#5 Guard Stone (On the current state of the rumble meta)

[atomic vine]

Tamrell

This post is part of a set of 6 posts where I talk about the current meta:

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#1: The second jump/airdash: https://rumble.canny.io/suggestions/p/1-the-second-jump-airdash-on-the-current-state-of-the-rumble-meta

#2: Knockback: https://rumble.canny.io/suggestions/p/2-knockback-on-the-current-state-of-the-rumble-meta

#3: Volatile stone: https://rumble.canny.io/suggestions/p/3-volatile-stone-on-the-current-state-of-the-rumble-meta

#4: Stubborn stone: https://rumble.canny.io/suggestions/p/4-stubborn-stone-on-the-current-state-of-the-rumble-meta

#5: Guard Stone: https://rumble.canny.io/suggestions/p/5-guard-stone-on-the-current-state-of-the-rumble-meta

#6: Client/host balancing: https://rumble.canny.io/suggestions/p/6-client-host-balancing-on-the-current-state-of-the-rumble-meta

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5 Guard Stone

Guard stone is a really cool idea and I would like to see it being competitively viable.

Before this can be the case however, I think some changes will really be necessary

• I think shiftstones adding an entire new pose can be slightly confusing and creates bigger asymmetries in playstyles that players have access to. In a discussion with Nat we found a nice solution to this: I think a standard "Brace" pose (same pose as guard) should be added to the base kit that makes you take 1 less damage (again, since this is a very intentional pose, its balanced in the sense that you will always have to choose between this defensive option OR playing proactively). )

Then the guard shiftstone can "enhance" this move by adding an overshield with additional effects:

• instead of letting you take 1 damage less, having guard block all damage but the shield has its own health pool

• if not giving the shield its own health pool: adding some timing mechanic that blocks more damage when timing the entering or leaving the pose with the structure hitting it.

I t(...)

(...)hink this would be way more interesting (there could also be more mechanical interactions like the size depending on its hp, with the hp regenerating over time as long as it never reaches 0)

This would especially also encourage more high paced usage of guard and transitioning between it and playing offensively rather than just having it up for a longer time.

[atomic vine]

XBI3CWNT8YSL

Brace pose would just slow down the game, or even if it doesnt it would create the expectation of a slower game for newer players.

Your_Neighbor_Nat

XBI3CWNT8YSL In your opinion, what is the main way it would slow down the game?

Your_Neighbor_Nat

I obviously agree on adding the base "Brace" pose idea considering we came to that conclusion during our discussion. :P

In regard to Brace, I think it should probably be a move players get as white belts. Also, I think it should give -1 damage against any hit, not just in a certain zone like the current Guard move. If enhanced with Guard Stone, then that -1 damage could allow for some minor protection to what is not covered by the Guard shield.

In regard to Guard stone, I think it'd be fine to keep the current mechanics, except have it fully block one hit of damage from one single attack and then take some time to regenerate over the course of several seconds. Standard Brace pose could continue to work in the meantime and when the Guard shield is recharged, the Guard stone could make a "ding" sound and put off some minor orange particles.

Tamrell

Your_Neighbor_Nat I really like this idea, the only downside would be that if it breaks after 1 hit most existing guard tech would not work anymore

This could make for a really nice new stone though (Barrier stone?👀) I'm imagining it'd be a lot like cube + explode to block an incoming attack (you get pushed back while the structure coming at you is stopped or breaks with the cube)

Lux

Brace and counts seems like ideas that would either slow the game, stall the game or negate part of the game. What makes rumble interesting among other things is that it gives you tools to fight but no direction. Adding notes on why how and when to a versatile technique looks like a sure way to lower my options.

I don't think guard is used for too long per se, I think this is a problem of any stone. Overuse of volatile gets one out of the ring, overuse of charge gets one slow and dull. It's not the stone problem, just a user.

What guard lacks is a better kb protection allowing for a more dynamic use. It's possible right now but at high level of skill.

Forget the brace idea, and adding timings or values to count.

Your_Neighbor_Nat

Tamrell If Guard tech needs to be retained as-is for a refresh/rework, I suppose Guard could just do what it does now, but have it stack with the -1 Brace could give, resulting in a -2 when a structure hits the Guard shield, while giving -1 from the base Brace pose when hit anywhere else.

