off-topic-tech

[willow pike]

never marry your brands

they will always betray you

[charred relic]

I installed 2x16... i also wanted to be able to add two more later to go to 64

[willow pike]

amd would betray us if they could (not happening medium term, intel still sell enough, nvidia are 90% marketshare)

[charred relic]

There are brands I trust and buy 100% of the time 😄

[visual tree]

For 7800X ryzen 5600x should be enought but I am not sure about 9700 though

[charred relic]

But not computer shit lol

[twin dew]

Would still be faster, just with lesser spread.

[charred relic]

I saw that cpu running a 9070, you need more

[twin dew]

But that CPU upgrade can be done later.

[charred relic]

the 5800x3d would get over the hump though

[twin dew]

5800X3D is discontinued.

[charred relic]

can still buy them here

[twin dew]

5700X3D is available, and would be good buy.

[willow pike]

5800x3d just about handles a 7900XTX. it should also handle 9070. not sure about 5700X3D

[charred relic]

i was either going to have to go 5800x3d or do a full upgrade and I didn't want to full around with going all the way to the absolute dead end of my AM4 setup

[twin dew]

What is this "handle"?
It just affects the total performance, and in most games it isn't straight cutoff.

And higher the settings and higher the resolution, less CPU you need.

[visual tree]

At least my seasonic focus gx-750 should be enough for rx 9070

Although not for some ultimate RX 9070 edition which demands 900 W but I am not planning on getting that

Don't know the name of that edition

Oh, the "red devil" edition

[pure karma]

Yup 64GB is the new sweet spot to have extra leeway

The holdback on vram hasn’t been helping either

[verbal raft]

FML

[jagged snow]

I'd disagree on that one

[night girder]

Don't you lose some headroom for OC with 2x 32GB sticks?

[twin dew]

Because 48GB and 96GB sticks are better ?)

[twin dew]

Yes, but how many people do insane RAM OC?

[night girder]

you told me that, so it's your own information circling back at you 🤣 So you could ask that question to yourself

[pure karma]

Not me

[twin dew]

Yes, there is loss from 2R compared to 1R in the max frequency.
But for AMD, you can do 6000MT/s on both for example.

I would expect that getting that 6400MT/s in 1:1 would be easier on 1R sticks.

Personally running 2x 32GB 2Rx8 sticks at 6000MT/s on 7800X3D.

At 30-36-38-48-86 at 1T without GearDown Mode.

[night girder]

Yeah, that was a smooth process right? 😉

[twin dew]

Yes?
If I didn't manually tighten every fucking timing down to absolute bottom.

[night girder]

... right ....

[twin dew]

That timing testing was the slow part.

Could have just put in the BuildZoid timings as is and then just worked the primaries, as this was non-XMP 4800MT/s JEDEC set.
So by default all the primaries would have been 48 on 6000MT/s IIRC.

Yup, 48-48-48-96-144 on auto timings at 6000MT/s.

Full auto and 6000MT/s auto as comparison:

Getting it to run at 6000MT/s was just setting RAM voltages to standard XMP 1.35V and setting frequency.

And then limiting the VSOC down from what MB wanted it to set automatically (1.25V)

Also VDDP down from 1.15V MB wanted to put it at to 0.95V

For maximum OC, you get Hynix die 2x24GB set.

On AM4, same thing where 1R and 2R can both almost always do the sweet spot 3600MT/s or 3800MT/s.
After which you cannot go higher as IF cannot do more.

The other side to that "1x1R per channel clocks best" is "Is it likely that the RAM frequency you want is at upper edge of what your CPU and MB can do?"

So for AM4 and AM5: mostly doesn't matter.
For Intel at least on DDR5, often matters on 4-slot MBs if you aren't going for RAM clocks in under 5600-5800MT/s range.

Because 13th and 14th gen Intel CPUs have very variable IMC quality, and Intel doesn't bin for that.
And the official max for 1/2x1R per channel on 4-slot MB is just 4400MT/s.

So if your CPU will work at 6000MT/s RAM speed is already a gamble for 1x1R per channel.

[wanton orchid]

you do need
things like Diablo 4 + chrome + Spotify + discord on fresh windows already shit itself with 16GB unfortunately (fuck electron apps BTW)

miss when game would run on a sim card

now they have to get a sms from your Google entreprise account manager at each frame rendering so they can show you the fps counter overlay

[visual tree]

https://www.reddit.com/r/google/comments/1j0if81/googles_sergey_brin_says_engineers_should_work/

Don't expect AI to replace them though...

And he thinks working 60 hours a week is a "sweet spot" of productivity, what a dimwit...

[charred relic]

Think I'll add more RAM...

[manic cipher]

Now that is a really old style there.

[willow pike]

handmade, bespoke, gourmet ram

[languid gulch]

is that apollo memory?

[languid gulch]

i wonder what else used rope memory

[visual tree]

Am I lucky or unlucky not being born when commands were given through punch cards?

[alpine scarab]

Today's topic: virtual desktops

[rocky yarrow]

Hehe

[alpine scarab]

🗿

[novel rose]

I am still not used to windows explorer having tabs

I still keep having multiple explorer windows open

[alpine scarab]

why are you using windows explorer

[rocky yarrow]

So yeah, I've got a desktop for email, one for browsing, one for audio playing, one for internet chat, and then a couple which are my general terminal windows whose purpose varies depending on what I'm working on

I do tend to open random Python interpreters for doing math or other random tasks which I often forget to close, so occasionally I've gotta go reap a bunch of xterms or whatever

(Yeah, I'm on Linux, not Windows)

[alpine scarab]

My setup is always
[1] Kitty Terminal and Zen Browser
[2] Discord/Vesktop
[3] Steam
[4] r2modman

[novel rose]

What else am I supposed to use to access my files?

[alpine scarab]

Then rearrange if I'm doing something like coding or game dev

[rocky yarrow]

I just don't understand how folks cope without it, though I think multiple monitors bridges the gap for a lot of folks

[alpine scarab]

OH WAIT IM A DUMBASS

[rocky yarrow]

Fortunately, as I say, we live in a world where I can have both multiple monitors and virtual desktops

[alpine scarab]

nvm

[novel rose]

Big monitor is also a life saver

[alpine scarab]

unfortunately my desktop environment does not have per monitor workspaces

[novel rose]

At 32" I can have 3 MS Word windows next to each other for example and all pages can still be at 100%

[alpine scarab]

i am not old enough to remember those so :3

[rocky yarrow]

But like my window manager lets me define which desktops a window can be in, define which layer a window is in (so I can prioritize what's on top in various circumstances -- I've never actually bene able to switch to a tiling WM so that one's not for me), does a nice little roll-up thing which can reduce 'em to just the title bar, rename the titles -- I can set all kinds of default settings for all of that stuff based on the window class, etc...

[alpine scarab]

I've never even seen a CRT irl

[rocky yarrow]

Just tons of stuff that can't be done in some lame tab system that a rando app created

It's not that I don't use browser tabs too, but I'll often spawn new browser windows too, just 'cause it's convenient and it lets me pin content in places where I want it, etc.

[alpine scarab]

what

[novel rose]

When I was grading code of students my windows were all over the place

[alpine scarab]

i feel sorry that you had to review the code in first place, can only imagine the shit you've seen

Lmao

oof

[novel rose]

One browser with their report, a VS code for their actual code, a terminal to run their code, a browser window with the grading sheet, and finally a browser window with the student manual

[novel rose]

Sometimes you'd wonder if people were stoned when coding

[alpine scarab]

i conditioned myself for neovim so I am cooked

[alpine scarab]

what kind of things

[rocky yarrow]

I still miss my Sun Microsystems 365-1383; that thing was an effing beast

I couldn't use most computer desks at the time 'cause the thing was so heavy

lol, Weight 31 kg (68.34 lbs)

[novel rose]

All sorts of crap, it was C++ so at some point they had to start splitting up code in header and source files: Submit entire code in a header file only

[alpine scarab]

Ah

I tried cpp

did not go well

[novel rose]

C++ is dangerous as fuck if not used properly but its also ancient as fuck so nowadays its used properly in most places

It mainly remains popular because of object oriented programming and being able to relatively easily do low level stuff

[alpine scarab]

Rust my beloved

[novel rose]

To get back to this, I have no clue what this is about. Too young lmao

[rocky yarrow]

Just a monitor; I'd've included a link but the URL filter here would've eaten it. A Google'll get you right there. :)

[novel rose]

Ah

My current monitor isn't much better, has a metal foot

So its not 31kg

but its heavy

[alpine scarab]

I got this lg monitor

[novel rose]

Eww

Numpadless keyboard

[rocky yarrow]

Hey, some folks like their 81-keys. :D

I feel naked without the 104s, but to each their own

I've seen some really neat keycaps for 81s (I mean, for 104s too, but you've got slightly more options on 81 since some sets only go that high)

[novel rose]

The Fn functionality of razer is pretty sweet, I never use it but just the thought of having basically 2 keyboards in 1 is pretty sweet lol

Must admit though.... having to clean less keys is something to envy

Actually now that I have made an appearance here

I might want to upgrade my setup in the near future

[dire igloo]

that's uhhhh

hella standard yk

and locking it behind proprietary software is bs

look up VIA

[novel rose]

Most people I know still have keyboards with some extra macro keys and thats it

[pure karma]

L keyboard+no numberpad

[dire igloo]

you're in for a whole lotta stuff

[alpine scarab]

My new one has a number pad

[dire igloo]

once you realize that proprietary keyboards aren't really smart

[novel rose]

Oh god

Its the laptop layout

[alpine scarab]

eh I like it (except for no rgb apps supporting this goddamn keyboard)

[dire igloo]

1800?

