Rearranged SH282, an idea that became a mod, that we pester satiric for. *occasionally*

[shadow raft]

It just looks bigger for some reason.

Yeah

[ornate spindle]

I get around!

who knew that’s really easy here?

[shadow raft]

But a lot of the stuff for the custom tenders ends up merged with CCL, then the aux tender mod only needs to actually provide the auxiliar part.

After all, CCL will support tenders, and duplicating that over 2 mods when the aux tender already requires CCL too...

[ornate spindle]

I mean, making a coast to coast would be the framework for CCL custom tender support,

Thats basically half of steam locomotive support,

[shadow raft]

It's quite a mix.

[ornate spindle]

One half Steam engine support, other half tender support,

Makes whole CCL steam support,

[shadow raft]

Moving parts are actually available on all cars (handbrakes are part of it, for example, then doors, windows, controls...).

[ornate spindle]

That’s if custom tenders are made before CCL support steam locomotives,

[shadow raft]

Then the resources are part of locos. Tender ends up being a basic loco.

The thing that makes a tender a tender is then a very small part compared to the overall work needed for everything to work properly.

[ornate spindle]

Exactly,

[tender root]

hey we hit 4000 messages in this thread 🥳

[ornate spindle]

Congrats wiz,

[shadow raft]

Damn

[ornate spindle]

Thought it would have been me,

Ah well,

[silver prairie]

https://tenor.com/view/tedlassogifs-roy-kent-annoyed-eye-roll-cursing-gif-22468167

[shadow raft]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/737929230108852297/1078179155977441390/image01.gif

[olive sigil]

I had 800 tons out of the coal mine no wet rails and hit 50 kph with no struggle, only things you gotta watch for is wheel slip when you’re starting to move and wheel locking when coming down a hill

Super fun to drive

[silver prairie]

Yep

Did also had a panic stop when the loco brakes locked up at the wye outside of the harbor

[olive sigil]

My brakes aren’t glowing for some reason when I’m using them for extended periods idk if it’s my settings or what but other than that the wheel slip and locking goes crazy

[tender root]

At least I get the 4014'th message

[ornate spindle]

I don’t get anything these days,

I mean apart from this mod,

[tender root]

you got your high speed berkshire too

[ornate spindle]

Wait when was that added?

[tender root]

this update

[shadow raft]

Brakes not glowing on the loco or auxiliary tender?

[ornate spindle]

Ah,

[olive sigil]

Loco // cars for me idk about the aux tender

[shadow raft]

If it was a tender it's a known CCL bug, fixed for next version.

[tender root]

Whenever I try to do this my game crashes lol. At least it's repeatable

[silver prairie]

Hmmm,

[gusty kestrel]

sorry for the late reply, but actually, lanterns don't seem to fall off too easy of where they are put, I actually figured out that the normal valve gear collision still exists in the same spot, and I normally run with a lantern there anyways, and the lanterns dont seem to fall off of that

[silver prairie]

what happens if I shove a Blahaj into the reg of a 4-0-4

[gusty kestrel]

(couple of screenshots with lantern shenanigan)

[tender root]

probably still crashes is my guess. I've disabled the 4-0-4 by making the pistons 0 inches in diameter, but it's still got all the simulation

Oops, accidentally made a 100 MB log file

notepad is handling it surprisingly well

[shadow raft]

https://tenor.com/view/awesome-ok-great-good-thumbs-up-gif-16351183

Even when I accidentally printed all of DV's meshes multiple times it was just under 10MB.

[tender root]

Somehow a bunch of transforms go bezerk and I get infinite NullReferenceExceptions from UnityEngine.Transform.get_position_Injected ...

[gusty kestrel]

after about 1,000 tons from farm to food factory, and then half that from food factory to Machine factory....

[silver prairie]

On one tank?

[gusty kestrel]

ye

with the duplex

[silver prairie]

lmao

[fading sun]

WAIT IS THE DUPLEX OUT

[silver prairie]

in public testing yes

also the duplexes is just straight upgrade for the s282 lol

[tender root]

Here's the files #1129933975406784552 message

[inland garnet]

oh my god im so excited to fuck with this with the full release

[gusty kestrel]

hehe, Im fixing to do the lightest run yet: 130 tons to harbor

[silver prairie]

hmmm,

Tomorrow I'm going to try doing a 1700 ton train with the duplex

going by the theory that 1200 tons x 1.5 = 1800 tons

[gusty kestrel]

I got a little overzelous coming onto the mainline.....

