#math-and-meta

1 messages · Page 65 of 1

bleak coral
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that's a bold statement, considering batteries are required for drones, an entire logisticical method, and turbofuel just saves on oil by spending coal and sulfur

vapid gorge
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Sev just doesn't think turbo fuel can be fun xD

thick plank
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more then other alt recepies. For example the 15/min reinforced plate recepie

median heath
vapid gorge
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Classic Turbo Batteries when?

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Eh, I dont' think you can quantify the extra effort from diluted fuel to turbo enough to go 'it's not worth it'

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too subjective

median heath
thick plank
wind spade
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max amount of power available is already more than you can ever use, even if you completely skip turbofuel

bleak coral
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yeah power is hardly sparse

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and oil is nothing compared to nuclear for map available power, which isn't even a realistic thing you can run into

wind spade
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processing whole map into maxed sink points (unrealistical build given FPS issues you'll have at the end) eats only ~600 GW, which is easily achievable by nuclear alone (even without burning plutonium)

thick plank
median heath
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My statement is:

Some recepeis are in general more usefull then others

You cannot objectively say this.

wind spade
#

usefulness is subjective
some recipes are more used than others
doesn't make them better or more useful

median heath
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Some recipes are more useful to you than others, yes.

thick plank
bleak coral
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I doubt that

wind spade
bleak coral
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if you're doing that much power and that much building, it's weird you're not on nuclear

vapid gorge
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depends what you mean by 'max out the map' then I think

thick plank
# bleak coral I doubt that

this is my current power and i do not have all the nuclear unlocked and a giant production of mine isnt online cause of power. Only the spire coast oil isnt used for power so far and we are using turbofuel

image.png
bleak coral
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that's not anywhere close to max oil power

wind spade
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max fuel power without turbo is 390 GW, you're not even 1/10th there

median heath
#

21.753 GW Consumption...
So... barely more than 1 pure oil node with just Diluted.

bleak coral
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I'm running 21GW on just a couple coal plants and one 450/m oil > HOR > diluted plant

thick plank
median heath
bleak coral
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If you're using everything but spire coast for 50GW, you did something wrong

thick plank
bleak coral
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50GW with diluted is just 2.5 pure nodes, you could do this in blue crater alone

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if you're doing turbofuel, you should be using barely more than a single pure node

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this is quickly turning from "how useful is turbofuel" to "I think you've setup your fuel wrong"

thick plank
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Were currently preparing a powerplant south of northern forest directly next to pink forest and im currently building a production in blue crater.

image.png
bleak coral
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I don't know what you want me to see from the map

thick plank
# median heath 3 *total* is "far more"?

3 pure nodes i definitly more.

Yes, you can supply your stuff with only dilluted fuel and dont necessarily need the turbofuel.

But turbofuel does not require much in terms of production and setup to increase your total power output, i hope you do see that

median heath
thick plank
median heath
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No, you cannot.

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It's subjective.

thick plank
median heath
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I'm done with this conversation.

wind spade
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"more used" doesn't mean "more useful"

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more used is just "more people prefer it"

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(which I don't think is true either, most of the people I see here skip turbofuel or at least don't use it much)

bleak coral
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I would bet good money on compacted coal getting used a lot by new players and people who don't frequent discord/reddit, who don't get deep enough in the math to work out the net power

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but compacted goal is garbage for power

thick plank
wind spade
bleak coral
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and it's important, telling players what are the "best" recipes discourages them from experimenting and finding their own personal favorites

median heath
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sigh +1 to the mute list.

thick plank
thick plank
bleak coral
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the power required for the assemblers eats enough of that boost that just going and getting more coal gets more power

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compacted coal for power only works out if it's sitting right next to the coal node you're already using for power, and you find that easier than going and finding another coal node

thick plank
bleak coral
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MW is MJ/s

thick plank
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This means that at a cost of 15MW you get 137.5MW, so a net win of 122.5

bleak coral
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that's not how that math works

thick plank
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*as long as my calculations are correct, I used 330 (MJ(compacted coal)-MJ(coal)/60 x 25

wind spade
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well, depends on what you're comparing

if you calculate "I have X ores", then ofc only coal is better than coal mixed with sulfur
if you calculate "does adding sulfur help", then compacted is "better"

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2 coal beat 1 coal + 1 sulfur
1 coal + 1 sulfur beat 1 coal

thick plank
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Im currently calculating the net win of power when using compacted coal against normal coal minus the ammount of pwoer required for the assemblers cause Lund said that because of the assemblers you have a net loss of power

wind spade
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lund is talking about the first case

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2 vs 1+1

bleak coral
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yes, if I was unclear it's 2 coal vs 1 coal + 1 sulfur, which the crux of my argument is that if the power is less and you have to setup assemblers, in most situations it's better to just go tap a second coal node than to make compacted coal

thick plank
wind spade
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it indeed helps if you don't assume people are on the same page

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especially in a channel full of math nerds

bleak coral
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assemblers run for 12 seconds at 15MW to make 5 compacted coal, so they spend 180 MJ to produce 3,150MJ of items for a net total of 2,970 MJ

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that's made out of 5 coal and 5 sulfur, 10 coal is worth a straight 3,000MJ

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so for the same effort of mining and moving material, coal wins

thick plank
bleak coral
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compacted coal only wins if getting more coal is too much of a bother

wind spade
bleak coral
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it still needs a buff with a description that sings it's praises to high heavens and at best you go through a bunch of effort to not go find more coal for just slightly less power

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it's bad design

thick plank
wind spade
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effort to not go find more coal
local availability is a thing 🤷‍♂️

bleak coral
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yeah, I'm just salty about it, pet peave of mine

thick plank
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but yeah, thats why im also msotly using the normal coal and not the compacted coal in my builds cause sulfur is jsut such a bother to actually get enough of

wind spade
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if there's a region with 3 coal nodes and one sulfur node, then maxing power includes compacted

bleak coral
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I'd just like it to actually be worth seeking out, rather than "oh hey I used all the coal, but there happens to be a sulfur node right here"

thick plank
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and now that we are talking about sulfur i realise that I made a huge waste in my last production line

bleak coral
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also feels like a noob trap, because if you don't do the energy math it looks like it's way better than it is

thick plank
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i used the pure sulfur mine in the swamp and thought it was normal so im right now producing twice as much sulfur then I actually need

wind spade
bleak coral
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you can pry steel rotor from my cold, dead hands, that thing will live in my motor factories forever 😛

thick plank
bleak coral
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unified stator/rotor manifolds forever

wind spade
bleak coral
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cast is fine, it gets outshone by other screw recipes and combos though

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kinda the same way I feel about heavy flexible vs heavy encased, heavy encased is so good it doesn't leave room for heavy flexible to do anything

wind spade
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basically depends what you're looking for:
saving space/power? steel screws
saving resources? steel rod + base screws

cast screws are just not "best" in any of the two most common goals (they don't save much space/power and don't save any resources)

the issue with them is that it's very easy for people to see their advantage, as there's no math needed, it just skips step directly

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other recipes are harder to figure out how they help

thick plank
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I mean i have a softspot for casted screws in the earlygame when you dont have the steal. There its jsut a straightup upgrade

frosty owl
wind spade
thick plank
bleak coral
wind spade
bleak coral
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also iron wire is a thing to combo with the stitched plates

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and stitched plates is slow enough that the iron wire speed doesn't really matter

thick plank
wind spade
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well but at least there are no traps like alternate plastic recipe in U2

bleak coral
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help I've been using nothing but biocoal for power, and there's no more forest left

median heath
thick plank
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Third opinion:
Water concrete is also great

wind spade
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opinion/fact:
all recipes are good if you like them or make use of them

thick plank
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opinion: I agree however cause im God what i mainly use msut be objectivly the best option and I really like every recepie based on water

median heath
balmy spear
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Some recipes are definitely amazing though, like being able to completely phase out Crystal Oscillators from production, an absolutely terrible part that's way too much of a pain to mass produce

wind spade
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well, again, that's good for you, but may not be good for others 🤷‍♂️

balmy spear
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No idea who would ever want to run 16 manufacturers to not have waste from a pure quartz node just for one part, but you do you lol

wind spade
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waste?

fallow kettle
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im using biocoal for my heavy nod frames, its too add 60 coal to my 300 normal node of coal i stole from the red forest

balmy spear
# wind spade waste?

I meant it as excess of raw quartz, waste in that sense, not literal as in byproducts or something

wind spade
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what's the problem with excess of raw quartz?

balmy spear
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If you are drilling them, might as well use them, but to turn one pure node into crystal oscillators, it's 16 manufacturers

wind spade
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16 manufacturers is nothing in the scale of this game

balmy spear
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Not like you need that much silica either, so it really ends up not getting used

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16 for one node, on top of the other 50 machines needed, all to make one part that's almost exclusively used in one recipe that has much cheaper options is though

wind spade
#

one recipe?

image.png
balmy spear
# wind spade **one** recipe?

