it's uses

probably as part of a munitions factory to make weaponry

[heavy gust]

I would skip directly to rocket fuel

[amber umbra]

I’m remembering turbo heavy being higher sulfur usage per turbo fuel but fewer steps required since you can heavy oil reside alt. So imo eh.

[vapid gorge]

really good for munitions since you need HOR , coal and sulfur for that stuff anyway

[copper seal]

ah rip

anyways i think im done trying to make fuel production etc. look good -_-

i made sure the crude oil pipes were completely full and backlogged before turning on the fuel production, then i made sure the fuel pipes + crude oil pipes were completely full and completely backlogged again before turning on the fuel generators and i'm still running out of crude oil and fuel

all the backlogs are emptying -_-

it'll probably run fine for a while but it'll just crash again later -_-

its 600m3 > 10 refineries for 400m3 fuel > 400m3 fuel into 20 fuel generators taking 20m3 each, so my math is correct but i think its sloshing and i just can't fix that while making it look good -_-

[ember fractal]

600 in Mk2 pipes have problems

[copper seal]

roughly 490.5m3 fuel that should be there, isn't.

ye but its also causing issues with fuel, which is only 400m3 in a mk2 pipe

[ember fractal]

Split the 600 oil right at the source and have 2 manifolds feeding 5 machines each. Also put a pump on the pipe that's leaving the oil extractor.

That should be more reliable. Long manifolds do not work well with liquids, especially when you're approaching 600/m

[copper seal]

its a 600 pipe manifolded into 2x5

[ember fractal]

Ok, try adding a pump on the main pipe before the junction splits it into 2

[copper seal]

i did, it made it a little bit better than before but still not... great.

i mean i guess i could split it up into 2x300 but ugh

maybe i should just only use mk1 pipes lmao

[ember fractal]

Yeh 600 splits into 2 pipes of 300

[copper seal]

i've been having a bunch of issues with this oil build, and this is my 3rd day working on it

another issue is that sometimes even though the pipes are connected on the grid and it looks to be physically, they're not actually

[ember fractal]

Yah same, I always have issues with builds involving fluids

[copper seal]

it happens with junctions and floor holes

and also, apparently pumps don't work well before junctions either, even though the visuals say it should work

it will only work on the straight line forward, if you want it to work on the ones going left and right you need to put a pump on those too -_-

so. many. issues.

and it also takes long for the issues to become apparent because it takes a while for it to show up down stream

[jade anchor]

Is this the correct place to ask for help with trains ? Nvm I found the solution 🙂

[ember fractal]

Is your fps stable? No dips?

[copper seal]

no issues near the refinery atleast

anyways if there is a fix that doesn't rely on having a stable fps then i'd like to hear it

then i'll just always build with that in mind because even if im not lagging right now there is no guarantee it wouldn't lag later

since this oil project isn't too far away from my main base

do mk1 pipes have the same issues? then i'll just build everything with mk1 pipes

also im a chronic alt+tabber so i'll lose fps anyways lol

[vapid gorge]

what issues?

[copper seal]

600m3 pipes that are totally NOT fine

[vapid gorge]

they are if you build in a tidy fashion

[vapid gorge]

basic rules for reliable 600pipes #math-and-meta message

the main issue is people treat pipes like belts and then wonder what went wrong

[copper seal]

those are workarounds

[vapid gorge]

? they take into account gravity, elevation changes and back flow

Short manifolds also have back flow , it's jsut that since they are shorter they often don't break systems

[copper seal]

saying that you have a build a certain way for them to work correctly, which is to make it loop into itself, no valves, no buffers, no splits etc. is an admission that they're not working fine

[vapid gorge]

They are working as intended as stated by devs Shrug

you just can't slap them around any which way

[copper seal]

it shouldn't matter if there is a buffer or a valve or a split if the entire system is flooded

[vapid gorge]

and you can' not like that you have to build pipes a certain way. That's fine. But I think it's good design.

You can, also, ignore all my rules and get systems to work

[copper seal]

no you can't

[vapid gorge]

but probably not running 600, since you'd want to do a lot of direct feeding

[copper seal]

i'm feeding a 600m3 pipe and i'm missing 20% efficiency on one machine

[vapid gorge]

ignore the efficiency meters, they are probably still made of lies.

do the machines stutter?

[copper seal]

yes

[vapid gorge]

ok what's the layout like, got images?

