math-and-meta

[edgy leaf]

I think so but I might've messed up the experiment. I plan to do some more experiments and document them better today

[noble timber]

Hoping this can be eliminated if/when CS actually tell us how fluid works

[oblique hollow]

Its not that they are that hard, they are inconsistent with their rules.

You cannot get a single concise and coherent answer from people on mk 2 pipes
Discord is a walled garden, this is not the general experience

[wind spade]

People wanted pipes and are now surprised pikachu face when they got them

[fallen geyser]

Petition to rename this channel to pipes-and-meta

[ashen girder]

And even here we pretty constantly argue over how they work. 🤣

[oblique hollow]

Its like a genie in a lamp
"Wish granted, you get pipes, BUT they suck"

[charred oxide]

they should probably add a small video in the game with ada giving a quick overview on liquids once you unlock coal, much like you ese when you do space elevator phases.

that would solve 90% of the problem.

[ashen girder]

Just exposing more of the variables would be enough IMO.

[brisk smelt]

hmm how is it a walled garden

[cedar mica]

Or make all fluid like gas, which dont have these issues?

[ashen girder]

Like, fine, don't tell us anything. But when my pipes are failing to hit 600, something should indicate an error.

[oblique hollow]

They dont do that with anything else.
Why pipes? Why shouldnt you be able to just learn from them

[ashen girder]

You can't search Discord from outside of Discord.

[oblique hollow]

It may be public, but unless you know of it and know or hope it has answers you wont find any info we speak about in here

[noble timber]

Yet they still insist that everything is working as intended 😭

[ashen girder]

I mean, it is working as intended. The issue is the UX. They need to explain to us what we're doing wrong, or indicate it in some fashion.

[oblique hollow]

You cannot search for "McGalleon talks about pipes for the 500 millionth time" on Google.com and get anything except the manual

[ashen girder]

Even just a little notice on the pipe "this pipe's over pressure!" or something.

[wind spade]

Well tbh many of the things we have ingame with pipes, we also have irl. So an argument could be made that they are actually fine (assuming we ignore existing bugs)

Whether or not is that good game design is another question

[oblique hollow]

Again, im for them just having us NOT interact with the actual pipe limit and instead they just give us a false flow rate limit

[oblique hollow]

IRL is not good game design

Real life is the worst designed video game

[wind spade]

Agreed

[noble timber]

This is kinda my argument as well. No one in real life is actually maxing out pipes. However, it’s not intuitive to people who know nothing about pipes.

[cedar mica]

Does these issues show up with the gasses ingame?

[wind spade]

But what Factorio did is imo too easy

[oblique hollow]

yes. Gasses have their own issues with buffers for example

[edgy leaf]

btw mcgalleoj did you know that pumps in series with bottomfeeding act as VOP junctions while valves don't?

[oblique hollow]

cannot use a buffer because pipe flow depends on pipe fullness and buffers cannot buffer if they cannot output at max flow while also being half empty

[wind spade]

I'd vote for some middleground between new factorio and current satisfactory

[cedar mica]

So get rid of buffers, have all fluid be gasses and its "just works"?

[edgy leaf]

I think this is because pumps don't communicate pressure information backwards while valves do

[oblique hollow]

Head lift reset per pump. Valves are kinda kinda an "IF - THEN" condition
IF the input is full, then i get head lift
ELSE i dont get head lift
for pumps, its always "you get X m head lift from me, dont care about whats before me"

so pumps are safer

because you no longer care about the head lift of the section before

[brisk smelt]

I'd vote for satisfactory but with actual physics to piss peoople off even more

[charred oxide]

Problem with this mentality is that it's like asking for a MK2 belt to be transfering 120 items per minute, while it isn't full and then blaming the belt for not being full.
i'm sure there is a good Reason that pipes have to be full to get full flow rate.

[edgy leaf]

yes but did you know that pumps work as VOP junctions in bottomfeeding while valves don't? that implies they affect more than headlift, or that headlift does more than lifting heads

[bitter plume]

Anyone good with circles? Trying to figure out how many foundations out I would need to go to make a circle of refinerys instead of this line.

[oblique hollow]

Mk 2 belts are designed well below the known engine limit of 2000/min

[brisk smelt]

how many refineries is this

[bitter plume]

20

[charred oxide]

don't care, not my point.

[oblique hollow]

pipes are at the literal halfway point and at the maximum point

[charred oxide]

Literally, nothing you said addresses my point.

[noble timber]

Flow rate is proportional to “fullness” to simulate some sort of pressure

[wind spade]

I mean... if a belt isn't full, it isn't getting full flow rate either

[oblique hollow]

If thats not your point then what about "Pipes arent belts"
Belts have no flow rate meter
Belts have no head lift meter
Belts arent bidirectional

[fallen geyser]

Shapez 2 has fluids instantly transport within pipes and no concept of head lift lol

[oblique hollow]

and yet shapes has issues too from what i heard?

[ashen girder]

Its issues are LOD-related aren't they?

[fallen geyser]

That's technically with fluid gates more than fluids themselves, and it's related to them being classified as a logic circuit

[edgy leaf]

am I missing something for thinking that this is significant?

[fallen geyser]

Logic circuits run at a reduced speed when out of LOD, and the gates are set up so that this makes them run at like 85% of the listed efficiency when out of LOD

[charred oxide]

and that is my point.

Pipes and belts both rely on being fed enough to get max flow rate

The key difference is that a pipe isn't a belt, and of course the only way to move liquids is to push it with more liquid since they have no flow direction.

[fallen geyser]

which is a lot of words to say "automated fluid gates only work at full efficiency while you look at them"

[oblique hollow]

Pipes are clearly far more complex than belts and thus deserve more careful treatment.
You could now argue if that means they should be handles exactly as belts.

[ashen girder]

Satisfactory pipes are stupid observed and unobserved. 👀

[charred oxide]

I guess what i'm trying to say is that if you want to treat a pipe like a belt then you have to consider the max flow rate of the pipe to be equal to wahtever liquid that you're feeding it.

Thus it has to be full to get max flow rate
Just like how you need to feed a Mk2 belt 120 items per minute to get well... 120 per minute.

Plus a mild ammount of pipe jank added on.

[oblique hollow]

And yet the system cannot ensure it is full enough if you only care about thee obvious bits it tells you about.
It ISNT FUNNY that the entire system can fail due to a single point of weakness.
The water hammer on pipes is still the biggest slap in the face because you never break any rules

[ashen girder]

I still can't comprehend why connecting a 240 pipe and a 360 pipe to a junction and expecting a 600 pipe to come out is.. wrong?

[wind spade]

bidirectionality

[charred oxide]

Never said it wasn't.
If that doesn't just work out for you then I don't know what to tell you.

[ashen girder]

That doesn't just work for a lot of people.

[oblique hollow]

If i cannot merge pipes then its not good design because nothing tells me i cannot merge it

Actually, i know the solution to all issues:
Remove junctions

[ashen girder]

But more junctions is what makes it work!

[oblique hollow]

No more junctions and all pipe isses are solved

[cedar mica]

Package it all, does that...

[desert oxide]

What about a pipe splitter and merger like we have with belts..?

[wind spade]

again depends on what conversation are we having
is it "why doesn't X work"
or "why should X work"?

aka are we talking about current state of pipes, or are we talking about how to change them?

[oblique hollow]

thats not a solution that is you abstaining from interacting with a central part of the game simply because it was frustrating you so much

[wind spade]

how would you do that if we have bidirectional pipes?

[oblique hollow]

that just means making pipes not bidirectional

[charred oxide]

Actually, no I do know what to tell you

I'm doing that in my current oil setup and it's turning out fine.
So I genuinely have no clue what you're talking about.

this here:

600 HOR coming from bottom, exiting top.

200 Coming in from right, going through the 600 pipe
Coming out left to merge with a 400 pipe

and it works for me.

[ashen girder]

Considering @charred oxide said it's a skill issue, I'd say we're discussing how they currently work.

[ashen girder]

You're feeding 600 from the bottom, and 200 from the right, and getting 600 out the top and 400 out the left?

[oblique hollow]

"It works for me"
is the worst part about pipes. 50% say works for me, other 50% say it doesnt

[charred oxide]

it's merging into a 400 on the left.

[ashen girder]

Okay? Cool! You've got a setup that works for you.

[oblique hollow]

It should be like 90% Because then everyone at least agrees on why it works or that it works

[knotty zinc]

just add more pipes

[charred oxide]

you gave me an example. asked "why doens' this work" and I show you an example of me doing this plus an added step of complexity that might mess it up, and it still works for me.

Clearly, it does work.

[wind spade]

and 80% of people aren't even capable of correctly identifying if the setup works or not, they'll say it works when it actually doesn't, or vice versa

[ashen girder]

360 coming from the right. 240 coming from the left. Remaining pipe won't stay at 600 for anything with this setup.

In fact, without those two junctions, the 360 completely backs up and halts production.

[wind spade]

have you tried to make it vertical?

[oblique hollow]

@charred oxide how bout you 2 exchange saves

[ashen girder]

#1294817326914473994 message

It's not even my save. 🤣

[bitter plume]

looks like a wierd headlift issue to me

[ashen girder]

See, @charred oxide. I now have two completely different answers.

