When starting out, is relationship with employer more important or money?

[mental quail]

Hey guys, I am in a situation where my employer is not wanting to pay my Australian super (American 401k) for this financial year, because he "doesn't have the budget for it", so he wants to take it out of my hourly pay. It's actually not a lot as it's around AUD 2500.

Anyways, from what I know, I am in the right in this situation in that he is obligated to pay me the super (on top of my usual pay), and that if he doesn't, I can file a complaint to the government for unpaid super by the company. However, I am hesitant to do that as I feel that would ruin the relationship with him, and given that I am starting out (2 yoe), with this being my first employer, I feel like ruining my relationship with them would be a bad thing to do (for my reputation, references, future jobs etc), esp as I'm on a visa not a citizen.

What would your advice be in this scenario (if he refuses to pay)? File a complaint or find a way to pay out of my own pocket (which I'm thinking through my next job salary)?

[muted gazelle]

My advice is I put myself over any job 100% of them time

I hold very strong beliefs about getting what I’m owed in a situation as how you describe things I would have no issue doing what it takes to get what’s mine

[mental quail]

and if getting what you owed and doing what it takes to get what's yours ruins a relationship resulting in negative future consequences for career, like less job opportunities from less references, less reputation etc etc?

would you still do it?

[muted gazelle]

in our field of tech i dont think this is an issue

ive personally never asked for a reference from a previous job in my life

and also, seeking the compensation you are owed is not a bad thing to most people

most people, i'd wager, would agree you are owed something and should get it, its not like you are suing or seeking money from your boss personally

its a company

its inherently not personal

[true owl]

Completely agree with Chris. Don’t let this business go back on what they agreed to pay you

[mental quail]

hmm...ok

[mental quail]

this is true

so like, when they say 'we don't have the budget to pay your super', what should I say? I am thinking of suggesting they get financial assistance and all...although personally I feel like $2.5k isn't really that much even for a small business...

overall I will think about and consider what you (Chris) and Heg said

[muted gazelle]

Yeah I mean just wanna be clear you aren’t a bad person for thinking about this the way you are

It’s very natural

But something my first boss told me was to advocate for yourself as much as possible because in the end it doesn’t come out of your bosses pocket and it’s not personal

[mental quail]

ahh my boss is the owner of the company...so i feel like it would come out of his pocket...but I guess the overall point remains the same of getting what is ours...

I guess there's two types of people in this world, like in instances where government demolish a resident building, or work related accident due to negligence, you could look to get what you are entitled to even if it would uncover complications, or you could avoid the possible complications that could arise from the process of getting the compensation and not get compensated. Play to win vs play to not lose basically.

I'll think about this, which path to take and all. Appreciate you guys advice too, as I think advocating for yourself is a good way to not get screwed over 😅

Also ig Chris what you said is true about references. So far I've applied to 60 jobs, only 1 asked for reference. Most of them focus on skills and yoe. I'm just hoping more like that employer won't like spread bad rumours like mean girls type of style but corporate haha...

[mental quail]

just an update here...I figured I'd take into account what Chris and Heg said about getting what is mine, but at the same time try to reach a win-win solution...so I talked to my boss said that I'd be okay with paying my super if he writes good reference letter and linkedin endorsement for me thus win-win...his initial reply was
I don't like being blackmailed bro I'll give you a good reference if you finish the project I asked you to

anyway I talked with him for a bit, he was like

If you want a better paying job you're free to apply elsewhere, but as you have now developed substantial (AI) skills, we'd like you to stay on working a few hours on the side for us while you're doing your new job, or help us with the transition for project continuity. 

However we want you to finish off the project you've been working on during your two years here, so that there is a end result.```

And I was like ```
Yeh I started applying in mid June so as to increase my finances, and I plan to finish off the project before I leave so that there is an end result to the effort put in, and I need to give one month notice after I accept an offer anyway plus applying for jobs takes a few weeks.

After I leave, I'd be fine with having an advisory role (helping with the transition), but with the working a few hours on the side for you in addition to my new job, I'll see how it goes with that.```

And he was like ```Ok I'm willing to shift your super to your last month when you get an offer and put in your notice, rather than take it out of your this month salary.

