💽Programming Chat v2

[timid quartz]

yyyyyyyyyyyyes

[spare quartz]

i kinda wanna send a good serverhello beforei sleep

[timid quartz]

bayachao would want you to sleeb

[spare quartz]

mf they're making suggestive a

oh my god thats the worst character you could've possibly used

[timid quartz]

do you think I know anything about bayachao lore

LOL]

HAHAHAHAHAH

GET AUTOMODDED

GO SLEEP @spare quartz

LMAOO

[spare quartz]

WHAT I SAID STILL STANDS TRUE

[timid quartz]

you wanna say it again ;3

[spare quartz]

yeah

goo

[timid quartz]

they're canonically goo?

dang

slime monster

[spare quartz]

okay but like

https://bsky.app/profile/bayachao.bsky.social

マム・マーマル (@bayachao.bsky.social)

自由を尊重します。（なのでそっとしておいてください）

Bluesky

take a look at their profile for 5 seconds

and you'll know what they'd REALLY want

[timid quartz]

posting nsfw links get rule 2 warn'd

[spare quartz]

ITS NOT NSFW

i think

idk thats just the artists page 😭

okay there is bad stuff if you scroll down enough but it's censored due to bluesky policies (thank god)

but still you can read japanese well enough to get the message

[timid quartz]

no I can't :3

[spare quartz]

wha

you can't ????????

bros posting makemon now 💔

fake fan

yknow

sometimes this dependency-less stuff gets out of hand

got wireshark working on wsl

thisll make testing a lot easier

[timid quartz]

it's almost like people share code for a reason...

[spare quartz]

think about the feds and the glowies though!!

The protocol version the client attempted to negotiate is recognized, but not supported. For example, old protocol versions might be avoided for security reasons. This message is always fatal.

guess i really do need to implement extensions

[timid quartz]

you really need to go to bed..

zst

[spare quartz]

bleh

off myby one

THERE

ignore the weird !? symbols, terminal got corrupted somehow and replaced [] with those two

[spare quartz]

oh yeah one thing

https://youtu.be/cniuDeNifeA

makefile makefile reference

[timid quartz]

oh I see...yeah I see what the second one is now

[spare quartz]

you mean the third

[timid quartz]

no the second

https://tenor.com/view/makemon-bayachao-babio-furry-3d-gif-14086784688955344264

this one

[spare quartz]

OH i thought you meant in the thumbnail

yeah they'e a um

AUTOMOD word

[timid quartz]

yeah

yikes

[spare quartz]

i would say what the second one in the thumbnail represents but like

ummm

nope :3

[spare quartz]

https://fixupx.com/__femb0t/status/1859572935293321567/photo/1

[spare quartz]

Sleep time

[lavish dove]

3: sharing your source code but implement features on a different private repository

[spare quartz]

average corporation

[lyric mesa]

[full berry]

use maria

shrimple

[spare quartz]

use meowniumdb

[spare quartz]

800 lines already for this is getting quite hard

RESPECT NETWORK ORDER!!!!!!

[spare quartz]

HEY IT WORKED

the way this is setup is a bit weird but it works

[spare quartz]

s

oops!

[lavish dove]

Why

[spare quartz]

this is a networking protocol

all network protocols are supposed to be in big endian (that's the wire order everyone agreed upon)

[lavish dove]

fr?!!?

[spare quartz]

yes

[lavish dove]

But that doesn't make sense cuz every individual protocol won't be working together

And it's inconvenient

[spare quartz]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endianness

[lavish dove]

Bro I'm reading that rn

[spare quartz]

see

[lavish dove]

So it's not agreed?

[spare quartz]

it is agreed

theres outliers which shouldn't exist

[lavish dove]

Because ip uses it

Oh

[spare quartz]

it was originally defined in RFC 1700 which sorta served as a baseline for everyone to follow (like bios in a way)

to change that would just make protocols less consistent

[lavish dove]

It only says that ip will use big endian

It won't let me cooy

And the Rfc is describing iana's job

The convention in the documentation of Internet Protocols is to express numbers in decimal and to picture data in "big-endian" order

[spare quartz]

internet protocols

note the s at the end

[lavish dove]

H

[spare quartz]

still even if all protocols were little endian we'd still need to do the conversion for certain systems

thats what i do here for example

On bed

[timid quartz]

wouldn't happen if you used rust >:^3

[spare quartz]

actually it would

[timid quartz]

mmm nope

[spare quartz]

I was lazy and basically made an SSL ddos tool using an external DLL

if I used the same DLL with the same threading it’d crash in rust too

since that’s a C++ error, not ads

Ada

Bellhhh

[timid quartz]

ok but

you wouldn't be using the same dll

you wouldn't be using a dll at all

[spare quartz]

I would

[timid quartz]

because rust has good crates for ssl

so you wouldn't need a dll

[spare quartz]

So does Ada

[timid quartz]

yeah wolfssl which you refuse to use

[spare quartz]

Not wolfssl

AWS has its own SSL library which is better than what I did

But it takes a while to compile so I didn’t go that route

The error makes sense though

[timid quartz]

waah waah I need my 10k+ loc project to compile in under 500ms

[spare quartz]

I basically tried to use the same object… over 400 threads all at once

[spare quartz]

loc?

[timid quartz]

line(s) of code

[spare quartz]

This is a burner project

[timid quartz]

waah waah I can't handle longer compile times even if it means more memory safety features and more niceties like macros and syntactic sugar that de-sugars into a zero-cost abstraction

[spare quartz]

Me when I lie

Also rust would take like 50x longer than an Ada project with AWS

[timid quartz]

yeah because rust does like 50x more for you when it compiles

[spare quartz]

like what

[timid quartz]

more memory safety features and more niceties like macros and syntactic sugar that de-sugars into a zero-cost abstraction

[spare quartz]

mf we have all of that

[timid quartz]

says the lang that doesnt even know when to insert free() calls

[spare quartz]

pragma Intrinsics + memory safety + literal security features such as ROP protection

[spare quartz]

Me when I dynamically deallocate* on a microcontroller and screw everything up

Also just a note the language recognizes when to destroy an object

Everything that’s going to be “cleaned up” and is controlled is finalized

It’s just not freed unless requested explicitly by the programmer

[timid quartz]

me when I don't have to worry about that because it's handled at compile time

[spare quartz]

okay now code an airplane with it

[spare quartz]

rss?? like rss feed??