[copper seal]

its shit now because i've been trying to make it work

[vapid gorge]

ah, yeah doing patch jobs to tweak a fluid system often makes it worse

[copper seal]

its actually doing better than before.

[vapid gorge]

sorry, worse to diagnose.

tends to get a lot messier and hard to see what is going on

[copper seal]

im gonna tear the entire thing down anyways

i wanted to make a oil platform like thing with a transfer floor so i could hide away the pipes

but its giving nothing but problems

[vapid gorge]

oh btw, if you wanted an example of running a 600 pipe without the rules

if you OCed like 3 machines to use 200 fluid each, you could probably feed that with 1 600 pipe, no loops or anything, but that's not a usual situation

[vapid gorge]

bottom feeding?

[copper seal]

yep

[vapid gorge]

ah yeah, the gravity priority on that can be a bitch, you gotta be extra neat and tidy

[copper seal]

it should work since every machine gives 10m headroom, but i have additional pumps

[vapid gorge]

It's very doable. But you have to be very strict

I don't recommend bottom feeding to people.
But I essentially only bottom feed

I'm heading to bed shortly but if you want some input on how to do the layout tomorow I could help

the thing is you'll proabably have issues bottom feeding even with mk1s

[copper seal]

no im gonna tear the entire thing down and just do it on ground level

in a straight line

[vapid gorge]

I mean that will help, but in those images those systems are running at or near 600.

you could have your floors still

[copper seal]

im only interested in making sure the straight line thing will work now

i've already spent 3 days on it

im done

[vapid gorge]

were you still wanting to bottom feed?

[copper seal]

nope

[vapid gorge]

ah. Well if you change your mind this is probably the most reliable bottom feeding system

you'll need to flood it and maybe need a powered pump at teh start. But that's not always a thing

Just in case you change your mind

[copper seal]

so will it just work normally

without any fucking around, with mk2 pipes

or should i just use mk1's

[vapid gorge]

no bottom feeding?

[copper seal]

just straight line

[vapid gorge]

use this and flood the systems

[past reef]

if the pipe system make and consume less than 300 pm you should be able to do whatever if every single pipe in the system is mk2

[vapid gorge]

if it doesn't work you've made a common small mistake somewhere. Like... didn't connect an input, or something isn't clocked right. The type of thing that can happen to any system.

but smaller manifolds are more stable. So really up to you.

I'd still loop a 300 pipe feeding refs and other things though. Just in case

[heavy gust]

looks amazing

[heavy gust]

i use this but with stackable poles

[copper seal]

if this doesn't work you have to change your name

[heavy gust]

it helps if you let the pipes fill before turning on the refineries

pipes worked for me after doing that

[copper seal]

tried it an ddidn't work

its too late anyways, already dismantled my entire project

i have multiple saves ofcourse but i'm done trying to make it work

[heavy gust]

make a blueprint with the pipes already looping back. Saves a lot of time

[vapid gorge]

pre flooding is part of a good loop though.

1. it helps stop sloshign
2. great diagnostic tool as if you have a flow issue it's quickly apparent

[heavy gust]

if possible i also seperate the full pipes into 2 with 300

[pastel obsidian]

I would assume a junction would work just fine

Try it see how it goes

[copper seal]

is this fine?

its 5 on either side and pipe support underneath a stackable pipeline

or should i use max height pipeline supports?

[vapid gorge]

As the end of a feed loop? Yes

[copper seal]

actually its not lol

if you connect it to a up/down junction at the beginning again, then the pipe will be below the intake of the buildings =|

[vapid gorge]

wdym?

thse are effectively the same loop, the botto mfeed one is just more squished

[copper seal]

ye but you're not supposed to have your pipes below the intake right?

[vapid gorge]

well the most stable version probably has the bottom pipe be at teh same level as the inputs of hte machines

not lower

from the image you shared though it seems like you'd have the junctions at the same level as the input? unless I'm looking at it very wrong

[copper seal]

maybe at the end but not at the beginning

anyways i changed it for max height supports

[thorn trellis]

Mine r side by side does that still work

[vapid gorge]

show an image?

[copper seal]

i just have this now

the intakes for the refinery and the fuel gennies are looped back

[vapid gorge]

looks good!