I'll also write you a reference letter for job applications.```

[true owl]

If the answer isn’t “I’ll pay you what I agreed to in your work contract,” I wouldn’t be satisfied

[mental quail]

It's more complicated than that...basically in my contract they put it in there that they don't have to pay me super, although I didn't know about it when I signed it.

According to the tax office , they said a few days ago that Australian law states that an employer has to pay an employee super no matter what, and country law overrides contract law.

However to win that case, I'd have to go through some claims court, which would take a few months...it would also sour my relationship with my boss which could lead to me being fired (and depending on how long it takes to find a new job, I could lose a few months pay which would exceed 2.5k, and also lose points on my visa as I get points for months employed)

So given I'm looking to leave and it's only 2.5k, and down the line I would prefer to have a good word of mouth reference from an ex employer for job opportunities if need be, so that's why I did what I did and just let it go.

Tbh my main concern rn is finishing up the project 🥴 will have to try my best to do it

[mental quail]

My boss did ask me to continue on the side with them like a side hustle, after I get a new job. I'm willing to help out with the transition phase (mentor my replacement a few hours a week for a few months basically), but I don't want to continue working there on the side as it's quite stressful...

So I don't have to do that if I don't want to right? As in it doesn't make me a bad person...Coz my boss did give me this opportunitiy and I have delayed in the project finishing and launching.

[true owl]

Unless you’ve signed something legally binding you to work on that project, no

[mental quail]

Nah I didn't sign anything that says I have to work on it after I leave, it's just guilt. Partly due to the delayed project launch, and partly because I figured the second phase of this project might have issues continuing and succeeding after I leave.

[true owl]

That’s not your responsibility if they’re not paying you fair compensation

[mental quail]

I value doing good work, building stuff of value, which is why I got abit emotionally invested/emotionally attached to the project.

Are delayed or unfinished projects a software engineers responsibility?

[true owl]

What I’m paid for is my responsibility lol

[mental quail]

So your effort? Lol

[true owl]

Im not sure what you mean? I’ll work on projects I get fairly compensated for. Idk i have never gotten emotionally invested in my work. It’s a job

[mental quail]

Like yeh we can work on (put in effort) on projects...then there's also the case of results of that project and whether the result meets management/client expectations...

Like sometimes the result is delayed in meeting objectives, or unfinished objectives, or maybe the results of the finished project isn't good enough to make money therefore making it a failed project...

All these can happen despite effort...so I was wondering whose responsibility that lies in 🤔

[true owl]

Well not mine if I’m not being paid lol

[mental quail]

I'm starting to see the benefits of that mentality lol...in the passion vs money dichotomy...

[candid drum]

If employers don't care about your time and commodify you and your work, placing emotional value in working for them is not it

[mental quail]

so how do you place emotional value in your work (like software engineering and building good software), while simultaneously not placing emotional value to your employer's work (which is the work you are working on)?

Also is the reason you say my employer doesn't care about my time and commodify me and my work, because they don't pay me properly/give proper compensation?

[fierce lynx]

depends what the contract says

if it says package inclusive of super then you might not have a case

its a dick move but might be legal

[fierce lynx]

definitely not by catering to unreasonable requests like finishing up a project and burning out lol

[fierce lynx]

if its not in the contract, then you should report to ATO for sure lol

[raw barn]

in tech industry this is a non-issue

ok read the rest fuck this guy fr

LOL

[fierce lynx]

very true. being asked for references seems quite rare

I'm from same country as OP so I think the employer might be legally taking the money out of OPs pay but yeah for the rest he's a massive dick

Who tf threatens bad / no reference if don't comply to some unreasonable proj finish even after putting in notice lol

Putting in notice is project handover time not project finish time

[raw barn]

I'd say it's common but like

you can just get other references

[mental quail]

yeh I asked the ATO and they said "nsw government law overrides contract law...doesn't matter what they put in the contract since you are an employee in NSW they have to pay you super"...the reason why I didn't pursue it is because the claims would've taken months to resolve and would've likely gotten me fired which would result in more money lost than 2k (while unemployed)...

honestly what I found even more distasteful was the fact he suggested that I change my Australian residential address on my past 12 months invoices, to my home country home address, so they can avoid paying me super...like I, the ATO, my housemate, my mum in my home country, all knew that is falsifying documents and is illegal, so I assume my boss would've known it too...but he was like "oh yeh doing that is totally fine just do it bro it's not dodgy at all"...

