math-and-meta

[shut coyote]

Pure iron - solid steel

Doesn't add that much more, especially when you've got a pre-existing, expandable pure iron setup

[wind spade]

1200 steel ingots:
normal steel: 27 foundries, 425 MW
solid steel: 20 foundries + 27 smelters, 426 MW
solid steel + pure: 20 foundries + 13 refineries, 686 MW

[thorny cedar]

you actually save energy with solid steel in this calculation... well close

[wind spade]

you don't, see above

it can be considered equal power cost, since the difference is really low, but it's not saving anything

[shut coyote]

The drawbacks are negligible (in the case of this recipe)

At least to me they are

[wind spade]

this ^

[thorny cedar]

OR you could supplement with oil

[shut coyote]

Benefits outweigh them in most cases that I can think of

[thorny cedar]

and make the best steel ingots in the world! ;D

[wind spade]

every person has preferences and what one person considers important, other person may consider pointless

so while the recipe is good for you (no issues with this), it doesn't mean it's "objectively better"

[snow dove]

there isn’t a single recipe that is better than another recipe based on every possible metric afaik

[thorny cedar]

looks into the oil tree

[shut coyote]

I gotta check the iron screw recipe

[wind spade]

(not to mention that you shouldn't compare two recipes in vacuum)

[shut coyote]

Cause that shit is so good from what I remember

[snow dove]

basically all the commonly stated to be good recipes in that tree add complexity

especially the recycled plastic/rubber loops

[thorny cedar]

tru tru

[shut coyote]

Given for me it's entirely impractical to use oil for my steel, it's safe to discard it

Also I simply don't have the other alt recipes

So that's a big factor lol

[wind spade]

again, for your case it's completely fine to have "best" recipe. But that still doesn't mean it's the same for everyone

[snow dove]

“for me” and “i simply” is a perfect demonstration on how recipe value is subjective

[thorny cedar]

thats why idk to answer if ppl ask 123 what should i "need"

idk what you "need"

:>

[shut coyote]

I mean I've never said anything about any recipe being the best in every situation, but for MY situation that recipe is objectively superior

Just not for every scenario

[wind spade]

well... subjectively 😄

[snow dove]

“based on my subjective standards it’s objectively superior” is kind of an oxymoron

[wind spade]

since it's "your situation"

[snow dove]

it’s subjectively better

[wind spade]

tho we're nitpicking a bit, I think we understand each other 🙂

[shut coyote]

I think we all have reading comprehension issues here

And that's fine I guess

[wind spade]

I'm just careful around the word "objective", as many people come here with "hey, person X said that recipe Y is objectively better so I trust them"

[thorny cedar]

and i mean if you ask bcs you dont know what you need .... you can pick rnd in the first place bcs you need none of the options right?

[shut coyote]

Now that's something different, and agree completely

[thorny cedar]

i dont mean you i mean in general 🙂

[shut coyote]

Actually one recipe

Cast screws
I'd actually be comfortable saying that's the best screw recipe

[thorny cedar]

i can say for myself i do most of it with solid steel and i do most of the iron with pure iron

[wind spade]

this runs into issue of comparing recipes in vacuum

[shut coyote]

As a baseline. If you wanted a serious amount then maybe steel would be better

[wind spade]

you can't just compare two recipes, unless they use same ingredients to make same product

[thorny cedar]

but thats more bcs i like refs a bit :3

[wind spade]

which there is none iirc

[thorny cedar]

and setting them up

[wind spade]

point is, cast screws skip a step, and that step has alt recipes on it's own

[thorny cedar]

and i do cat and copper in refs anyways so i do the bit of iron aswell no biggy

[shut coyote]

Give. Cast screws simply skips a production step with 0 drawbacks

[wind spade]

see

[shut coyote]

God I hate typing on mobile

[wind spade]

it's fine 🙂

by skipping a step, you lose on potential gains from steel rods

(which save tons of resources)

[shut coyote]

I really need to look over a the alternative recipes again

[frosty owl]

If the output belt is higher MK than the inputs (assuming 2 inputs), it's fine as the merger can buffer such occurances. If you're merging 3 belts or one input has the same MK of the output (or higher), then that might be a concern

[shut coyote]

Shits changed a fair bit since 2018 or whenever the game went ea

[wind spade]

for screws it's like this:

• lowest resource usage? steel rod + base screw
• lowest power/space usage? steel screw
• no steel? cast screw

every alt (and base recipe) has it's use based on your preferences

[thorny cedar]

i did steel rod into normal screw for rotors and rotors only sole use for screws in my world 🙂

[shut coyote]

But you would agree, presteel cast screw is the better of the two available options at the time

[thorny cedar]

yea i was thinking it might be risky if the output belt would fit exactly 600 but he should be fine

[wind spade]

I guess depends on situation

my personal opinion is that cast screws are waste of HDD since their timeframe of being useful to me (as I prefer resource efficient recipes) is very small

[shut coyote]

True enough, the period is pretty small

[frosty owl]

Your thought process is correct.
Eg: merging 100 and 20 on a MK2 can lead to the 100 side backing up some items

[wind spade]

T0-2 needs only small amount of screws and since I'll have stitched plates, the only place to "need" screws is the few rotors I need to make before I get to coal+steel

[shut coyote]

(I've never rolled stitched plates and it's so annoying lmfao)

[wind spade]

at the start the chance is pretty big

iirc there's like 6 recipes in the pool from start and stitched is one of them

so basically 50% on first drive

[shut coyote]

(rng loves me)

[wind spade]

and for that, hunting a recipe that doesn't save any resources and will get replaced once I get steel alts anyway (and most screws will be replaced with screwless recipes, except for copper rotor)

[shut coyote]

Since when I start a new save I don't typically run for hard drives right away

Aeghhbhgh phone typing

[frosty owl]

AGS FTW

[thorny cedar]

or just scim them

[frosty owl]

EGS is cooler and handier now

[wind spade]

I personally suggest getting alts asap, since the pool grows with new unlocks, so getting recipes you want is easier when the pool is small

[shut coyote]

Yeah I'm at the point where I'm boutta run around grabbing all the (reasonable to obtain) hard drives

[thorny cedar]

chance to get is always 1/3 right? 😄

or is it 50/50 either you win or you dont?

[shut coyote]

Technically you'd need 4 hard drives to guarantee its appearance

If I'm thinking right

It's just super unlikely that it'd take that much to roll it

But even when I get 3 hard drives I never get it

(since therere only so many cheap pods at the beginning)

Rng loves me.

[thorny cedar]

trust the hard drive feel the hard drive... beeee the hard drive

it just works

[shut coyote]

I swear when it comes to video game rng stuff's always rigged against me lmfao

[wind spade]

these are the 6 recipes that are there from start

[shut coyote]

I know it ain't but goddamn

[wind spade]

if you're getting different ones, then you've already unlocked something 🙂

[shut coyote]

Thats how that tends to work

[shut coyote]

I'd calculate the probability of that but it's after midnight I can't be fucked

[wind spade]

probability of first drive not containing stitched: 3/6
second: 2/5
third: 1/4
total: 5%

[wind spade]

@ivory hemlock see #math-and-meta message for alt recipe choices

[prisma kraken]

thanks

[burnt relic]

hey guys i wanna make modular frames but im in the early game and i can only mathematically make 5 per minute wich is fine but i cant seem to get the amounts of iron needed to be correct
the calculator is telling me i need 52.5 of smelted iron but idk how to split that honestly any help?

120 goes into 67.5 and 52.5

idk how im supposed to split that with basic splitters

[median heath]

Single splitter.

[median heath]

One splitter. That's it.

[burnt relic]

what do you mean 1 splitter?

[median heath]

Send 120 into 1 splitter.

It will split it into 67.5 and 52.5

[burnt relic]

are you talking about the technical splitter that you fcan program

[median heath]

No.

Because that isn't what smart splitters do either.

[burnt relic]

how does a thing thats supposed to split 120 equally split it into 52 and 67?

[median heath]

Because equally is 60/60, yes?

[burnt relic]

yeah?

[median heath]

What happens when you send 60 to something that can take only 52.5?

[burnt relic]

it over fills...
god im stupid

[median heath]

👍

Prefill the 52.5 side to skip the "waiting to fill" stage.

[burnt relic]

thanks man

[median heath]

Anytime.

[summer flare]

You want to use something like this. Outputs are a 4:5 ratio. No waiting, no "prefill, allows the buildings to have a 100% duty cycle and the process be 100% efficient right from the start. Oops this is for rotors

[neon nexus]

Hi, with this setup (fuel coming from the end of it splitting in 2 to do 1 line for each line of fuel gen), does it work like a manifold belt ? do i have to wait for the 1st ones to get filled before having everything running smoothely ?

[snow dove]

yes

not quite exactly like a belt manifold, but close enough

[summer flare]

67.5 and 52.5 is a 9:7 ratio. You'll find it's better to split the 52.5 4:3 to feed the constructors that make rods for screws or cast screws and the rods for the modular frames.

[neon nexus]

i definitely dont understand fluids logistics enough xD

[snow dove]

reading the pipeline guide is a good start

[neon nexus]

from the game ?

[snow dove]

in pins

[vapid gorge]

pinned in this channel yeah. Something to keep in mind though is pipe manifold looping? in that image are the pipes connected at the end? that would help

Also turn off a few generators so you flood the system. Full pipes are happy pipes

[neon nexus]

alright thx ^^
im planning on expanding my power production so i'll do it better this time

[vapid gorge]

There's a few ways to do piping and getting it to work. I have a set of simple rules that I've found leads to reliably working set ups. Happy to go over it if you like 🙂 It's not the only way to do pipes but it's straight forward and if it doesn't work then there's either a small build or math error.

[neon nexus]

i'd be glad to have more tips 😄

[vapid gorge]

ok so very brief Keep It Simple Stupid Pipe Design lesson

1. send fluid from point A to point B - if a set of machines need 458.5 fluid per minute? have a group of machines clocked to send that much down a pipe. Don't combine manifolds. Fewer points of failure and it becomes much easier to diagnose issues.
2. Loop pipe manifolds - any input manifold? loop the end of it back on itself. It helps deal with sloshing/backflow
3. Horizontal Manifolds - if you need to have machines on multiple floors? make individual and segregated manifolds. Don't stretch the manifold up or down, it can really create issues
4. Flood each fluid step- when you turn on a fluid step keep a few of the consumers at 50% until all the producers and consumer fluid buffers and pipes get full, then turn it to it's proper clocking. Full pipes also help stop stuttering.

