The butcher is immune to fire because of taxidermy was it not?
#lore-discussion
molten forge
jagged tide
You can read Immolators backstory in the book of monsters (or here in the pinned data, if you havent unlocked all of it yet ingame 😉 )
molten forge
Some nutjob stuffed a meathead as a taxidermy project
jagged tide
Yeah, he is just a piece of clay with the skin of a meathead. But we dont know what brought this "golem" to life. And he has a fire-attack
molten forge
Considering that even a piece of the sculptor's creation is enough (the armored's husk is filled with maggot-like creatures) it could be possible that it simply repossessed its body. Since the Sculptor's creations do get repaired iirc
Maybe the fire attack came by chance
Or it could be another Loa/higher power at play
jagged tide
Yes, that was my thought so far as well: The maggots in the skin of the meathead crept into the clay-body and made it functional. Afaik the Grunts are controlled by those maggots as well. Their bodys are alive, but not in the same way a human body works. But the bosses seem to serve a specific purpose for the sculptor: The ingame-theories of Black et al seem to suggest, that the "spider" devours dysfunctional creations of the sculptor (like antibodies in the human body that destroy cancer-cells) and the "Assassin" is meant as an "Antibody" or defense-mechanism against AHA-hunters (one fights inner, one fights outer enemies). But what is the Butchers purpose? In his lair are always lots of animal-bodies, so maybe he gathers and refines organic material for the sculptors work (like a real butcher kinda does for the meat industry). But maybe he is rly different. Since he is an animated heap of clay, he is basicly a golem. "Golems" are a myth about humans made of clay, brought to life with the prupose to defend the persecuted believers in abrahmitic religion (mainly in jewish tradition). This is quite similar to the Immolaters origin story, of a priest who didnt back down against criminal syndicates that haunt his community - and calls for a higher power to create a supernatural guardian that will protect his people from those thuggs. Maybe the skin of the Meathead just acted like some kind of conducter for another supernatural being...
Most enemies in the bayou are very vulnerable to fire, except for the butcher and the Immolator. Maybe they rly are some kind of an own faction. But currently I dont see that much indication towards this theory. But who knows? There might be some "Loa" in the Huntverse, that is similar to or sympathic with the abrahamitic god and has an affinity to fire, just like the sculptor seems to have an affinity to insects (and mby water?).
That the butcher came from a Meathead is interesting as well, since the first Meathead wasnt a creation of the sculptor either, but the twisted child of 2 very powerful hunters.
snow dome
Hey guys I have a theory I think that the stamina shot is a form of heroin, i'll explain. The liquid in the shot is a pale almost sickly yellow similar to heroin and back in the old times up until around 1945 Drugs were used on soldiers to giv ethem a boost of energy which is a side effect of heroin So it is not unlikly that it will not be used as at the time it is viewed as some kind of miracle elixir although heroin does need to be heated up which I assume is heated up on the ride their Another interesting thing is the weak and normal variants meaning that new hunters don't have acsess to proper shots because it is too much for them they have to build an immunity first and heroin was made 1874 and was used comercially up to the 1898 which is around the assumed time period, please discuss.
junior pecan
@jagged tide Jehovah is a thing in Voodoo. Loa exist on a plane of existence between our reality and heaven. The “overgod” and master of all others is called Gran Met. Most likely answer to the origin of the sculptor is latent spiritual energy igniting his biochemistry due to an inactive religious practice. Christians dont cast spells they just sit around praising god and calling themselves bad names. Spiritual energy built up and was excited by a stressful event, sculptors influence acted as the spiritual mutagen it is, and the man exploded.
Christianity doesnt have spells, but old testament and Judaism does.
Gran met is probably the origin or creator of all spiritual energy as the immolator shows. Just as when god made the sun plants thrived, so too does some spiritual resource in the Loa realm drive them.
quaint estuary
Can you guys recommend a good primer for the lore? Hoping for a youtube video.
jagged tide
@snow dome Hmm. Sounds possible and might make sense (except for the heating part). Might be a good question for the next QnA... But since the AHA seems to have access to some fictional "alchemy" (healing-shots) it could as well be some kinda of magic elixir. I never tried it, but Heroine is an opiade, right? Wouldnt that mean it should rather make u sleepy & relaxed instead of hyperactive?
@quaint estuary Some of the pinned data in this channel. Youtube... nope. Could search for it, but so can you. If you find smthg let us know 😉
quaint estuary
@jagged tide I should have looked at the pinned messages lol. If I find something I definitely will!
Thanks
snow dome
@jagged tide I did a little research and found one website on drug abuse saying it can release dopamine and adrenaline might have found an illegitamate site (I didn't want to go searching around typing up stuff about heroine just in case someone checks my history) And I think you might be right about the magic and like I said perhpas its a more fictional form taking inspiration from the "new" medicine discovered considering it was founded quite recently at the time of the game but thanks for the comments one of my first theories and hopefully not the last that pops into my head👍
jagged tide
If it stimulates adrenaline-production it would make alot of sense. Maybe the use of heroine and other new drugs on soldiers was even the inspiration for the dev-team, but they slightly changed it and didnt call it "heroine-shot" for not getting into trouble (similar with changing the names of some weapons) - getting the game called out to promote the use of druggs wouldnt be good publicity 😉
u got a good point there
Please share, even if your not sure. The lore of the game is so cloaked in mystery (or maybe underdeveloped 😄 ) that none of us can do much more then spouting out our little evidence-based theories. Its more a guessing/detectives-game then real lore-knowledge here in this channel, so everybodys ideas/opinions are as good as yours 🙂
snow dome
@jagged tide So I pulled up incognito mode and found some more info you were right at first it's a rush of energy then for several hours later your world is slowed as if you were in a dream So I am assuming they might use it as a base applying Affects to prolong the intial burst iof energy and who knows maybe the magic infused can permantly liquify the stamina shot. And once again thank you for being so nice playing hunt for a week and checking out discord has shown me how little we know😆 but yeah I hope my theory has opened some new doors.
amber harbor
What if bosses are all the magnum opus of a certain entity? We never see them interact, and would solidify the presence of more loas
junior pecan
Not the point. Whether Sculptor is one Loa or an association is beyond our current level of theorizing. Maybe if we understood more about soul physics we could make some sense of that possibility, but as is we struggle to understand the Loa at all, much less their alliances.
jagged tide
@amber harbor That would be rly nice. Drunk linguistic me is btw rly impressed by you using the term "magnum opus". It conveys so much awesome information 🙂
molten forge
Could it perhaps be that the "bosses" are perhaps avatars of the Loa? ones they possess personally?
junior pecan
No. Possession is more articulate than that. The most likely case is sculptors possession is spread thin across all of the AI, thus why they dont kill eachother for the most part
Singular possessions in voodoo are more like active seances with weird rules attached depending on the Loa
You can have full on conversations with a demigod as long as you dont fuck up the ritual
molten forge
Then perhaps a focal point?
Considering how much energy gets released upon banishment
It is legit a twister of energy
junior pecan
Whether they are a focal point is a good question. Odds are yes considering how active a role they take when not in the hunt. Spider kills rogue AI. Assassin picks off Hunters and might do some espionage shit. We dont know about Butcher
molten forge
The Butcher might have been a freak accident, considering meatheads are created by hunters, and the butcher is a stuffed meathead, created by a human.
junior pecan
Most of them are freak accidents, but theyre all “cloned” for a purpose, we have just yet to find said purpose.
molten forge
Cloned or repaired?
molten forge
Possibly.
Either way the Sculptor does seem somewhat opportunistic
As both meatheads, Butcher and immolators are not inherently from the Sculptor
molten forge
I've read a bit on it
junior pecan
Aight, so the important part here is how foreign he is.
Notice how we dont know what sculptor looks like, or how he even functions
molten forge
He is immaterial, and likely doesn't even have a form
It could very well be that the Sculptor is a living concept.
junior pecan
Precisely, It goes both ways. Sculptor cant make sense of biology and we cant make sense of soul physics
molten forge
Hell, with a bit of a stretch you could include Tulpa theory into it
Living thoughtforms
Though this is more tibetan rather than voodoo
junior pecan
It all works together in the end
Could be something along those lines but that would crush mirror theory as it is based in evolutionary analysis, stuff that wouldnt work if its tulpa.
Can a being of thought know hunger? Or ambition?
molten forge
It could.
junior pecan
How? Theyre biological concepts exerted on the concious
molten forge
a tulpa can essentially be considered a being that is "thought" into existence by a collective thought.
junior pecan
Theyre blackmail from one half of the brain to the other
molten forge
Something like a deity or a concept could in theory, easily be thought into existence
junior pecan
If its based in thought then i suppose it could mimic any aspect of it.
But that feels exploitable
junior pecan
Only due to an assumption that it wants something at all
molten forge
There is also the scribblings of someone who slowly was succumbing to becoming a grunt
junior pecan
Madness is madness, it should not be taken as proof of much
molten forge
Where it seemed to work in similar manners to schizophrenia
I don't take it as proof.
But should not be glanced over either
Understanding the process of how one turns can help with understanding how the Sculptor works
The fact that it's both a corruption of mind AND body is an important fact.
If the two are linked is another story altogether
junior pecan
We knew that already, the behavior of AI shows mental degradation and/or influence
What information we could gleam from the account (possible psionic communication as a means of control resulting in someone literally hearing voices) is unreliable due to the variable nature of human madness
molten forge
True
twin swan
You're referring to William Salter, I presume?
twin swan
No, I mean when you were talking about someone becoming a Grunt.
molten forge
Salter's is also a good example
junior pecan
I think winkler might be in the old lore doc
quaint olive
Can someone tell me, why a meathead, a headless creature, is called a meathead?
jagged tide
@twin swan "The Trials of Dr. Reed " 4th page in the pinned "Hunt_Showdown_News"-file. Its obvious, that the same happened to Reed that happened with Salter, even so Salter was killed before the process was complete. I doubt both of them were becoming Grunts, especialy not Salter. The story of Reed is prbly linked to the creation of the Spider, since the Spider was made out of the members of Reeds group - still, the devs have been asked and answered that Reed did not become the Spider.
cough to mention my own small theory: note that both, Reed & Salter, write about a boy being present with them.
twin swan
I'd like to see Russel as a legendary hunter, myself.
I always imagine him as a sort of Leon S. Kennedy looking guy
Pretty fellow, but a crackshot with that Nagant.
jagged tide
And not as much a cynic, nihilistic psychopath as most people in the lore 🙂 Btw: His story with the snake might be a hint, that he is under the protection of the same "loa" as Fin & Jos. So hopefully we will hear more about him in the future.
snow dome
@molten forge Hey koncertina, can you tell me how the meatheads were created I know the immolater was a miscasted spell that burnt the priest whom casted it but I don't know how the meathead was created?
molten forge
@snow dome Meathead was created by two very powerful hunters
jagged tide
The Meathead was the child of two very powerful hunters. the act of becoming a hunter (not sure which part... maybe the serum, maybe the ritual) did something with the unborn child. The child gave power to its mother who became RLY strong during pregnancy and destroyed many creatures. But when the time came, the baby wasnt "born" but clawed its way out of its mothers womb and had the deformed body we know as the meathead (the mother was laughing while she was ripped apart by her newborn). This is the reason, why for a long time there were only male hunters (the mother of the first meathead was hunting in disguise of a man) - to prevent the birth of such abominations. So the problems were known. The AHA then changed their serum to sterilize everyone who takes it (all hunters are thereby infertil) to prevent incidents like this and allow female hunters back into their ranks. Afaik you can read all of this in the entries of the meathead.
