math-and-meta

[oblique hollow]

https://u6.satisfactorytools.com/production

[raven path]

Ok thanks

Yoo its sick

[hollow anchor]

Any1 knows what a manifold means, the wiki is speaking another language lmao

[frosty owl]

What part confuses you?

[hollow anchor]

The usage of word since I don't know half of the words

[oblique hollow]

a chain of splitters usually

it relies on overfeeding a machine

[cinder silo]

In simpler terms a line of splitters each leading to one or two machines.

And I'm slow today.

[oblique hollow]

and then excess material gets moved to the next machine and so on

[hollow anchor]

a

[cinder silo]

This is a manifold setup.

[swift robin]

just realizing i could have used floating splitters in my blueprints to make them easier to traverse -_-

[cinder silo]

They're technically not floating, just mounted atop risers.

[mortal viper]

For my 16 coal power plant setup, do I need three main water pipes divided among the power plants? The mk1 water pipe only takes 300 m3/min and 6 power plants consume 270 m3/min.

[brittle kayak]

3 water extractors for every 8 coal generators, so unless you're overclocking, you should have 6 extractors.

https://www.reddit.com/r/SatisfactoryGame/comments/f71l73/how_you_can_use_3_water_extractors_for_8_coal/

[elfin nebula]

its one of two perfect steel locations
no power plant there

[mortal viper]

So if I understand that image correct, I would have a bottle-neck if I were to put all my water extractors in the bottom, and have them funnel all water up top. To avoid it, I would have to run a secondary pipe, because I would have 360m3 of water trying to go through that initial 300m3 pipe

[oblique hollow]

yup.
and for 16 gens, its just double of that

[elfin nebula]

@fathom wadi #screenshots message
you sure with these numbers?
im doing 4050 turbofuel, that are 900 generators, doing 135 000 MW
so your 4000 turbofuel in 400 generators doing 60 000 MW isnt nearly correct

[fathom wadi]

wait yeah i was gonna overclock them to use 10 per min and i forgot to calculate the power increase

oopsies i guess we are getting more power

[elfin nebula]

also, what are your future sulfur plans?

[fathom wadi]

idk but i think using like 1/3 of the sulphur would be fine to leave us enough for stuff like batteries and such

[cinder silo]

4000 turbofuel got me 133200mw.

[elfin nebula]

im doing this

and the 2025 sulfur are in limit, so we cant build everything else we wanted

so max nuclear already isnt possible for us anymore

and you use even more with the inefficient recipe

what could bring youu problems, depending on future plan

[fathom wadi]

well im currently in t6 so i dont have blenders yet but i jsut want a big project cus everyone else is doing small ones

[elfin nebula]

would really wait for blenders tbh

the suulfur usage is just oof

[fathom wadi]

i might just use normal fuel and not use turbo

[elfin nebula]

diluted, but yeah

[fathom wadi]

or if i really do need it i could make a backup of turbofuel like a massive one and switch this off to turn on nuclear

[elfin nebula]

you already doing diluted packaged there, right?

[fathom wadi]

yup

[elfin nebula]

hm. for us the time between getting fuel gens and blenders wasnt really long

yeah, youre in t6, the first of t7 already are blenders

and it costs nothing special

[fathom wadi]

yeah thats not bad at all

[elfin nebula]

though a small aluminum production for the blenders itself

because you need some casings

but yeah, wouldnt build a large turbofuel plant before unlocking the full build for it, except you plan to remove it later and use the sulfur for something else

[fathom wadi]

yeah i will rush to t7 (well not really rush cus we have most stuff automated

[elfin nebula]

we rushed all milestones and then started to build actual factories xD

[fathom wadi]

apart from motors for some reason and high speed connectors and circuit boards

[fathom wadi]

yeah i was tempted to do that cus i have played like 600h and just keep getting bored cus there is so much to unlock

altho i cant make progress rn cus i have a friend

[elfin nebula]

hm

why no progress?

[brittle kayak]

I took my sweet time going through the milestones and phases... and now I'm building real factories.

[fathom wadi]

#screenshots message

and also the friends that i play with like to make tiny unorganised factories cus they cba making actuall efficient ones

[elfin nebula]

cba?

[fathom wadi]

cant be arsed

cant be bothered

i think its a brittish thing

i have been wanting to play multiplayer with people for so long but like everyone i find to play with on #looking-for-group-old arent that into it or are really new

i just want someone to play with who likes making big factories but i get that it takes ages and it gets difficult with multiple people

[fathom wadi]

for example one of them only figured out yesterday 50h in that the machines say how much they produce per min and that they can make the numbers line up. they still dont bother

[true junco]

designing compact modules with multiple processes per BP is revealing just how much of the math in this game is just common fractions (int/16). from where i used to think of machine ratios as matching whole number of machines per manifold for one product output into another product input

example, pure iron ref at 50%(1/2) output matches solid steel foundry at 84.25%(13/16)

which follows from manifold matching them... 8 pure iron refs to 13 SSfoundries.

can scale up from the machine 1 to 1 clocking as needed...

so a pure iron ref at 100% can feed a SSFoundry at 162.5% (1 5/8))

or 150% of a PIRef can feed an SSFndry at 243.75% (2 7/16)

[velvet void]

whats the formula for drone throughput and also train throughput?

[wind spade]

drone throughput: drone inventory size / travel time

train throughput is on wiki somewhere

[snow dove]

!wikisearch train_throughput

[brisk shore]

https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/index.php?search=train_throughput

[wind spade]

@ember scaffold power optimised SC production using OC recipe vs normal recipe (second screenshot)

eh hang on, there's a byproduct...

OC (first) vs normal (second) - building count optimisation

[elfin nebula]

and then super state comps come with their 164 buildings

least buildings, least resources, least power

btw, is the tools website drunk sometimes? @wind spade

tf is it doing there

spamming random unused stuff

[wind spade]

yes it is indeed 🙂

mostly just rounding errors, can be safely ignored

[elfin nebula]

but even when rounding, why completely separate

they arent connected to anything

[wind spade]

well connections are made by separate algorithm than what makes the math

[elfin nebula]

i see

so second algorithm also wondering tf the first one did there

[wind spade]

second algorithm basically gets list of "X buildings making Y recipe"

and calculates how much that makes/needs and tries to make reasonable connections

[vapid gorge]

You stil having issues with your coal @fierce ruin ?

[fierce ruin]

no, someone helped me out with it a bit ago

[regal bobcat]

any good Assembly Director Systems setups/tips? this is a lot 🥴

[wind spade]

pretty much just "follow the calculator you use / calculations you made" 🤷‍♂️ 🙂

[vapid gorge]

use sftools to fiddle with alt recipes while using SCIM to find a good location for it

[elfin nebula]

ima post the sub-factories anti clockwise

starting from the heavy frames (in full grass fields biome)

wiring (dune desert)

boards (western beaches)

computers (green valley, around the river and above the lake)

batteries (titan forest / titan flats, aluminum stuff in red bamboo)

control rods (desert canyons, sheets at lake forest, copper from titan forest pond)

not covered here: plastic and rubber for the reinforced plates and cables. that is excess of turbofuel etc.
and again plastic from batteries, that is excess from another phase 4 part

but these are basically the factories and recipes i would build for that
(actually in construction atm, would expect the posted stuff to take like 1k hours to build tbh)

[regal bobcat]

thank you!

[elfin nebula]

also that takes quite some power, so a power plant could be needed as well

[elfin nebula]

would not build that 1:1, its matched to the other three phase 4 parts and power setup.
but the recipes and grouping could be an inspiration

in general the idea of splitting stuff in many small factories.
dont try to get that in a single flowchart, or even worse, in one factory. except you only want like 1 per minute

also, as you see, numbers dont match, because quite some factories produce for a second factory as well. they are all so large, that they cant be combined anyway and needs their products shipped, so i can produce for more than one factory

but im quite proud of my plan, took quite some hours

[wind spade]

this is just one of my two operating systems... the other one has like 3 times as much xD

[elfin nebula]

well, you have many times the same factory

that makes it look much

[wind spade]

it's not "same factory" though 🙂 it's usually different factories either comparing recipes or showing a bug or something

[elfin nebula]

yeah i know, still meaning that they are not all large factories

[wind spade]

none of that is built in my save (and I don't have a save anyway, if you don't count the May 2019 one)

[elfin nebula]

like i also have a few frame factories, butu they are too small to separate like this

oh also, most stuff of the plan is also not built yet, so if something feels really odd, pls tell me

[obsidian creek]

1 to 13 balancer got me thinking about my lifechoices...

[vapid gorge]

Have you heard the word of our lord and saviour Overflow Manifold?

[elfin nebula]

any overflow balancer works

[obsidian creek]

No

[vapid gorge]

You've never used a manifold?

[obsidian creek]

Im a masochist and have no manifold in my world

[vapid gorge]

ah but you HAVE heard of them right?