And i figured out that in decreasing my shadows setting from ultra to very high, the gear light can illuminate the entirety of the valve gear

[tender root]

interesting

[inland garnet]

only the rear set of poppet is animated

[tender root]

Ok WTF how did I never notice that

I swear that worked before. I'll take a look

[silver prairie]

Same

[tender root]

you all have an excuse, but I've been looking at this thing for months haha

[shadow raft]

It's easy to lose sight of what is right in front of us.

[silver prairie]

Huh?

the front is animated

[inland garnet]

what

[shadow raft]

lmao

[silver prairie]

also does anyone else like the sound of the s282 duplex?

bloody thing is loud as fuck

[tender root]

I'm biased but I like it too. It can sound a bit strange when the exhaust pulses sync up but it's neat to hear the staggered pulse

[shadow raft]

So always let it slip, got it.

[proper turret]

Yo can we pin the file link here?
Or put it in the mod news channel?

[tender root]

it will go in mod news once it's out of beta

hopefully later tonight

[proper turret]

Nice

[tender root]

unfortunately you have to be a mod to pin things (even the creator of the thread can't pin posts)

[proper turret]

Ah darn

[plush kraken]

articularted s282 when?

[tender root]

a long ways away. I can't see any reason it wouldn't be possible, but it'd take a long time

[plush kraken]

yay

[past flower]

Is there any specific way of sorting the Mesh splitter, or do i just put it into the UMM like the rest of the mods?

[tender root]

nah just drag it into UMM; it will automatically figure out the dependencies

[mellow yacht]

What the tractive effort for the 2-4-4-2?

[silver prairie]

Here

[mellow yacht]

thanks

also totally didnt make the front set of drivers wheel slip at 100kph on the 2-4-4-2 just now

whoops

[olive sigil]

What happens when wheel damage gets to 0 hp anyway ?

[regal tendon]

Question, will there be an option to replace the valve gear with the default gear on the duplexes in the future?

[tender root]

probably not. The main reason for using Franklin valve gear was so that I didn't have to animate Walschaerts

[regal tendon]

Understandable

[gusty kestrel]

what would the possibility of the wheel arrangements that currently have their valve gears hidden being modified to use Franklin?

[tender root]

Could be possible with a bit of work. The pennsy converted one of its Pacifics to Franklin B2 if I remember right

[tender root]

Forgot to mention, you should be able to reload saves now and have the mod still work. Is that working on other people's installs as well?

It'll still randomize the wheel arrangement, I'm looking into fixing that for a future release

[shadow raft]

I recently learnt how to also inject data into the save file without causing much problems, you could do a similar thing.

[tender root]

Yeah I was just gonna copy the way Skin Manager does it

[shadow raft]

lol

[silver prairie]

2-4-4-0 duplex?

[ashen coyote]

0-4-4-0 when?

[ornate spindle]

2-4-4-4 when?

[gusty kestrel]

....

[ashen coyote]

6-4-4-6 when?

[ornate spindle]

Probably would need to make the driver’s smaller for that,

[manic estuary]

Btw how does adhesion work with tractive effort? It is important only in acceleration from stand still/wet tracks after rain, correct?

I.e. low adhesion basically lowers effective tractive effort in those cases?

[vagrant tendon]

Its also important in uphill climbs

[manic estuary]

Looks like leading wheels nuke adhesion

[crude prism]

Does the 4-0-4 actually move in its own or is it just a meme?

[ashen coyote]

it does move from what i have seen in game

[vagrant tendon]

Adhesion factor is locomotive weight on the driver wheels divided by tractive effort, so if you have leading/trailing wheels thats less weight off the drivers

The downside to no leading/trailing wheels is it takes less speed to derail

[tender root]

Does it really move on it's own? It should be able to roll down hills but it shouldn't be able to actually make any power

But I might have screwed something up

[ornate spindle]

So it’s a bomb on wheels?

[shadow raft]

It's the ghost of mods past

[tender root]

Essentially, yeah lmao

[silver prairie]

S282 or S060 with inside cylinders?