[timid quartz]

additionally like ada

libraries are normally included as source

not as prebuilt binaries

so it does all of the compilation steps recursively

for all the crates

[spare quartz]

yeah

[timid quartz]

and idk if you've ever seen how nice a rust compile error looks but it takes some non-trivial semantic parsing and analysis to get those errors

it's honestly a wonder that rustc isn't slower

[spare quartz]

GNAT compile errors might not look as nice but they’re still very helpful

The way they’re written is a lot different from other languages though which makes them confusing at first

[timid quartz]

ok well example

when I'm like idk making a custom 'Read

gnat says "incorrect expression type for whatever'Read"

which like makes sense

rust will usually show you exactly what part is incorrect and suggest a fix

so like with GNAT, it was that the Stream type was wrong (it wasn't not null access Ada.Streams.Root_Stream_Type'Class)

Rust would say "oh this type right here needs to be this"

[spare quartz]

maybe you could suggest that as an RFC to the GCC devs

[timid quartz]

it would make your compiling slower

[spare quartz]

not by much

the GNAT compiler itself is a complete semantic analyzer, better than libadalang

it just needs a better way to display what’s wrong

[timid quartz]

I was just making a point about why Rust compilation takes so long

because it does a ton of stuff designed to make it useful for every crate pulled in by your project

and even then it has incremental builds so it does the same thing that gprbuild does

[spare quartz]

Stupid dumb cat

[spare quartz]

Wonder what a failure to implement an abstract function for a type would look like in Ada

[spare quartz]

oh Ada does that actually

[timid quartz]

it does it mostly

it doesn't really tell you what to import

[spare quartz]

suggests “with x;” or “use x;” if you’re using something and doesn’t have it/not qualifying

[timid quartz]

I've not had it suggest that

[spare quartz]

Weird

[timid quartz]

it just says "declaration in <file>"

[spare quartz]

Oh that’s probably cause multiple things are specifying the same object and you’re “use”ing both

[timid quartz]

it gives you a hint as to what to import but doesn't really tell you

[spare quartz]

there’s special keywords to assist with that in tandem with “use”, but I haven’t gotten much use out of them

[timid quartz]

well it could yknow say that

[spare quartz]

well it issss… just in a verbose way

[timid quartz]

mf likes ada because it's more verbose and leaves less assumptions but then deals with a compiler that is less verbose and relies on you assuming you know what some errors mean

[spare quartz]

well again the errors make perfect sense for a problem

and aren’t gonna throw you in a loop like (shudders) C++

[spare quartz]

but they’re just harder to understand as a result since they’re usually a single sentence

[timid quartz]

yeah at least they're not c++ errors

[spare quartz]

e.g.

[timid quartz]

or even worse, the dreaded "segmentation fault (core dumped)"

but rust compiler errors just easily blow basically everything else out of the water

not to say that all the errors are good because you can certainly get some cryptic ones, especially if you start fucking around with async a lot

[spare quartz]

there’s also “private with” and “limited with” but I have no idea how those work yet

[spare quartz]

oh?

[timid quartz]

async and lifetimes are where rust gets weird if you aren't careful

[spare quartz]

(oh, I see, “private with” is withs only visible for private parts like private spec/body, and “limited with” is basically allowing a certain type in a package to be used in another package without causing a cyclical dependency)

[spare quartz]

how do you mean

[timid quartz]

well you know what the function coloring problem is right

[spare quartz]

nnnnoooo

[timid quartz]

well it has to do with async functions

the problem basically is that once you mark one function as async, the async "color" spreads all around your program

[spare quartz]

OH kotlin suffers with that

[timid quartz]

basically every language does

that has async

including rust

[spare quartz]

not Ada babbbbyyy (the accept in question)

[timid quartz]

I mean

anyways

rust ALSO has another "virus" called lifetimes

which are normally invisible but their job is to tell the borrow checker how long something lives

however they can appear whenever you have a reference that isn't yours

and once they pop up in one place they spread around

like this

now anything that uses MyStruct is gonna end up with that lifetime in it

[spare quartz]

Blehhh

[timid quartz]

sometimes it can get elided but

not all the time

(and in this example you'd probably just use a String anyways which is an owned type, not a reference type)

(and completely bypass this issue)

but if you end up with async/and or lifetimes all around your code, sometimes the errors can get weird

[spare quartz]

https://www.tedinski.com/2018/11/13/function-coloring.html

reading this

[timid quartz]

error[E0597]: `fb_config` does not live long enough
  --> src/main.rs:37:45
   |
26 | pub extern "sysv64" fn kernel_main (mut fb_config: FrameBufferConfig) -> ! {
   |                                     ------------- has type `FrameBufferConfig<'1>`
...
37 |     let mut pixel_writer = PixelWriter::new(&mut fb_config);
   |                            -----------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^-
   |                            |                |
   |                            |                borrowed value does not live long enough
   |                            argument requires that `fb_config` is borrowed for `'1`
...
66 | }
   | - `fb_config` dropped here while still borrowed

example of something with lifetimes

like to me it seems not that bad

but it can be confusing

[spare quartz]

oh wow that gets destroyed on phone

[timid quartz]

I'm sure there's worse errors out there

[spare quartz]

https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/7sj1jv/what_is_the_nastiest_error_message_the_rust/?rdt=33128