[obsidian creek]

Yeah

Yeah

[vapid gorge]

ok as long as you're at least aware of them you are free to abuse yourself how you see fit

[obsidian creek]

Yeah just annoys me that the first one gets more

[vapid gorge]

pre fill them. Removes spin up time

[obsidian creek]

Maybe its my socialist genes kickin in

[vapid gorge]

My slogan is essentially eat the rich - I still use manifolds 😛

[obsidian creek]

But yeah

1 to 13 WAS a pain

But eventually i figured it out

[elfin nebula]

depending on the numbers you can use smart splitters

[obsidian creek]

Actually it was the first time i used a loop in a balancer

[obsidian creek]

At the beginning i had it set on a smart spliter to isolate 1 mk.1 belt as my goal was to convert 780 items into 26 smelter at 100%

Caus 720 then divided by 2 is 360 wich is easily divided by 12

[vapid gorge]

my understanding is that there are guides on reddit for all sorts of splits, even prime number ones which are apparently a pain?

[obsidian creek]

Well yes although this one was found on yt

It divides by 18 an makes 5 go back to the beninging

[vapid gorge]

Sounds like a massive pain in the ass

[obsidian creek]

Not really

But i felt the urge to make the floor btwin the 2 i made glass

[mental anchor]

Hello guys, how your day's going ? Just want to ask a little question :
Is it possible, on a production line, to manifold only the first smelters after the raw ore, and use some load balance just after for the constructor line ? Thx for the answers, don't paid to much attention to my english ^^ !

And have a nice day !

[deft lichen]

why do you need to load balance though?

well, what is your final product(s)

[mental anchor]

To reduce the manifold's time to feed, and because my belts are still too low

[mental anchor]

A first rotor's setup

[deft lichen]

you can reduce time to feed by pre-filling, but it's not really an issue with these early game factories

[mental anchor]

Okay so i should manifold all my lines ?

[deft lichen]

it should be doable, except for screws

[mental anchor]

I hate screw xD

[deft lichen]

you need 2.5 constructors per assembler, so it works if you have 5 constructors and 2 assemblers all at 100%
else just underclock

[mental anchor]

Yeah, i will figure out to manifold everything i think

[deft lichen]

just don't ever exceed the belt limits and you should be good

[mental anchor]

Fine !

[deft lichen]

there was that person asking the oil setup question who just deleted their message as I was typing a reply, too bad

[mental anchor]

For the moment, i'm basically setting up some rotor's and RIP factory at 10 per minutes for each, and i will just split five of them to quickly reach the 50 smart plating, then i will send back all the 10 rotors and 10 RIP into storage ^^

[deft lichen]

you don't need to set up a permanent setup for the smart plating

I just send everything from storage, and make smart plating by feeding the assembler from storage containers

[mental anchor]

YEah, that's not what i'm doing

I'm just gonna split my output of rotor's and RIP just to make the first 50 SP then remove the split and send back all the production rate into storage

But don't really know, is 5 RIP and 5 rotors enough for the early game or should i move out to 10 ?

Like i was planning

[deft lichen]

you need more smart plating for the next unlock

and every unlock after that

[mental anchor]

Yes i know that ^^ But this will be in a long time and want to make a factory for each product, so i'm planning to build some SP with a biggest ratio later. I'm gonna make the first few one's with storage feeding assembler just like you said

[deft lichen]

5 rotors/min is fine, I'd maybe up reinforced plates to 10/min, but even the 5 will work

when you get to automating motors and modular frames, just make them from scratch

don't use the rotor factory's output to make the motor factory

[mental anchor]

Yep of course, and i will wait for the steel rotor's and stator's recipe ^^

So i'm gonna make 5 rotor's only for storage and 10 RIP's, and make the smart plating from storage to assembler like you said. The biggest rate will come later ^^ thanks !

Oh and, is it okay if some constructor are at X,3334 for manifold or the ratio will be broken ? ^^

[deft lichen]

if it's 33.3333%, set the clock to 33.3334%

it will probably take months of in game time for it to reach that error anyway

[median heath]

[deft lichen]

Sev, the hoverpack grid change bug does more damage than this ever will 😛

[median heath]

Just don't use Hoverpack, problem solved 😉

[mental anchor]

Fine, thanks alot !

[oblique hollow]

last i checked with fluids, 8000 hours or so is the minimum for one system to have a stalling issue.

well, theoretically at least

[fierce ruin]

if i want to move heavy oil residue from site A to site B (about 1km distance, if that matters) to produce both packaged turbofuel and turbofuel for fuel gen purposes, is it better to produce heavy oil and packages separately at site A before moving, or move packaged heavy oil residue and unpackage it at site B? if it matters im a new player and there's so many options when it comes to oil processing 😅 currently using the 3 crude oil -> 4 heavy oil residue + 2 polymer resin recipe in the refineries at site A (making rubber is no problem with the polymer resin + water recipe)
the pipes are already set up, but i dont mind deleting all of it if just transferring packaged heavy oil residue works better, but i also dont really want to make a lot of packagers if it turns out to not be worth it
could also invest into vehicle transport (sadly not trains, yet), since there's other oil spots in site A
(in terms of what i'd want to optimise in this case, it'd probably be the space requirement mostly, then painfulness to set up, and as for why i'm moving heavy oil, i wanted a small amount to automate rifle ammo)

[dim spire]

Transporting packaged will avoid any pipe wonkiness, transporting packaged would be more involved. These other fellows know more about the math as to which would offer the better overall throughput (which will probably come down to how you intend to move the pakcaged fuel).

[fierce ruin]

it would only be conveyor mk4s at the current moment, cause not unlocking trains until fully automating computers/heavy modular frames

[dim spire]

Do you have mk2 pipes?

[fierce ruin]

yes

[dim spire]

Mk2 pipes would allow for greather throughput with fewer lines than mk4 conveyors, if that's your goal.

[fierce ruin]

would it be worth it to research truck/tractor item transport as a temporary thing?

research as in 'learn', i have them unlocked already 😛

[dim spire]

I'd have to let one of the other guys answer that, as then your throughput becomes a matter of how many vehicles you have running, and that math is a bit beyond me atm.

[fierce ruin]

fair enough, ty anyway

think temporarily i'll just transfer both fluid and packages, deleting the pipes can come later when the setup is more permanent

[oblique hollow]

I did packaged heavy oil from the east crater lake all the way to grass fields

Would do it again

300/min is faster on a belt than 300 in a pipe for a few reasons

mk 4 can do 480 so thats already a plus of 180/min

and belts are one directional and simply move stuff faster over long distance

[dim spire]

Ah, I was thinking of the 600 in mk2 pipes

[lofty smelt]

Ah. I would probably do the same cause I always seem to have problems with pipes.

[oblique hollow]

again, good for long distance stuff, but for short distances sticking with pipes is usually the better way

[lofty smelt]

Ah. Okie.

[fierce ruin]

im not producing enough heavy oil to warrant needing the higher throughput that a conveyor would give, so i'll do this later if needed to expand further 👍 thanks for the input
would need like 27 packagers or so total to handle the packing and unpacking

[deft lichen]

not sure if mentioned, but generally moving fluids long distance would be the first thing you want to avoid, but it can be unavoidable if e.g. the oil is in a bad location

so for producing turbofuel, you'd get the sulfur and stuff to the oil, and burn it off there

[snow dove]

its usually much easier to move solid to fluid than fluid to solid

especially if that fluid is a liquid

[deft lichen]

nitrogen is an exception imo, those wells are in the middle of nowhere

[fierce ruin]

it's a bit late to redo my setups unfortunately for now, also i needed to route copper at the same time since i wanted to make rifle ammo (borrowing copper from a miner that was already in use)
so it was like... move 3 items vs move 1 fluid :/

save it for next time, i suppose

[deft lichen]

no need to rebuild setups, just something to keep in mind for later

a working factory is a working factory

[fierce ruin]

still learning after all, knowing that im doing something wrong now is better

[fathom wadi]

#screenshots message are the maths on this all correct i want to know. i had a previuse one without blenders and using diluted packaged fuel and worked it out to make 4000 turbofuel with the 1800 crude and with blenders it seems to be alot less

[dusky zenith]

iirc turbo blend fuel is the most sulfur efficient recipe, while the default recipe is the most oil efficient. That would be why you get less turbofuel from blenders if you are measuring based on the oil. The benefit of turbo blend is saving sulfer (which is rarer than oil)

[fathom wadi]

ok well i might just go find more oil then

[elfin nebula]

also switch the packeged diluted to normal diluted

doesnt make more, but us a lot easier to build and more efficient

[oblique hollow]

upside of diluted packaged: funny canister loop is funny to look at

[wind spade]

it has the same efficiency

[oblique hollow]

slightly different power/space efficiency but eeeeeh close enough to being equal

[elfin nebula]

only resource wise.
place, power and especially building complecity is highly different

so when its not already built and you have blenders, not a single reason to build packeged version

[wind spade]

not very highly... the difference is pretty small

[elfin nebula]

the building complexity is extremely different

[oblique hollow]

if you need the packaged fuel directly, such as for long range transport or vehicles, its a good bet

[wind spade]

how so?

[oblique hollow]

if you make a closed loop of refinery and packagers, its just 2 liquid inputs and one liquid output, like with blenders

[elfin nebula]

a blender with just two pipe inputs and one output is way simpler than a full loop with canisters, packing, unpacking etc

[oblique hollow]

blueprints can axe that complexity and make it a one-time puzzle

after that you basically got a bootleg blender

[wind spade]

"full loop" is 3 buildings + 10 packages

[elfin nebula]

still more to do and worse power. also on large scale more performance hungry

[oblique hollow]

looks funny tho

and style points count

[ashen mauve]

Does anyone have a spreadsheet for a max nuclear power setup? I have, I think around 2100 uranium/min. And I’m not overly sure what recipes to use for the max efficiency and products.