What's your third, also different answer to why that doesn't work?

[bitter plume]

yea but im new to 1.0 i know fuck all

[brisk smelt]

anyways, anyone could help me out with a weird aluminum plant that makes more water byproduct than it needs, lol. so technically no water is actually going in

[oblique hollow]

do all the scrap refineries output their scrap properly if they run

[bitter plume]

ive finished phase 4 and love working with biproducts but yea sometimes shits just buggy and wierd

[charred oxide]

that's a simple fix

Overflow excess water into something like wet concrete as a way to sink it.

[ashen girder]

Wet concrete was made for you.

[brisk smelt]

i have nuclear plants running

[brisk smelt]

yes, water is backing up but yet the alumina plants are getting water starved...?!

everything is completely flat

[ashen girder]

#skillissue. 😂 /jk

[oblique hollow]

might be throughput

[charred oxide]

have you double checked for any bugged connections?

those still exist some times.

[oblique hollow]

make sure you dont exceed the pipe flow limit

[brisk smelt]

everything is calculated properly

it should hit perfect 600

[oblique hollow]

give us the math

[ashen girder]

Have you tried my lord and savior, the junction?

[oblique hollow]

oh. classic pipe moment

600/min is an edge case

the worst one

doesnt work 100% all the time unless you fuck around with it unnecesarily

[ashen girder]

For anyone that doesn't want to click through, this is how I got that junction running at 600 steadily:

[brisk smelt]

3360 water out, 2160 going to NPP, 1200 going to 5x alumina refineries

[ashen girder]

(With a bumped input of 600 coming down the left pipe now.)

[brisk smelt]

the scrap refineries are 8x in a row, 2 on the ends supply 420 each and the 2 next to them put 180 into the pipes that feed back

[brisk smelt]

should i try double piping the water

[bitter plume]

So im trying to make an Iron Pipe facility using 2400 Iron and 500 sulfur. I have 20 leached refinerys that output 1-1 into a constructor making Iron Pipes. Only Problem I have is 20 refinery in a row looks damn ugly. Any Ideas for layout? I want to make a circle but im kinda intimidated by that rn.

[ashen girder]

Leached Iron into Iron Pipe is cursed.

[oblique hollow]

always safer

[oblique hollow]

No its glorious

[ashen girder]

CURSED.

[oblique hollow]

this is peak iron pipe

[bitter plume]

all smelting is done via leached at this base

[brisk smelt]

leached is cursed

[ashen girder]

Leached is fine.

[oblique hollow]

leached is glorious
pure is cursed

35 to 65 go die in hell

pure is literally a worse leached iron

[bitter plume]

leached has been great for me Im not making nuclear here so basically all my sulfer goes into Leached or Nitro Fuel

[brisk smelt]

pure, you get free iron from thin air

leached, you need sulfur

[oblique hollow]

oooh no sulfur

[onyx breach]

My friend told me that trcuks are really bad and very random , but i have not seen a problem with trucks, He also says that Trucks is broken from nothing, is that true?

[brisk smelt]

which is functionally the rarest resource on the map

[oblique hollow]

no it isnt

[charred oxide]

your friend is wrong

[bitter plume]

its 3rd rarest iirc

[oblique hollow]

everyone likes to pretend sulfur is rare but its rarely used

[bitter plume]

less sulfer than bauxite on the map

[oblique hollow]

so its only rare by occurcence, not by usage

[ashen girder]

Man. Adding just 600 coal nearly doubles your output. 🤣

[oblique hollow]

If you stuff all the sulfur into turbofuel thats a different issue

[bitter plume]

^ exactly why i dont mind using leached

[charred oxide]

Among the 11 tractors I currently ahve on my world. ih ave 3, doing 1 single route that's 6.5KM long, delivering 900 sulphur per minute reliably to my power plant

Truck stations, trucks, and tractors are fine

And perfectly reliable

[cedar mica]

Outside power that is.

[bitter plume]

I wish they were slighly more efficient but their output is great

[oblique hollow]

Turbofuel is a Sulfur trap and i think its funny

[brisk smelt]

nuclear rods, batteries, nuclear recycling, fuels

[oblique hollow]

Batteries are obsolete, nuclear cannot use up all the sulfur and Turbofuel is a sulfur trap

Turbo is optional in every way

[bitter plume]

I kept trying to find a use for all my compact coal from my rocket fuel/ ionized fuel setup but Turbofuel is just so bad I ended up sinking it

[charred oxide]

Moreover, if your friend's trucks are breaking, ask if the reason they're breaking is because they go head on with one another and stop

because the only real thing you have to worry about with Truck stations is making sure you don't let 2 vehicles go head on.
else they get stuck, braking to let the other one pass. Which they can't because they're head on to one another.

[ashen girder]

So is Nuclear. 😛

[oblique hollow]

Nearly every single player who says sulfur is rare keeps stuffing it in Turbofuel.
I dont use turbo so i dont have that issue

[bitter plume]

I have roughly 3600 sulfer at this base so might as well use it right

[brisk smelt]

its 1 sulfur to 4 nf uranium, and 40 sulfur to 25 uranium cells

[charred oxide]

once I finally finish my fuel power I"ll be able to use the sulphur near my main base for other things.

[brisk smelt]

pretty intensive usage

[oblique hollow]

compared to?

[brisk smelt]

oh forget what i said about uranium cells u recycle that

[oblique hollow]

Thats like the only usage for it

[ashen girder]

Nuclear's optional. 👀

Also, I wonder how leached+solid steel compares with compacted steel.

[knotty zinc]

it is?

[charred oxide]

Just use biofuel for everything, no sulphur needed.

[bitter plume]

so any ideas on how to make that many refinery look nice?

[ashen girder]

I've mined a grand total of like 20 uranium ore in my save.

That was purely to finish the MAM.

[bitter plume]

Coal? Oil? My base run on HOG

[ashen girder]

And I mined it to get sloops/spheres. 🤣

[oblique hollow]

its like 30 sulfur for 6250 MW is i run through it.
Im pretty sure at least

thats without the alts

[knotty zinc]

prob they can help you there #design-and-architecture

[cedar mica]

What about its "upgraded" version, rocket and ionized?

[oblique hollow]

Turbo is like 22.5 for 1500 MW

[charred oxide]

I've heard that Rocket fuel is amazing, and ionized is way too expensive.

[ashen girder]

Ionized is also a trap. 👀

[bitter plume]

always cut turbo fuel out of the production chain for those

[oblique hollow]

rocket is basically needed to upgrade it. Sulfur savings are minimal
but it is 38 Sulfur for 6000 MW

[bitter plume]

Ionized is so bad but i still plan to make like 24-4800 of it lol

[charred oxide]

It's probably worht making a small ammount of ionized for your jetpack.

[ashen girder]

I should set up some ionized for that.

[deft lichen]

I can't figure out iron wire + stitched iron plates + modular frames to work out to non-repeating decimals

[cedar mica]

Ionized or Liquid Biofuel for jetpack, seems the be the top picks.

[ashen girder]

I use RF.

It depends on how you move around, honestly.

[cedar mica]

Overfeed slightly on input and just accept the full conveyor. Far easier then trying to get decimals correct over several lines.

[bitter plume]

in that case just siphon off a small bit powercells of from the other production and toss it into your rocket fuel packager with an underclocked refinery before it

[brisk smelt]

injection manifold

[deft lichen]

it'll be a small independent factory, it just bugs me

[oblique hollow]

15 assemblers for frames
8 Assemblers for Stitched
12 constructors for iron wire
...
1 constructor for normal wire

[deft lichen]

nooooo 😭

iron only

[oblique hollow]

multiply everything by 3

[knotty zinc]

[oblique hollow]

then you get to remove normal wire

[deft lichen]

what are the total output rates?

well, I want the factory to produce both MF and RIP for storage

if nothing works out, I'll just plan them separately and send RIP to the MF factory

[oblique hollow]

45 Assemblers for frames
24 Assemblers for stitched
40 constructors for iron wire
90/min Mod frame using 135/min RIPs

[ashen girder]

40x Iron Wire into 24x Stitched RIP into 45x MF producing 90MF/min?

Yeah, that. 😂

[oblique hollow]

want sane numbers? divide by 10

[ashen girder]

You need 40 for iron wire, not 36.

[oblique hollow]

oh right

13.333 x 3

[deft lichen]

90 isn't working out

I have 480 iron available for both factories

[ashen girder]

You didn't mention plates.

[deft lichen]

"iron wire + stitched iron plates + modular frames"

[oblique hollow]

multiply by 3... again

176 smelters

[wind spade]

27 or 2.7 per minute

[oblique hollow]

for 270/min mod frames

[deft lichen]

yes!

27 on both RIP and MF works

[oblique hollow]

also yeah 27 because rules of 45 -81 or whatever (Rip sev)

81 is 27 x 3 so theres that.

[wind spade]

81 is for oil products tho

[deft lichen]

iron wire + stitched plates breaks the 45-81 rule

I mean there are far fewer numbers it works with

and I think rocket fuel is another example

[oblique hollow]

apparently not

[wind spade]

afaik there's like 3 recipes that don't fall into the rule

(well, were in U8)

[oblique hollow]

iron wire seems to be one of them

[deft lichen]

oh yes this is excellent

[proud totem]

I haven't heard of the 45-81 rule, is there somewhere I can read about it?