@snow dome
snow dome
Oh thank senf this sounds very cool and thank you for the info I’ll have to make another theory know😂
jagged tide
The act of becoming a hunter involves some terrible stuff. There are theories about the first Hellhound coming into existing because the dog called "bunny" bit the ear of his owner (a hunter) and took in some of his blood. Another theory says the water devil being just parasite-worms that grew inside of hunters who ate rotten meat - and got changed by the stuff in their host's blood. This as well hints towards something else: If those creatures were "created" unwillingly by the Hunters and only ONCE, how comes the Bayou is swarming with them, doing the sculptors biding (afaik Bunny, the first meathead & the first Waterdevils were all even killed later)? Here comes the theory into play, that the sculptor just duplicates powerfull/usefull beings he finds in the Bayou and makes these mindless copies his servants (similar for the Immolater btw).
So the sculptor isnt rly creative, just someone who copies what he finds. Grunts still have the shapes of the humans they were in life. Immolaters, Hellhounds, Waterdevils and the Meatheads were (probably) not created by the sculptor. The Butcher was put into his form by a taxodermist that found a meatheads body. The Assassin had at least similar abilitys, but a human form, before he entered the Bayou (is it the same "person"? or just a copy of the original Assassin?). The Spider seems to have been some "Frankenstein"-experiment of Dr. Reed (or better: the thing possessing Reed). So the only real creations of the Sculptor would be the Hive and the Armored.
junior pecan
@snow dome It wasnt a spell it was excess spiritual energy. Christians dont have spells its a very passive religion. Old Testament has some but thats mostly a Judaic thing.
jagged tide
A prayer could be interpreted as a summoning though, especially in roman-catholic and/or orthodox christianity, where there is a lot of praying to saints instead of praying to god/jesus himself. And many cultures interpret spells & magic not like a fantasy rpg as something that comes from the caster, but from the supernatural beings he is calling upon when casting a spell. Not much different then a prayer imho. (no offense meant to any religious people, we just talk about how things might be in the Huntverse).
junior pecan
@jagged tide compare christianity to mystic Judaism, or voodoo, or any pagan religion, its different, as can be seen by the creation of the immolator. Just as armoreds are created from beings of great spiritual stress, immolators have christian backgrounds because of the passive relationship between abrahamic worship and soul physics. We have spells and rituals in the lore, see the pax entries, there is a clear distinction between types of religious practice and their respective results in soul physics.
Thats why i make the distinction
That and because the priest didnt cast anything, he was just reciting scripture
jagged tide
Not sure where to post this, so I put most of it into "suggestions-discussion": There has been the idea for some time to make community events / community-lore AHA-factions. But since not much in this regard has happened recently I thought about a small decentral/un-coordinated faction event for the time after patch 1.4 hits live-servers. Just a minor thing to test if this might work. Since we (get amongst other stuff) a rework of the fire-mechanic, I thought about an event introducing a small faction of the AHA consisting of christian religious fanatics that believe, that the evil of the Bayou must be cleansed with holy fire in the name of the lord. Work-inprogress name for this chapter of the AHA would be "The Flaming Sword of our Lord & Saviour". So I would post a set of rules for people who want to role-play with their friends as members of this faction in the weeks after the next patch. The "rules" would be guidelines for the dresscode and behaviour of that faction, so that people can over time recognise teams participating. Since we still have some time until then I thought about posting my idea to discuss it, maybe change some things and gather people who might wanna participate.
junior pecan
Three things. First, religious fanatics feels meh, what denomination are they? Do they debate scripture amongst themselves? Does it affect their cooperation in the bayou? Are they in opposition to other known factions?
Second, if we’re going to limit weapons and outfits it should be accessible and inoffensive. Focus on making a viable loadout that is respectable but vulnerable in some way.
Third, i dont like the WIP name, its lame enough to be a real christian denomination. Maybe link it to a biblical figure or saint associated with fire?
jagged tide
Three things. First, religious fanatics feels meh, what denomination are they? Do they debate scripture amongst themselves? Does it affect their cooperation in the bayou? Are they in opposition to other known factions?
@junior pecan Debate scripture? I doubt most people at that time could even read. And it would be way to difficult for people to participate in the event if they would have to learn about christian mythology/lore. I deliberatly chose to make it simple. Loosly christian, fanatic, pyromanic. Other factions practice magic, which is the devils work. BURN THEM!
Second, if we’re going to limit weapons and outfits it should be accessible and inoffensive. Focus on making a viable loadout that is respectable but vulnerable in some way.
@junior pecan Don get that point. I had a theme in my head when I choose allowed items & skins: big & simple guns (Nitro, bolt-action, single-action), no hight-tech (semi-automatic, etc), no stealth (X-Bows, silencers, etc), no melee weapons (they are not born fighters and dont wanna touch those sinful beings). High damage weapons with slow fire-rate has nice synergies with fire (as long as some scorched Hp remains your a one-shot for Sparks - similar with Lebel, Martini, Rival, even Springfield). The main weeknes is: They are loud. Without melee weapons & silenced range (throwing knives, xbows, silnecers) there is nearly no way to kill AI silently. Still: You can get a full (and effective) outfit with the allowed weapons even at rank 1 (Romero, Nagant, Health-kit, Firebombs). Romero&Pax is one of the best and cheapest loadouts even on high level play. And Lebel, Rival, Sparks are all nice Weapons as well. At higher Tier you can use Nitro or Mosin. Only secondary weapon is a bit on the weak side with only Nagant, Conversion or Pax.
Third, i dont like the WIP name, its lame enough to be a real christian denomination. Maybe link it to a biblical figure or saint associated with fire?
@junior pecan Understand that. Was only a working title anyway. The Archangel Michael uses a fire-sword and is as well the Archangel representing the fire-element in the jewish kabala. So how about "Order of St.Michael" or "Flaming Sword of St.Michael"?
St Barbara is often associated with fire, but even more with explosives (I served in an Artillerie-batalion and she is also the protecter of artillery... but that would make more sense if the faction was more into blowing things up instead of BURNING them). So a name related to her might be possible as well.
Since christianaty was alot more sexistic at that time (even compared to todays churches) the faction might as well be restricted to male skins...
junior pecan
Order of st. Michael sounds much cooler. On the debating scripture part i was talking about the lack of lore or depth on the group, and on weapons i think that focusing on sparks would be a good idea in combination with fire, currently though i feel like the range of allowed weaponry is too broad and likely to just be ignored
jagged tide
Ah! I misunderstood you there. So you would reduce the amount of allowed weapons even further? Ok. I wanted Lebel and Rival in there, cause those have skins related to priests and rival even to fire... and Romero, Nagant & Springfield are weapons unlocked on lvl 1. But your prbly right... Which weapons would you suggest to be allowed? As I said, since this is more like a first try, I wanted to keep the lore kinda simple to not create too much "canon"-lore people might feel obligated to dive into. More like a mob of fanatics, that were deeply disturbed by the Louvent and searched for an easy explanation for what was happening (and got recruited by a few fanatic hunters of the AHA), rather then an old group of the Vatican or anything. Thats why they would be so hostile towards other hunters: They see the devil at work, and who is not on their side in cleaning the Bayou with fire, must be on the side of the devil.
junior pecan
That explanation is fair. As for weapons, i’d say reduce it to sparks, Springfield or rival, strictly American guns that one would associate with rural Christianity. Maybe even go with “No secondary, loot the weapon of your choosing” or something along those lines. No melee is a very good idea as it provides a reasonable challenge
jagged tide
Ok, I tried to rework the whole thing a bit. Not sure if I want to tak out the Lebel though (mostly because of the altar-boy), left Vetterli as a cheap Lebel bolt-action... even so you sure got a point with "strictly american guns"... hmm. Im gonna sleep about it 🙂 I tried to make a lore-background, that keeps the story simple, but its still very improvised.
Openoffice-writer: the Order of St Michael
Lore:
Michael Dalton has been remarkable for three things, all his life: His good aim with rifles, his strong devotion to the christian believe and his fascination for fire. Many an hour he sat in the confession booth and told the priest of things he couldn't resist burning.
Though the latter two of his passions probably were the stronger ones, it was the former that should decide his way in live. After a fire had killed his parents, he made a living as a bounty hunter, and once he had made a name for himself as an excellent marksman, he found his way to the AHA. His strong believe made him fearless in fighting outerworldly horrors that would have driven other men into madness.
In the beginning of the Louvent he had been seen hunting alongside nobody else then the notorious Reverrend Ishim Grid.
The more horrors Dalton witnessed in the bayou though, the more extreme became his methods and ideas. His hatred for the use of "devilish magic" by other hunters, like the voodoo-inspired group of Doctor John, and his despise for "heathen believes", like those of the Night of the Hunter, made him get into conflict with other hunters quite often - even before tensions escalated with the death of Huff-Jones.
With time nobody of the coldblooded and seasoned hunters of the AHA was willing to hunt with the paranoid madman anymore.
But there were others.
The plague, that had unpopulated the area of Lawson Delta and Stillwater Bayou, had not only killed and turned, but also driven many people out of their homes. Those homeless and deeply disturbed people, that had witnessed unearthly horrors they had never dreamed of in their former lifes, were a problem to the AHA: A few people telling stories of living dead out in the bayou would be ignored, but large groups of people that all tell the same story? One option would have been to kill them, but the AHA had another, even larger problem then witnesses: They were loosing ground. Everyday the invisble tentacles of the bayou's dark heart grew larger. Grunts were getting closer to populated areas. More and more experienced hunters stayed in the field, most killed by their brothers, others pulled underwater and devoured by the never shrinking, never resting, never tiring army of the dead. So the AHA (or what was left of the organisation) decided to take those people in. Made them into hunters to strengthen their ranks.
Yet those people were no born fighters, no scientists or killers. They were simple people, that lived a simple but honest and faithfull life in the bayou - before it had turned into a living nightmare. They didnt feel well amongst the nihilistic cutthroats that made up the ranks of the AHA. The magic rituals of the mystic groups scared them, since they couldnt distinguish them from the dark forces, that had unleashed hell on their homes (if there ever was a difference to begin with). Black or Scognamiglio could have been speaking to them in a foreign language, since few of Lawson Delta's orphans could even write or read – much less understand their scientific (and lacking) explanations on something, that could not be understood.
Mostly they tried to stick together, scared to be send back into the moist and musty hell they barely escaped.
Until Dalton found them.