Yes, one, outside of alternatives, while for those it's often a relatively bad option still, you make ONE per minute per manufacturer after all, manufacturer is ridiculously slow on some parts like this one for whatever reason

wind spade
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crystal computers are great, uranium fuel unit as well. Rigour motor is also decent

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and yes, for lategame production you need to build more 🙂 slowness of one machine is beaten by building multiple 🙂

balmy spear
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COs need reinforced plates, so it pretty much ends up almost the same cost for Rigour Motor to just use base recipe, not saying the alts suck, but for the most part they aren't worth it

balmy spear
wind spade
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diluted fuel can handle pretty much anything

balmy spear
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True, but you can only find so many hard drives during progression and without save scumming and taking 10 mins each time, good luck getting the recipes you want

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I mean, I'm in endgame and still can't get OC Supercomputers to min-max my production even with scumming:/

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Only recipe I'm missing to min-max my current stuff

wind spade
balmy spear
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You can only find so many without external apps though, which I prefer not to use, and I'm too busy factory building constantly because I keep finding good recipes that make me redo things lol

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Really wish the scanner had bigger range

wind spade
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radar towers can help you find them

balmy spear
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That involves having to reach up high for them to scan as wide as possible, then power them and then wait for the 5 or so scans they do

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At that point just grab jetpack with an inventory full of fuel and fly through the world scanning

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It is sad though that after scanning about half the drives in the game, I still don't have that one recipe that would finally perfect the factory

wind spade
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usually what you do is unlcok alts as soon as possible so that you keep the alt recipe pool small

balmy spear
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Want to min-max the current setup before I beef up the grid with nuclear (already have particle accelerator and all needed alts)

wind spade
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which helps you reduce the chance of not getting the recipe you want

deft lichen
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the radius is fixed no matter the elevation and the map is revealed instantly

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you have to keep them powered to keep showing the resource nodes on the map/weak signals

balmy spear
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Haven't tried them since update 5 because they were sucky so never bothered again, good to know

deft lichen
#

yeah they were hardly useful until then

balmy spear
#

Might go around setting some up when I play later

vapid gorge
median heath
balmy spear
median heath
#

Aluminum also has silica as byproduct

Not if you do it optimally...

deft lichen
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byproduct silica is only a fraction of what's needed

median heath
#

He does say "a third"

deft lichen
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ah misread that

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I assume by optimal you mean instant scrap?

median heath
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There are 2 optimal paths.

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As we've broken down multiple times per week.

wind spade
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depends what you call optimal 😛

median heath
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True.

balmy spear
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If doing it "optimally", then silica literally isn't even part of the line for aluminum, you remove it from both steps

median heath
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No...

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😄

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If "optimal" = maximizing conversion
You still use the base ingot recipe.

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Which I personally am slave to because bauxite is the single limiting resource on my world.

balmy spear
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Sloppy Alumina and then Pure Ingot

median heath
#

Those are not connected.

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Baux -> Scrap is stage one.

You either do Sloppy and ELECTRODE
Or you do Insant.

Completely separate, and having nothing to do with stage one at all is stage 2, where you pick either Pure Ingot or base Ingot recipe.

Sloppy does not connect to Pure.

balmy spear
#

Bauxite into Solution into Scrap into Ingot, pretty much how the line goes regardless of recipe, not sure how you can say that they are separate. Only way to change this is Instant that skips a step, but it's still a line

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Unless you mean it in the sense that it doesn't add up perfectly for machine throughput, that's solved with tweaking the speed

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Let's say pure Bauxite node with Mk.3, that's 480, then you use two+one underclocked refinery (or one+one overclocked) to get 576 Solution. Then you use another that many machines to turn it into Scrap (base recipe since Coal is more readily available next to Bauxite than Oil for Coke, but both work), then enough Smelters to turn it into Pure Ingots, no Silica involved

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In that sense of needing to tweak speeds on everything, I do admit it's extra headache, but meh

wind spade
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Sev's point is that for picking ingot recipe it's irrelevant which bauxite->scrap method you pick

balmy spear
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But if talking silica involved, if you can phase it out of the process entirely, then it's a non-issue

wind spade
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you can, but why do you want to?

balmy spear
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Personally I don't mind either way, but if you want to not have to deal with silica and only have it for nuclear instead, it's nice

wind spade
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the whole game is balanced about "more complex and more annoying setups yield more resources"

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it's a choice between simplicity and resource efficiency (in most cases)

balmy spear
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I know, don't worry, just no point in overcomplicating something that generally isn't important, even with 2 Bauxite nodes, you'll be covered for most of your alumina needs even with base recipes

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Unless of course you have some monster of a factory

wind spade
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given that everyone's goals are different, you can't really generalise like this

balmy spear
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I know, but personally, with 2 pure nodes, I have about 12 large containers of sheets and casings each despite using hundreds per minute, can't imagine running out lol

median heath
balmy spear
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True, but it's case-by-case I'd say, you for example mentioned you have little Bauxite available, while in my case I probably have a lot, that's probably what it will all depend on

median heath
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All alts except HOR are case-by-case. 🤷‍♂️

balmy spear
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Probably are, so leaving it at that

wind spade
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except including

cinder silo
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I'll get the experiments rolling once Ex is out 😄

main dirge
#

Pretty sure heavy encased frame makes a good exception

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Swapping screws for concrete (which it still uses less of bc less encased beams) and cheaper and faster in every other way is a pretty objective upgrade

wind spade
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It's not as you're swapping ingredients

main dirge
#

Like

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You're taking one ingredient out (screws) and reducing every single other ingredient, with the caveat that concrete is reduced only a single production step earlier

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The argument for logistics isn't even there as diverting concrete from encased beams (or just getting a nearby limestone mode if made elsewhere) is always going to be logistically simpler and lower footprint than setting up the production chain and transport logisitcs for screws

wind spade
heavy mountain
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Even less of a challenge with Steel Screw imo

median heath
#

Steel Screw + Flexible Frame JaceGasm

delicate chasm
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Huh. I never actually mathed it out. HEF actually is Just Better resource efficiency.
It's even better when limestone is the resource gating your HMF production, which I thought was the opposite of the case. I've been making default HMF around this normal limestone node because of never checking the numbers. D'oh! 🤦

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Heavy Encased Frame all alts enabled 10/min:
442.5 iron ore, 266.667 limestone, 133.889 crude oil, 151.296 water

HMF (HEF/FF disabled) 10/min:
693.75 iron ore, 277.776 limestone, 206.019 crude oil, 224.228 water

Petro-free HEF 10/min:
392.08 iron ore, 380 coal, 360 limestone, 524.046 water

Petro-free HMF 10/min:
670.085 iron ore, 591.667 coal, 375 limestone, 695.406 water

#

It always felt like a better recipe to use overall but I surely did think it ate more limestone than heavy modular frames itself.

median heath
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This is just Encased vs. Base right?

delicate chasm
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Yeah, no flexible frames comparison right at this moment.

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I checked with and without alts other than HEF; steel alts bring them closer but don't quite cover the gap in resource efficiency. Without steel rod or screws it's a rigged contest for sure.

jagged warren
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guys whats the most efficient way to get plastic?

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is it the standard 3 oil -> 2 plastic + 1 hor

median heath
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Recycled Loop

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1 Oil = 3 Plastic, no byproduct

jagged warren
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and how do u do that

hard magnet
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make rubber and fuel, then use the recycled rubber recipe

bleak coral
#

it's funny how all the most oil efficient recipes start with creating the product labeled "residue"

jagged warren
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i dont like computers

bleak coral
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careful, you're on one 😉

snow dove
jagged warren
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i dont like computers in satisfactory

bleak coral
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which part? there's lots of alts for computers and its components allowing for nice variation is recipes chains

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might be a better way you like more

jagged warren
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the one where i have to make a ton of stuff to make one computer

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i think ill use the caterium computer one

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thats the simplest one

bleak coral
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ah you might try caterium computer + caterium circuit board, cuts out everything but oil and caterium (and optionally iron or copper to supplement the quickwire production)

jagged warren
wind spade
wind spade
jagged warren
#

you still need some plastic/rubber in

bleak coral
#

residual rubber is more efficient than residual plastic

wind spade
#

(+ residual rubber)

wind spade
jagged warren
#

got u

wind spade
#

but you could just hand-feed it anyway

jagged warren
wind spade
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depends on how you build it

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if properly, then yes

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but you're making residual rubber anyway so you can use that

jagged warren
#

do u have some diagram of this properly built one

wind spade
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no

whole heron
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You have the option of a double-feedback loop or a double overflow loop or a number of things.

jagged warren
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got it

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modular factories looking less and less appealing to me

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i just feel like making a shit ton of plastic and rubber in one place and then shipping it everywhere else where there isnt oil

wind spade
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oil is like the only thing where centralisation makes sense to some degree imo

jagged warren
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there isnt a place where oil is near any caterium

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😤

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i would build it with trains except i need said computers to unlock those trains LOL

whole heron
#

Blue Crater has some Caterium and Copper in one spot.

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Along with water if you want the homeopathic recipes.

main dirge
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The point isn't that screws are hard anyway, it's that screws at all is harder than literally being free

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The concrete you switch it for is less than the concrete you save from encased beams, and transporting several hundred screws, even if for some insane reason you bulk produce elsewhere, is still more work than transporting concrete from either those encased beams or a limestone node at most a few hundred meters away

wind spade
#

and yet it's a different resource so players may have their preferences on what they want to deal with 🤷‍♂️

main dirge
#

... as someone making a base without copper, that argument's still pointless as the default recipe needs *more concrete*

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It's literally cutting out an ingredient for free, not one for another

wind spade
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you're switching ingredients. Their raw material cost may be irrelevant

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some people solve forwards and they may have tons of screws lying around ready to be used

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some people like screws so much they use it where they can

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some don't want to deal with alt recipes

main dirge
wind spade
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that's irrelevant for you

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some people don't care about resource consumption

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because they will never build that big so that they'll run out of something

main dirge
#

Ok? That doesn't change the fact it's objectively worse as a recipe

wind spade
#

it's not 🤷‍♂️

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it's different, an alternative

main dirge
#

Downgrade is the word

wind spade
#

you're still using things like "raw resource consumption" as a parameter to measure how good a recipe is. Since you're subjectively picking the parameters, it's no longer objective

wild radish
#

Some recipes waste resources but save power. I think these are great to use because my game lags to the point of unplayable long before I deplete the resources on the map.

bleak coral
#

if you're looking to build the minimum amount of stuff, you want fast recipes early on but switch to resource saving recipes later

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most of the fast recipes that need more resources for the more advanced parts undo themselves in that aspect on a macro scale because they need more machines to feed that single step

median heath
#

@silk lintel Who needs signs?