[tender root]

Gonna have to do inside cylinders for some of the S060 arrangements, since there's just not a lot of space on that thing. Hadn't considered it for the S282 though

[gusty kestrel]

The S060 looks like it would make a fun 4-4-0

[proper turret]

Hey quick question can u add the 4-0-4 to the rearranged mod please 🙏

Asking for a friend

[tender root]

it's already in

[proper turret]

Oh

Thanks

[vagrant tendon]

installed the rearranged 282 mod for the first time, but when i use the laser pointer to change the locomotive and hit confirm, nothing happens. i already have the mesh splitter installed, is there any way to fix this?

[tender root]

Can you post your log file?

!log

I guess the command still doesn't work in threads but it's in %AppData%/../LocalLow/Altfuture/Derail Valley/player.log

[vagrant tendon]

standby, log too large for direct upload

[tender root]

oh you can probably just send the first chunk of the log. I bet something was spamming the log every frame

[vagrant tendon]

define 'first chunk'

[tender root]

Scroll down until the log is clearly repeating itself, then delete everything past that

[vagrant tendon]

NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object at DV.Simulation.Cars.DrivingForce.FixedUpdate () [0x00000] in <dada6c6fa778466988cb5a66bbff0984>:0 was being spammed

[brittle glade]

thats just some bad wheelslip on your front drivers lol

i also have the exact same three mods for those GUIs lol
DV Utilities (i think), heads up display, and no cable mu
all very cool mods

[vagrant tendon]

if you are able to figure out whats going on, is there also a way to get different configurations to randomly spawn in the world?

[brittle glade]

i believe they already do, or atleast they all are 4-4-0s lol

[solid elbow]

That can be done in the mod settings afaik

[tender root]

By default, the wheel arrangement is randomly selected when spawning in an S282 (although there's a setting to make them all spawn as the vanilla S282)

I'm looking into it, it's not a bug I've seen before

[vagrant tendon]

could it also be due to me being in career mode?

[brittle glade]

you did say it wouldnt let you change wheel arrangments

the issue causing that might actually just be making those not exist

[gusty kestrel]

This has actually happened to me on a couple of occasions

[tender root]

the bug that ae is talking about?

[gusty kestrel]

yes, I had to restart game to get it to work again, but yes.

[tender root]

Can you send your mod list?

Want to compare it to ae's

[gusty kestrel]

sure

rq, is there an easy document that has that, or should I just write all the one I have active down?

[tender root]

you can send a screenshot of unity mod manager

[vagrant tendon]

could you already see mine from the log

[tender root]

yeah

[vagrant tendon]

kk

[gusty kestrel]

I know I was messing with dumbs282tweaks when it happened last

mostly trying to select the other kind of deflectors

[tender root]

AE doesn't have that

[gusty kestrel]

huh.

Imma load up the game and see if I can get it to ghappen

[tender root]

would have been a good suspect though, I didn't have it installed at the time

[brittle glade]

dumbs282tweaks does mess with the movement of the pilot on locos like the 0-10-0

but

idk about that

[silver prairie]

wait really?

[tender root]

It shouldn't affect the pilot at all

The only mod that modifies the pilot is Loco Mesh Splitter as far as I know

[gusty kestrel]

... my game is stuck at 93%....

this happened last night and I didnt think to mess with it.

[tender root]

Can you send a player log?

[gusty kestrel]

I had to alt+f4 out, I tried setting the sandbox to standard.

[tender root]

This looks like an Aux Tender bug to me

[gusty kestrel]

huh.

im disabling it and trying again

[tender root]

you can post about it in #mods-support-and-bugs . I think I remember seeing a bug like that a few days ago?

[gusty kestrel]

alright

[silver prairie]

Ya that was me

[gusty kestrel]

This absolutely is. I disabled it and managed into a new standard sandbox save, then i reenabled it and did the same thing, and it is stuck loading again.

alright, now that one mod bug has been reported, let us see if we can get the desired issue to pop up

...

in trying to recreate the bug with rearranged s282 in one of the ways I remembered it having happened, I managed to have the dumbs282tweaks mod do the same thing that the aux tender mod had done

[vagrant tendon]

@tender root restart seemed to fix it

[tender root]

hmm that's what Xandrine said as well

[vagrant tendon]

unsure if this has anything to do with the bug, but that same locomotive i tried changing, when i ran it like normal the damper didnt seem to work

like it ran as if it was fully open all the time

[tender root]

This is probably because the duplexes have 1.5 times the draft of the vanilla S282, so it's gonna draft hard no matter what you do

Should work like normal on the non-duplex engines though

[vagrant tendon]

that would probably mean the bugged 282 weirdly had the duplex performance profile on it, despite me selecting to give it the 260 configuration

[tender root]

hmm I'll look into it

Which do people like better? First image is with one set of tanks scaled up by 20%, second image is the standard sized tanks, but two per side

either way visibility is just not gonna be a thing lol

[shadow raft]

Scaling probably.