He spoke to them in simple words - but it were strong words. Words they understood and that moved them. Words of revenge, words of reclaiming their home. Words of a way, to purify what was lost. To not just reclaim it, but make it even better then it was before. More pure, mor holy. He told them not to hunt alongside those practicers of the dark arts, to understand the twisted ways of the devil. What does it matter if the evil was called a "Loa", a "Djinn" or a "Sculptor"? Trying to understand the devil was the first step towards being seduced by him! Evil was evil and had to be destroyed. And what better way to destroy it, then with fire? Dont you burn out a festering wound? Dont you burn the wood that was infested by woodworms? And it was them, who would bring the cleaning, the healing, the purging. For they were chosen! Yes they were! Why else did they, honest and faithful people, had to suffer - if not as a trial, as a purging that burned away all the weakness within them. Their suffering had not been in vain. The lord was on their side and would guide them. Father Dalton said so himself. The lord had sent nobody else then his Archangel Michael, to bring father Dalton the message: They should become St Michael's new sword of fire. They would burn the witches, burn the demons, burn the abominitions – only what was good in the eyes of the lord would be able to resist the fire they would bring. And when their land was cleansed, those of them who were still alive would resettle it, come home as the chosen - while those who died as martyrs would be brought straight to heaven by the Archangel himself. To burn eternaly in the love of god!
And thus, the order of St Michael was born...
junior pecan
The last paragraph was spectacular, and brings me aboard a different train of thought: I believe the religious fanatics aspect should be downplayed as a criticism rather than a core feature. Make it more focused on native citizens disappointed with the lack of progress of the AHA, and are now taking matters into their own hands and approaching the issue directly by trying to remove the AI from the picture entirely. Keep the out of touch theistic furor as an undertone, but claim the burning to be backed by evidence of declining grunt numbers.
I could do a rewrite of said idea if you dont feel like it.
jagged tide
Sure, would be glad to read what you think.
agile vine
I'm trying to wrap my head around the lore currently
And what I'm kinda understanding is the monsters are the result of a plague/black magic rituals from some sort of evil entity, and the Hunters are part of a secret society trying to stop it spreading, but they also kill eachother for reasons
junior pecan
Pretty good for a beginner. The colloquial term for the evil entity is sculptor, he is part of a number of alien beings/demigods that we refer to as Loa
The interactions between Loa and humanity through inter dimensional interaction are the source of most religious beliefs
Hunters kill eachother because theyre greedy shits and what started out as friendly competition was corrupted by people hunting eachother for sport.
You can think of Loa as somewhere around halfway between cthulu and a regular person.
We’re not sure what the Loa are, mirror theory is the only current theory, but there might be some room for a Tulpa theory
tawny rock
One of my friends, Arpy, said that there are SOME friendly beings that come from the Loa, or something close to that effect. is that true?
junior pecan
@jagged tide To the good people of Louisiana chased off by this mess I’ve got something important to say, these happenings down in the Bayou have gone on long enough! These hellspawn have left us homeless, this so called organization, the AHA, have all but abandoned us, and many of our loved ones have left for the kingdom of the lord, their bodies stolen and twisted by beasts that wish to take our lives as well.
I’ve about had it with the mysticism, mystery and lies the AHA has fed us folk. They've brought us no help to speak of! And now, their splintered groups fight amongst themselves, warring over a prize that haunts our houses, and cultivating beasts that roam our homes, demolish our churches, and desecrate our family’s graves.
This was our fight from the start, and we won’t be saved by murderers, backstabbers, thieves and outlaws. The lord’s testing us now, and we’ve put off his tribulations for too long already. Now is the time for action, we’ve all seen how to kill these things, how to keep them from coming back again. Fire will wipe this sickness from the land, and bring back the sanctity of the earth. In the good book, Michael cast the devil down to earth with a flaming sword, and it’s time we sent these demons back the same way.
@tawny rock none of them are really hostile if mirror theory holds true. We’re too apart in physicality and space to interact like that
Good god im struggling to type today
tawny rock
Huh, ok. A few weeks ago, I spoke to him about an Artificial legendary hunter idea, basically imagine a hunter body made up of what the Phantom's prosthetic is made of, but it's now possessed by a helpful spirit, which gives it a blue glow, not unlike that of the fire torn or black hand. He said that possible, so i suggested it. it got mixed reactions.
junior pecan
We’ve heard tales of Loa possessing inanimate objects, so it should be possible. As to why it would help in that manner im not sure is justifiable. Nobody is friendly for no reason
Definitely a cool idea though
tawny rock
I always though that it would help due to being an outcast compared to the rest of them. It didn't want to really do anything to us, like what the sculptor does, if it's even evil by default, so it decided to rebel. Kinda like a Luicfer to god thing.
junior pecan
The probable reason sculptor comes across as evil is because he doesnt consider or recognize us as “alive”. Kinda like how no one cares about the life of a fly but not quite. Loa might be able to possess more than one body so their concept of death is probably wildly different than ours, they dont see the death of our bodies as permanent.
jagged tide
One of my friends, Arpy, said that there are SOME friendly beings that come from the Loa, or something close to that effect. is that true?
@tawny rock Check out the "bad as they seem" storyline, its pinned to this channel. It mentions at least 3 beings from the realm of the "loa" that oppose the Sculptor (Lynch, the snake, the lord of the dead). One of them (the snake) actively helped (or tried to help) several people during the Louvent (the twins, prbly Chambers, mby Hardin, tried in Vain to help Huff-Jones & Nellie Crown, etc).
jagged tide
@junior pecan Thx. Only took a quick-view, gotta go to work now and will check it out in more depth later. 🙂
snow dome
Has it been confirmed that grunts turn into hives or is it for now just a theory
junior pecan
@snow dome disproven
snow dome
how was it disproven it states there is larvae in the hearts of grunts
in the monstrum
ancient shadow
I believe the lore from the hive is it was someone’s mother. She had to flee the family home with her sisters. She then became a hunter and now has to kill her over and over again as the sculptor keeps using the same “skin”. Think that’s the gist of what I read in the monstrum.
snow dome
ah okay thank you
echo fjord
our dark sight power come from ?
junior pecan
What do you mean by come from. How does it work? Or where and when do hunters acquire it? Or when was it created
jagged tide
@junior pecan I like it, could be an introduction text to the faction or the event.
echo fjord
or its just a tracking skill looking surnatural?
jagged tide
It is smthg supernatural
and the hunters pay a heavy toll for this ability
but we know little more
its probably some kind of ritual, or a an elixir. Its not been revealed in detail yet
jagged tide
not sure, but it has been hinted by the devs, that using the dark-sight comes with a "price"
It has something to do with some of the T3-hunters seeming to degenerate
echo fjord
oh
jagged tide
like their skin getting sick and stuff like that
echo fjord
yeah they look exhausted
jagged tide
Iirc u find some clues about that in the QNA
Afaik they said they want to reveal the details about that, but not yet
It might as well have something to do with the background of Quickplay: most hunters believe that they are going to hell.
and not just for their deeds in the Bayou...
@snow dome As usuall: We know too little about the lore to give you a satisfying answer on that (if there even is one). We know the origin of the FIRST hive (book of monsters hive-entries), but apart from that, we know little where the hives come from. Are they all copies of Ada's mom? Then why are there at least 2 hive-skins in the game? Did the first hive get created by the sculptor, and the rest are just copies? Or was the first hive created by someone/something else and the sculptor is only copying it? What is the "material", the sculptor is making new hives from? Out of thin air? Out of hunters? Does the Butcher gather material for him? Or is the flesh of some grunts brought into a new form, like you suggested? The answer is: maybe.Your idea didnt occur to me yet, since maggots & larvae seem to exist in several of the sculptors creatures (Black and Scognamiglio found some in the plates of an armored). So I thought the sculptor is some kind of hive mind, and the maggots are the "strings" he pupeteers the monsters in the bayou with. But maybe you are correct, and the Grunts are the "basic" form of his servants and evolve into more specialized roles over time. the answer is, once again: a big "maybe".
snow dome
@jagged tide thank you for the answer (or as best you could give it to me) the reason I want to get into the lore so bad is because it is one of those things where we know nothing and I think that is a nice way to present lore. Although your answer seems the most realistic with the parasites being a form of mind control seeing as almost all creatures including all of the targets are bugs or bug related except the immolation whom would most likely kill the bug. I’m assuming that most immolators aren’t reverend exactly but the same priests with faith so strong that they combust probably leading to multiple rogue priest who follow in his footsteps. Once again thank you for answering my question and beyond.
junior pecan
Dark sight is GAINED from an inoculation of Loa blood and the blood of hunters who have had said inoculation. Dark sight FUNCTIONS likely by identifying other spirits (including the souls of other inoculated hunters) on the other side of the rift in the Loa dimension, and using their distance as a reference in the real world. Dark sight probably ORIGINATES from a phrase thats been thrown around once or twice in the lore, the Faustian Revolution. Just as the industrial revolution changed the whole world, the Faustian Revolution provided a method for Humans to interact with the loa realm
But obviously having part of your soul exposed to the wildlife of the Loa realm is going to be unhealthy, so some people who take the inoculation die right off the bat, and those who survive are eventually exposed to greater and more dangerous spiritual predators
cinder latch
I love coming here and reading some of the cool shit you guys dig up from the lore, or what there is of it. There's a lot of interesting bits of info that I never heard of that I gather just over a few minutes of perusing this thread.
I really hope they drop some lore when they drop the 4th boss.
junior pecan
Yeah me too, but the fact that the devs seem so disinterested in explaining or expanding the incredible lore we’ve dug up makes me think that we managed to make up lore that the devs hadnt even thought of. If you had a story about interdimensional ghost aliens would you spend two years making a bunch of loosely correlated documents only talking about the human aspect?
Maybe theyre trying to leave the advanced stuff out of the text, but it seems more likely that we just came up with stuff that they left unexplained
jagged tide
Dudes, remember when I said, I think they do subtle changes to the maps, increasing the infestation & corruption of the bayou? Maybe I am getting paranoid (since you rarely remember how places look, when there ISNT anything noticeable)... but can anybody tell me, if there had always been that much chitin at the tower close to the starting position of C&A-Lumber?
languid prism
That's always been there
junior pecan
Its always been there but they updated the models some time ago
jagged tide
ok
rotund ferry
Creeping corruption would be a cool update saga/possibly mechanic though
amber harbor
i remember there being more
rotund ferry
Strange
polar fable
Well you can clearly see a snake in the second picture, maybe that was their intention
junior pecan
Vitam impendere vero
tawny rock
Where is that in the game?
junior pecan
Woods northeast of cyprus huts
molten forge
@jagged tide Those pulsating eggs/puss sacks, I've seen those in some of the spider's lairs before.
I think it was when Spider was in Arden
jagged tide
They are always at some places in Arden, as well in healing-waters church and some other compounds... even if no boss is present. But imho their number seems to increase (cant proove it so, just my impression).
Btw: anybody got an idea what this might be? (found it in the church of blanchett graves, close to the altar)
devout cedar
Uhh isnt it something from Butcher? He drops some stuff when he loses HP
I never noticed it there so idk 
jagged tide
No, I found it on one of my research-runs (my loadoat for those is always bomblance + silent-nagant, thats how I can tell), and since I avoid fighting at those I certainly didnt enter the butchers lair.