[elfin nebula]

https://u6.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=RrvPK0mXEO9hZHQ6dfik

[ashen mauve]

Ty

[elfin nebula]

though we do this, just with 1800 and not 2100

[ashen mauve]

Why not 2100?

[vapid gorge]

don't need that much power?

[last root]

Ive never reached nuclear yet but looking at the plan Im going to say it would needlessly add complexity to the system for the return you would get on power. Most likely the amount power this would generate is more than sufficient for most needs.

[frosty owl]

At the moment, even the most extreme production plans hardly need more than half of the power nuclear can provide.

[fierce ruin]

challenge accepted 😉

[frosty owl]

I can already hear your hardware sobbing.

[true junco]

Yeah. I dont even plan to build nuclear like that anyways.

Going to break it down into a comfortable minimum. Build that. Run it. Duplicate as needed.

[oblique hollow]

i still only have 1 nuke on my main save

[ashen mauve]

I don’t wanna worry about power

[ashen mauve]

I mean yes, but I also wanna make like 50 nuclear pasta a min

[oblique hollow]

i dont think thats possible

thats actually beyond the resource limit

[ashen mauve]

Oh wait, it’s around like 22 max

Imma go for like 10 then

[oblique hollow]

nvm the max is 60.125

[ashen mauve]

Wait 22 without any alt recipes, 60 with all of them

[oblique hollow]

120 Accelerators....

You will produce nothing but pasta

pasta will be your beginning and your end

unsurprisingly, copper is the cap

[fierce ruin]

is there a rough max optimal distance where trucks can be used before its better to use trains?

[marble token]

Not really. A train is always(?) faster, more scalable, and doesn't need fuel.

But trucks are much cheaper to build, you can have them drive fun routes, and are less slope limited.

[winter panther]

What point does it come where going by train is better than by conveyor belt?

I was asked that by someone and the best I could come up with was that at a certain distance of conveyor belt it’s just better to go for train

But it made me realise that I didn’t know the actual reasoning behind it

[agile talon]

1 train line is prolly simpler to build than like 300 parallel conveyors

[brittle kayak]

Not entirely sure where to ask a strictly SCIM related question but is there some way to ask SCIM to tell me how much of some specific item I can produce if I have X amount of raw material per minute available? Like, it doesn't matter how much other materials are required but this X is the limiting factor?

Case in point: I have 1,980 bauxite per minute available at a specific site. How many Aluminum Casings can I manufacture per minute?

[snow dove]

not sure about scim, but on satisfactory tools you can go to "items, input" and put how much ore input you have

[brittle kayak]

Let's see

[snow dove]

you can also input items you're already producing

[brittle kayak]

Ah yes, tools works perfectly for just the thing I was looking for.

[snow dove]

Glad to hear

[brittle kayak]

With the relevant alt recipes the amount of casings produced is 1:1 with the amount of bauxite available. Good to know.

[snow dove]

you can also deselect any recipes you don't have

[brittle kayak]

Ye, that's not an issue in this case because I have all that matter.

[dim spire]

SCIM's planner does the same thing. Set your inputs, tell it what you want to output. Eventually, it's gonna tell you that you need a miner added in.

[median heath]

In terms of throughput - never.

[median heath]

It isn't as much about distance as it is about how much you are moving.

[vapid gorge]

max nuclear is way more power than you can ever realistically use because your computer will melt first

[median heath]

Speed is not usually relevant as throughput is what matters.
Trains consume more fuel than trucks ever could hope to.
And in the cases where speed does matter, you don't want faster trains.

[ashen mauve]

I mean yes but no

I’ve already used 10x as much power as my friend and I really don’t wanna worry about power at all

[vapid gorge]

Suuuuure, but the amount full max nuclear produces is more than you can realistically use even if you use the whole map and over clock everything

And your computer will catch on fire before you get to that point

[median heath]

Max Nuke is 1.19 TW, for reference.

[vapid gorge]

And don't get me wrong - I'm building a max nuclear power plant too, but that's just cause I challenged myself to do a very localised factory for it. I absolutely know I won't get close to using it all

[marble token]

Clever. In that case, the changeover line would depend on stack size.

[vapid gorge]

just be aware of that if your goal is ot have 'plenty of power' you're going way overboard and wasting a lot of effort. If your goal is 'really big nuke plant' go for it

[median heath]

?

Stack sizes on trains have max throughput limits.
All of which are less than 1560.
Which means regardless of stack size, truck wins in terms of throughput potential.

[barren elm]

Yeah trains need some love, it'd be nice if they at least dynamically altered routes based on track signals like every other game with trains does

[median heath]

Trains are barely balanced as it is, they do not need love.

[barren elm]

I'd kill for "generic" train stops like factorio too, where a train stop can essentially say I need iron, and an iron train will come

[median heath]

And we dropping F bombs again 😁

[vapid gorge]

I would accept trains having dynamic pathing as long as train accidents just send thousands of items flying in every direction and deletes all previous saves so you have to manually pick up everything on every crash. nuclear waste just creates a permanent zone of death

[deft lichen]

Trains don't work like in other game so trains bad

[elfin nebula]

we will have 160 coal generators, 900 turbofuel generators and 200 uranium power plant
and some small coal start thing and burning a bit excess fuel in oil factories
we will surpass 650 gw
even high approximations show we could barely surpass using 300, so ist just for the fun

[median heath]

Too many people genuinely hold this opinion.

[barren elm]

Nah, I exclusively use trains

[vapid gorge]

oh yeah, I'm fairly certain only a handful of people actually end up using much more than 300gw

[elfin nebula]

never had other games with trains, so its fine. and i feel they work cool here

[elfin nebula]

with going full plan of 60 assembly director, 60 magnetic field, 20 rockets and 10 pasta per minute we come to like 200 to 250 with everything around it

[median heath]

Average player can probably run their entire setup on the 60 GW Diluted setup from the Islands.

[vapid gorge]

yeah, look, assuming they optimize the game enough and I spend 2-3 years on my stupid plan, I'm only coming close to using max uranium rods because of mass overclocking. nevermind plutonium

though tbh I'm VERY tempted to just build a 1800 HMF pm factory instead xD

[elfin nebula]

our 135 gw turbofuel is actually quite close until getting to uranium plant.
since we dont isolate it, so we train stuff from other factories in, meaning we have most of the large ones before able to start with uranium

because its like this

[vapid gorge]

just build some big batteries to boot strap your nukes 😄

[elfin nebula]

dependent on many factories

no i mean the needed material

[vapid gorge]

ah see I'm making all that onto their own grid and personal factories

The plutonium factory even has the dedicated Battery Facility that will fuel all drones

so drones will continue to be supported as long as the nuclear system is running

[elfin nebula]

but yeah, its possible that we run out of power before able to start the uranium factory, so need to battery backup probably

[vapid gorge]

I still plan on having a battery facility somewhere to kick start in case of disaster

[elfin nebula]

the amount of different stuff the power plant needs was just too much that building a dedicated factory just for nuclear felt good

so all factories doing that little amount more and we ship it in

[elfin nebula]

yeah, we already know, where

a bunker entrance at northern nitrogen waterfall

so all underground

the left river waterfall leads below the map in vanilla

and glitchless

and we want a real underground facility

[vapid gorge]

I'd be a little worried about that area. I'm expecting more terrain changes and underground changes there

There's a bunch of 'walls' that look half assed around there that are generally pretty good signs of being place holders for stuff

[elfin nebula]

well, it will be mostly just batteries, so when they change it, they stay there

[vapid gorge]

Fair enough 🙂

[elfin nebula]

no need to reach them ever again actually

also maybe we build that deep anough to be rather save and install an emergency access that clips us there

should be quite save i think

at least for the next time

[vapid gorge]

don't want catwalks through a dark cavernous enclosure to inpect the system? tsk tsk

[elfin nebula]

well, we will do that. but it wouldnt be that much loss if we cant get there anymore.
but i dont think it will happen before 1.0 and thats a full reset anyway

[vapid gorge]

by full reset you mean 'use mod to keep old school recipes' right? xD

[elfin nebula]

i mean restart from scratch

[vapid gorge]

I won't get anywhere near to finishing before 1.0. I'd be surprised if it's much more than a year off

[elfin nebula]

hm, we are at 200 hours a month, atm, sounds promising

also with two players, so added together its more like 300

[vapid gorge]

that's a lot of hours per month xD

[elfin nebula]

if we keep that, could be possible to run into unplayable before u9 even hits

[vapid gorge]

@glossy timber what's your next project? might impact which recipe you take

[vapid gorge]

I suppose it depends how designy you get. That can be a lot of hours on aesthetics w/o adding so much to clog up your computer

[wind spade]

also @glossy timber read #math-and-meta message

[elfin nebula]

well, we try but im not sure if we are able to.
though i like the two small factories i designed. the small copper sheets got way more fancy than expected

[vapid gorge]

Just depends what you're enjoying about the game right? nothing forces you to make it any sort of pretty

[elfin nebula]

well, i want it pretty, but im bad with that

[vapid gorge]

Practice and planning.
Often a lot of nice looking stuff means not symetrical structure lay out so some things I find hand is build the floor space I intend to use and make place holder machines to see what I can work with.