I felt like it's almost as if he was saying "I don't care if you get in trouble with the law as long as it doesn't hurt our bottomline"...

[mental quail]

tbh part of me feels guilty too regarding the project as it's been going on for 2 years, and I'm the only one working on the project...do you think as software engineers it's our fault if we leave a company with the project unfinished or if the project doesn't meet management expectations?

my boss emphasizes this with me that it's my responsibility to finish up the project because I've spent 2 years working on it...like he wants me to finish up the project have it meet his expectations to launch...

[fierce lynx]

tbh, just report it to ATO

you don't have to actually chase anything up. the ATO does it for you

you also cant get fired for that reason

[fierce lynx]

absolutely not

its on the employer to check the progress of the project or accept the handover of the project

not for you to complete it before you leave

[surreal wing]

my boss emphasizes this with me that it's my responsibility to finish up the project because I've spent 2 years working on it...like he wants me to finish up the project have it meet his expectations to launch...

So, take this with a grain of salt because I'm a fresh college graduate, but I'm also 30+ years old, so I've had a job or three.

IMO, a company's projects are the company's responsibility. Not yours.

If you got hit by a bus three minutes from now, and your employer couldn't finish a project because of that, that's (at least in part, if not entirely) that company's fault, not yours. You didn't ask to get hit by a bus. You didn't ask to be set up as the single point of failure on a two year project.

In addition, there's no reason you couldn't be fired tomorrow. The project certainly isn't your responsibility then, right?

Lets assume for the moment that placing 100% of the role of completing this project on one single underpaid (to the point of illegality) individual is a bad business decision. As was whatever lead to them being unable to pay you.

(Better business decisions could include a less ambitious project, not squandering money, hiring more people so that the loss of a single individual doesn't tank the entire project, and more.)

Is the business's bad business decisions your fault, or the fault of the person who runs the company?

If your boss can't afford you, your boss can't afford you. They have made sufficient numbers of bad business decisions or have a flawed-enough business model to result in them being unable to effectively run their business.

This behavior will likely continue.

Those are the kinds of businesses that (should IMO) fail. There's nothing wrong with a failing business; a business is a separate entity specifically so that its failure doesn't unduly harm the individuals who own/run it. If it fails, they're still going to have homes and food.

I felt like it's almost as if he was saying "I don't care if you get in trouble with the law as long as it doesn't hurt our bottomline"...

It's worse than that. It's "I want you to risk your neck for my business, so that my business can profit, and not only will you not see any benefit from it, it will actively harm you".

[fierce lynx]

i reread and this employer has not been paying your super for the current financial year? but im confused; does that mean they paid the super for your first year?

[fierce lynx]

also reread this and the ATO is correct, the employer should have been making regular payments to your super

quarterly is the max amount of time

it looks like they have purposely avoided the contribution as well and are aware of it

it is time to send a well crafted message about their requirements to the ATO

that is not blackmail, it is the law

ATO website itself recommends you msg reminding them of their obligations

[surreal wing]

So, I'm in the States, not in Australia, but I remember hearing about some form of odd situation (here in the States) involving an employer ducking financial/tax responsibilities. I'm likely going to misremember or badly describe something involving this, so don't take everything I say as the exact reality of what happened, but it was something like...

A company can either hire employees, where taxes can be pulled out of the person's paycheck to be automatically forwarded on to the IRS (the government tax office) for their eventual owed taxes (or the employee can opt to not do this, though that's rare), but in addition to these (income) taxes, there's also a payroll tax that the company must pay out of its own pocket for every employee.

A company can instead contract out ('hire') independent contractors where, instead, it's essentially a business-to-business transaction. The person contracted gets money, but any and all taxes are that person's problem to work out. (So contracts tend to pay more, but much more will end up coming out for tax purposes.)