I'll check it again later, mby I get a better screenshot then
junior pecan
Thats been there forever, never knew what it was
jagged tide
looks like some kind of talisman, like a dreamcatcher or the blair-witch stuff.
rotund ferry
Anyone have any extra info/personal theories regarding the baptismal blood avtomat skin, seems to give a bit of insight into the night acolytes cult
random lava
those talismans are all over the map
jagged tide
rly? Can you tell me a few more places were you can find those? I only noticed this one so far. And those on one picture.
slate grotto
It's an unfindable place, they are nowhere like this :
junior pecan
Arden parish entrance is similar to that image, but much smaller
clear charm
3rd map easter eggs o:
amber harbor
That last one could be prison
slate grotto
The one i have post, when you see in big screen is a sort of saloon or a batiment with a big entrance room.
royal laurel
does anyone know who the widow is? Reading some old lore on the website and it mentions her in a few entries. Also something about a curse.
jagged tide
Not sure what you are referring to... There is the "black-widow"-weapon skin, which is Lynch's and there is "Augusta", the widow of Philipp H. Jones.
Can you post a link or quote, what lore you are referring to?
amber harbor
the Blanchett widow is the one who owns the church
jagged tide
😮 So it might be an easter-egg pointing towards dark souls? Thats actually kinda nice.
rotund ferry
i mean, it wouldnt be far fetched to think of zombies as hollows right?
jagged tide
@royal laurel Ah! Your right, I remember now. Its the widow Blanchett (from the Blanchett graves). There was some more lore on her, but not much. I cant remember the detail. Maybe in the enries on the Blanchett graves.
I remember, that the Blanchett-church was flooded and people died (also rumors of cannibalism iirc). Didnt sound that special, but imho it was the oldest case mentioned in the lore. Maybe we should do a timeline for the Bayou...
jagged tide
Ok, I did an improvised Timeline for the Louvent. Ofc many things are missing, since most events mentioned in the lore are undated. But its a start to look at things in the correct sequence. Feel free to comment and/or correct.
jagged tide
@slim hatch Where/how are we supposed to place our questions for the next QnA?
slim hatch
I don't know if there will be a next QnA
If i recall last one was a complete disaster and they stopped doing them
The one they did Live or on Reddit?
Nothing got documented really
So if they announce a new QnA just create a new G-Doc
Supply it in #lore-discussion-hardcore for a pin
And should be solid
jagged tide
kk, ty 🙂
sinful trout
@jagged tide i talked to one of the devs. and they confirmed the stick thing was not lore related
@slim hatch youre alive, how was your sleep
slim hatch
Honestly? Since we signed contract for EU Consortium work has been too much for me in all honesty
sinful trout
mm, the change of pace and inactivity made me take a break
sinful trout
why,how and when they acquired this surnatural power
@echo fjord
sorry was your question answered?
sinful trout
So the hunters all aquire darksight when theyre initiated through a quick incantation and flick of their wrists. we know initiation involves something called the serum which is some extract that involves demon blood, usually sold to the aha by Lynch.
we also know initiation can be done from the comfort of your own home
see hannah kinney
serum is from meathead entries
and i believe demon extraction is from pax
junior pecan
Im probably gonna write a dissertation explaining the likely function and mechanism of the serum, but ive got to clear up some time for it. Might be a few weeks
rotund ferry
It still interests me that the serum sterilizes the user, It would be intriguing to see more of these trade offs in terms of Hunt magic in the future
sinful trout
most hunt magic is faustian in nature
echo fjord
oh ok ty
junior pecan
Once again pointing towards mirror theory, it would be bizarre if that was not the intention, an incredible circumstance.
jagged tide
@sinful trout Can you explain what "faustian" means? I read the book from Goethe, but still dont know what thats supposed to mean... like, a deal with a demon? Or alchemy? Btw: Didnt know the serum came from Lynch... can you give me your source for this info? Does this mean, after Lynch left this world, the AHA has no more way to initiate new hunters?
thx for the info on the stick-thingy btw 🙂
jagged tide
Ah! Ok, found it. You were right. Second pax entry.
junior pecan
Faustian in this use just means tradeoffs and supernatural bargaining.
jagged tide
Ok, thx
bleak widget
Man i love the lore in this channel but there’s a lot
sinful trout
Sorry i eas busy earlier. Yes it seems like youve found your answers though
thx for the info on the stick-thingy btw 🙂
@jagged tide
Im missing something
Oh right. Yeah it was pretty disapointing when i asked last year
jagged tide
Patch 1.4 has hit the servers, so its time for a small community-event! Thx@junior pecan for input and the introduction.
"To the good people of Louisiana chased off by this mess I’ve got something important to say, these happenings down in the Bayou have gone on long enough! These hellspawn have left us homeless, this so called organization, the AHA, have all but abandoned us, and many of our loved ones have left for the kingdom of the lord, their bodies stolen and twisted by beasts that wish to take our lives as well. I’ve about had it with the mysticism, mystery and lies the AHA has fed us folk. They've brought us no help to speak of! And now, their splintered groups fight amongst themselves, warring over a prize that haunts our houses, and cultivating beasts that roam our homes, demolish our churches, and desecrate our family’s graves. This was our fight from the start, and we won’t be saved by murderers, backstabbers, thieves and outlaws. The lord’s testing us now, and we’ve put off his tribulations for too long already. Now is the time for action, we’ve all seen how to kill these things, how to keep them from coming back again. Fire will wipe this sickness from the land, and bring back the sanctity of the earth. In the good book, Michael cast the devil down to earth with a flaming sword, and it’s time we sent these demons back the same way." - Michael Dalton
Welcome Hunters to the "Order of St Michael"- community event
The idea behind this decentral organized event is simpel: People roleplay as if they were members of a fictional faction of the American-Hunters-Association – the Order of St Michael. The plan is, that during the event a notable number of teams will emerge, that can easily be recognized as members of the faction. People can recognize members of the Order of St Michael on three things: 1) Similar loadouts & skins. 2) Unusual behaviour that dosent fit in the way most people play the game. 3) Roleplaying through the ingame VOIP.
Everything you need to know to participate in the event is written below.
jagged tide
discussions about the event prbly best in the steam-forum: https://steamcommunity.com/app/594650/discussions/8/2292842508246099399/?fbclid=IwAR1NWC2fSp4FqG7U1dpMgk7lLBL6lhjEOtgc0SZ16qvteroCTe1Q3Z7jmtQ
chilly saffron
kinda sad more lore was added to the redneck. there was beauty in it's simplicity
rotund ferry
Kinda makes you wonder how the infection affects people if his intelligence or lack thereof could have stalled the spread
jagged tide
yeah, but the new text reveals more about the Bayou & the Louvent. I am happy about every piece of lore added to the game.
jagged tide
The "Order of St Michael"-event is supposed to star tomorrow, so any last minute suggestions?
visual finch
Where's the new Redneck lore?
polar fable
@jagged tide what’s the new text, sorry?
jagged tide
@polar fable They changed the text on the redneck-skin. Before it was just one sentence.
Before it was just "William Moses, proud proprietor of Moses Poultry, is anything but chicken." now it states that he was found holed in with lots of weapons&ammunition and nobody ever resisted the sculptor's influence as long as he did.
polar fable
@jagged tide ahhh okay I missed it, thanks a lot!
visual finch
Oh nice
polar fable
I also believe that they changed it because of this new Trails mode that is sometimes hinted at during the loading screens, it says something like learn how legendary hunters became who they are, so I guess we might get a chance to try and survive as a redneck
rotund ferry
I try to survive as a red neck literally every day if my life smh
amber harbor
@polar fable could you post a quote? i havent heard of such a thing
polar fable
@amber harbor there you go
amber harbor
oh cool! didnt know about that, im usually alt-tabbed during loading. Sick leak or purposefully misleading?
rotund ferry
I’m guessing trails mode may be a series of flashbacks possibly?
steep hollow
It’s probably the PvE mode mentioned on the website
chilly saffron
I'm excited to find out exactly how it works. I think it'll be either mini ai gunfights, or kind of like the training ground where it's a small version of the map and you just need to kbe
jagged tide
Okay. The Order of St Michael event is supposed to start now. Lets see how it works out 🙂 https://steamcommunity.com/app/594650/discussions/8/2292842508246099399/
primal goblet
So my understanding is that I should not shoot the people that are doing this?
jagged tide
If u participate as well, no. Try to work together. But accidents happen ^^
primal goblet
I’m not participating, but I’ll try to let them have their fun.
primal goblet
Oh good. Time for some good ol' fashioned murder
jagged tide
Thats what we are all here for ^^
fleet epoch
How'd everything go today?
(not participating, but very interested to see how this shakes out)
jagged tide
@fleet epoch Well, I have yet to ingame meet another group participating ... 😦
guess that means its not working at all. But its still too early to make a fazit.
slate grotto
I saw an squad of Redempter i cry : "i'm from the Ordrer of saint Michael" and they burning me and shooting me to death !
quaint estuary
Don’t give up this is a really cool idea!
quaint estuary
I think player factions would be a cool idea, kinda like player run covenants in Dark Souls
jagged tide
@slate grotto Well, not what was planned, but a step into the right direction 😄
@quaint estuary Thx 🙂
jagged tide
@junior pecan I think you are spot on concerning the creation of the dark sight - 100% agree, nothing more to be said. Your theory concerning the mechanics behind it includes mythical & scientific ideas and explains the game-mechanics - amazing! A very good and convincing explanation. Still, I think there is alot of speculation from your side involved, so it could be intended totally different by the devs. The last part, about the geographical "mirroring" of the loas world to the human world... I kinda disagree on that one. It might be like that, but the reason for the sculptor to only act in Louisiana might simply be, that only at this place in the human world the distance between the two realms is smaller then at other places - that wouldnt require the sculptor's world to be similar or mirroring to ours... it wouldnt even require something like "geography" & "distance" at all! It's enough that this kind of difference exists in the human world (not sure if I explained my point good here... but my english is quite limited). Still: You might be right - I just see the clues pointing into that direction as rather weak.
Rly nice piece of work you ve done there. I like it.
zealous blade
I’m new to hunt which means I’m new to hunt lore, but I’ve been looking at some of it. Is the virus, and all these creatures like, supposed to be the wrath of god or something?
junior pecan
It’s alternate dimension entities, the main one right now is referred to as Sculptor. We don’t know what they are but we’ve been interacting with them for a long time, and they’re the basis of most religion.
rotund ferry
is there lore behind the hour time limit
amber harbor
@rotund ferry its the time that hunters can resist the sculptors influence
anything more will turn them into grunts presumably
jagged tide
I thought the Hunters are imune? Imho its just the time a person can survive in the Bayou (even so Glanton seems to live there), and they just put a number on it for gameplay reasons...
amber harbor
yes, but they did have an explanaition for it
rotund ferry
Hmm, that's quite interesting if it is true.
amber harbor
at first you were considered lost
then it became the resistance thing
hunters are resistant to the sculptor due to the demon blood inoculation
they arent immune per say, just extra resistant
some people did develop/ were immune from the start, hence the more 'human' bodies on the maps, crying
but i dont recall if that was retconned or not
there was a bloodline related immunity theory, but that got destroyed with new lore
amber harbor
they go crazy
jagged tide
I found it in QnA (pinned to this thread): Q: Any explanation why Hunters instantly die with no explanation when the contract timer expires? I understand this is gameplay-issue but any lore reason behind this?
