off-topic-tech

[pure karma]

if i get say a 1 gig switch can it output 1gig on a single output or is it genuinely just devided by each port so one with 4 ports could only do 250 per port even if only one is being used

[visual tree]

It should output 1 gbit on each port afaik

[night girder]

Check speed of WAN port of the switch you want.

[pure karma]

so if i have 1gbit going in as long as the other 3 ports arent being hit hard the first port should do the full gigabit speed

[visual tree]

Uplink (main) port will be limited to 1 gbit/s and if you for example have 4 ports and only use 1 atm, you will get 1 gbit/s

[night girder]

You could go for 10Gbit switch so you don't have to worry about all that 😄

[visual tree]

Each port can receive 1 gbit/s but your uplink port will be a bottleneck

[night girder]

With 10Gbit* switch?

[visual tree]

Yeah

Now it's no 🤣

[night girder]

Sorry, though you replied to me, about the 10Gbit thing I posted 😄

[visual tree]

Np

[night girder]

Which I would find surprising.

To have 10Gbit ports, but 1G wan port

[visual tree]

I will probably get Unifi Cloud Gateway Fiber since it supports a total of eight 2MP cameras

Might need to replace cameras soon and was thinking of getting G5 dome ultra

[night girder]

G5 dome ultra sounds impressive.

[visual tree]

Cameras have some smudge on the cover and I can't remove it with any cleaning chemicals....

Not to mention Dahua doesn't sell spare domes

[cursive fable]

You can try toothpaste 😏

[visual tree]

It looks ok now but can't see anything during the night:

[cursive fable]

But, not going to go for the newest G6 or the AI domes?

[visual tree]

Tried that and didn't work 🙁

[cursive fable]

How do you mean?

[visual tree]

Tight budget considering I need 7 new cameras and I need something basic 😅

[night girder]

What's the law regarding cameras @ private properties and homes?

[visual tree]

You can only record your private property only

[night girder]

No visuals of public roads right?

[visual tree]

If you aim camera at your neighbour, he can report you

[cursive fable]

Yeah, feel that. I have some craptastic older SWANN cameras I need to upgrade. 6 of them currently lol.

[visual tree]

Oh, public areas are allowed

[night girder]

Yeah, same here. If we have camera's, and they record anything, we are allowed to do that, if we report it to the cops we have a camera and the reason for it.

[visual tree]

Well, not that bad now. Was much worse before cleaning the dome:

[night girder]

Oh, here you can't just place camera's at your home if they can record public roads and domains.

[cursive fable]

No, you can point out to the public road all day. In fact, many states in the US have an agreement to be able to pull ring cameras of an area for investigations.

[night girder]

Asablic isn't from US afaik 😒 That's why I asked.

[cursive fable]

But... they ... are .. public .. lol

[night girder]

You know, there is a world outside the US right 🤣

[cursive fable]

Ahh

[visual tree]

This one needs some cleaning....

[night girder]

Looks like rain.

[cursive fable]

Yeah, but I wasn't aware of anywhere where "public" facing ring doorbells or something wasn't allowed.

I could see if it was pointed at your neighbors windows or something for sure though.

[night girder]

Someone in a street away from me had 5 cameras around the house.
A half a year ago, the police puf flyers in our mailboxes telling us:

You can't just place camera's. You need permission from us.
And bam. The dude with the 5 cameras had no more cameras.

I think someone reported them and the police just raised awereness with the flyers.

Or they paid him a visit.

[visual tree]

Those are smudges I have big issues with

[cursive fable]

And what country is this?

Assuming somewhere in the EU?

[night girder]

Yeah, so civilians have to respect privacy of other civilians. I think that's the reason?
It's even so that if I am at a festival, and there is a group picture of the whole crowd, if I recognize myself and they didn't ask permission.
I can ask them to remove that picture because they didn't ask permission.

Now, festivals have become smart, and when you buy a ticket, you kinda agree to pictures/videos. Because of this law.

[night girder]

Yeah, EU.

[cursive fable]

Yeah, for any that I have that may be catching my neighbors yard, I have a 'black out' setup in the DVR to block anything that isn't "my land". Though I also checked with them an neither care. Though I wish the US had some respect for other's privacy smh.

What about recording public officials? Cops and the like for personal protections?

[night girder]

The goverment doesn't have respect though. I saw documentary of my country, where the news found out, the goverment have cameras that even can see into bedroom. Especially in cities.

[night girder]

Everything goes for security. No privacy.

[night girder]

These cameras are pointed at roads, but they can be rotated. And well, if you rotate and you have lot of apartment blocks ... well it's easy to find a window with no curtains closed.

And the rotation is just somebody sitting at control room with a joystick.

This is mostly something that affect the major cities.

In villages, there are also a lot of cameras, but most are privately owned by businesses. Or placed at the borders of every village.

Trust me, if you travel in my country, they know every single village, street etc you have been too. Even the most stupid country roads, have cameras.

[night girder]

Something we don't have enough (yet) and I see a lot in the US.

1. Bodycameras on when cops interact with civilians.
2. Public archive of those bodycam footages.

[cursive fable]

Yeah, it's getting ridiculous over here. Would move in a heartbeat if I could lol.

[visual tree]

Did some quick dome cleaning. Will have to clean the dome glass from inside when I have time:

[night girder]

That's some tight security.

Thanks for sharing

[visual tree]

I also have alarm system but it's outdated. GSM module supports 3G only and ISP has shut down 3G in 2024

There are some other ISP's which still use 3G but they will probably retire it soon too

[night girder]

Ok, good to know.

I'll pass it along to my guys

[visual tree]

I have some other ways to receive notifications though 😄

Btw, free tip regarding valuable items when you are going on a vacation

When you are going on a vacation, rent a safe in a bank and store your valuable items there

I always do that and don't have to worry about something stealing valuable items

[night girder]

I went on vacation 3 times in my life I believe. I don't go outside much.

[visual tree]

We can't afford going to a vacation in our own country lol

Because everything is insanely expensive right now

[night girder]

I am going to a lake tomorrow, 30 minutes drive away. Perfect for me 👌

[visual tree]

Oh, I was talking about going to the coast here. Good luck finding a decent apartment with a normal price

[night girder]

Make some sandwiches, enough to drink, shade, a foldable sit and I am pretty much happy.
Oh and some friends.

[visual tree]

Going to a local place nearby is fine here

[night girder]

I am saying; that I adjusted to "cheaper" things. And I am happy with it.

You don't know my beach do you?

Asfar as you can see, every summer. That's why I flee to different places.

[pure karma]

that looks like hell

[visual tree]

That's what coast in Dubrovnik might look like because of massive tourism lol

[night girder]

Our coastline is so small.

It's everywhere 🤷‍♂️ There is no free space left.

[pure karma]

the beaches around here are literally always empty

[pure karma]

the only residents are washed up lobster traps and wild tractors trying to iligally recover them

[night girder]

Yo wtf! Trade with me.

That beach looks lovely.

Look at the grey mud we have to deal with

[visual tree]

Comes with a very BIG price!

My dad was born here btw:

[night girder]

I hope not in the middle of that sea.

[visual tree]

The city in the upper left corner

[night girder]

What's down left? On the hill?

[pure karma]

mansion probably

[night girder]

Either hotel. Because a bunker would be weird.

[visual tree]

Not sure tbh

[night girder]

it would be a good strategic location for a fort.

What ocean is that btw?

It's not the baltic sea is it?

[visual tree]

Just checked. It is a bunker lol

Abandoned military base

[night girder]

makes so much sense.

It was the first thing that popped into my head tbh.

Been watching too much documentaries lately.

[visual tree]

I think it's a very old bunker probably from ww2 era

Not sure if it's the same bunker but there is a video of someone exploring it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS5kMa18IUk

From AC discussion to military bunker exploration

[night girder]

Ah so Mediterranean

[visual tree]

Having a lot of islands is pefect for military infrastructure

[night girder]

and for an invasion

it's a double edged sword

[visual tree]

Yeah. If war broke out, I would still prefer hiding on an island since it's harder to detect people there

Living near a big capital city is like a sitting duck. You can't hide for long until someone finds you

Best bet is hiding on a rocky island with no houses since nobody would expect you there but you would also have to hide your boat somewhere

[night girder]

rocky island, so you gonna survive on what... fish?

[visual tree]

Probably 😅

There are people who got stranded on a remote island and somehow survived before people found them

It won't be easy though

[night girder]

True, the other stories we never hear because they don't come back to tell us.

[visual tree]

I still don't like living near big cities. Feels like there is no place to hide

Best bet is going as far away from people as possible

[night girder]

Yeah, I prefer country side / nature.

And I honestly wouldn't know what I would do if a war broke out.

a rocky island is already out of the question here 🤣

[dire igloo]

become suicide bomber for the lulz

[night girder]

the closest rocky island we got is UK 😄

[dire igloo]

I ain't gonna survive anyway, might as well make it count

[night girder]

I was thinking in that direction, would I serve my country?

[visual tree]

Tell people you are good with tech and they might let you become a mechanic or drone operator. Hope they don't send you on the battlefield 😅

[dire igloo]

who cares about the country?
leave a legacy!

[night girder]

They are still on the battlefield and a target. For other drones.

But it's safer than in the trenches/frontline.

[dire igloo]

you're first line tech support

[night girder]

"Hello, my drone doesn't work and the enemy is shooting at me. Help"

[visual tree]

"Have you tried turning the drone on and off?"

[night girder]

🤣

Perfect timing.

[dire igloo]

WW1 was in part caused by a small group of people not wanting to die of tuberculosis, so they assassinated some foreign royalty instead

[visual tree]

"Sorry boss, I can't launch rockets. Windows is updating...."

[night girder]

"Oh shit, I lost connection to my nuke" 🤣

[visual tree]

I hope military doesn't use windows or else we are already dead

[night girder]

I know how the US does it.

[visual tree]

At least not on the battlefield. Using windows in administration is ok I guess

[night girder]

And it's not windows when it comes to nukes.

there is a documentary about it on YT I believe. Really interesting. They take you along a sub and tell you how the process work before they can launch a nuke etc.

and what I know about it, it's a very old system.

[dire igloo]

make the drones compatible with XBOX-controllers, make the control interface look like a video game, get a bunch of CoD kiddies to control them

[night girder]

10 kills for a new ingame drone skin

[dire igloo]

"ingame"

get 8 kills without civilian casualties and you got yourself a medal

increase these achievements further to unlock even rarer medals

[night girder]

U.S. nuclear submarines do not use traditional operating systems like those found in personal computers; instead, they rely on specialized, proprietary software systems designed for military applications and safety. These systems are tailored for navigation, weapon control, and other critical submarine functions, ensuring high reliability and security.

Aw... stupid AI 😦

Would be funny if it said Linux or something 😄

[dire igloo]

until the US president shakes your hand handing you a physical copy of one of those video game achievement medals

[night girder]

Oh, the subs still use floppy disk!

[visual tree]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zpCOYkdvTQ

[night girder]

That's what I remember. LOL.