Your_Neighbor_Nat

Lux The idea of adding a "Brace" move is to allow for the Guard pose to be something that's useful to build into muscle memory even if you don't use Guard stone. That way, if someone wants to use other stones after using Guard for a significant amount of time, that person isn't accidentally doing a pose that does nothing. And I suppose this can work the other way around too: adding Brace as a move may allow for people to already have experience with doing the pose before trying the Guard Stone. For the reason(s) above, I think this may be a useful addition.

P.S.

The idea I thought might work for this, before Tamrell and I came up with Brace, was that Guard could just be changed into a stone that modifies Parry instead.

L3mmi05/Val

While I think that the brace idea is very interesting, adding damage negation to the base kit is a bad idea in my opinion. Besides discouraging people from learning proper blocking techniques (which is a critique that is currently levied a lot against guard, and one I personally agree with), this would further enhance the "damage negation" meta we are currently in, with stubborn and adamant being arguably the two strongest stones in the game. Adding Brace would allow you tank balls to the face with adamant active, with stubborn adamant you could dash through cubes undamaged.

To address guard itself, I'm of the opinion that guard is fine the way it is. Its a niche stone, yes. But that doesn't make it bad. If used correctly, it can negate ship damage and create both structure advantage and positioning advantage at the cost of health, creating a unique way to approach the fight.

While guard isn't seen a lot at higher levels of play, I personally see that as a lack of experience: Within the past few months, guard has made a lot of advancements, and I think if we just let the community work on it for a bit longer, we might get some formidable guard users soon.

I also don't think that players having guard up for extended periods of time is a serious issue at proper play. The only two situations I ever hold up guard for extended periods of time is if I'm either being disc-spammed, in which case I don't see how that's a bad thing to do, its the same as hiding behind a wall, or if I'm actively forcing guard usage to practice timings or moves.

tldr: I dislike adding even more damage negation, and guard is fine the way it is.

Sauerkraut

I love the unique healthpool idea and am glad to finally see a suggestion post about it. Another thing I think would be really cool what be some sort of punishment when your guard healthpool runs out. Maybe have the shield explode with the force of a volatile cube or something. A system like that would also open the doors for a lot of new tech since not taking damage from your own tech is a big contributer for making tech actually have a point, and with a potential explode on shield brake even more cool stuff could be done!

XBI3CWNT8YSL

Your_Neighbor_Nat

Of course my playstyle influences the way i think of rumble's balance, but the game is at its best when theres tension. If one player is parrying everything, there is very little tension. What would be worse is if they had to constantly hold down a pose to defend and didnt have time for other moves. The game has a solution: RTS. Getting your moves returned has tension, and therefor makes the game faster.

Secondly, a brace move wouldnt be that usefull when parry, ground, and RTS already exists and are way more powerfull. Even guard users, the current brace move, do RTSs and the likes. If a move is in the game only to be shadowed in the future it shouldnt be in the game at all, it just creates bloat.

Your_Neighbor_Nat

XBI3CWNT8YSL Would it remove that much tension if it's just a -1 damage while bracing? I can imagine its primary use, when someone isn't wearing a Shift Stone that would buff it (directly or indirectly), is that you could tank disk spam while walking forward, thereby pushing your opponent to mix-up.

ContagiousPow

L3mmi05/Val I mean, if following along with the Stubborn suggestion, then it is clear that some changes should be made in Tamrell's eyes, and so it would be 1 damage cubes with bracing. I think that bracing is a cool idea for reactivity, still taking damage, but less (and maybe taking less kb like guard does?), but it may need some downside like you have to be standing still, as dash > brace > dash > brace would be very overpowered.

ContagiousPow

XBI3CWNT8YSL I saw bracing as a way to take less damage, sure, but not no damage. I also would think that bracing has you taking some kb as well, but limited, like what guard does. By your logic, parry is the only defensive move that should be in the game, because you can parry everything. Ground has its utilities, but using it for defense is useless cause parry does it better. I think that brace could be good for both quick defense and offensive combos, as well as maybe adding to flight, like guard does with flapping. I could even imagine some nerfs, like brace requiring you to be still/on the ground to dig your heels in, or it not reducing all kb, but some.