A: Abstraction - when you're lost in the bayou, you're good as dead
rotund ferry
From the lore it sounds like hunters spend hours if not days in the dead zone, I mean to the point of being hungry enough to eat rotten flesh
amber harbor
they do make an effort to enforce the 1 hour time limit tho
like the armored entry with black and his team hauling ass after 45 minutes
but i think i just misremembered some theory for actual lore
rotund ferry
Huh then there’s the redneck who was spending days among the infected
junior pecan
Bosses hide in lairs because they know the hunters are coming. So when the hunt is officially over things probably turn ugly
zealous blade
So the hunters fight each other due to influence from the sculptor right?
junior pecan
No. Hunters kill eachother out of greed. They arent affected by the influence due to the initiation ritual, though long term exposure should draw sculptors ire and that immunity would be circumnavigated.
jagged tide
@zealous blade The devs always say it: There is absolutly no need in the game to kill each other. The Hunters could as well hunt together. People just decide to play PvP.
zealous blade
Man. Sounds like real life.
wise sluice
Hey, folks. Long time player, first time commenter. I'm hoping I can help out with the lore hunting in this game but I don't want to reiterate points that have been made. So I was wondering if there was a doc or file that is being updated with the current theories and if someone can tell me the difference between this channel and the "hardcore" one. Thanks, looking forward to participating.
junior pecan
Hardcore is this channel but deader
And lore hunting isnt an occupation sadly. Theory crafting would be useful though.
We’ve got a lot of unexplained phenomena in need of explanation
If you check the pinned tab of this channel youll see ammasments of referential documents, but theres only two documents pertaining to theory
As far as im aware
And if you’re going to write theories (again, please feel free to do so, we’re lacking) publish them here and we’ll debate it. If it holds up as plausible i can document it for you.
@wise sluice if you want the aforementioned documents on theory just ask me, but until youre familiar with the lore you probably won’t want em.
rotund ferry
I have been pondering a theory regarding traits for some time
I think there’s ample evidence to consider some of the more eldritch traits as being mutations caused by the serum
junior pecan
Mutations seems, coincedental
Does it cohere to Inoculum theory?
Or is it separate
rotund ferry
Traits such as ghoul and serpent, as well as maybe mithridist could be caused by different variations of the serum, while traits like fanning and quartermaster are simply skill developments
Enlighten me on the inuculm theory
junior pecan
Hang on
wise sluice
@junior pecan Hey, thanks for the welcome. Yeah, I've been trying to unlock all the documents in the library and I've been trying to build evidence towards an idea I have been working on. I've started just playing as the researcher and ingnoring most of the rest of the game, lol. But I would love the documents so I can catch up on the latest theories
rotund ferry
These traits could also be mutations or partial corruption from past experiences in the infected zone as well though
wise sluice
Is there any creedence to the idea that the Hunters in this game can be described as similar to the Grey Wardens of Dragon Age? By this I mean, do we know of any evidence that the Hunters digest any parts from the infected (be it the grunts or otherwise)?
amber harbor
@wise sluice in order to become a hunter you need to stab yourself with a demon blood syringe
junior pecan
@wise sluice real close but probably for none of the same reasons. See the above document on that topic. The other document will be below this.
wise sluice
So after reading these two documents, I'm just wondering what exactly are the bounties that hunters bring back? Are these physical things (like the tokens mentioned) or the essences of the creatures? That is the only vague thing I can think of in that reading.
If it is an essence thing than how do they trade the bounties in?
You could say it's just evidence of the kill but it doesn't explain the connection to the dark sight and how any hunter can pick it up
junior pecan
It probably has mass
We think at least
Devs have said it is a “part of the original soul”
It’s probably an organ, artificial or otherwise.
The important part is its a communicator, so it probably unlocks a whole different branch of potential rituals it can be used in
I mean, when a hunter gets shot off a ledge the bounty falls with him,
So probably not an essence unless its been duct taped to the hunters present soul
As opposed to his distant, which its technically also connected too, ive got no clue
No idea, we’ve no evidence of it
rotund ferry
@junior pecan yes my trait idea seems to fit closely with either bounty/exposure mutations or abilities given through the serum
junior pecan
Probably both, but it HAS to be spiritual to some degree
rotund ferry
^
junior pecan
@rotund ferry go ahead and write it down in a document somewhere then post the whole thing here
rotund ferry
I will sometime this week
junior pecan
Ill be here
@wise sluice if two objects are intertwined between two different realities can you truly say they are the same object?
We don’t know if there even IS an object on the other side,
I am however very confident that Inoculum theory is correct, and it is a communicator
Makes too much sense to be wrong
rotund ferry
I agree
wise sluice
I believe in the inoculum theory as well but I find it odd that we don't have a solid image of the bounty itself.
The soul or spirit of the bounty is banished and much of it's form
What's left is an image similar to clues/rifts
junior pecan
Banished sure, but hunters are technically on the other end as well
wise sluice
Is it possible that this energy is transferred into the blood of the hunter?
junior pecan
No, transfer from hunter to hunter wouldnt be instant
The distant soul could grab it though
Though, its still casting a signal so it must be on earth in part post banish
Its concentrated spiritual energy, but whether that concentration has mass is anyones guess
wise sluice
I guess that's where I'll try to focus my theories/research.
junior pecan
Study the remains post banish, and boss decompisition
Remains will be more important though
Oh and get a recording of it at close range in dark soght
See if you spot anything
wise sluice
Seems like a good idea
junior pecan
I dont think anyone has tried that yet
wise sluice
Someone should find documents in the entries to see if they're is any reference of the transaction between the monster and hunter and between hunter and AHA.
There*
junior pecan
Which transaction
The lore is mostly about faustian stuff
Ergo, mostly transactions
wise sluice
Haha, fair enough. I don't know, I'll do some more digging.
sinful trout
its worth noting the bounty actually glows in darksight. flashing glow as well. weather on downed hunters or the bosses remains
@wise sluice
ive searched thoroughly. to my knowledge theres a few round objects within the ash, albeit barely visible but i doubt its the object,
soulstone theory.
this theory is based off 3 facts.
hunters can pick up a bounty off downed hunters and off boss remains instantly.
The bounty Glows in the shade (darksight)
Hunters gain a boost in power when being the "Carrier"
This theory revolves around the bosses soul being stored in a stone like substance. much like a kidney stone, inside it would contain part of the bosses soul, which eminates such extreme power, that hunters can see in darksight what bosses can see (hunters through walls. thats why the boss can always find you in its lair.)
This stone being a part of the bosses soul that actually cant leave this realm, and since it eminates extreme power, the AHA want it for testing/weapon creation.
this theory gained further traction on one of the qnas
Q. What are we actually picking up from the bosses? We get it’s a token but what actually is it?
A: It’s a unique part of their body containing part of their soul.
of course, this begs the further question, first asked by @wintry panther
Is this part of the Sculptor that we take? Is this why he is weakening over time
@rotund ferry The lore hardcore chat got demolished because anyone can get in and ask basic questions we already have the answer to, thus nullifyiong its purpose. we now use it as an additional pin board
junior pecan
@sinful trout ive got two problems.
- Why would bosses need to see hunters, theyre only slightly more capable than other agents, and hunter movement should be predictable by following the deaths of lesser agents (grunts hives etc).
Whats to stop the stone from leaving with the banishment? We’ve seen mass exported, and Lynch’s presence leads me to believe soul can go through as well.
sinful trout
mm, but the very fact that the stone stays behind is evidence it can no longer pass through, weather that be by an action during the banishmant ritual by the hunter or just the very laws of the stone
junior pecan
Not if its designed to be on both sides
Then it wont follow through with banish, if the design is competent
sinful trout
as for number 1. the bosses still aim to wreak havoc, as bosses like the assasins main goal is just that. to kill hunters. the spiders: to stop corruption and the butchers to be cultivating souls (theory)
additionally the boss still wants to complete its mission, dispatching hunters would hinder that progress
youre further proving the point
the stone stays behind
its not sucked through like the rest of the boss
additionally
it only contains "part" of the soul
not all
junior pecan
My point is if its a source of power why would it be deliberately left behind, if hunters cut it out prior to banishment it would make more sense
sinful trout
further pointing to the possability that the bosses arent even aware that the stone forms
mm, then hunters could cut it out. like "an action during the banishment ritual by the hunter"
junior pecan
Not if it follows salt circle principles
Rituals cant be interrupted without caution
junior pecan
Ok, imagine the archetype for a ritual
Imagine most any ritual
If you reached into the focus of the ritual and screwed around with it, it wouldnt work
sinful trout
youre refferring to "a demon cant leave a circle of salt?"
sinful trout
whos to say the organ isnt a focus for the ritual?
junior pecan
If reaching in is a design of the ritual, it would probably be logistically simpler and more advantageous to just surgically remove it first
sinful trout
hunters could :
A. cut it out before the ritual.
B: isolate it by other means
C: ignore it and its left behind
D: the boss has some sentience and leaves it behind
junior pecan
Im saying B in a spiritual sense is more costly than A
junior pecan
Surgical removal of a precise organ without regard for the body is easy
Spiritual banishment, and a method by which to discern the target of the banishment from the bounty is not
Or shouldnt be at least
sinful trout
so whos to say the boss has o knowledge of the stone
much like kidney stones
small enough most of us have them but not large enough to notice
junior pecan
What? Are we talking about the same thing?
sinful trout
the bosses organ being the soul stone
soulstone theory.
this theory is based off 3 facts.
hunters can pick up a bounty off downed hunters and off boss remains instantly.
The bounty Glows in the shade (darksight)
Hunters gain a boost in power when being the "Carrier"
This theory revolves around the bosses soul being stored in a stone like substance. much like a kidney stone, inside it would contain part of the bosses soul, which eminates such extreme power, that hunters can see in darksight what bosses can see (hunters through walls. thats why the boss can always find you in its lair.)
This stone being a part of the bosses soul that actually cant leave this realm, and since it eminates extreme power, the AHA want it for testing/weapon creation.
Var'uun, theory king &Lore daddyToday at 10:48 PM
this theory gained further traction on one of the qnas
Q. What are we actually picking up from the bosses? We get it’s a token but what actually is it?
A: It’s a unique part of their body containing part of their soul.
sinful trout
its not based on any sort of belief
this theory is based off 3 facts.
hunters can pick up a bounty off downed hunters and off boss remains instantly.