Insurance is also tied to employment. If you're an employee, frequently businesses will have a plan they pay partly towards, and the employee pays partly towards. A contractor doesn't have this relationship. 401ks are somewhat similar as well, particularly if the company does any matching.

I remember reading about a situation where an employee suddenly discovered that their company hadn't been paying towards a 401k or insurance of some kind, despite being legally obligated to... and then got hit with a massive tax bill; apparently, in order to hide the fact that they were ducking financial responsibility A, they also ducked financial responsibility B and C, because fulfilling only one but not the others would raise red flags. Suddenly, the employee had a massive financial bill on top of a fight to get what they were owed.

If they were supposed to be paying for this ATO thing this entire time and weren't... how were they getting away with that? It's possible that maybe in Australia there are ways of doing that without raising red flags, but is there a risk that there's some other responsibility they have that you're not aware of and they're not taking care of, in order to dodge this ATO thing?

Who knows what might get uncovered by reporting to the ATO that is a ticking time bomb about to make your life difficult. Immigration status, perhaps? You mentioned a 'home country', any chance your ability to be in Austrailia is dependent on employment, and they're failing to report that you're employed (and thus risking your ability to be there)?

[surreal wing]

IMO, report this to whatever this ATO thing is and ask how they were able to not pay towards it regularly if they were supposed to be doing so and you work there. Other aspects of the government probably(?) know you work there, so... what gives?

[raw barn]

dude forget it

you're being exploited

you need to leave

[mental quail]

Hmm the business decisions part resonate with me...this project actually started a year before me, in 2020...the junior who was working on it left in 2021 because he 'felt overwhelmed and felt like this task was more suited for someone more advanced'...I was his replacement basically...

When I took over the project in June 2021 the model wasn't working... so by June 2022 I got the image to image translation model working well, but the results were in 256 x 256...and my boss was unhappy with that because professional retouching is usually done in 2048 x 1024 etc...

I mistakenly thought maybe adding more data was the way to go to add image detail etc...we didn't have a data pipeline so I had to build and test one, which brought the amount of data from 500 to 20,000 currently...

Turns out I was half right...adding data helped with cases where the model hasn't seen the pictures before, but it didn't really increase the capacity for HD pictures...

So I instead start focusing on improving the model capacity to generate high resolution pictures...in the meantime I also have to build the application around the model, so like backend and frontend...I've built the backend link to the model just have the frontend UI to do...

All this were done in the period from June 2022-June 2023, which is also when my boss cut my hours from 30 hr p/w to 20 hr p/w because of budget reasons...my boss had put a deadline of June 2022 for the project to be launched (meaning high quality results, front end, back end), so he basically blames me for it being 'x months overdue past his set deadline' and presses me to get it up to scratch to launch...

I'm currently working on making the model more high resolution and capable of structural changes, while also applying for jobs...

One of the obstacles to launch is my boss high standards...for example this is a enhanced result from a competitor in England who uses AI to enhance images...as you can see the flaw here, is that the picture is slanted, and the top right hand corner (on the walls) has specks of gray from camera dust...our model has this flaw too...

The reason for this flaw being that the AI doesn't naturally judge when a picture needs to be straightened, and it doesn't naturally identify camera dust detail that needs to be removed...

This is the human professional retouchers retouched version in which the picture is straightened and the camera dust is removed...

So my boss is uncompromising in wanting the human professional retouched version, which would basically take time to solve, as even our competitor (of whose team compose of more senior people), haven't solved it yet.

What I found funny was he always suggested I use this competitor as a frame of reference, but when I showed him that a few of the flaws he pointed out in my model existed in the competitor results too, he was all like 'oh but we have to be better than them because we operate in the professional photographer space while they are for the consumer ones'...

So yeh I definitely think lower standards and hiring more people deffo would've helped the project...

[mental quail]

Here are basically the terms of my contract...essentially it says they don't have to pay me super...which is where the conflict comes in

coz when I did the ATO super eligibility tool guided by ATO, I came up as eligible for super as an employee, but their contract say as a contractor I'm not...

they didn't pay super in my first year either no...

I'm not sure if it was because of some form of new laws or restructuring that they brought it up this FY...I'm not originally from Aus so I didn't know about super until this happened recently...