[timid quartz]

yeah i saw that

[spare quartz]

there was one error I’ve gotten out of the blue from GCC that’s totally just

garbage

it happens during the binding process, something after the first build gets screwed up so I have to delete everything in obj, but all it does is fail the compilation with

<none>:9:13: invalid character

or something like that

[timid quartz]

gg

[spare quartz]

No idea what made it happen but I’ve just mitigated it by including an rm rf in 2 build scripts

rustc terminated: SEGMENTATION FAULT

[timid quartz]

you mean in your 2 glorified makefiles

[timid quartz]

lmao

[spare quartz]

shut

[timid quartz]

gprbuild terminated: general protection fault

[spare quartz]

aw hell naw

kernel level gprbuild

I haven’t come across any serious GCC bugs apart from it temporarily bricking a pi

[timid quartz]

you said you wanted to make an exe reader too right

[spare quartz]

Maybe

I’ve already made an ELF reader

But that was only on Roblox…

[timid quartz]

you should

do it in rust

[spare quartz]

okay, add disassembly to yours and I just might :3

(/j)

https://fixupx.com/ntauthority/status/1859899576578425307?s=46

[proud creek]

bruh 😭

[lavish dove]

yeah but its inconvenient 😭

that number of systems is shrinking

[timid quartz]

linux once again proves its utter incompetency

by failing to run an rpg maker game which is basically glorified chromium

[lavish dove]

wat

which game

[timid quartz]

and yes

I tried every proton version under the sun

including ge

flatpak and non-flatpak steam

and I only made it to the title screen once

[lavish dove]

idk how to debug proton

[timid quartz]

by switching to windows

linux SUCKS!!!!!!!

[lavish dove]

how does something made for windows not working on linux mean linux sucks

it wont work on macos either

[timid quartz]

uh cause...the game will never support linux natively

so linux is sucking at its job of making it work anyways which everyone says it can do

[lavish dove]

wa

[timid quartz]

it's true

and no I really don't want to use fucking xorg

"ooh linux is better" no it really aint....like even for some native linux apps, whether it'll work right is a tossup, and then it's even less predictable that shit that isn't native will even run at all

and sometimes you gotta switch to xorg or do this or that or whatever

like sure windows spies on you and sells all your data but like shit at least I don't have to log out and log back in to play one fucking game

and no "just use xorg dont use wayland" is not viable xorg is hot garbage like the rest of linux

[lavish dove]

xorg is kinda shitty

I dont like how i haved to choose between it and wayland

but ive never had a problem with native linux app

just install, sometimes its not one command to install then I haved to install its file then its one command to install.. but thats literally just downloading it and then installing it

[timid quartz]

the real answer is just to use windows

[lavish dove]

windows is slower for me though

its more convenient to use linux because I can just easily find and delete programs

[timid quartz]

heard of wsl

lmao

[lavish dove]

thats not as fast as real linux tho

[timid quartz]

ok and

What are you even doing that you can’t do on windows

If you’re trying to game on a Ryzen with an AMD GPU then I will cede that Linux is faster

But if you have an Nvidia GPU then like what are you doing on Linux

[spare quartz]

getting somewhere

its reading extensions properly

just malformed the write on key share

[spare quartz]

very good sign!

[spare quartz]

this is "secure" but the client appears to have accepted it

[lavish dove]

gaming on nvidia is fine

everything else is

ugh

but I can just change it to use my integrated graphics lol

[lavish dove]

its not just fine its actuall great lol

for some reason opencl runs at like double the speed

[lavish dove]

but thats because nvidia literally isnt allowing that shit

[lavish dove]

like its so obvious too because opencl is used for ai

a

[spare quartz]

right

gotta actually deal with encrypted data now

this'll be awful

[lavish dove]

why use tls if you can make your own

[spare quartz]

?

[lavish dove]

grab some public domain rsa functions

and then do it yourself part of your protocol

[spare quartz]

this is a tls library its not "my protocol"

and i would but finding the algorithm and knowing how to execute it in code are two different things

[lavish dove]

oof

[lavish dove]

uhm no

its really simple 😭

[spare quartz]

no its not

[lavish dove]

well to copy paste it is

[spare quartz]

X25516 key generation in ada isn't simple

[lavish dove]

oh that

i meant like rsa

[spare quartz]

nonono adacore already made a tutorial on that

TLS 1.3 doesn't allow you to use RSA algos

[lavish dove]

I mean rsa is the one that a bunch of people got together and decided was the best so

[spare quartz]

here

[lavish dove]

aes not rsa a

[spare quartz]

theres one algo im missing but this is everything tls 1.3 initially defines for use

[lavish dove]

rsa is the enterprise physical security key company thing

[spare quartz]

yeah but don't you need like

[lavish dove]

w

[spare quartz]

a giant key for it to be secure now-a-days

like RSA 2048

[lavish dove]

giant as in 256 bits

[lavish dove]

isnt your gnu key thing I forgot the name of 512 bits

[spare quartz]

PGP?

[lavish dove]

yeah

I was using gnukey and it said yours was 512

I think

and aero's was 256

or mine was

[spare quartz]

hm

my keys are using these two

[lavish dove]

oh oof

idk what that is

[spare quartz]

they're uh

[lavish dove]

but I know like unless its permanent even 256 bits is pretty secure

[spare quartz]

keys based on elliptic curves basically

like you generate 256 bits of random information (private key) run it through a mathematical function (the elliptic curve) and thats your public key

[lavish dove]

oh thats cool asf

[spare quartz]

TLS does it for every session

https://x25519.xargs.org/

heres a good site on it

[lavish dove]

thats going in favorites

[spare quartz]

i might've explained stuff wrong cause cryptography is honestly the thing in programming im the worst at

but that's what i know so far

[lavish dove]

yeah its all magic

I would haved to learn more about it for the tcp replacement thing I keep talking about

[timid quartz]

Me when I make an inverse curve and run your public keys through it

[lavish dove]

fr lets just flip the curve and then doneeeeee

[spare quartz]

NO

you can’t just do that!!!

the big numbers!!! the big math!!! bigggg!!!!