Bits and pieces - don't use floor holes, they can be buggy, if you don't like the look of clipped pipes just clip them through the hole for the look
- don't feed from below unless you're really confident, can cause instability. There are ways to do it, but I don't recommend it at the start

example of a looped pipe manifold. Having the looping pipe Above or to the side of the manifold is best. It's possible to have it lower than the feed pipe but I wouldn't try that until you're more comfortable with piping

[prisma kraken]

i wouldn't use the loop except for extremely long manifolds

pipes like being full, and you're essentially doubling the volume of the pipe with the loop

[vapid gorge]

if it's more than like ... 2 machines I'd probably loop it. Some machines suck up a large amount of fluid in one go especially if over clocked. And using a loop even when NOT needed only increases the ammount of time it takes to pre fil by a very small amount so not actually a problem

[prisma kraken]

its kind of a moot argument, games aren't needed if you prefill the pipes... they can't slosh when they're full

you really don't need such things if you follow the 2 pieces of advice: 'full pipes are happy pipes' and 'keep pipe networks small'

[vapid gorge]

I've had a number of linear systems with flooded pipes where the machines have created gaps from sucking up too much fluid in one go

ok 'small' is relative. If you're using even half of mk2's throughput definitely loop

If I'm splitting a pipe into two or three and feeding machines? sure. But most don't do that

It's often very inconvenient

[mystic moon]

I don't think you need to loop 300 in a mk2

[prisma kraken]

i mean, i'm building a 1200m^3/min turbofuel plant now, what i'm doing is breaking the fuel generation into 3 logical units, and each of those units will push 100/min to 10 fuel generators with an mk1 pipe

[mystic moon]

Unless there is a lot of machines

[vapid gorge]

I think it'd depend how much each machine is pulling and how many?

But the big thing is loop + prefil essentially covers every eventuality

[prisma kraken]

that way i can direct belt from a blender into a 10 generator manifold

and i'm not going to be looping or anything, because the design is simple, straightforward and small

[vapid gorge]

shrug sure, but I give advice and build suggestions that will work for everyone in any situation.

and I've seen a lot of people like building designs that involve 20+ machines on a manifold

[prisma kraken]

yeah, that's generally a mistake to do, imho

[vapid gorge]

I also tell them that it isn't the only way to do it, jsut a reliable way

[vapid gorge]

if it works why is it a mistake?

often much more convenient

[prisma kraken]

big fuel manifolds just are problematic, always have been

[vapid gorge]

I mean these are just refinery set ups, all extremely over clocked so the equivalent to 2.3x the number of machines. It works fine

[prisma kraken]

right, but you know what you're doing 🙂

it would work even without the looping

[vapid gorge]

Right - and I give all purpose build advice. Design and layout steps that will work no mater how big or small the set up is. I also let people know that you can do things differently and get it to work.

[vapid gorge]

ah no, these def would not work w/o looping xD

especially with the bottom feeding

[prisma kraken]

well if you're pushing more than the pipe capacity, probably not

[vapid gorge]

no just running at 600

the loop is underneath

but yeah - All purpose advice is generally better imo, gives more design and layout options for people and having a loop won't ever hurt and barely costs any space.

[prisma kraken]

i'd be surprised if it doesn't work w/o the loop, but have no experience with bottom feeding like that

[vapid gorge]

Anything that sucks up a lot of fluid on a single lane pipe is asking for trouble. If each manifold was only like 3 machines so one junctions? maybe I'd do it. But I didn't want to risk it.

not worth the redesign risk

[prisma kraken]

understood

[vapid gorge]

I'd rather just have the design that's full proof from the start than having to screw around with it

[prisma kraken]

i just don't bottom feed like that

[vapid gorge]

oh yeah I also tell people not to bottom feed unless they get comfy with pipes xD

But I've found this design is reliable if you've mathed and built the rest right

only times I've had issues with systems including it the problems were not in the manifold

[median heath]

The need to fix the fucking clearance so I can run my piping on the TOP of coal gens again like I used to 😭

[vapid gorge]

xD if only there was a mod that'd fix that xD

[prisma kraken]

there are times that i do need to run the pipes under the machines, but with it, i'm essentially top-feeding them, by bottom-feeding into a manifold above the machines, bad photo, but you can see an example here:

[median heath]

If there was, I wouldn't use it.

[vapid gorge]

there's a few and I know 😉

[prisma kraken]

i should really just put him on block, lol

[median heath]

Burn them all 😉

[south walrus]

I'm working on a nuclear power plant, and I want to keep the radiation away from a specific side of the plant. I can either put the factory that makes the nuclear fuel on that side or I can put the reactors. Does anyone know which area would emit less radiation, the factory area or reactor area? I would think that the factory area would emit more radiation because there are more machines which means more areas for uranium to sit, but I'm thinking that the nuclear waste made by the reactors might make even more radiation, so I don't know which to choose.

[median heath]

I want to say the factory area will have slightly more unless you're manifolding the nukes.

But general rule is you don't "keep the radiation away", you just accept it will all be irradiated.

[south walrus]

Oh yeah I know there will be radiation but I would like to minimize the amount on the side that is closer to land. Also I will be manifolding the reactors so does that change things?

[vapid gorge]

it means you'll have a ton of radiation near the reactors

[median heath]

It makes the nuke side much higher in radiation

[vapid gorge]

I think if you load balance the whole thing you can have very low radiation? but it's a lot of work

[south walrus]

Ah I think I see. Aren't the fuel rods really really radioactive?

[vapid gorge]

well if it's a manifold it'll pile up and be quite radioactive yeah

if you load balance it there'll be very few rods as there isn't any pile up

[south walrus]

Okey dokey I forgor to consider that but it makes sense. I'll put the reactors on the far side.

[vapid gorge]

Well the machines makign the rods will also be pretty radioactive if manifolded :\

but it's often easier to set up nuclear gens over water to directly feed the liquid into them

[south walrus]

Yeah but the intermediate items are not as radioactive

[vapid gorge]

yeah totally up to you on what 'good enough' in this is 🙂

I jsut assume my nuclear set up is a 'must wear suit' area

[south walrus]

I'm setting them up in the void area in the grass feilds where they will be below a massive water source, which shoudl help a ton with the water logistics

[south walrus]

lol mine is a "must use god mode" area

I even have a sign to tell you XD

[prisma kraken]

how is it that the throughput calculations in the game for vehicle stations are so wildly wrong

i'm paying attention atm to the numbers a drone port reports, and it has displayed the round trip time, and a 'maximum stacks/min' ... pretty sure it times the RTT correctly, but the max stacks/min is just wrong. The value for it should be 9 stacks/rtt

and somehow it reports for my specific case an rtt of 3:29, or 209 seconds, which should resolve to a max transfer rate of 60*9/209 = ~259/min, yet it reports max of 3.19 stacks/min as max

its just puzzling because the correct numbers are easily found displayed on the interface, yet they're displaying 9 divided by something else

[thorny cedar]

can you make me a screenshot bcs i experienced some drone inconsistencies that only got resolved after a reload of the thing... map

for example drone ports physical right next to each other report different throuput numbers... like a stack differency not just single items

i made a screenshot somewhere i while back ago in here bcs i was loosing my mind over this

and i usual let the game run for several weeks without closing it sometimes :>

[prisma kraken]

i just quit the game, i'm not opening it back up

really there's not much to show the numbers were what the ui displayed, and i can tell you that it was calculating the items/min correctly, just mathing the theoretical max incorrectly

[thorny cedar]

#screenshots message

but thats prob not rly what u experience idk

[prisma kraken]

yeah, i was just commenting that the ports always calculate the max transfer rate in stacks/min wrongly

that number is always 9/rtt, and god knows how the ui is calculating it

i was just paying attention to it all to figure out if i needed 2 or 3 drones to move a sulfer node, and a single drone was really moving 258/min

tl;dr, CSS should really spend some time to fix the numbers in the drone & truck station UI's

in U8, there's something very wrong with the truck station UI that causes a lot of crashes

[wind spade]

@ornate rover what's your problem with the automated miner? it allows you to automate it

[shut coyote]

yeah you can't automate miners with the default recipe

so the alt lets you automate production of them

[thorny cedar]

i already told him that bcs i found it unfair to the poor portable miner

[delicate chasm]

It's a motor and 4 steel pipe on top of the other costs - not a replacement input cost but the SAME input cost PLUS MORE parts.

It's 55MW per manufacturer running and to make just 1 portable miner takes a full minute. So you're dedicating nearly a full consistent megawatt to the automation of something that you will ultimately need less than a thousand of even if you are LGIO. There are 364 non-SAM nodes. 364 * 3 = 1092 and one of the most oft-said things regarding map limits is that your computer will die long before you achieve that.

What's wrong with the recipe? You're joking. Or if not joking, leaning as hard as possible into the "only possible way is optimal way" which I agree with, but does NOT protect it from the answer to the question of "why is this alt not worth using?"

Because it's NOT the only way to accomplish the goal of creating portable miners. It's the only way to accomplish it without involving hand crafting. If your playthrough isn't a "no hand crafting after HUB 0" run, it's a waste of time to set it up, a waste of resources to use, and a waste of energy to maintain. It's waste on top of waste at every point. It saves you nothing.

You can hand craft portable miners so fast, you can get done with every single miner you will EVER need in just a few minutes, if you are intent on storing them for later. It's a recipe with no genuine use case. It's like automating space elevator parts but even more pointless because you'll run out of use for them sooner and it's a net loss on coupons to boot when you sink them.

Again, 1,092 is the highest number you're going to be shooting for even if you're just trying to prove this wrong. If that were both a much higher number AND was a realistic goal in this game, MAYBE this recipe would see unironic use. I still think not though.
@greeny.dev @shut coyote

[delicate chasm]

Mentions disabled but I was mainly answering you, so reply.

[versed violet]

Tips for exploring out of bounds:

• There is a mod for custom damage. You can set dmg to 1%. You still get the full annoyance of the alert and visuals, but less inhaler usage.
• You don't take dmg inside vehicle. Just dont drive off the beach into water.
• You can power through with enough inhalers.

[delicate chasm]

I just wanna add 1 other thing: If the automatable alt did not require iron rod OR did not require iron plate, I would immediately shut up forever about this. It is because it has identical costs PLUS costs that it has no mathematical redemption and 0 use cases.

[versed violet]

the obvious case is "we are artifically inflating the price so it doesnt give crazy sink points while staying craftable at low level"

[delicate chasm]

It takes sixty seconds to produce 1 using a machine. I can certainly appreciate that it would be crazy to have 100 assemblers doing the hand craft version of the recipe, but can't we just relegate the portable miner, like several other parts, to a role of being much less valuable than the sum of its parts when sunk?

[versed violet]

we could. But they probably didn't want to touch existing recipe and sink points, so they just added the recipe to make it complicated. Or just needed the challenge of using manufacturer.

[delicate chasm]

I think the last bit is more likely, but it was an implementation that was borne on the back of enthusiasm, not progression design.

If they thought about it much I think they'd have realized that it wasn't a recipe that would see much use because the use case for the part is limited by the map.

[versed violet]

Not all recipes make physical sense in game, like motors requiring 2 rotors and 2 stators for example.

[versed violet]

drones, and used for limiting container free space

[delicate chasm]

?

Oh, okay, that hit my brain weird. I understand now.

Well let me ask you this though - do you seriously use this alt recipe, or do you just make your drones' PMs by hand?

[limber palm]

I've never even considered using that recipe, is so easy to just hand craft them when needed. I've personally never limited container space, interesting idea tho.