[dire igloo]

could very well be a Linux distro still

[night girder]

Yeah true!

[dire igloo]

great show

[night girder]

yeah loved it too.

And better yet, that it's a reality now

[visual tree]

Hope nothing like this happens here lol

[dire igloo]

Bavaria One

[night girder]

Well, there is a spaceforce so...

then we look at history ... mhm. Yeah, I can see it happen again in space 🤣

And some vandalizing of a moonbase isn't that bad.

[visual tree]

I can't belive Mars Climate Orbiter incident actually happened and someone calculated data in imperial system lol

[dire igloo]

some people have to learn the hard way

[visual tree]

[dire igloo]

smart people learn from their mistakes
wise people learn from other people's mistakes

[visual tree]

and dumb people never learn from anything

[jagged snow]

From what I know it's more or less bare metal with some scheduling/rtos stuff

Maximum predictability

[dire igloo]

@twin dew how familiar are you with handheld PCs?
looking to get one for traveling (I regularly travel for work) and I'm not sure what to get

what are the best options out there for low budget, best value, most convenience and highest performance?

usecase:
play games while traveling, watch TV shows or movies when not in the mood for gaming
games probably some bullethell type titles, tho maybe some shooters too (RPG/story, not competitive)
will be traveling by train too, so cell internet or Wifi isn't reliably available, as is access to any charging >90W (and even that may be an overstatement on the outlet)

market: Germany
fine with used/refurb if it still feels like new-ish

[glossy glacier]

if you don't need the best performance or windows, get a steamdeck

[tough owl]

ditto

[soft bloom]

this is NOT how one should make a function plot
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QTkPfq7w1A

[tough owl]

watched the video

super interesting

[soft bloom]

I am kind of sad it didn't mention Steve who brought this to YT couple years ago and made a tiny bit better explanation and demonstration of spring pair

But, the new contraption is cool. Especially the resonance damping

[dire igloo]

I don't need the best performance, but I need good enough performance.
And steam deck will lock me out of games like Destiny 2

[jagged snow]

Why is it so hard to buy a long usb-a pigtail?

I don't like needing to sacrifice other cables for repairs

[wanton orchid]

the whole plot is stupid

it's simply a loaded mechanism

the common revolutionary stupid thing that everyone know how to do since at least thousand years

[safe trench]

also known as "Linux"

[wanton orchid]

na it's too reliable

it's better to have insurance company backup by paying big corpo money :
it's known as "java smart card OS"

[charred relic]

I've seen some oddball setups for sure

Like weird modified Unix systems running a warehouse

[twin dew]

Not familiar beyond GN reviews of few of them, and don't remember enough even of those.

[dire igloo]

Aight, I'll ask the retro handheld community

[soft bloom]

but the main advantage of the glass is that you an play snake
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rf-efIZI_Dg

[soft bloom]

how many teachers who had passionate educational project that got dunked on by management of their institution do you know about?
https://youtu.be/Zeb6XCvx7RQ?si=A9WK2Lum_mnwNYEb

[feral drift]

Found a way to quadruple my RAM capacity.. Just mount them vertically, can fit up to 4 RAM sticks in 1 slot..

Think its called Raid-0 RAM profile 😁

[twin dew]

Trying DIY CXL RAM?

[feral drift]

Its DIY something for sure..

And the trained eye, would also see the amazing surround air cooler on the CPU :D

[twin dew]

That is Z68 board, someone having fun while disassembling old system.

Sandy Bridge / Intel 2nd gen Core from 2011.

CXL allows connecting special RAM cards to PCIe slots, on server systems with CXL support.

For more, much higher latency, RAM.

About 200ns extra from the PCIe.

[feral drift]

Imho just saw its was in PCIe slot.. Thought it was RAM slots lol

[vital condor]

This is so random bit I have to talk about it:
I have put a script in my Windows startup folder which automatically plays the Windows XP startup sound every time I boot up my PC. It happens a little bit delayed most of the time but not today:

I had my PC booted up for over 5 minutes and was finishing my Caterium factory when suddenly the sound played. 5 MINUTES after boot, what the F?

[twin dew]

Why not just set it as the Windows startup sound in the settings?

[vital condor]

I tried but it was buggy so I changed it that way...

[twin dew]

Ok, my mistake, seems that that Windows Startup Sound isn't configurable at least in Win11, just the on-off toggle, not in the configs.

[vital condor]

np

[pure karma]

but... why?....

[charred relic]

I hate when my smart TV goes dumb.

Anybody got any first hand experience with those "outdoor" 1080p projectors? Some of them aren't too bad ($350ish).. Considered getting one and a screen for doing outdoor movies.

[pure karma]

350$ FOR A 1080P PROJECTOR???

[dire igloo]

It fits

[charred relic]

some way more... some way less

not sure how much i trust way less

[maiden coyote]

Rog ally might be your best bet. Multimedia consumption kind of rules out the steam deck

[dire igloo]

Why's that?

[pure karma]

cause steamos

[dire igloo]

Skill issue
gamerant.com/steam-deck-how-install-netflix-disney-plus-amazon-prime/

[pure karma]

too much effort for something that should be a one click thing

[maiden coyote]

Pretty much. The ally is newer with a more powerful chip.. battery life be damned,

If you want to tinker by all means get the deck.. if got want something familiar that just works the ally wins. For multimedia

If you just want to play steam games the deck does that exceptionally well

[charred relic]

ally with steamos 😄

https://tenor.com/view/whatever-southpark-gif-4990391

[winged valley]

So apparently there is incredibly high demand for MBP motherboards

I listed an A1709 board at 119 earlier and literally 30 minutes later I sold it at 115 after an offer

Maybe I should get into the business of junking macbooks (I only made an 8.43 profit but still)

[dire igloo]

Battery life is an important factor tho, I'll be using it on the go regularly and I don't wanna depend on permanent outlet access

[charred relic]

which from what i understand is kinda what you get with an ally + steamos

I might get a handheld in the future if I start landing int he hospital a lot again. But I'll have access to an outlet and the handheld part will be to make it easy/convenient/comfortable

[dire igloo]

Can it run SteamOS natively or would I need smth like Bazzite?

[charred relic]

laptop is just so much more cumbersome or i'd get a nice laptop to game on

they have images for other handhelds now

[dire igloo]

Also: only the Ally X comes with OLED, regular Ally only has IPS

[charred relic]

you can even install it on a pc assuming it meets certain AMD and storage requirements

[dire igloo]

Another win for the Steamdeck

Regular Ally matches Steamdeck in price, Ally X is like +300€

[charred relic]

apparently installing on nnme is mandatory...

err nvme

I'd try it but... what's the point I wouldn't use it on this system

[maiden coyote]

The lenovo legion is worth a look to.

So I guess the better question is if you want to deal with the quirks of steamos, or the quirks of windows. From what I understand neither desktop experience is fantastic, I find steamos desktop awkward, the experience in non desktop mode is very nice tho.. it was built for it

If they've got netflix, and disney plus working well on the deck I think that's a winner.. I'm biased because I have one... and I haven't even had time to get enudeck working on it

Emudeck *

[pure karma]

should but not at its full performance

because of the 15W combined power max on steamos

probably bypassable but still yet another obstancle of steamos

[charred relic]

it is easily bypassed

or adjusted... otherwise nobody would get any reasonable performance on a PC with it, which they do

[glossy glacier]

Powerlimit should be steam deck specific
The generic SteamOS built does not offer, or at least very restricted, power and clock adjustments

[safe trench]

just wait for the release
they will have an iso

and probably a more refined desktop experience

[dire igloo]

Had considered it, decided against due to weight and ergonomics (I don't like the edgy design)

[dire igloo]

I have decided to just get Steamdeck.
Best experience overall and best value

[safe trench]

i hate curseforge app

i hope whoever made it eatids an abobr.,.,.,

[charred relic]

goood let the hate flow through you

[visual tree]

Please don't ruin this 🙏 https://youtu.be/HJBnlZKgeUg?si=_QEWn883RJPgLO4y

[languid gulch]

wow, that was almost a teaser for something

[charred relic]

It's a teaser teaser

next is the teaser trailer teaser...

[night girder]

But didn't you say you wanted to run games like destiny 2? 🤔

Read a review about the new MSI Claw 8 AI+. MSI decided to go with intel, the Intel Core Ultra 7 258V.

Review in different language; tweakers.net/reviews/13406/msi-claw-8-ai+-gaminghandheld-de-hardware-is-top-nu-de-software-nog.html

TLDR; Good hardware, buggy software, pricy ( € 939,-)

[sterile gazelle]

@weak stirrup wouldnt reinstalling windows delete all the files?

[weak stirrup]

depends... ideally you set it up, such that windows is on its own partition

[sterile gazelle]

also im using windows 10 still so idk if that might change anything

actually

would upgrading to windows 11 count as a "fresh install"

[weak stirrup]

then youd only have to reinstall stuff, keeping all your data (that is, if you either setup windows special folders properly, or dont use them (talking 'documents' etc.. those are on c: by default, but you can move them)

[dire igloo]

It was a concern - I don't know if I'll want to run those games, I primarily disliked the thought of not being able to.
I later realized that I'd have to play D2 with controller bindings, so it wasn't attractive

[weak stirrup]

i wouldn trust it to be that.. in theory yes.. but i have never seen a windows that is actually broken in the way im thinking (which, lets not forget, is not necessarily the issue you have), to be repaired without a clean install

[weak stirrup]

to give you an actual advise on how to proceed: start with the simpler things, which as to what weve discussed so far would be to try and find a specific setting of satisfactory, that causes the drop - although i did understand that you havent to do such things in the past

but i can hear something ringing here

@sterile gazelle how long is that ago, that youve played with better performance?

[sterile gazelle]

let me check

[weak stirrup]

because i just recently watched a youtube video from a game developer about unreal 5.. and they said, that unreal 5 can show worse performance than unreal 4 on the same game, due to framework overhead

[sterile gazelle]

about 2-3 years

[weak stirrup]

and if i recall correctly satisfactory eventually did upgrade from unreal 4 to 5

i mean lemme be clear: im not in the loop on current games and their issues because i dont play them, so i cant tell/confirm myself..

[sterile gazelle]

also ive found a steam performance guide with the guy having the same exact specs as me and having really good performance

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2891460601

[twin dew]

And this is wrong place for Satisfactory help.
Make #1038092680493801533 thread and specify your CPU and GPU.
Most likely broken Nvidia driver install.

[weak stirrup]

ye... my gut feeling tellls me its with your system as welll.. but i cant tell.. you should make sure though that this dude does not have some nvidia board that some vendors sell in variants of 4 gig and 12 gig and you have the 6 gig and the dude has the 12 gig or somethin glike that

as far as i know nvidia is still doing this

or their partners

[weak stirrup]

also good idea (the broken nvidia install)

and/or wrong nvidia settings

[sterile gazelle]

i have amd tho

[weak stirrup]

thats good 😂

[sterile gazelle]

and i did a clean driver reset like a week ago

[weak stirrup]

partly

[twin dew]

But again, make that thread, this is off-topic.