[copper seal]

r.i.p. oil platform 2024-2024

gotta wait a min till everything balances out to see if it works

as long as the refineries are getting enough crude it should be fine cause i'm only putting like 200m3 into each pipe for the 10 fuel gennies

[ebon girder]

Starting to use drones more now. One thing isn't clear to me. Will a destination port also carry back the stuff that's in that destination port's input inventory? Or will it only do that if I set that port's destination to the original orign port?

[copper seal]

honestly if it still doesn't work im just gonna throw some sloops in and overproduce -_-

[opal pivot]

when you see this as the first step and you're just like "oh..." xDDD

[vapid gorge]

it will pick up whatever is there yes

[copper seal]

i seriously need more creativity @vapid gorge

i just realized, it would've been fine to just remove the floor so i can do work with the pipes but i could just put a catwalk over it...

to hide the double pipes

[spare jolt]

i'm leaving that as a part of my base and you can't convince me to do otherwise

straight mode is my beloved

[heavy gust]

i would loop back from last generator all the way to first refinery

[ember fractal]

600pm pipe is not fine

[wind spade]

only if you built it wrong

[ember fractal]

Wrong is subjective

[wind spade]

wrong is "600 pipe doesn't do 600"

[ember fractal]

True

[ebon girder]

Can I also refuel drones via destination port only or does it need to be their home port?

[magic island]

as long as at least one port has fuel, it's fine

you'll need to feed the drone a bit of fuel to start its first flight, but that's it

[ebon girder]

thx

[torn yacht]

is nitro rocket fuel worth re-doing my entire turbofuel powerplant for?

[wind spade]

imo if you want a lot of power, get nuclear, ignore turbo and the whole branch
if you need just a bit of power, go diluted

[torn yacht]

ok cause I may have made, quite the sizeable Turbofuel plant already XD

[ancient halo]

Is any specific diamond recipie better than others?

[torn yacht]

I mean it'll work me till nuclear so i'll just leave it then

[magic island]

if you're already making the turbofuel, I would suggest default RF for the more straightforward conversion

[torn yacht]

👍

[compact prawn]

Why is the consumption rate so odd for rocket fuel? Is there any way to make it like an even number or something

[magic island]

produce in multiples of 25 and you should be able to get tidy generator counts (25 feeds 6 gens)

[dark lagoon]

240% is 10 a min iirc

[thorn trellis]

Wrong image

Idk if I can see from this

[dark lagoon]

All mine use 10 a min for math reasons I think 240% is what go it could be misremembering

[prisma kraken]

yeah, just adding nitric acid to already produced TF yields more RF than nitro does

[compact prawn]

Sweet, thanks for this info

[prisma kraken]

blended tf -> rocket gives the best RF/sulfur

[patent blaze]

finally hit 100% on rocket fuel

[compact prawn]

Also another question. But I cannot seem to get my pipes to flow at 600 per minute.
It's an extremely basic setup, 600 oil pm going in a straight line into some manifold junctions
But the machines keep stuttering and won't fully fill

[prisma kraken]

about the only place i use mk2's at capacity is coming off an oil extractor. i find that if i break it into 2 mk1 pipes before a pump, the problems of stability disappear

[patent blaze]

smart

i think i'll yoink that idea for my nuclear setup

doesnt really matter if theres twice as many pipes, just takes a tiny bit more space

[prisma kraken]

i haven't built nuclear yet, but that does require a 600 pipe at capacity for each reactor

[amber jacinth]

I've found that 600/m directly into a manifold stabilizes with a secondary pipe from the first manifold junction down the line as far as it can reach

[patent blaze]

im talking about production generally

[amber jacinth]

Like feeding from the back but not all the way

[patent blaze]

water is 600 yeah

[compact prawn]

I've done this, but it's just not working either

[prisma kraken]

i honestly find with oil it's easier to size things in chunks of 300 crude anyway, so it really isn't any extra piping

[patent blaze]

i did a lot of 500 pipes in my rocket fuel setup

400-480-500

[prisma kraken]

i definitely have a bunch of 400/min pipes coming out of diluted fuel blenders and some water pipes in the 400-500 range

[raw halo]

Ok, back to my pipe issues

or not

the game failed to launch

[prisma kraken]

i have very few issues with pipes. a lot of that is after a few 1000 hrs in the game, i've found builds for things that i know will work well and don't have to do a lot of experimenting

[compact prawn]

So is there an actual reason my pipes won't flow at 600 pm or is it just a bug?>

[prisma kraken]

explaining it the best i can...