The steps on the side being duplicated looks kinda odd, especially in the middle.

[vagrant tendon]

gotta say now that im set up for the mod im absolutely loving it

[tender root]

Or something like this

[tender root]

Glad you like it!

[swift island]

That is one awesome train, can't wait to see

[tender root]

I will say it's a long way away. This is the very start of a long process

Still trying to decide what will be in the next update

[tender root]

What if I got rid of the steps?

[manic estuary]

How much water it should carry approximately?

[swift island]

Probably not as much as an S282 but not as little as an S060

[manic estuary]

You can clip mulple of those

For low profile

[shadow raft]

Honestly with it going up in the middle it may still look odd but ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[manic estuary]

I.e. make them low and stack inside each other

[tender root]

Hadn't decided. Was gonna start with "however much it visually holds" and go from there

[manic estuary]

And leave final to be curved as usual

Main question is how much water would this thing end up. And god forbid somebody tries TANKER DUPLEX

[tender root]

Hmm, not bad

[manic estuary]

Nice

Can you still make window to be usable?

[tender root]

not really

[manic estuary]

Otherwise this one is probably the best

[tender root]

Could also just bite the bullet and model a new tank

[manic estuary]

Hm. Can you clip them into the cab itself?

[tender root]

I mean I could

[manic estuary]

Also not like this visibility is any better

Than this

[shadow raft]

It really needs the 2nd trailing wheel for the tanks.

[manic estuary]

2-8-4?

[tender root]

yeah would make the extra trailing axles actually useful

[manic estuary]

Can you shift center of mass in-game as well?

[shadow raft]

That should be possible, it's an empty object in the hierarchy.

Probably named [center of mass]

[manic estuary]

Oh btw, where do you plan to make coal storage?

[shadow raft]

Auxiliary coal only tender

[manic estuary]

On the back of the cab 0-6-0 style?

[tender root]

I think it calculates the center of mass based on the resources. So I would just add a Resource Container in the right place and it would calculate the correct center of mass

[tender root]

yeah would be using the S060's bunker

[shadow raft]

I used that [center of mass] trick to also shift it on the Big Boy Large Lad, so it wasn't leaning to the front so much.

@tender root I think there's a reference to it in one of the sim components, if you already have a reference to that.

[tender root]

Well there's also the TrainMassController in TrainCar, which is what I was looking at. But yeah either way the changing mass would be simulated correctly

[tender root]

Even the S282 by default has a changing mass depending on how much water is in the boiler and how much coal is in the firebox

[manic estuary]

So it looks like this tanker should be 2-8-4 or 2-10-2 by the space available

Oh firebox weight is actually calculated?

Nice

[tender root]

Steam weight isn't calculated for some reason

the weight just dissapears as soon as the water turns into steam lol

[shadow raft]

https://tenor.com/view/magic-gif-26166638

[manic estuary]

After it does its job in cylinders?

[tender root]

No, after it boils in the boiler

but before it goes into the cylinders

[manic estuary]

Ok thats odd

[tender root]

at least I think that's how that works

Not really a big deal

[shadow raft]

TrainCar.centerOfMassOverride I think.

[tender root]

Maybe they didn't want to figure out the weight of a pressurized gas

[shadow raft]

Technically wouldn't the weight not change?

[manic estuary]

Yes it should not

[tender root]

yeah the water would only leave through the stack, the cylinders or the appliances

appliances? appertanences? well, the dynamo and the air pump

[shadow raft]

The thingamabobs

[vagrant tendon]

honestly thats sick as hell

even if they dont have steam weight yet the fact theyve gone this far is great

[quiet bobcat]

@jovial iris

!log

[vagrant tendon]

maybe its because ive only used 440s and 460s so far but it feels like they consume way less water than they should, and generates a ton more steam than it can use

like even during uphill pushes with damper down the boiler pressure never goes below 13 bar

and during level pulls the overpressure valve is going off continuously

[tender root]

The four coupled and six coupled arrangements have the same cylinder size as the default S282. So they use the same amount of speed per rotation of the wheels. The bigger wheels rotate slower, so the arrangements with bigger wheels use less steam.