Sometimes that'll mean I'll change the floor plan up or change other things.

Keep notes where you want pipes and belts going between sections because that'll be a big impact how you design walls and paths

[elfin nebula]

with my copper sheets i learned, that i like wavy ceilings

[vapid gorge]

nice 😄

[elfin nebula]

sadly have none from the lower side, but you get the idea

the right side is rounded with different slopes

and left one has an opening because below that are smelters, so natural cooling with open ceiling

also what i learned there: colors have quite the impact

colored it full copper color, was like this before. i think it was quite worse

the copper concrete has quite a charme

im unsure how i deal with my turbofuel, i think i let it open actually, irl refineries are quite open as well

and i have no idea how my coop will design his factory here

its not walkable in any way anyway

so i guess just solid blocks

[vapid gorge]

My only general suggestion is to maybe break up different sections of a factory into more buildings. You can use that to have more than 1 shape, structures sitting at different angles/levels

I've got two tower I'm working on right now. One tower has a few different processes that need qw for dif things and has bridges with belting moving things as needed between the two

[elfin nebula]

well, that are two buildings with this bridge.
i want to talk to him to remove that scuffed belt thing on the ground to attach it to the bridge as well

[vapid gorge]

Oh I more meant buildings right next to each other. Creates different lines having structures like that

[elfin nebula]

im still procrastinating our first train network with stardew valley

also because its the first part of our later base, so im afraid of doing something bad

maybe some advice on that could be good

[vapid gorge]

what are you trying to do?

[elfin nebula]

ima switch to the other channel for that

[idle shoal]

Is the steel screw alt recipe worth it

or is it one of the rare use case recipes

[elfin nebula]

its the only screw recipe i use. though just once as well.
screws arent that often anyway

really helpful here. small footprint.
getting tons of screws out of nowhere
best to ship

[median heath]

Worth is subjective to the individual.
What are you contrasting it against?

[idle shoal]

the normal recipe

[median heath]

Normal recipe at 100% is 40 Screw/min.
Steel at 100% is 260.

So what you gain from it is a massive amount of space saved.

[elfin nebula]

the normal is always bad except you have steel rods

[median heath]

If that is worth it to you, then it is worth it.
If not 🤷‍♂️

Worth is subjective to the individual.

[elfin nebula]

but yeah, the difference is about the size

screws can take many buildings quite fast

[true junco]

Im a hugefan of steel screws now. Steel rods into default screws is only a little more resource efficient. But takes too much space imo.

Steel screws out produces any other recipies' consumption of screws which makes them essential to making certain modules imo.

[median heath]

Let me sarcastically proclaim love for Cast just to summon greeny

[true junco]

Cast has its place. Uses less space and power during the phase it is first available when power is actually a bit of an issue.

[median heath]

"If power is a factor..."

[frosty owl]

Steel screws is love. Bolted recipes are life.

[elfin nebula]

cast screws combines rods and screws in one step. so is a direct upgrade when you would do normal rods anyway.
so when you dont use steel screws nor steel rods, its the better recipe

[elfin nebula]

steel screws yes, bolted stuff is ew

[median heath]

Bolted Frame is actually good.

[elfin nebula]

nah

normal one is most time better

[median heath]

I will take my 3x less Assemblers 🤷‍♂️

Especially with my Bolted Loop BP 😁

[wind spade]

given recipes are subjective, you can love whatever you want 😛 the issue is if you say "cast = best" 😛

[fair fossil]

how is turbo fuel better than normal fuel in generators?

[elfin nebula]

burns slower/longer

[fair fossil]

hmmmm... well... i got a ton of compacted coal already >_> lol.... how can i integrate that directly into my current fuel plant? just put the compacted coal refineries in just after the buffer(currently filled) that goes into the train?

[elfin nebula]

the setup discription is way too vague

[wind spade]

has more energy, so lasts longer

however personally I'd recommend skipping turbofuel for nuclear

[elfin nebula]

would still do it for the fun

[fair fossil]

haven't even gotte nthere yet lol.... im still barely dabbling in aluminum lol

[marble token]

A truck has 48 stacks, and is limited to 1560/m at the truck stop, and limited to 1250 meters per minute.

A train car has 32 stacks, and is limited to 1560/m at the train stop, and limited to 2000 meters per minute.

So with a stack size 100, a truck maintains throughput at ~3 minutes, covering 3.8 km at max speed
A train maintains throughput at ~2 minutes, covering 4.1km at max speed.

Lower stack sizes mean more distance, larger stacks mean shorter distance.

[median heath]

A train car has 32 stacks, and is limited to 1560/m at the train stop

This is incorrect.

And the entire conclusion is based on 1 truck vs. 1 train.
Whereas the reality of truck routes is:
Use 1 truck, if not getting the full throughput amount, add another truck. Continue until desired throughput is met.

Trains have hard limits on their max throughput at a specific optimal travel time. If you go beyond or below that time, your max throughput per car (which originally was already less than 1560) goes down even further.

@marble token

[marble token]

Why can you add more trucks but not more trains?

[median heath]

Because adding more trains when you're inside optimal throughput actually lowers throughput.
For the same reason platforms are incapable of reaching 1560/min throughput.

[marble token]

I'm just really not understanding how it's not possible to reach 1560/min with a platform. Just drop off 1560 items every minute, or in the case of 100 stack size, one wagon load every ~2i minutes

[median heath]

What happens during the loading/unloading animation?

[marble token]

12.5 seconds. So travel time is limited to 1:35 seconds. This is longer than the truck station delay

[median heath]

I asked "what happens" and your response is a measurement of time?

[marble token]

The crane picks up the goods from the train, for a period of 12.5 seconds

[median heath]

1. It's 27.08s
2. What happens to your throughput during that time?

[oblique hollow]

Hint: The station does something while loading or unloading

[marble token]

I don't see why it would change. Something to try out next time I play.

[oblique hollow]

To spell it out: throughput stops

[median heath]

It doesn't change. It is and always has been 27.08s.
And the answer is "nothing moves"
Which is why 1560/min is impossible.

[oblique hollow]

the stations does not accept or output items during stop

[median heath]

Because every trip there is a half-minute period where your throughput is 0, meaning it averages with the time spent at 1560 to make it less than 1560.

[oblique hollow]

thats 27.08 seconds of lost throughput, which you cannot just "make up again"

[marble token]

Ahhhh!!!! I never noticed/looked!

[median heath]

Trucks do not not have this lockout, so they will always beat trains in terms of max throughput per platform.

[oblique hollow]

Trucks have a bigger inventory and also a faster load unload time

because they move 120 stacks per min

[brittle kayak]

Also container chains have no lockouts!

[median heath]

Station still limited to 2 belts, but is actually capable of moving that amount.

[oblique hollow]

while a train station moves (however big a freight car is) in 27.08 seconds

[brittle kayak]

😂

[marble token]

Why have you forsaken me trains!!!

[median heath]

They are still good.

They just aren't the end-all, be-all of logistics.

[oblique hollow]

for comparison: this is an actual train vs truck situation, at equal throughput of 780/min
#math-and-meta message

infrastructure diff is enormous for equal throughput

[brittle kayak]

Also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZjAxB86KPc 😉

[marble token]

So the train to truck balancer I was building for the aesthetics of it will have an actual purpose then.

Tanks failed successfully

[brittle kayak]

I did a long version (300 foundations, or 2.4km) of that, and compared it against the train.

[waxen flame]

does anyone know whats wrong here, every conveyor is on mk2 and when i swap everything to mk1 sometimes it still doesnt work

like its not splitting for some of them

[snow dove]

u8?

[waxen flame]

oh wait nvm im stupid it wasnt actually connected for somer reason

nevermind i think i found the other issue, i think its because i have the splitters stacked on top of conveyor poles that its not working

i tried doing that to make it look more organized

[dim spire]

You probably snapped to the pole instead of the conveyor. Try pillars instead?

[waxen flame]

yeah i probably did that

[dim spire]

Or you could stack two mergers/splitters, delete the bottom one, connect the top one, THEN put in your conveyor stand.

[vague hedge]

guys how do i split 45 into 20 and 25?

[prisma flax]

It's not an answer but underclocking would work for a situation like this, right?

[wet zephyr]

What are you splitting and into what?

[vague hedge]

i want to make a small rotor factory

that needs 100 screws and 20 iron rods per min

i have a custom recipe that makes it so screws can be made 50 per min from 12.5 iron

and 20 rods need 20 iron

[wet zephyr]

the reasonable way is to just split it and let it even out with time, as if you have 45 split into two getting 22.5 each, the one only needing 20 will eventually overflow and can only take in 20 from that point on, and 25 will be given to the other one

o

ye it should still work

the "balancer approach" is a bit more convoluted and more work for a thing that evens out with time

you can essentially do a big of splitting and merging to reach the goal you want

For example, if you split 45 into tree, getting 15 in each, you then can split one of them into 3 again, which gives 5, and then feed in two of those into one of the 15s, and the other one into the last 15 to get 25 and 20

[vague hedge]

how about i split 45 into 9 and then merge 4 of those for 20 and 5 of those for 25

[wet zephyr]

Well yeah, but you don't need to split all of them into 5s really

if you split into 15s, and then split 1 of those furher into 5s, you can use those 5s to get 20 and 25 on the 15s that are left

[snow dove]

or just use one splitter and some patience

assuming the 20 isn’t storage or a sink

[vague hedge]

its all constructors

[wet zephyr]

yeah that was what I explained first

[vague hedge]

well actually i need 20 and 12.5 and 12.5 but idk if that changes anything

[wet zephyr]

they will even out with time so it really won't be an issue

but some ppl really like it perfectly balanced

not necessarily

[vague hedge]

i will use this

thanks

[wet zephyr]

no problem!