[deft lichen]

#math-and-meta message

Sev's pretty long explanation and reasoning behind it

[wind spade]

apparently wasn't mentioned in his post 🤔

not sure if some numbers changed in 1.0 with those recipes or if that just wasn't ever considered

[deft lichen]

it's iron wire AND stitched plates, no?

like that specific combination

[onyx breach]

Is recycling water for aluminium buggy?

[wind spade]

no

[onyx breach]

someone said me that's its kinda buggy or wtf he's yapping

[cedar mica]

It works, if you get the numbers right and dont use valves.

Will take a few rounds to get to 100%, but should not be an issue other wise.

[flint rapids]

Is there a way to tell the height coordinates of my current position? (Other than using calculator-map-website-saveedittor)
I'm making a water tower and will drag pipes it quite a long way and I want to make sure my current height is higher than the destination.

[torpid gorge]

Its rough if your water output doesnt evenly go into inputs, cuz then u need to mix with an external water source and you need a valve and its all fucked

It still works its just really wonky

[cedar mica]

As I said, dont use valve. Make the water input plus the recycled water, match the exact amount.

[torpid gorge]

Yea

[cedar mica]

Like a valve set to 200, can give 200.9, causing stop after a set time.

[static marsh]

I'm getting ready to set up trains in my 2-player game, and wanted to verify a copule things: Trains and throughput means that it's MORE efficient to send four stacks of 500 wire than five stacks of two hundred cable, right? As in, the more I can cram onto the train, the better?

Second: Fluid cars or packagers?

[ashen girder]

Dealers choice on fluid cars. Just remember you have to deal with the empties.

[edgy leaf]

yes because it's limited to 8 bits...

#fuckvalves

[cedar mica]

Depends on your belt speed and how often trains arrive. 2000 wires vs 1000 cables.

[ashen girder]

Valves are the only way my 600+360 works. 😭

[static marsh]

we've got mk 4 belts right now

[cedar mica]

125 sec to load 1000 items, 250 sec to load 2000 items.

[proud totem]

CSS should've represented everything as Cauchy sequences of rationals in order to have infinite precision SMH 😂

[static marsh]

items, not stacks?

[cedar mica]

Belts dont care about stacks, just throughput speed.

[autumn current]

Anyone got a aluminum factory without alternative recipes

[edgy leaf]

my issue isn't that the valves are 8bit, but that the game pretends that they have more precision

[static marsh]

okay, I'm a little lost now on the ideal course: if I can just have extra trains, do I need to care about the stack size for moving them around?

[edgy leaf]

you can set it to 300.05 but the valves just ignore that

[static marsh]

I was under the impression trains went most efficiently if they had large-stack-size items

[ashen girder]

They even continue lying if you close the window and reopen it.

[proud totem]

I do wish they wouldn't round the UI

[cedar mica]

Calculate travel time and then how fast the belts can feed the wagons. A 480 belt will feed 480 cable or 480 wire a minute, regardless of stacksize...

Yes, wire stacks higher in the wagon, but it also needs 2.5 times longer to fill it.

[static marsh]

Oh, was it trucks that get everything all at once?

[proud totem]

Meaning you will either need faster belts or more stations (and therefore cars) to load into faster

[cedar mica]

I'm not talking the loading animation, I'm talking the station buffer.

The train cant grab 32 stacks of wire, if the station just has 10 available...

[proud totem]

I honestly haven't ever had to be too concerned with filling up a train car, more I have been concerned if I can load the items fast enough given the ~27s stop

[autumn current]

Anyone got a aluminum factory without alternative recipes

[static marsh]

ah; I was planning on the station buffer not mattering due to having excess that I can siphon off when I get there and sinking the rest. Either that or enough trains in the seme loop so that I won't care about train inventory space

[proud totem]

So I'd go with cable personally if you are just gonna turn the wire into cable anyways

[static marsh]

... and I'm realizing just how confused I was

[cedar mica]

Each wagon as two inputs and outputs... Just use storage as buffer to account for the loading/unloading... From/Too station with 2 belts, one to factory.

[proud totem]

Correct, but I had a problem where 2 480 belts (total of 960 items/min) could not handle 900 items/min on one station. The buffer did help yes, but the 60items/min excess could not handle how much built up in the buffer during stops

Yeah, that's the better idea, 1 to/from factory, 2 from/to station

I settled somewhere around needing 50% belt speed headroom on my setup

[edgy leaf]

they should round the valve ui. not doing that is the issue

[prisma kraken]

or fix the math behind it to allow for finer flow control

[edgy leaf]

one or the other

[ashen girder]

They work great for my use case. 👀

[prisma kraken]

or just remove them from the game entirely as the easy solution

[edgy leaf]

what do you use them for?

[prisma kraken]

i'm guessing decoration

[edgy leaf]

I use them to monitor flow sometimes because they show fluid with decimal places

set to 100% flow obvsly

[ashen girder]

Clamping a 600 pipe to 440 so I can fit 360+440.

[edgy leaf]

is that even possible?

like, 440 specifically

[ashen girder]

Want the save? 😁

Beats me.

Doesn't really matter if it's 439 or 441.

I should gradually increase it and see where it breaks.

[onyx breach]

Recycling water for aluminium don't cause any problems right?

[stone delta]

I need clarification on the alien power augmentor. I thought there 30 percent power boost did not stack, however in game it looked like they stacked on the same power grid. Is this intended or will this be patched out?

[spare marsh]

looking for the nitro rocket fuel recipe i stumbled upon this, is this beneficial if i want to make a mega rocket fuel power plant?

[old tree]

sigh my aluminum plant drowned again in water from alu scrap production. Is there some idiot proof way to handle the water without sinking it in some form? The waste water and fresh water are already in seperate networks.

[ashen girder]

It works as intended currently. 👍

[brisk smelt]

nuclear plants

technically not sinking 😉

[old tree]

Yeah, either that or diluted fuel into fuel gens 😞

[plucky tusk]

theres a blender recipe

[old tree]

It's just frustrating because my math should work out

Do you also need to prioritize your scrap refineries taking in the alumina solution from the recycled water before taking it from the fresh water network?

[wary tulip]

Set up a priority water system to take the waste water first and use fresh only when needed.

[old tree]

Is this still the way to go or can we replace the pumps with valves now?

[edgy leaf]

wdym with "now"?

[old tree]

Afaik this used to be the method before valves were added

[edgy leaf]

well, valves are also in that book

[old tree]

what book?

[edgy leaf]

well, pdf

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MdZ8Xr8P_SF_FL7B6WDjCZGS-x9Cwt-x/view

[old tree]

Nice. Is this pinned somewhere?

[edgy leaf]

yep, its in #welcome and in the first pinned message of this channel

[old tree]

ah, the reddit link. Thanks 👍

[brisk smelt]

make a section of refineries that run only off wastewater

[old tree]

I've already done that. It still clogs up.

[edgy leaf]

means u did the numbers wrong

[plain rivet]

if you sloop the scrap refineries and clock them correctly they can produced exactly as much water as the alumina refineries need and you don't need any fresh water

[edgy leaf]

or u put a bit of effort into it and dont need to use any sloops

[plain rivet]

you act like that's a lack of effort

it think it's an neat way to have no water extractors at your aluminum plant

[old tree]

This is the setup.

[plain rivet]

maybe not the best use of sloops but interesting

[edgy leaf]

i mean, i dont see any reason to do that unless it reduces effort. or if its just for the novely of having something like that

[old tree]

This is how I seperated the fresh water from the waste water.

[edgy leaf]

i wouldnt recommend it as a solution to refineries clogging

[old tree]

Now, do I also need to prioritize the alumina solution intake?

So that it strictly priortizes the alumina solution coming from the recycled water?

[plain rivet]

if you're keeping them separate, you need a total of 480 water, the recipe calls for 200. the scrap is feeding back 366. So you'd have 2 alumina refineries using just the feedback water set at 366/400 %

and one refinery using just fresh water at 144 / 200 %

or whateve rhta tadds up to. 510 not 480

sorry, 336/ 400 not 366

now it's 480. typo in my head

[old tree]

yup, 2 out of the 3 refineries are running purely on 336 of waste water

[edgy leaf]

funny, with this setup it prioritizes the lower one:

[old tree]

the 3rd one is running on 144 fresh water. They are all clocked accordingly.

[edgy leaf]

and with this it prioritizes the higher one

[ashen girder]

Don't suppose you'd be willing to share your save? 😁

[old tree]

I can if you wanna take a look

[ashen girder]

Sure, DM it and I'll check it out in a little bit!

[plain rivet]

and the scrap refineries are stalling becuase they have nowhere to put their 336?

you don't need any of that VIP nonsense that nobody actually knows why it works if you separate the two

[old tree]

yes, they are eventually clogging up, although they are feeding two out of the three alumina refineries

Two refineries clocked like this should take care of the waste water, but they don't really

But I haven't prioritized anything in the alumina solution piping, so I wonder if that could be the culprit.

[plain rivet]

what do you mean prioritized anything in the alumina solution piping? the outpus?