[mental quail]

yeh I feel that too...I've been applying for new jobs while working on this current job...I guess I just don't want to feel like I'm running from my responsibilities that's all...but yeh from this discussion I feel like my responsibility is to do the work (like Jira tasks) and handover the project, and that the project completion isn't my responsibility...which is good to know...job wise yeh I do want to leave and am actively looking coz this role is quite tiring and doesn't pay well...

[surreal wing]

Yeah, so I don't know if Australia is in anything like America, but if it is, you aren't actually employed by that company.

You employ yourself.

Even your contract spells out the same pitfall that exists in America: You have to handle all of your own taxes, even the ones that normally your employer would be paying. If this were America, it would mean not only that you have to do all of the math and calculations yourself as well as setting aside the money on your own, but it would mean you would have something around double(?) the tax burden.

But it also means that you work for yourself. You'll also note that there's a line in your contract that's specifically says you don't only work for them. Which means they expect you to be working for other people in addition to this company.

And they're asking you to match or beat the output of a company that has actual employees, plural, with a background in software engineering working on the same concept?

The owner of the company you are contracted with has unrealistic expectations.

At this point though, I have to say that contract work is completely outside of my wheelhouse.

Everything I've said has been with the assumption that you were an employee, and apparently you are not an employee.

I have no way of knowing whether or not there is a clause in your contract that would penalize you for quitting.

I have no idea if your contract has delivery requirements that you must meet.

I have no idea if your contract says that you will face financial penalties for failing to meet deadlines.

And I have no idea if Australia requires superannuation pay to be given to contractors. It may not.

In fact there's another line in that contract that specifically forbids you from portraying yourself as a company employee. Which kind of makes me feel like you're just a single name drop away from violating the terms of your contract here in this question, since you've been saying this whole time that you were an employee. Apparently by mistake.

Maybe someone else here has more expertise. It might be worth starting a new topic where you say something along the lines of "I'm in Australia and I misunderstood my employment relationship, and it turns out I'm a contractor. What do I do?"

But it really does feel like you need to go over all of the terms of your contract very carefully and start researching what some of the terms in it mean. Because I get the feeling you don't actually know what's going on with your career.

I'd hate to think you didn't take care of all of the proper taxes last year and haven't been planning for proper taxes this year, because it might mean you're a year and a half behind on actual taxes.

I should clarify, that in America there are situations where a person has been told they are a contracted entity, but because of the way the law works, they could actually sue and get classified as an employee.

One famous example of this I believe was Uber drivers. Every Uber driver was told they were a contractor, so certain employment protections didn't apply to them and they had to handle all their own taxes. But apparently if an employer has certain requirements (I think maybe the one that was in play here was that the company dictated when and where people worked?) it turns out that that made them employees regardless of any contract that was signed.

It's entirely possible that regardless of any signed contract, certain things your employer is requiring you to do make you an employee. But that's only something a lawyer can help you with. And it's entirely possible that the company in question is playing everything by the book and you are a contracted individual rather than an employee. I can't say which is more likely.

Either way, you might consider a brief consultation with a lawyer. Just to make sure you aren't screwing yourself over with any decisions you make.

[mental quail]

Yes, that is where I consulted the ATO (Australian Tax Office) for advice, and they had me go through this tool questionnaire https://www.ato.gov.au/Calculators-and-tools/Super-guarantee-eligibility/
...the answers are as below

What is the nature of the work arrangement between your business and the worker?
The worker is a contractor

Is the worker hired as your apprentice, trainee, trades assistant or labourer Link opens in new window?
No

Does the worker have an Australian business number (ABN)?
Yes

Do you allow the worker to pay someone else to do this work for them?
No

The amount you pay the worker is based on a:
Set amount per period
For example, you pay an award rate, annual salary or an hourly, daily or weekly rate

Who is responsible for providing the majority of the equipment, tools, motor vehicle or heavy machinery needed to do the work?
The worker

Do you pay your worker an allowance or reimbursement to cover their expenses for providing the tools and equipment needed to perform the work?
No