[versed violet]

I use the miners to fill all but 2 slots in storage container for personal crafting mats. Then it can only accept 2 slots of say turbomotors. The container has a short dead end belt, and if you put turbos last, they will output for grabbing. Or you can pick up whole stack.
This helps not having around 1k turbos that could be points instead.

The recipe has niche uses. more useful than charcoal for me tbh

[delicate chasm]

This is very similar to the programmable splitter discussion. There are a few specific things you can do with them that you can't do without them, but if you're considering just an end goal, programmable splitters are never necessary to achieve anything EXCEPT the specific layouts that they enable. Smart splitters will get you there with a slightly larger footprint.

[versed violet]

you can build without any splitters at all, they just make life easier

and 50 filters limit should be increased

[delicate chasm]

The automated miner recipe is a thing that exists. It can be used and you can come up with use cases, but you're forcing it when you do. You can't automate beyond the step of portable miner itself...so either PM goes in the storage or sink, and you either shut down the facility when full or start losing points sinking them.

Or move them around by hand to where they need to be, which...bruh, equipment workshop next to the container you need them in. Tink tink tink tink tink. Done. No auto-miner needed.

[versed violet]

Who says about facility? I slap it into my configurable crafting hall and come back later to pick the dozen I need.

short run editions, when I need them, so I dont have to stand over the desk.

[ok, it was pretty useful when blocking off 5 containers]

[delicate chasm]

It's absolutely okay to use the recipe and even enjoy it btw. Even in my extremely negative opinion. =p
But the discord has a cultural "all alts are good" addage and it's an old wives' tale I'm intent on disproving. General sweeping statements are anathema to logic whether they be accusations or defenses.

"best is relative"? No, good is relative.

If the "all alts are good" is a subjective statement, fine.
When it's used as a refutation of an observation that one recipe is wasteful or unproductive compared to an alternative, no; that's an attempt to enforce the concept of all alts being good as an objective point of data. Which it is most certainly not.

[mystic moon]

The argument is that there is a valid use case for every recipie

[magic island]

even recipes that are numerically bad to use en masse tend to have use-cases where they are convenient on a small scale

[delicate chasm]

I find that phrasing much, much easier to get down with.

I'd then gently argue that the automated miner's use case isn't really valid outside of personal affectation.

But if someone ever told me that it was just their opinion they were expressing, then at that point I'd absolutely 100% back off.

[mystic moon]

I've never used the miner recipie, but the option is there if you wanted to automate them for some godforsaken reason

[delicate chasm]

Yeah and more power to you if so.
Seriously. 55MW per manufacturer to you! 😁

[thorny cedar]

what are you talking about is it still about the miner? i have the other guy blocked bcs he just wants to argue about useless arguments

[delicate chasm]

I feel this way about the turbofuel recipes. All of them actually.

[mystic moon]

Diluted fuel ftw!

[amber jacinth]

Rahhhhh charcoal!!!

[delicate chasm]

Yeah. Turbofuel is useful, especially in u8exp, so I do have a very small facility set up using a chain I'm not comfortable discussing in public.

_>

None for energy though.

[versed violet]

oh, I make couple liters of turbofuel for the new ammo they added. never tried burning it tho, is that safe for the engines?

[magic island]

my example: I would never use Default Fuel or Residual Plastic at scale

but for a tiny little personal packaged fuel factory, the numbers work out cleanly to pack up half the fuel and burn the other half with minimal steps/buildings

[delicate chasm]

Yeah, it burns more slowly per unit compared to regular fuel, similar to solid biofuel compared to biomass.

It's not SUPER terrible to set up or anything, but turbofuel generator arrays are big, which means the pipes really need to be clean.

What would work in a residual fuel generator array might have flow problems because of the distance or height required to lay out generators that burn more slowly.

Overclocking the gens helps a lot but that's a lot of shards, and historically the shards have kept people from wanting to do this method.

Lay out hundreds of buildings or lay out some hundred and shard them? It's huge either way.

[wind spade]

my mentions aren't disabled 🤔

Again, 1,092 is the highest number you're going to be shooting for
and drones

It's like automating space elevator parts
which is also fine 🤷‍♂️ not to mention they give great sink points

and the main use is to not handcraft them, which has a value on it's own

It saves you nothing.
except for the need to hancraft them

But the discord has a cultural "all alts are good"
no

it's "all alts are subjective"

I never said anything about all alts being good. But in the same way I never said (and never will) that any of the recipes is bad.

Each recipe has it's usecase and good-ness or bad-ness of a recipe depends purely on the player

[delicate chasm]

and drones
I will definitely concede that I did not remember to factor in drones so the number of 1,092 is theoretically lower than it could be, but let's not forget that that number is had by putting a mark 3 miner on every non-SAM node in the game.

not to mention they give great sink points
I called this out specifically - the portable miners don't have this boon that SEPs do. If you automate SEPs into a sink, you're fulfilling a design purpose of the SEPs: they are intended to be high value sink items. Even if that wasn't the intent of the devs, they ARE a high value sink item so the use case exists.
That said nothing stops you from being underwhelming and inefficient. You can just sink iron ore and call it a use case for the Miner Mark 2 because that's what you used to do it. 🤷‍♂️ It IS a use case, but is this distinction useful? If you want to be extremely pedantic, it is very useful because it is an ironclad defense against any assertion to the contrary and pre-empts any kind of attempt at comparison.

So it comes down to it is the method by which you the Pioneer can create the part without hand crafting as the sole justification.

Automating it fully isn't useful -> Lose sink points.
Automating it partially creates unstable consumption (ergo diverting resources from other fully automated lines and starving machines periodically, OR having an idle miner overproducing ore).
It's also an investment of time, space, and energy to create it.

The ability to not have to use your hands to craft it is good, sure, because it's a factory game.
The recipe itself is bad, though.

It doesn't tick any other boxes like the other alts do. It doesn't enable any additional abilities, like biocoal or charcoal letting you make gunpowder from nothing but sulfur.

"All alts are subjective" - I don't think this fits the culture at all, sorry. MAYBE instead of 'all alts are good', 'no alts are bad' would have been more spot-on.

The idea of someone condemning an alt at all is met with resistance. The adage of 'no alts are bad' is certainly upheld even if no one is asserting the opposite statement, which I will retract.

You can overflow the manufacturer's inputs to the SINK instead of the manufacturer's output. That makes it significantly less wasteful since you'll be sinking motors.

[wind spade]

I see "I can automate X" as a value
by that definition, automated miner is valuable to me

[delicate chasm]

Would it be valuable to you if the recipe was 500 copper powder, 20 uranium cells, 300m3 of nitric acid and 500m3 of HOR in a Blender?

[wind spade]

it isn't tho

[delicate chasm]

You are correct. It isn't. Would you still be saying that the recipe is valuable to you personally if that was what it required?

I'm asking for your opinion.

The cycle time is 30 seconds so that 500m3 of HOR is actually possible.

[wind spade]

I'd have to play around the math with it first 🤷‍♂️ I can't really say if a recipe would be valuable to me just by looking at it

[delicate chasm]

So at no point is the input so high that you feel it invalidates the potential value in this case? When specifically the usage case is "not need to hand craft."

If the math works, if it CAN be done, then it's potentially useful?

(Again, I'm just trying to get a really specific understanding of your opinion on the broad topic by giving you this utterly ridiculous example of a recipe)

[wind spade]

I mean the current recipe is literally just "take a few items from storage to one manufacturer"

[delicate chasm]

You mean from a fully automated steel pipe, motor, iron plate, and iron rod factory truncating in a storage.

Which you hopefully then also have belted directly to the manufacturer, not hand-carried?

It's not automated otherwise.

[wind spade]

all those three are needed in storage iirc

so yeah

[delicate chasm]

Yeah... So it's not just take a few items from storage to one manufacturer. It's create automation for at least 1 manufacturer using several distinct chains including steel.

[wind spade]

no, it's taking them from storage

[delicate chasm]

If you're just pulling from storage that is automatically filled from input factories in any way, it's a full line of automation.

It's just inefficient if you're not consuming all of the input, or excessively wasteful if you are. It will not just be an always on production cycle which is also not just plain destroying part value for no reason.

[wind spade]

all my production lines lead to storage

[delicate chasm]

Same but if the storage containers then have outputs they are not storage; they are buffers that I'm using for storage.

[wind spade]

they don't have outputs

[delicate chasm]

Ideally the storage itself is the end point of a line.

[wind spade]

it is end of a line

[delicate chasm]

So if you are moving from what you are referring to as storage (not outputting automatically), you aren't automating miners.

[wind spade]

storage = the building/area where my containers are

I split from the parts that arrive to storage

[delicate chasm]

So it's not pulling from storage; it's pulling from the input line to storage.

It's pulling from the output of the factory the parts came from.

If it goes through a container, that container is a buffer, not storage.

[wind spade]

given that "storage" is "the whole building" (as I already said), then yes, it's from storage

[delicate chasm]

If it arrives in a container with no output, it's stored and using these items is hand carrying, i.e. not automated.

[wind spade]

storage != storage container

but this is nitpicking anyway

[delicate chasm]

My point is you are either automating it or not. You are not existing in a Schrodinger like state where the recipe is both useful for automation but also is not being used for automation but is good because you find it useful.

Yeah it's really nitpicky, sorry.

[wind spade]

and I am automating?

[delicate chasm]

I don't mean to be pedantic either.

[wind spade]

like at which point did I say I don't automate?

[delicate chasm]

I'm not saying you did. What you did say is that it's just a few items from storage to a single manufacturer.

It's not like you're just pulling some items out of storage (you're diverting from storage before it gets there).

So I was saying that no, you ARE automating.

[wind spade]

again, what I call storage is not just the container, but the whole building (including train stations and such)

same as "factory" isn't just the machines, but also belts, walls, foundations, etc.

[delicate chasm]

The specific thing is that your wording implies it's just a few items taken from the end point.

Still, the recipe existing and having the output that it does is not an issue whatsoever. Its utility is undeniable because the game is about automation.

I said that earlier.

The cost for what you get is the part that is definitely bad, because it is a loss on all fronts. It's not a tradeoff of any other thing - it's JUST more expensive.

[wind spade]

until I'm using all nodes to their fullest potential, I'm already "wasting" tons of potential production, so it's not like this makes any difference to my reasoning

[delicate chasm]

Until your final build is complete, your save is only partially functional.

Okay now let's get back to the just 1 machine in that great big world eating a whole impure iron node when it could just be a rotor and a couple of plates.

[wind spade]

it's not eating almost anything as it's eating things that would go to sink anyway

[delicate chasm]

It's eating your sink points.

[wind spade]

of which I have more than I'd ever need

given their limited use

[delicate chasm]

Good for specifically you and no other player then.

[wind spade]

Sev has same point iirc

[thorny cedar]

for me aswell

[wind spade]

and yeah, as with all alts, this is a subjective alt and I'm not saying "it's good, use it", but "for me it's not bad"

[delicate chasm]

So then back to the recipe I made up earlier. It's The Method for getting the part without hand crafting. That being the only way to achieve it, would you still say that the statement "that recipe is bad" is worth arguing against?