The bounty Glows in the shade (darksight)
Hunters gain a boost in power when being the "Carrier"
you must be refferring to this
This stone being a part of the bosses soul that actually cant leave this realm, and since it eminates extreme power, the AHA want it for testing/weapon creation.
you said it yourself. if the stone is known of and it contains power. why would the boss leave it behind?
junior pecan
Im opposed to the explanation, in its entirety, there are tangential points i agree with
sinful trout
if its ultimate goal is to finish its mission, what posesses it to think yeah ill leave this here
junior pecan
Hang on this is confusing as hell
Ok, its not leaving it there, its dead, sculptor revives it in a few hours, sculptor is who i suspect is leaving it there, and its for the purposes outlined in mirror theory. But thats not the focus of this discussion.
junior pecan
You havent read mirror??
sinful trout
is it documented anywhere?
junior pecan
Holy shit dude yes
Hang on
We’ll discuss this when you finish reading
Or when you realize you remembered it with a different name or some such conclusion
sinful trout
where was this documented
junior pecan
It was in my possession i shared it freely including here and on reddit
sinful trout
Sculptor is in it for the bodies.
souls. but yes
junior pecan
Nonono
Read firther
Bodies
Explicitly
We’re in it for the ‘souls’
Same reasoning, just mirrored
It correlates with faust, it correlates with the nature of the bosses, it correlates with the cycle of events
It correlates with mysticism
Fits like a damn puzzle piece
Though more of a cast metal in its creation
Its only theory but its the only one we have to explain sculptors actions. If he’s after spiritual energy he shouldve called it quits by now
Losing too many forces, cant be cheap to replace 800 grunts a day
wise sluice
But does he need to replace them?
junior pecan
Yeah, too few
wise sluice
The lore suggests the Assassin is the same guy, everytime
The same person who was converted.
junior pecan
Yeah but you think he just gets banished to hell and hitchhikes back?
Sending him back or recreating him is expensive
No way its cheap
junior pecan
Hell is a factory floor
sinful trout
its not christian hell, nor literal hell. just another dimension that has the same aspects of such
junior pecan
Thats why theres so much burning and bodies
sinful trout
immaterial
The bounty is physical rather than spiritual we know now.
not sure i agree with this theory.
reasons.
Paxton calls meatheads "soul farmers" as such theyre farming souls, rather than corpses. additionally. the sculptors power corrupts individuals and turns them into what we call Grunts. if the sculptor was after bodies. it could simply take civillians instead.
Weve been told through the lore entries what each bosses motives are. such as: stoping corrupted pieces of the power. or killing other hunters. as such. the sculptor wouldnt simply put these lines of defense at play, alowing them to be massacred by hunters.
The fact that he hasnt just used grunts instead of hunters is a big part of this. as if hes thirsting for souls like the appropriate theory. it makes much more sense as these grunts now wander aimlessly as if they have no soul. as the "infection" is just the sculptors power that mirrors effects like a plague.
junior pecan
Theyve got a soul, they can recover
sinful trout
its much more likely the bosses are there to cultivate and farm. obviously but you said it yourself
Yeah but you think he just gets banished to hell and hitchhikes back?
Sending him back or recreating him is expensive
No way its cheap
in this sense, makes more sense to come through. take all civillians, farm and whatnot, pack up and leave. go do it again somewehre else
hunters still have souls. thats still fact
wise sluice
But why are grunts incubating insects within them if they're aimless?
junior pecan
Alright let me digest
@wise sluice method of locomotive control, muscles deteriorate
Or a backup if they start being human again
sinful trout
@wise sluice theyre not willingly doing so. more like husks rather than pregnant women
junior pecan
Wouldnt explain their namesake
Or half of it at least
Theyve gone mad, driven to it through utility of the soul
Thats why sculptor is literally crazy
sinful trout
a low-ranking or unskilled soldier or other worker.
its litterally meat work. dont need a brain to do it
hence the term
junior pecan
The verb
sinful trout
grunt work
junior pecan
I was referring to their primal vocalizations, something unnecessary if theyre literal puppets
Ergo, still animal, just maddened
sinful trout
theres been no mention on how grunts got their name afaik
weather it be by noise or basic work
sinful trout
so the line of inquiry is essentially useless.
they also wail and scream
theyre not called wailers though
growl
cough
whatnot
wise sluice
But they've also been re-engineered, so why they make the noise they do is not really relevant
junior pecan
My point is if theyre making vocalization theyre still baseline human.
sinful trout
not exactly true
wise sluice
In the entries for the grunt they talk about their heart not even being recognizable, more a pulsating sphere
The organs have been repurposed
sinful trout
noise is just flexing of a muscle whie exhaling air
junior pecan
And its deliberate
sinful trout
gruntsw could flex because their neurons fry and therefore exhale causing a grunt
junior pecan
If it were for alerting other grunts itd be made to be louder
Its clearly animal
Just like the wailing
sinful trout
additionally they could get a moth down their breathing hole and cause them to cough
next time you cough. make it silent
junior pecan
Wouldnt have the reflexes to cough
sinful trout
their pain receptors are still activew
junior pecan
The brain still functions its just being drive through the utility of the soul
sinful trout
ennnnhhhhhh
junior pecan
As for meatheads, scog could be wrong
junior pecan
Well thats the real wuestion
We’ve got no clue
But id assume it dictates direction of action
If only partly
Ill defined concept
sinful trout
dont confuse the two entries
"Scognamillio, that fool. he refers to them as soul farmers"
"there was an entry in paxtons journal about these things. he called them soul farmers"
the only baseline you would have to go off of for that quesiton to be considered fact is that of insects
its fact insects cant actually feel pain
just discomfort
sinful trout
do you really need a soul to feel pain?
sinful trout
are you sure?
junior pecan
Hell no
sinful trout
are you sure you in fact have a soul
junior pecan
No, i dont realistically believe in the concept
wise sluice
I kind of feel like we're in a loop here. What are the main questions we're trying to answer?
sinful trout
simple question thats been answered many times
junior pecan
?
sinful trout
originally
can the soulstone pass through this world.
3 additional questions
whats the sculptor here for?
if hes here for bodies, why not just eat grunts
if hes here for souls and hes taken all the grunts souls. why can they still feel pain?
- its realistic he wouldnt leave it behind. therefore it either cant go through, or he doesnt know of it
junior pecan
Because the opposition he develops currently provides a steady supply of unter bodies
Ok which of these are we arguing
The latest?
sinful trout
2 i believe souls but we dont know yety and im basing most of my answer off of
Q why is the sculptor here?
A: hunger
junior pecan
Thats the first big source of mirror
sinful trout
- My main hole in the theory
- why cant they
can a soulless creature still feel pain
4 being the latest question
sinful trout
take your time
sinful trout
shoot
junior pecan
What if he wants to leave it behind ala mirror theory
Third option unanticipated
Disregarded prematurely
sinful trout
What if he wants to leave it behind ala mirror theory
@junior pecan
main issue with that is Why is he leaving it behind. if its for bodies like youve mentioned. he has all the grunts, armoreds, hives and immolators to choose from.
junior pecan
Theyre in use gathering more. Reduce the threat and people might get the bright idea to bury hunters outside of the zone
sinful trout
what makes hunters so special? the ritual blood? the blood of the demon? if so why not just entrap it as lynch does? seems easy enough with 800 grunts at your disposal.
junior pecan
Nothing. Just that theyre a constant supply of additional bodies. And the important part:
Theyre the ones doing the banishment
They prime the ritual
Maybe he pays for it, but the setup is free
sinful trout
ill ask again.
what makes the hunters so special? he has 800 grunts at his dispoasl. why not make them do it? additionally. why would he send the soul there. have it cultivate bodies to ebcome (spider meathead or assasin) then have it sent back
junior pecan
Ok theres two questions
sinful trout
what is to gain? the carbon from the bodies? if thats the case have the entire thing automated with grunts
not to mentino vincent corscia is a massive hole here
sinful trout
shoot
junior pecan
Ok first question. Why not make the grunts do it. The banishment or provide biomass?
junior pecan
Banishment: they cant too inarticulate, mutagenic design prevents very accurate control. The biomass? Limited in quality. How many hinters have come through the bayou since this started. More than 800 at least right?
*quantity
Not quality
sinful trout
mechanically yes.
lorically: no
junior pecan
Next question or further analysis
sinful trout
hunter groups are small. not to mention hunters can escape of their own free will.
up2u
junior pecan
Hang on, getting glitches
Hunter groups small. 800\12 = like 67
Only takes ~67 hunts to make it more than worthwhile
Without taking lost biomass from gunshot wounds into account which is, admittedly questionable
I think lore wise a great many come through
sinful trout
problem with that is its likely no more than 10 hunts realistically happened. (im on the side of 8 hunts happened taking in time of day and doubvle bounties) but we know this because the amount of grunts, armoreds, hives and immolators never deplete
junior pecan
Thats because theyre replicated
sinful trout
replicated with what biomass?
junior pecan
when the hunters are killing eachother, theres plenty to go around
Some can be repurposed
As well
sinful trout
not enough for 800 a hunt.
junior pecan
Id say theres enough
sinful trout
each of us in game kill roughly 100 monsters, yeah? therefore 1200 lost per match, vs 12 hunters
sinful trout
960 then
junior pecan
Yeah its a lot
sinful trout
so hes losing biomass by staying open more than one hunt
hell one hunt hes losing IMMENSE biomass
junior pecan
Unless its being repurposed
Which considering the fact that theyre already corpses...
sinful trout
i doubt hes growing a garden /s
junior pecan
Not a garden of course, but a dead thing still serves utility to the living
All living things are comprised of pieces of dead ones. Not saying he digs it out of the ground, but i still feel as if theres enough
Sinners had 100 members
It was one of the barely mentioned factions
The Boer, whatever his name was
He was training dozens a day
Hardin threw a hundred orphans out there with knives
sinful trout
My problem isnt the theory
junior pecan
Ill admit its questionable at best. But there are other anchoring parts of the theory
sinful trout
My problem is the amountt of open holes
junior pecan
An additional yea
sinful trout
You say grunts still have souls so they can be recovered but we cant say that for sure
junior pecan
Salter
sinful trout
How is he recovered
sinful trout
Transformation elongated rather than instantaneous
junior pecan
Hm
sinful trout
It goes both ways
sinful trout
Whos to say he was recovering rather than getting worse
junior pecan
Wait i can check the dates i believe
sinful trout
Mm. We have the timeline
junior pecan
The fact that he WAS a grunt, practically
rotund ferry
@sinful trout Ah I see, so like there's no point in using it for "discussion"
sinful trout
Transformation elongated vs revovery periods
@sinful trout Ah I see, so like there's no point in using it for "discussion"
@rotund ferry
As youve proved yes
No offense
junior pecan
Wait wait wait
Still have souls so they can be recovered
No, biology too altered
Theyre gonners
Affected through the soul and an odd application of other life
sinful trout
Thats worse in your case then
sinful trout
Other points?
sinful trout
Hold
junior pecan
Roger
junior pecan
Was incorrect,
Didnt consider biological aspect
You saw it in my defense earlier and earlier still in the quote
Salter couldve
That i suspect
But you are correct in the assessment that it cant be prove
junior pecan
Summation of that one first
Soul should be able to recover, uncertain. Body can’t clearly
Onto further points
Biomass still stands as a hole
Lest we learn more about the replication process
sinful trout
Meatheads then.
Paxton and scognamillio (who are both researchers who get their hands on actual physical evidence) call them soul farmers
junior pecan
Limited perspective. Mine is superior due to access to further documentation
And lack of contexts
sinful trout
Access to physical evidence and have their own documentation
sinful trout
We only have word of documentation. And weve been told multiple times by devs "people are unreliable"
junior pecan
True, but thats not the big point
sinful trout
Im inclined to believe tamrat and paxton.
It is the big point though
It comes down to whos more reliable
junior pecan
In what regard? How have they informed you, youve been given a name
sinful trout
Hardly. Theyve made their own documentation. And come up with a name based on their findings.