[lavish dove]

did you know

theres a __uint128__t type for gcc

and c2x is apparently going to have infinitely sizable bit counts

alot of it is complete dogshit though

like why tf does #embed act exactly like #include but makes thing into strings

why the actual fuck

apparently theres functions to do decimal math now

_bitint

_bitint for the infinitel sizable bit counts

but there isnt a full implementation cuz its a fucking bitchy idea

and they didnt fix https://en.cppreference.com/w/c/preprocessor/embed to work better

[timid quartz]

AND anything I stream on discord has no audio

[spare quartz]

ada has 128 bit numerical support already

i need 256 bits though

[spare quartz]

oh neat

[full berry]

@spare quartz hey have you done anything with your wsl that involved like exposing ports and nginx and shit

[spare quartz]

constantly

[full berry]

because i'm trying to do something, and like i'm expoising something on port 2000, and when i connect to it via localhost:2000 it shows me what needs to be shown

but when i do ip:2000 or use the domain i assigned, it just loads forever and fails to connect

any pointers?

[spare quartz]

run wsl hostname -I

then run netsh interface portproxy add v4tov4 listenport=<port> listenaddress=0.0.0.0 connectport=<port> connectaddress=<WSL2 IP> in admin

[full berry]

okay

i got 3 ips though

[spare quartz]

?

[full berry]

https://cdn.astrohweston.xyz/u/dae0b092-26b2-4800-9b97-1f6b7598b6b5.png

[spare quartz]

use the leftmost

[full berry]

ssssssssstill nothing

i added both 2000 and 80

[spare quartz]

and your firewall allows those two right?

[full berry]

yeah i added a rule

uh

[spare quartz]

as well as them being port fwded by the router?

[full berry]

well the ufw is disabled and my windows defender firewall has a rule added

[full berry]

[spare quartz]

okay then try the portproxy command on the other ips

[full berry]

does it need to be forwarded by the router?

[spare quartz]

... if you're trying to access it from outside the network yeah

[full berry]

oml time to dive into croatian routers again

wait is it this

because theres nothing called

port forwarding lmao

https://cdn.astrohweston.xyz/u/67fb2d21-98e6-4910-9d68-83cc6a6cf2ee.png

[spare quartz]

i think thats it yeah

weird its not called NAT or Port forwarding though

[full berry]

i have NAT settings

oh wait nvm that's just

nat mode

wait

remote host and wan port??

https://cdn.astrohweston.xyz/u/9cbb4f3e-a252-4b37-8a31-645e9216ab8d.png

[spare quartz]

e.g.

[spare quartz]

remote host..? uhh

[spare quartz]

could it mean the routers ip?

[full berry]

i have no clue

maybe i can leave it empty

[spare quartz]

if it don't let you then just search up your ip on google and enter it on that

[full berry]

wait what the fuck

[spare quartz]

?

[full berry]

????

https://cdn.astrohweston.xyz/u/ae558b0c-860f-4cb5-8adb-2c6b65049241.mp4

why is it doing htat

[spare quartz]

its probably offsetting the port number so you don't get something like

external ports: 10-20
internal ports: 1-5

[full berry]

wh

https://cdn.astrohweston.xyz/u/98f07b12-1b4c-48f4-8e94-c8b25bafe57c.png

[spare quartz]

probably reserves those for data

[full berry]

ill just do 80 - 80 and 2000 - 2000

[spare quartz]

https://www.speedguide.net/port.php?port=68

68 seems to be DHCP

1701 is for VPNs... 7547 is for something called CPE WAN management protocol

[full berry]

why do you know all this lmao

[spare quartz]

i don't

[full berry]

but uh yeah its still refusing to

[spare quartz]

im looking it up

[full berry]

connect

what the flip

[spare quartz]

show your settings?

[full berry]

https://cdn.astrohweston.xyz/u/bdb54b84-aa10-4845-89b5-327ccc5a96ca.png

my remote host is my ip

https://ipchicken.com

[spare quartz]

hmm

alright lets see if its even portforwarding right

do you have wireshark on your pc

[full berry]

no but i can instlal it

[spare quartz]

yeah just scan for packets with the search filter tcp.port == 2000 and then try connecting to the domain on that port

[full berry]

just give me like 5 mins i need to get something rq, ill have it install tho

alr

[spare quartz]

this wiki page hasn't changed for 17 years

[proud creek]

why is it so big

[full berry]

ok im back

h

[full berry]

which one lol
https://cdn.astrohweston.xyz/u/e93b6cb7-2254-4630-90ed-3fb5a8bb57da.png

[spare quartz]

the one your computer uses for the internet

[full berry]

more of them just showed up

https://cdn.astrohweston.xyz/u/624840ee-bd40-4249-af36-7f3c8c1e8eaf.png

the top 4 have traffic like

wtfffffff

[spare quartz]

just use ethernet since that seems to be your internet

[full berry]

ok lets see

https://cdn.astrohweston.xyz/u/744543c1-f75f-47b1-a961-f2778c18c0e4.png

oh that's odd

i went to 192.168.8.128:2000 (which is my computer's local address) and it loads what it needed

if i go to my public ip:2000

i get some

results..