[vague hedge]

was worth creating that abomination

[dim spire]

Dear god.

[waxen flame]

are you able to get more hub parts to make more hubs

[fierce ruin]

no

[fierce ruin]

is that a load balancer?

[dim spire]

Do you mean "what is a load balancer?"

[fierce ruin]

lol ya,

[dim spire]

Load balancers are a series of splitters and mergers used to make sure machines are fed the exact amount/min they need.

[fierce ruin]

like that?

[dim spire]

Maybe? I can't tell you if it is or if it isn't without knowing what's going into it, what it's feeding, and such.

[fierce ruin]

balancing for bolted frames on 18 manufacturers, its a weird ratio like 1/18.666 so i figured out how to do it with using a mk1 belt and splitting it with mk5 to give me that yummy .05625 ratio,

[dim spire]

You just said it's balancing...so why are you asking if it's a load balancer?

[fierce ruin]

that balancer make sure use overflows from the three mk5 lines to make sure that all feed at the same speed, and the plates are throttled down like i mentioned for the ratio. sushi manifolding is tricky cuz you have to deal with the overflow

i was being sarcastic sorry

[waxen flame]

what is better to put in the tractor, a stack of biofuel or a stack of coal

nvm i figured it out

[wind spade]

one thing that is wrong is you're trying splitting pipes

[waxen flame]

its working, i dont know why its wrong

[wind spade]

because pipes don't work like belts

[snow dove]

cause pipe junctions don't split fluids, they just connect pipes

[wind spade]

pipes are bi-directional and fluids flow wherever they want

[snow dove]

wherever they want and can

[waxen flame]

well i mean its working

[snow dove]

it's not a good habit to get into

you can and should just manifold the fluids

[waxen flame]

what is manifolding them mean

[snow dove]

!wikisearch manifold

[brisk shore]

https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/index.php?search=manifold

[snow dove]

what's the one that shows the picture

like this

[waxen flame]

ah i get it i see

[snow dove]

a junction in front of each machine, then you hook them up in a line, feed from each end

[waxen flame]

yeah that would be better, ill prob change that once i get some more copper sheets

[wind spade]

(same thing can be done with belts)

[waxen flame]

well they dont have to be done with belts

but it would look a lot neater

[wind spade]

I'm just saying it works for both belts and pipes

[dim spire]

Don't have to, but damn are they simpler and generally smaller than load-balancing.

[waxen flame]

what load balancing

or more of what does it look like

[wind spade]

load balancing is what you've done (trying to split exact values)
manifold is what we recommended (row of splitters in front of machines)

both work essentially the same, manifolds are usually easier to build and take less space. Only disadvantage is that belt manifolds take some time to fill up, which can be avoided by pre-filling the machines with items

[waxen flame]

ah ok i get it

[dim spire]

I pre-load them the lazy way and let the machines run while I'm building the next thing. Takes out the manual loading.

[wind spade]

yeah, usually it's done loading by the time you've built next manifold

[waxen flame]

so would this work

[dim spire]

How many coal gens are you running? 8?

[waxen flame]

yeah

[dim spire]

Ok, so 3 water extractors?

[waxen flame]

yeah

those three long pipes are each water extractor

[dim spire]

That setup should work. Or you can merge the three lines into two and feed from each end. Watch your generators for a bit and see if any of them come up lacking water.

[oblique hollow]

for what its worth, this is good enough, no need to fiddle with the pipes

[marble token]

Life motto. It's not just good, it's good enough.

[swift robin]

yeah next time you need to make a coal plant you will have the experience needed to make it cleaner

the first build is always a nightmare of sensless piping and building placement lol

[vague hedge]

how do i split 80 into 30 30 10 10

[wind spade]

manifold

--S--S--S--S
  |  |  |  |

[vapid gorge]

there should be a bot response of this to any msg that contains 'how do I split'. It'd be right 90% of the time

[true junco]

Ive been saying for a while we could do well with a "conveyor" manual equivalent to the pipe one...

[elfin nebula]

since greeny was unable to answer it correctly
smart split any on an mk1 belt, overflow on a second one, you have 60 and 20 then, then nornal split each in two

[vague hedge]

i just used manifold and it works

[elfin nebula]

yeah, still was the wrong answer to the question

in case someone needs that.
smart splitting is a way when having these or similar numbers that fit on a specific belt

[vague hedge]

guys am i mentally ill?

im 100% sure conveyors used to be lvl1 30 lvl2 60 lvl3 120

but now its 60 120 270

was it always like this or did they change it?

[wind spade]

always like that

[vague hedge]

WHAT

omg

so ive been living in a delusion for my entire playtime of this game

[versed violet]

I think you mixed up the miners (on impure nodes) with belts.

[wind spade]

@glossy timber read #math-and-meta message regarding alt recipes 🙂

[vague hedge]

i might have

[grizzled citrus]

guys i might need some help on my power switches

im new to this game and im just trying to make everything nice and accessible

is anyone available to help me?

[dim spire]

Just ask, that's the way it works. If someone is around that has an answer, they'll answer.

Also, this isn't the channel for general questions. That's #satisfactory

Or create at thread in https://discord.com/channels/370472939054956546/1038092680493801533

[grizzled citrus]

thank u

[prisma kraken]

well, questions can spur topical discussion

[brittle kayak]

Gnnh, I'm kinda toying with the idea of dismantling most all of this and rebuilding almost from scratch because I've been gradually increasing the amounts of raw materials coming in and now, with the new figures, I could produce quite a bit more ACasings than I'm currently making. That's also partially thanks to the Cheap Silica alt recipe which I didn't have yet when I originally built this.

[dim spire]

This is the way. Embrace the suck of reconstruction.

[brittle kayak]

Haven't fully made up my mind yet but, knowing me, it's going to happen anyway because I just can't stand the thought that I'm manufacturing important stuff in a less than optimal way.

Also, not to rush into it, I'll need to see what I can spare like, the refineries making the alumina solution + scrap are going to stay, even if I'm going to fine tune the clocks, and probably also most of the water extractors can stay.

[wind spade]

another option is to never rebuild and never expand and just build new factories when you need some materials

[brittle kayak]

That's... really not an option. 😄

[wind spade]

it's my recommended approach 🤷‍♂️

[brittle kayak]

Unless the new factory is right next to the current one, and utilizes the overflow of each of the raw materials needed. Maybe then.

[wind spade]

no, each factory makes products from ores

[brittle kayak]

But that's just the thing, I can't just leave, say 130 bauxite unused and then just go tap a new node. No no no no no, I have to fully use up all of the resources before moving on to a new node. 🙂

[wind spade]

have want

[brittle kayak]

That's just me.

It's a "have to" alright because otherwise it would be constantly nagging at me at the back of my head.

[wind spade]

the whole map is unused, it doesn't matter where it lies unused 🙂

[brittle kayak]

That's a fair point... but these nodes are MINE. 😄

[brittle kayak]

Had to check. This site is currently getting (per minute):

• 2,580 bauxite (of which 2,280/min is currently in use)
• 1,500 coal
• 2,811 raw quartz (partially delivered by drones - this will change soon so that I'll turn the supplemental quartz into silica already at the node instead of here at the main site)
• 1,800 copper
• "infinite" water

...and I'm currently producing 1,706 aluminum casings per minute when I could be making 2,580/min (minus 30/min for battery production for the drones). That's only 66.1% of capacity. Unacceptable. (EDIT: maximum casing production fixed because I hadn't selected all alt recipes in the tool).

[prisma kraken]

switching to classic battery will give you more aluminum too

[brittle kayak]

Umm, how? Standard recipe uses up 1 aluminum casing per battery, where as the classic uses 7 ASheets for 4 batteries... and the casing has a 3:2 ratio (ingots to casings) where as the ASheet has 1:1 ratio.

Seems pretty equal to me. EDIT: Well, not really, actually. 100 ingots gives me 66.67 batteries on standard recipe, while with the classic recipe I only get 57.14 - if my math serves.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter; I'm fully okay with the 30/min casings "lost" to battery production.

[vapid gorge]

hmmm that doesn't really show the shape of the pipe system. also needs light xD

[fathom wadi]

no its just there is water below

[vapid gorge]

run it above like in one of the links I shared

[fathom wadi]

kinda cant build in an ocean

yeah i will have to

i mean it will ruin some of the asthetics but ya know the motto

efficiency first, asthetics second

[fathom wadi]

this is my current setu[

setup*

[vapid gorge]

well if you don't mind running pipes in the water it could still work

just put some foundations low enough in the water

[fathom wadi]

yeah its just a matter of getting in and building

cus u cant build and swim but i could do it

or i could run it accross the blue beam

[vapid gorge]

it looks like you'd only need it 2m in the water or something, and yo ucan walk through that

[vapid gorge]

that would also work

[fathom wadi]

i will try it in the water and if i cant i will do it above

[vapid gorge]

if you do it above I'd put the feeder input linking to the top.