[old tree]

I mean so that the scrap refineries would prioritize taking the alumina solution from the refineries that recycle the water over the one using fresh water.

[plain rivet]

were the alumina machines running off recycled water at less than 100%?

[old tree]

yes, as you can see in the screenshot

[plain rivet]

that screen shot shows it operating at 100%

[old tree]

oh, I thought you mean clock speed

no, both at 100%

[plain rivet]

prioritizing it's output implies the problem you are tyring to solve is that it's output is not getting fully consumed, so it slows down, so the waste wateer backs up

but if they're both at 100% i don't see how prioritizing their output will do anything.

really weird honestly. splitting them is what you do to avoid these problems

[flint rapids]

Is there some button combination to copy the result out of in-game calculator?

[old tree]

The waste water isn't connected to the fresh water

[glossy wagon]

This site is too complicated for someone with my IQ.. I've tried messing around with it but i dont understand it

[plain rivet]

that's what i mean. having two different water feeds and two "sets" of alumina refineries at different clock speeds is the price you pay for not having to worry about vip junctions and merging the feedback etc. but not in your case somehow

[old tree]

Why? You punch in your desired end product and it builds you your ratios. You can also configure which recipes to use.

[old tree]

I wish it was only my math that's off. That would be an easy solution.

[ashen girder]

It's so interesting to me how so many people put their equipment workshop in the same place.

[plain rivet]

ther'es not like a mk1 pipe stuck in there somwhere? also i know it's only a 2 machine manifold and it's only 336 going through mk2 but if you add a loop to the input manifild on the 2 waste water alumina refineries...

[old tree]

lol, you having a tour through my base?

[ashen girder]

Gotta get blade runners and hover pack.

I think this is the 3rd save where the equipment workshop was along the back of the HUB like that.

[old tree]

spare blade runners in the box next to the awesome shop

found them in the doggo cave

[ashen girder]

I just crafted them out of your DD. 😄

[glossy wagon]

I guess im not foward enough thinking.. I know I want aluminum alcad sheet but i dont know how much of that I want... I guess I'll get the answer to that when I try and make other parts.. i Literally just got to Phase 4

[old tree]

Depending on your tech level, you're usually bottle necked by what miners and belts you have access to.

My damn alu setup can run for 2-3 hours but then it clogs the fuck up.

[ashen girder]

Which machine clogs up?

[old tree]

scrap refineries drown in their water output

It's a modest setup running off of one bauxite mine.

[ashen girder]

Yeah, I don't see any clear reason it should be backingup.

[old tree]

Math should check out, right?

[ashen girder]

I think so, yeah.

I starved the recycled alumina refineries of bauxite to back up the whole system intentionally.

[old tree]

Also, I usually make a template tab where I configure all my alt recipes and then clone that tab for any further production lines.

[old tree]

They'll just stop making alumina then, no?

[ashen girder]

Yep, but it forces the recycled water to lock up.

It's a way to stress test it.

[jagged vortex]

Ugh why can't mk3 belts just move 300 items/min... I have an area where there's about 6 impure iron veins near each other, what level of OC does a drill 2 to hit capacity?

[old tree]

In my experience, after flushing the recycled water out, it can keep running fine for hours until it clogs up again.

[jagged vortex]

Or is there a calculator for that

[ashen girder]

Just to make you angry.

[ashen girder]

I didn't flush the recycled water.

[old tree]

Do I need to consider rounding errors or build in some tolerance with the clock speeds of the alumina refineries?

[ashen girder]

I dunno yet.

[old tree]

Here's a bit of an overview https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/wiki/Miner

[jagged vortex]

It only shows 100-250% OC

[ashen girder]

You can't OC more than 250%.

[jagged vortex]

Oh wait hold on

I meant a slash but I was on the ore page

[ashen girder]

Oh. Well, an impure on a Mk2 with Mk3 belt can run at 250%. 😅

[jagged vortex]

Yeah I'm not good with words

[ashen girder]

A normal can run up to 225%.

Pure up to 112.5%

[jagged vortex]

I just need to find some sort of balance so I can get these 6 imp nodes to make some steel.

[spiral wigeon]

Is there a way to set it so that my nuclear generators only come on if my power is gonna go out? Tryna minimize waste till I can start recycling it

[old tree]

Did you start in Grasslands?

[ashen girder]

So you can fit 2 impures at 225% on one Mk3 belt.

[jagged vortex]

Yep

[old tree]

Don't

[jagged vortex]

Why

[ashen girder]

That's probably wrong, actually. 🤣

[old tree]

It has mostly garbage resource nodes

especially for early game

[jagged vortex]

Is the desert better

[old tree]

anything is better

[jagged vortex]

rocky desert*

[spiral wigeon]

Rocky deserts my fav place to start

[old tree]

I'm on team Northern Forest

[jagged vortex]

Do blueprints save from file to file at least?

I really don't want this beautiful mess to be reset.

[wind spade]

especially for early game they are great because most of the time you're limited by belt speed, not miner

[wind spade]

"better" depends on your preferences

[old tree]

You still have to expand earlier

[wind spade]

that's how the game is supposed to be played, according to devs and ADA

[jagged vortex]

According to Tango the resource nodes are bad

[wind spade]

there's tons of them, the purity doesn't matter much really

[jagged vortex]

Yeah I think I'll stay here for now.

It's like 20 hours.

Just gotta balance these 6 impure nodes out.

[old tree]

You just get more bang for the buck if you can run fewer miners

[ashen girder]

Y'know, I have never seen a system that can block like this, but it makes sense. 🤔

[old tree]

Are you saying you're getting to the bottom of this?

[jagged vortex]

Actually 6 nodes are kinda perfect.

4 miners at 200% + 2 miners at 100% split in half is 270

And 270 ore is 6 foundries.

[ashen girder]

I'm saying I suddenly realize why you might not want to split fresh and recycled. I think it does come down to the split from the water and not splitting the alumina.

Because if the recycled alumina refineries hiccup, which is a thing that happens, the freshwater refinery has a chance to fill up the alumina manifold. If it does, it'll eventually deadlock.

[old tree]

That was my hunch as well.

[edgy leaf]

lmao what this pump is running continuously even though its not connected to anything

[amber umbra]

The above sounds like it’s happening to my Al setup (heinous comment).

[ashen girder]

Hey, air's still a fluid.

[old tree]

That's what I meant earlier by having to prioritize alumina input from the recycling refineries into scrap production.

I haven't done that

[ashen girder]

Yeah, so I replaced all the pipes with Mk2 pipes and all the belts/lifts with Mk5, then connected the freshwater refinery to the others, and threw 5 junctions on the freshwater line.

[old tree]

@plain rivet told me nah

[ashen girder]

Gotta make sure and sacrifice your goats.

[old tree]

I'm guilty of not using faster belts and pipes than necessary

[old tree]

Thank you so much for even taking the time and looking into this ❤️ Appreciate it 👍

[ashen girder]

I learn new things every time I do this!

I quite enjoy it. 😄 I have another save to check out too. 😁

[old tree]

The troubleshooter making house visits almost

[old tree]

Does this work reliably for you?

[ashen girder]

Are you saying my VIP is too fancy? 👀

[old tree]

What do all these junctions do?

[edgy leaf]

i have no clue

i didnt even try it without the valves

[brisk smelt]

275 mf/min 😋 soon-to be 45 PCC + 10 HMF

[ashen girder]

Man. I love how idiotic these junctions are, and I love that it actually seems like it works.

#GreatDesign

[edgy leaf]

you(r efficiency) was killed by [intentional game design]

(me when i click on a bed in the nether or end)

[ashen girder]

Okay, so. First solution @old tree, I rebuilt it my way. The recycled and fresh water join at a junction before any of the consumers. An extra junction on the fresh water line. I updated the clockspeeds to run each alumina at 80%.

That looks like this.

[glass girder]

what is a good amount of encased beams to aim for in the first factory (automating them to use for building and not in a recipe)

[peak edge]

A Valve with no modifications made to it still prevents backflow correct?

[edgy leaf]

i did 80

[edgy leaf]

valvess dont prevent backflow.

[scenic cloud]

I ran one assembler, and underclocked it occasionally

[edgy leaf]

*80, not 8

[peak edge]

Did they patch that out? I'm reading that it prevents backflow

[edgy leaf]

it prevents fluid from going through the valve backwards, but it does not prevent backflow

[peak edge]

so yes for my use case it prevents water from going back down the pipe, thanks

[old tree]

How does this prioritize recycled over fresh water?

[edgy leaf]

no it doesnt

why do u think you need a valve?

[ashen girder]

Great question.

[peak edge]

does headlift prevent backflow?

[edgy leaf]

uhhhh, no. nothing prevents backflow.

but backflow isnt osmething that needs to be prevented.

why do you think you need to prevent backflow?

[peak edge]

so if i run a pipe at a steep angle within an extractors 12m headlift range, I can be certain the pipe further down will have the required amount of water and it wont pool within the steep pipe?

[edgy leaf]

if your headlift is sufficient, yes. valves wont help with that at all

[peak edge]

there's my answer, thanks

[edgy leaf]

tho even without headlift theres no backflow in that scenario

theres just noflow.

[ashen girder]

Solution #2, @old tree, if you'd rather keep them separate, my pat.pending JVIP on the Alumina line.