Screenshot20230214-14413300000.png
silk lintel
#

wtf many smiley faces c:

median heath
#

Moving storage.
Tells you what is in the container and also is very useful when you need only like 5 of something.

silk lintel
#

out of curiosity did you ever play Captain of Industry

median heath
#

No.

silk lintel
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figured it'd tickle both automation and survival itches

median heath
#

Oh noooo

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Sound people added death sounds to the spooders that... kinda make you feel slightly bad about killing them 😦

median heath
#

Did the MAM always kick you out of it when you finished a research?

Because I don't remember it doing that and this is annoying AF.

snow maple
median heath
#

It is kicking me all the way out of the MAM.

snow maple
#

no, that's new

median heath
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Very annoying.

snow maple
#

submit a bug report if you haven't already

median heath
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Done.

vapid gorge
main dirge
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Just because there's a choice doesn't mean it's a good one

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This is just turning into an argument of "some people only want to buy 500g of pasta instead of 10kg at once so they're both great! Charge $20 for both because neither is the better option 😊☺️😊" please don't continue tagging me

snow dove
#

it's subjective, because what is "best" depends on your goal

vapid gorge
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It's objectively subjective - you don't have the same values on the same resources as everyone else

Each location and each choice in what is being produced there will affect what resources are more valued - maybe it's better to use more iron than limestone in a location for someone.

Thus it's subjective. By definition.

vapid gorge
snow dove
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also some people may only ever use the 500g of pasta, and the rest of the 10kg would go to waste

vapid gorge
snow dove
#

ig

jagged warren
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do u need sulfur for nuclear

snow dove
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yes

jagged warren
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:/

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cuz i noticed theres a TINY amount of sulfur in this game

snow dove
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yep

jagged warren
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is a 600 crude oil -> turbofuel power plant overkill then?

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or will i have enough for nuclear

vapid gorge
snow dove
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i prefer the Diluted Fuel route, but it's up to you

jagged warren
snow dove
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20GW per 600 Oil

vapid gorge
snow dove
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using the HOR alt and either diluted fuel alt

jagged warren
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so 2x less power for removing the sulfur and coal needs

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hmm

snow dove
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also simplified

jagged warren
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more or less fuel gens though?

snow dove
#

two step vsi don't even know how many steps

whole heron
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I think you need 1:1 Sulfur:Uranium, correct me if I'm wrong.

jagged warren
snow dove
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it's 133.3... gens for the DF

whole heron
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Right, oops.

jagged warren
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no its alright

snow dove
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that produces 20GW and uses 600 Oil

jagged warren
#

if its only that then.. isnt there like 2000 ish uranium

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soo only 2000 ish sulfur

whole heron
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It's 2100. Not much.

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Oh, I forgot about the Sulfur that's used on the Plutonium Rods.

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I don't remember how much you need for that.

jagged warren
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yeah im looking at that

oblique hollow
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120 acid per 300/min waste

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thats 30 reactors

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about 1008 sulfur for max nukes recycling alone

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sooo you land at roughly 50% of all sulfur

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a fair price for that much power

fierce ruin
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Am i doing it right ? I am using Mk3 convoyers

image.png
bleak coral
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that will fully saturate the belt and match it exactly, yes

fierce ruin
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btw it's a mk2 miner , i really want to use it's full potential

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and I don't know which belt is meant for it with 3 power shards

flint sun
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Im assuming its there to stay consistent, all machines that can be overclocked have 3 shard slots

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And im pretty sure you can squeeze things out from an impure node

snow maple
fierce ruin
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I need to check the nodes if they are pure

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yes , it's a pure one (coal)

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Thanks guys , helps a lot

bleak coral
# fierce ruin btw it's a mk2 miner , i really want to use it's full potential

btw if you're concerned about efficiency of miners, the general rule of thumb for power efficiency is the intuitive answer: use up pure nodes, then normal, then impure. There's some complicated math for squeezing out a bit more by balancing them precisely, but it's a minor power savings over just following the easy rule. Of course this is assuming they're within the same distance and logistics isn't an issue, so more about usage of local nodes than doing stuff like shipping in by train, vehicle, or very long belts

fierce ruin
oblique notch
#

But also

Don't fret too much about purity. There are more than enough nodes that you can get all you need before you run into resource limits. And you're computer is likely to be a sideshow by then.

normal gate
#

Hi just trying to check my math. I got 100 residual fuel going to fuel generators. That comes up to 8.3 generators, right?

green berry
normal gate
supple belfry
#

You can either build 8 gens and overlock one to 130%, or build nine and under clock the ninth to 30%

glossy aspen
#

what nuclear recipes should I use to make the most power?

vapid gorge
#

if you look at the wiki and recipes infused and fuel unit alts use less uranium resources than the alt per output in exchange for other materials

#

but at the same time - the Fuel Unit recipe will likely be changed in SOME way before 1.0

bleak coral
#

but they're only going to change it with the big recipe rebalance, so not really worth worrying about since everything will get messed up anyway

deft lichen
#

do we know if the rebalance will come throughout U8?

fading urchin
#

I wouldn't expect it to

#

I think rebalance will come closer to launch and I feel like we're still a few patches out from that

bleak coral
#

We don't really know anything about it, other than it's coming and recipes aren't gonna change before it

#

Something about trying to minimize the number of updates that break factories

jolly badge
#

I genuinely love Daniel's Satisfactory Calculator, but its arrow routing code is a little goofy with more complex recipes and its also not the prettiest overall. I decided to combine it with FigJam, the whiteboarding section of Figma, and create some prettier flowcharts that are nicer to look at and far easier to follow! i hope you like the design :>

image.png
#

Arrow colour is currently in order of what stage that production line is, so it progresses through the rainbow as resources get changed more and more. I'm not entirely satisfied with this though, if anyone has suggestions as to what i could change the colouring methodology to i'd love to hear it :>

deft lichen
#

looks good, but I'd bump the contrast of the arrows against the background

#

greeny's calc shows the same values but only on hover, so you can't really take a screenshot

median heath
#

Tools is superior 🫡

deft lichen
#

both tools produce the exact same layouts

#

well, at least they used to in U3 times

median heath
#

U8 called. Wanted to talk to you about living in the past.

loud acorn
#

i need to turn

#

1080 raw iron,

#

360 raw copper

#

and 720 raw limestone

#

into as many HMfs as possible

wind spade
#

then do it

loud acorn
#

i am trying

wind spade
#

also, sounds like weird request... why don't you make just the amount of HMFs you need?

loud acorn
#

why does the calculator always add in oil

wind spade
#

which one?

loud acorn
#

SCIM

wind spade
#

no idea on that

#

in SFTools you'd just disable oil

loud acorn
#

now its adding wood

median heath
#

Tools is superior 🫡

loud acorn
#

as if id fucking want wood in my line

#

im gonna try sftools

#

okay my stupid prompt doesnt work for websites like this

#

Im gonna do it by hand

wind spade
loud acorn
#

also i forgot coal

ember fractal
#

Probably need it for steel, cuz HMF use steel pipes / beams

loud acorn
#

yp

terse roost
#

hi everyone! I need an advice! How much cooling systems per minute are enough for tier 8?

wind spade
next pewter
wind spade
next pewter
#

True, yiur advice boils down to the same, but this is a more practical, tangible step.

wind spade
#

well my advice is about how to figure out the "how much/min"
after you figure that, sure, you want to work backwards to figure out the raw resource needs

next pewter
#

Well, to me, with my first tier 8 playthrough, those two steps are synchronous, as i try to balance reasonable effort w production speed, but dont know beforehabd where the optimum tradoff lies

next pewter
#

I assume for now it will be at one manufacturer making cooling systems ⇛n heat sinks ⇛xyz raw inflow, in combination with if i have reasonable access to that many resources, else i underclock the manuf for now.

#

Or multiply for more

Screenshot_20230615-165408_Firefox.jpg
snow dove
#

what tool is that?

next pewter
snow dove
#

yeah don't use that

next pewter
#

Tree list.

snow dove
#

use satisfactory tools

next pewter
#

It works too, no? If needed by pruning branches or setting some side inputs?

snow dove
#

it's outdated with quite a few issues

next pewter
#

Oki, fair enough, esp for huge builds. Yet for a quic beginner ballpark estimate its still ok imho.

snow dove
#

it's not imo

#

use satisfactory tools

wind spade
#

@merry blaze simple

image.png
balmy spear
#

Finally unlocked Instant Plutonium Cell once I found out by accident earlier you could rescan drives and had accidentally not accepted it, so now I have basically every nuclear-related recipe, time to sit down with a calculator to get min-maxing, but any recommended options?

bleak coral
#

They all pretty much do the same thing except fertile uranium:
Uranium alts: trade more resources to make more U. Rods but less uranium
Plutonium alts: trade more resources to make more P. Rods but less uranium waste

Fertile is weird because it ends up making less power from the same amount of uranium if you're using the uranium alts because you end up with less uranium rods and less total waste, but is the opposite if you don't use those alts. End result is if you want the most power out of each piece of uranium, you don't use fertile and use the uranium alts. But it can also reduce certain resources partly because you end up making less uranium rods. So I'd say it's worth playing around with if you want, but I wouldn't expect much out of it.

balmy spear
#

I definitely don't want to use pellets, simply because particle accelator is annoying with the variable power and also bit too big to have many of, so will be using the non-fissile+casing for Plutonium Cells. I want things to be perfectly done to sink the rods at the end after converting waste, don't want to leave any waste around.

bleak coral
#

oh, no waste is easy, don't use any plutonium alts and use all the uranium alts

#

the only point of the plutonium alts is to make more plutonium rods, which if you aren't gonna use them for power you don't need them to do that

balmy spear
#

For non-fissile, should I just use the standard one with silica to have more uranium to pump into generators instead?

bleak coral
#

yes

balmy spear
#

So what's a good path to take from raw uranium to plutonium rods to sink without any bad leftovers?