[fathom wadi]

like merge it on the roof?

i think that would work

i just remembered how many cables i routed inside the foundations

[fathom wadi]

yeah ok i see

[vapid gorge]

or run it all on the roof. Fluids prefer doing down when possible you see

[fathom wadi]

yeah i will do it as you drew if i am gonna do it above but i think i can squeez it below

is there no pipeline roof support

[vapid gorge]

Just in general for simple reliable set up too - don't merge and split pipes. If you need X amount of fluid going somewhere? merge the right number of machines at the origin and send it off.

[vapid gorge]

I'm pretty certain you could put pipe supports upsidown?

[fathom wadi]

i dont think so

oh no u can nvm

u cant build a support on its own upside down

it has to be from placing a pipe

[vapid gorge]

that makes sense

they'll probably change that in the future

[fathom wadi]

ta da

i think it works

IMPROVEMENTS!

[vapid gorge]

turn off one of the machines in each system and wait until everything is flooded,then turn it back on, that's another way to deal with back flow

[fathom wadi]

i will do that after

i need to build 8 more of these loops...

gonna be up till like 3am

[vapid gorge]

I also recommend not merging and splitting your lines

[median heath]

I very much prefer the method I developed for doing this, but you have to make breaker rooms.

[vapid gorge]

So quick break down -

Pipe loops: in a single pipe manifold a machine could suck fluid out and the fluid further ahead might see the gap behind it and flow backwards if it's less empty. Thats back flow. A loop lets fluid come from the other direction so the back flow doesn't stutter production

Flooding: if you flood a system before turning it on 100% - full pipes AND full machines - it means there's no empty pockets in the pipes to create back flow.

[vapid gorge]

colour me curious

[fathom wadi]

bro ur like the pipe master how many hours do u have

cus like i thought i would know how to do pipes after 700h but clearly i dont

[median heath]

Flip the switch that turns on the Extraction section of the factory.
Let pipes fill.
Flip the switch that turns on the Refineries on and off for 5 second intervals 2 times then just leave it on.

[fathom wadi]

thats quit smart

[vapid gorge]

ah yeah that's an option if you want to do a bunch of circuits

essentially what I have on my fuel station

[vapid gorge]

I have too many hours https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/558721941410807812/1134442766152257536/unknown_91.png

[fathom wadi]

thats vert pretty icl

[median heath]

I remember when my hours count was less than 4 digits...

[vapid gorge]

that's the half finished version 🙂 and thanks!

[fathom wadi]

i can make good decor but my factories are still just different sized boxes together

like this fuel one is just a big box with 2 taller boxed either side for 360 fuel gens

[vapid gorge]

thick walls, and place different building at angles to each other. Also planning

[fathom wadi]

yeah i need to experiment more with angles

[vapid gorge]

oh it's nearly impossible to make fuel stations look good, they are too big

[fathom wadi]

i did a bit with my aluminium factory i had like a 45 degree lobby going thru the middle cus it had a really weird location (hanging off the arch that a pure bauxite node is in the rocky desert) but it wasnt much

[fathom wadi]

i mean mine doesnt look too bad

the decor isnt done yet on the outside but i will take some screenshots

[vapid gorge]

oh I believe you - it's just hard to make them better than 'not bad' , at least if the fuel station is any size. Like I'm talking 100+ gens

even 50+ is probably real hard

[fathom wadi]

yeah well this one is 460 gens

360*

if only the glass rendered from this far away...

would kill my pc tho

looks cool with glass renderred

im quite proud

unfinished roofs and second generator brick

i just realised the blenders look like loads of train stations

[vapid gorge]

yeah it's solid. It's just very hard to make interesting shapes with them because of their size and how much negative space they take up

[fathom wadi]

yeah again that is why i always go for big boxes lol

[vapid gorge]

the fuel gen 'problem' is why I used a mod called 'refined power' for my fuel set up. It breaks it down into very modular sub buildings

[fathom wadi]

i tried with a circular base in my single player but i made it too big for somethine with no machines and it got really laggy cus i used a bunch of signs

[vapid gorge]

must have been a LOT of signs to do that :\

[fathom wadi]

yeah i tried that mod a bit but i didnt get past t4 cus the friend i was playing with was annoying and had no clue what a number was

[fathom wadi]

mhm it was like the walls when small billboards

[vapid gorge]

I've had students like that xD

[fathom wadi]

yeah lol i can imagine

in my physics class (top set with a bunch of 15-16 year olds) and someone asked what an electron was lol

some people just dont get it

[vapid gorge]

I can do mental arithmetic and it took effort to learn how to show maths to people who cant

[fathom wadi]

yeah i have spent countless hours explaining how belt manifolds do work and they dont need to have overflow input to function to this guy on this save im on currently

took about 2 weeks for him to go from spagetti to less spagetti and manifolds

[vapid gorge]

ah look, some people pay more or less attention, and if you're not interested in what an electron is you'll forget

[fathom wadi]

yeah fair enough

[vapid gorge]

Yeah its super interesting to see the differences in how people's brains work in this game and in schools

[median heath]

( #off-topic-general ) 😉

[fathom wadi]

yeah sorry

altho it is still technicaly maths

[fathom wadi]

it surprises me alot of people i have found on this discord dont understand how to play at all and most of them just put machine into machine and dont even know that they say how much they make

[prisma flax]

they say?

[fathom wadi]

yeah the machines

are you questioning my word choice or the fact that they say the numbers in the machines

[vapid gorge]

People enjoy different parts of hte game. You don't HAVE to do the maths to get to the end

Hell, my starter bases are tidy but I just throw belts at things and don't care about smooth function

[fathom wadi]

yeah its just pretty hard to get to phase 3 without realising that this game involves numbers

like its fine to not use them much but like

people genuinly dont even know that stuff has timings

[vapid gorge]

Well if you're only moderately paying attention you can probably make stuff 80% efficient? that'll get you there

[prisma flax]

i was kidding with the fact that they say the numbers

[fathom wadi]

ah ok

[vapid gorge]

For example my last starter base brought in N gas by train - which is a terrible idea if you want full throughput. But I just wanted some. Got the job done

[fathom wadi]

yeah it works

[vapid gorge]

Now that I'm making permanent factories though Everything is clocked perfectly

[prisma flax]

@vapid gorgeyou're a teacher?

[fathom wadi]

but like its not gonna work having 600 copper /m on a mk4 belt into 1 constructor at 50% underclock like that is what one of my friends did

[vapid gorge]

yup! high school

[prisma flax]

:00000

[dim spire]

Ah, so you're a masochist then.

[fathom wadi]

you can tell lol he knows his shit

[prisma flax]

i love this place

[fathom wadi]

yeah the LFG section is full of idiots and the text chanels are full of super smart and helpful people

[vapid gorge]

year 9s are often a major pain 😛
But I'm currently mostly working in a school set up for kids who don't function well in the main system

[fathom wadi]

so glad im not in year 9 anymore

[vapid gorge]

I'm sure you're teachers are too 😛

[dim spire]

Bruh. You're a teacher. My eye is twitching.

[fathom wadi]

it was hell and my year group still act like they are in y9

[fathom wadi]

i dont think many of us improved tbh

i feel bad for my teachers

[dim spire]

Reread that. I'm sure you'll catch the irony of a -teacher- typing that.

[fathom wadi]

yeah i love teacher irony and jokes

[prisma flax]

YOU'RE A TEACHER TOO???? MAN

[vapid gorge]

oh I teach maths/physics, spelling is for suckers

[dim spire]

I've sent letters from school back with red pen all over them before.

[fathom wadi]

real i suck at spelling and english as a whole. my german friends speak it better than i do and im from the uk

i get 9s in maths and sciences and i barely scraped a 4 in english

[dim spire]

I blame the English language on the multiple invaders/inhabitants of its land of origin, combined with the pre-existing multiple linguistic structures there, combined with a fair dose of "thank you, we'll be having that" from other languages.

And then!....America happened.

[fathom wadi]

yeah its just you put every language in a blender and make a language soup

[median heath]

So... much... #off-topic-general

[fathom wadi]

like why is it i before e except after c with the exception of most words with i and e

[fathom wadi]

education... learning... school... maths!

its all related

[median heath]

.....................

[fathom wadi]

also does anyone here use pack utility mod

[median heath]

Ew.

[fathom wadi]

sorry

[dim spire]

Oh great, now you're gonna double piss him off.

[fathom wadi]

lol

[next pewter]

Talking about math:

is there a tool/method/table to see how many extractors you can place on a certain lake/pond ingame?

It seems i can only squeeze in so few, there might be better layouts/angles, but i'm sick of just trial and error.
As the hitboxes are rectangular (seen from above), placing parallel lines of extractors make most sense i guess.

Specifically: how many can you squeeze in at Maze canyon lake?

Or mybe easier to compare /discuss as its a simpler shape:
at a round lake,for example in titan forest,or crater lake.
Is there a formula for amount of squares as a function of radius/vertex length?