[alpine scarab]

Sounds much better than the corsair so

[alpine scarab]

What?

Also stole some keys from the corsair >:3

[novel rose]

I have a Razer with the green keys, sounds like I have a typewriter on my desk lmao

[alpine scarab]

literally the only functionality I lost was alt key combinations so it was not an issue for me

[novel rose]

I need the home/end and page up/page down keys

They're essential

[alpine scarab]

The only thing that works is their proprietary app specifically for that model of keyboard that only works on windows

[alpine scarab]

have never used those tbh.

[novel rose]

They're so handy

[alpine scarab]

Page down and up yeah like a couple times but

Also I can use FN to get those

[novel rose]

I also despise this layout purely because my brain refuses to coordinate and I end up hitting the keys around the arrow keys, instead of the arrow keys

[alpine scarab]

I did have that issue but just because I was used to my old one. Didn't take me long to adjust

[novel rose]

I'll stick to my typewriter😆

[alpine scarab]

Lmao the corsair was loud asf

Spacebar was rattly

tf kinda word is that why

nvm-

[novel rose]

Back to this, this is what I have atm:

RTX 2060 Super
i5 14600 KF
Gigabyte B760 GAMING X
32 GB DDR5 (Believe its at 4800 MHz)
750 W power supply

Now I think I would upgrade the GPU first

Anyone have suggestions as to what I should get with the current f'ed up market?

[alpine scarab]

I have
GTX 1080
i5 8700K
16GB RAM
no idea about the rest though :3

[alpine scarab]

No idea lmao. My PC is still going strong so I'm chill with my setup but I wouldn't know what to get in your case

[glossy glacier]

CPU should be fine-ish for now
GPU maybe one of the new AMD 9070s

[novel rose]

Yeah that was my intention when buying that MB, can easily upgrade CPU later to fix a potential bottleneck

But thanks for the suggestion, will take a look to tomorrow

[willow pike]

9070 XT not out yet, will be out next week. if it's as fast as claimed, and available at the right price, it is the only graphics card worth considering right now

the pc master race was begging for a good deal and we might have finally got one

[novel rose]

Have always had Nvidia so just for me to get some point of reference, whats that roughly equating to?

[willow pike]

5070ti or 4080 super

[novel rose]

Alright

Is their power draw also dramatic?

[willow pike]

5070ti is $750 but only selling for like $1400 right now. radeon 9070XT is $600

[novel rose]

Because I would hope to be good for a bit with 750 W

[willow pike]

power draw is equivalent, ~300W

the 5000 series also has problems such as:

• missing ROP hardware in a small amount of cards, making them slower
• intermittent black screen driver issues
• the use of the 16 pin power connector that's melting

[novel rose]

Hmmm

[willow pike]

nobody is happy about this

to top it off, 5070 ti is exactly the same speed as 4080 super and is selling for the same price

i have been building computers for literally decades and it's the single worst geforce generation I have ever seen

[novel rose]

The 50 series you mean?

[willow pike]

possibly as bad as the geforce 400 with wood screws

[willow pike]

ye

[novel rose]

Oof

Yeah in hindsight that 2060 Super was an amazing deal

[willow pike]

AMD haven't been competing enough so nvidia aren't giving us a good deal

[novel rose]

Bought it when the RTX hype died down but can still keep up ok now

[willow pike]

the 9070 XT is the first hope we have

if it doesn't live up to the promises, or if it gets scalped so bad it's only available for $1000, i suggest you buy nothing

[novel rose]

Oof lol, was already prepared for something like that

[willow pike]

honestly, before the 9070 price was announced, I told people to just get a new fucking hobby

[novel rose]

Second hand market culture here is pretty nice and safe here so might just get a 40 series second hand

[willow pike]

keep an eye on this channel, people will be talking about if the 9070 and 9070 XT are any good

[pure karma]

seems decent but could always be bs like 50 series

[willow pike]

yeah nothing is real until reviewers have them in hand and have tested them

[novel rose]

Also when next week will it be released?

[willow pike]

march 6

i believe that's when the review embargo lifts too

ah no, embargo on the 4th, release on the 6th

two days to decide if they're worth your money

[novel rose]

And now I am gonna sound incredibly old while I'm only 24, but youtubers like JayzTwoCents etc. still at it and reliable? If so, I will probably watch some videos to catch up as well

[willow pike]

jayztwocents isn't the most reliable. i treat hardware unboxed and gamers nexus as primary sources

[pure karma]

GN is the god of the people around here but yea for the average person yea JTC and LTT gets the job done in a more understandable way

[novel rose]

Alright thanks for all the advice

[willow pike]

i appreciate how HUB will work out cost per frame of every card based on MSRP and actual price

and GN goes into truly autistic detail (complimentary)

[pure karma]

cost per frame seems actually like a pretty nice idea

[willow pike]

if I'm gonna be dropping hundreds of pounds on something, I want someone to really test the fuck out of it

[novel rose]

Very true

SF is actually the main reason I want to upgrade

I really like lumen but with it enabled its 40 FPS at max

[willow pike]

LTT is more of tech entertainment these days and gets a lot of information wrong in a rush to publish (and has done heinous things to employees)

[novel rose]

Yeah am aware of that

Also their super weird way of handling the Honey stuff

by just continuing with another service that basically does the same

[willow pike]

linus has mastered the art of non apologies. or at least he thinks he does because he's really bad at it

[novel rose]

Actually damn

Megalag still hasn't made that follow up video about Honey

He made a post a month ago that the follow up should've been uploaded weeks ago

[willow pike]

no idea how it could get worse than the industrialised fraud machine they have

[novel rose]

Well his research turned into multiple class action lawsuits

[sharp oasis]

wccftech.com/amd-radeon-rx-9070-xt-stress-tested-furmark-performs-equivalent-to-rtx-4080-incredibly-cool-at-55c/

Apparently 9070xt looking real good

[languid gulch]

for a second i thought that said 5080 and i nearly shit myself

also i kinda feel bad for anyone who bought a 4080 for $1200

kinda

[pure karma]

Probably got shut down

[languid gulch]

or they've been told not to talk because of ongoing litigation

[feral drift]

Comes down to Denzels words.. “If you dont read the newspapir, youre uninformed.. And if you read the newspapir youre misinformed”.

“It doesnt matter if the story youre bringing is the truth, as long as youre first”.

I feel like the same goes to many Tech youtubers like LTT today…

[charred relic]

Linus has always rubbed me the wrong way.

I get bad vibes... i get that with some folks and it's rarely wrong. And once again they weren't wrong.

What annoys me most about LTT is how they'll go do demonstrate something and it's like nobody has done any homework.

And how many storage solutions has he butchered now?

GN, Hardware Unboxed are the main ones I watch]

UFD Tech is good for just getting the headline stuff

[feral drift]

When you have a deadline saying the video must be uploaded by the end of the day, I would assume alot of due diligence is skipped..

[charred relic]

Yeah and that's bad for that kind of channel

Especially like that long distance directional dish wifi thing they set up... they just ended up looking oncompetent heh

shocker ina line of sight system you might not actually have sight guys...

figure of speech... :/

"It's about 3 miles as the crow flies"... interestingly enough a crow would have transferred data faster at that moment 😄

[languid gulch]

ok has anyone heard of a double ATX case

was looking at the TT X5/X9

but ew

[charred relic]

I like the number of frontside USB's...

Looks wider than mine and mine is about as wide as I'd want

Which reminds me that I need to order a PCIe USB card because I do not have enough.

Just glad there are plenty of cases with some breathing room now. nothing like those older cases where you had the width of 3 atoms to tuck your cables

[languid gulch]

yea definitely

even with the issues the 6500X has, it's still easier to work in than my P400A

[charred relic]

If I can get my old 3700x system running again I'm going to stick everything in a sleeper case

[languid gulch]

hell, if i had a NAS i wouldn't have to care about cable management at all with it

[charred relic]

We're talking PII era

[languid gulch]

🤣

[charred relic]

And it's been through it over the years.... moves from house to house, location to location in the house

One thing I kinda miss is the externally accessible 5.25" bays

[languid gulch]

sadly yea

[charred relic]

There's some useful and neat stuff you could put in those...