[sterile gazelle]

its tech tho

[weak stirrup]

i mean.. the fact that you say you had the same experience as the dude 3 years ago tells me if its not your system or your settings it can only be unreal 5

hardware doesnt degrade in a way such that you suddenly have less fps.. thats ALWAYS software

[twin dew]

Most of those have been bullshit.

[weak stirrup]

if hardware actually degrades your pc doesnt boot anymore

[twin dew]

Yes, but usually not the engine change, but other software not handling that engine change right.

[weak stirrup]

we are not about blaming anybody here

its about solving the issues of biogene

[twin dew]

Nvidia driver never handle it correctly without DDU or Windows reinstall.
AMD does it better, but still some issues in cases.
But again, make that thread.

[sterile gazelle]

i will

[weak stirrup]

nah thats good.. we already are in off topic, which there are three different channels of... if you have further question, just dm me.. but we dont have to be told what to do by some rando... the channel title says 'talk about nerd stuff like science and programming and hardware stuff' which we obviously do

[twin dew]

And Satisfactory specific technical help belongs into the Satisfactory channels.

[weak stirrup]

theres also the blocklist

[twin dew]

Because I'm not spamming this channel with full screen help pastes etc.

[weak stirrup]

i havent seen it fully anymore, but it looked like he asked us to go back to satisfactory channel, which we just came from because it was off topic 😂

[night girder]

Baldur isn't a rando btw.

[charred relic]

Yeah I'm a rando...

[sterile gazelle]

nah its the threads things

[weak stirrup]

all good bro.. .if he wants to dictate something, he shall ask a mod.. if hes not a rando, shouldnt be an issue for him at all

but i dont know him, hes not a mod.. so....

[charred relic]

Wonder how cheaply I can source a pinball cab that's really only good for the cabinet itself...

I'd like to do a DIY digital pinball setup...

[weak stirrup]

and i dont know anybody else in here, whos not a mod and who claims hes somebody... if a mod tells me to open a thread, i do so immediately

[charred relic]

...I used to have a guy for this sort of thing

[sterile gazelle]

nah it doesnt matter, its easier if its all in one channel anyways

[sterile gazelle]

https://discord.com/channels/370472939054956546/1389886931516788817

[weak stirrup]

@sterile gazelle dont let me tell you what to do though.. my intention was not to tell you not to open that thread if you want to

[pure karma]

Thats pure copium and denial

hardware degrades clocks drop temps increase for the same clocks and performance drops

Its just unoticable most the time unless you have a direct comparison

[twin dew]

Hardware doesn't degrade in way that causes different performance for most part.
But just gets unstable at some point.

[weak stirrup]

lul.. i wondered why you say such bullshit.. but then i read your tag

[night girder]

never ever? 🤔 not even a tiny bit of performance drop because of degredation?

not a single hardware component that loses performance because of age?

[twin dew]

Might be tiny bit from that extra leakage caused heating.
But shouldn't really be measurable because of the time scales.
As you would need to have the exact same OS and software to compare, basically set aside.

But the instability today would almost certainly come before significant effects from that leakage.

As the turbo tables are so close to the stability limit at stock.

As AFAIK no system yet has dynamic adjustment to keep stable.

[pure karma]

instability is generally a performance loss or more specifically causes performance losses

[twin dew]

No?

You just crash or reboot.
Except for AM5 Infinity Fabric in some range as it has excessive error correction and retransmission capacity compared to anything else I know off, and is not sending error reports.
So you can OC to range where you get so many errors that get retransmitted that the overall performance suffers.
Almost anything else just either corrects the errors, or fails.

Where that correcting error doesn't cause performance loss.

[night girder]

Technically right? Performance goes from 100% to 0% when your system starts crashing 😂

[languid gulch]

leave it to EGS to wake me up in the middle of the night thinking that my pc is about to lift off

[tough owl]

boo

[pure karma]

i cant wait to make jokes about my ram flatlining

[twin dew]

Special MB version that got to DDR5 10000MT/s with 64GB of RAM.

Because of that use of CAMM2.

Not even for sale at this time, just special one-off from standard DIMM retail version.

[languid gulch]

ok dumb question

with how ram for AMD has a current sweet spot of 6000MT/s, what's the next higher up sweet spot

[ivory rampart]

Your hardware might degrade because you abuse it.
But for the normal user it realy doesnt matter

[pure karma]

6400?

[twin dew]

First is highest your CPU IMC can do in 1:1 mode, which highest FCLK that doesn't hit that degraded performance from too many retransmissions thing.
Next is whatever is faster in actual usage than that with memory controller in 1:2 mode and with FCLK then synced 1:1 to that memory controller speed, somewhere around 7600MT/s and up from that.

[dire igloo]

Unless you read the message and see that it says "suddenly".
Degradation happens slowly and gradually, you don't see immediate changes from one day to another.
If that happens to you, that's most likely a software thing

[dire igloo]

And 6400 is a gamble on stability if you wanna run it in 1:1 mode.
At 1:2 it's much slower and only at like 7200 MT/s 1:2 do you see performance equivalent to 6000 1:1

www.purepc.pl/jaka-pamiec-ram-ddr5-do-procesora-amd-ryzen-7000-optymalizacja-timingow-dla-zestawu-ddr5-6400-mhz?page=0,30

[feral drift]

On another note..

The statistic bars - is very very very much off the numbers below for each line :D

[dire igloo]

Most likely fps vs percentage? Idk actually

[twin dew]

Cannot be when it is from multiple games.
And that lowest result is supposed to be the 100% comparison point.

Basically they have fucked up majorly in the interpretation/chart generation step.

So that lowest result might actually be that 100% as the graph size, and just the per bar numbers are fucked up.

[night girder]

I just had a weird case with a laptop.

Windows 10, the wifi just completely dissapeared. As if there was no wifi hardware.

Then I went to bios to check if wifi was enabled there and I got stuck in the bios, it wouldn't boot into windows 10 anymore. I did restore default bios a few times didn't help. Then I shut down the laptop completely and booted it up again with F12, in the hopes that would start recovery. But all that did ... was normally boot into windows 10 with wifi back enabled. w...t...f...

[twin dew]

On some laptops, the inbuilt to HW airplane mode toggle removes the power from the Wifi slot.

[night girder]

I tried that too ofc 😉 Before jumping into the BIOS.

There was nothing OS side I could do. There was no wifi adapter under devices.

[twin dew]

Can be different from the Windows Airplane mode toggle.

[night girder]

Toggle airplane mode. Run diagnostic. Run troubleshoot.

I also scanned for changed hardware devices etc. In the hopes it would pick up the adapter.

I was thinking, maybe because of how hot it is, the wifi adapter somehow disconnected from motherboard.

[twin dew]

Have fallen wayside now that Windows itself has toggle.
But point was that at least on some laptops, the manufacturers software can have HW level airplane mode toggole that completely disables the WLAN slot on MB, causing it to not show in any way or form to Windows.

[night girder]

But the fact it suddenly appeared again is weird...

[twin dew]

On some models it was actual physical switch, and not just special software side thing.

[night girder]

We restarted the device multiple times. It was stuck without WIFI.

I don't think that was it. Unless that function crapped out and it enabled airplane mode and disabled WLAN slot.

But I pressed the airplane button ON the laptop itself also multiple times.

And just by going to bios it would be weird that it toggled off no? Or resetting bios?

And the fact it wouldn't boot into windows anymore was also worysome. I told them that the laptop probably is dying.

Thing is 10 years + old .

[twin dew]

So that was almost certainly HW level toggle then.
And that button might only have been trying to tell software to toggle the state, and if that manufacturer windows software wasn't working properly, it didn't actually get the state change to the HW level.
And that BIOS config reset reset the saved airplane mode state, causing it to go back to enabled.
And the "didn't boot first time" was more likely from failed Fast Startup?

[night girder]

no no

"didn't boot first time" = no booting at all.

[twin dew]

Ok.

[night girder]

Tried 5 times. Set boot even.

Had to fully shut down system and I wanted to go into recovery mode.

That's why I pressed F12.

But suddenly, it skipped bios, and also recovery, and started to boot 😒

But everytime I pressed "save and exit" it went straight back into BIOS

Which shouldn't happen afaik?

[languid gulch]

LOL my deep friend laptops would like a word

[twin dew]

As Wild Ass Guess:
Might have needed reflashing BIOS as weird as it sounds.
FLASH chips cells lose charge over time and BIOS chips don't have any kind of automatic maintenance.
And at some point on some reads you get errors, and again no real checking for those in most implementations.

[languid gulch]

and cosmic rays that obliterate stuff is a thing

[twin dew]

But that would cause permanent issue if it hit the firmware flash.

[languid gulch]

oh sorry, was just saying in general

[twin dew]

Where as flash cell gone marginal would cause weird issues depending on how the cell was finally read on each full boot.

And that about 10 years would be about the time AFAIK where that is expected to start to happen in "fresh" flash without too many writes IIRC.

The various flash write endurance end-of-life specs are usually set to where, at room temperature, the cells should still be readable for 12 months.

Chip temperature has major effect on that life, so the high laptop internal temperatures lower the data retention time for the BIOS flash chip as example.

[night girder]

I don't know the temperature of internal hardware.

But the laptop was cool to the touch when booted up. And the fans weren't spining hearable.

[pure karma]

on a laptop? probably 50C+ motherboard temp

[night girder]

So it booted from cold into "no wifi adapter found" issue.

[twin dew]

Not the temperature right at the moment.
But that there is certain amount of time that the flash cell will keep its charge well enough to be reliably read.
At low temperature it is X years, at high temperature it can be X/100 years.
And the time overall is cumulative.
Because that is just electrons leaking through bulk silicon, out of the charge trap or like.

Where there is major temperature dependancy on how fast that happens.

And once you lose high enough percentage of the stored electrons, the flash cell status isn't reliable anymore.

SSD controllers keep track of that and rewrite as needed.
But not all kinds of FLASH storage has that functionality.

So if that BIOS was last updated/flashed 10+ years ago, the problems might have been from degraded flash chip cell readability, that reflashing would solve.

But that was a WAG like I wrote.

[night girder]

Yeah, well. I warned them. I said; laptop is 10+ years old. W10 isn't supported anymore. Can't upgrade to W11 because of hardware check.
So backup everything important. You can use it until it dies I guess.

I wanted to recommend Linux to them, since the usecase is only browsing.

And it would save some money for Windows licensy. But they aren't powerusers.

and I not sure if EID works with Linux since that was a hell at the start of EID, the freaking drivers.