@spare quartz it's using different ports from what i can tell..
https://cdn.astrohweston.xyz/u/adefcdce-1df1-499a-93aa-1fe28046b6d9.png

[spare quartz]

uhhh

yeah it seems like the routers sending it right

the linux side just isnt responding. try a different ip from the wsl command

[full berry]

OH WAIT

[full berry]

are the 3 ip addresses like

if i have multiple distros

installed

[spare quartz]

i dont think so?

you can filter a distro using -d

[full berry]

wt

odd

okay uh

[full berry]

should i del the old one

[spare quartz]

if yo uwant

[full berry]

oki

[full berry]

added all 3 to port 80 and 2000, still nada

[spare quartz]

weird

[full berry]

rebooted my pc still nothing

i mean could it be the fw rule on windows

i did selct to allow all types of connections on all ports though..

ok i give up 😭

@spare quartz does this need to like... be on...
https://cdn.astrohweston.xyz/u/ced8425a-4c27-438b-8d2a-6abae688dd3d.png

[spare quartz]

i wouldn't recommend it

[full berry]

hm now its

https://cdn.astrohweston.xyz/u/c13016c2-993e-42b5-a4cb-6acc94c482fa.png

[timid quartz]

array (1 .. 2) of Unsigned_128, new mod 2 ** 256

[spare quartz]

bigintegers

honestly i'm not smart enough to understand this math

like ideally its simple but i just dont know how to write it out

[timid quartz]

goog

[spare quartz]

WAAHHHHHHHH

[spare quartz]

a story in two parts

this is what made me write my first ever computercraft code!!!

[spare quartz]

tag yourself

[spare quartz]

THIS IS A NEW LOW

THE ONLY SITE WITH MY PROBLEM IS IN JAPANESE

[full berry]

oh aeraaaa

[lavish dove]

lmao

[lavish dove]

the schools in japan use minecraft to teach java mixin and shit, so theres alot of stuff on minecrafti n japan

or atleast I think

lol

[spare quartz]

im doing really weird stuff rn

[lavish dove]

ew java

[spare quartz]

kotlin

[lavish dove]

ew kotlin

[spare quartz]

minecraft will crash if i load these native librarys the normal way so i have to use hacks to load them at runtime

[lavish dove]

oh damn

[timid quartz]

google translate I can't read allat

[spare quartz]

waaaaah

[spare quartz]

i have great news

after 5 hours of labor

breadmod now has full control of the JVM

[spare quartz]

alright

custom exception handler done

oops almost forgot one thing

there we go

now with extremely long exception message support

[spare quartz]

finally chaining exceptions

[lavish dove]

Physx is crazy

[spare quartz]

yeah i wanted to make a tool that spawns in rigidbodies

oldish image but it also supports suppressed exceptions now

[timid quartz]

@spare quartz boo

[spare quartz]

WHAT!!

[timid quartz]

respond on matrix stupid

[snow oak]

learning go

yeah

[lavish dove]

w programmer gameplay

[snow oak]

shit was HARD TO INSTALL

[timid quartz]

bruh just like

or even like winget install GoLang.Go in your terminal

but yeah go is a W language honestly

unlike SOME other ones @spare quartz

[spare quartz]

Aera Help Me

the guy who made the iron chests mod sucks at coding and made all file operations go through this stupid fucking "union" scheme

annoying as hell

[timid quartz]

I understood everything up to "sucks at coding"

[spare quartz]

and before you tell me off from having to load our mods code into our mods code im forced to due to mod class loader being awful

[spare quartz]

also sounds like you should use kot lin

[timid quartz]

Kotlin stinky

[timid quartz]

well…why are you modding in the first place

[spare quartz]

because we find cool ideas

yknow

breadmod used to have a riscv32 emulator i made at school

but i deleted it due to not replicating the arch well enough

[timid quartz]

@snow oak don’t listen to ATP, if you want to learn go then learn go

[spare quartz]

kotlin is pretty good though!!!

[timid quartz]

Go is better

No JVM

Goroutines

[spare quartz]

the jvm is a beatiful peace of work

[timid quartz]

Errors as values

[spare quartz]

and modern java has green threading which is effectively coroutines

[spare quartz]

jvm also has errors as values(*).

(at least more than ada does)

[timid quartz]

Nope it has exceptions

[spare quartz]

yes but it also has

Errors

:3

(the word you want here is Throwables)

[timid quartz]

Ok but that’s the equivalent of panic

Stop being so pedantic

[spare quartz]

no its not

[timid quartz]

Literally Richard Stallman

[spare quartz]

panic literally destroys the entire process

[timid quartz]

If a Java program sees an Error it’s supposed to literally die

[spare quartz]

which would be like System.exit

[spare quartz]

okay yes but

• errors are really only thrown by the JVM
• you can still catch them

[timid quartz]

You can also set your own panic handler that does nothing in rust

[spare quartz]

okay but thats totally different

thats like setting an interrupt handler in x86 everytime you expect an io error

[timid quartz]

Fine since you want to be stupid

[spare quartz]

IM PROVIDING VALID ARGUMENTS

[timid quartz]

You’re being annoying

You know what I mean

[spare quartz]

everything i've been saying is completely valid for exception/throwables in contrast to errors as returns

not stretching the definition

[timid quartz]

JVM does not represent “exceptional” program state as pure data, it totally interrupts control flow, sometimes without warning

[timid quartz]

You are being unnecessarily pedantic

[spare quartz]

how so

[timid quartz]

You knew exactly what I was criticizing when I said “the JVM doesn’t have errors as values”

[spare quartz]

it does though

it just doesn't encourage you to return errors as another class (or record or struct or...) like in other languages

[timid quartz]

The fact that the JVM primarily uses try-catch style exceptions rather than doing something like Go or Rust where you just return a different kind of value

You knew enough of what I meant to start being stupidly pedantic over it and correct me by saying “I believe the correct word you’re looking for is Throwables 🤓☝️”

[spare quartz]

that was an extra note i added in

wasn't an argument

[timid quartz]

Point being

Stop being Richard fucking Stallman all the time

[spare quartz]

and the JVM doesn't use try-catch either

[timid quartz]

Here you are being pedantic again

[spare quartz]

the reason exceptions are so common is because it's just agreed upon for implementors to use exceptions as they are more specific to the thing they deal with (possibility of error in a program)

it's not an intrinsic thing

[timid quartz]