[languid gulch]

would be neat to have a vertical 5.25" put above where some fish tank cases put the side fans, just ditch a fan slot for it

still plenty of room for a 240/280 rad there

[charred relic]

heh i had a frontside fan that went in one of those bays

had 3 small fans next to each other pulling air in the front lol

[languid gulch]

if i didn't need to take a dremel to my old dell case, i could see having some fun in it

[charred relic]

I'll likely need to get the dremel out

[languid gulch]

although i do still have an old dell vostro case i could torture

absolute dogshit ventilation on it

[charred relic]

I have a case with tons of airflow... every fan is even hot swappable.

But you can't put any traditional hardware in it lol

like home pc stuff... in fact the thing is more backplane than mainboard

[languid gulch]

it's one of these

LGA775

i wish prebuilts had some decent airflow. i like that a lot of them are smaller than even a fair amount of itx cases

[charred relic]

I have an old Dell Optiplex Dual PIII system

Sounds like a jet starting up when you power it on

3x PSU's, 2 required... hot swappable

frontside hot swappable drives

[languid gulch]

oh i accidentally did that with my old dell system, mainly because i had tricked it into using a higher end cpu, so it thought the entire system was melting or something

[charred relic]

It's day it was a monstah

*in it's

Still runs great last time I fired it up, Windows 2000 on it.

[languid gulch]

good god 🤣 hope it's not connected to the internet

[charred relic]

Never was, LAN only

[languid gulch]

good

[charred relic]

Well not by me. When it was newer it was used in production.

I just used it for Postgre

[languid gulch]

i'm kinda tempted to get that new silverstone case for nostalgia's sake

www.silverstonetek.com/en/product/info/computer-chassis/flp01/

[charred relic]

I kinda like the Fractal North

[languid gulch]

can handle a 138mm cpu cooler on that silverstone case, which feels kinda crazy

[charred relic]

Since I can really go either way with RGB that's probably a good one for people not relaly into it

[languid gulch]

yea i like the north look too

[charred relic]

like the one with the mesh panel... very slick

It was on my list of potential cases

[languid gulch]

it looks good with the white & wood on it

wouldn't look out of place in a living room

[charred relic]

Yeah the white with the lighter wood I like

I looked at them in the store when I picked my order up. I really do like being able to walk into a store to look at stuff like that in person.

[languid gulch]

oh 100%

[charred relic]

They also have a pretty good "maker" section and that's right up my alley

I could spend an hour in that one room

[languid gulch]

oh that just sounds like trouble 🤣

[charred relic]

that's why I don't let myself spend an hour in there...

[languid gulch]

going into an assembly/maintenance area for me is like school recess

[charred relic]

I'll spend an hour...and who knows how much money

Like model rockets... haven't flown one in over 2 decades but if I spend much time in a store around them I get real REAL tempted

[languid gulch]

yea that's how i am in music shops

[charred relic]

well the close shop doesn't have much so I'm safe lol

They carry Fender... Not a fender guy.

[languid gulch]

there's a shop near me with 2 huge maintenance areas for every instrument

i wanna know what tools they use so i can get my own 🤣

[charred relic]

depends on how deep they go

[languid gulch]

whatever chisels they use to get that insane precision

[charred relic]

luthiers have a LOT of shit

My grandfather on my dads side was a lutheir... it's definitely an art

[languid gulch]

also whatever magic they use to sharpen them

[charred relic]

also art lol

Another thing he did, which was childs play for him. Replace pins for the local bowling alley

(back when they were made out of wood)

he also sharpened lawnmower (and other) blades as a side hustler...

[languid gulch]

how many fingers did he have?

[charred relic]

9.5ish

[languid gulch]

🤣

sorry, had a feeling

[charred relic]

Interesting enough not lost doing that kind of wood work, he was getting rid of a tree branch

But yeah he was missing about half of one finger

His home shop was amazing though. I mean back then Craftsman had good stuff, what a lot of people had. His shit was all industrial size

[languid gulch]

i think i only have all 10 because my first shop teacher was missing chunks out of his middle & ring finger from a planer

and he told us the story on day 1

[charred relic]

Well if you go into that field... it's something that happens sometimes

Lucky if you just lose a finger really

[languid gulch]

oh yea but we were all like 12-13 years old 🤣

[charred relic]

There are a lot of chemists that have missing fingers or parts of

[languid gulch]

i've only gotten 1 chemical burn & it wasn't that bad

NaOH

[charred relic]

I just don't want a plasma burn

[languid gulch]

was one of those "huh, that tickles. NO WAIT IT DOESN'T"

[charred relic]

those can be all internal... and just like

destroy bone and stuff

[languid gulch]

oh yea

or one of those pressure related injuries

[charred relic]

pressure waves are fun... until they aren't

[languid gulch]

where everything seems ok

like presssure injection

[charred relic]

I think I got more of my other grandfathers DNA, he was a radio technician... worked at a local AM station in Muskogee

He was into all the electronics stuff, especially radio and audio amplifiers. I think he had to get re-certified every years so he had to stay up on stuff. Plus that gear is super super dangerous.

I just came across an old books I have of his actually...

2 bucks in 1950

[languid gulch]

"how to hopefully not kill yourself, your family, or your neighbors"

[charred relic]

I'm going to build something out of that book... just because it was his

And there's also some useful circuits in there... all the amps are tube based of course

Not something he'd read directly for work but that's just the type of stuff he was into, guarantee that got read cover to cover.

If you want a chuckle check out the "We made a hot dog talk...with RF" that Geerling Engineering did lol.

[night girder]

Think my headset is dying 😂 now i lost both cushions.

I find it interesting it happens in the same time span of +- 3 months.

Even headsets now have AI? 🤔

Yeah I know what they are talking about.

the stealth retractable design... wanna know what it is?

You can hide the microphone, it's retractable.

That's it.

Time to keep my eyes open for new headset I guess.

[dire igloo]

I'm yet to see a single Steelseries product (especially in audio) that is worth its money

[twin dew]

Very few "Gaming" products are.

[night girder]

Yeah, I can buy new cushions for now I guess.

But Arctis 7 itself is discontinued.

And their new models, I don't like them.

[novel rose]

On 'gaming' products in general, My Secretlab chair is so worth it. I have a long back and their chairs are big enough to support my entire back.

With a normal chair I often find the back support to be too short

I mean you have normal chairs that would have that but those often go towards €1000

Secretlab Titan chair was €500 iirc

[dire igloo]

"normal chair" as in other gaming chairs or proper office chairs?

[twin dew]

Most office chairs have short backrests, but most have variants with long ones.

[dire igloo]

the point of office chairs is to have adjustment ability

[twin dew]

Those long backrest ones are just much less common as used, or as display models.

Just that if you look into the catalog, you can get it as option for almost any.

[night girder]

That's mine.

[twin dew]

Mine bought used in dark blue:

[novel rose]

Yeah my neck will end up at the top/above that headrest with most of these chairs

[twin dew]

Including the airbag adjustable lumbar support.

That headrest is at the minimum position.

[novel rose]

Well if it's adjustable then its different, but the one he showed from IKEA often don't have that

At least last time I went looking for a new one

[twin dew]

https://youtu.be/2ZNJpDdJt4I?t=134

The adjustments for that headrest from that timestamp.

Its great.

[novel rose]

Oh damn, yeah that'd be awesome to have as well

[night girder]

Price? I see 1000 for a chair rofl

[novel rose]

Although arguably my GPU is also a pretty great buy

Somehow it can, even under heavy load, cope with passive cooling

[night girder]

The fact every site tells me to contact them to get a price of isku chair, yeah I am good

[twin dew]

Yeah, paid 350-400e for used one.

Real good office chairs are in that 1000e new range.

[night girder]

still a lot of money for 2nd hand finish chair.

[twin dew]

Yup.

[night girder]

Don't know about that, depends on who you ask

[novel rose]

Well I mean regular furniture chairs of similar quality are often even more expensive

[night girder]

😒

I think that depends in your lifestyle

[twin dew]

The chairs I would have wanted are in 1000e used range, and 2000-3000e new.

24/7 control room chairs.

[novel rose]

Im gonna guess those match the lifetime of said control room?

[night girder]

JÄRVFJÄLLET for 360 gives a few more features.

[twin dew]

Very long life, and made to be sit in for 8+ hours straight.
While normal office chairs are intentionally little on hard side etc.

[night girder]

Still not perfect, but you can adjust the head and the back support

[twin dew]

That headrest adjustment is just for angle in one direction.

[night girder]

You can adjust it up and down afaik.

[visual tree]

Good thing you are looking for an office chair 👍 Gaming chairs are waste of money imo

I think my office chair is more than 10 years old and leather is flaking but I still refuse to buy a new chair because the one I have atm is comfy and I could sit whole day in it

I think it was around €200

[novel rose]

I do the same in terms of using stuff, only reason I bought my OnePlus 13 is because the screen of my OnePlus 6 literally came loose after 6 years

It decided that the glue between the screen and phone was no longer necessary

Phone still functions fine

[dire igloo]

I got Colamy Atlas - lumbar support and headrest don't go up far enough for me either, but there are dozens of good alternatives

[visual tree]

Are those actual prices? That same chair in local IKEA is €100 cheaper 👀

[dire igloo]

point is: no need to pay $500 for unergonomic gamer stuff

[pure karma]

My problem is I haven’t found a single comfortable office chair

[dire igloo]

what did you try so far?