[verbal raft]

found this bunch of commands:

[SystemSettings]
r.TemporalAASamples=8
r.ViewTextureMipBias.Offset=-2.58496
r.FidelityFX.FSR3.ReactiveMaskTranslucencyMaxDistance=250000
r.FidelityFX.FSR3.ReactiveMaskTranslucencyBias=0.5
r.FidelityFX.FSR3.ReactiveMaskTranslucencyLumaBias=0.5
r.FidelityFX.FSR3.ReactiveHistoryTranslucencyBias=0.5
r.FidelityFX.FSR3.ReactiveHistoryTranslucencyLumaBias=0.5
r.FidelityFX.FSR3.ReactiveMaskPreDOFTranslucencyScale=0.5
r.FidelityFX.FSR3.ReactiveMaskRoughnessMaxDistance=0
r.FidelityFX.FSR3.ReactiveMaskRoughnessForceMaxDistance=1
r.FidelityFX.FSR3.ReactiveMaskRoughnessScale=0.5
r.FidelityFX.FSR3.ReactiveMaskRoughnessBias=0.5
r.FidelityFX.FSR3.ReactiveMaskReflectionScale=0.5
r.FidelityFX.FSR3.ReactiveMaskReflectionLumaBias=0.5
im quite curious to see if its snake oil or not

[twin dew]

Remember to run same commands without the values first to see what the defaults are.

That MipBiasOffset value just looks weird as exact value.

2.5km max in that max distance one?

[verbal raft]

yeah, im gonna do that

[twin dew]

As that is in UE units, and the size of those depends on game.

So whatever game that was "optimized" with might have had unit per mm for example, and that would be 250m instead in that game.

[verbal raft]

hoold up, wait a minute
Satisfactory has the reactive mask turned OFF by default

[twin dew]

So complete snake oil if that was supposed to be for Satisfactory, and doesn't include the command to enable the feature.

[verbal raft]

i think its meant for lies of p but the guy that posted said it should work for most UE 5 games...

[twin dew]

Yeah, work, but not do what is expected.
As most of those values usually have to actually be per game tuned.

[verbal raft]

and it probably would TBH

[twin dew]

And that is the issue, the engine supports the settings, but you cannot just copy them between games without some work.

But most people do anyways, without any checking.

[verbal raft]

zeah, makes sense

[verbal raft]

though if i use the command that enables the reactive mask it seems to work

[twin dew]

Yes, but question then becomes, what settings for the rest are good in Satisfactory.
Like that max distance that is directly related to how large the UE units are in specific games.
And rest can also have game specific things.

Reactive mask
In the context of FSR, the term “reactivity” means how much influence the samples rendered for the current frame have over the production of the final upscaled image. Typically, samples rendered for the current frame contribute a relatively modest amount to the result computed by FSR; however, there are exceptions. To produce the best results for fast moving, alpha-blended objects, FSR requires the Reproject & accumulate stage to become more reactive for such pixels. As there is no good way to determine from either color, depth or motion vectors which pixels have been rendered using alpha blending, FSR performs best when applications explicitly mark such areas.
https://gpuopen.com/manuals/fidelityfx_sdk/techniques/super-resolution-upscaler/#reactive-mask

[verbal raft]

zeah, i!d have to tune it mzself wich!d take time and might not even be better than what the devs have alreadz

[twin dew]

So that not being on kind of explains some of the issues Satisfactory has with FSR.

[verbal raft]

(SRY, i had the US layout on a QWERTZ keyboard)

[verbal raft]

well, the biggest one isnt at all related actually

[twin dew]

But basically thing that cannot be implemented by user by tuning those settings without devs providing basic versions that just then get offset.

[verbal raft]

and, BTW,
when i turn the reacitve mask on it actually just makes the game flicker more

[twin dew]

If a Reactive mask is not provided to FSR (by setting the reactive field of FfxFsr3UpscalerDispatchDescription to NULL) then an internally generated 1x1 texture with a cleared reactive value will be used.

Yes, because that is feature that must be coded to be used by the specific game first, before those values do anything useful.

Read the documentation in that url.

Basically would for example allow setting that the fake belt items would only use single frame for the upscaling input, to not smear them.

[verbal raft]

im prettz sure that thats actuallz worse on XeSS somehow
same with hologram ghosting, somehow its way worse on XeSS

[twin dew]

But Satisfactory isn't using FSR directly AFAIK, but using that Nvidias StreamLine UE plugin to abstract all three upscalers behind same framework.
Which probably actually has FSR and XeSS as second class behind DLSS.

[twin dew]

Yeah, but point was that that feature allows the developer to hint FSR on how much every specific shaders output should be temporalized, in addition to whatever automatic adjustment the upscaler does.

[verbal raft]

it would be good in theory for the random particles and drones but for belts its actually not an issue at all in 1.1

[twin dew]

Devs then probably finally added motion vectors for belt items, which used to be missing from all virtual stuff like belt items and machine animations.

[verbal raft]

i still went ahead and done that

I am also gonna go ahead and replace 3.1.3 with .4

[willow pike]

www.reuters.com/business/retail-consumer/intels-new-ceo-explores-big-shift-chip-manufacturing-business-2025-07-02/

Intel CEO Lip-Bu Tan considers shifting foundry unit's focus to "14A" chipmaking process

OH MY GOD

https://tenor.com/view/toast-gif-5463168119520839381

[twin dew]

Seems to be just about what they try to market to outside companies as foundry-for-hire.

[willow pike]

yeah and that was what 18A was meant to be

for the last 5 years, probably more, they hailed 18A as the foundry option that everyone would wanna buy

[verbal raft]

that just made things soo much worse lol

[twin dew]

Yeah, as expected when the base feature isn't used in the game, so the base tuning by devs hasn't been done.

[verbal raft]

no reactive mask is like 3 times better than RM with those commands over there

[verbal raft]

even RM without those CVARs looked better

[twin dew]

Yeah, like I said, those kind of values are very often game specific, and "best" in one cannot be just copied to another.

[verbal raft]

yeah..

r.TemporalAASamples at 2 actually makes it shimmer less

but then when i stand still it gets oversharpened & ailiased like hell

[twin dew]

Probably how many frames are used.

In traditional AA, you got multiple part pixel offset samples around the final pixel.
With Temporal AA you get those from different frames instead, which are each jittered little to get that offsetting, if I understood correctly.

[verbal raft]

zeah, thats my understanding of it too

[verbal raft]

when is 18A meant to come out ?

[willow pike]

sometime this year

[languid gulch]

and when does it start degrading from overvolting

[verbal raft]

BTW Linux devs have gotten FSR 4 cost down to 2milliseconds on a 7900 XT at 1440p Quality preset which isnt much slower than XeSS DP4A

[twin dew]

All active silicon is degrading, no matter the voltage.
Just that after certain voltage-temperature-power curve the degradation starts to race compared to below.

As very simplified statement.

[verbal raft]

whats the launch arguement for DX 12 ?

[low scaffold]

Hello there fellow Pioneer!
You're currently chatting in off-topic channels.

Please note, the entire off-topic category is reserved for not Satisfactory related chattery. To comply with your FICSIT Inc. contract, please make use of the appropriate channels in the Satisfactory category. Thank you!

Command executed by: shibainu7

[safe trench]

its probably -dx12 or something

[thin trout]

Yeah, the issue is mainly that degradation rate is extremely nonlinear and multifactor

it takes a relatively small difference in voltage/current/temperature to cause 10x or 100x or 1000x the degradation rate

[twin dew]

Yeah, but point was that CPUs etc. degrade even on defaults.

[thin trout]

indeed

just for the most part, not at a rate which is relevant

[twin dew]

Just that they are designed to last certain amount of use before they get unstable from that.

And any OC is using that headroom.

[thin trout]

Currently it is like: If you buy 100 CPU's and run them in any workload for 5 years, only 3 of them will fail

[thin trout]

There is a specific control for it on Ryzen CPU's since 2019, so you can OC without eating into it. One of the boost limiters dictates that. Intel doesn't have anything similar yet

[twin dew]

I don't mean that you get faster degradation.
Just that any undervolt etc. is using the headroom to be stable.

etc.

Raising frequency without raising voltage etc. or lowering voltage.

[willow pike]

dang man

if only we could windows that

[tough owl]

I think a lot of windows' pipelines would have to be restructured

[charred relic]

And you want to see me doin my thing all you got to do is plug me in.. to high. I said high, high voltage rock n roll.

[night girder]

new steam overlay that shows DLSS/FSR frames

[charred relic]

neat

[languid gulch]

https://arstechnica.com/science/2025/07/new-evidence-that-some-supernovae-may-be-a-double-detonation/?comments-page=1#comments

well, this could throw a wrench in a hole lotta measurements

[manic cape]

why no run app?

why is it like a browser wth

why is microsoft translating this stuff, thats like making the periodical table in a different language, my phone searches both in english and in slovak why is microsoft like this

[night girder]

I was looking to enabled notifications for direct messages on Discord. So I type in dire and it shows notifications has a hit, but then it's empty.

👌 programming Discord.

Sound notification for DM's? ❌
Add stupid shiny things for real money ✅

Found culprit. lol.

So it matches to that, but then fails to show it when you have searched for it.

[limpid oasis]

Hey, i need to cut 120s clip from 1 hour long video and rotate it 90degrees. Can anyone point me to some free and easy to use software ?

[night girder]

Double foldable phone.

[pure karma]

use the bloat one

or the legacy one to cut it first cause it mght have a lenght limit

[dire igloo]

I think many people use Capcut, but it adds a watermark
You can also try DaVinci Resolve, but I wouldn't call it easy to learn

[limpid oasis]

I just used Loseless Cut from github. Thanks for help anyway!

[willow pike]

where the fuck has this been all my life

[jagged snow]

ffmpeg in the command line, no other way

[dire igloo]

Fucking finally
https://x.com/JakeSucky/status/1940822008604098831

Jake Lucky (@JakeSucky)

The Stop Killing Games initiative has officially passed 1 million signatures

X · Jul 3, 2025, 5:16 PM

[verbal raft]

well damn

[night girder]

that one YT guy (seems internet hates him now) is going to be mad.

Ah, pirate software! He was against it for some reason 🤷‍♂️

[dire igloo]

He was against it because either he grossly misunderstood the campaign or he had a publishing company that'd be harmed by this

[night girder]

Yes, but other YT's called him out. And he doubled down.

Or maybe it's tripple down, or doubledouble down by now? I don't know. But everyone is wrong. And pirate isn't.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuTp4Am51i0

[twin dew]

Where most of the stuff he talks doesn't even apply to the actual stuff in the initiative text.

Basically person who just read some synopsis and went mental.

[night girder]

But yeah, that's pirate software for you. I know he was involved in some WoW hardcore drama last year. With the OnlyFangs guild. He basically killed someone of his own team by fleeing away, saving his own ass. To then double down there was nothing he could do. But people investigated his dungeon/raid with a microscope and were like, "bruh, you had x skills off cool down that you could have used to save your teammate". And that argument went on and on. I think eventually he was kicked from the guild. Because if you died, you lost your character and had to restart all over again, even with a chance of you getting kicked out of the guild. Since they wanted to raid in 2 months and needed a lot of lvl 60's.

Btw, I wouldn't recommend anyone to ever watch the OnlyFangs guild content. I was curious to see how they would prepare to raid etc. But all the content was drama.