when you push a conveyor belt to its max capacity, there's no room on the belt if machines pause for them to ever empty their buffers and 'catch up'

[copper hound]

stupid question: is a clocked up constructor basically perfectly same efficiency as two constructors, or is there some kind of very marginal improved productivity due to multiple conveyor feeds

[compact prawn]

There is no buffer tho

[prisma kraken]

pipes are the same way, but liquids flow in both directions simultaneously

[magic island]

any given pipe can move 600/min, but the pipe network may make inefficient choices for distributing it

[prisma kraken]

so if liquid ever flows in the opposite direction in a pipe, something will run dry

my suspiscion is that when the cycles on machines are in sync or out of sync with each other, it causes what's akin to shock waves in the pipe fluid that can cause the fluid in pipes to flow backward and that leads to the phenomena we know and love

i may not be 100% correct in that, but i haven't seen any data that seems to disagree with that explanation, and explains why looping pipes often makes them behave better

[compact prawn]

So using a pipe at 600pm is just impossible then...?

[prisma kraken]

no, it works if you keep manifolds very small and don't get fancy with it

[patent blaze]

kinda crazy you can turn 1k coal into 1200 sulfur

and it doesnt even use that much sam

[compact prawn]

My manifold is a single pipe and it's a straight line. There's nothing fancy about it

[amber umbra]

Tldr: avoid flow rates above -590 and you can ignore the 600 pipe bug. Looping manifolds if you can’t avoid 600.

[thorn trellis]

What’s considered as getting too big

[magic island]

so if your pipe is full, and you run it past a line of machines, the middle machines will create gaps as they consume fluid

and then fluid further along may flow backwards to fill the gaps, rather than moving forwards to the last few machines

[compact prawn]

So what's the solution to this?

[prisma kraken]

1200 coal -> 720 sulfur. for 60 sam. if you loop the sulfur->limestone-> coal again, you end up multiplying the coal by a fraction, but that's a waste of sam

[thorn trellis]

Smaller manifolds looping and flooding

I think

[magic island]

give the fluid multiple paths by looping the end

[patent blaze]

i just slooped the converters

[compact prawn]

I've done this and it doesn't work

[wind spade]

depends what do you call "better" 🙂

[prisma kraken]

ahh, well when you sloop converters interesting stuff is possible

try doing that with caterium -> uranium 🙂

[thorn trellis]

It works for most people as I’ve seen

There’s prob another issue with ur pipes then

[patent blaze]

👀

[thorn trellis]

U got a pic?

[raw halo]

So

[compact prawn]

Lemme go get a pic

[raw halo]

I have the game validating my files

[amber jacinth]

Spewking of, why is converting resources to crude oil using SAM not a thing 😡 literally unplayable

[tidal dock]

so many people with pipe issue🤣

[prisma kraken]

kinda odd that they omitted that conversion, i think

[thorn trellis]

Universal problem in satisfactory

[prisma kraken]

but if that existed, they'd probably have to rebalance all of oil

[raw halo]

So, my current issue is that I have no water in the far end of my coal plants, is the solution just to take and put the input pipe in the center and have it branch off to either side?

[thorn trellis]

Everyone has a problem with pipes at one point

[ebon girder]

how many coal plants

[raw halo]

I'll have to count in-game, which I can't launch right now

because game files are validating

I'm pretty sure I have somewhere between 7 and 13 per floor, with three floors

[quartz violet]

If you are using more than 2 water extractors at 100% clock rate you are bottlenecked by the pipe speed

oh this is a big operation

[raw halo]

I'm using 4

packagers and unpackagers for each floor

[magic island]

the classic starter coal issue is when people try to push 360 water through an Mk1 pipe

but at that size, we would need exact numbers to know what's wrong

[thorn trellis]

That first part is iffy

[raw halo]

so should I relocate the unpackagers to be a floor above and output down/across and have all the pipes meet up to be one pipe?

[magic island]

that's a VERY long manifold, one loopback point may not be enough

[thorn trellis]

Fluids don’t like travelling upwards

[compact prawn]

What's wrong with it?

[thorn trellis]

This too

[raw halo]

the fluids will be travelling downwards tho

packager

[compact prawn]

So I need to send multiple loopbacks?

[thorn trellis]

It’s just a bit iffy that’s all

[magic island]

you could try adding a couple connections between the upper/lower pipes midway through the manifold

[thorn trellis]

The way it’s built

I could be completely wrong