[novel rose]

Yeah IKEA tends to have different prices per country

[dire igloo]

the point is not to have them comfortable out of the box

the point is that you can make them comfortable

[visual tree]

I would advise going to a store and trying multiple office chairs to see which one suits you better. Never buy office chairs without trying them

[visual tree]

And I thought my country was the most expensive in EU lol

[novel rose]

It depends

Can be both ways from what I have seen

[twin dew]

No height adjustment for the back, or the headrest.

If you check the assembly instructions.

Ok, very minimal height adjustment for the headrest.

About half the headrests height if even that.

[novel rose]

One other benefit of higher end chairs, the wheels still turn properly after 6 months

[visual tree]

I love the so-called "manager" chairs

Had a similar one in the company I worked for in the past. That sinking feeling is really good

Although I don't know how good this chair is tbh (seems like ratings are not that great)

[novel rose]

Those always give me the feeling that the tilt lock is about to snap loose lol

[dire igloo]

that's not a benefit nor is it an attribute of highend chairs
that's called not being junk

[pure karma]

Thats how i concluded office chairs just aren’t for me

[dire igloo]

I'll ask again: did you actually try to properly adjust them?

[pure karma]

No? why would i adjust them if there in a decent position

[dire igloo]

BRUHHHHH

[dire igloo]

!!!

[dire igloo]

1. go to store, test out chairs
2. not adjust chairs
3. conclude "they ain't for me"
   fucking hell

how can you conclude they're not for you if you didn't even fucking try?

[night girder]

it's in the description

[twin dew]

Tried to look for it in the page itself, then went into assembly instructions that had the headrest screwed in.
In later part it then showed that the headrest slides a bit on that mounting piece.
But about half headrest height as max adjustment, max shown:

[night girder]

Yeah, not ideal. But not nothing either.

For some it will suffice.

[cobalt ivy]

Someone please let there be 5070ti stock again

[drowsy coral]

200,000th number of the Fibbonacci sequence in 0.6 seconds on a non-optimized Python script WITH Chrome open... crazy how fast hardware is now, just shows that the software is what's not optimized. (Apple M2, lowest spec)

[dire igloo]

Reminds me of the Matt Parker video where he showcased code optimizations that people sent him based on his wordle optimization code

[night girder]

"Someone improved my code by 40,832,277,770%" 🤣

[sand saddle]

You can probably find new ones on aliexpress for like 5 bucks

[night girder]

Yeah, ordered some cushions for 10 euro. Couldn't find official ones anymore.

[sand saddle]

I don't care much for original, the price difference is stupid

Everything is made in China anyways

[night girder]

Yeah... let's see. I read reviews that people find them better than the original one.

rofl 🤣

It looks they went out of business.

[visual tree]

Actually considering taking radio amateur exam here since it's free and you can also download exam literature for free

Example of an online mock exam (google translate):

[night girder]

Question 6, what is the answer? AM stands for:

a) Amplitude Modulation.
b) frequency modulation.
c) phase modulation.
d) telegraphy.

[twin dew]

Makes more sense when the answers aren't in english.

[visual tree]

Yeah, the exam was translated to english

[night girder]

Still funny.

Asking for what abbreviations stand for are silly question imo.

[twin dew]

It is still AM in the original.

But the answers are in local language, so not direct match like that.

[night girder]

ante meridiem, that's the thing with abbreviations. They stand for so many things.

Isn't it more important that a student knows what amplitude modulation means?

[twin dew]

Need to know what amplitude modulation means and works.
But also need to be able to attach that "AM" label to whatever amplitude modulation is in local language.

Same with FM to frequency modulation in local language.

[night girder]

Well, kinda makes sense I guess. Still, I find abbrevation questions a bit weird.

[twin dew]

Specific common abbrevation in the specific field with just single meaning inside that sphere.
And usually used instead of the full names in almost everything.

[night girder]

Ok, those are harder 😄

Question 8 is puzzling me.

"by signals of unclear meaning?" or by telegraph 😄

[twin dew]

Very bad question.
And that answer d is probably butchered by automatic translation.

But basically a and b are not amateur radio communication.
c is just weird.
probably bad question where only d is part of the study material.

[night girder]

My interpretation is this; what is allowed for amateur radio. I would think everything except maybe telegraph?

But signals of unclear meaning is also a good candidate.

[twin dew]

Because amateur radio stuff happens in whatever language both sides can use.

[visual tree]

Google translate killed it lol. The d option is : using signals of unclear meaning

[night girder]

I eliminated A/C already as an answer. Just instinct.

What is a signal with unclear meaning?

[twin dew]

Yeah, but in same vein a, b would be valid answers.
Because that then isn't amateur radio communication.

[visual tree]

Even in local language, d option is basically literally the same

[twin dew]

Not going with the radio etiquette and the format and terms.

[night girder]

Nobody cares if amateur radio is in a foreign language

[twin dew]

Specific ways to start and end the message sent.

[visual tree]

I guess making random animal sound counts as "signal of unknown meaning"

[night girder]

Can you get in trouble for that legally?

[twin dew]

No, but you would be ass.

To everyone else trying to use the band.

[night girder]

I think I didn't explain myself properly.

What if you use the band that is reserved for airplanes etc?

[visual tree]

If you think those questions are hard, wait till you see this

[night girder]

Or police force? They all have frequencies no?

[visual tree]

You have to memorize everything!

[twin dew]

Transmitting on any band not for radio amateurs is illegal and punishable.

[night girder]

That's what I wanted to know.

[twin dew]

But that was in no way related to how you communicate on the bands that are allowed.

[night girder]

Doesn't sound easy to track someone though.

[twin dew]

Where not following the protocol makes you ass, and which that answer to question 8 refers.

[night girder]

If I am mobile, in my car, and I just go on the frequency of the cops, and I make animals sounds. Then get into my car and drive away. Sounds hard to track right?

[night girder]

Copy. Over and out. 🤣

[visual tree]

I think the police can triangulate your position so don't try this

[night girder]

Doubt it. If you do it for a long time ofc.

[twin dew]

Not that quickly.

[night girder]

But if you do it unexpected and quick. By the time they realize what's going on, you're gone.

[visual tree]

Probably

[night girder]

Unless there is a mechanic that keeps track of transmissions and where they took place through history.

[twin dew]

And the stuff to do direction finding isn't normally ready for use either.
The higher level authorities break those vans out when needed.

Because you need directional antenna as minimum.

Ok, now you can do that with multiple antennas and phase shift detection.

To determine the direction.

[night girder]

Drones, how do they communicate with controller?

also on a radio frequency?

[twin dew]

Everything works on some frequency range.
Either single one, or for the shared band stuff today usually frequency hopping etc. in mix inside the allowed bands.

[night girder]

Yeah, I meant radio.

[twin dew]

There is no difference on the electromagnetic spectrum until you get above microwave range where you at some point transfer into region we count as light.

[visual tree]

I once had a very old american garage door opener and the doors opened in the middle of the night. When we called the repair service, they got surprised we still had the old garage door opener because it uses the same frequency as the military

[night girder]

So satelites, radio, wifi, bluetooth, they all use the same spectrum?

[twin dew]

Consumer drones operate in the normal free to use bands like 433MHz, 915MHz, 2.4GHz, 5.8GHz etc.

Bluetooth is on that 2.4GHz band.
WiFi is on that 2.4GHz and 5.8GHz bands.

[twin dew]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency_allocation

Basically there is limited amount of "space" in the usable frequency range, and most of it is licensed and allocated by countries radio frequency administrations, like FCC does in US.

There are specific small segments that are free for all unlicensed.

[visual tree]

Fun fact: When Pope John Paul II visited Croatia in 2003, a lot of people's garage doors suddenly started opening and closing by "themselves" because they were using military frequency

[twin dew]

Like those 2.4GHz and 5.8GHz bands, because those are in water vapors absorption lines, so they get attenuated fast in air.
So they aren't valuable for commercial use.

[night girder]

I saw video this week a video from Ryan Montgomery (ethical hacker). He has device that captures remote garage doors and cars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQSy95YFGFI

But he can also monitor airplanes, with same device I believe. And do other things.

Which make sense, since it's all just frequencies that the device is probably scanning and then capturing data.

[visual tree]

Now I know who to blame if my garage door open by themselves

[night girder]

The garage door was funny though, because it would go out of sync with the real door opener.

So, he opens the garage door 4 times with his hacked device.

[twin dew]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software-defined_radio

[night girder]

And the owner of the door, needs to use his own door opener 4 times, before it got back in sync and opened his garage door

Because the real opener got out of sync with the garage door.

[twin dew]

Cheap SDRs with wide frequency ranges are what has gotten that stuff to be so easy today.

[night girder]

He could even disable air conditioning units.

do a little EMP attack in a barber shop.

[twin dew]

Yeah, because lot of that stuff is using very insecure protocols

[night girder]

I was damn, that's like a swiss army knife for hackers.