[night girder]

Also happy they made it. But this doesn't mean the battle is won at all.

[twin dew]

And more signatures is still better.

[night girder]

mhm... we will see. I don't see it happen soon though.

Gaming industry has money and lobyist.

[twin dew]

Which is why the scope of that actual initiative is so small in the end.

[night girder]

only like +- 3 ECI's actually became law.

11 have made it with signatures.

119 were registered.

[tough owl]

gotta filter through all the invalid signatures

dumb americans putting their names down for one

[covert latch]

I think that's mostly for online games

[night girder]

That's what they are doing right now 🙂

[twin dew]

Would also include any always on DRM etc.

[night girder]

But, the 11 were accepted and validated. And brought before the commision.

The commision had a debate. And that was it. No laws. Continue. We are aware and don't care.

[tough owl]

I am not an EU citizen but I hope they do something about it

[night girder]

And that's where I am curious about. What all the parties involved will do.

Will gaming industry go hard in the attack with lobyist etc? Maybe pissing of gamers?

Will the industry listen to gamers and work to a solution? Will the EU listen to gamers and put pressure on industry?

[tough owl]

My hot take is until someone with a lot more voice than the 1mil signatures does something nothing will change, on the side of the EU commission

[covert latch]

It's up to the business, you can't force them to do something without enough of a probable cause

[night girder]

Well, then what's the point of the ECI 🤣

It will always go against "someone bussiness".

[tough owl]

ECI?.....

[night girder]

European Civilian Initiative. What the petition is for. The whole process.

[covert latch]

What

[tough owl]

has anything come of previous ECIs?

[night girder]

Like I said, barely.

[thin trout]

I'm not super across astronomy, but do Type 1As get used as some flavour of standard candle?

that is the kind of comment that somebody who IS "across astronomy" makes 😛

[tough owl]

I have no idea how the EU does their legislation stuff

[covert latch]

I don't know. Unemployed to the maximum

[night girder]

nobody here does 🤣

Within 1 month
EU officials will meet you

Within 3 months
you will have a public hearing at the European Parliament to explain your initiative

Within 6 months
the Commission will issue a formal reply – and explain why it will or will not propose a new law based on your proposal

This is what is about to happen. Normally.

[tough owl]

its a hopeful future

[covert latch]

If these games are on popular game platforms then why not petition for these game platforms to push new rules?

[night girder]

Oh wait. Give me a few minuts.

Found all 10 answers. Let me read to see what happened.

citizens-initiative.europa.eu/find-initiative_en?CATEGORY[0]=any&STATUS[0]=ANSWERED&SECTION=ALL

[covert latch]

*https://

[twin dew]

Gets added automatically by browser, and including it would have made bot delete the link.

There is very small whitelist of allowed domains.

[covert latch]

Like Discord?

[night girder]

Example of an EU answer for the Stop Finning initiative:

The Commission **commits **to:

● Start without delay preparatory work with a view to launch, by the end of 2023, an impact assessment on the environmental, social and economic consequences of applying the “fins naturally attached” policy to the placing on the EU market of sharks, whether within the EU or for international trade (imports and exports).

● By end 2024, provide more detailed EU’s import and export information to improve statistics on trade in shark products.

● Better enforce the EU’s already strong traceability measures by strengthening the enforcement of EU law that applies to the entire value chain - control of fishing at sea, full traceability of shark products from landing to consumer, consumer information, and prevention and redress of illegal trade - and ensuring the collection and reporting of complete and reliable information by fishermen and Member States’ authorities on all these aspects.

● Step up the EU’s international action: advocate for a worldwide ban of shark finning and strengthen the effective implementation of conservation and management measures for sharks’ species; encourage the reduction of demand for shark fins; and fight against shark fins trafficking.

So it's all a whole bunch of nothing concrete. "We will invistigate what the impact could be IF we do something etc."

[covert latch]

https://discord.com/redirect?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcitizens-initiative.europa.eu/find-initiative_en?CATEGORY[0]=any&STATUS[0]=ANSWERED&SECTION=ALL

[night girder]

Save the bees and farmers did get some legislation out of it!

Proposal for the Nature Restoration Law: following the agreement of the European Parliament on the text (on 27 February 2024), the Council of the EU adopted the regulation on 17 June 2024. It entered into force on 18 August 2024 (20 days after its publication in the Official Journal of the EU) and became applicable immediately.

[night girder]

did you even click the url? because that leads to a whole lot of nothing 🤣

[covert latch]

What you mean

[covert latch]

I did

[night girder]

and discord is whitelisted by bot. and wiki. and tech websites.

[night girder]

So yeah kade, I think 2-3 out of the 10 cases get actual law.

[tough owl]

https://archlinux.org/ best whitelisted page

[twin dew]

And if that had worked, I would have called on moderators to close that loophole if possible.
Too much link scamming going on.

[night girder]

"The bees", "Ban glyphosate" and" Water and sanitation are a human right!"

So there is hope. 30% chance 😛

[covert latch]

🐟

[dire igloo]

He also once got mad cuz a party member pulled aggro on a strong NPC almost wiping the party.
Demanded that guy to be kicked and everything, super hostile.

Turns out, he was the one that aggro'd that NPC.
And suddenly, it was super okay and the right thing to do and nobody even understands why he's in the right.

Every single one of Thor's dramas would've been insignificant had he just gone "Okay, yes, I fucked up. I made a mistake and I am sorry."
Which for the level of influencer drama we see at times is one hell of a low bar to clear and he still fails

[dire igloo]

I'm referencing this btw, haven't seen Charlie's video
https://youtu.be/R-RaQZPzhqU

[covert latch]

He's a programmer with an immensely large ego

[dire igloo]

Making a fake DMCA claim against an indie dev and going to court about it simply cuz the game made fun of him.

Boasting his semi-related employment history like it gave him ultimate wisdom, dismissing and talking down on any critics

Basically scamming his Kickstarter backers by never actually delivering on the game they backed.

And quadrupling down on anything and everything he ever said, never admitting wrongdoing

Achieving his "proudest" experience through nepotism.

[dire igloo]

He's a content creator, I doubt any game dev company would hire him as a programmer (based on skill alone)

[night girder]

Yeah but that aggro, got someone killed 😄 But that was indeed the case.

[dire igloo]

Different incident btw, not the running away one

[night girder]

Anyway, don't want to shit talk the guy. Nothing against him. What I find worrisome is that he is popular and people seem to listen to him?

While I heard a lot of questionable statements from his side.

[dire igloo]

But still, huge ruckus - and while still an overreaction, the initial response before he was called out was more along the lines of how WoW players would react

[night girder]

Maybe that is his viewership model. Create drama every x months to keep up the views? 🤣

[dire igloo]

He's confident and he shares a lot of low level wisdom
Makes him popular among tech-interested commonfolk but frowned upon by actual enthusiasts

[night girder]

but he is a programmer, he must be right!

[charred relic]

He acts too smug for my taste

Especially when I'm fairly certain I'm smarter than him by a fair margin.

[covert latch]

He still programs, though

[night girder]

What type of stuff? If you know?

[covert latch]

Modifications and stuff

He does hacking

[night girder]

just read that he left Off Brand Games.

People were review bombing the games (because of his opinion).

[covert latch]

What game

[dire igloo]

And how good is his code?

Actual professional dev?
Or vibe coder?

[covert latch]

I don't know. I don't watch him

[dire igloo]

The ones published by offbrand games, the publishing company he was with

[covert latch]

The two current games have good reviews

[night girder]

steam probably removed the bombing.

[covert latch]

They could, but they don't

[covert latch]

Does he pirate software? 🧐 🤑

[night girder]

Makes you wonder why a game publisher wants to team up.

[covert latch]

With him?

[night girder]

Yeah, when the name is pirate software 😛

Like if my name was "Steal and wreck cars" and I would partner up with Ford or something.

[dire igloo]

He said that piracy is a pricing issue.
If people can't afford your game, they'll pirate it

So make the game affordable and you'll have less piracy

As long as the total profits don't decrease, a good business person will value higher sales numbers over higher per-sale profit

[night girder]

oh right, thats why the triple A industry is now charging 80 euro for a game.

[charred relic]

I could say something here that'll get some people real heated I'm sure

[dire igloo]

They're going the apple route

Increase prices until profits plummet

[charred relic]

But at 100 bucks that actually tracks with inflation... compared to when I was a child getting 2600 carts

[dire igloo]

https://tenor.com/view/do-it-star-wars-emperor-palpatine-palpatine-gif-799657800635657398

[night girder]

But then this statement makes no sense. Because why else would industry raise price, While you say they care about higher sale numbers.

[charred relic]

One mistake made was sticking at 60 for... how long?

it's like the game price froze there, inflation didn't.

[dire igloo]

Issue is: while game prices followed inflation, incomes didn't

[covert latch]

You're demonizing all game companies based on what some greedy companies are willing to do, but not all are going to follow

[charred relic]

irrelevant

[dire igloo]

Because with equal sales numbers, higher price means higher profit

[night girder]

So they care about higher per sale profit.

instead of higher sale numbers.

[covert latch]

If incomes, wages, kept increasing you still wouldn't be able to afford anything because prices would just keep rising until everything crashes

[charred relic]

Yeah wages keeping up doesn't mean jack squat here

and the point remains the same about 100 is adjusted for inflation

BUT that is also assuming a complete game, no extra money for DLC etc.

[dire igloo]

Yeah, cuz good game companies aren't charging $80 for a half-assed game.
I haven't seen many people complain about BG3 being a $60 title or HD2 costing $40.
If your game is worth the money, people will be happy to either pay full price or wait for a sale

[charred relic]

If you're going to charge 100 bucks a game then have 80 more in DLC on top of it then now you have an argument again

[covert latch]

$40 is a discount. It is still $60

[night girder]

also, I don't think there is a way to justify piracy.

[charred relic]

And trust me I don'tw ant to pay 100 bucks a game. But facts are facts... and as the kids used to say it is what it is

[night girder]

"Some people can't afford a car, so it's ok to steal one?"

"The car companies should lower the price so everyone can afford them then people wouldn't be stealing?" - logic.

[dire igloo]

They wouldn't because supply and demand has long left the chat.
When wheat supplies were low during COVID and Ukraine war, prices for bread and flour went up.
When wheat supplies recovered, prices stayed up

[covert latch]

Is wheat still in high-demand?

[dire igloo]

Helldivers 2 is a $40 live service game, its regular price is $40.
It never was $60

[charred relic]

And apparently some people are worried about gaming dying

[covert latch]

Ok 😔

[charred relic]

oh noez! I'll have to survive another video game crash... whatever shall i do

[dire igloo]

There is. Corporate greed and abandonware.
Piracy is legally wrong but oftentimes morally right.

[night girder]

I don't agree. If you are pro piracy, you are pro stealing.
And that logic applies to everything in life.

[charred relic]

Eventually we'll get better games because of all this.

You'll see...