[wind spade]

as you mentioned, there may be people that do "least handcrafting" challenges

[delicate chasm]

At some point, subjective though an observation may be, it has enough grounding in basic values of effort vs. return to get a lot of other people to agree that yeah, it's at least not good enough to say it is bad.

Then you have a specific usage case.

[wind spade]

and I'm not claiming "all recipes that you can make up are not bad", but "all recipes in satisfactory are not bad"

[delicate chasm]

Then you must surely have a point of reasoning for why that distinction exists?

[wind spade]

yeah, there are no crazy recipes like the one you invented

[delicate chasm]

This specific recipe is not bad - and it's not because it's the only way to automate miners, correct?

This recipe is a crazy one like the one I invented.

[wind spade]

it's not

[delicate chasm]

I'll gladly hear your reason for why mine is crazy and this one isn't?

How did you make that distinction?

[wind spade]

tbh I'm in no mood to nitpick every detail you can think of and explain why a sandbox game has subjective things

[delicate chasm]

scrolls up for several pages, then back down.

Okay.

I'll drop it.

[wind spade]

you have your opinions, I have mine, none of us will change their opinion, no reason to discuss

well it first seemed like you just want to know my reasoning, so I've answered

[delicate chasm]

no reason to discuss

YO NO. Absolutely disagree 100% with this. Never is that valid.

You will not catch me making truly absolutist statements often but this is one of those times.

Discussion is vital. I want to understand how you make the distinctions you make to form the opinions that you have.

[wind spade]

but now it's turning to "define how you value recipes by objective function that can be applied to any recipe so that I can see where you draw the line" in a world of subjective recipes 🤷‍♂️

sorry, I have no reason to discuss

[delicate chasm]

If you aren't in the mood for that or your mood has turned sour because of my presentation, I understand and will drop it.

But that's not what I'm intending to give you, so you know.

[thorny cedar]

just let it be

he will stop if you stop

[wind spade]

well it first seemed like you just want to know my reasoning, so I've answered, but now it's turning to "define how you value recipes by objective function that can be applied to any recipe so that I can see where you draw the line" in a world of subjective recipes
this is why I don't want to discuss anymore

[deft lichen]

Epic vs steam turned into alt recipe comparisons are objective vs subjective...?

[thorny cedar]

idk smn droped the miner alt rec a while ago into screenshots its evolved over time

but i only read half of everything so idk for sure 😄

[delicate chasm]

You misunderstood the at first part, then, sorry.

I covered your reasoning in my initial rant. I wasn't necessarily aware that it was the totality of your reasoning, but that the usage case is "the only way to automate this part" was said right away.

The sum total of what I set out to express is that the recipe in-game is too expensive. You are punished at every point of the production in every way for something that has a stack size of 1, is most often used in groups of no greater than 12 (but sure, you might dot the entire dune desert with mark 3s in one trip, I get it), and which reduces your overall factory's stability or sink value.

The utility of not having to hand craft something is good.
The recipe's costs are not good.

I expect it'll be a rotor and some plates after the rebalance.

[wind spade]

I value the autiomation more than the extra resources needed for it

that's it

nothing else

[delicate chasm]

Yeah I know.

I've been trying to tell you that in various ways for a while now my guy, but I'm sorry that you're frustrated with me.

[wind spade]

tell me what I already know?

[delicate chasm]

No. Tell you that I know that's the only value it has to you. You made it clear early on and I understood it then.

A lot of the wall of text above is me expressing in different ways that sure, that holds up, because it's bad compared to itself using any metric or reasoning besides "ability to not hand craft itself."

[sand hare]

Are there any examples of using all the resources on the map to make the maximum number of the 4 last rocket parts?

[delicate chasm]

Yes, on the Wiki page for the AWESOME Sink.

It's an older calculation but includes a note about what was added after the calculation was done.

It's not an even number of all 4 though, if that's what you want. For that just use greeny's tool and set those 4 to maximize.

But I am not aware of anyone having actually built those.

[sand hare]

Thanks! I've been looking online, and all I find are people scoffing that it's iMpoSiBle to max out resources. I'm just starting on my max build and I'm using 25% of bauxite and 40% of quarts, so I have to recalculate the best recipes, ie not using quarts for aluminum

[mystic moon]

The impossibility comes from the fact that you'll likely have pretty poor performance by that point

[delicate chasm]

Definitely check out satisfactorytools.com then and have a look at various chains you're considering. Also try enabling all alts and putting in 'maximum' for the things you want just for fun. 😁

(Keep in mind you'll need to actually add any other existing factories you want to keep, if you want to build what it tells you as a result)

Or lower the resource amounts it's using by the amounts you're already consuming.

[sand hare]

Yeah, 2 years ago I built so much that it started stuttering, I've been checking back regularly, Update 8 made it playable again, so the natural thing is to push the limits again!

I'm also going to try and avoid trains, that seems to be often cited as a drain

"The maximum amount of points that can be generated while using all available resources and energy without underclocking any buildings was about 184,168,000 points per minute by sinking 296.46/min Assembly Director System and 31.6064 Thermal Propulsion Rocket. This requires a 46% Uranium-Plutonium setup involving 23.2/min Uranium Fuel Rod and 10.3/min Plutonium Fuel Rod at 547 GW. This will max out the usage of every raw resources except Uranium (2% left), Limestone (20% left) and Nitrogen Gas (45% left)"

wow, I would never have guesses that nitrogen was not a limiting factor.

[mystic moon]

They're going to be better than belts for many cases

Anytime you're doing long-distance transport belts will be much more of a performance hog than pretty much anything else

[median heath]

You're talking about maxing out and you drew the conclusion that not using Qtz with Aluminium was the "best" option?

[delicate chasm]

What DOES most of the quartz go to? Oscillator alts or silica?

[wind spade]

depends on recipes 🤷‍♂️

[sand hare]

There is about the same amount of bauxite as there is quarts. bauxite is used for aluminum almost exclusively, but quartz is used for some other key components. so if the silica recipe is used for aluminum, it will halt many other things unnecessarily

[median heath]

Then you're not maxing Aluminium 🤷‍♂️

[sand hare]

it's impossible to maximize every individual component obviously. there has to be a lot of compromise to achieve the end goal in the best way

[delicate chasm]

I believe the context for this discussion was maximizing the phase 4 project parts specifically using the entire map.

Still not quite clear on whether you were thinking in terms of equalizing all of them or maximizing usage of raw resources like the sink calculation was though?

[sand hare]

that's what I'm trying to figure out. once good estimates of the cost of each main part are known (using the best recipes) then the math can be done about how much of each one is logical

for example, I think nuclear pasta might eat up all the nitrogen at an uneven rate

[delicate chasm]

Uhhh

The meta isn't going to be solved this way.

But this line of reasoning will likely give you some interesting goals and ideas so I won't stand in the way.

I will equip you with this statement though:
Best is context-sensitive.

[sand hare]

it's also a bit of trying to guess what will be released with 1.0, to get a head start. a fun little game that we only have a chance to play once

[delicate chasm]

Now THAT is true!

[sand hare]

In Shapez IO they set goals by parts per minute, I wouldn't be surprised if they introduce something like that for the end game here

Can't idle your way out of that problem

[delicate chasm]

I spend 40 hours stockpiling ISCs of the items in question.

I belt them to the thing that checks PPM.

🤘

[sand hare]

It checks production rate, not sink rate 😛 plus it can back track and make sure each of the sub components is also being produced in sufficient numbers

[delicate chasm]

(I know what you mean, and assuming if they implemented something like that it would check machines, not containers)

[sand hare]

Hmm, for aluminum it might actually be better to use silica since silica/Quartz Crystal can be avoided in many recipes. But it's easy enough to change between the two so it's not the most pressing question for efficiencies

[prisma kraken]

with aluminum, you'll always end up needing more silica than you'll produce, and if you'll give up some yield because sloppy does better than default

imho, default alumina solution is only really useful in making silica for nuclear

[magic island]

you can max out scrap as a first step without having to consider quartz

then just decide how much/little silica you want to combine with that scrap

[prisma kraken]

which is kind of the way you should approach it if you're concerned about map resource limits

[shut coyote]

@wind spade neat site you've got honestly. significantly better on the planning front than satisfactory-calculator.com

(though I'll still use that site for the interactive map)

[wind spade]

yeah well my map is bad

[shut coyote]

(there's a map on your site?)

[wind spade]

no, that's why it's bad 😄

[shut coyote]

that tracks

but it's also good. no flaws

can't have flaws on something that doesn't exist, after all

[wind spade]

except the flat what it doesn't exist xD

[shut coyote]

angling towards something like this, though with maybe using standard iron cause of the chunky power draw

[boreal summit]

Can't go wrong if you never try ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[shut coyote]

10 mod frames/min should be decent enough for pre-train I'd say

[boreal summit]

And yeah I've been using your calc a lot with this new setup I'm working on, it's been great

[shut coyote]

should let me get train networks up and running super quick

[vapid gorge]

iron alloy is also an option if there's some copper around

[shut coyote]

true, though I'd rather use that elsewhere. once I've collated it all into a single bus I'll know just how much I'm working with and decide then

if I've got surplus copper (which I may well have)

[shut coyote]

ohhhhh ffs I still don't have that one

goddamnit. I grabbed like 20 hard drives

picked the entire north clean and still got at least 5 alt recipes missing (for current teir)

well at least there's an easy string of 4 with cheap reqs

[vapid gorge]

you might also be able to save on iron with Steel screw or Steel Rods + Screw recipes

[shut coyote]

aye was using steel screw alt in the calc but it didnt show in end result

but that's my idea, to use steel screws to save on mats

[vapid gorge]

force the calculator to use it by un selecting other recipes

[vapid gorge]

I believe Steel Iron Rod -> Screw is more efficient mind you

in terms of resources

[shut coyote]

gonna have to run the calcs to see if the margins on the power is enough to warrant it

[shut coyote]

even with only steel screw alt selected it isn't running it through the calc

[vapid gorge]

if you're playing with power in mind then your next step is to make more power.