[twin dew]

Built on trust that no-one can make the signals freely.

[night girder]

He always did ask permission ofc.

Telling everyone what he was doing, and what was going on.

[visual tree]

Btw, I think I owned an american model like this which was later banned because it operated on military frequency

[twin dew]

Early car remote door opening fobs used just single signal pattern each time, "unique" to each car.

Meaning the one opening the cars own doors.

So if you could capture that once, you could just replay it forever.

After that there have been multiple generations with better and better cryptos to make that not work like that anymore.

On the next step usually just getting two successive signals was enough to "break" that crypto and duplicate the fob.

[night girder]

I think the garage door worked with codes:

• Hacked device sends signal with code "a1".

• Door accepts "a1"
  = open door.

• Hacked device sends signal with code "b2".

• Door accepts "b2"
  = open door.

• Hacked device sends signal with code "c3".

• Door accepts "c3"
  = open door.

• Real device sends signal with code "a1"

• Door accepts "d4"
  = not open.

• Real device sends signal with code "b2"

• Door accepts "d4"
  = not open.

• Real device sends signal with code "c3"

• Door accepts "d4"
  = not open.

• Real device sends signal with code "d4"

• Door accepts "d4"
  = open. ✅ (and the device is back in sync).

[twin dew]

So if doors didn't open on first press for whatever reason (for example the bad guy broadcasting low level jamming), and you tried to open second time, you could get pwnd.

[night girder]

Like how 2FA works with codes.

[twin dew]

Then onwards to better ones from that.

[jagged snow]

Or, for example, many american cars use a double-press to unlock all doors

[twin dew]

But from static code, to trivial to break code, to better ones over time.

But lot of the other stuff has never moved on to better things.

[night girder]

Wonder what is more safe, wireless keys or physical keys for a car.

[twin dew]

Like garage door openers etc.

[jagged snow]

Safe how?
Physical is always more secure than wireless in some respects, for anything

[night girder]

Safe = secure. (sorry bad translation from my part).

[jagged snow]

What makes something more secure?

[night girder]

How easy/hard it is to get into the vehicle, start it and drive away with it.

physical keys, they can be lock picked.

[jagged snow]

Wireless is more complex to break than picking a lock or copying a key, but it also doesn't require physical access

[night girder]

but wireless keys can be captured.

[night girder]

Not from what I saw in that video.

[twin dew]

Current remove fobs are very bad.
As you can use directional antenna and phone data connection to "copy" that fob in real time while the owner is at home.
And receive that signal over that phone data connection into SDR and send it to the car.
And just get in and start the car and drive away.

[jagged snow]

Honestly that doesn't have much of anything to do with how you unlock it

[twin dew]

Basically relaying the short distance traffic between car and fob over long distance over internet.

[jagged snow]

You can unlock just about any car pre 2010 with a clothes hanger

[night girder]

The hacker was a few meters away, nobody realized they were capturing it.

Owner of car tries to open car once and hacker had full access.

[jagged snow]

Nothing is secure 🤷‍♂️

[night girder]

If you try to lockpick a car, people will notice more quickly too.

[twin dew]

And with suitable directional antenna etc. you can multiply that distance you can connect to the fob yourself to tens of times the normal.

[night girder]

I wonder, if we went wireless for convience, or for security. Specifically for cars.

[jagged snow]

Yes and no 🤷‍♂️
You can say it's yours and nobody will bat an eye

[twin dew]

convience.

[jagged snow]

Convenience
There are still physical locks on most cars that have wireless anyways

[night girder]

Yeah, because if your remote key dies, or the battery dies, you can still enter and start your car.

[jagged snow]

Exactly

Although
The part about starting it isn't so true

Most cars made post 2010 also rely on the wireless to start

[night girder]

Ah, I can start mine with my key.

[visual tree]

How safe are wireless alarm systems with hopping frequency btw?

[night girder]

I can pull out the start button I believe.

And put in my key.

[jagged snow]

Lots of cars won't start unless the fob is within a certain proximity, they use an rfid type system

Which is to prevent people from starting it with just a physical copy of the key

[twin dew]

Depends on the exact protocol.
That frequency hopping is standard today for almost everything as otherwise they just wouldn't work on shared frequency range.

Spread spectrum frequency hopping.

[night girder]

They put it in, and then hit the red button you see (start/stop).

Mini Country Man (so pretty recent model).

[twin dew]

In olden days with radio controlled cars, planes etc. everyone had to coordinate to select crystals so everyone used different frequency.
Now it is just handled by that spread spectrum frequency hopping radios with ID-coded transmissions where everyone just blasts into the common frequency range and digital electronics pick out the correct stuff from the noise.

Based on that ID-code.

[visual tree]

I've been eyeing on Ajax for a while

[charred relic]

I use a crystal for frequency :

[night girder]

That does make sense. But would also fuck people over. You are in the middle of nowhere. It's freezing cold. And your key died.

[charred relic]

It's what controls the clock speed of the microcontroller on an Arduino

[twin dew]

That second part of the first block is already wrong.
Doesn't protect against intentional jamming of the whole range, which is trivial to do.

[charred relic]

jammers are easy to build

[jagged snow]

Yes to both of those
Because dealerships will also charge hundreds of dollars to make duplicate keys that use that system

[night girder]

Yeah, my friend got screwed like that.

[charred relic]

AM you really shred if you put some power behind it because it bleeds over like nuts

[night girder]

He bought a car. Wanted extra key for the girlfriend. Got insane price for it.

I think he went to someone "fishy" and got a duplicate key for cheap

Forgot how much they asked for the key (official dealership). But it was above the 100.

[jagged snow]

Yeah, I've heard of places quoting as high as 400usd

And higher for more expensive cars

[twin dew]

But in olden days with RC stuff you swapped crystals like these to select the exact frequency YOUR controller and RC car or plane used:

[jagged snow]

iirce porsche will run you 500+

[charred relic]

They're like 16ish for my car I believe

[twin dew]

Or cheap toys often had just single frequency all the same model toys used, or had selection switch for couple possibilities.

[charred relic]

I had CB radios that used ctystals

[night girder]

never heard of this concept of crystals

[charred relic]

basically only had a few channels at once, had to pick which once you wanted at that time

[twin dew]

Just swappable quartz crystal for the frequency generator.

[visual tree]

Those damn marketing guys

[night girder]

but they control the frequency?

[charred relic]

yeah they resonate at an exact frequency

[twin dew]

Which is marked on that tape.

[night girder]

That's really dope.

[twin dew]

27.195MHz for the pic

Then another set would be on 27.190MHz for example, and another on 27.200MHz.

Changing frequency by swapping parts.

[night girder]

So, if I wanted to mess with 27.195MHz frequency, I could just get a crystal that resonates on that frequency?

[visual tree]

Please don't get some weird crystal and try to cause a resonance cascade

[twin dew]

No, that is just part for specific radio, need the rest too.

[charred relic]

they are super stable

once they're set they just resonate at that frequency... well not sure how long longer than it'll matter to you

[twin dew]

And for most modern stuff, you can just tune freely.
Like with your car radios etc.

[night girder]

Wait ...

Did radios use those crystals?

[charred relic]

It's just quartz, same principle for quartz watches

[twin dew]

All radio tech needs frequency reference.
Same as with computer clocks etc.

[charred relic]

for a AM/FM receiver not typically but they could yes

those usually could sweep frequency

[twin dew]

Quartz crystals are the gold standard for that.

Where you can cut them to exact frequency and they will keep that very accurately.
And for extreme accuracy you then put that crystal into temperature controlled miniature oven.

[charred relic]

In theory I could swap out my Arduino crystal but I don't think those chips can really OC in most cases

and no point...

[willow pike]

hey no satisfactory talk in here

[twin dew]

As temperature changes are the only real thing that causes drift in those.

So lot of stuff put the crystal into insulated small thing with temperature sensor and resistance heater, and kept them at for example 100C all the time.

[charred relic]

if I'm going to do anything that old tech i'd be tubes

[twin dew]

Even today.

[charred relic]

5w should be plenty 😄

[night girder]

Ok, I understand now.

Crystal is base reference frequency (very stable). Then you got other technology/hardware that can change that base reference frequency.

[charred relic]

the y're good for a lot of applications, especially anything small you need a stable timer for

I have some in a little parts drawer somewheres

[twin dew]

Yup, but for things using those swappable crystals, it gave that base modulation frequency directly.

Todays computer MBs keep RTC so badly because they don't contain quartz crystals anymore, and just do with cheaper resonators.

[charred relic]

I could definitely use one for time based guitar effects like flangers, phasers, echo's ete... "time based" effects some call them, however there are easier/better ways for that since it doens't need to be precise

[night girder]

goes to shop to buy a quartz crystal and jam some electric cables into it to see what happens

[twin dew]

Not much.

[charred relic]

Make sure it's full on wall AC power ;0

[visual tree]

Where can I get Xen crystal?

I just want to test something

[night girder]

Well something will happen. Not saying anything on frequency level.