[covert latch]

Doesn't justify it, though. Just don't buy the game

[charred relic]

It's almost a direct repeat...

[dire igloo]

Not compared to its supply, no.
So why ain't prices going down?

Same for US egg prices skyrocketing: bird flu didn't kill nearly enough supply to justify the price increases.
The industry had an excuse to ramp prices for higher profits so they took the chance and went with it.

The number 1 factor behind price increases is corporate greed.

[night girder]

The only reason why piracy still exists, is because there are no consequences.

The moment everyone has to plug in their real EID to use a computer system. I wonder what happens to piracy.
Then it's directly traceable to you.

[covert latch]

Is wheat still in high-demand?

[charred relic]

heh the data center i rent out of probably huses more seed boxes on this side of the planet than anywhere... if not the world

[night girder]

And another reason piracy exists, is because law goes for suppliers and not takers.

because they just lack the manpower.

[charred relic]

copyright letters just get /dev/null'd

[dire igloo]

Except a car is gone when you steal it.
A video game is not.

If I pirate a Disney movie, it's still Disney's movie.
Ownership doesn't transfer to me.

And let's not forget: if buying isn't owning, piracy isn't theft.

[night girder]

That's why we got Netflix etc. Because the industry wanted to try something else to combat piracy. And it worked.

[covert latch]

"Corporate greed"

🥀

[charred relic]

Some stuff I don't feel guilty about "pirating"... for instance do you know how many times I've purchased some albums

[covert latch]

Not every corporation is greedy

[charred relic]

vinyl, cassette, cd... digital

in some cases my brother has some 8 tracks in there too

Sorry not worry I refuse to pay for th Dark Side of the Moon... again

[night girder]

Does that matter? People need to get paid.

A car factory has so many people working in it and getting paid.
If the cars all getting stolen before sold, they have issues.

A game company has so many people working in it and getting paid.
If a game gets pirated, they lose revenue and they have issues.

It not ethical.

[covert latch]

You'd have to understand how economics and the way of business to see what they're doing, if it isn't so clear. And I'm not qualified for that

[dire igloo]

Stealing takes something away.

Also, you absolutely have to differentiate who you are taking from:
Walmart has shoplifting insurance, they won't lose anything if you steal from them.
If I steal a person's lunch, they have nothing to eat.
If I steal a lunch deal at Aldi, they don't lose anything but a number in their quarterly report

[night girder]

And in the end, it hurts the hard work force of a gaming company, not the managers. They will get their bonuses. And then lay off whole teams of developers.

[charred relic]

There's so few games I even care to play... Not really that expensive to buy them.

[night girder]

So it's ok to steal from Walmart is what you are saying?

[covert latch]

You're no better than the greedy corporations that you're against just by stealing

[dire igloo]

What games are actually bought in today's times, lol?
If The Crew or Switch 2 taught us anything, it's that we don't own shit even if we pay for it

[charred relic]

With something iffy I do like to try things.... like Shapez got given out on Epic at some point I guess because it was in my library. Turns out I hate it.

[covert latch]

There's a lot more options than just The Crew and Switch 2

[dire igloo]

Abandonware.
Give me one good reason why abandonware should not be pirated.

[night girder]

C'mon, lets not beat around the bush.

We all know what piracy really is. And it's rarely that use case.

[covert latch]

Abandoned games?

[charred relic]

Well that's kind of how I feel about certain albums I've had. Nobody is actually making oney from Dark Side now... the band gets a few cents and the record company.

The juice has already really been squeezed on that one... in my case squeezed several times util I'm shrivled up like a raisin over here

[dire igloo]

Yeah, because for $10 a month you could watch anything you wanted in good quality with a nice user experience and zero legal worries. Plus, you could share the cost with your friends.
And now you pay $15 for a woefully incomplete library because everyone and their dog has their own streaming service now.

The ONLY reason why streaming services were ever successful was because they're more convenient than piracy

[charred relic]

I have a huge collection of retro DOS stuff but you could maybe even buy 1% of that stuff if you're lucky

[night girder]

If you want to stick it to "the man" fine, pirate. But don't call it ethical. That's my 2 cents 😄

[charred relic]

So in those cases there isn't any choice other than "piracy", some games are just dead and can't even be found for sale unless it's some old physical copy you dig up

[night girder]

Exactly and it worked! And I know when there were rumors about ads on Netflix. The first thing people said in the comments;

"yar yar back to the high sea mateys!"

[dire igloo]

Okay, and? Doesn't change anything about the fact that the number 1 price increaser isn't some war or famine or drought, it's greed

[covert latch]

Ok and. That's an issue, doesn't mean you should stoop to their level

[night girder]

and they run on your system? 🤨

[charred relic]

Yes

There's this neat thing called... DOSBox

Pretty nifty... runs most DOS stuff

[covert latch]

If it doesn't have a DRM then it'll run

[night girder]

it's an argument used a lot, people want "old games" to be able to be playable forever. But that's not always possible because a computer, is a complex system.

[charred relic]

heh

[night girder]

What about drivers? And the game isn't updated in 20 years.

[dire igloo]

You can't compare cars to games.
In an ideal world, once the game is done, it will keep generating profits without anyone having to work on it.
Once a car factory builds and sells the car, it's gone. They can't sell it a second or a third time.

Digital goods are incomparable to physical ones because they can be replicated.

[charred relic]

it handles allthat

[covert latch]

Emulators

[charred relic]

The games back then didn't get updated

lol updated jahahhahahaha

If that game was broken out of the boxes there wa a major problem Houston

There were no patches... or updates

[night girder]

https://tenor.com/view/doubt-press-x-la-noire-meme-x-button-gif-19259237

[dire igloo]

Okay, and that makes it my fault how exactly?
Blame the managers and shareholders, not the customers

And besides: if I pirate a game, how likely was I to have been a customer?
How many people would just not play the game if they couldn't pirate it?

[charred relic]

I know it's shocking but games used to ship functional

[night girder]

Huh? I never pointed my finger at you did I? I just said what I would do and how I think.
How is it my fault that we think different? 😄

[charred relic]

and complete...

[dire igloo]

I'm arguing that people should stop defending greedy executives for being capitalist assholes. They're not on your side, they'd sell you in the blink of an eye

[night girder]

👆 I stand by this. (and notice the end, it's my two cents, not a truth).

[covert latch]

You're blaming everyone for the actions of the higher people

[dire igloo]

Games that are no longer being sold by their publishers.
Games you can't obtain through any legal means.
Games the company has deemed unprofitable to the point they won't even take your money if you offered it to them.

[charred relic]

Piracy is rarely ethetical

Just because you can doesn't mean you should nor make it OK

[night girder]

And that's fine. One can pirate. And also say, well it's not ethical what I am doing. They aren't exclusive to one another.

[covert latch]

I guess pirating is fine for that then

[charred relic]

and it doesn't matter how evil the corporation is, you can just choose to not consume it at all

i mean if they're that bad why woudl you want to anyhow right 🙂

[dire igloo]

Don't call it morally wrong when the actually morally wrong part is piracy being viable/necessary in the first place

[night girder]

I don't want to upset you fireworker2000 🙂

[charred relic]

I can pirate pretty much anything... thing Civ 6 has given then fits but that'll get that too eventually.

[night girder]

And that's why the topic is forbidden by the mods 🤣

[charred relic]

I choose not to

[covert latch]

What topic

[dire igloo]

In a fight David vs Goliath, you really want to blame David for using a slingshot?

[night girder]

what topic do you think? 🤣 What we talking about for like 30 minutes.

[covert latch]

Insane

[covert latch]

Are we getting into meta ethics 🤔

[night girder]

Yeah, insane that a gaming company doesn't want piracy discussions in their discord getting out of hand 🤣

[charred relic]

speak sotly but carry a big stone

[covert latch]

|| It has been done ||

[charred relic]

and the meds are kicking in, the ritual of pee begins!

[dire igloo]

You said that piracy is morally wrong.
I believe that it is the morally right thing to do given specific circumstances (mainly: you wouldn't be a customer otherwise).

By saying piracy harms hard-working people, you're saying that my advocacy for it promotes harm to working people.

But it's not the piracy that harms the employees, isn't it?
It's the executive greed, CEOs paying out their bonuses while firing entire divisions.
That's the whole point of bonuses, if the company is doing poorly, you the CEO get less money. And yet, you still get your full payment while the company suffers even more

[covert latch]

Greed, again

[night girder]

So, you want to pirate, fucking over the working class, to make a statement to "the man".
I just don't get this type of logic.
And you hope that the managers think; "Oh no, they pirate our game, we gotta lay off whole teams now, maybe we should give it away for free".

[dire igloo]

I'm not?
I'm blaming executives, shareholders and turbocapitalists for causing an economy that harms consumers and working people alike

[night girder]

If you want change. Don't pirate. Do the same as "Stop Killing Games".

Take the legal route.

Real pirates, used the same logic back in the day. And pirates in the real world, are still illegal. And killed.

Right now, there are pirates on the sea. And right now, there is military on the sea hunting them.

[dire igloo]

Because the game is still fun to play?
I don't pirate because I want to stick it to the corpo, I pirate cuz I simply see no other viable option.

I have literally reached the point where half the shows I wanted to watch I would've had to pirate because none of the streaming services I'm subscribed to had them.
I'm already paying like 50€ a month to legally watch what I want to watch and I STILL CAN'T

[dire igloo]

The really funny part is when you talk to indie devs and they tell you they'd rather have you pirate their game than buy it on g2a or kinguin

[covert latch]

Lets take this up with meta ethics. First we must define what "harm" is in this context and then define the positions and what led up to such greed

[night girder]

g2a and kinguin is ethical even worse (imo)*.

[covert latch]

Yes because it gives them more recognition for someone to eventually buy their game

[dire igloo]

No. Greedy rich fucks want to rake in money so they create a market situation that leaves me with only two choices:
Piracy or abstinence.

And yes, employees will suffer.
But a company is nothing without its employees.
A game studio can do jack shit without devs, designers, artists, etc.
So if a single person pirating your game ruins your company, you shouldn't have run it to begin with. And if multiple people pirate your game, take the fucking hint.

And yes, I agree that I'm contributing to ruining these people's livelihoods.
But I'm not the one that created this awful situation.
Blame the game, not the player.

[dire igloo]

And these pirates steal.
Software piracy isn't stealing, it can't be.

If a pirate enters your ship and takes your cargo, that's a transfer of ownership. You can no longer sell that cargo, it's gone.
If I download your game from an unofficial third party, you are still the owner of that game. You can still sell the game, it never disappeared from your servers.
You probably didn't even notice me downloading it

[covert latch]

Are you unemployed?

[covert latch]

Bruh says transfer of ownership to just mean stealing

[dire igloo]

And my advocacy for piracy is exactly why I think this petition needs to happen.
The concept of abandonware needs to go extinct.

[night girder]

The act of taking feloniously the personal property of another without his consent and knowledge; theft; larceny.

is games personal property, yes. Do you take it without consent, yes.