[old tree]

lol what do the junctions do?

[ashen girder]

The winds up with the two recycled water alumina refineries staying empty, while the freshwater one backs up.

[ashen girder]

No, seriously, I have no idea.

[edgy leaf]

the junctions are for magic.

[ashen girder]

So far I've seen:

• the reduction in headlift causes it to prioritize one line
• the game explicitly prioritizes the line with the fewest junctions
• floating point errors. 🤣

Also, to be clear, I reloaded your original save, reflooded the system the same way.

And re-updated the pipes and belts to max. 😂

[old tree]

the game explicitly prioritizes the line with the fewest junctions
👀

[ashen girder]

Oh, and #4: something about pipe length.

But, yeah. No idea. What I do know:
if you combine two input flows in a junction, the side with fewer junctions usually gets prioritized over the other side.

I have no idea why.

And you can tell it's prioritizing. The two left refineries are at 99/98%. The right one is at 93%.

It started at like 70% and 20%/20%.

Just to confirm, this is the water side.

[old tree]

ah, still the initial water setup in your solution #2

[ashen girder]

Yep.

Don't need to do both: I think both should be more robust than how you had it before.

But yeah, it was deadlocking because the freshwater one was more eagerly producing alumina, causing its friends to also backup.

[old tree]

I think I like solution #2

I'll have it prioritize alumina from recycled water somehow

[ashen girder]

Yep yep. Also, another option is to just slap a buffer on it and drain it every 10 or 15 hours. 🤣

[old tree]

That's also an idea that I had but I remember I had it working on my old save. Probably had some VIP setup.

[ashen girder]

Yeah. I'm convinced people are making incidental jank VIPs with junctions just by how they arrange the piping.

[old tree]

This is all quite opaque. I guess giving us the tools for more elegant solutions would "overwhelm the player".

[granite atlas]

Is making fuel factory from top to bottom a good idea

[ashen girder]

Maybe 1.1 can be the Pipes Redux update. 🤣

[granite atlas]

Like instead of bringing everything to a certain level and then on next floor just start at the top floor

[ashen girder]

I'd go the other way. Rocket Fuel's a gas and doesn't have head lift, but Oil and Water are both pumped from ground level.

[ember fractal]

I have a mk2 pipe with 600 rocket fuel feeding 72 fuel gens at 200% OC.
Math says it should be 100% efficient, but I always have a few fuel gens at the end getting starved and turning off and on.
What's going on with that?

[granite atlas]

I'm using regular fuel for now

[ashen girder]

For now.

[granite atlas]

Check machines that make rocket fuel

And it will say their efficiency

[worthy mulch]

did you let them all fill up before starting them?

[edgy leaf]

flooding the system has never worked for me. when there were no issues i could let the system run dry and start it again and it would still work, and when there were issues flooding didnt work

id recommend trying to see if adding random pumps between the fuel gens works. btw, are u perhaps bottomfeeding?

[ember fractal]

hm... monitoring efficiency of blender, it says 93%

[granite atlas]

That's the issue

It doesn't make enough fuel in the first place

[ember fractal]

It has trouble emptying.... sometimes it reache 40 something rocket fuel, and then goes idle

The inputs are always full

[edgy leaf]

loss of efficiency can also happen if it cant get rid of the fluid fast enough

[ember fractal]

My fuel gens are in a tower - 9 floors of 8 fuel gens per floor.
Rocket fuel is a gas, so I shouldn't need pumps, or should I?

[edgy leaf]

yep. either u messed up the numbers on the generators or the pipes feeding the generators have issues

[granite atlas]

mb

[edgy leaf]

you really shouldnt need pumps.

[ember fractal]

That is what seems to be happening

[edgy leaf]

id recommend double checking that ur numbers add up, maybe one fuelgen isnt clocked the way its supposed to be.

if that also doesnt work i personallyw ould start adding random pumps

[ember fractal]

I used blueprints for all of them, so they should all be 200% OC

[edgy leaf]

yea pipes are kinda weird. pumps shouldnt help, especially not with rocket fuel but who knows /shrug/

[ember fractal]

4.166667 * 2 * 72 = 600

[edgy leaf]

@ashen girder whats ur opinion?

[ember fractal]

let me try putting a pump at the blender output

[edgy leaf]

between the generators would also be an idea

[ashen girder]

I would not hesitate slapping pumps all over gas pipes.

[edgy leaf]

man what has this game done to us...

[ashen girder]

But I haven't spent any time messing with gas yet.

[edgy leaf]

yea me neither

worth a try tho, maybe it helps.

[unborn ermine]

Gas having the same flow issues in manifold like situations? Is that what is happening here?

I know my next thing will be a rocket fuel setup

[ember fractal]

I just completed a big rocket fuel setup, I'm using a slooped 200% OC blender to produce 600 rocket fuel.
6 blenders in total, so 3600 rocket fuel.

It's kinda nuts. that nitro rocket fuel alt is high yield, so it benefits very well from being slooped

[unborn ermine]

Wait if a gas dosent have headlift issues, wouldnt looping it wherever work?
like hiding it in the floor or something instead of like my water feed loop, from above?

[ember fractal]

Ok, with the pump, the blender seems to be emptying well now
I'll monitor and see if its efficiency goes to 100%

[old tree]

Why does it have to be pumps here instead of valves? In the sample build, headlift doesn't seem to be an issue.

[unborn ermine]

pumps reset and set headlift to a specific value

[granite atlas]

Is this the perfect spot for rocket fuel power plant?
It has 1680 sulfur
Pure iron node and nitrogen gas nearby

and most importantly oil

[edgy leaf]

because pumps are magic

why is 50 meter of headlift not enough to push fluid up 8 meters?

[unborn ermine]

Having one less variable thats random like varying headlift coming in makes "some" of the psuedo science work.

[ember fractal]

That's where my rocket fuel power plant is

[ashen girder]

'cause floating point errors.

[edgy leaf]

how would that work

[granite atlas]

Is it good

[edgy leaf]

it works when i use 370 meters of headlift (i think, running the experiment rn)

[granite atlas]

According to this I would be able to get 6182 Rocket fuel per minute

1.5k fuel generators tho

[old tree]

you sure that's enough?

[granite atlas]

I've never had like more than 40'000 MW in 500 hours of playing this game

370k MW is an upgrade

[unborn ermine]

I love how a bullshit setup I did with my waste water in my one-off aluminum ingot creation works.
mk2 pump filling large buffer tanks that are stacked 4 high and linked

[old tree]

jk

[granite atlas]

There will be just a slight issue with launching it in the first place

[ashen girder]

Priority power switches go brrrrr.

[ember fractal]

It's a reall good spot, you have coal, sulfur, oil and nitrogen all there

[granite atlas]

Coal too?

Nice

[unborn ermine]

I keep on forgetting to use/unlock those

[granite atlas]

I am not messing with that

[ashen girder]

Why not?

[granite atlas]

idk what I even have to built to use 370'000 MW

[ashen girder]

They're the perfect way to start up a huge powerplant like that.

Connect banks to their own priority group, then turn them on as they stabilize.

[formal plinth]

Power should be fine if you have a power storage. Or if you build slow enough, so that the machines are full as soon as you build the next step.

[granite atlas]

Oh

[ashen girder]

I'm not talking VIPs and other weird things.

!wikisearch PPS

[brisk shore]

https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/index.php?search=PPS

[granite atlas]

about power...

[ashen girder]

THIS IS WHY NOBODY LOVES YOU CHECKIT.

Anyway, this thing: https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/wiki/Priority_Power_Switch

[unborn ermine]

this yeah, I forgot about this when I was setting up a "small" temporary coal plant that uses 780/min coal.
power is always weird when you start with just an augmenter.

[granite atlas]

Building machines until they are full is a good idea tho

[gritty mountain]

The drone only runs on batteries, right? So why does it let me choose my preferred fuel at the station?

[granite atlas]

Yeah , I think I will set up a small power plant to get 40'000 MW , to power my steel factory that needs 10'000 MW and then build it

See no other way where I don't run out of recources and power

[ashen girder]

It runs on packaged fuel, packaged turbofuel, batteries, packaged rocket fuel, packaged ionized fuel, uranium fuel rods, and plutonium fuel rods.

This was a change in 1.0.

[granite atlas]

what about the new uh nuclear rods

[gritty mountain]

wich is better?

[granite atlas]

or whatever they are called

[gritty mountain]

witch

which

[gritty mountain]

between batteries and turbofuel?

[granite atlas]

I think its called Ficsomium

[ashen girder]

Ficsonium Fuel Rods. I dunno, and I can't imagine why you would want to. They're hard to build and not great energy density-wise.

[ashen girder]

P.Fuel < P.Turbofuel < Batteries = P. Rocket Fuel < P. Ionized Fuel < UFR < PFR

!wikisearch drone

[brisk shore]

https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/index.php?search=drone

[ashen girder]

Should have more info on the fuels.

[formal plinth]

In terms of energ density and transport performance yes.
But rocket fuel is so easy to make and still very good though.

[ashen girder]

Yep, that says nothing about complexity or other side effects.

Basically, the only reason to bother with batteries in 1.0 is if you want to build Superstate Computers.