[shut coyote]

which is fine I can just do it manually

[vapid gorge]

un select teh regular screw recipe

[shut coyote]

oh I see what you mean

[vapid gorge]

and every other screw recipe

[shut coyote]

there we go

[vapid gorge]

To have more control over resource use I find that when you select a recipe you unselect the other option to force the calc to do what you want

[shut coyote]

gotcha - still getting used to actually using a tool

rather than running the numbers myself

much quicker this way lol

[vapid gorge]

yeah takes a bit of effort to really get the hang of it, but it's worth it

[shut coyote]

ooohhhhhhhhh okay

clone tab

that is so useful for comparing

[vapid gorge]

you can also save builds by clicking the share button and saving the link to a file on your comp

[shut coyote]

okay yeah def worth getting used to this

after I continue running around for more goddamn hard drives

ARGHHGHGHGHGHG

[prisma kraken]

yeah, that's about what i did to get there (technically 8.4375) and i wasn't hurting for hmf's

[shut coyote]

computers are gonna be a right pain in the arse though

logistically

[vapid gorge]

you can use alt recipes to shrink the needs down quite a lot

[shut coyote]

ooooh you can have the calc make multiple end products at once

[vapid gorge]

and input parts that are being made elsewhere isntead of including them in the raw part plan

[wind spade]

or use the new shiny export function to save it as actual file 🙂

[shut coyote]

ah I see, so you can tell it if you're making X concrete a minute, or whatever

that's handy

[vapid gorge]

naahhh

[vapid gorge]

and with the right Alt recipes you can make computers just with caterium and oil

[shut coyote]

ohshit fr? hmm

[wind spade]

I mean you can save all your production lines in one file 😛

[vapid gorge]

the combo of alts can really make a dif

[vapid gorge]

yeah, that's my spread sheet 😛

[shut coyote]

this reminds me of modding skyrim using Vortex mod manager.

not fond memories

webs. webs everywhere

[vapid gorge]

at the moment I'm using Caterium Computer and Silica Circuitboards as a production line

[shut coyote]

though in this case webs are totally fine

[shut coyote]

(if you know you know)

[vapid gorge]

For example https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=v59WHbVdk5s9x3R5ufjG

[shut coyote]

huh and I can just ditch the supercomputers for this to be applicable to me. nice

(though tone the numbers down a bit cause I sure as shit don't need 120/min computers at this stage)

[vapid gorge]

if you like. It still requires more resource TYPES so if you don't want logistics it's harder to find a spot with all of it there

[shut coyote]

eh no big deal, since where I'm at in the desert has plenty of caterium and copper

[vapid gorge]

the resource type reduction combo https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=MpzfNbLFEno2qz1RsfFb

[shut coyote]

and the bay area thing at the north (whatever it's called) naturally has a large amount of water

ah so it uses the recycled rubber/recycled plastic loop to maximize oil efficiency

[vapid gorge]

you don't have to use it, just needs more oil in that case

[shut coyote]

aye, but moar efficiency = moar good

[vapid gorge]

and it's not so hard if you've gotten the hang of piping

[shut coyote]

honestly this looks good

I'll set up the infrastructure for trains (and belts) and belt over the caterium to the oil area, easiest way I reckon

since fluid transport over distance is a bit more annoying than solids

(plus it'd just be moving one solid as opposed to two liquids)

[vapid gorge]

I find that combo better for smaller volumes of production. The first I linked is good for larger ones as you have more choice of local nodes to extend the product

[shut coyote]

and itd give me an excuse to try out some new bridge type designs

[shut coyote]

yeah hence why I lowered the yield significantly, down to 30/min

which should be plenty

also is it just me or is the shotgun super good

can't believe I've slept on ranged weapons for so long

[vapid gorge]

shatter shot? yeah murders everything

[shut coyote]

shatter rebar

cheap as hell too

definitely gonna set up a production line for those so I can stop handcrafting them

[vapid gorge]

the new ammo recipes do making fighting kinda trivial

[shut coyote]

(was handcrafting just to see if they were good and goddamn)

I'm playing the game like a movement shooter now

[vapid gorge]

just hand craft a few hundred. kills thing fast

[shut coyote]

true but are they more fun than shotgunning shit

[vapid gorge]

and if you put up a powered building spawns stop in the area

[shut coyote]

(why would you want that?)

[vapid gorge]

scatter rebar is a new alt

[shut coyote]

(more murder.)

[vapid gorge]

used to be just the regular rebar and reg ammo for rifle

[shut coyote]

yeah ik, been playing since day1

so I've been aware of the ranged options

but the rebar gun used to be kinda shite so I've always stayed away

really should have checked them out after that update that added new ammo types

took the rebar gun from being "meh" to "DOOM music intensifies"

[vapid gorge]

regular rebar might have been better than the rifle tbh, very high dmg single shot. if you had decent aim you could clear things well

[shut coyote]

actually when was the rifle added?

cause I swear it used to be that the only ranged option was the rebar gun

that's the problem with games that are in development lol - can never remember when shit was added or changed

[boreal summit]

I mean, there is a changelog... somewhere?

[fierce cypress]

it'd be on the wiki

[shut coyote]

damn apr3 2019?

so ages ago. huh.

[sand hare]

speaking of fixes, are the belts running at full 780 and pipes at 600 now?

[vapid gorge]

you could always run mk2 pipes at 600 and the issue with all belts, not just mk5s, has been largely resolved

[sand hare]

https://satisfactory.fandom.com/wiki/Pipeline#Current_issues
Mk.2 Pipelines have issues transporting fluid at its max capacity, 600 m3/min. Any type of dead-end junction (be that actual dead ends or a side-line becoming full) will cause fluid to flow back, which interrupts the pipe, causing it to drop below 600 m3/min. Usage of loops is recommended.

also two years ago "Mk.2 Pipelines have issues transporting fluid at its max capacity, 600 m3/min. Despite its reading shows 600, there is s 1~3 % loss in fluid flow, so it is advised not to use its full capacity."

[wind spade]

you can get 600 if you build properly

I don't think the second issue is true

[vapid gorge]

outdated wiki and that' isn't a throughput issue

there used to be an issue where on loading the world each fluid buffer would lose some of the content.

But with mk2 pipes you could always build a loop and flood the system and get 600.

[wind spade]

use wiki.gg

[sand hare]

Hard to tell fact from outdated fact to straight up superstition with so many years of updates

[vapid gorge]

there is supposedly an issue with mk2 pipes and junctions and flow that exists - however the solution to working around backflow and stuttering also circumvents whatever this junction bug is.

[delicate chasm]

Oh, community doesn't know what the bug is?
Every side of a junction can output/input any amount but each pipe segment connected can move total 600m3, both in and out.

If it's moving 480 in and 120 out at the same time through the same side on a given tick, that's 600m3.

Getting the flow to be continuous and in one direction is easy when just a few machines are mid-stream but a long manifold gets pulled from too often for the far end to have no backflow, i.e. have 600m3 of forward flow to feed the last machines.

I thought this was well established before I even showed up.

(For clarity, that's 480 in and 120 out as a rate/minute, not 600 units moving on a single tick)

[prisma kraken]

there's still an issue with pushing 600 through an mk2 pipe, i recently ran into it

[modern lance]

Im a little confused with the numbers on the wiki for rotors, 363.46 iron ore/m is 51.64 WP, 140 iron ore/m is 19.89 WP, which is a consistent 7.038..., but 172.31 iron ore/m is 48.48 WP? Shouldn't it be ~24.5? or am I misunderstanding WP

[median heath]

Recommendation: Stop caring about WP because it is subjective anyway.

[modern lance]

i was doing a check if screws were ever useful, and going by the numbers its only rotors, using WP to save myself some math

[median heath]

If you have all recipes unlocked, the only "optimal" use for Screws is Copper Rotor, yes.

That being said, I love me some Bolted Frames.

Bolted Loop is one of my favorite BPs that I have made 🙂

[barren elm]

We really need at least 6x6 blueprints, look how cramped that is

[median heath]

Hard disagree.
4x4 is perfect.

[mystic moon]

I agree with that

Any more and it becomes very bad gd

Especially when you utilize the vertical space, you can fit a lot in a blueprint

As a matter of fact, you can fit entire production chains for <t5 items in a blueprint

[barren elm]

I like to see my builds, not have them look like uncooked ramen crammed into an incomprehensible cube

But I concede that's personal preference

[median heath]

I like to see builds too, that's why I don't use BPs for stuff like that.
As that is not what BPs are for.

[mystic moon]

My most common use for bps is architectural patterns and manifolds

Or a combination of both

[median heath]

I use them during progression to quickly set up stuff just to get it set up and I will make the permanent, custom factories once I get to T7-8.

[mystic moon]

When I find something that's really fiddly to build I'll typically blueprint it so I don't have to deal with it again

[thorny cedar]

i feel you

[thorny cedar]

like my geometry yea

[true junco]

BPs are for whatever you can can use them for.

[neon nexus]

im pretty sure i should take this one but i'd like some advice if possible xD, i have no idea which would be better (i havent automated hmf yet)

[wind spade]

see #math-and-meta message

[neon nexus]

thx and sry 😅

[wind spade]

no reason to apologise 🙂

[median heath]

3️⃣

[thorny cedar]

yea i would say 3 aswell

[frosty owl]

I feel like 6 might be a lot, but I think I would much enjoy a 5x5 upgrade already.

[thorny cedar]

maybe even 5x5 is to much but i would enjoy buildables can extend the bp creator and just get clipped and you can place the thing under an already build structure and bp it

[median heath]

Only thing the Printer needs added to it imo is the ability to place Miners/Extractors (especially WATER EXTRACTORS) into it.
Other than that is it near perfect as-is on U8.

[vapid gorge]

was it looped and flooded?

[prisma kraken]

flooded, yes, the configuration was i was making an odd amount of coke & fuel from 600 hor in a short manifold, it should have actually just worked, but wouldn't ever stop sloshing, dropping the pipe speed down to mk1 and feeding the hor from both sides of the manifold, coal generator style fixed the issue

i can grab a photo or two post fixup if you're that interested

full disclosure: i was expecting to see the issue, and just wanted to see if i could get away with a simpler piping scheme

[delicate chasm]

My take on it these days is very simply that whichever length of pipe is the manifold is the one that needs to be fed evenly, whatever else is going on.

Side feeding even short lines I just don't do anymore at all. It sidesteps nearly all fluid problems and doesn't really take up much extra space/copper sheets.

Exception for initial aluminum setups. That's just 2 refineries and a water extractor so it's not a manifold but it is side fed.

As a bonus: To some degree, a larger volume in a network helps soften the blow from glugging. This is true when top feeding.

That extra volume accounts for some of why looping helps even when the manifold is short enough that it SHOULDN'T, like your example @prisma kraken

||Constantly filling and emptying a pipe segment that can be emptied in one 'slurp' from each machine won't make a good system but if you change nothing other than adding a loop, you have also doubled the volume the manifold contains.||

[sand hare]

You guys discussing 4x4 vs 5x5 blueprints, but personally I couldn't keep playing the game unless I could copy entire factories in the editor. The fun is coming up with a great design, not placing brick on brick

Although, I stopped downloading other people's structures because it takes longer to debug them than to build the same thing from scratch sometimes

[oblique hollow]

thats a difference is preference

if you need to be able to plop down copies of factories, thats your playstyle

The base game blueprint system is not strong enough for that (even if modded)

[median heath]

Also the base game BP system reflect what the devs intend.

If your playstyle isn't in line with what they intend, that's where mods and the save editing megaprints come in.
Which they fully support you doing, but it doesn't mean they need to make it a baseline feature for everyone. 🤷‍♂️

Personally I could not imagine just copy/pasting someone else's work instantaneously.
I very much enjoy building my own stuff.

[sand hare]

Yeah, the game is very balanced for the progression. But shortly after unlocking everything, there are no more immediate goals. That's where it can sputter off, or it really shines. Building complex systems with no hand holding is not common in games.

[thorny cedar]

its just a different game in the same genre and i like it like that :3

[median heath]

Building complex systems with no hand holding is not common in games.

It's pretty standard in all sandboxes I have played.

[thorny cedar]

i played universe sandbox... its completely different!