[covert latch]

A transfer of ownership relies on a mutual agreement between two parties with another party to verify the legality of the transference

[night girder]

and I have to look up what feloniously means 🤣

felon ... that I get.

Having the quality of felony; malignant; malicious; villainous; traitorous; perfidious; in a legal sense, done with intent to commit a crime.

[dire igloo]

No, I work in the IT department of a government agency

[night girder]

Ok, I get it now haha 🤣 You see the goverment steal from us everyday.

[covert latch]

Why're you working with the government if you have such opinions

[night girder]

Work is work 🤷‍♂️ Gotta have food. Pay the bills. Who knows. a lot of reason that people do a job that isn't their first choice. Not saying this is case for fireworker2000.

[covert latch]

Goes against his morality, though

[dire igloo]

The key point here is the definition of stealing.

If I pirate a Disney movie, who is the one making profits off of bluray sales, streaming licenses, movie tickets, etc?
Me or Disney?

If I stole your cargo and you could still sell it, either I didn't actually steal it or you didn't actually sell it.

[night girder]

I posted the definition of stealing 😒 And from my point of view, the term piracy does fit under stealing.

[covert latch]

🥹 😕 🙁 ☹️

[dire igloo]

No, I don't. I don't take it.
At no point in the whole process of piracy do I ever get into the position of "this is my game now, not yours"

[night girder]

Yes, you download.

Without their consent. And play their property, without their consent.

If you pay, they give you consent.

That's just how trading works.

You can't pay a visit to a sex worker, and then not pay and say "hey I didn't take anything", so I am not stealing.
Even for services you have to pay. Else it's stealing.

[covert latch]

"This my cargo now, not yours"

[night girder]

You can even steal ideas. Which is also illegal (in some cases). Intellectual property.

but if the definition of "what is stealing" is different to me and you, I don't think we can have a discussion about it.
Because it's the cornerstone of why it's unethical to pirate, atleast for my side of the argument.

[covert latch]

||@dire iglooI think you would like Spider-Man 2099 because he fights against unchecked capitalism, which is totalitarianism || 😼 🤑

[covert latch]

We're getting into meta ethics 😱

[dire igloo]

Bit of a language barrier there.
I was using the term transfer of ownership to mean any act through which another person gains control over the item

[covert latch]

Ok

[dire igloo]

I don't. And while I do see plenty of wasteful usage of taxpayer money, I think that most of the injustice comes from people benefiting disproportionately more the richer they are

[covert latch]

You're not angry with your German government for increasing your taxes?

[dire igloo]

Because they pay, the job is safe and I get to see the real world impact my work has?

I'm not working for some executive lining their pockets with half the money I earn, I'm working for a guy that approves subsidy funds or a lady that handles wage payments

Again, hate the game not the player

[dire igloo]

How?

[covert latch]

Just because you're making a good amount of money makes it all good?

[soft bloom]

I think this sends wrong message, or does it? 😉

[night girder]

FFS!

When did he post that?

That's how we started this discussion. Because of Pirate Software.

[soft bloom]

I will assume you talk about my msg?

lol. who is "he"?

[night girder]

Oh it's mugthief. Though it was pirate software posting on their channel.

We already talked about that. It's never his fault.

Although the whole internet looks at him.

It's not even doublingdoubling down anymore.

[dire igloo]

If I pay, they still own it. That's literally how that works, I'm not buying ownership of the game, I'm paying for a license to use it.
So how can it be theft if not even paying means I own it?

And let's not forget: I am not taking it from you, because you still have 100% of everything you had before.
There is not a single thing, not one line of code, nothing, that's missing from your company after I pirated that game.

Your definition fails because I don't take it.
If I drive your car, you don't have that car for the time I'm driving it.
But if created an exact copy of your car out of thin air and drove that, you'd still have your car and could do with it whatever you want.

[covert latch]

I don't read Russian 😢

[dire igloo]

I'm paying for their time and I did take that time

[night girder]

So you never pirated a physical copy of a game?

Because if you bought the physical game, you own it pretty much.

[covert latch]

False equivalency

[dire igloo]

Which piracy isn't because nobody ever pirates a game and says "look at this game I made"
I don't claim ownership of the intellectual property

[night girder]

No, my point of that argument was this.

You seem to think stealing is "taking somethign physical without paying it".
I am saying; "It's not. It's way broader than that."

[dire igloo]

The ONLY reason why piracy is unethical is because game studio employees can lose their livelihoods if too many people do it.
And at that point: hate the game, not the player. Criticize the industry for making such a volatile market

[night girder]

Let me put it like this; if you go to court for piracy, and say what you say right now to a judge.
I doubt they follow your arguments/logics. That's just not* how the world works.

[covert latch]

Fireworker is misinterpreting the definitions

[dire igloo]

I'm angry with them not spending it properly

[night girder]

Why is this important? Because law and ethics are close together.
The law is there, because it's just not right (ethical).

We have laws that say you can't murder someone. Why? It's not ethical.

We have laws that say you can't steal. Why? It's not ethical etc.

And pretty sure there is a law that says that piracy is illegal.

[dire igloo]

Fuck no, it's not a good amount of money. I could make more if I worked at some company.
German government, especially in the IT sector, are actually underpaying you.
But it's much more ethically defendable than most companies I could be working for

I see it as working in the public service sector

[covert latch]

🥺

[charred relic]

A package has been detected in my package zone

And it didn't even buy me dinner first...

[night girder]

Euh, is that code for something else?

The americans english is something weird to me lol.

[dire igloo]

I have bought plenty physical copies of games, but never reproduced any. Maybe creating a backup CD to prevent data loss if the original is scratched.

And even back then, the actual cost of piracy to the company (not loss of revenue, actual money they lost) was like $2.50 for the CD, cover booklet and casing on the copy they never sold.

[night girder]

You said:

"And let's not forget: I am not taking it from you, because you still have 100% of everything you had before."

Which in hindsight, now I read it again, is also not true. You are taking their profit.

You also argued "if I pirate a game, the company still owns it. So I didn't steal it." which I brought up IP etc.

[dire igloo]

Wdym false equivalency?

If anything, comparing piracy to car theft is the actual false equivalency.
If I drive your car, you can no longer work as an Uber driver. Your service can no longer be provided.
If I pirate your game, you can still sell it, your service was not affected at all other than me no longer paying for them - which I might've never done in the to first place

[night girder]

Then you argued that it was neccesary. Because of online games that we download, which I countered with saying; you probably downloaded games, that were physical available.

And the company couldn't remove from your access.

And then I said I am pretty sure, that every argument you made, wouldn't stick in court.

[covert latch]

I forgot

This argument is just going in circles

[night girder]

and I think I know why. Different opinion on definition of stealing.

How you can have different opinions on a definition is a bit of a mystery for me 😄

And also different opinions about is piracy (stealing) ethical or not.

[covert latch]

It's not the opinion it's the definitions

[charred relic]

Outside of fringe cases it's never ethical heh

[night girder]

You know what. This is a case of "The end justifies the means".

It's alright to pirate, because of the end (it's justified, corporate greed, too high prices, etc).

[charred relic]

again if it's something that cannot be obtained another way or what have you then why would i care either way but yeah

generally speaking, never ethical

[dire igloo]

I am saying "stealing is taking something away from someone" and I'm saying "piracy does not take something away from someone"

The only harm that piracy does is loss of revenue by me not being a customer.
Maybe add a few cents of server costs if I manage to still get it from you.
However, if I would've never been a customer in the first place, there is literally zero harm done to the business - they didn't lose any revenue because there was no potential revenue to begin with.

A good example: you're working as an Uber driver.
If I take your car and drive around in it, I am harming you by preventing you from selling your service to others.
If I create a copy of your car and drive around in that copy, the only harm you experience is me not being a customer of yours.

[night girder]

And most know that the end doesn't always justify the means. (Looking at you History).

[charred relic]

Well I was about to say that makes it also basically never justifyable

[covert latch]

You're diminishing the work that the developers have put into said game by pirating it instead of the profit paying them

[dire igloo]

Didn't I start this endeavor by saying that piracy is legally wrong?
If I go into court, it doesn't matter what is right or wrong, it only matters what is legal or illegal

[night girder]

legality is morally/ethical based.

You said you dont agree with me when I said; piracy is unethical, morally wrong.

If I misunderstood that, then this whole discussion was for nothing 😄

So if a murderer get's convicted by a court, would you say "it doesn't matter if murder is right or wrong, it only matter it's legal or illegal?"
No, it's illegal BECAUSE it's immortal to murder someone. Unless there is self defense etc. That's why there is a court.

Or it would be legal because self defense is MORALLY JUSTIFYABLE.

[charred relic]

"sticking it to the man" doesn't work either because it's the lower folks that always pay the price ultimately

[dire igloo]

And that is a gigantic misconception.

Marital rape was legal until the 90s.
German cybercrime law punishes ownership of hacking software.
Money forgery has a higher maximum punishment than rape

Law tries to follow moral, but there is a fundamental divide: the law also aims to uphold the capitalist foundation of society.
And when morals and capitalism are in contradiction, law tends to favor capitalism over morals.

[charred relic]

"the man" isn't really hurt by it

[night girder]

I think even if you steal because you were starving, a judge would look different at, then you stealing a porsche car?
One is neccesary to survive. The other isn't.

Law and morals/ethics aren't two seperate entities.

[dire igloo]

I'm not.
I wouldn't have bought the game to begin with.
I'm not distributing my copy to someone else.

[night girder]

Stupid question; I wonder myslelf.

Are morals the same as ethics? 😒

Because I am using both words now and I am confused myself now lol 😄

[charred relic]

But your honor I needed this copy of Madden to live, I was gonna video game starve to death

[dire igloo]

I don't claim to own the IP, it's still with the company.
If I pirate a game, I'm saying "look, I downloaded GTA 5" and not "look, I made GTA 5"

[charred relic]

Some stuff actually annoys me when people pirate it like Reaper

[covert latch]

You still pirated a distributed copy of the game they developed

[night girder]

True, but it's their property, You can't just use it nilly willy.

[charred relic]

or mIRC... I paid like 20 bucks for that app in like the 90's

key STILL works heh...

[dire igloo]

Not about stealing, I agree with that definition.
About what piracy does

[soft bloom]

where do you russian? lmao

[charred relic]

And it's something they actually neeeded/used to get on IRC at all to begin with

And Reaper... cmon a DAW of that quality for 60 bucks

just fucking pay for it...

[dire igloo]

I'm not. The publishers and executives are

[covert latch]

In the text

[charred relic]

60 bucks for reaper they are practically giving it to you anyhow TBH

[dire igloo]

Court is there to uphold the law.
Law is there to uphold society.

If society deems an act immoral, lawmakers can decide to criminalize it.
Not all morally wrong acts are illegal - see cum-ex or Jens Spahn's deals on COVID masks.