[granite atlas]

Does satisfactory have world height building limit

[unborn ermine]

building? no
death wall? yes

[ashen girder]

2km up.

You get an achievement for getting that high.

[granite atlas]

Giant fuel generator tower

pipe logistics would be pain tho

[idle laurel]

anyone have a list of everything I should automate out of iron? just starting out

[granite atlas]

if I stack 1500 generators with 1 meter foundation between them that would be 27 + 1m multiplied by 1500

Sounds like something LGIO would do

[slate wraith]

So I'm trying to understand this. Originally wanted to try, and I mean try 8 refineries into fuel. That however demanded 2200 crude oil, so I assume off the table.

[granite atlas]

but im not doing that

[unborn ermine]

This is where alt recipes come into play if you want savings.

[slate wraith]

This is more or less me getting a grasp on how to start refinery mastery.

[granite atlas]

something like half life 2 tower for fuel generators would be fun

[formal plinth]

You mean just item names or also how much of each?

[unborn ermine]

Citadel Prison, which works thematically, you are a prisoner doing all the pipe work.

[granite atlas]

https://tenor.com/view/waah-waa-sad-wah-waaah-gif-25875771

[old tree]

same amount of fuel from different recipes

[idle laurel]

item names

[slate wraith]

Well that solves my problem I think. I have these.

[formal plinth]

I dont understand. 6 refineries take 360 oil and make 240 fuel. How do you come up with 2200?

[ashen girder]

DF is one heck of a drug.

[slate wraith]

Okaaaay. Image doesn't wanna play nice.

This.

[old tree]

they typed in 1500 crude as end product

[slate wraith]

Explains a lot. So input 1500 oil instead?

[unborn ermine]

Yeah changing the map total in the inputs to what you have to work with

[old tree]

you only input your desired end product, which is the fuel. Forget about the crude

[formal plinth]

From the top of my head:
iron plate, iron rod, screw, modular frame, rotor and reinforced iron plate.

[idle laurel]

okay nice, thank you

would it be good to make one line of production for each of those

or make multiple

[slate wraith]

That explains a lot more and lets me learn to use this calculator better. Had no idea this even mattered.

I'm at tier 5-6 so I'm trying to figure out whats a decent plastic/rubber production rate.

[formal plinth]

Depends on how much iron you have available

[idle laurel]

i have 12 nodes hooked up

[unborn ermine]

Yeah it helps a ton if you are limiting to how many nodes you want to pull in for a factory.

[granite atlas]

12 nodes? what is bro cooking

[unborn ermine]

if you are going heavy on alternate recipes, usually more rubber, base recipes are more plastic.
Heavy Flex Frame is one I have planned for Fused Frame feeding, so its a large chunk for me.

[slate wraith]

Well I'm inputting the alternate recipes I have available here. I can do regular fuel and a few others.

[formal plinth]

If you want to produce the iron parts and use them for building I would use one for plates, rods and screws, one for rotors, one for modular frames and one for reinforced plates.
If you wanna set up futureproof productions from which you consume later you are gonna ned more than that,

[idle laurel]

im using 5 rn to make smart plating lol

but i might worry about that later

[granite atlas]

what are the rates tho

how much iron you getting out of those nodes

[idle laurel]

im using mk1 miners, still in the beginning stages

[granite atlas]

Oh ok

[idle laurel]

okay bet thanks

[unborn ermine]

What I did for a start, heavy on rubber and less on plastic
but for some setups for later like rocket fuel, I will be making a TON of resin. which I can then be used for extra of what I might need later.

[idle laurel]

yeah im getting 2 smart plates a minute, might wanna use those nodes for something else until i unlock better stuff right?

[slate wraith]

Let me get a list of all my alt recipes I have for use.

Both recycled rubber,plastic, polymer resin, heavy oil residue, both residuals of plastic and rubber.

I've been told I don't need that much rubber.

Plastic on the other hand, I'll assume the worst and that I need a lot.

[formal plinth]

I would not do that.
You dont wanna utilize them because you dont need them.
You will unlock different miners and products that partly require iron. Would be good if you still have some nodes available then.

[idle laurel]

okay so ill focus on the smart plates later then, preciate it

[unborn ermine]

Rubber can be tossed into chains for alts, its literally if you avoid screws and a few other materials.

[slate wraith]

I have steel screws so I'm fine there now.

Before it was cast screws.

[unborn ermine]

See here? My frame factory I have planned needs a good chunk of rubber

[formal plinth]

You could do a flexible setup.
Make your fuel and make one basic production for rubber and one for plastic. Just to start. Sink the access resin.
And whenever you need more rubber or plastic, you can use your resin and make either rubber or plastic whenever you know what you need?
Why set in stone now, if you can be flexible?

[jagged vortex]

Hey thanks for teaching me about manifolds guys. I now have gone from this...

To this!

[formal plinth]

I know heavy flexible frame is theoreticallz best. But heavz encased frame does not need screws though.

[unborn ermine]

I went with this, and my aluminum setup is making a small chunk of recycled plastic, and rocket fuel might do the same.

right now im trying to figure out what I want to do for logistics, the gold coast area is juuuust long enough to suck brining stuff around by belt.

[slate wraith]

The way I'm looking at it is, yes I could split the two off. My current set up is 8 refiners where the oil enters. If I have to loop it with 8 more sure for flow to work.

Since I know people do loop piping to ensure flow stays up there.

Either way piping is involved and thats one skill I'm gonna have to master here.

[unborn ermine]

Piping is weird yeah, just remember, simple pipes with minimal offshoots before your machines.

[slate wraith]

I only do this with a conveyor belts end product right now.

Items getting enough, if overflow, send down.

Hrm. Could I loop the oil pipes around to another 8 refiners into the residue?

Then separate pipes based on what they're doing in their output zone?

[unborn ermine]

Im loading my game so I can show my oil -> residue setup

[slate wraith]

I am not that high off the ground.

I am at ground level...Eastmost oil field?

Oh. Same place.

[unborn ermine]

This kind of feed also works.
its more about the feeding than the height, having headlift to get there is what you need anyways.

The lower fed one wants a full base pipe though to play nice faster

I made these in a weird first go, but its all stable

[ember fractal]

I placed down a blueprint containing 72 Power Storage, and my framerate dropped from 90 to 16
LOL

[jagged vortex]

Hew question.

Sorry for so many I'm new to engineering

Functionally speaking, is there any difference in these pipe manifolds?

[slate wraith]

Do all extractors converge at the same point or bad Idea?

[jagged vortex]

Part of me says yes because of balancing but another part of me says no because of the water basically going into the pipes both ways

[ember fractal]

I would prefer the 2nd one, because you have 2 pipes manifolding, instead of just one. When trying to push a mk2 to its 600 limit, I would imagine you'd have less issues with the 2nd design

[unborn ermine]

Water? Yeah, you just have to math out the connections

[ember fractal]

Also, it would make debugging easier, because you troubleshoot either the left or right side

[slate wraith]

Oil lol.

[unborn ermine]

oil isnt even connected here, they are all 300/min from their nodes

Same concept tho as the water

[magic island]

yes, the first one is more likely to bottleneck

I assume this is for a 3:8 coal plant? if so, the top one woouldn't work, because you'd be trying to push 360 water/min through a pipe that can only carry 300

[ember fractal]

Ok, I was able to fix my 600 rocket fuel issue.
Had to loop the pipe around.

Mk2 pipes carrying 600 seem to really dislike long manifolds

[jagged vortex]

Yeah a 3:8 coal plant. I was trying to make sure it was working like that to not overcap capacity, so thanks for confirming that.

[unborn ermine]

Nice, gotta keep that in mind for my setup.

[jagged vortex]

With how water kinda flows in both directions I just didn't know if doing it the split way actually helped at all.

[ember fractal]

When trying to manifold a mk2 pipe, I find the best solution is to feed it to the middle of the manifold, meaning it splits 2 ways initially.
And also, looping around seems to help

[unborn ermine]

I end up using coal gens weird, I feed from the middle and raise up water from 2 extractors.

[jagged vortex]

Well I ain't that far yet so let's hold off on that nonsense lol

[slate wraith]

Well I mean, the refineries I have plans to throw down, happen to be between the 2 pure oil extractors.

So combining the pipes would be a thing, but...Not sure if bad idea or not.

[unborn ermine]

This is how I do my mess, its just tall enough to allow the extractors to be right below

(this is a 780/min setup with sharding the machines)

[slate wraith]

My brain hurts and is drawing a blank not on the math but the design to get this to work.

Rather what way to face refiners, since my original plan would be that, but turned 90 degrees.

[slate wraith]

Are those all making fuel or one thing or is one side a respective thing?

[unborn ermine]

Thats my coal power setup

[slate wraith]

...Can I make this work for oil refineries? I have a whole thing but I have flexibility and its somewhat throwing me off lol.

[unborn ermine]

I think you can, just remember long/busy pipes can be nasty.

[slate wraith]

Even if looped around?

[unborn ermine]

I havent tried any gross setups for a long while.

[slate wraith]

I've seen people basically have pipes go all the way around their machines in a somewhat manifold shape, but to circulate around I would think.

By this point my brain is not comprehending where to start, or the graph isn't making full sense for step 1 to complete to step 2.