Maybe my house burns down or something 🤣

[charred relic]

Wall current would just fry it

[twin dew]

Needs suitable driving circuit, one example, wher that X'tal is the actual quartz crystal or ceramic resonator

[charred relic]

you might think nothing happened...something def happened

😄

[night girder]

Yeah this! 🤣

[night girder]

Nvm then.

[twin dew]

Just find something like these in some old MB or other electronics:

[charred relic]

You also have to feed that into something for it to be useful, you still won't see anything happening...

[twin dew]

That 4-legged bigger thing in the first pic already contains all that driver stuff.

[night girder]

frequency reader on amazon

[charred relic]

scope, freq counter

a chip to do some work

which then means you still can't see it until you see it doing the work heh

[night girder]

Right ...

[twin dew]

With power, ground and square wave output.

At whatever frequency that exact oscillator is for.

And one unused pin.

[charred relic]

If I could measure frequency I could go throw something on a broadboard in short order and try some of mine

One of these days I'll get an oscilloscope

[wanton orchid]

this is slow

[charred relic]

One could be useful just for examine changes in signal clipping when I swap components

[wanton orchid]

this should be 10000 times faster

[drowsy coral]

It’s Python, not the fastest language

[night girder]

and you did say it's unoptimized script

where are you running the code?

on a website or locally? since you mentioned chrome being open.

[wanton orchid]

how unoptimized can it be, I'm generating 2millions numbers with complex factoring with a python script on my machine

[drowsy coral]

Locally

[wanton orchid]

ok I just checked literally, pushing to cvs text then filtering on number of coma (streaming to text have a big cost there) : 2million number in less than a second for a thousand character python script single threaded

on a 5900X on balance_power performance setting

last number is 2619995643649944960380551432833049

[dire igloo]

Well, Matt Parker had his code optimized by over 40 billion percent

[wanton orchid]

though I'm well aware I'm expert at software optimization, I can't grasp how you could write a badly optimized fibonacci sequence engine

[dire igloo]

I mean, first step:
Generate the entire sequence for every number of the sequence instead of referencing an existing sequence

[wanton orchid]

[dire igloo]

Good ole fib(n)=fib(n-1)+fib(n-2)

[wanton orchid]

this is basically some nightmare material to me

[dire igloo]

So you generate fib(n-2) twice

First step for me if all we cared about was the n-th Fibonacci number and wouldn't need to expand:
Generate an array with n slots, then iteratively fill it and return the last number

[wanton orchid]

I mean

[dire igloo]

I haven't really coded anything aside from the mandatory stuff at uni (which I had a lot of help with)

[dire igloo]

This builds up quickly, can't imagine the number of duplicate computations from generating the 20,000th Fibonacci number

Let alone the 200,000th one

[wanton orchid]

meanwhile fragment of my python script :

    while d:
        if c:
            i = 0
        else:
            c += x[i]
            x[i] = 0
            f[i] = 1
            i += 1
        d -= 1
        x[i] += 1
        c -= 1
        if c>td: # Boosting to min_nest
            d -= c-td
            x[0] += c-td
            c = td
            if i:```

(I re sent message, and changed comment placement because satisfactory server is filtering out code comments)

[dire igloo]

Actually, shouldn't be that hard to figure out the number of wasted calculations.
If you're calculating the 200,000th Fibonacci number, you waste the entire block of fib(199,998)

So the waste of calculating the n-th Fibonacci number is the computation needed for calculating fib(n-2)

[wanton orchid]

see it as linearly increasing size vertical lines

its like every line would be 200000 high but half of that

so 200000^2/2 if it's what you think it is

- 200000

[dire igloo]

I think it's quadratic when it could be linear

[dire igloo]

And that fragment is utterly useless for anyone unfamiliar with the project

As in: I have zero clue what's going on

[wanton orchid]

it's not useless, because we are not talking about algorithm or overall design and working
but about low level operations

there you see no " thing function call of this depending of that with division"

[dire igloo]

I meant useless as in completely nonsensical to any outside person, not doesn't have a purpose

[wanton orchid]

it's literally mostly direct assignement of 1 and 0

we were talking about code performance and optimization

not about algorithm and design

[dire igloo]

I could do nothing with that code, neither tell you what it does or if there are any issues with it

[wanton orchid]

here I show how basic the operations are

what it does is not the topic

the topic is operation cost it has

[dire igloo]

Absolutely, yeah

You're just trading computational efficiency for labor efficiency

[wanton orchid]

wdym ?

you dont know what I'm trading

[dire igloo]

It's a general statement

Not targeting you specifically talking about what you were doing there

[wanton orchid]

oh wait it was ambiguous, you mean the cost of implementing such low level logic ?

[dire igloo]

Imagine a company that builds a codebase:
Running servers is costly, so they want to reduce the amount of overhead in their code.
However, they also pay programmers to continuously work on that codebase, add features, fix bugs, ensure security compliance, etc.
The code you sent I assume is very efficient in terms of computation, but it takes extra effort for programmers to get into and understand what it does - which itself creates cost

[dire igloo]

I mean the cost of having a programmer look at this and understand it with the goal of deciding if or what to change

[wanton orchid]

anyway it's not that, because it would require 20 000 000 000 operations, though they did talking about other process and it's badly enough optimized it could easily run on multiple cores

so maybe it's not so far off

[wanton orchid]

it's end tested and not so hard to grasph once you have a little bit of documentation
it does require you to not fake understanding the thing it is meant for though
but it should be the rule for any software
lower the brain cost the more bug there is because the more chatgpt you can do

[dire igloo]

And now in English please

[dire igloo]

I'd like to figure out Big O of fib(n)=fib(n-1)+fib(n-2), but it's too late and I'm too tired

[wanton orchid]

like fibonacci sequence, if you optimize it it is not necessarily more complicated
rather purified
so hard to grasp at first glance
but easy to understand once you got the logic

[wanton orchid]

wdym if you mean cost I already figured out
it linear over itself, ie quadratic

[dire igloo]

Exactly my point, "hard to grasp at first glance" - you need to look at it and invest extra effort into understanding it

[wanton orchid]

200 000 cost 200 000 ^2/2 operation

[dire igloo]

So unless you're already familiar with it, the saved computational cost added staff cost

[wanton orchid]

it's not extra effort, it's baseline effort, my point is you can't FAKE understanding it

there will always be an effort to understand what's going on

[dire igloo]

Then why'd you say "it's not that" when that's exactly what I said?

[wanton orchid]

no because again, you can be easily documentated

[wanton orchid]

where did I say "it's not that" please ???????

[dire igloo]

Which again: reading documentation is effort

Plus: there are programmers who will claim that good code doesn't need documentation because it itself is the documentation

[dire igloo]

#off-topic-tech message

[wanton orchid]

3 fucking line of documentation, instead of faking understanding hundreds of shit lines of code

stop spreading the misinformations that more spaced code is easier to read please

it's just easier to show on a slide for managers

people just dont take time to fucking actually read the fucking code

so having to read "dog and melon" out loud is more easy on the emotions than reading "ab and xy" out loud

[dire igloo]

You named your variables c, d, f, i, td and x. It takes nothing away from the code's efficiency if you use different names, but it'd make it more understandable instantly

[wanton orchid]

fair but I didnt say it's not that as in it's not what it's doing
but it's not that as it does not match the expected computation cost they experienced unless they run it multi threaded, which I said in the same message

[dire igloo]

It's random letters that could mean anything - but if you give them different names, you instantly save documentation and you also save the effort of rechecking documentation to not confuse the six different random letters with one another

[wanton orchid]

"because it would require 20 000 000 000 operations"
" though they did talking about other process and it's badly enough optimized it could easily run on multiple cores"

it does not save any documentation

stop talking void please, we are talking about understand an actual code, not anything
there is no point in understanding something quickly
you have to understand THE thing

but it's the industry standard to understand nothing useful but rush

[dire igloo]

I get why you said that. You didn't disagree with what I said, you said that what I described can't be the issue they're running into.

Which wasn't what I was talking about anyway, I used that topic as a starter to spin up my own thinking

[wanton orchid]

now go look at the landscape and have a laugh at least

[dire igloo]

Yeah, and the more hurdles you create for understanding the thing, the worse you are at your job.

I don't expect to understand the snippet's role in the project, it's a snippet after all. But I should be able to see the snippet and understand what it itself does so I don't need to look away and reference smth else (unless the snippet references smth else)

If I gave you half a Latin sentence, you could tell me what the words mean but would be unable to say what they would mean in the sentence

[wanton orchid]

" But I should be able to see the snippet and understand what it itself does so I don't need to look away" it's a bait, you will never actually
but you want it to look so you can BAIT YOURSELF INTO THINKING YOU DID

once you have the core of what it's doing you will understand better with a cleaner and more optimized code

code as a documentation is a bullshit

code is for running computers

code is not an abstract but an algorithm

and each part of it are much worse about that

they are only computation process parts

only makes sense once you grasp the whole thing which is never in the code part

matter first, then code
not the opposite way

and it's not even yet about how abstract and indirect computing is with languages with C++
basically everything is happening in the hidden dark
all the logic is BEHIND the code, NOT IN the code

I'm tired of managers who designed team up their arrogance working with DESCRIPTIVE languages (not programming languages) like
HTML
XML
JSON
and such, which dont suffer this kind of thing
or not as much, because it's just not programming at all in the end

the "I undertand quickly but I need a lot of time reading documentation about it first" team is the right team
the team which does not bait itself, but rather actually fill holes in their understanding

[dire igloo]

That's exactly what I mean, you add staff cost

[wanton orchid]

I dont

[dire igloo]

For you, the alternative is not an option

For others, it absolutely is

[wanton orchid]

you are saying buying the cheapest "tool" is costing less than buying the more stiff one

when the more stiff one is actually the only one productive

[charred relic]

I'm a cheap tool..