(Aka Gauss circle problem,appearently). But ideally extended to arbitrary die/container shapes...

⇛Could maybe use a planner tool to place them outside of the game? Does SCIM know feasible water extractor placement regions?

[median heath]

If you're finding you can squeeze in so few, it sounds like you have just been unlucky in how you're choosing your water sources. There are multiple huge lakes and 3 sides of the map are legit ocean.

[vapid gorge]

no tool for it, eye ball it, if there isn't enough space consider over clocking or finding a new lake

[next pewter]

Oki,tĥx,then i'll eyeball it.

@median heath i appreciate and accept your standpoint on this,but i do disagree.
Imho it IS a valdid aim (in a sandbox game) to try to maximize output of a limited resource,like the water a small lake. Ofc you (I)can haul in more from far away, but same can be said for most resources. Why utilising 100% of any machine, belt or station then,just put more?😉😈😁

Building centrally rather than on the outskirts has some benefits (smaller distances,aestetics). Plus i like the challenge!

[median heath]

Oh you're forcing central building, that explains.

[wind spade]

water is hardly limited

and picking a place with resources nearby is advised, so if you picked a place that has no water, that's mostly your own issue

[median heath]

☝️

But they are forcing a central location @wind spade, so building near water for the parts that need water isn't in that design.

[next pewter]

True. But its not a place w no water,just limited. So wanted to ask what amound would be available,w optimal extractor placement.

Yet it's ok,i'll figure it out. Just asking bc maybe some of you had experience in this. But appearently not,and water is considered a free/garbage resource.(which it indeed is,on a lake/sea)

[median heath]

Water very much is considered a free/unlimited resource.

[wind spade]

basically that, people don't bother optimising for something that you can find in infinte quantities if you just move a bit away the location you're at

[next pewter]

And my plant has rather limited water needs anyway (building alu casings, so only pure copper and water for baŭxite extraction )

True, or can pipe or roll in by train the surplu i need.

Nvr mind then.

Just asking if tools /knowhow existed. 😊

[oblique hollow]

All i can add to that is i managed to squeeze 7 extractors in both ponds each in grass fields, plus one extractor in that puddle near the sulfur node southeast

overclocking extractors is also a necessity for maximum yield from them

[next pewter]

Yes,ofc.300 m3/h each

[oblique hollow]

not 300 m3/min?

300/h would be 5/min xd

[dim spire]

Really slow-burning gens.

[fathom wadi]

@vapid gorge the pipes are still not working

im so confused

the machines arent backing up anymore but the pipes are still only one like 200/m

its like the HOR is just vanishing

[vapid gorge]

can you post some over head shots of the whole thing?

[fathom wadi]

uhhhh yeah idk how helpful they will be tho

should be 400/m and it goes to 500/m for like 3 seconds and then it just drops to 150 for ages

this is the refineries settings

there are 9 producing a total of 400/m

all the resin is sunk

all pipes go here and all are 400/m

[dim spire]

You have 9 pipes at 400 each?

[fathom wadi]

6 get merged into 4

[fathom wadi]

mhm

[vapid gorge]

well first off remove all valves

have you ever seen The Incredibles?

[fathom wadi]

not in ages dont remember much

[vapid gorge]

The costume lady that says 'no capes!' ? that's me but with valves

[fathom wadi]

ok

they are on 600 do they just cause random problems for no reason

i just put them to prevent backflow

[dim spire]

Could this be a "full pipes are happy pipes" situation?

[vapid gorge]

that's what loops and pre filling does

[fathom wadi]

okie

that helped now all 4 lines are at 600 mostly but sometimes they just give up and go to 300

[frosty owl]

I also strongly suggest to avoid using "short" pipe segments, as they can lead to flow issues.
Example of a short pipe segment: when placing a junction/valve on an existing pipe, if any of the resulting pipe segments is so short that you couldn't rebuild it if you dismantled it, that's likely a "short" segment

[fathom wadi]

might be because some blenders are full

[fathom wadi]

yeah most of my pipes are long

[vapid gorge]

turn off 1 of the consumers of fluid until every machine and pipe are completely full, might take a few min

[frosty owl]

"Most" is not good 😅
A single short segment can choke a whole pipeline, however long that is.
I can see quite a few short segments in the picture I'm replying to

[vapid gorge]

by 'short' he means very short though

like the space between the junctions and the valves 😛

[frosty owl]

So short that if you dismantle it you can't rebuild it (so shape matters too)

[dim spire]

There are 9 short segments in that pretty cluster of 9 pipes alone.

[fathom wadi]

yeah i removed the valves and lengthened the pipes into one segment

there are no like 2m pipes tho

[vapid gorge]

are those wall holes?

[fathom wadi]

yeah but they are just asthetic they arnt connected to them

[vapid gorge]

100% sure they are just cliped through then? good

continue with the flooding

after the devalving

[fathom wadi]

yeah all valves are gone and i will do the flooding

i will brb tho my dad wants me for smth

[frosty owl]

I think adding junctions (or using existing ones) leading to buffers can be a good way to check the flow along the pipeline.
Eg: pipe goes from junction A to D passing through B and C, A is the last merging point for fluid production, D tye last feed point for fluid consumers; you notice machines after D starving; you can pause the consumers and place buffers on the junctions and valves along the feed pipe to check the flow in different sections: block valve after junction B and make sure enough fluid/min is going into the buffer connected to B (the longer you observe, the more precise the measurement); if the flow is as expected, you can repeat that for junction C and so on until you find a place where the flow shows issues

[fathom wadi]

found more dumkb problems

pipe labeled is 600/m

and is split to 2 300 pipes

but the 300 pipes have 20 flow rate and 120 flow rate

and i have checked the 600 pipe is 600

[dim spire]

Junctions =/= splitters. Don't think in terms of belts.

[fathom wadi]

sorry yeah

but it stil should work

it cant just delete like 400/m to nowhere

[frosty owl]

Fluids (and items in general) don't disappear or appear randomly.
If something lacks somewhere, it's piling up somewhere else

[dim spire]

No, but part of your "split" needs to go vertically upward, yes?

[fathom wadi]

uhhh would that be an issue

do i need a pump

[dim spire]

If you don't have enough supporting headlift, it'll definitely be an issue.

[fathom wadi]

it should have headlift

there is a mk2 pump at the bottom of the second floor and it should be fine

i will add another for precaution

[dim spire]

How high are your floors?

[frosty owl]

I suggest the buffer approach to get the fluid running and find where exactly the pipework is choking

[fathom wadi]

refinery tall

[dim spire]

And the issue is located where, vertically in relation to that pump?

[fathom wadi]

but every other pipe seems to have enough headlift it might just be that virtical junction

the issue isnt that the top one isnt getting enough in fact the top is getting more than the bottom

but its just weird that 600 can go to a junction and the 2 other pipes can have 30 and 140

where did the other 430/m go

[dim spire]

Backward, probably.

[frosty owl]

If you had some buffers along the pipeline, you could see where the pipe stops delivering 600/min reliably

[dim spire]

Oh, wait. Are you using the junction to go from mk2 to mk1 pipes? Someone mentioned not mixing the two at some point...wonkiness for some reason.

[frosty owl]

Though, it's mandatory to mention that trying to use MK2 pipes at max capacity is particularly cumbersome

[fathom wadi]

nope all piper are mk2

[fathom wadi]

full pipes are happy pipes?

[dim spire]

Something about 597 vs 600, yeah?

[frosty owl]

"Full" referring to the fluid inside them, not the flowrate

[fathom wadi]

oh yeah ok

can someone just join mmy world and help cus im so confused

it just makes no sense

all the pipes should work they all have headlift all the machines are working at 100% eff and none of them are full and its just as if it is vanishing

[frosty owl]

Have you tried applying my suggestion?

[fathom wadi]

the biffer thingy

buffer*

[frosty owl]

Yes. It is mentioned a few times "up there"

[fathom wadi]

i will try it but i dont fully understand it

[frosty owl]

Which part is confusing?

[fathom wadi]

i will jsut reread it im sure i will understand

is it just to check flow

cus surely i can just click on the pipe

[frosty owl]

Feel free to ask clarifications. I believe that to be a useful "tool" to use for troubleshooting fluids

[fathom wadi]

so i turn off all machines on a row and then put a junction and take it to a buffer

[frosty owl]

Yes, but the pipe (and the pipework behind it) soon fills up. Adding a buffer (and making sure it's not full already!) you have a lot more time to observe the system at it's maximum "fluid drawing" stage.
Having machines to consume the fluid effectively has the same result, but complicates the observation as you have many junctions + machines to observe rather than a single buffer

[fathom wadi]

ok i will try it

[frosty owl]

If the throughput is very high, am industrial buffer or 2 small ones are best to give you a decent amount of time for observation before needing to be flushed

[fathom wadi]

k this is odd

it is now saying fill rate is arround 300

but before i places the buffer it was like 120 and most of the machines where starving

there must be like a throughput issue within the machine manifold

wait nvm it was a buffer issue

there was a lot of back flow

it was somehow getting like 3000/m and that confused me

is there a way to check what direction fluid is traveling in

cus it is now at 0/m down the line but like 400/m closer to the junction

[dim spire]

Not that I'm sure of.