“Erm the JVM doesn’t use exceptions it’s acshually the languages”

[spare quartz]

me being pedantic doesn't mean all my points are futile

[timid quartz]

When we all know that basically every common language that uses the JVM uses exceptions

[timid quartz]

I’m telling you it’s totally unnecessary to be this fucking pedantic

And rather annoying actually

[spare quartz]

i don't know how else you expect me to respond then

exceptions are the most-specific facility provided by JVM-compilable languages in comparison to just returning a class wrapper

this doesn't mean java is inherently bad for using them, as all exceptions you're supposed to handle are shown to you very clearly

[timid quartz]

This entirely spawned from me mentioning that Go has errors as values where as Kotlin still uses exceptions

I wasn’t even referencing the JVM specifically

[spare quartz]

we're still on that exact topic so i don't see why that matters

[spare quartz]

especially since the reason kotlin uses exceptions is due to its origins on the jvm

[timid quartz]

We were originally on Kotlin and you generalized it to the JVM when I was not referencing that

Nobody (sane) programs in raw JVM byte code, so the fact that “oooh actually the JVM doesn’t have exceptions” practically doesn’t matter since Kotlin and Java do

[spare quartz]

i never said the jvm doesnt have exceptions

[timid quartz]

Ok then “ooh the JVM actually has errors as values”

[spare quartz]

what im not understanding though is like, what are you trying to say about exceptions that makes them worse then returning an error "wrapper"

since they're the same effectively in a JVM oriented language such as kotlin or java, with more flexibility

just with different handling semantics

[timid quartz]

Then you could have asked that rather than start this whole thing with you being pedantic about exceptions and errors and throwables and the JVM

[spare quartz]

i've been saying that this entire time

[timid quartz]

No? You’re the one who originally interjected about the JVM having errors as values

[spare quartz]

correct

that is what i said

is effectively the big word here?

[timid quartz]

But the JVM itself, the actual VM, having errors as values doesn’t matter when the languages that you use implement the handling mechanism as exceptions

[spare quartz]

my big question here is how are exceptions worse than as-return-values?

[timid quartz]

The handling semantics for exceptions feel clunkier to me, exceptions feel “unnatural” in the code, literally “exceptional” state, which you could argue that they are, but having worked with Rust I vastly prefer having exceptions or errors or whatever the fuck name you want to be pedantic about being represented as normal data and normal program state feels a lot nicer

Additionally, while you can randomly panic or exit() in any program, exceptions are the primary mechanism for handling bad program state in Java et al., and unintentionally leaving them uncaught can cause your entire program to crash. Sure Java has to declare all the non-runtime exceptions which is good, but a runtime exception that you could feasibly could still be thrown with no warning, and yes this is a documentation issue but the fact is people don’t always write good docs, so it’s just another thing you might have to catch in production

Therefore the primary error handling mechanism in Java et al. leaves a lot to be desired imo

With Rust and other langs that do errors as values, you’re explicitly notified via the primary error handling mechanism that something could go wrong and you’re forced to handle it because otherwise you can’t access the underlying type that you want

In Go, not so much, but you’re still given an error as a “normal” part of the program

[spare quartz]

lemme go tackle this on a language level (Java) since there's no comparable analogue for rust (llvm doesn't count)

[timid quartz]

If you’re about to argue what I think you are, how the JVM and its bytecode handle this is nearly irrelevant to a programmer that doesn’t directly interact with it, and the original comment was made in the context of Kotlin and not the JVM

[timid quartz]

Just like how rust programmers usually don’t care about whatever the fuck llvm does

[spare quartz]

lemme write at lesat

[timid quartz]

Oh my god stop being pedantic

[spare quartz]

it is literally just a note

[timid quartz]

You and Richard Stallman should kiss

You’d make amazing partners for each other

Because you’re both insufferably pedantic

holy essay yapman

[spare quartz]

oh my god

i hate autmood.

you're still able to see that right

okay wow

i literally just cant show any of the psuedocode cause this automod is annoying

notepad then

[timid quartz]

Headers

Don’t use headers

It’s the headers

[spare quartz]

its the #?

[timid quartz]

And the small comment thing

Yeah

[spare quartz]

that's weird but okay

ill uh, prepend them in the future

[timid quartz]

Well because

[spare quartz]

ik ik its cause of the giant text

[timid quartz]

You could spam shit like this

Yeah

[spare quartz]

i thought it'd handle it being inside blocks though

[spare quartz]

but yeah theres my rebuttal and uh

hopefully i didn't lose coherentness

( i do that a lot )

[timid quartz]

I see what you’re saying

Personally I’d also argue against a giant try-catch block because what exactly failed can easily become unclear

Like if you call 5 fallible IO operations that all throw similar exceptions

[spare quartz]

thats fair, but thats what exception stack tracing is for

i didn't know what an analogue of that would be in rust so i didn't include it in the second example

[timid quartz]

Normally .unwrap() will include the erroneous line number

And column

[spare quartz]

ah

[timid quartz]

But ideally you don’t even need to use a stack trace because your issues are caught and dealt with at compile time

and then your program has how to deal with that error defined in the normal control flow

[spare quartz]

try/catch, at least the way i use it personally, is only supposed to handle completely unpredictable exceptions like an IO failure

if it's used to catch an NPE for example, that's bad design and just essentially letting you shoot yourself in the foot without a care for program integrity

(but java should have more in the way of safety to that regard)

[timid quartz]

Which is why I prefer Go and Rust because you can’t really resort to anything like that

“Do you want this function to possibly error? Express it via the type of the return value(s)”

[spare quartz]

the reason i suggested kotlin is that it's more similar to rust in it's scrutinization of error detection at compile time rather than runtime

[timid quartz]

There’s no distinction between “checked” and “unchecked”, just “fallible” and “infallible”

[timid quartz]