#

Again, skipping pellets preferably

bleak coral
#

if you're trying to skip the particle accelerator to proccess the waste, you can't

balmy spear
#

You can't skip it at all?

bleak coral
#

yeah, it's either at the pellets step or the cell step

#

instant plut cells changes the machine

balmy spear
#

I just saw, my bad

#

Will use alt for encased plutonium

#

Which uses accelerator, but that's fine, just don't like pellet recipe

#

I'd rather funnel all my waste into non-fissile than have to split it up

bleak coral
#

you do you, but it is just a single splitter and then one side backs up and it'll balance itself out

#

the typical plut rod sink route doesn't use any alts to make plutonium rods, cause all of them decrease the amount of waste proccessed and increase all the other resources

#

so you might want to check the bauxite/aluminum needed to skip pellets before committing, that'd be the only concern

balmy spear
#

That's the thing, I want to avoid backups because of radiation radius, I'll have all the stuff near my base because I'm trying to get everything in one place and if the radius starts building up it might get annoying

#

I have absolutely no problems with aluminum, have about 30 giant boxes of each casings and sheets lol

#

If anything, I just sink it because I have nothing else to do with it until nuclear

bleak coral
#

I'm not actually sure which would be more radiation, not letting waste back up or making more rods, would be an interesting math problem to solve

balmy spear
#

Rods would be insta-sunk though

#

Tiny conveyor right into sink

bleak coral
#

so the cells would be the question, and they're 12x the radiation of the waste thinking_helmet

#

but that probably gets trumped with full stacks of waste

#

assuming cells aren't backing up

balmy spear
#

I'll definitely be making conveyors as tiny as possible making sure things don't back up, from what I remember from ages ago last time I did nuclear, when inside the machines, they don't produce radiation, has that changed?

bleak coral
#

not sure, I've done the planning and math for nuclear, haven't built one myself

balmy spear
#

I have done that twice, once I got started and mostly did it, but then couldn't play anymore because by that point I had so many machines all over the map the game would crash every couple mins

#

It's why I've reset

#

Was crashing faster than I could dismantle pretty much

bleak coral
#

dang, bad computer, huge save, or both?

balmy spear
#

5600XT, so not the computer's fault lol

#

Without machines down, game runs at ultra 120FPS, it's the machines causing the issues

bleak coral
#

I mean yeah, that's always the problem with building games

balmy spear
#

Said it before, but really wish we had Mk.2 Smelters and whatnot, halving the amount of machines needed

bleak coral
#

can't optimize away stuff I you don't know what the stuff is gonna be, gotta do your best to guess lol

balmy spear
#

Back to the drawing board I guess, I'll just work it out

bleak coral
#

do you do it in an excel sheet or you do use a calculator?

balmy spear
#

Calculator and notepad, that way I can just copy-paste it in the new Steam notepad and have it in-game to look at

#

Really like the new steam overlay features like the notes, now just wish it had calculator too

oblique hollow
#

thats the entire point of it

balmy spear
#

Which is a waste of power and you still need a ton of machines

oblique hollow
#

we dont get mk 2 stuff cause alt recipes and power shards exist

oblique hollow
#

its well worth the investment

#

overclocking an entire world reduces machine count by 2.5 times while only increasing power demand by 30% ish

balmy spear
#

A smelter goes from 4MW to 13.4MW, how is that 30%?

#

And you need HUNDREDS of them still

bleak coral
#

30% more compared to 2.5 machines

oblique hollow
#

it does the work of 2.5 smelters now

#

not 1

#

2.5 smelters, would need 10 MW

balmy spear
#

Still inefficient in endgame, having Mk.2 and then overclocking would be less taxing on performance

bleak coral
#

but yeah I wouldn't really consider it feasible unless cheating in shards, which with U8 can be done in game now

oblique hollow
#

questionable. but Mk 2 machines wont happen regardless

balmy spear
#

Also, about shards, you'll only have so many if not using AGS

oblique hollow
#

theres good old doggo farming

balmy spear
#

Other things that need a buff are manufacturers for example, usually not even making 2 of something per minute, even with overclock, that's 5 and you need hundreds if not thousands

oblique hollow
#

anyway, alts also come into play

balmy spear
#

Even with alts machines are slow

oblique hollow
#

depends on the recipe and machine

balmy spear
#

An example of a part you probably need dozens of per minute, see how slow it is? Even with overclock, it's still not even 10 per minute at best and then you also have to overclock all the machines before, and then you run out of shards because usually you'll probably only have 200 or so without spending hours just shard gathering, but you always want to prioritize generators

aa.png
#

And let's not even talk about how long it takes to get the space elevator stuff for the last stage

#

Point is, needing 30+ machines per resource node just tanks performance, having Mk.2 machines as the last milestone for people in endgame to not play at 5FPS would be nice

#

Anyways, that's besides the original point, back to planning out nuclear

wind spade
#

I mean the game is intentionally getting harder and more complicated over time

oblique hollow
#

every part has its own speed

#

screws come in the thousands, heavy frames at best in the tens or even hundreds if you are a masochist

#

if i want 60/min heavy frames, i pick heavy flexible and just overclock them all.
Literaly just 7 manufacturers

#

compared to 16

balmy spear
#

It's dozens, but let's say 60-70 for an endgame factory, that's still 7-8 full overclocked manufacturers and another 60 machines overclocked to provide the stuff, or about 200 machines total and goodbye performance, because that's still one part

oblique hollow
#

compared to 30 with the default recipe

snow dove
#

10 is plenty imo

balmy spear
#

Not in endgame and especially if going nuclear pasta for space elevator

snow dove
#

I mean 10 feeding to a storage

wind spade
#

making 10 HMF is more than enough

oblique hollow
#

you need a fixed number of pasta, after that you might aswell trash the entire production line

snow dove
#

i don’t mix factory lines

#

if it’s producing 10 hmf’s then it’s exclusively going to a storage room

#

if i need something that uses HMF’s like FMF’s, i make a new HMF line

#

which is exactly what i did in my world

balmy spear
#

10 per minute isn't enough when they are used in so many things, like fused frames

oblique hollow
#

also from what i remember, SAM ore is still not implemented, and its supposed to help with something according to the devs

snow dove
balmy spear
#

Putting them in a box is fine, but then you are trading automation for a ton of time going back and forth between boxes

wind spade
snow dove
#

uhm, no?

#

I just have it sitting in my storage room, if i need a restock for buildables, i just pop in and grab

#

i don’t take from my storage room for automation

balmy spear
#

Just how many things can you do that for though? Because that was ONE part of hundreds you need

oblique hollow
#

fused frames are used in exactly 2 of the final elevator parts
that means you only need 2000 of those frames to be done with that

next pewter
snow dove
#

there’s 32 non-consumable items worth storing

#

33 if you include screws (i don’t)

balmy spear
#

Screws just get phased out

oblique hollow
#

no need to store resin, coke, ore or coal

snow dove
#

not what i mean

balmy spear
#

Get enough alts and you never need screws

oblique hollow
#

and a looooot of other parts

next pewter
#

HMF were not in that list, right?

snow dove
#

My storage room is JUST for building stuff, not automation

#

if i need screws for something i’m producing, i make a new screw line, if i need HMF’s, i build a new HMF line

wind spade
balmy spear
#

I just use steel screws since they are way too good

snow dove
#

I build screws if i feel like using a recipe that utilizes screws

balmy spear
#

But if you hate screws, you can just phase them out

snow dove
oblique hollow
#

steel screw is the mk 5 of screw production

balmy spear
#

For me making 260 in one go just feels ncie

snow dove
#

for me being able to just use some iron ingots and one machine is nice

#

i don’t like making steel, idk why

#

i avoid it if i can

#

within reason

true junco
balmy spear
#

For steel, there are some that help, but I don't like it either, mostly because depending on the recipe, you are forced to under/overclock to get the pefect throughput without stalling or backing up

snow dove
snow dove
#

it’s basically compulsory

oblique hollow
#

steel is just ratio builds

balmy spear
#

If not using AGS, you can only have so many power shards without wasting 50 hours looking for slugs

snow dove
#

so build more machines

oblique hollow
#

its not a waste if i enjoyed the 50 hours of exploration

balmy spear
#

In 80 hours of normal play so far and a TON of exploring, I still only had about 250, then turned AGS on earlier during stream and got like 600 in 2 hours with flight mode, but legit getting them is a pain and I always prioritize generators

snow dove
#

plus you don’t need ags to spawn in items

#

you’ve been able to do it with scim for ages

oblique hollow
#

edit in 500000 shards in a container

balmy spear
#

I didn't spawn it in, just used flight to get around faster for high places and the increased range of picking up items helps

snow dove
#

oh

#

i mean if you’re gonna cheat to find em, might as well just spawn em in

balmy spear
#

I won't cheat in anything finite, I only spawned in anything crash sites asked for while exploring and rifle ammo, that's all

snow dove
#

to each their own ig

balmy spear
#

It's bad enough slugs respawned so I could get double what I had already, spawning them in is overkill and I just wanted to enjoy the view with flight