[dire igloo]

Which, again, you should blame the shareholders for, not me

I'm trying to say that piracy is a symptom. Not the issue

[night girder]

If I go into a store, and steal a handbag that's worth 60 dollar. That company lost 60 dollars.
If I pirate a game that is worth 60 dollar. That company lost 60 dollars.

How can be the first one be stealing. And the second not?

[dire igloo]

I use them interchangeably, tho ethics is more of a definitive system of morals

[dire igloo]

Why not?

[covert latch]

You guys are chasing each others tails which these subjective definitions, you need to objectively define them

[night girder]

Because both companies lost property (revenue).

Because the handbag, or game, are just the intermedium for profit.

[dire igloo]

And it never left their possession. I never took it

[night girder]

Which is being what is really being stolen.

And with less proffit, less of the pie to share with the rest of the company, lower wages etc.

[night girder]

Yeah, that's called a discussion 🤣

I have my point of view/argument, I try to explain it as best as I can (and with language barrier).
And fireworker is doing the same.

[covert latch]

You're being disingenuous

[dire igloo]

Once again: digital goods can be infinitely reproduced. Physical goods can not.
If I had a sci-fi device that could create an exact copy of any item, I could go into that store, clone the $60 handbag and walk out with it. The actual original bag never left the store.
And there was no money left because I didn't stop the store from selling the bag to anyone else.
And the store didn't lose money on me either because I wouldn't have bought that bag in the first place.

And besides: if you go into a store and steal a handbag worth $60, that store enters that handbag as an item lost to shoplifting and at the end of the month, their shoplifting insurance recoups them.

[night girder]

Who said again? You don't discuss to win. You discuss to learn other perspectives? 🤔

doesn't mean you have to agree with those "other perspectives".

[dire igloo]

The issue is: while we agree on the definition of stealing, we do not agree on whether it applies to piracy

[night girder]

Btw, google this topic. First article I hit was this is a very common discussion.

[night girder]

True, you didn't stop the bag being sold to anyone else. But you didn't pay. What if no other costumer comes along? (hyphothetical).
And what if everyone thinks like this? Then there is 0 paying costumers.

[dire igloo]

The big mental hindrance here is finding a real world equivalent to piracy.
Because there is no physical IRL scenario in which gaining control of an item maintains its owner's control over it

[night girder]

But let's pretend there is a device that can clone the bag and it stays in the shops ownership.
Now everyone does this. Is that good?

[dire igloo]

Then that store experiences no comparable harm since I wasn't a customer to begin with and if they go under, they also had a really shitty business model relying on the sale of that one singular item

[dire igloo]

And if everyone thinks like this, the store has to rethink its business model

Mind you, that sci-fi item cloner is an illegal tool to use still

[night girder]

No no, let's assume the shop has a stock. 1 million bags. But everyone just comes in and clones the one bag on display and walks away

I mean, no shop owns a single bag. They always have stock. Maybe some very fancy stuff not.

[dire igloo]

Well, four things to consider:

1. That cloner device is illegal to use. People will pay for the convenience of avoiding legal trouble, regardless of whether their morals say it's right.
2. These cloner things aren't really easy to use. People will pay for the convenience of just taking the bag and using it.
3. There is art and craftsmanship going into that bag, people will pay the creator of the bag so they can produce new designs (instead of having to pursue a different career). The software equivalent of this would be donationware.
4. Let's assume the cloners are legal and easy to use and there was no artist to support (even voluntarily): how did the store think that selling the bag was a good idea?

[soft bloom]

there is none

[dire igloo]

Morally, there is no point in supporting a futile business strategy

[dire igloo]

Then that shop is just stupid.

[night girder]

But that's how a game company works. They don't have a stock, but they spend as much money as the bag shop to get the goods.

A shop has to acquire/produce one million bags.
A gaming company has to pay people for YEARS before the company can profit from the product.

So both made financial commitments and want something in return.

So I don't think either is stupid. Else we wouldn't have bags or games in the first place.

[soft bloom]

what is Thor "not" at fault for?

[dire igloo]

Except the store acquired a single bag for a ginormous price and they're using a legal version of the cloner to sell it

[night girder]

There is a rumor that GTA 6 costs $2 billion to develop.
Let's assume that's true.

Now everyone pirates the game.
You saying that morally correct? Because RockStar is stupid to make it in the first place, or because they business model is wrong?

[dire igloo]

If the store paid to have a million bags produced, they'd have to pay extra if they wanted to sell more.
Digital goods don't work that way

[dire igloo]

Depends on the circumstances.
Why do people pirate the game?

Does Rockstar charge $250 for a legitimate copy?
Does Rockstar say "I'll borrow you the bag for $100 but it's not actually yours and I can and will take it from you whenever I want to, without any reason"?
Does Rockstar say "dear Europeans, sorry but your government says we can't sell it to you, so you won't get this game"?

[night girder]

Server costs, trouble shooting costs (you have to pay someone), you have to have support, moderators maybe, you have to keep paying developers to update the game, provide new content to the game ... yes a game company works like that.

artists, 3D modelers, audio people, voice actors, ... there is so many different people involved.

[dire igloo]

Distribution is handled by steam which after the $100 launch fee takes a cut based on revenue made

[dire igloo]

Well, if it's live service, you can create models for continued revenue.
Season passes and whatnot

And if you made a finished game, you don't need to continue paying people for working on the game.
It's like saying the bag shop had to continue paying the designers to fix holes in the fabric.

[night girder]

Well, they pirate it anyway.

And there are illegal servers for live service games.

So how can they get continued revenue if people keep dancing around it.

[dire igloo]

None of them would need payment after the game was finished

[night girder]

"And if you made a finished game, you don't need to continue paying people for working on the game."

In this day and age? yes you do 🤣

[dire igloo]

That starts a whole new discussion:
If people fulfill a demand of illegal goods, is that morally wrong?

I'm taking issue with the providers of those illegal servers because they are actually harming the business.

However, can you blame a drug dealer for serving the demand?

[night girder]

@charred relic mentioned it earlier. How old games got shipped with less bugs, as a finished product so they don't need patches. And that is correct.
But let's not forget, those games weren't advanced as some of these modern games are. NOT IN THE SLIGHTEST.

Modern games have WAY more mechanics and things happening at the same time. Making it harder to test every possible scenario.
And that leads to bugs. So you need to patch it up. Or you will get review bombed. And since people paid for the game, you are kinda obligated to do your best to get the game in a working state.

[dire igloo]

Because companies constantly release unfinished games.
When I bought a physical CD copy of a game back in my childhood, there were no updates to the game.
The sold version was the only one I would ever had

Which, once again, bad business model.
Keeping the designer on payroll to patch faulty fabric in the handbag

[night girder]

you know what my point of view is, both are wrong 🤣
I get the why. But it's still wrong.

[charred relic]

Games of modern complexity couldn't have even existed back then

at least not reasonably because everything would always have some bugs

some game breaking

im sure there are more notes in the code for this game than actual code in some old DOS games lol

*comments

[dire igloo]

There are scenarios in which I consider piracy to be morally wrong - primarily greed. If you would've bought the game legitimately and could afford to but didn't, that's wrong.

However, the majority of piracy happens for reasons that I consider morally right.
Main one being lack of alternatives, like with abandonware (cloning a handbag that the store isn't selling even when you ask them to) or poverty (being unable to afford a legitimate copy or unable to justify it relative to cost of living)

[charred relic]

And I still say the game industry having a crash wouldn't be a bad thing...

🙂

[night girder]

That's just cruel. Because, you know how that ends?

The normal people get fucked.

[charred relic]

Nah, things will improve because of it.

[night girder]

And the rich stay rich.

[charred relic]

They did before.

[night girder]

Man, that's now how the world works I believe.

[charred relic]

The 80's crash was... for about the same reasons too

[night girder]

If gaming industry crashes, the normal teams get layed off.

[charred relic]

too many shit quality games people were getting stuck with it, got tired of wasting money

[night girder]

wtf, the 80s?

[dire igloo]

To continue the drug equivalence:
When there are addicts looking to buy drugs, there will be dealers fulfilling that demand.
You can't blame the addicts for seeking drugs, they're addicted. And you can't blame the dealers for dealing, the market would still exist without them.

The only way to break the cycle is to stop people from becoming addicted and to help addicts recover.

[charred relic]

Yes

[night girder]

You comparing gaming industry from the 80s to now?

You know how big it is now?

[charred relic]

the great crash... of 83

[night girder]

And how much money is involved.

[dire igloo]

It's not how the world should work.
It's not how I want the world to work.
But it's the face this world has shown time and time again.

[charred relic]

And how many games are failing?

[night girder]

Eh, I don't want to see a crash in the gaming industry at all.
I do want to see changes. Better pay for developers. But not a crash.
That means people will be jobless. It sucks. And like I said, the rich stay rich.

[charred relic]

This is what happened before almost exactly...

An oversaturated market filled with sub par and in some cases buggy products

[dire igloo]

If change isn't happening, do you want things to continue as they are or would you rather have everything screech to a grinding halt?

[charred relic]

What do you think that silly NES "seal of approval" wasabout?

They were trying to ease consumer minds after the crash lol

By saying oh hey look we have reviewed this, it's not total trash!

[night girder]

How do you know change can't happen in the future? Just have to be patience. Or find other ways to put pressure. But not hope for a full crash of a whole industry.

Wonder if you would say that if you worked in that industry.

[charred relic]

As shitty as Nintendo is... they did help save gaming at one point...

[night girder]

We got indie game companies saving us right now 😛

[dire igloo]

We're seeing it in esports now:
The big venture capital bubble from late COVID has burst, a lot of orgs have left the scene and a lot of teams have struggled to keep their footing.
But slowly, the industry is recovering with more sustainable practices and better community service because of it

[charred relic]

Well that was a balloon people should have seen 10 miles away tbh

[dire igloo]

I'm not saying it can't happen.
But unless there's a major shakeup, I'm saying it won't happen.

[dire igloo]

I've literally told my coworkers that I want my agency to fail miserably for its administration to realize that they can't continue running it like they are rn

And while I know that this will have a direct negative impact on me, I hope the recovery from the fallout creates a better environment

[covert latch]

Spoiler: It won't

[dire igloo]

I don't wish it for the German people and I don't wish it for my coworkers.
All of these people do not deserve to experience the negative consequences of a failure like this.
But I still want this crash to happen, maybe not as a total wreckage but as a violent wakeup call

[soft bloom]

do a smart thing and use language detection

[covert latch]

I see those Russian characters

[dire igloo]

Ehhhh, depends. A lot of the issues are from lack of communication across management levels.

Which a crash like this would quickly reveal

[covert latch]

Ukranian 🥀

[dire igloo]

It's Cyrillic and it's an alphabet used by many languages

[covert latch]

Obviously

[dire igloo]

It's like saying that you're seeing latin because we're writing with these latin characters

[soft bloom]

if you want to joke about culture at least be educated about it

[covert latch]

*language

How is Zelenskyy doing? I heard he took bribes during the "war"

[soft bloom]

idk how he is doing but I hear explosions right now

[covert latch]

You should move to the other side of Ukraine