[unborn ermine]

This is what I do for the plastic, this for each line.

[slate wraith]

Does residual fuel lead into more fuel or no. Thats what I'm more or less trying to grasp. Like If I start with purely fuel, does it give less? If I start with residual does it give more?

It feels like my brain is really overcomplicating this, likely is but seeing piping and then trying to keep it orderly is a thing.

[unborn ermine]

Idealy you go heavy oil -> diluted and call it a day

[gritty mountain]

Thanks

[prisma kraken]

yeah, the two base fuel recipes sort of blow and you don't use them once you have dilluted/packaged fuel

[unborn ermine]

This kind of setup(with more space) is what you would go for.

[slate wraith]

I have diluted packaged fuel, but diluted fuel it seems.

[unborn ermine]

Packaged is... a thing
I waited until I had blenders myself

[slate wraith]

I have blenders. I just do not have an ounce of understanding them yet.

[prisma kraken]

there's two recipes: dilluted packaged fuel and dilluted fuel. the packaged variation takes packaged water & hor through a pipe and makes packaged fuel in a refinery, the other which is a blender recipe takes a pipe of water and a pipe of hor and makes a pipe of fuel

they both are 1hor + 2 water = 2 fuel

cycle times and yields differ but the conversion ratio is the same

[slate wraith]

Well I have 20 hard drives left to use.

I'll hope for the fuel.

[unborn ermine]

EZ clap

Nice part is, as you go it will be easier, since you can hold onto two recipes each time.

[slate wraith]

Well I'm willing to sit for hours to make a machinery lane look good and spacious for to walk in.

I can sit for 2 hours more in hopes of fuel.

Whatever makes the puzzle parts fall into a complete system my brain can sort, practice and reinforce like memory.

[unborn ermine]

Even better to run around for more HD, mercer, and sloops while you do it.

[slate wraith]

Did that enough yesterday for like 40.

So thats a good portion of them out of the way.

[prisma kraken]

i only have a small bit of dune desert left to clear

[slate wraith]

The center is all I have left if I start from the grassy fields.

Just work my way north from the drives there and I pretty much have them all. I somehow did left, right and bottom first lol.

[prisma kraken]

i think the swamp, titan forest & pink forest all sort of suck to clear. probably titan forest is the worst due to the nuke hogs

[unborn ermine]

Sooooon
only have two drives left to grab, slugs can stay there unless I am within grabbing distance.

[slate wraith]

The swamp I did all but oscillator one.

I do not have one of those and no sites are wanting to hand me one lol.

[prisma kraken]

yeah, i have the swamp oscillator hd still to grab

[unborn ermine]

I still have that one, and the green stinger crew in the red forest

[vapid gorge]

depends, is this for coal power? what mk is the pipe? how much fluid are yo utrying to do ?

[prisma kraken]

i have all the sloops and nearly all the spheres

[edgy leaf]

your dedication to collecting slugs is incredible

u must really hate them

gotta grind them up and turn them into crystals

[prisma kraken]

this is all i have left

[slate wraith]

I have no idea how many spheres and sloops I have. Probably not a dent at all.

If I’m really that pressed for them I will just teleport repeatedly.

[prisma kraken]

i gotta say clearing the spire cost is kind of a fun activity to do

[slate wraith]

Part of me says do so because I enjoy hearing whatever it is, speak of windows and such is funny.

[edgy leaf]

yea i love the conversations

[slate wraith]

Is it a slow process and boring teleporting around?

Yeah, jetpack though with no fuel AND my patience wears thin at times with collections of mass items.

You can ask me to collect maybe 25 items, but there’s not a chance I was ever gonna do AC2’s feathers.

I still need a station to mass produce me rifle ammo.

[unborn ermine]

imagine not having biofuel supplied into the depot when doing this.

[prisma kraken]

i almost wish that they didn't add the depot... it kind of ruins the need to ever travel back home

or even needing a home, lol

[unborn ermine]

I still have not made a gun.
yeah I made a rebar gun but I forget it at home and havent made ammo.

[fringe pawn]

Eh, hypertubes already gave you instant travel if you chained entrances.

[unborn ermine]

home is where the doggos live, and supply free fused frames ect.

[prisma kraken]

i kind of feel like the portals end up being too late in game to really matter

[pastel obsidian]

I feel like the end game is missing something

[fringe pawn]

There's still strategy in depots. I have blueprints that need over 1,000 concrete, so finding that balance of how many depots and how much upload speed you need is a little interesting.

[prisma kraken]

agreed, you kind of get to a 'and now what?' point

[unborn ermine]

its got the same loop/start as factorio, it just needs a task after or at end game.

Factorio has actually had the time to flesh out the end.

[prisma kraken]

boosting speed by adding more isn't strategy, it's common sense

[pastel obsidian]

making diamonds is really not that hard

time crystals

[prisma kraken]

no it isn't, the hard part is marshalling the resources

[fringe pawn]

You'd think so, but there was definitely someone arguing that malls aren't obsolete the other day.

[ashen girder]

They're as important and useful as they've ever been.

[prisma kraken]

i still haven't built a proper one

[unborn ermine]

tbh its a 50/50
sometimes you want something you dont need in a depot buffer.

[slate wraith]

I’d work on one at my mega base proper, but it needs to be shaped.

[ashen girder]

Yeah. They've never actually been a particularly important part of the game.

[fringe pawn]

Is it 201 spheres once you've research everything? That's plenty so you can have every item, including multiple for high demand items like concrete.

[unborn ermine]

[fringe pawn]

I've been meaning to make a spreadsheet to lay out where I want extra upload speed.

[ashen girder]

I've got five setup for steel beams. 😂

And I have blueprints now that require more steel than my depot actually holds.

[fringe pawn]

Yeah, the 200 stack size hits hard on steel once you start making proper buildings.

[pastel obsidian]

would it be possible to run a factory only using Converter, Reanimated SAM and liquids (with sloops)

[unborn ermine]

Yeah once I get going, thats my plan, beams/concrete ect alongside my one factory making a tiny extra amount.

[unborn ermine]

Tools seems to think so sometimes

[ashen girder]

Funny thing about global weighting.

[unborn ermine]

Global weight my butt. Make SAM way more expensive

(probably wouldnt matter anyways)

[slate wraith]

I still need to unlock turbo fuel.

Its there, i can nab it. I just need packaged fuel lol.

[unborn ermine]

fun fact, you can get turbo recipes in hard drives before unlocking it. (currently)

[slate wraith]

At this point I'm just half trying to learn math via the calculator, and placements for the factory.

Feels like thats the disconnect. If I don't have a blueprint in the brain, I can't just shove stuff down and do math. Has to be organized and let me have space to make it organized so I don't lose the marbles.

Modularity brain go brrrt.

[fringe pawn]

I have my portal strategy figured out. I'm going to have 5-10 master portals at home, and I'm just going to try and remember to always close portal links behind me. Maybe I'll leave a few open permanently.

I have 20ppm cells planned.

[slate wraith]

Diluted fuel is evasive.

18 drives to go before I have to hunt lol.

[pastel obsidian]

have you unlocked blenders

[slate wraith]

Might explain a bit.

[pastel obsidian]

I was tempted to let you keep going

[slate wraith]

Wheres the blender then? Tier 7/8?

[pastel obsidian]

Last one in T7

[slate wraith]

...So I'm stuck with regular fuel to work with it is.

Alright. Challenge accepted.

[edgy leaf]

is there anyone online rn thats into the fluid stuff?

[fringe seal]

what train lengths do you people use?

[edgy leaf]

4

[fringe seal]

huh.

[pastel obsidian]

1, 2 or 4

[fringe seal]

1 locomotive, 3 cars?

[edgy leaf]

no, 1 loco 4 cars

[pastel obsidian]

1 loco and 1, 2 or 4 wagons

[spare jolt]

hey all. will achievements still be locked if I load the previous save in the same world but with AGS disabled?

[fringe seal]

aight

[edgy leaf]

if it is a child of a save with AGS then achievements are disabled

[pastel obsidian]

it shouldnt

[spare jolt]

no, if I load a save before the one with AGS that has AGS disabled

[edgy leaf]

if u dont load it with ags active then achievements wont be disabled

[fringe seal]

I don't claim I am but posting the context might help

[spare jolt]

perfect, thanks

[pastel obsidian]

what do you need

[edgy leaf]

this here doesnt run at 600m3/min

on the bottom left is a fluid spawner, top right is a fluid sink

adding a pump to it makes it run at 600m3/min perfectly.

why?

[fringe seal]

this is something I have experienced too tbh but at lower throughput

[pastel obsidian]

its the way liquids move in pipes

[edgy leaf]

it is the way it is because thats the way things do be

why does my phone fall when i let go of it? because phones do that.

[fringe seal]

dubious hypothesis: less space for the fluid to slosh back

[ember fractal]

i've been seeing similar issue with mk2 pipes expected to carry 600

[fringe seal]

so less backflow issue?

[quiet breach]

Where do we have fluid spawners and fluid sinks?

[edgy leaf]

mods

[quiet breach]

Ahhhh

[edgy leaf]

if i remove the thing on the bottom it works at 600m3 too

[pastel obsidian]

Blue is initial flow red is secondary and the blight blue is backflow

[edgy leaf]

okay why would a pump help with that?