#

Goal was to get hard drives, ended up finding hundreds of slugs lol

#

Anyways, still figuring out the nuclear stuff here, just can't remember if the nodes I'm close to are normal or impure

oblique hollow
#

eh, we'll see what happens when they do the big rebalance

balmy spear
#

Only impure node is the one in the coral top, right?

snow dove
#

you can look on scim or use radio towers

oblique hollow
#

yes, the only impure uranium is the highest one

balmy spear
#

Uranium I mean

#

Alright, thanks

oblique hollow
#

its a big troll node

balmy spear
#

That's where I had my old factory, took forever to climb, had to make flying platforms and whatnot to pull the belts back to base, and all for an impure node lol

#

Are there any pure nodes or it's all normal besides that one?

oblique hollow
#

all normal (except that one)

#

no pure

snow dove
#

if it was pure you’d encounter the issue with mk3 miners with full overclock

balmy spear
#

Just verifying in case it was changed and fandom hadn't updated it

snow dove
#

oh there’s a new wiki now

oblique hollow
#

fandom wont get updated either jace_smile

snow dove
oblique hollow
#

it wont ever again

balmy spear
#

Is it better than fandom?

oblique hollow
#

yes

balmy spear
#

I just tend to use fandoms for most games, so not sure what others there are

oblique hollow
#

less ads

cinder silo
#

I didn't know there was a new wiki, it does explain why fandom was out of date.

oblique hollow
#

https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/wiki

Wiki

The official community-driven wiki and information source for Satisfactory, the FPS open-world factory building sim from Coffee Stain Studios, the makers of Goat Simulator and Sanctum! Conquer nature, build multi-story factories, and automate to satisfaction!

balmy spear
#

Thanks for the info, didn't know either, good to have found out

#

Fandom did update stuff for update 8, it's not that outdated, but still nice to know there's others

oblique hollow
#

the pages on fandom are narrow collumns

#

on wiki.gg, they actually can use full space now

cinder silo
balmy spear
#

Hate the side collumn being just ads, annoying

#

Will make the switch also, thanks

snow dove
#

i more so hate that fandom ads move the page

#

if they didn’t do that i wouldn’t mind them too much

#

like i’m trying to read, not battle with ads scrolling the page

balmy spear
#

Yeah, or if there's video ads, they follow you AND move the page

bleak coral
#

and I turned off my adblocker on it recently to see how bad it is, and they added autoplay ads in the middle of the page 0_o

oblique hollow
#

it was terrible on mobile

balmy spear
#

Adblock helps, but still jitters the page

oblique hollow
#

but afaik you can run around blocker-less on wiki.gg

bleak coral
#

fandom was what made me get an adblocker again, and then youtube cemented me keeping it on

#

wiki.gg is adless if you log in, and otherwise just has some non-intrusive banner ads

balmy spear
#

For me it was youtube and fandom together

cinder silo
#

I learned the hard way to nuke ads by default and revisit on a case by case basis, the old drive by downloads were scary.

balmy spear
#

Still see those sometimes, page loads and I get a random file trying to download itself

cinder silo
#

Noscript & Ublock not only blocked the adds, it also let me block the adblock-blockers.

bleak coral
#

youtube is funny, cause I used to watch it all the time on the app and on my tv, but apparently to "combat" ad blockers they started adding more unskippable ads, so I just stopped using my tv and the app and switched to ad-blocked browsers, so good job youtube I guess?

balmy spear
#

Not on fandom, but some sites do that

#

The little "x" closing adbox was fine, 5 second ads was the tipping point

#

Can't use youtube without adblock now

#

If only there was spotify adblock too:p

oblique hollow
#

blockify

balmy spear
#

I'm vibing to some good music and then ads come on

bleak coral
#

for me it was the TV and app versions inserting ads wherever they wanted regardless of what the creator wanted, so videos would get abruptly interrupted every 5-10 minutes

#

like mid-sentence even, it was aweful

balmy spear
#

You mean those yellow line thingies on the play bar? Those were BS honestly

#

Especially on slower connections where you'd buffer videos, ads reloading the video was annoying

bleak coral
#

yeah, but we've gotten way off topic now, which is my bad I started it lol

oblique hollow
#
  • feedback on new wiki is always welcome :)
vapid estuary
oblique hollow
#

yeah alt recipe analysis is still a WIP thing

#

we want to remove the weird weighted point (WP) math entirely

vapid estuary
#

Yeah I never got that

oblique hollow
#

something akin to the "Recipe Summaries" like you can find on a few pages will be used instead

#

so written text detailing what the recipe does, when it might be useful, benefits and downsides

bleak coral
#

the current implementation was an attempt at making it more objective, it removed a tiered recommendation list, but it overemphasized resource efficiency weighting resources based on rarity (thuse the "weighted points"), but also made some then meta decisions on some then popular recipes that weren't efficient for weighted resources

#

so better than what we had, but ultimatley flawed and it got tunnel-visioned

vapid estuary
#

Yeah, some opinionatedness is appropriate here

#

I found it a little odd Supercomputers are filed under MAM. I guess.. they are?

bleak coral
#

it's already opinionated, they're trying to remove away from that to just descriptive

cinder silo
#

Thing is with alts their weights will differ from person to person, the local materials or even factory & numbers balance, it is hard to objectively say if one is better than another.

oblique hollow
#

sooo technically yes

vapid estuary
#

IC

balmy spear
#

Trying to work out nuclear still, any good ideas for dealing with water byproduct? I don't want to loop it back in because that will eventually back up, but only other option can think of is packaging it. Any alternatives?

oblique hollow
cinder silo
#

I sent wastewater out to coal burners to keep the system bulletproof.

oblique hollow
#

the last blender takes the other 3's byproduct and it's own
tested it, works fine

vapid estuary
#

Will it eventually back up? Someone ;) wrote a very handy manual that explains how to recycle, giving priority to the recycled stuff.

bleak coral
#

wet concrete is the go to if you don't want to bother water loops

balmy spear
bleak coral
#

yeah there's a few solutions to have fluid loops without backup

balmy spear
#

I need everything to work consistently, no stopping and going

oblique hollow
#

it will have a bit of startup, as usual

#

but after that it is fine

cinder silo
bleak coral
#

or I guess really two lol, separate machines and a priority junction thing from the manual

vapid estuary
#

Dump the fresh water pipe into the top of the recycling pipe. There is no step 2

bleak coral
oblique hollow
#

the only important part is Keep fresh and recycled acid feeds seperate

balmy spear
#

Problem with wet concrete/iron/etc. I'm worried about is that if the concrete or whatever box backs up, then nuclear backs up and then generators don't get fuel

oblique hollow
balmy spear
#

Then I can just do the package+sink I was originally planning

#

Saves me the drill and whatnot

oblique hollow
#

that needs plastic, a lot more troublesome to get there

balmy spear
#

I have way too much of it

cinder silo
bleak coral
#

if you've got the spare plastic sure, wet concrete is just the easiest if you don't already have something lying around

balmy spear
#

I'm making like 300 plastic/rubber per minute and don't even use half

#

And that's from one facility, if I need more I have like 4 extra nodes to grab

oblique hollow
#

i mean you already need concrete anyway

wind spade
#

question is why are you making it then 😛

oblique hollow
#

for nuclear

bleak coral
#

I'm also pretty sure wet concrete is the most power efficient, cause it gobbles up tons and tons of water

cinder silo
#

You can make the wet concrete output resistant to collapse by having overflow>sink, so if something happens down the line you won't have the concrete backup and shut down your wastewater output.

balmy spear
#

That can work, thanks

oblique hollow
#

either way, the 3:1 blenders should work fine

#

if the system gets clogged with cells, it takes a while to unclog, but after that it should work fine again

cinder silo
#

Just remember, overflow> sink isn't the same as simply sinking the output, it just prevents the whole thing going bad if your use of the output gets messed up.

balmy spear
balmy spear
#

Decided for now to use Infused Uraniium Cells and standard Uranium Fuel Rods (avoiding COs and Beacons), if my math is right, that should be 48 Power Plants so that will be more than enough for a long time. Now to figure out the waste...

balmy spear
#

It's late and all the calculating is giving a me a headache, but just need someone to verify if I have this right, if I have 1200 waste, to turn it into pellets perfectly, I turn 900 into non-fissile with standard recipe, then I do the 1200 non-fissiles that gives me plus the other 300 waste into pellets perfectly since it's a 4:1 ratio, no? That 37.5/min really screws me up every time

vapid gorge
supple belfry
snow dove
#

your recycled acid, never connects to any pipes that have fresh acid in them

#

and vice versa

vapid gorge
balmy spear
#

And I have to empty out a buffer to make it get unstuck

#

Without buffers it would be even worse

balmy spear
vapid gorge
#

you have a fluid buffer in the system? weird
I have similar set up with feeding waste water from Alum back into the main feed and it works fine with no stutters