Weve gone off of everyone else including unreliable hunters who stretch the truth
junior pecan
What separates them.
sinful trout
Tamrat and paxton study
And experiment
Notable. Harold does too however
See armored
junior pecan
They do jot experiment spiritually
sinful trout
Harold is reckless
junior pecan
If we deduce it farms souls that cannot be inferred from biology
sinful trout
Agreed. But the reason theyve come up with it means theyve found evidence of such
Note
junior pecan
Thats my point. Without spiritual research they would find no evidence. Its more likely they found no evidence than did spiritual research
Because spiritual research is borderline metaphysics
A near impossibility. Especially with an entity with an underdeveloped soul as a human
sinful trout
Harold found a piece of armored with a vodun lady.
Vodun practices note there are two parts of a person.
The gros bon ange (body)
Ti bon ange( soul)
Take away the ti bon ange and people are described much how grunts act
sinful trout
Afk anyway. Sleep
junior pecan
Hmmm. Utility of grunts wouldnt be possible without changing brain activity. Either Loa-Soul-Brain or Loa-Brain interactions. But Loa-brain would be spiritual energy affecting matter, something that should be impossible, lest the distinction be worthless. So the initial drive to madness, and the prevention of infighting amongst the grunts requires soul to be present, unless the method of their creation is not madness. But if it were not madness, if motor control had been seized entirely then theres the issue of why is the psyche still allowed to persist? (Waling, grunts moans and what not)
Honestly im beginning to suspect this is an issue with voodoo as a whole
The only point of contention in this that i can see is the limitation of Loa only being able to directly interact with souls. Something backed up by the fact that if he were capable of directly interacting with biology he’d make more capable opponents to the hunters.
“I believe I have found documents scognamiglio missed, in his single minded focus on the occult”
This quote demonstrates scog’s focus on spiritual research which, let me specify, is the spiritual equivalent of a plant studying biology. A borderline impossibility due to the fact that plants did not evolve any behavior by which to influence (and in turn study) their environment or selves.
Its an odd analogy but the only way i can think to explain it
“Scognamiglio, that fool He called them Soul Farmers, but I can't see why. He thought they were vampiric essentially, feeding on souls rather than blood. He imagined them walking into towns in the night, harvesting the "souls" of the people. But read just one first hand description of this creature, and you will understand that it could not just walk into a town to quietly harvest the souls of its inhabitants. It had no eyes, no mouth to feed with, and it barely fit through most doors. It is not a subtle creature. Not in any way leaving a trail of leeches in its wake.”
^so scog was wrong about their nature, but perhaps not about their function as a whole. Again, still seems mire likely that he’s wrong twice than correct about something he does not have the faculty to study
Conclusion: More likely that scog is wrong a second time, than right about something he logistically shouldn’t be able to discover.
amber harbor
What if grunts are used as soul storage in our world like a bank? The sculptor takes the ti bon angi or whatever, in order to use it for reinforcing boss souls or for his own devices. This disables the humans and makes them ripe for the picking at any time. The bosses could work as mechanical actors in this: vincent scouts ahead and brings in normal people, the butcher reaps the ti bon angi and leaves them mindless, and the spider takes care of withdrawals, killing parts of the sculptors army to send their souls back.
This would also explain why we can only see 2 bosses at once
No need for new recruits while still processing the living
No need for withdrawals when you dont have stock
sinful trout
@junior pecan youre basing most of this on loa and vodun, but the existance of loa in hunt is still questionable at best. In fact
Vodou markings and tattoos in hunt are less a source of power and more a sign of religion. Try to steer away from the fact that it holds any power
amber harbor
And you need to bring in more stock when withdrawals are made
This fits withthe mirror theory imo
What do you think?
sinful trout
That actually solves most of the issues. Only part is it partially changes the mirror theory from biomass harvesting to soulmass harvesting. At which point its closer to soulthirst. Rather than mirror theory
amber harbor
Could be biomass as well, with removing part of the soul so the meat doesnt run away
sinful trout
Do just to clarify. You believe that the grunts arent in fact soulless. That theyre overstuffed with souls forcing their bodies to go rabid and feral in nature, and that the sculptor is not quite done with them in the sense he wishes to harbest their biomass in the future?
amber harbor
No, but i like the idea. I was thinking more of a 2 part process: first you get the powerful part of the soul that makes us human, then the superficial mechanical one
sinful trout
Interesting. I like it
amber harbor
Like timber and plywood
sinful trout
A hole worth noting
Moths devour most of the grunts from the inside
Larvae with prenatal fluid replaces blood
And the heart becomes a sort of black pump
What would the purpose of this be?
amber harbor
Moths could be just part of the decomposition process
Others i have to think about
Maybe the larvae and the black heart are actually the "refined" biomass the sculptor is looking for
Larvae 'fermenting' bodies like with wine
and moths maybe making this process easier
like farmers which let ladybugs eat the parasites on plants
but this goes back to the farmboy sculptor rather the banker
i had other theories as well, while i'm back
ever wondered if bosses respawn wherever the bounties are discarded?
maybe the kidney stones are linked with the soul by 'sentimental value', if i recall that was a concept in voudou
which would bring the question are those the same kidney stones reinfused with the original souls' intent?
after all, the mirror theory says the sculptor deals in souls, so it would make sense to create kidney stone 'portals' once and work from there
that or the bounties are super cheap to get and their link with the organs makes them harder to recover
so he just leaves them there
going back to the bank theory, the sculptor could be using the hunts to go between the cycles of aquire meat, refine meat and withdraw
he sends out a ds pulse which puts him on the radar of a potential hunt
he then isolates the part he would like recovered(ex he doesnt need the spider anymore, he puts up a spider single bounty contract)
hunters do the rest: they banish the meat back to him, making it useful for trade or further use on earth, then he leaves a 'tip' in form of the bounties, which are not that useful to him but hunters seem to love
junior pecan
@amber harbor biomass is the central aspect of mirror theory, though the two ideas may be capable of coexisting
Bounty is less of a tip, its a motivator, like cheese in a maze
@amber harbor refined biomass unnecessary. The djinn kinda implies its safe for immediate use. Its important to note that that concept very nearly opposes the mutagen argument.
Oh shit though, look at the end of pax one “glowing pulsating liquid” keeping someone alive.
Considering its need of an origin i’d say this shows that the grunt physiology is about prolonging operation more than anything.
amber harbor
could it be the liquid coroners use to preserve bodies?
junior pecan
@sinful trout im basing it on the deeper analysis of Loa present in the theory. The holy ghost, kami, djinn. All point towards something immaterial, and the immaterial shouldnt have a method of interacting with mass (as we’ve seen)
@amber harbor no, normal liquids dont pulsate
Its biological. Probably djinn in origin
amber harbor
or at least have the same function
junior pecan
If slugs produce it, and slugs paralyze hunters, it could be an attempt to further expose hunters to the influence, ergo farming souls
With the soul being the method, not the goal
Like farming hops
You dont eat hops you use them to get alcohol
More steps at play
amber harbor
so would the in game poison be that pulsating liquid?
junior pecan
Yup, but it does seem gaseous doesnt it?
amber harbor
yes, there are many plotholes with this
it is supposed to paralyse, yet we dont experience that in game
junior pecan
The uhh bad as they seem
I dont remember which chapter it is
But its in there, when they meet salter
Probably two different liquids honestly
One to facilitate the acquisition of new agents
One to promote their longevity and utility
I cant think of one biological element that does both, nor any fictional one
This would justify why paxton and scog call them soul reapers
amber harbor
the first one isnt very realistic either way
junior pecan
What causes acquisition?
amber harbor
we know they go crazy and they start hearing voices
junior pecan
Thats a loose answer but an answer nevertheless. The influence. Spiritual energy exerted on the soul
Hearing voices could be literal schizophrenia as a result
amber harbor
which would make sense considering what var said about stockpiling souls in one body
junior pecan
Ehhhhhhhh
junior pecan
Voices should be psychological not spiritual
junior pecan
That one requires detail
Soul by my guesstimates should govern impulses to a degree, but impulses are already a subconscious tendency. If he’s disassociating with his conscious mind (hearing voices) then he could disassociate with his subconscious as well
We know too little about the soul
I think it discreetly governs long term decision making, and provides spiritual energy over time, but thats mostly guesswork
Imolator proves the latter
amber harbor
she said that she moreso felt the demon/angel, so that communication is more diffuse, hence i assumed any commands from it would be part of impulse
junior pecan
She did say they were innate
But not impulses
She implied she was deciding and she was convinced not to trust the snake
So this should be a special case
Bizarre, could be psionics
amber harbor
so would the liquid/poison would disable or diminuate that rational part
junior pecan
Shit man its xenobiology we dont know what it could do
And again, the fact that she did it willingly shows its a special case
Grunts dont pick a side
They go crazy
When you pick up a clue you gain innate knowledge, so if inoculum holds up then spirit should feel innate
No voices
Though... we’ve seen voices already in the boss lair whispering mechanic
Yeah we definitely dont have enough material to work with. We need to know the method by which the soul communicates with the mind. If Inoculum theory is true then its innate, but we’ve already seen phenomena of hearing other voices in game, so what is the source of that?
amber harbor
maybe for sane people they try to rationalise it through voices?
junior pecan
Not a thing, i dont think
amber harbor
or for hunters at least
junior pecan
Ego defense of rationalize is for justifying actions
Thoughhh, it should continue to thoughts, just not like that???
Its typically the shadow being suppressed but i suppose a conscious person could seek to suppress conscious thoughts?
No, that wouldnt rationalize it
Rationalizing would be the hunter saying “these arent my thoughts im being possessed” not translating innate knowledge to words
The whispers are probably another method of spiritual detection.
Could be picking up on the soul end of brain activity, measuring to see if theres a spike from another soul?