[prisma kraken]

@vapid gorge @delicate chasm this is the pipe network i was speaking of; when i first built it, i had a single mk2 pipe feeding it in one direction before i turned it into a horseshoe of mk1 pipes feeding from both directions

[vapid gorge]

Might be a situation for a loop to deal with large fluid draw

[prisma kraken]

note i didn't loop it, i changed it from a direct feed manifold to one in which i'm pushing 300 hor from each side into the manifold; having the 2 sides connected just causes more sloshing in the pipe

it wasn't a big deal, i didn't expect to be able to push 600 through a pipe with the odd numbers the build needed, but i wished to see if the mk2 pipe bug still existed, and it does

i'm laughing a little... 500(ish) hrs into this save and i'm finally getting around to building a real intro copper factory

[frosty owl]

Can you throw the save my way for testing?
If you still have the "unfixed" version too, that'd be great ^^

[prisma kraken]

i don't have the unfixed version anymore, but it isn't hard to create, as for sharing the save, dm me if you'd like it

[prisma kraken]

hmmm, power cable bug again

[thorny cedar]

wait

[thorny cedar]

next time if you have this

plz tell me befor you solve it

[prisma kraken]

i figured out what it was, 2 power nubs coexisted at the same snap point

[thorny cedar]

nvm was not what i was looking for anyways but i had an issue with this aswell but cant replicate it for some reason

[prisma kraken]

i actually had it blueprinted, but saved over the bad version

but there really were 2 power nubs at that same snap point, you could wiggle the mouse and change which one you were pointing at

[thorny cedar]

i believe you no worries

[prisma kraken]

i'm saying it for sake of documenting it here

i think that may be a cause of a lot of the reports of bad power connections

[boreal summit]

If all else is equal/maxed, what's the theoretical max throughput of a single freight car?

like, if you have enough trains on that route to equal out travel time delays, input and output are maxed and suitably buffered, etc.

[thorny cedar]

https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/wiki/Tutorial:Train_throughput

[prisma kraken]

max you can push tops out at ~1490 for a 500 stack item

you need a perfectly timed trip and a 500 stack item to get anywhere near that, though

i personally don't like going much over 780/min per car

[wind spade]

Yeah, just go 1 belt = 1 car and you're safe in pretty much all cases

[prisma kraken]

on the flip side, for 100 stack items, you can usually do about 600/min unless its an extremely long trip

for that, its the car capacity that limits you, and you may need to double up on trains or split the load between 2 cars

in my current save, i have 2 train routes going up into pink forest for bauxite

give me a sec, and i'll show the routes

for the pure nodes i'm mining, the routes are too long for one train, but the normal nodes transfer fine. in my case i just doubled up the trains on each route to be able to push 780 or from the miners

i.e. 600 ore per car is on the hairy edge of what can be transfered

[boreal summit]

Thanks, that explanation is much easier to parse

[median heath]

Maximums
50 per Stack
-88.62s RtD
-1083.3 Items/min

100 per Stack
-150.16s RtD
-1278.66 Items/min

200 per Stack
-273.23s RtD
-1405.4 Items/min

500 per Stack
-642.46s RtD
-1494.25 Items/min

Fluid Trains
-107.08s RtD
-896.52 Items/min

[frosty owl]

Btw, @thorn bane (sorry for many pings, do say if it's annoying), how did you come up with how to use loopbacks in sushi-balancing for saturated sushi?

Observing such systems warming up, I realize I can't quite explain how the loopbacks achieve the result we want... It's like magic

[stone delta]

Sevrahn, how do you calculate the maximum throughput of a single truck ruote with mutiple trucks? Does it depend on render distance? Is there a best practice for making the truck route as reliable as possible?

[thorn bane]

to be honest i kinda just tried it and it worked
but it does make sense if you think about it
for example with a 5-1, every 6th item gets remerged but because you control exactly what items enter it it will always be the 6th item coming from that belt, which will make place exactly when that item enters the merger
you could even replace those items with junk like concrete and it would still always loop those back since its always the 6th item coming

[barren elm]

Trucks have crazy throughput, but there's no real way to calculate it beside just making the route and timing how long a round trip takes, preferably in render range because you don't want to get to a point where visiting a factory is going to break it

(also bonus tip, people recommend explorers a lot, but they flip like crazy in render range when driving on terrain)

[stone delta]

Agree. I wanted to get Sevrahn's opinion because he is the expert.

[prisma kraken]

really that is just the max for the station inputs & outputs (1560)

and as for making reliable truck routes, you make them as simple as possible and try not to have paths for vehicles come anywhere near one another

[stone delta]

I appreciate the response. At the same time, this does not fully address the case for multiple trucks on the same truck route, because you can also have multiple truck stations on the same truck route.

[prisma kraken]

its always limited by the belt speed in and out of the truck stations and is just a sum of the whole, add trucks to the route until they start not filling a complete load and you have max throughput. The exact number of trucks needed depends on how long it takes to fill the trucks

the math is simple with trucks, getting them to behave is difficult

[stone delta]

These parameters are in important, but there are more parameters. For example, render distance also effects the maximum through out and too many trucks can slow down the throughput due to truck to truck proximity

[prisma kraken]

i doubt anyone has done the math on that because it varies between every route

and being honest, i doubt anyone is actually pushing that sort of volume practically via truck

[stone delta]

If you constrain yourself to the specific condition that you want to use only one truck route to supply your nuclear reactors, then you will hit a limit

[prisma kraken]

there's several limits you hit, stack size, rtt and frieght capacity being the big ones

my honest opinion on the matter is that when you start trying to run multiple vehicles on the same path, you should save yourself the trouble and use trains

[stone delta]

yes, but from my experience with nuclear reactors, i have never hit those limits, the only limit i have encouterned is the trucks prevent each other from using the truck route efficiently due to collisions and suck

[stone delta]

the engineering challenge was to use all of your plutonim rods into powering vehcile logistics

[prisma kraken]

which is kind of the point i'm trying to make, you can't hit the theory limits because their behavior isn't very reliable in complex delivery networks

i actually tried that all a few months ago

i started the game over with a less insane premise

[stone delta]

its a qustion of whether there is a best practice to generate the best reliable through put under these conditions or its just not practicle, based on what i have seen from the community so far, most people i have talked to say they never thought to do it or attempted to find a solution

[prisma kraken]

i've tried

[stone delta]

have you documented your findings anywhere for others to read?

[prisma kraken]

it may seem i'm a bit negative about vehicles, but its because i've tried pushing them past the normal use-cases

not formally written up my findings for peer review or anything that extensive, no

[stone delta]

in my recent testing, i have made a truck like trains, as a truck substitute, in the event the devs some how make trucks more reliabe in the future

[prisma kraken]

but i've tried bussing goods into a max nuclear build fueld by pfr's and the experiment didn't end well

[stone delta]

i can send you my nuclear setup save file show casing truck like trains if you want

[oblique hollow]

small dedicated lines have always worked fine for trucks, but actually expanding that is the issue

[prisma kraken]

i also at the start of u7 did a no-train playthrough

[oblique hollow]

i ran a pretty decent sized oil rig with one truck and 4 stations (2 truck stops per location)

[prisma kraken]

where i started in DD and had to rely on vehicles for logistics, and by the end of that playthrough, it was all drones & long distance belting b/c i was having a lot of issues with them

vehicles work pretty well if you keep things with them simple

[prisma kraken]

you were just moving something like 1800 plastic+rubber and needed the extra belt capacity of the 2nd station?

[oblique hollow]

no the second station was moving stuff the other way

one is pickup, the other dropoff

[prisma kraken]

i've never tried that b/c you have to be very sure the vehicle is completely empty for the return load

[oblique hollow]

i just make it wait enough so i can guarantee its empty

because finite truck inventory + 120 stacks/min means finite time to unload

and unless im like shoving things into it recklessly there are no bottlenecks

[median heath]

Next time tag me so I don't have to scroll 😉

Truck route throughput doesn't have any calculation required. Maximum amount it can do is the full value of 2 belts.
So whatever you're putting into the pick-up station is the throughput at the drop-off station.

[prisma kraken]

what got me about vehicles in that nuclear experiment, actually is that vehicles burst 18 stacks entering the station hitbox and then transfer an additional stack every half second, which is pretty unintuitive and not really documented well anywhere

[oblique hollow]

never knew about the burst i just go with the 2 stacks per second value

that sounds like a bug in all honesty

[prisma kraken]

i kept wondering why with default wait times tractors & trucks were both transfering 20-21 stacks per trip

tbh, the pause on the stations should be auto-tuned to the vehicle's capacity as 1+(slots-18)/2

[oblique hollow]

if thats true then chaining 4 stations and just driving through should be peak loading and unloading

[prisma kraken]

or just make the entire burst transfer instant

its probably a relic behavior in the code from like update 2 or something that just keeps getting overlooked and is now burried in the update 5 fixups

[oblique hollow]

cant say i ever saw that happen myself

soooo fringe data with insufficient support

unless you can get other people to agree im calling this a "you only" bug

[prisma kraken]

i was really just experimenting with it, had a bunch of limestone miners and seeing what i could transfer and well, they don't work as you think they would,lol

[oblique hollow]

welp. I wouldnt go around claiming this as a fact atm

verification from other players needed

[prisma kraken]

seriously, just fill a tractor up and set it to make a delivery, it'll only transfer 20 or 21 stacks, it varies based on the number of seconds actually in the station hitbox, but you need to set the pause time to ~6 seconds to empty a tractor

you can sit in the station gui and watch the burst

[oblique hollow]

U8 or U7

[prisma kraken]

when i did this experiment it was first days of u8 on experimental, haven't gone back to u7 to check to see if behavior is the same

i wish i had a toybox u7 save for someone to verify my observation with that version, but i do remember seeing the trickle in of stacks in previous updates, can't recall if there was an 18 stack burst though

i think it honestly has just always kind of been that way, but people don't generally push vehicles anywhere near their capacity

i.e. in phase 2 or 3, you're not going to exceed the capacity of a tractor from a miner or two

[oblique hollow]

nnnnope, no bursts in U7

[prisma kraken]

maybe that was added in u8

...give me a sec

[oblique hollow]

you wont find a patch note for that

[prisma kraken]

yeah, i'm going to record what happens at the truck stop, but i wanted to restart the game first b/c the truck gui has a math error that causes a divide-by-zero

i think that's the #1 source of u8 crashes for me

i'm just waiting for the truck stop to fill atm

[oblique hollow]

still no bursts in U8

[prisma kraken]

ok, it doesn't quite burst as i said, but the effect is the same of it being 20-22 stacks transfered

i'll say the behavior is the same for the tractor & truck, its 18 stacks near immediately & then 1-3 stacks more depending on time in the hitbox

[oblique hollow]

wh... this was normal docking behaviour

no bursts

[median heath]

Trucks have never bursted.

Burst? Bursted? Bursten? Whatever the word is.