#

just curious why it's more of an issue with sulf

balmy spear
#

Always put buffers if possible, makes things so much better for non-loop setups, while giving you room for error and buying you a few minutes or even hours if you do loops. Buffers are always nice really, even for normal stuff, putting buffers can ensure the factory doesn't do a constant stop-go and instead works consistently

bleak coral
#

though we've previously established tho is just gonna sink excess water through packaging with spare polyemer resin

balmy spear
#

Yeah, underclocking extractors kinda helps, problem is that the second anything clogs up in the output (eg: too many casings with no room to go like I get every few hours), the entire thing gets ruined and you have to empty out pipes

bleak coral
#

not if you keep the machines separate, if recycled and fresh never touch they can't clog up because recycled will always be taken at the same rate it's made

#

and the fresh side can back up, since it's not blocking anything

balmy spear
#

I'm obviously talking about loops, if you keep things separate you won't have the issue

#

Really wish we could just "spill" water though, just have a pipe leading into a body of water, would solve the headache entirely

bleak coral
#

in the jargon used here, loopbacks going into separate machines are still considered a "looped" system, though I can see how they're not

balmy spear
#

When I hear loops for fluids I think returning the output back into input like many alumina setups, moving it to separate machines shouldn't count as loop

#

Mostly because there's no looping, they are connected in line

bleak coral
#

the pertinent thing that get's it grouped in with looping is its output is going back to its input, even if it's not going to all the inputs of the system at least some of the machines are feeding themselves in part

balmy spear
#

It's in line though, doesn't loop back to the same machine or bundle of machines, it goes to the next

bleak coral
#

oh maybe there's been a miscommunication, for loopbacks with separate machines it totally stays in the same process or goes back a step

#

an aluminum example with vanilla recipes:
given making 675 aluminum scrap you need 3.75 worth of refineries for alumina solution and 1.875 refineries for aluminum scrap
those scrap refineries make 225 water/m, and the alumina solution refineries need 675 water/min
instead of trying to balance the 225/m recycled water from the scrap step and the 450 water/m from water extractors, just don't mix them at all, have a set of 1.25 alumina solution machines taking exactly 225/m water and another set of 2.5 machines taking 450

#

now the recycled will never flood, but the process is totally partially feeding itself, even if the feeding itself part is isolated

oblique hollow
balmy spear
#

My point is that isn't loop, it's connected in a line

oblique hollow
#

Nuclear has 40/min acid at best recycled

balmy spear
#

Don't remind me, using alt just to skip having it as byproduct

#

I'll still need it for later stuff but saves me some headache

balmy spear
oblique hollow
#

besides, In Nuclear its single recipes that output and input the same fluid. In aluminum its 2 seperate recipes and thus 2 different machine groupings

wind spade
astral hornet
#

My aluminum production keeps backing up with water and I don't understand why. I've looked at other setups and I feel like I did everything right. I'm using the sloppy alumina/electrode alu scrap alternate recipes to produce 1200 alu scrap/minute.

So that's 3 refineries doing sloppy alumina, requiring 600 water/minute total and 4 refineries outputting 420 waste water/minute. I have 2 water extractors set to 90 water/minute feeding the loop with valves on both ends... The buffer still fills up and then everything backlogs on water...

20230616115207_1.jpg
#

Also, I've just realised the previous convo was about alu as well, so reading back up in case that has answers for me 😅

astral hornet
#

oh it's to offset the loop with 4 refineries set to 90/10 instead of 3 set to 100% all?

#

Is that the best/only solution? Can my setup not work?

vapid gorge
#

an actual buffer?
And get rid of the valve and put a pump right before it meets back with the fresh water

astral hornet
#

(the water extractors got torn down for a second 😅

vapid gorge
#

and delete the buffer

#

you absolutely don't want a buffer

balmy spear
astral hornet
wind spade
balmy spear
#

Same here, but I've noticed that sometimes the pipes kinda lose fluids, not much, but might end up mattering over dozens of hours, and using a buffer doesn't hurt whatsoever

wind spade
#

pipes don't lose fluids

balmy spear
#

Anyways, just spent like 2 or so hours converging two Uranium nodes in one place (the cave entrance outside that stupid to find one), so now I can double down literally on nuclear https://u6.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=oIfOGuO8RNQxLKlBbh1F

Satisfactory Tools

A collection of powerful tools for planning and building the perfect base. Calculate your production or consumption, browse items, buildings, and schematics and share your builds with others!

#

Going with this setup for now, have some good nodes around to work with also, just need to figure the waste too

#

Funnily enough that setup also exactly fits my current power grid overhead by about 400MW, so I'll be able to run it in one go rather than bit by bit as I set up generators, then use the generators to power the Plutonium stuff

astral hornet
#

I've remade the loop, I'll see if it backs up again...

20230616121053_1.jpg
#

I had it like that before but with a valve instead of the pump, I think. Is there a reason the pump makes a difference?

wind spade
#

valves are crap 😛

astral hornet
#

huh, interesting 😅

main dirge
#

Is there any way of doing prioritised belt mergers?

wind spade
#

apart from a few weird ones, no.
there's also never a need for such a contraption imo

balmy spear
main dirge
#

Could do with one bc I'm merging a fluid-input manifold and item-input manifold for space reasons, would prefer the fluid chain not to back up ever but it's in a production loop with the output so I can't sink anything either

#

Also merging the two manifolds allows them to reach max throughput without having to prime all the belts with items, otherwise the loop keeps them stuck below max capacity

#

Have an idea for one that's big and overcomplicated and only mostly works, might try later and show results

vapid gorge
oblique hollow
#

it has to be that kind of ratio or you have fluid issues, with either alumina clogging or waste water clogging

astral hornet
#

guess I'm doing the 90/10% thing and just add another refinery

next pewter
#

For small alu setups i do a loopback w the VIP junction (just at an upgoing bend on the fresh supply line). Seems to work for me, but probably your scale is bigger.

I think the flow problem might come from your longer horizontal priority line? Can't you connect both at the back, so the prio line is shorter (and lower?)

Screenshot_20230616-145812_Discord.jpg
thorn bane
#

i recommend this setup with a smart splitter for bauxite
that way you dont have to do math, just overbuild the refineries

unknown.png
thorn bane
# main dirge Could do with one bc I'm merging a fluid-input manifold and item-input manifold ...

4 splitters and 4 mergers connected like this
it makes it so 7 items are taken from left for each 1 item taken from the right
so aslong as your priority input isnt 8x bigger than your other input it works
in my example its 120 wet concrete prioritized over 120 supply concrete (so in this case even 2 splitters - 2 mergers would have worked)
if you have a case where your unprioritized flow is very little, for example 1% than you just need to increase the lane of splitter to log_2(1/0.01)=6.64 so 7 splitters

image.png
jolly canyon
#

The only place I use them functionally is when transporting fluids by train and want continuous fluid flow during dockings.

oblique hollow
thorn bane
#

or a smart splitter for bauxite
it fixes all the issues

oblique hollow
#

i tested what you sent a few months back, and whether it had a smart splitter for the bauxite or not played no role in the stability and "safety" of this build

thorn bane
#

well there have been people that did the loop back setup with correct math but still reported that it waterlocked
this just eliminates any possibility of it,
even if you screwed up your math

oblique hollow
#

if it waterlocked it wasnt correct math then

thorn bane
#

idk ive seen peoples builds that looked correct but just stopped working
but anyway the point is that you dont need to do math with this setup

#

also a tank is actually kinda nice for this setup
if theres water in it, for what ever reason, then the system will just slowly drain it until it is empty

9msDfO1.jpeg
oblique hollow
#

alternative is of course always to just... have an overflow valve to a coal generator

thorn bane
#

thats way more logistically complicated though

oblique hollow
#

no it isnt

#

you got water, you got coal

#

or you got water and coke

thorn bane
#

need to build the generators somewhere
and maybe you dont have enough coal/coke
compared to building 1 smart splitter

oblique hollow
#

its about the same cost for safety

thorn bane
#

idk i feel like the smart splitter is 100% safe
unless someone sees an error in my design

oblique hollow
#

only thing that can kill this is both water and alumina backing up

thorn bane
#

if they back up then the freshwater refinery wont get bauxite so there is no new water entering the system
and since the recycled loop is water negative, it would eventually go down

oblique hollow
#

im talking both pipes and machines being full

thorn bane
#

it sends it to the recycle refineries instead
and since they have water they will take 100% of it
so 0% gets to the freshwater refinery

#

it would be a problem if all refineries are full but if you have overbuild your recycle manifold (like you should) then you have machines that never operate unless theres more water in the system than there should be

oblique hollow
#

aight, though that means the person using this design has to be willing to accept idling machines

thorn bane
#

yes

#

they will eliminate excess water
if there isnt any then they will be idle yes

oblique hollow
# thorn bane yes

alternative new goofy method: something involving generators and priority power switches jace_smile

#

i wanna see it

thorn bane
#

hahaha
that sounds awesome

oblique hollow
#

just some coal gens running on like 25%

#

and if they get no water, a switch goes off, disabling a pump or something

#

downside to this:
"Group 1 has shut down!"
"Group 1 has shut down!"
"Group 1 has shut down!"