That would explain why its whispering,
amber harbor
so basically a radar?
junior pecan
Yeah, but probably using the bounty to communicate the information
Thus why you cant pick up on the direction
Its like talking through a pane of glass, your soul cant fully communicate due to the bounty being concealed
But this all should require the inoculum to perform
Or, not necessarily?? Im uncertain
Perhaps there is more required to perform dark sight. Perhaps most people arent aware of the methods to utilize the soul
That would give some mystics an ability to detect other individuals ahead of time, hmmm
The seams are coming loose
We dont know what the hell the whispering is
If it were a radar then you wouldnt be hearing the voices, youd be hearing innate thoughts
Your SOUL would be hearing the voices
So i think thats out
If it were rationalizing then we wouldnt hear other peoples voices
Would be our own
Damnit, this hearing voices trouble conflicts with everything else so badly
If its soul-soul-mind then it shouldnt happen for both hunters and nonhunters
And it cant be soul-mind
Souls cant exert control over biology that is not their own
Only over the respective soul
Maybe its just a high exposure to the influence
That makes the most sense to me
Hearing voices is often a product of going insane
But why would it be an indicator. Something about witnessing the influence on someone else?
amber harbor
why would it not be other people's voices?
people can think in different voices
if you personify the demon thoughts you would give them a voice that fits your understanding of them
in this case a lot of beings
junior pecan
Wouldnt be other peoples voices because soul communicates back to you innately. But, if the soul didn’t know what to do with the information, if it couldnt differentiate between the sound of one person whispering vs two, which it shouldnt, then it might choose to communicate the whole sound
Important to note it isnt sound, its mental activity
Just that we refer to mental activity we hear as sound, even though we technically dont hear it
amber harbor
thats moreso linked to the way we hear sound, its an illusion concieved in the brain
amber harbor
so it could be directly affecting that part of the brain
or it could be a new sensory organ, a sixth sense that is triggered and since we cant process that input with a specific system it defaults to hearing
junior pecan
Should default to sight not hearing
Hearing is the secondary sense
Sight is primary
amber harbor
well the funcion of this radar could be considered secondary
just so it doesnt cloud the screen
junior pecan
Yes but if its defaulting to something itd default to sight
amber harbor
seeing more realities at once can fuck with your perception
junior pecan
Or smell/taste being the least important
Many people smell a certain smell before a stroke or aneurism
amber harbor
do you consider the white / red flashes cannon or accessibility feature?
junior pecan
Accessibility if its in the UI
amber harbor
if cannon it could signify something like that, a gut feeling
junior pecan
Ok considering its function along with its use in DS and the nature of DS methods, its probably a radar for mental activity that sends the results of the radar back to the brain for analysis through the bounty
Bounty being concealed means it gets muffled and the voices become whispers
amber harbor
then why dont you hear shouting when carrying it or when banished but not picked up?
junior pecan
Because at that point it becomes simpler to communicate it visually. And it probably loses some of its functionality post banish
Maybe the boss soul can power it longer than human soul
So when deprived of that you get left with 5 seconds rechargeable through interaction with downed souls
amber harbor
maybe there is a link between boss whispers and the ritual whispers to access ds
junior pecan
Ritual whispers is canonically just your hunter casting the spell
And they sound different, decidedly so
amber harbor
maybe hearing ds casting across realities?
junior pecan
Soul wouldnt need or be able to communicate that back to you
Too far, its just normal whispering
I think it said so in water devil
Yeah it does. In the third or fourth entry
junior pecan
So it could be a radar, and thats the only explanation we’ve got
plain grove
I've a lore question that might obvious to people who are more versed in the topic
Do we know the identities of those that were made into bosses? Do they have a stable identity or are they just rarer forms of the Louisiana infestation?
amber harbor
@plain grove we do, assassin is vincent corsica, the butcher is a taxidermed meathead and the spider is a party of 13 different people
plain grove
Intriguing
Would you say that William Salter is going to be the Wendigo?
I hope I got the name right
He appears in the additional document for Spectre Bayonet as I recall, the contents of that note make me think he might have become one
junior pecan
“The wendigo”?
plain grove
The rumoured 4th boss that might appear
I'm not entirely sure about the rumour validity, especially since all the bosses have something to do with insects and I'm not sure how they'd tie a Wendigo into that
sinful trout
I believe the devs said something about taking their own ways on bosses. As in no supernatural creatures currently present @plain grove
Human monster spider. Fictional
Taxadermied meathead. Fictional
Mass of bugs with blades. Fictional
@junior pecan @amber harbor recap?
plain grove
I see, so basically nothing that actually has a place in folklore already
Or at least, anywhere close to the form they're presented in Hunt
sinful trout
Mm community has been suggesting it for some time but i doubt theyll release one
plain grove
I'm sorta new to the lore, I'm still unlocking lots of lore while enjoying the game, but one thing that immediately stands out is that most creatures all revolve around insects, has anything been established regarding why the Louisiana event favors insects so much?
plain grove
Not yet
sinful trout
So
"the sculptor" is an entity (or being) from another dimension that came to ours
Hes one of a few entities that are involved with this Louisiana event (louvent for short)
Hes also the main one
Its rumored that entities have one or more aspects. @slim hatch came up with this theory.
Its mostly believed that our sculptor has the aspect of pestulence (disease, insects etc).
While the "plague" in game is just the side effect of the sculptors power. Meaning its not actually a plague, or affliction. But it has properties of both.
Following so far?
plain grove
Yes, makes sense, I'm rather accustomed to stories in which entities are given core aspects
sinful trout
Brilliant. You two will get along if she ever finally awakens.
On that note. There have been many events in the past. This wasnt the furst nor is it the last but were told this ones different
And the outcome will have definitive impacts to the story
plain grove
Sounds interesting, I'm wondering what's different from the previous ones though
Maybe the almost intentional structure? Like the entity is prepping for expanding into our world by assigning different units and hubs of activity
sinful trout
so we know of one event that was the "worst event"
its called "the sundering" which litterally means to split apart
its a ongoing theory that the louvent is the sundering
but we dont know for certain
main basis on it is the AHA essentially has split apart
plain grove
What is AHA in this context?
amber harbor
American hunter association
plain grove
Thanks for the clarification
slim hatch
HELLO! YES SORRY I'M NOT SLEEPING!
Anyway to expand on @sinful trout 's statement, indeed the aspect theory was based on the original old lore and classical element of writing where every form of supernatural entity usually has a core trait / aspect to their power. I believe if someone is to query in search for in:#lore-discussion from: The Essence of Darkness and Evil#7241 decay you should see the discussion about the aspects
https://discordapp.com/channels/350201607788429323/370142302196334593/556873715963527169 Here is a link for one of the discussions about aspects
jagged tide
https://steamcommunity.com/app/594650/discussions/8/2292842508246099399/
Any suggestions so far to improve the rule-set?
I am uncertain about a few restrictions und would like to hear your oppinions on the matter:
1.) Blank-fire-decoys and decoy-fuses: Both can set Barrels and Oil-films aflame, but they are also tools of deception, which dosent actually match with the straight-forward idea of the faction. So allow them or not allow them?
2.) Vitality-shots: Playing without them is a serious disadvantage and puts the loadout close to being meme-ish. On the other hand, Firebombs are the trademark-item of the faction. So how many Vitality-shots should be allowed? None, 1, 2, or as much as you want?
3.) Vigilance & Alert-Tripmine: Mining yellow barrels is a good way to set enemies on fire and fortifying an area to hold it (like Healing-water Church) sounds like a fine tactic for the faction. On the other hand, traps and especially Vigilance seem like a "sneaky" tool for this, which is not the way of St Michael.
What do you guys think about these points?
Any other aspects of the rule-set you struggle with?
Feel free to comment in the forum.
sinful trout
@slim hatch good morning ess.
@plain grove so if you still follow up to this point. you may not in a second as this is where it gets hazy and mostly based on theory.
in each of the contract zones we have wellsprings that appear either after or before a boss appears. weather its the same rifts the sculptor uses to exhale his influence or something left behind from the clues we opened during the hunt we dont know. all we know is that the wellspring energy is extremely valuable to the AHA and therefore they created a posting appealing to religious hunters to compel them to go out in search of it.
from this a few theories were born.
Original wellspring theory: based around how when someone dies and is looted during a hunt they enter a half dead state and are woken up by the wellsprings appearance. these "damned" hunters get one more chance to come alive again. at this point. they start closing rifts. (formerly clues from the hunt) and they begin to reclaim their power with every rift closed (hence they get perks per close) upon singling the wellspring to only come out of one area, it surges forth and binds with a hunter. at this point its in the realm and can fully heal the user (hence why you get full health when you pick it up) its then in the process of fully binding itself to one user. but it still grants enough power to keep nearby hunters alive, forcing them to duke it out until one remains or the wellspring fully binds to a host. at which point they go back to the aha to claim their prize.
this theory became pretty well known and most of us like it as it explains a lot. it then begged the quesstion.
if it bound itself to a host. how does the AHA reclaim it?
we bounced back and forth on a few ideas; aha has an extractor that takes the wellspring from you, the aha kills you and uses your body to experiment. but the one we all settled on is the soulstone theory
this theory ties itself to the fact that when you have a wellspring, it begins to physically manifest inside you building up like a stone, this explains a few things
why you cant regain lost wellspring energy from downed hunters.
The aha could extract the stone, leaving you alive.
The stone eminates power which is why all other hunters can see you through darksight. (theyre not seeing you, but in fact. the stone)
so we settled on it, and after a while we thought. why cant this work for bounties as well? perhaps the stone itself is manifested in bosses, and much like hunters, are unaware its even there until banishment comes and the hunters notice a weird object amongst the ash. (this could date all the way back to the first hunt where they managed to banish a boss and stumble upon the stone that wouldnt be banished itself. could have been considered a holy relic at the time)
from here we jumped around and played with it a bit and then the idea of the bounty being a physical object came up in a qna. from where we got this
Q. What are we actually picking up from the bosses? We get it’s a token but what actually is it?
A: It’s a unique part of their body containing part of their soul.
so this correlated to the soulstone theory. but in the same qna we got this:
Q why is the sculptor here?
A: hunger
from this we all jitterred with excitement and shifted focus. from there we came up with the soul Thirst theory.
this theory came off as a food source for the sculptor. as we had notes from Scognamillio and paxton calling meatheads soul farmers, add in the immense amount of voodoo presence in hunt showdown and you get examples like splitting the Ti bon ange (soul) from the gros bon ange (body) and you get people acting the exact same way as grunts. from there we deduced its likely the sculptor is farming human souls here in the louvent and is then packing up.
after we came up with it we noticed that theres two differrent sections for the louvent.
still water bayou, where almost every dead body you see is decayed, rotten and torn apart.
then Lawson delta, where most bodies you see are fresh, recent dead and hardly torn up.
this led some of us to belive that the sculptor is in fact, popping up, filling up on souls, then jumping to a different area.
still with me?
slim hatch
PS. The Soul Stone theory, I don't know anything about that and based on my OLD LORE views, that seems far stretched and borderline head canon.
The Oldest wellspring theory is based on the fact that the power hunters use (Dark Sight and others) all over time cause putrification (Grasp / Influence of Sculptor) causing decay of the hunters which eventually will lead to their death. - REF The Announcement by Philip Huff Jones. And Wellspring allows one to roll back its effects, the whole argument in original announcement is that AHA wants to retain veteran hunters as such they are willing to accept that those about to expire will fight and kill each other to fight another day. Their experience is what makes it an acceptable sacrifice (Lose 10 or lose 9 and retain 1 veteran to keep fighting?)
I've no intel on that soul crystal, killing extraction stuff as it completely contradicts Philip Huff Jones'es announcement and I've been away so I have jack shit clue what theories move around nowdays
sinful trout
its the same 3. they came about after you left. and yes! as youve noted theres still so many holes in all of them.
as you brought up its noted in the original announcement that AHA has become aware of wellsprings and are sending hunters to go find them to "save their souls" he also notes in the letter that (many years ago) there was a hunter that blessed them in documenting the event. unfortunately it didnt say where that first wellspring was nor did it say when it was.
slim hatch
The signs of the damned are multi-fold: at first there is no visual indication, though in later stages the body may begin to deform and putrefy. All cases end in death. The energy of the Wellspring can heal this ill, and afflicted Hunters will be sent out to do so, for both their own sake, and the benefit of the AHA, who has great need of the Wellspring's energy, and will exchange bounty for any retrieved and brought in.