[prisma kraken]

try getting under 18 stacks out of a truck or tractor when it enters a station - you cannot = burst

[oblique hollow]

wth is that supposed to mean

your video showed nothing and that statement makes no sense

vehicle enters station hitbox > docking sequence begins

[prisma kraken]

the stacks appear in the station ui one at a time, but you can't not transfer 18 stacks from a fully loaded vehicle

[oblique hollow]

why didnt you show that then

[prisma kraken]

because i didn't think to do so 🙂

in any event, tl;dr, if you want to pick up or drop off more than 20 stacks at a station, change the pause time on the route

[oblique hollow]

thats kinda expected behaviour considering dropoff is time based

[prisma kraken]

i do wonder in the code if it is just a function of the time within the station hitbox, or there's some special '18+x' sort of code to get around some other bug

neither would surprise me

[neon nexus]

i've just started to build my first hypertubes canons to travel faster with minimal effort but i feel like the speed isnt rly 'constant' i feel like im not getting the same speed each time, is it a known thing ?

[vapid gorge]

you lose and gain momentum going up and down and initial velocity before going into the tube makes a difference

Also cannons are an exploit. Just be glad they work in some way. Apparently they're pretty borked in u8

[neon nexus]

makes sense

[neon nexus]

wdym by borked ?

[vapid gorge]

from what people have said cannon designs are just not working properly in hte new update

[neon nexus]

okok

ig i'll just have fun with it while it last

[leaden depot]

I thought I'd be clever and make a uranium fuel plant that has no splitters except raw materials. AKA nothing shared at all, 1 machine per step. no manifolds or anything.

It seemed like a good concept with blueprints

except the startup time is insane, becuase becons are set to 1/min and the recipe makes 20.

so it takes like a full hour before I get one fuel rod

because I clocked everything down to exact ratios

some machines are at 1-3%

[barren elm]

I think if you're at a point where a 1% underclock makes sense, it's time to have that factory supplying multiple modules

To say the least

[river night]

especially if its not part of the radiated production line, which i can understand wanting to keep tidy and perfect to reduce radiation 😄

[leaden depot]

I just thought it would be cool to have a 6x6 self-contained tower that can supply a maxed out nuke plant on top.

[vapid gorge]

if it only needs 1 pm and is being fed directly it shouldn't take thaaaat long? Unless the description is what I'm not understanding

[vapid gorge]

It would be yes 😄

imo

You could try flooding all the parts, besides uranium with smart splitters set to overflow that way once the uranium process balanced out everything would flow normally?

[leaden depot]

Once it starts up, everything will be operated 100%. I could overclock everything fully. To reduce the start up time. But then everything will be running at like one or 2% efficiency once it backs up.

[vapid gorge]

easier to hand feed stacks of items in at first

overclocking won't really solve the issue because presumably you have the correct amount of raw material feeding it?

[leaden depot]

That’s true. Trying to play in this world with perfect low balancing and trying not to let anything overflow. But it’s kinda hard when the ratios vary this wildly.

[vapid gorge]

So by my understanding you're basically direct feeding from one machine to the next right?

[leaden depot]

Yep

[vapid gorge]

are raw goods being delivered or mined on site?

[leaden depot]

The cool thing is, it scales pretty well this way. Even though I need thousands and thousands of iron for the whole project of Max uranium, the iron, for any single thing probably fits on a single belt, and I can scale the miner for exactly that

Raw inputs to each tower.

[vapid gorge]

yeah but delivery matters. If anythign is by vehicle you get it in bursts right?

at least until it balances out

[leaden depot]

Nothing is by vehicle 🙂

[vapid gorge]

ok so in theory, if you empty out the whole system, make sure all the primary machines are full whatever your starting raw ore or parts are using, then start it all up at once, it should spin up fairly shortly. Even wire/screws since direct feed won't get teh manifold spin time

[leaden depot]

I just think it will be cool to switch on all the minors at once. And if my calculations are good, all the power plants should go live at the same time and stay on 100%

The total time to get any power might be pretty high, though

[vapid gorge]

eh go have a snack or explore 😄

[vapid gorge]

sure but the travel tiem of the ores to particular spots might make a difference - I can't see the set up so can't tell you. Which is why the pre flood

and with the sink it'll still flow perfectly from the miners once it stabalises

It's a cool concept. And totally doable

[leaden depot]

This is why I need programmable, splitters, or at least an on off switch for them

[vapid gorge]

oh? I don't understand that bit

[leaden depot]

If I could use a power switch to stop all the belts right at the input.

[vapid gorge]

what would that do?

[leaden depot]

Oh, just let me start it all up without worrying about travel time making everything in consistent. But now I think of it that would be another buffer point that would be backed up which is what I’m trying to avoid.

The other cool thing about this set up, within a single tower. I can supply a max power plant only using Mark one belt.

[vapid gorge]

well you could delete the buffer point after everything is settled -

but for whatever reason you want the belts to stop right at the input point - put all the 1st tier machines on their own small grid with a switch so you can turn them off with a button. Machines, other than generators, stop accepting items when off.

[leaden depot]

Oh! I can just have everything go into sinks from the main input side of things via smart splitters. Then I can just quickly copy/paste a new rule set onto the whole row of splitters to enable the inputs, correcting for travel time. Awesome.

[vapid gorge]

I'll pretend to know your set up and assume that makes sense 🙂

[leaden depot]

Actually, I think the start-up time with everything clocked down is closer to 100 minutes.

[prisma kraken]

FYI, passing product through a truck station can function as an on/off switch if you modulate power to the station

[frosty owl]

I dunno... I've thought it over and the way the systems stabilize themselves is just magical

I made a Supercomputer setup, it just works so well... It also gets decently easy to design, with use.

[south walrus]

I'm starting work on a nuclear power plant, and I'm wondering when exactly those recipe changes for nuclear power items are going to come out, because when that is could change my plans.

[snow dove]

1.0

[south walrus]

Also, about how big is the radiation area produced by a nuclear reactor if it's full of fuel rods?

[snow dove]

40.6666 meters

equation if someone would double check that

[wind spade]

if there's only one reactor full of rods then it's the number above

if there's multiple reactors then it's no longer "circle" area

[south walrus]

Oh yeah of course. I can just measure from the reactors at the edge of the reactor area.

[wind spade]

that's not how it works

the area isn't "circle around reactor"

[south walrus]

Wait the radiation areas combine?

[wind spade]

technically there's no "area", any radioactive item radiates across whole map

just sum of radiation intensities from all items need to be larger than 0.2 for the area to be considered radioactive

and if it's 45 or larger, it's max possible radioactivity

[south walrus]

Well, wouldn't that mean still mean that the reactors on that outside of the reactor building would reach the farthest with their radiation?

Or does the radiation from more reactors combine to extend the range of the outer ones?

[snow dove]

having a reactor anywhere in the world at least marginally increases the range in which you'll take radiation damage

if the red line is equal to or above that blue line, you take damage, if it's below, you're fine

x is distance, y is radiation value

the red line approaches both infinity and negative infinity so it never drops off fully

[wind spade]

each item radiates across whole map, intensity drops heavily with distance
intensities from all items are summed at the position of player
result above 0.2 is radioactive

[snow dove]

cap is 45 which is 100% radiation

[south walrus]

Yes, but wouldn't this still mean that the reactors on the outside of the reactor area would emit radiation the farthest?

[snow dove]

anything closer than .5 meters is counted as .5 meters, anything in the inventory is counted as .5 meters

[snow dove]

no they all emit the same radiation

[south walrus]

Or would the radiation emitted by each reactor cause the total amount of radiation to go higher which would result in a larger effected area?

[snow dove]

if i’m understanding that one correctly, that one

[wind spade]

all reactors emit same radiation intensity
sum of intensities at given point depends on placement of reactors

[south walrus]

@wind spade @snow dove Ok, I figured a visual would help a lot.

Is it A: Radiation from both sources combines into super radiation that reaches farther

Or B: Radiation from both sources reaches the same distance, and the only effect of their areas overlapping is that the radiation is worse there, not that the radiation reaches farther.

[main dirge]

A, but past the "cutoff" for the first source the component from it is negligible, so the "super" radiation is more like the second source plus one nanometre

[thorny cedar]

https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/wiki/Radiation

[wind spade]

imagine it like this
each circle has increasing value
the outermost one is e.g. 0.0001, second outermost is 0.0002, etc., eventually reaching middle with values like 10, 50, ... (the exact numbers are not important, just that middle is a lot, but it quickly drops as it goes outwards

there's also infinite amount of circles, so it goes forever, decreasing the value with distance

now for each reactor, put these circles on it and then you sum the values for the place you're looking at

for example if there's two reactors and you're on the red point, you sum the green and yellow intensity

[south walrus]

Ah ok. I was wondering about range not intensity. The range at which the radiation from the green reactor is noticeable is not increased, despite the yellow reactor's presence, right?

[main dirge]

The range is infinite

[magic island]

they don't blob together to produce a field that's stronger or differently-shaped than the separately-calculated fields

[wind spade]

intensity is calculated for each reactor (or rather, for each stack of items, including those in machines) separately

intensity for one stack of items depends on distance between the point of measurement and the stack

total intensity is then sum of all intensities from all items

and total intensity is what is used to determine if you're in radioactive place or not

[main dirge]

So technically it doesn't increase? ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[wind spade]

for example, if yellow intensity was 0.1 and green intensity was 0.15, standing just in one of the fields would not do anything, but standing in the point where they meet, you have 0.25 intensity, which is more than 0.2, so radioactive

[snow dove]

the radiation outputted from one reactor isn't increased by another, but the range in which a player will take radiation damage is bulged slightly toward the other reactor

[main dirge]

Imagine a guy screaming in the room next to you and a guy screaming in the garden next door. You can technically hear the guy next door but he really doesn't matter much compared to the guy screaming in your ear. You can hear both of them from the end of the street, just quietly and you can't tell them apart. If you go to the edge of town they're too quiet for you to hear, but they're still screaming and a sensitive enough microphone could hear them.

[sand hare]

Does hiding the machines in a walled off box help the computer compute frames easier?

[mystic moon]

Not a lot

[vapid gorge]

it's almost entirely about the amount of stuff around

Also lights/signs

[sand hare]

So since walls are stuff, they actually hurt performance?

But they have very few polygons

[vapid gorge]

and they optimized them to count as less stuff when tey are connected - but there's stlil the factory there doing stuff

you do you though.

[echo geyser]

@vapid gorge idk if this screenshot works

ill send the design real quick

[vapid gorge]

try for an overhead shot that shows the layout:)

[echo geyser]

best shot I could get

[snow dove]

clock speeds for the coal generators and water extractor would be great

[echo geyser]

clock speeds?

[vapid gorge]

let me?

[snow dove]

ah got it!

[echo geyser]

1 sec for water extractor and 4 sec for coal generators (I assume thats what you meant)

[vapid gorge]

so first off - how much water does 3 coal gens need pm?

[echo geyser]

45

[vapid gorge]

ok how much does your extractor do pm?

[wind spade]

||the water extractor produces 120/min, each coal gen needs 45/min, total 135/min, you're missing 15/min water||

[vapid gorge]

and you mean 45x3 🙂

[echo geyser]

yh my bad

[vapid gorge]

and the water extractor does 120 water pm right?