thorn bane
#

and the breaker noise every time

oblique hollow
#

hmm.... its possible to use this as an alert system

#

because afaik they dont reset

thorn bane
#

oooh interesting

oblique hollow
#

so possibly to use them as a safeguard in case the system DOES get logged

thorn bane
#

i wonder if you can use that as a safeguard for any system
like belt doesnt transmit items anymore -> warning

oblique hollow
#

Generator gens no more fuel > switch goes off

#

packaged fuel is a possibility

#

i might actually have to dig the fluid logic gates back up LMAO

thorn bane
#

hmmmmm
something like mixing a belt with concrete and then merging the fuel line with that left over concrete
belt is working -> no concrete -> fuel so power
belt isnt working -> concrete -> not enough fuel so shut down
yooooooo

oblique hollow
#

a use for sushi belts backing up? huzzah

thorn bane
#

I KNOW RIGHT?

oblique hollow
#

time to hop into the lab i guess

oblique hollow
#

ok so i found some way to use them as warnings now

#

you gotta have a refinery that triggers when water overflows into its pipe

#

that should sett off a switch connected to a generator that cannot support the refinery running

#

a packager should work too instead of a refinery, allows you to make a pack-unpack loop to use a lot of power

#

since the priority switch protects the generator side from shutting down, the generator now drains the pipes while the other machines are shut off

#

so you effectively get a warning "ey, theres too much water here, im draining it now"

thorn bane
#

i made the sushi blocking work
if the belt is missing then the belt to the factory gets filled with concrete
that gets split off to a coal gen
that coal gen is supplying 100MW using packaged water -> unpackege water
its getting supplied 20 coal/min normally to produce 100MW
20 is accomplished by splitting the belt 3 times and remerging so the belt throughput is 60/3 = 20
but if there is concrete on that mk1 belt then its less than 20/min so the system loses power -> circuit breaks
the concrete ofc gets split off at the end to not clog the coal gen
and that specific breaker has the name of the belt that just broke so you can see "this factory belt doesnt have items"

image.png
oblique hollow
#

the "excess water" warning works solidly.
only downside: Having to reset the switch and the machine that triggers the power overload

thorn bane
#

god i love satisfactory

oblique hollow
#

sooo in a way we now have bootleg logic systems

#

with system warnings

thorn bane
#

maybe something similar for "belt is full" and i might unironically use this for uranium waste -> plutonium, so i would know if my waste is backed up

oblique hollow
#

Finally, a proper warning system Kibitz can use when he - without a doubt - has another nuclear waste induced meltdown

thorn bane
#

i guess prio merge waste with coal and send coal to coal gen would work
if the waste is backed up then the coal gen wouldnt get coal and shut down

oblique hollow
#

yup

teal oasis
#

I just discovered that tapping space bar very fast can make you fly a bit higher than a continuous burst with the jetback (U7).

oblique hollow
#

yup

bleak coral
#

oh it's not just a bit higher, with a macro you can get like more than 2x as high

snow dove
#

so what you’re saying is, with a fast enough macro, i’ll have UNLIMITED POWER!

fierce ruin
#

can someone , calculate exactly how much I should put the numbers for water exctractors , so they don't eat much of my energy ?
I produce 900MW and they take 82MW in total miner which give 112MW in total , the orange field that goes down because I don't know how much I should give the miner to mine coal .
Thank you

image.png image.png image.png
#

water exctactors I gave them 90MW for the two coal gen

#

13.7*6 = 82

deft lichen
#

are you confusing MW and m³?

#

each generator's water consumption is listed in the bottom left

#

at 100% it's 45 m³, at 200% it's gonna be 90 m³

#

the coal consumption is also listed, 15/min at 100%, so 30/min at 200%

#

so 2*6*30=360/min

fierce ruin
#

I'm not confusing mw and m3 , i know m3 for liquids and mw for energy power , what I am asking , what's the numbers I should give to water exctractors so I don't have waste power energy

#

I use 75% of each water extractor

#

which take only 13.7mw

#

my question Is there a solution to take less of that power ?

bleak coral
#

yes, but also no
all you can do is match it to exact consumption which you're already doing
if you spread it out over more machines it'll lower the power since power consumption follows a non-linear equation and goes down faster than the production rate, but that becomes impractical really quickly with the number of machines you need

#

you're already doing this by using the 1:2 at 75% instead of 3:8 at 100%

oblique hollow
#

the benefit of trying to use more water extractors, but at lesser clockspeed, is outweighted by the space they take up

fierce ruin
#

this is new , so if i use more water exctractors , it will be beneficial ?

oblique hollow
#

minimally

#

the power you save is nothing major

#

it would be easier to simply run more coal generators

#

with the available water (and coal) you have

fierce ruin
#

sweet

#

Thank you very much guys

bleak coral
#

to expand on the point of it being minimally useful, the way the equation for power consumption and clock speed works is that you get less benefit per percentage lower the lower the clock speed
so for example going from 100 to 75 saves you more power than going from 75 to 50

fierce ruin
#

yes , this point I get

real moth
#

so we don't have linear over/underclocking for production buildings yet? I don't remember if they said if they we're committed to switching to linear over/underclocking.

oblique hollow
#

nah, they adjusted the exponent for normal production instead cause they felt the tradeoff is nice

#

just a bit too expensive, hence the exponent nerf

#

from.... whatever the heck it was to log2(2.5)

wind spade
#

1.6 to 1.32something idk

main dirge
#

Finally done and yeah it's almost a very nice clean 32GW

balmy spear
#

Still calculating nuclear stuff here, if I'm making 19.2 Uranium Rods per minute, would it be best to go 38 plants at 250% and then one at normal speed, hitting that perfectly or just 38 plants at 250% and use that 0.2 as insurance that slowly backs up the input to prevent stalling and maybe adding that last plant a lot later after every input of the plants backs up?

#

I will of course pre-load each generator with like 5 rods manually to be safe since I don't trust conveyors, but just don't want to ever bother with the system again once it's set up if possible

vapid gorge
true junco
#

I just told satisfactory tools to maximize fuel and rubber from 1800 crude oil and it told me to make 2100 turbofuel. Lmfao

bleak coral
#

how? that doesn't make any sense

#

share link?

deft lichen
vapid gorge
#

meh - it's not worth balancing out 50.4 rods into 0.2 lots. Just wear a suit

deft lichen
#

regardless of radiation, isn't the startup time like days long

vapid gorge
#

eh maybe? could always just hand feed stacks in.
Shouldn't be days though. How many rods in a stack? 50?

deft lichen
#

yeah 50

vapid gorge
#

I guess it'd take a while? but hand feeding or just chilling until it does generally isn't much of an issue.

#

woudln't be days surely though

deft lichen
vapid gorge
#

Hah, though I imagine it's a pretty steep curve where you'd get the majority of hte power a lot sooner

deft lichen
#

it's far better with overclocking than without

#

well NPP should always be overclocked

vapid gorge
#

eh - I'm not sure 'always' but it's convenient. However if you're building over water you can place the 2 power plants over a few water extractors in a fairly small footprint if you won't want to burn the shards. Because you'll still need that foot print for alllll the extractors you need anyway right? and unless you're SCIMing more shards into your inventor yyou won't be OCing all those extractors

deft lichen
#

I'd build it over the ocean, and have a setup like

NPP NPP NPP NPP
|  |  |  |  |  
+W  +W  +W  +W  
+W  +W  +W  +W  
+W  +W  +W  +W  
+W  +W  +W  +W  
+W  +W  +W  +W
vapid gorge
#

but that's a line of extractors with the NP on the end right?

deft lichen
#

yes

vapid gorge
#

see I'd rather avoid the massive foot print and how much space it takes up. More compact to build the NP over the extractors

deft lichen
#

ah, clever

#

yeah it depends how many total NPP you have

#

for my 8 NPP setup this would be perfectly fine, there's plenty of ocean to use up

vapid gorge
#

I think when I was fiddling with the idea you could use the space directly under the NP just for hte water. And that was before they reduced the water intake for the NPP

#

might even be able to do 4 WE with 2 floors of NPP above them to build quite tall with only minor WE OCing

#

haven't juggled the numbers though

daring sonnet
#

hi, I just finished a major setup with mk2 pipes running on 600m3. Every time I restart the game the pipes seem to empty themselves, Is there a way to work with that? it made the game unplayable for me

vapid gorge
#

U8?

daring sonnet
#

u7

vapid gorge
#

mods? MP? Server?

daring sonnet
#

no

vapid gorge
#

shouldn't be happening - Do a test.

Turn off some of the machines using the fluid and flood the system. Turning off a couple will do the trick pretty quickly.