[ember fractal]

pump allows flow only one way

[pastel obsidian]

not for that sectaion between the pipe and junction

[ember fractal]

so it stops the light blue backflow i guess?

[edgy leaf]

neither pumps nor valves stop backflow

[pastel obsidian]

if 10 water is backflowing the pump can only pump 590

[ember fractal]

i thought both pumps and valves act similar to diodes, and allow flow only 1 way

[pastel obsidian]

only where the pump is

[fringe seal]

same

[ember fractal]

i mean it doesn't allow flow from the segment after the pipe, to the segment before the pipe

[edgy leaf]

the pipe guide from mcgalleon explains it

backflow isnt real.

[slate wraith]

Also I had a stupid idea to work around until I get blenders.

I can make packaged diluted fuel.

[ember fractal]

i've heard so many myths and stories about pipes that I don't even know anymore

[slate wraith]

What if I throw back into another packager?

[edgy leaf]

wait what a valves works in that

okay this needs more investigation. usually valves dont do anything....

[pastel obsidian]

all your problems will me solved if the input is at the top of the junction i belive you can test it

[edgy leaf]

i dont have problems.

[slate wraith]

You play satisfactory.

[edgy leaf]

i mean, im not trying to solve a problem

its like telling osmeone thats doing car crash tests with crash dummies to figure out how to protect people to just not crash ur cars against the wall and then ur crash test dummies wont be destroyed

i want things to fail because i want to find out how and why they fail

[slate wraith]

I mean, I get it. Machines failing is not a thing I like seeing but my brain does troubleshooting with modular thinking.

Especially the pipes.

[edgy leaf]

wdym with modular thinking?

[slate wraith]

Steps per construction. If my assemblers were having issues, I could just check the split point.

[edgy leaf]

yea i do that too

[slate wraith]

If I have issues, its usually just modular designing that I can check every machine if its having issues and work from there lol.

[edgy leaf]

did you know that my wet concrete setup doesnt work with 10 meters of headlift. it also doesnt work with 20 meters of headlift. it also doesnt work with 50 meters of headlift

it does work with 370 meters of headlift

[slate wraith]

Sections make troubleshooting fun. 🙂

[edgy leaf]

yes, its as isolated as can be

the biggest height difference in that setup is 8 meters.

why does it need 370 meters of headlift.

[slate wraith]

I'm about to make a pipe wall high into the sky a little lol.

Just to carry up oil, but oil is oil.

Time to try and make it a neat pipe up, but Mk2's go brrrt.

[edgy leaf]

u joke but thats what i did to make it work

[slate wraith]

I can't see the refiners but that is....I wish to do that so gravity keeps me stocked lol.

Less pumps on my end.

[edgy leaf]

well its not the gravity keeping it sotcked

a mk1 pump made them run better

u might say thats because a mk1 pump prevents backflow, but replacing htat same mk1 pump with a mk2 pump made it run even better.

so unless u say a mk2 pump stops backflow even harder it cant be because of backflow

[slate wraith]

Actually do pipes do that with liquids automatically?

[edgy leaf]

backflow isnt real

[slate wraith]

If it goes up, does gravity actually help them down faster?

[unborn ermine]

Side question about rocket fuel... does 2600/min to start seem like a bad choice

[slate wraith]

I don't grasp pipe mechanics save for at a novice level to get my coal plants running.

[slate wraith]

...Can you make it work is the better question?

[unborn ermine]

The story so far. I have 1200 free + the Well in the gold coast free (900/min total)

[slate wraith]

Also its about that time I do need to redo my factory. Again.

At least when the oil is running.

[unborn ermine]

Both love and hate figuring out what to do here

[slate wraith]

Since I don't have diluted fuel, the other option is stupid.

Package fuel. Send it to packager to unpack it.

Or too complicated.

Nope wouldn't work.

Fuel it is.

[slender sandal]

its never really worth slooping any machine except the very last one in a production line right?

[unborn ermine]

I think theres a couple cases for mid production ones, but mostly last ones.

People mention it from time to time, but I cant remember the production chain that benefits from that tho.

[slate wraith]

I mean I'm trying to construct compact modular lanes that now produce space elevator parts.

It is a whole redesign because I used space poorly and spaced out too much.

So eeeeeeeeeh. If it makes heavy frames, smart stuff and into the manufacturers lane, I care not lol.

[low flume]

is there an easy way to reset the fluid in fuel generators?

[edgy leaf]

this here cant hit 600 flowrate

but this here can.

[unborn ermine]

Drag the fuel to the trash icon

[loud ivy]

how to make it start with 4 instead of crafting two then the somersloop working

[low flume]

oh thank you so much. just switched 80 generators to RF and really didn't want to rebuild all of that

[unborn ermine]

use a garbage recipe first, to prime the machine

the sloop needs that to be functional.

[unborn ermine]

🙏
Sadly still running from machine to machine, would be nice if we had that copy paste function and preferred fuels from jetpack functionality.

[low flume]

yeah. it's especially painful with how I set it up but it's much better than rebuilding all of this

[unborn ermine]

this would be recipe, and then its copy/paste from there.
PLEASE GAME
might make a question site thing for it if it dosent already have one.

[low flume]

that would be very nice. or just make it flush in the pipe network it's attached to

[unborn ermine]

Since copy paste functionallity only works if something has a recipe.
AND the fact we can just delete fuel rn like it was a machine.

[loud ivy]

whats the link for that

.. i need flavor text everywhere like with the gas extractors... why did they only put it there 😦

[unborn ermine]

http://questions.satisfactorygame.com/

I keep forgetting to login

[quiet breach]

What do you mean by this?

Maybe i been using them wrong is why i ask

[unborn ermine]

So like, say I want to sloop super computers.
I make one Heavy Frame first, THEN swap it to super computers.

[quiet breach]

With the sloops in there? And what does this do?

[unborn ermine]

It starts the slooping, so it dosent "waste" the resources on that first craft you wanted.

Though blenders kinda suck for that

[quiet breach]

Ohhh by doing manually ?

[unborn ermine]

Yeah

[quiet breach]

Got it, ok. I wasn’t sure. Thought I may not have been using it right

Thanks man

[unborn ermine]

Oh no its just weirdly implemented.
I think it should work like shards from the start.

[quiet breach]

Yeah would be good.

[plucky violet]

Guys is this what they mean by building vertically?
It doesnt feel quite right, i mean, the smeltrys are place 9 meters apart to avoid overlap(2 4 meter founds, and a 1 meter!)

And i need to double this

Or should i do it horizontally and just build the other resources on top?

[verbal lake]

Play however you want.

[plucky violet]

idk how i want, just going for efficiency

[verbal lake]

define efficiency

[magic island]

when the game suggests building vertically, what is meant is "make buildings with multiple floors" lmao

[plucky violet]

well tbf i built up foundations to get the smeltrys to those levels xD

Maybe i should do a layer for copper, horizontally, and another for iron and ect.
That way the manifolds can be easier(their not fun setting up vertically like that XD)

[slate wraith]

Okay. So is this telling me, if I want to make heavy oil residue, I'd need...20 of these?

[magic island]

in general, a manifold of machines doing the same thing are best laid out horizontally. works best with mergers and splitters

when you build a factory for a multi-step process, it can be useful to have different steps occurring on different floors.

ie, smelting ingots on the first floor, sending them to constructors on the second floor, and so forth

[slate wraith]

22.5 I assume being a thing working at 50%?

[plucky violet]

i think the x means 22 and a half(50%) refinerys

looked at both those sites now and i think i like scim better

[slate wraith]

So 23, but its at 50. This is correct for 600 fuel, correct?
Also this doesn't make a giant spider web.

I can't handle the spider web.

[plucky violet]

the last 23rd refinery at 50% yes

[unborn ermine]

Yes, you can do some really weird numbers as well and spread that between as many machines as you can.
Like this!
3 machines at 100%
and 20 others at 97.5%

in general iirc its better for power, but its minimal

[slate wraith]

Time to restructure again and add a loop of pipes.

I have 10 refineries in a line right now. I am not doing a straight 20.

[plucky violet]

suggestion

why not do what i did and stack 2 on top of eachother

its only two so shouldnt matter much in height

[unborn ermine]

Fun fact you "can" still do a flat row of machines 10x long, just loop it on the side at the end.

[plucky violet]

and will just need a vertical conveyer

[slate wraith]

I have a whole 20 down, decent spaced for a pipe output of heavy oil to travel.

So I can loop around the 10, to the other 10 and try this.

I just need to make that pipe wall.

[slate wraith]

So would this make it...22 machines then? Or still 23 with that setting?

[unborn ermine]

Think this weird thing, but at the end you have that one last machine.
11 row split into two, and looped.

[slate wraith]

This looks doable. Is this at ground level for the first one?

[unborn ermine]

I have my feeds propped up a pipe and a bit for logistics

Since machines do a 10m headlift, nothing is lost.

[slate wraith]

Huh. I just have...This right now? Gimme a moment.

Brain says turn these 90, pipe down the line that splits off and yet rotates around.

I assume this could work, but of course....PIPES.

This is...11 refineries?

per side?