[echo geyser]

yeah

[vapid gorge]

is that enough?

[echo geyser]

no I guess I did my math wrong lol I thought one water extractor could do 4 at a time for some reason

[vapid gorge]

it happens 🙂

[vapid gorge]

because of belt speeds it's common to use a 3:8 extractor:generator system

[echo geyser]

so should I expand to a few more coal gens since I need a 2nd water extractor anyways (since i only have like 4 power shards rn)

[vapid gorge]

well you only really want shards for the miners and you can find more easily

[echo geyser]

wow thats really helpful actually

[vapid gorge]

But generally you'll be limited by your belt speed

[echo geyser]

really? Im close to getting miner mk2 tho and I feel like constructers/assemblers would be most important since theyre super slow

[vapid gorge]

just build more constructors and assemblers 🙂

Shards used on things other than miners? just save space. Since you automate all the parts for machines and nodes are infinite you'll get infinite parts over time right?

[echo geyser]

tru

theres a few things im not automating atm rn tho

[vapid gorge]

At the moment it doesn't feel that way because you've been using NON automated power

or that

as you build up 48 -64 coal gens is not a silly number to have, just keep expanding as you get new miners and belts

and definitely have some automation for every part

[echo geyser]

JEEZ 48???? is that the last power source in the game?

[vapid gorge]

the first real one. Then fuel, then nuclear

you can start using fuel power a lot sooner and have fewer coal gens but I don't like doing that personally

The mW cost of machines goes up a LOT.
The next machine you'll unlock are refineries and they take up 75mW

so more than 1/2 a coal gen when you take into account the power cost of miners and extractors

oh wait I'm wrong

sorry 30mw, about 1/2 a coal gen

was mixing some building stats up

[echo geyser]

welp guess im gunna remake my coal gen setup to that third one cuz i like that one

[vapid gorge]

they're all essentially the same BUT I do have a pop quiz for you

why do you think they show all the water extractors coming in at different points?

(I'm asking because this is the other most common issue people have)

[echo geyser]

to make the flow of everything equal?

no clue ngl

[vapid gorge]

not quite. How much would 3 extractors make? and what is the throughput of mk1 pipes?

[echo geyser]

360pm and 300pm?

[vapid gorge]

ok what would happen if you tried shoving 360 pm down a 300 pm pipe?

[echo geyser]

bad stuff lol

[vapid gorge]

well you'd only get 300 right 😛 so how do these designs solve that?

[echo geyser]

by changing the distance between them to make it efficient

[vapid gorge]

noooot quite. Also I'm not just harassing you - you'll find this important later on

ok so the top design in the image - on the left 120 water is coming in from that extractor right?

[echo geyser]

yeah

[vapid gorge]

and some of that water will be consumed by the 1st coal gen?

[echo geyser]

mhm

[vapid gorge]

so if the water is coming in at different points and some of it is getting consumed before it meets the other extractors...

remember the problem is we can't have more than 300 pm at any point

[echo geyser]

I think my brain has used its battery for today

am I supposed to take into account flow speed dropoff over distance

[vapid gorge]

even easier

because some of the machines consume water at no point is there ever more than 300 pm going through any point in the pipes

[thorny cedar]

first generator uses 45 scnd generator uses 45 3rd generator uses 45

and so on and so on where do you put the pipe

[vapid gorge]

and the reason I went through this with you is that so many people try to cram 3 extractors down 1 pipe 🙂

So all 3 designs are effectively the same, just a different layout. You could create your own as long as no point in the system goes over the throughput of hte pipe

[hoary locust]

because of belt speeds it s common to

[echo geyser]

I think i finally did it :)

nvm actually, some stuff isnt getting enough coal

ughhhh yo i did all my math right too

not every gen is active all the time bruhhhhhh

[fierce ruin]

48 gens is my magic coal number.

[oblique hollow]

give it some time. At this point ( almost 3 hours later) it should be stable

[distant dagger]

im busy planning a nuclear power plant that should use all the uranium in the world, i need all this caterium. im not super experienced with trains, would this be a decent line on which i can add some trains? ill smelt them to ingots before loading them on the train to save space and theyll be offloaded on the X.

[wind spade]

I personally don't like loops and prefer direct route from A to B

[distant dagger]

yeah i did that yesterday and i got very weird issues with my sulfur line, so i dont really want to anymore although im p sure its bugged

[wind spade]

what is bugged?

[distant dagger]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1163584572680839228/1163769302516768819/2023-10-17_11-21-08.mkv?ex=6540c79f&is=652e529f&hm=d6bb1e5d623a42387e1640b3688be3168fcae5683de996b9fc713331fd3ecb08&

[wind spade]

the second station is the wrong way around

train needs to arrive in the direction of the station

[distant dagger]

its a chain of multiple stations, which worked fine before i updated my game yesterday

anyway how else would it have to function if its a bidirectional track? do i build 2 stations on every stop then?

[wind spade]

no

if it's direct A to B, then you only need two stations

if it's more stations, then it's no longer A to B

[distant dagger]

it also did not work before when i sent it to station D

at station A and D it does a loop, like the one u saw in the video

same error

[wind spade]

does it stop at all stations?

in both directions?

[deft lichen]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1160597181317791905/1161057729905963179/through-station.png?ex=654024c6&is=652dafc6&hm=ce0d6f69fbf4d5d26ec1b755674678ad92f3a745c798e5e73f6260ada8aebfeb&

[distant dagger]

yes

[distant dagger]

no

[wind spade]

and yeah that ^ if you for some reason need the station accesible from both directions

each station needs to be accesible in the direction of arrival

[distant dagger]

its only 1 track though, not 2

[wind spade]

so if you have station like this ===>, then it needs to be accessible from left side (= is platform, > is station)

[deft lichen]

Oh sorry, bidirectional track

I guess you build the same, just to allow trains to turn around

With NO SIGNALS, except surrounding the station itself

[distant dagger]

yes, i had it like that

[wind spade]

in the video you didn't

the second station was the other way around

[distant dagger]

so this is what i had

x = train station, - = freight station

i had it to go from the bottom station to the top station, then pass each station

this worked before i updated the game yesterday (U8 Experimental), after that it stopped working

[wind spade]

it can only stop in the middle stations when going from top to bottom

[distant dagger]

yes

as its supposed to

the bottom one is the offloading one, the others are all loading ones

but yes i have no idea why i wont go to the next stations rn

if anyone could explain what im doing wrong itd be amazing

[distant dagger]

Fixed it nvm!

[shut coyote]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/862088688565878826/1163774423833264228/image.png?ex=6540cc64&is=652e5764&hm=28f552674992f105d07001ce3060f82558dee8dba801fc856031434fd490c977&

aight how's this look

18 motors/min, using 460 iron and 180 coal

[frosty owl]

Looks like it could use more sushi

[shut coyote]

true

but I'll figure out sushi when I have more leeway on belt capacity

cause the way I segmented it doesn't really allow for sushi unless I used a bunch of belts per item

[frosty owl]

Assembly-products are almost never made in belt-capacity quantities. It's all about choosing the right items to deal with (eg: 18 motors need a total of 72 items/min for input)

[shut coyote]

was mostly the wire really

[frosty owl]

That's not an assembly product, in fact :P (I meant stuff MADE by assemblers)

[shut coyote]

ah

but yeah again, due to how I've segmented this

sushi aint really possible

[frosty owl]

I was mainly pointing out the sushi for the motor assemblers themselves given throughput involved for stators and rotors and the aviability of a belt that could be used for overflow right there too (the looping output belt)

[shut coyote]

but I'll figure it out later - it does seem cool

[shut coyote]

shit u right

time for my first sushi!

[frosty owl]

Good luck have fun ^^

[shut coyote]

(hopefully I don't somehow fuck it up)

[frosty owl]

If you do, I'll gladly help :)

[shut coyote]

well, looks solid

[shadow marsh]

Oooh, now I want to do some sushi stuff in the uranium fuel plant I'm building; got a good tutorial somewhere on how to successfully set sushi systems up?

[shut coyote]

balls. cause the production's disjointed the belt segments leading to the machines only have one item type

will have to run it for a while to see if it's an issue

hopefully not

fuck it is

mathematically it shouldnt be a problem

[frosty owl]

That's because you normally use TWO belts per machine, one for every input item 😆
Smart splitters to filter other items and overflow out of the way (to the overflow line)

[shut coyote]

ah

yup that makes a lot more sense.

[frosty owl]

You can use one belt per machine, but that needs more care and results in more delicate setups

Definetly not the kind of sushi to start from 😅

[frosty owl]

I think the best I know is on Reddit (or you can just ask the enthusiastic people in this Discord 😁). I can dig it up if you wish.

[shut coyote]

yeah I kiiiinda forgot about smart splitters

since before, I've basically never used them before

[frosty owl]

Funfact: if you have a belt with 2 items alternating and split it with a normal splitter, you get 2 "pure" belts (single-item on each). If you split it 3 ways, the item pattern is preserved instead...

[frosty owl]

And now we can upgrade to them from normal splitters too (U8)!!

[shut coyote]

yup

knew that - since due to the alternating pattern it can kinda "knit" itself together

[shut coyote]

oh shit

[shut coyote]

I do still like my way of having splitters on lifts for one input

buuuuut this way is a bit cleaner

that explains why it was uneven

forgot to add a single belt.

and had a mk3 lift instead of a mk4

@frosty owl sushi master, I require assistance

blocked itself - should I just stick a belt at the end looping back to the start of the smart splitters?

that'd work, but is there a better way

[frosty owl]

That would "lock" it, not good ^^
You normally just "overflow" to the overflow belt (eg: output belt of the factory) so that the sushi doesn't block (which causes parts to not reach machines)

Do you have stators on the belt? Are they just not reaching because the sushi is stopped?

[shut coyote]

yeah there's stators

[frosty owl]

I'm assuming the motors assemblers are the ones in the front here?

[shut coyote]

all the machines shown are motor assemblers

[shut coyote]

so I just sink anything that overflows?

[frosty owl]

Then yes, you could just have the overflow merge together with the factory output in a very simple manner

[frosty owl]

Sink it, consume it, store it... As long as the sushi doesn't stop, all splitters will have stators and rotors to feed the machines with

[shut coyote]

cool

[frosty owl]

There exist ways to make sushi that "can stop", but that's a tad more complex and almost always need heavy load-balancing

[shut coyote]

once it fully starts up and I fix the small issues, there shouldnt be any overflow

but till then, may as well store or sink

[frosty owl]

You could take away the overflow belt, but that's a bit daring. If there's any issue in production (eg: lack of coal causing a lack of Steel Pipes causing lack of Stators) you'll have to manually intervene to get things back online if they back up

With an overflow belt aviable, any issue in production just means some overflow to handle and the system will resume working fine as soon as input are provided properly again. No manual intervention needed (other than fixing whatever was causing lack of input ofc)

[shut coyote]

yeah - my issue was my wires lol

wasnt feeding them right

so the belt was overloaded

not exactly ideal

well, fingers crossed I finally fixed all the shit

heh
in the hour It's been (mostly) running, made over 1.2k motors

that's the most motors I think I've ever made