[dire igloo]

Because your ideals only allow for this way of coding and working.
Other people don't care about computation cleanliness, their product is service and not IT

[wanton orchid]

buying usless tools thousand times for shit will always cost more

[dire igloo]

No, I'm saying that buying a complicated but efficient tool is not always the way to go, sometimes a simple but inefficient tool is smarter

[wanton orchid]

you keep missing the point
the product service and IT is actually currently costing way more than it should because nobody is formed to actually look at what they are doing

you need team of hundreds of people figuring out shit quickly instead of 5 with working tools

[wanton orchid]

I'm not saying it's more complicated, I'm saying it's the only actually working one

[dire igloo]

And that's an industry/leadership/training issue, nothing that should influence a discussion about methodology

[wanton orchid]

you bait yourself because all the fucking companies keep losing money over insane bug fixing

[dire igloo]

Your method is also hella shit if leadership doesn't allow time to get into the matter and programmers are lazy on documentation

[wanton orchid]

ok, there re read you message and find the contradiction

[wanton orchid]

"you're method is shit if no one follow the method" lmao

nice demo

you just said the current way is shit btw

without even realizing

[dire igloo]

Except it's not. You want to add intuition complexity to the code because that way people are forced to consider documentation which they should be doing anyway

[wanton orchid]

it just lack competition

[dire igloo]

You can't tell me in good conscience that random letters are good variable names

The only reason you use them is because you believe that variable naming in code doesn't matter

[dire igloo]

That's exactly your fuckin logic

cuz anything you criticized about what I mentioned is poor implementation

[wanton orchid]

that's not at all the point I made, I never said to build complexity for the sake of it
I said building "nice" is not making it actually simpler but more complex for everyone in the end
and that it's just a tool for easier baiting yourself of thinking you grasp the thing because it is more dumb to read

all I said is my code is less complex in the end

it just dont provide the hook for stupidity

[charred relic]

shrug I only code a bit on Sketch.. I use descriptive names for variables so it's easier to read

[dire igloo]

You wouldn't need documentation of the code if at any point in the code you'd see not only what it does but also why it matters in the big picture.

The code itself is written to make sense standalone and comments function as description of why it's there doing what it does

[charred relic]

And I don't have to remember what some arbitrary letters are...

[dire igloo]

I did realize, I'm talking from an idealist perspective tho

[charred relic]

if I bring code up 3 months later i dunno wtf X is...

[dire igloo]

You're much closer tied to the actual industry, I'm not

[wanton orchid]

now you are saying every fucking function call have hundred line of documentation putting a summary of the whole software design
no go look at your billion comment line software and tell me it's easier to read, you'll get a job at microsoft btw

[dire igloo]

So I'm not even gonna attempt talking about what is happening

[charred relic]

I just use comments to denote where the code is switching to doing something else

shrug... again im just a hobbyist that does a bit in Sketch heh

[wanton orchid]

it's like saying "you dont like killing animals, ok just go buy steak in the super market then ; you sure will not rely on killing animals anymore"

it's convoluted for easier number better at the "manager" layer of retard-inc.

[dire igloo]

"calling X here cuz we need X done before Y completes, otherwise X overwrites Y and creates Z error"

You don't need to explain what X and Y do in this place

[wanton orchid]

that is only doubling the actual code line which just does that specifically

[dire igloo]

X and Y explain themselves when you look at X and Y

[wanton orchid]

it does not provide any further understanding

[dire igloo]

No, because the code only says "call X"

Btw, I'm using X, Y and Z. In reality you have actual speaking names

Not literally X, Y and Z like you did

[wanton orchid]

yes and people will not get what's going on because they dont care about what is actually X Y Z

it's the same in real life situation as I explained with supermarket steak

[dire igloo]

Calling calculateHP here before calculateDMG, otherwise lethal damage will not cause death for a frame which allows for an immortality exploit

[dire igloo]

And that's an IRL issue. Not a methodology issue

[wanton orchid]

it's absolutly a methodology issue

which just show irl too because no software design is not out of this fucking world

[dire igloo]

I could call your method shit because people won't bother writing thorough understandable documentation just like people won't have the patience to sit through pages of dry docu

[wanton orchid]

and at some point people will have to get their shit together

[dire igloo]

I don't because I know that it's good methodology in an idealized scenario

So stop applying non-ideal IRL experience to an idealistic view

[wanton orchid]

now keep repeating yourself over not reading past or even up to my arguments, I'm not going to invest more in sterile conversation

[dire igloo]

cuz you yourself said that that's bullshit

[wanton orchid]

ok now you cant even read linked message

[dire igloo]

You:
Code doesn't matter, if you wanna work on a project, you work on docu. Code is just machine interaction, not meant to be understandable.

Me:
The entire point of programming languages is to have understandable code. So make an effort to make your code understandable

[wanton orchid]

you are the one saying : it does not work BECAUSE that's not how people are doing currently

[dire igloo]

Cuz frankly, if this is what code means to you, then go write in assembly and skip the inefficiency of programming languages

[dire igloo]

I'm not saying it doesn't work tho?

I'm saying that it can be better

And comparing it to a different idealized methodology

Your code is entirely nonsensical on its own, the only way to get any understanding is through external documentation.
And now you're trying to find a bug, comparing the "this is what should be happening" documentation to the "this is what is happening" code.

Tell me that your job wouldn't be easier if you didn't have to look at random letters but proper words that tell you their meaning

[wanton orchid]

"Code doesn't matter," where did I say that, even when we are talking about HOW the code matter from start
that's even the matter of the conversation
"if you wanna work on a project, you work on docu" were did I say "you work on docu" I said : you need docu anyway because code will never actually replace that whatever you want to bait yourself into
"Code is just machine interaction, not meant to be understandable"
never said that, it's not "just machine interaction" it's for US to interact with/to machine, and yes it is meant to be understood, but only can be so if you understood the matter of the code which can't lie [only]in the code.

"he entire point of programming languages is to have understandable code" this is utterly wrong, go code for your fellow reddit enjoyers then, dont talk to me, I'm coding things that perform actual work on actual machines

"So make an effort to make your code understandable" your code will never be understandable just because you wanted it to look like it is
the matter of a code will ALWAYS lie around and be external to that code

[dire igloo]

Any mental capacity required to remember documentation ("variable c is this, td is that, x is whatever" etc) is mental capacity not available for actually working on the code

[dire igloo]

Another language barrier issue leading to a discussion about semantics.

[wanton orchid]

if you believe language barrier is preventing you from grasping even the central topic of what I'm saying, then stop mentionning me

[dire igloo]

I'm not saying that code should require no outside project documentation

[wanton orchid]

you are

[dire igloo]

But what the code is doing should be recognizable from the code

[wanton orchid]

it will never be only from the code

you required to grasp it even from a fragment

[dire igloo]

No I'm not. The only time I mentioned it is when I said that others would say it

I think that external documentation for coding projects is needed

[night girder]

yeah, I do too. Unless it's x,y for dimensions or n as a number in a loop. The standard ones. For the same reason. Readable code.

[dire igloo]

But only for the big scope, not the literal codebase

[jagged snow]

I disagree on needed, agree on welcome

[wanton orchid]

tldr: if there are so many bugs there is a reason, and the reason is people keep using code for what it is not meant to

[dire igloo]

This piece of code without documentation is completely meaningless. There is zero way of knowing what it does.
I think that THAT is bullshit

[wanton orchid]

and it fails spectacularly

[dire igloo]

I specifically said projects. It's not just meant for documenting the code, it's for the entire project

[dire igloo]

Exactly this

[jagged snow]

Yeah, the clarifier you followed up with made it sound a lot better

[dire igloo]

You take two weeks vacation and now you not only gotta get back into the project but also figure out anything the team did

[jagged snow]

I tend to pride myself on coding in a style that I can refamiliarize myself with relatively easily even after a while, but that only works because I code solo

[dire igloo]

if you're lucky, the team already wrote docu for the code

[night girder]

if it works for you, that's what matters.