What does the worker need to bring to the workplace or worksite to perform their work?
Tools or minor equipment
For example, hand tools or minor equipment, computer/laptop, bicycle

Is your enquiry entirely about a period in which your worker was paid before 1 July 2022?
No

Is the worker under 18 years of age?
No

Is the work of a domestic or private nature for you personally?
No

Is the worker paid under the Community Development Employment Program (CDEP)?
No

Is the worker paid as a non-resident for work done outside of Australia?
No

Is the worker paid as a non-resident for work in the Joint Petroleum Development Area (JPDA)?
No

Is the worker paid as a foreign executive holding certain visas?
No

and the end result was that

Worker is an employee and you need to pay super

Today's date: 26 Jun 2023
Based on the information you have provided:

your worker is an employee for tax and super purposes
you need to pay super for your employee.
Difference between employees and contractors

This result was reached by applying the key factors the courts use to determine whether a worker is an employee or contractor to your specific working arrangement.

so the ATO basically said that based off that decision tool that from my circumstances, I am considered an employee for tax and super purposes, regardless of what the contract says...kinda like your Uber example...

Some background btw, this company was a company that our uni had our final year group project for in 2020...I did some AI work in that final year group project, and he liked it, and he was like...hey do you want to come do some work for us (in 2021)? And I was looking for my first cs job so just said yes and signed the contract...

[mental quail]

In regards to delivery requriements and financial penalties, this is my contract payment and services...

basically I get paid for hours worked

so an hourly rate, not for results provided

and as for quitting, as per the contract I have to give 1 month notice

I actually have mentioned that I work for this company multiple times, my boss never has a problem with it tbh...

this part does annoy me tbf ngl...when I signed the contract right, my boss said that he would increase my pay per hour as I got more experience...but it never happened even when I asked a year after...he was just like oh we have no budget...

anyway I'm just looking for like a good resolution and transition from this job to my next one...

[mental quail]

Btw when I asked as developer if project completion and success is our responsibility I meant more in general from a moral perspective...

Contract wise, my responsibilities laid out are just to do the tasks they assign to me and get paid per hour of my work...

I do other tasks too for this company like work on 2 other projects and do r&d, but this is the main project my boss prioritizes...

[tawny ibex]

if you got hit by a car and died, the company would just replace you.

personally, after working for a year, I think you need to value yourself and stand up for yourself. if you let yourself get pushed around, employers will happily do it

I think prioritizing having your needs met and work life balance is important
I'd definitely be looking for another job right now if this is how they treat you

but it never happened even when I asked a year after...he was just like oh we have no budget...
they usually never do that's why you bargain for more upfront. Every raise you have to fight for tooth and nail. but if you are expensive, at least who ever is in charge of hiring can say oh, we spent X hiring Y valuable employee

[mental quail]

Yeh I'd hold my hands up and say that I wanted to do good work in software engineering and build something good using AI and that might have blinded me to other factors...like having my needs met and work life balance...

So far out of 60 applications I've had 4 callbacks which led to 2 interviews...the first callback failed because they wanted someone who is an australian permanent resident...the second callback failed because they wanted people who was already living in that city and preferably who are australian permanent resident...out of the 2 interviews I failed 1 technical interview, and the second am waiting to hear if I proceed to next round...

Out of these 4 callbacks, 3 were backend dev positions, 1 was machine learning engineer position. All were 90k-120k positions + bonus + super. I notice that when my skills align well with the job position the likelihood of getting callback increase...omitting cover letter like Chris and Heg advised helped with volume too...

At work tho I can feel my boss tightening the screw...in the discussion about my super in June I asked him for a referral letter, so he knows I'm looking for a new job...and since then in two of our Monday scrum meetings I've mentioned 'this task will take a week until next Monday', and he was like 'I want to see good results by this Wednesday/Friday'...eventually after showing him bad results with his early estimate he oblidge to the original estimate lol...

I also did what xiong.chiamiov advised about documenting to dos and task progress and directing my boss to the task queue when he raised his issues with the project progress...and that helped too...

[tawny ibex]

I dont think you should be asking your current boss for rec

[mental quail]

yeh I'm not anymore

he initially agreed to give ref, but didn't end up writing it...so I didn't push it...