Check the volume of a pipe, save, then reload

daring sonnet
#

yeah, I just did a test with everything topped up, I turned the game off and on and the pipes were apparently emptied

vapid gorge
#

try the same thing on another pipe system on another part of hte map and see if the same thing happens - that's absolutely bizare and never heard of something like this happening. Might be worth googling the bug

daring sonnet
#

yeah, I tested a simple plastic setup collecting oil from a buffer in another location and the issue repeats itself, in every reload the buffer loses a lot of liquid due to pipes emptying themselves, I mean, I think the pipes are emptying themselves, I cant see any other reason why

vapid gorge
#

unfilled buffers in systems can cause issues honestly. what is the buffer being used for?

daring sonnet
#

in the main system as a fuel tower

vapid gorge
#

are there pumps set so fluid can't flow back into it?

daring sonnet
#

no, they are free flowing

vapid gorge
#

look honestly I'd bet the issue is how you've set up the system rather than it being a load bug. u7 single player is really stable and mass deletion of fluid seems unlikely. Could always look through bug posts on the official site if anyone else has had this happen I guess though?

wind spade
#

That would work the same without buffer imo

daring sonnet
#

i looked around vaguely, and I found some mk2 bugs, but i couldnt find any reference to this issue specifically

wind spade
#

There is not a mk2 bug

vapid gorge
#

yeah that's a back flow management thing.

wind spade
#

Just mk2 pipes usually need a loop to work at full capacity

daring sonnet
#

you mean a loop in the whole system, because I bifurcate it in 2, top/bottom, so I should connect top and bottom at the end?

vapid gorge
wind spade
#

And in general:

  • keep the pipe system as simple as possible
  • don't use buffers or valves
  • loop any pipe manifolds
  • feed from above or level
  • fill the pipes before turning it on
daring sonnet
#

ill try running some of these tips

vapid gorge
#

I'd also avoid having the manifold be split on different floors, if you have to do that split it early and treat it like 2 manifolds

daring sonnet
#

and loop each manifold separetely? like, I separate the 600 on the bottom, make 300 go up, 300 go down, and loop each system separetely?

vapid gorge
#

exactly. seperate loops and treat them as independent

#

I'd also put a pump before the start of each of the seperated loops but it might be overkill

daring sonnet
#

couldnt a valve to the work so I dont spend extra energy?

vapid gorge
daring sonnet
#

ok im building that system now

wind spade
#

Hence why I said to evade buffers and valves xD

vapid gorge
#

I think buffers and valves are needed for fluid train systems? I'm not sure whatever they are actually required for

daring sonnet
#

i thought valves were a backflowing solution, but Im building without them now

vapid gorge
#

sadly no

vapid gorge
daring sonnet
#

does this connector position work?

image.png
vapid gorge
#

turbo fuel ones will have to be much much longer obvs

daring sonnet
#

i sse you put your connectors horizontally

vapid gorge
daring sonnet
#

meaning it doesnt work, or that it is unnecessary?

vapid gorge
#

well more that this doesn't look like it's one of hte 300 turbo fuel pipes?

daring sonnet
#

im only using fuel, not turbo

vapid gorge
#

ah well that's still only like 125 fuel in 10 gens right? are you making smaller independent manifolds?

#

or have you OCed the crap out of them?

daring sonnet
#

yeah, I made each manifold running 300

vapid gorge
#

Ah fair enough. yeah should work fine , just leave 1 of the generators off on each manifold until the whole system is flooded

daring sonnet
#

they are 10 gens running 250%

wind spade
wind spade
vapid gorge
#

I thought the fluid train buffer system needed valves? ah well. I haven't needed to build one personally

wind spade
#

no, it's valveless as it's required to be bidirectional iirc

vapid gorge
#

huh cool

wind spade
#

but even then, the "don't build valves and buffers" still apply 🤷‍♂️ just if you know what you're doing you can use some of them

daring sonnet
#

ok, so I built the system, but when I turn on the gens, fuel in the pipes rapidly decreases and maintains at around half capacity on the top of the loop. does that mean I have issues elsewhere?

wind spade
#

amount of fluid in the pipe is irrelevant

#

if everything works, then it's good

daring sonnet
#

geezus, everything seems fine now, I DEEPLY appreciate the help, i was going crazy with these pipes

#

just as final adjustments, the bottom pump is useless here, or is it better to have it? and considering a larger system, a pump would be benefitial in this position right? for the backflow issues?

image.png
#

and should I just remove these buffers between the gens and the blenders?

image.png
vapid gorge
#

remove all the buffers
as for the pump - I advised it because of the manifold split. If you've flooded it and got it to a point where it's stable I think technically it's not needed - but I'm paranoid about doing set ups like that and the small mw would give me peace of mind. Feel free to remove it and see what happens though I guess?

daring sonnet
#

ok, thanks again, it was a world of help

true junco
#

You dont have to remove the buffers. You could route around them and isolate them as backup fuel should you ever accidentally blow a fuse and need to restart your grid.

vapid gorge
#

buffer reboots are so cuuuummbersome though. Power storage gang

hushed ridge
#

dammnnn mods hitting diff

Screenshot_2023-06-17_131157.png
main dirge
#

Personally find buffers useful solely for:

  • Fluid intermediates produced with a by-product (or vice-versa) as the fluid may need flushing for manifold saturation
  • Test points in an input-prioritised system - full buffer = bad and needs flushing, filling buffer = can fix setup whilst breaking making diagnosing easier
  • Trains

Basically they're never useful for actually buffering bc, like, infinite resources and all that, they're just sinks or flow equalisers

snow dove
#

buffers are only useful for trains

balmy spear
#

While I get the whole thing with valves where they cause more problems than they are worth and if all you care about is preventing backflow you can just use unpowered pumps, but I don't understand the hate for buffers people have here, use them a lot, never had any issues with them and they have saved me tons of problems when used as fuel or gas buffers.

snow dove
#

because they’re entirely useless outside of use in fluid train platforms?

#

and they very easily cause headlift issues which cause people to think pipes are buggy in-game

balmy spear
#

They are nice to guarantee that there won't be any stop-go BS, at least in my experience

#

I know buffers interfere with head lift, but as long as you put them high up, they work nicely

snow dove
#

the pipes themselves provide plenty of buffer

balmy spear
#

Or preventing problem in case of power outage stalling machines when restarting or if you want to make tweaks to the system without fully shutting things down

snow dove
#

if you have a power outage you did something wrong

#

just prefill your manifolds and start it back up again

balmy spear
#

You can't always micromanage 5000 machines across half the map you know, some might get you past the capacity when they were supposed to be idling, during progression especially, you can't afford to be stingy on power

snow dove
#

why would you ever be stingy on power?

balmy spear
#

Exactly my point, you want to be at the limit, but it's easy to go past accidentally

snow dove
snow dove
#

also why would you have to micromanage machines, just get it right the first time

balmy spear
#

Most people don't micromanage and optimize during progression though, they make do until they have the stuff TO min-max

snow dove
#

what do you mean by “min-max”

#

like matching production to consumption?

balmy spear
#

From one tier to another, your factory needs can change, but you can't be remaking the factory every time, you remake it when you hit certain "milestones"

snow dove
#

no your factory doesn’t need to change

#

If i have a factory producing computers for example, why would getting a new milestone require me to change it?

balmy spear
#

And that is why I leave machines idling sometimes on purpose, before the power switch update, it was a pain to walk back to the other side of the map to turn that part of the grid off

#

Maybe you got a better alt or something, many reasons

zinc crater
#

@snow dove I think they play the game in a very different way than you do.

snow dove
#

yeah i gathered that

vapid gorge
#

sounds like a nightmarish way to play - just build a power plant that you odn't have to always stress out about what's on

balmy spear
#

Once in endgame, I admit you need to calculate everything perfectly, but if you sit and calculate everything every 5 seconds, you are playing calculator, not a game

snow dove
#

goal should always be to way overproduce power

snow dove
vapid gorge
#

many people don't

snow dove
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I for example match every consumption-production thing

balmy spear
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Why stress and min-max coal when you can just get fuel a bit later for example?

snow dove
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still don’t get what you mean by “min-max”

balmy spear
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Once you have everything, then sure, before though, it's by preference

vapid gorge
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why would you need to make thigns precise early on if you don't have to do it at the end?

balmy spear
snow dove
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once you get access to clock speeds and basic logistics, you can do that with every machine

balmy spear
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During progression I play the game like a game, during endgame with proper calculations because THAT will be the final factory

snow dove
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and a lot of people do

vapid gorge
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I don't understand what you mean by 0.5% clock speed changes - you set it when you build a machine? it doesn't change unless you want it to

snow dove
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i don’t see why you wouldn’t match production values to consumption values

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and having a buffer doesn’t affect that lol

vapid gorge
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I don't set anything precise early on and that has nothing to do with trying to keep certain sections of factory off? just let it fill up and not sink the items - then it goes on standby on it's own

snow dove
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if your consumption is over your production, it’ll delay your issue, if it’s under production, it does nothing

wide thorn
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wich one of these is really useful?

image.png
snow dove
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there is no “best recipe”

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you also can unlock every alternate recipe so don’t stress too much

balmy spear
snow dove
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if you just want my opinion tho, Pure iron

snow dove
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You should have significantly more power than you use at all times

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well past the very early game

balmy spear
# wide thorn wich one of these is really useful?

If you have steel screw, bolted frame is a much nicer option, but that's personal opinion. The ingot can be great if you have water nearby because it can nearly halve your iron requirements even if it takes a refinery and extractors

snow dove
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if you choose to limit yourself on power that’s a you problem

balmy spear
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I'm literally talking progression, why would you have an issue of power in late game?

snow dove
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once you get coal, power shouldn’t be a limitation

balmy spear
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Especially after nuclear, you can have so much power you have nothing to do with unless you plan to tank your FPS

snow dove
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Also this convo started about buffers, and how they have no actual use outside of train cargo platforms

balmy spear
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I know, but like I said, they did help me on many occasions, so I just don't see the reason for hating is all

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Valves on the other hand I wonder why are still in the game lol

snow dove
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the reason for hating is that they have no actual use outside of train cargo platforms

snow dove
balmy spear
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What's that?

snow dove
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not a fan of em, but people use them

balmy spear
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Seems like too much effort for what it's worth, but options are good to have I guess

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Only time I used them was for backflow blocking and it caused too many issues, so been using unpowered pumps since

snow dove
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wdym “caused to many issues”

median heath
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VOPs are fairly common to build, just not 3-tiered ones tbh.

snow dove
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if you don’t limit the throughput it all they work fine

balmy spear
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Sometimes I tried limiting is the thing and went badly, so gave up on figuring out pipes and been doing simple setups that just get the job done

snow dove
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it’s cause valves only work on an 8bit system, so there’s only 256 values it will actually accept