[fathom wadi]

i think its fine now i might have fixed it

its just i fix one thing and i find another one and none of them make sense and i jsut rebuild random stuff and it sometimes fixes it

im going insane i dont think i have hated fluids this much ever before in this game

im flooding again now hopefully that helps too

omfh

omfg

i genuinly have no clue what is wrong i have done manifold loops with the HOR and it just still fills up

the pipe is like 20/m and all the refineries are just filling up

is there like a hire a pipe helper to just join and fix it

it just makes no sense at all

[frosty owl]

I can help in ~20 min

[fathom wadi]

ok

coolio

[frosty owl]

The rings on the pipes are the only indicators of flow direction

[fathom wadi]

how does that show direction

[frosty owl]

They expand and contract in a "wavy" order following the flow (how much and how fast they expand/contract shows how high the flow is)

[oblique hollow]

rings close together: pipe empty
rings far apart (and color is visible): pipe full
rings expand very little: small flow rate
rings expand a lot: BIG flow rate

[fathom wadi]

HOW CAN HALF THE MACHINES BE FULL AND THE PIPE DROPS TO 0 FLOW RATE WHY ARE THEY JUST GIVING UP

aughh

i hate pipes

[wind spade]

because fluids are magical different from belts

[fathom wadi]

they are odd

[wind spade]

loop the pipe manifold, prefill the pipe manifold, then run it. 99.9% cases no issues

[fathom wadi]

the manifold is looped and was prefilled...

still not working

[wind spade]

then issue is either at pipe capacity (you got not enough throughput capacity) or headlift

(or you built too complex system or did the math wrong)

[fathom wadi]

the maths are all correct i belive cus the numbers arnt too complicated and i did alot of planning and double dchecking

i will preflood the system again just to test if that works

[oblique hollow]

oh, 600 in a mk 2 pipe.... 💀

and it has bottomfeeding

yeah mk 2 just cant handle that and gives up

unfixable asides from just not pushing 600 through it there

[wind spade]

iirc mk2 with 600 works fine if downhill?

[oblique hollow]

yeah, but not in an manifold that feeds up

it just gets mercilessly interrupted

[fathom wadi]

it doesnt go up until it a junction

it is 600 and then splits into 300 and the 300 goes up

[wind spade]

@dense mulch read #math-and-meta message regarding alt recipes 🙂

[frosty owl]

Got it working. 99% efficiency assured, but we haven't observed long enough to tell if it's 100% all the time.

I was surprised by how well the pipes seemed to behave, tbh

[oblique hollow]

thats precisely the issue

mk 2 splitting into an upwards pipe

[frosty owl]

Yes. That's what we just got working.

Fixed a headlift issue first (vertical branch didn't have enough), added 2 valves at the pipe segments exiting the junction (fully open) to prevent backflow, and the pipe behind the junction showed a stable 600/min while the refineries were happily full (though there's some uncertanty about how the fluid moves exactly in each of the branches, compared to expectations, anyway not a problem once the system's primed)

[oblique hollow]

remember that valves dont fully prevent backflow

[frosty owl]

Worked well enough. Without, the pipe behind dropped from 600/min

[oblique hollow]

they prevent fluid from moving back, but they dont prevent pressure waves from going back through

[frosty owl]

Considering what I've just seen, I don't know what to make of this other than thinking that pressure waves don't matter in this instance...?

[oblique hollow]

mixed bag

can mess things up sometimes and sometimes not

[frosty owl]

... I feel like taking this as a win against pipe-flow's cumbersomness...

[frosty owl]

Are you sure the cases in which adding valves doesn't work aren't ones in which the valve splices the pipe in segments that are "too short" (thus the change in the pipeline could cause the issue)?

[oblique hollow]

shortness has nothing really to do with that from what i remember

althrough....

something about the total height does affect things

so maybe the valve just cuts it short enough so it can only build up a small pressure collumn

[frosty owl]

Not with "that" specifically, I was referring to how they can easily cause flow issues

[fathom wadi]

how would i make 3 belts from a train station split evenly into 4 belts

im currently using smart splitters with overflow but it is not super even

it doesnt really matter tbh it would just be better

[dim spire]

This was the first result I found on google....it looks like a nightmare. Manifolds forever. https://www.reddit.com/r/SatisfactoryGame/comments/i6ttpd/3_to_4_load_balancer/

[wind spade]

Design it so that you use what is on each belt 🙂

[fathom wadi]

well its from a train so its 780 for a bit and then nothing for a few seconds. total is 3 belts with 600 each and it needs to go to 4 belts with 450 each

[wind spade]

Have a buffer in front of the platform

[fathom wadi]

that doesnt look too bad its just each belt split and merged i guess

[wind spade]

And build 3 factories that each needs 600, no reason to go to 450

[fathom wadi]

well i just needed 40 blenders all using 45 sulphur and i made rows or 10

cus it works with all the other numbers

[wind spade]

Next time build based on available numbers on belts 🙂

And you can just do 3 manifolds and overflow each and merge them for 4th manifold

[fathom wadi]

yeah i try to i just have 3 miners this was the most convinient way i could do it based on other belts and pipes trust me this is the best way i could have done it

[wind spade]

Best way would be 3 sections, not 4 xD

[dim spire]

Greeny declared something best. Be afraid.

[fathom wadi]

yeah ik but all the other inputs worked best with 4 inputs so i just decided i would make a balancer for sulphur and not one for fuel, HOR and coke

i just need one balancer its not that deep

if i made it in 3 sections it would have been way worse

[wind spade]

And the 4 manifolds way I mentioned works the same (with your already built setup) and you don't need any balancing

[fathom wadi]

okie i will just keep it at that

i thought there was an issue with it cus the overflow merged line wasnt getting enough but mathmaticaly it makes sense

i think i have a thruput issue

how many trains should i have to get 1800 suphur each platform has 600 input and i have 3 trains on the network and its not able to handle it

but if i add a 4th train it is bottle necked cus of the fact that items are not transfered when docking

[summer flare]

Who wanted a 3 to 4 way load balance, you can do it with 5 splitters and 4 mergers.

That's if the 3 inputs are the same rate

[wind spade]

did you add buffers for loading and unloading?

[median heath]

This should only require 1 train unless the distance is extreme.

[fathom wadi]

i mean the distance is pretty far but i fixed it now

i had one belt going to a buffer per station and that made the buffers useless

i now have 2 ouputs per platform and it works fine

[vapid gorge]

You ever get it working @fathom wadi ?

[fathom wadi]

yeah i got some parts of it working but some pipes are still not working but i decided to take a break and finniosh it tomorrow

vencam (chaotic sushi eater) helped me

[vapid gorge]

going to bed?

[fathom wadi]

nah im playing some party style games with friends

playing bopl battle demo rn its funny

[vapid gorge]

ahhh right, well if you're using u7 I was going to offer to drop into your save game and go through it. It's almost certainly an easy fix

[fathom wadi]

yeah i can send that rn if u want

it has a few mods i can send u the mod file too if u really want to check it out

i will send both in dms

[vapid gorge]

just list the mods in the dm, I'll sort out if I actually need to install them

[fathom wadi]

ok will do

[frosty owl]

We didn't make any sushi though

[vapid gorge]

oh no 😛

[sleek garden]

guys I can't get exact 100% efficiency

is it better to get 99% or 101%?

asking as machine sometimes tend to turn off for an extra moment if they run out of materials to work with

[frosty owl]

"Efficiency" is different from "clock" and cannot go higher than 100%
What level of efficiency is satisfactory to you, is up to you to decide in your own game ^^
If the inefficiency bothers you and you can't figure it out, describe the issue so we can help you solve it.

[sleek garden]

machine prior creates 40ml or fuel per minute

machine that drinks fuel can either be 40.005 or 39.997 (I think)

which one is more efficient?

[winter panther]

I mean, surely the left one since the machines are constantly on?

Meaning no startup energy is needed?

[sleek garden]

left one meaning 39.997 then

I didn't even know startup energy was a thing

[winter panther]

What? The only left one is 40.005

[sleek garden]

why would 40.005 need no startup energy though?

eventually that 40 runs short, no?

[winter panther]

Well, if I remember correctly machines need a jump in power to startup, no?

Then they calm down on the power grid

[sleek garden]

I have absolutely no clue

[winter panther]

Well, isn't that the point of it to not run short?

Hence why I suggested that and not the other option

[sleek garden]

wait, no I don't understand

ok, if the output is 40 and the input is 40.005

at some point that .005 will be enough for the machine to skip a cycle and require startup again

[winter panther]

So you're saying rare startups are worse than frequent startups ... ?

[sleek garden]

while with the 39.997 option that shouldn't happen, that's why I was confused about what u said

[sleek garden]

why would 39.997 require startups though

[frosty owl]

If you have the machines consume less than aviable, none of them will ever stop (which is inefficient), except the ones making fluid if you don't deal with the excess.
If the machines consume more fluid than you produce, the producer won't ever back up but the consumers will starve every now and then

[sleek garden]

so 39.997, right?

[winter panther]

I'm confused, how is your machine creating that off of a number?

To even begin with?

[sleek garden]

overclocked turbofuel receipe

[winter panther]

Standard recipe?

[abstract moss]

any idea why my MW jumped so high?

[frosty owl]

30/min standard output, likely attempting to clock it at 4/3 the standard which incurs in precision limits