[dire igloo]

If you're not, you're looking at nonsensical code with incomplete docu that is both the most important for the team RN and completely cryptic for yoz

[wanton orchid]

it's not, you know I'm assigning some f[s] = 1 etc..
you just didnt need to know more
if you need to know more then I would have explained quickly and/or provided a documentation doing so
you pretend that it would be more complex and slower and costly than having code doing shit and with fancy names
I explained it will never be
unless the code is both ugly AND wrong
i.e an optimized code is not ugly in the end, and having it not "graspable in a blink of an eye" is simply guarding against you baiting yourself thinking you can grasp ANYTHING in a blink of an eye, which is never true

[dire igloo]

I want the code to do the exact fucking same but with different names???

That's all I'm saying

x, c, d, f, td, whatever they all mean absolutely nothing

They're nonsense, random letters, alphabet soup diarrhea

Give the same code different names, nothing changes but the code gets more intuitive

[wanton orchid]

and I said they are meaningless simply becasue you lack context

once you have context they will be way less meaningless

now I agree I could make the names 3 letters

but I never claimed my code was optimized bcause my names was short

I just showed for the sake of you seening the low level operations

which are very far from division matrix or even function call operations

understanding the line x+=1 is straight forward

the operation is very limited

[dire igloo]

There are four variables whose names would make sense in context:
td being some specific time (because t is commonly used to declare specific times)
i is a common loop variable name used for counted iterations, not ideal but common enough to be intuitive
C and D are common drive letters in windows

[wanton orchid]

at most you could ask "is it just integers or some special objects ?" which I would answer : just simple integers

no hidden thing

[dire igloo]

Every single variable in that piece of code could have its understandability improved by having a different name

And most of them wouldn't lose their meaning if replaced with other nonsense

[dire igloo]

How do short names make more optimal code?

[dire igloo]

Yeah, I know that you increased X by 1.
What is X? Why do you add 1?

[wanton orchid]

ok let me decrypt for you for free
though again this code is not meant to be self contained or even shared or maintained, it was just to show the operations layout

[dire igloo]

Btw, c and d obviously don't refer to drive letters. However, that's the only time I'd consider c and d to be acceptable variable names

[wanton orchid]

that exact last question can't be summirized with a nice name, that is context

[dire igloo]

Btw, I could completely understand if you intentionally made the code cryptic to avoid NDA violations

[dire igloo]

That last question will not make sense from the snippet, I agree. But the snippet should provide enough context for me to know that outside the snippet, X going up has meaning

tbf, I'm making this extra hard on myself and by extension you, because I'm hella inexperienced in programming, it's late at night and I haven't had my meds today

Also on my phone instead of my PC

[wanton orchid]

here, is like :
c : cursor (depth)
d : like "data target" it's like the line/data id, also technically a cursor
x : array of integer, like polynom coefficients
f : array of integer, holding end factors
i : index in the arrays the working dimension in between iterations

[dire igloo]

Yeah, that's uhhh

Complicated stuff

just as an example: why would you not rename c into smth like cursorDepth?

[wanton orchid]

it's like jumping around in arrays depending of what number factors we are at that we are about to compute

it basically do the opposite of that fibonacci recompute
it actively skips any computation intermediate step if possible

that's why # Boosting to min_nest comment is there, because that part is more complicated and actually skip something transversal to the iterations

note it affect d

thus keeping the whole iteration loop consistent still

[dire igloo]

I see what you mean with the code needing the documentation and understanding the big picture to make sense

[wanton orchid]

it basically skip whole iteration inside a single iteration

[dire igloo]

I just feel like you'd make it much easier for anyone to see the big picture if you didn't pixelate it

[wanton orchid]

I just didnt want to bother explaining it, but ended having to explain even more smh

[dire igloo]

It's definitely complicated operations obviously for the sake of optimizing computation.
all at the expense of mental load still - you could write less efficient code which is easier to understand, you'd just miss the main goal which is optimization

[dire igloo]

Ironically: the main question I had about the code, you didn't answer
#off-topic-tech message

Why not name c into smth more readable like cursorDepth?
It's a simple rename, what would you lose out on?

That's what I was discussing about the code, you probably didn't need to explain most of it - tho knowing my stubborn ass, I would've made the discussion hell without it

[wanton orchid]

the worse part is it have to work for abitrary intermediate length without computing first steps if possible
like if you wanted the fibonacci but from step [154:157] only
it will be able to render that
it's combinatory tricks

[wanton orchid]

because even for myself it would be baity

c is like much more pure

no a priori

btw td is how much we have to move/moved in c which affects d directly

it like translate from c to d

it's a cursor tracker/keeper

as soon as you say "cursor" then you start to ask "what cursor" "cursor of what" and you go down lower in meaning seeing a standard one instead of this specific one

there are like 3 or 4 dimensions in this loop I'm slowly starting to firgure out
it's all logical but I can understand if someone feel it's scary from outside

[dire igloo]

Anyways, all of that is just stuff you have to keep in mind.
Mental capacity taken up merely with remembering functionality, not available for analysing or reworking it

[wanton orchid]

my point is you would have to get algorithm doc first, and only then start looking at this code

it would not make sense otherwise

it's like a oneway coding

[dire igloo]

Your code is what I'd hack up initially to test a theory.
If it worked, I'd make it more verbose.
If it didn't work, I'd pick descriptive names to see if my theory was wrong or the implementation

[wanton orchid]

and you would have to go the same path to pretend improving it (by going further)

[dire igloo]

And at that point: why can't the algorithm doc be the code?

Or why do you write the code in any coding language?

[wanton orchid]

because it does not perform any action, you still have to follow actions
it's like saying "there are 100 humans there" you still have to conditionnally feed EACH one of them
saying "we feed 100 humans" is not the code

so when you take the fork first, then open the trunk
you should not be saying you are feeding human there, because you are not, you are opening the trunk and taking the fork

why it's more efficient that way why it work for the purpose is not directly in the code

[dire igloo]

You should still say that the whole block of operations is feeding a human.
That way you both know that you need to look there for starvation problems and elsewhere for dehydration issues

[dire igloo]

Your specific operations in each single line of code may each not be feeding a human. But the entire block of operations is

It's like saying "I'm not baking a cake. I'm mixing and arranging ingredients, then apply heat and serve"

[wanton orchid]

but this does not explain the operations

[dire igloo]

You should say in the recipe why you're adding salt or saffron as well as make sense of the operation

But you can skip explaining the apples as an ingredient in apple pie as well as explaining why you shove it in the oven

But you should absolutely explain why you sieve the flour or cover the cake with tinfoil

[wanton orchid]

ok let put this differently :
a well optimized code will likely have 3 operations for 15 reasons
putting the hundreds of comment lines there in between the +1 and -1
is not serving well
just put the comments in a doc, then refer to it in the code

[dire igloo]

Which is fine if it's complicated code like yours that needs lots of iterations

[wanton orchid]

the baking recipe will link at the "pastry for masters volume 1"

[dire igloo]

A simple-ish jump n run game probably doesn't need a separate document for just the code, but it should absolutely have one to scope out the project

[wanton orchid]

I'm depressed to see that my little code already go into this category

for me it's a half dumb piece of code

and I'm so proud it performs so well

but I didnt write a phd about it

yet the doc would be external

[dire igloo]

It's complicated in the sense that it can't be made sense of without requiring an amount of elaboration that'd overblow the code

[dire igloo]

To me, pastry for masters sounds like a book series that any baker reads, anywhere in the world working on any cake in any bakery
The coding equivalent wouldn't be inhouse docu, it'd be some general coding principle or a piece of external public documentation

[wanton orchid]

see martial art

you can NOT * summirize well any action as fast as they are performed

they need multiple years working on details

yet you could make it look like it, in a week or so

it would be bugged though

now not everyone need to be martial art master

but when you go to fight on the war field, without any firearm
you better have paid for the martial artist

it's more efficient

less blood too

[wanton orchid]

oh fuck sorry missed important word again

[wanton orchid]

less expensive in the end

I'm not yelling at web graphic designer not being able to optimized 3d engines over internet network
I'm yelling that teaching methodology on how to code 3d engine like a web app is bullshit

and it's inefficient as fuck

I'm close to think it's industry sabotage at this point

[wanton orchid]

if it's bad general principles then people will not generally be able to compete

we live in world where we ask martial artist to do bakery with "bakery for dummies" book at hand
and cooking master to do fighting

because the "cost less"

then everyone wonder why world living comfort got multiple points back

my whole code fit on a screen

you can easily read the doc while having the code and its whole structure at hand

[charred relic]

Sketch is already above my pay grade SHRUG

I have to just keep the manual up to reference things

[languid gulch]

ngl Calculus for Dummies got me thru to differential equations

[glacial zephyr]

Not surprised honestly, calc 3 is basically just higher dimensional applications of the fundamental theorem of calculus lol

[languid gulch]

looks like the 9070XT is gonna have 3 PCIe power connectors

[verbal raft]

[languid gulch]

hoo boy

[verbal raft]

3 to 10 times more than nothing still equals nothing

[languid gulch]

yea good point

[languid gulch]

i wonder if commercial/enterprise 50 series has missing ROPs

cuz THAT would make them panic

[verbal raft]

ROPs don't affect enterprise AFAIK

[willow pike]

i don't think they even have ROPs