I’d argue Go is more similar because of the res, err := func_call(); pattern

[spare quartz]

well yeah that's not something i'll argue against

i just have more of a heart towards kotlin personally

[timid quartz]

Yeah cause you used it more

And you’re just a JVM-kisser anyways

CLR ftw

I love Microsoft

[spare quartz]

okay well when you write two of them it's kinda hard not to love

[timid quartz]

Go is also just drastically simpler

Like…that’s one of the precepts under which Google designed it

To be simple and easy to pick up yet powerful

[spare quartz]

fair

kotlin is more geared towards being concise than simple

[timid quartz]

Anyways go find Richard Stallman and take him out to a nice dinner before he dies of cancer

[spare quartz]

didn't he play a big part in gnu

[timid quartz]

the chief gnuisance

[spare quartz]

i hate gnu

ill kill him

[timid quartz]

but all of his drama is over him being needlessly pedantic

like u ❤️

[spare quartz]

just to be clear i wasn't aiming towards being pedantic at all during the conv

just trying to lead you into using the right terms so i don't get confused

im very stupid as you know

[timid quartz]

mm yes

become smart

use your brain for things other than :3

[spare quartz]

oh right

i have to get my ass beaten by the idiot who made this modloader

[timid quartz]

Nah fight back

Make the mod loader better

[spare quartz]

yeah you see i would do that

but the modding community on minecraft has a big problem of splintering every few or so years

and causing even more pain to the developers who actually make mods

so i would rather not contribute to that

unless you mean writing a PR in which i do not wanna touch that code with a 10 ft pole

i have no idea how they even made the urls automatically pick up a "union" scheme and would rather not find out why

im glad codev is getting great use out of this new interface though!

[radiant slate]

[spare quartz]

hi chady

[timid quartz]

ooo you know you want to make your own mod loader so you can understand even more how it works

[spare quartz]

yknow whats funny

i have an ada repo setup on my disk for that exact idea

[timid quartz]

dewit

[spare quartz]

ill do it one day.. for myself.. but not today

scpsl time

[timid quartz]

How about…more modding time

[spare quartz]

mrow

[lyric mesa]

the automod loves this thread

[timid quartz]

How about…you mod scpsl and get to know the CLR as well as you know the JVM

[spare quartz]

requires using elixir iirc

which is

[lyric mesa]

oh

[spare quartz]

👻 C#!!!!!!

[timid quartz]

katsumi check your DMs for more Omori

[lyric mesa]

https://tenor.com/view/omori-sunny-omori-kel-omori-hero-omori-basil-omori-gif-22516962

[timid quartz]

Better Java…

[spare quartz]

WORSE java

[timid quartz]

Better

[spare quartz]

actually wait why am i supporting java

i hate the lanauge

[timid quartz]

Does Java have uh

[spare quartz]

JVM on top

[timid quartz]

Implicit get and set

[lyric mesa]

what happens when you put script in front of java

[spare quartz]

it becomes a legal issue

[timid quartz]

scriptjava

[lyric mesa]

true

[spare quartz]

https://www.theregister.com/AMP/2024/11/26/cancel_oracles_javascript_trademark_deno/

[timid quartz]

Maybe you should study the CLR a bit

[spare quartz]

what is the clr

clear?? cmd ??

[timid quartz]

Common Language Runtime

What C# uses instead of the JVM

[spare quartz]

does it have a specification and is it an ACM

[lyric mesa]

must not be that common if we haven't heard of it

hehehhehehhehehe

[timid quartz]

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/standard/clr

[spare quartz]

programmer makes pun
asked to go amish

[spare quartz]

okay but like

is this a thing i can write or not

i am a poison

[timid quartz]

idfk I’m not the one who is interested in this kind of stuff

[spare quartz]

then why're you prompting it to me 😭

[timid quartz]

Use that website find the spec find out what you can do

[timid quartz]

Because CLR ❤️

[spare quartz]

if it's really .NET i can't do much of it in the way of learning

aside from just "using it like a normal language" which is booooooorrrinnng

[timid quartz]

.NET is open source dummy

[spare quartz]

okay yes but what does that mean exactly

like if you were to write a .NET runtime in, i dunno, lua

could you reasonably run IR C# code on it?

[timid quartz]

And if you’d even read the website

[spare quartz]

yes but you're missing the point

[timid quartz]

ATP you’re literally blind

[spare quartz]

i AM BLIND

[timid quartz]

It says it’s all defined in public standards

[spare quartz]

okay yes i get that aera

but it also needs to be an ACM that i can reasonably write

[timid quartz]

so like read them ik you love reading standards

[spare quartz]

otherwise you're asking me to write gcc

[timid quartz]

I never said to write it

I just said study it

[spare quartz]

you're... asking me to read it..??

[timid quartz]

You could study it by writing it or writing IR for it or just reading the standards

I’m curious what a smarter person than me thinks about it

[spare quartz]

hold on

[timid quartz]

After like studying it

[spare quartz]

okay this is something i can work off of

[timid quartz]

there u go

[spare quartz]

i can't just "read a specification" without writing something for it

[timid quartz]

ok so like write byte code idk

write whatever u want

[spare quartz]

wait

how do you think i even made my jvm in first place

do you think i just wrote the jvm bytecode by hand

[timid quartz]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

You probably stole precompiled Java

Or made your own

By using javac

[spare quartz]

i compiled .java files into .class and read that into the jvm

now what im hoping i can do here is

use whatever this document describes in a compiler to turn C# into IR

and then feed that into an ACM with... this "CLR" thing

but thats later since acms are crazy complex

you guys gotta stop polluting acronyms

[timid quartz]

heheh

[timid quartz]

what acm

what is

[spare quartz]

abstract computing machine

fancy word for virtual machine

but not a virtual machine explicitly since it could also mean an embedded chip or whatever

[timid quartz]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Intermediate_Language

boo

Go to the example part

[spare quartz]

mobile wikipeid a ,,1,1,

example..

yeah this is something i can do

[timid quartz]

[spare quartz]

but not now .

[timid quartz]

now!

[spare quartz]

i might be able to write a jvm in a week but this??

[timid quartz]

make scpsl run in it

[spare quartz]

i dont even know what 99% of this is-

[spare quartz]

scpsl doesnt have open source code and it runs on unity

[timid quartz]

boo…

still C# so still CIL at some level id imagine

guess I’ll HAVE to make the exe reader also be an exe loader

[spare quartz]

well

noooooottt a loader

you'd need to make a decompiler from .EXE into CIL which

really i couldn't even tell you how you'd do that

[timid quartz]

No no not to translate it into CIL

to make it run

[spare quartz]

oh?

is that serious or j

[timid quartz]

since you couldn’t make it run in any CLR you make

or rather CIL interpreter

[timid quartz]

idk yet I’d have to figure out how to interface with Windows’s loader and tell it to do things

or figure out how to load it myself

[spare quartz]

well lmk how it goes if you do it

[timid quartz]

ngl I have no clue where to start

[spare quartz]

depending on how much control you're able to allot you could intercept some of the library loading and make a faux-wine

[timid quartz]

oh I was thinking of being cheap and just screaming at the windows loader to do it all

[spare quartz]

isn't that basically equal to just like

System.Os_Lib.ShellOrWhatever("./...exe")

... weeeeeellllllll

that could actually be a fun project, loading a EXE/DLL file, and being able to run a function in it or using the start position if available

something like RunDll32

[timid quartz]

meh probably

I wanna see if I can talk more directly to the loader though

[spare quartz]

looks like you'll wanna link to IMAGEHLP.DLL

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/debug/about-imagehlp

[spare quartz]

no way

ancient code

#975913402453086228 message

[timid quartz]

@spare quartz there’s a pixel phone vending machine in the airport 😭

I could get an 8a for $399

Which is discounted

[spare quartz]

get it ....

[timid quartz]

I kinda want to T.T

[timid quartz]

Based

[spare quartz]

PHYSX WORKS!!!!

we had to pull a few hacks (this class is completely reflective) but it works

[timid quartz]

Hacks aren’t “bad practice” and don’t “make your code unreadable,” they provide fun challenges for anyone who works with your code in the future to solve

[spare quartz]

https://github.com/Bread-Experts-Group/breadmod/blob/1.21.1-neoforge/src/main/kotlin/org/bread_experts_group/breadmod/registry/item/actual/PhysXTestTool.kt

see lines 25-124 for classloader details

i don't think the codes harder to read as apart of the CL stuff we have to do, it's just... "weird"

[timid quartz]

Why does it need the self reference again

What platform is this even for, fabric?

[spare quartz]

its literally in the branch name

neoforge

[spare quartz]

when loading a class in a file (e.g. physx.PhysX) the JVM uses the classloader that loaded that specific class to load that class

because we cannot put our physx libraries in the mod classloader we have to make our own, then load the self reference in, and load the aforementioned class so it can use our classloader to see the physx stuff

[timid quartz]

Gross just use normal forge or fabric

[spare quartz]

... no??

normal forge was obsoleted in favor of neoforge by everyone

because the guy who made it acted like a dick and every developer left

and fabric is infuriating to develop for

[timid quartz]

At least you don’t have to do…whatever it is that you are doing

I thought fabric was supposed to be better to develop for anyways

[spare quartz]

no i'd definitely still need to do this procedure

[spare quartz]

its better initially but they don't give you much of anything to work on and the documentation beyond the simple stuff is crap (or nonexistent)

[timid quartz]

Just read the source code, the source code is the docs :3

[spare quartz]

thats not the problem

[timid quartz]

:333

Cmon if it’s ok for Ada

And Nix

[spare quartz]

"they don't give you much of anything to work on" means you have no source code

[timid quartz]

o…….h

[spare quartz]

you have to use the decompiled minecraft code

[timid quartz]

Ok there u go ^_^

[spare quartz]

which is annoying as hell cause microsoft just loves to do this thing where they scrub out all of the comments

and if you have no mappings/incomplete ones

the argument names also dont exist

ah yes please give me m_49324

m_14952 is surely good to use with m_53295

[timid quartz]

@spare quartz mfw

[spare quartz]

#1264496483957346346 message

those aren't microsoft written javadocs

those are community made ones which

• aren't complete 99% of the time
• are conjecture

just understand this isn't as simple as what it looks like on the surface

adding a block/item... simple, doing anything more? figure it out

ex.

but something like

totally untyped

(dynamic call sites dont even have the proper names)

[timid quartz]

b-b-but fabric…better…

[spare quartz]

i will beat you to a bloody pulp

https://github.com/Bread-Experts-Group/breadmod/blob/1.21.1/fabric/src/main/kotlin/bread/mod/breadmod/fabric/datagen/SmartModelProviderFabric.kt

example of poor fabric documentation: the models have no simplifications like they do in neoforge, just stuff that only a microsoft dev would know

[spare quartz]

anywyas uh

what was the doing again

Blaze3D?

[spare quartz]

hmm

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/coreaudio/wasapi

saving this here for a future project

(audio interception so my computer can use "bluetooth" without having a bluetooth card)

[spare quartz]

you tbh

[timid quartz]

LMFAO

@lyric mesa

[spare quartz]

oh god

liking one post

algos thinking my life depends on it now..

[lyric mesa]

that is aera

[spare quartz]

this answers based as hell

4th one is also based

[timid quartz]

@spare quartz should I host my own bluesky server

[spare quartz]

like

changing your handle or an ATProtocol server

hehe ATProtocol

:3

[timid quartz]

atprotocol server

like

a personal data server

[spare quartz]

sure if you can manage it

[timid quartz]

I don't think my hetzner vps has much more capacity left

between qso bot qiad bot and the matrix server