Not sure how I would fix that to be honest. I don't want to have to scale the boiler size or anything like that

[manic estuary]

Btw, compound duplexes are possible in-game?

[tender root]

Possible but would require a lot of work

[manic estuary]

So it isnt the hard requirement for all pistons to operate on the same pressure

[tender root]

Nope. You'd just connect the exhaust of one set of cylinders to the inlet of the other set of cylinders. At least I think it's that easy

[manic estuary]

No, I mean in-game

I know how marine triple-expansion steam engines worked, and some european double-expansion steam engines for locomotives

[tender root]

That's what I mean. The simulation is very modular so I think it would be basically the same as the duplex simulation, only with the front cylinders getting steam from the output of the rear cylinders

[manic estuary]

Wait they have output in-game?

Probably for blowout

[tender root]

yeah the cylinders have an input pressure and temp, and an output pressure and temp. Nah the cylinder cocks are separate

[manic estuary]

Oh thats interesting

Surprising devs bothered to model it

[tender root]

I guess they wanted to calculate the airflow through the exhaust correctly, so that the draft is vaguely correct

That's why at slow speeds, the fire gets brighter with every chuff

[manic estuary]

And because this is ancient tech, I assume both sets of cylinders had separate regulator control

[manic estuary]

Yes I noticed that

[tender root]

No, one regulator into both cylinders

[manic estuary]

So just some linkage conversion?

[tender root]

Yeah in-game, the throttle is just a linear interpolation from 0 psi to boiler pressure

although I was thinking of making a mod that introduced a delayed throttle response, like you see IRL

[manic estuary]

Oh btw I meant how it was on duplexes and such

And especially on multiple expansion engines

Irrc Big Boy had no separate controls for example

Not a duplex but close enough

[tender root]

Oh I see. I don't actually know if there was a secondary throttle or not. On compound expansion engines, to some extent the slip is managed automatically without touching the throttle. If the high pressure cylinders start to slip, the pressure in the receiver pipe will increase and the pressure differential across the HP cylinders will decrease, automatically decreasing power on the rear engine and increasing power on the front engine.

[manic estuary]

So natural regulation

[tender root]

Yeah. IDK how well it actually works in practice, but that's the theory

[manic estuary]

Seems like at least Y6 had no separate regulator or reverser but I'm not familiar with american steam loco controls well enough

I'm always underestimating how much automation you can get with mechanical systems

[tender root]

Did a little more googling; I'm not sure any locomotives ever had more than one throttle (although now that I've said that, someone is bound to come up with an exception)

[ashen coyote]

well, if we are posting Cab interiors, here the majority of a Victorian Railways K class 2-8-0

[tender root]

I knew Australia was upside down, but I didn't think it was mirrored left to right as well

[ashen coyote]

we drive on the British, proper side of the track, so yeah xD

[tender root]

fair enough lol

[ashen coyote]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-4TZYge1as here's an old video you might like

currently in heavy overhaul at the Newport Workshops near Melbourne, where i volunteer sporadically

while the context is that of a Driver Training run, it is easy to see this also also being a good example of a typical branchline working at any point in Victoria's history

[manic estuary]

Was pretty sure brits still reserved right side for engineer

[ashen coyote]

depends on the railway company

[manic estuary]

Because most stockers are right-handed

[ashen coyote]

here in Aus, each state essentially ran their own company, so each state did things their way. all states drive on the left hand track in areas with 2 or more tracks, but the location of the driver varies

hell, some locomotive classes of the same state could vary too

[past flower]

there truly is something special with Australian locomotives. Cant put my finger on why, but Australian locos give me the same vibe as my Swedish locos.

[ashen coyote]

mix of different standards? particularly in late steam-early diesel, there was a good variety of America/British/local designs for Steam, and mixes of EMD/Alco/EE power for diesel, depending on the state

[past flower]

yeah. Sweden definetaly had a major EMD influence once Diesel traction became a bigger thing. NOHAB and EMD worked closly together. Also in the case of early Swedish steam, there was a strong British influence, as the go to company for engines between the 1850s to 1870s was Beyer Peacock, Sharp Stewart, and many more. 1860s to 1900s where a mix of German influence, and own development. late Swedish steam was very refined and standardised. some engine would be upgraded to fit Swedish standards and loading gauge. for example, SJ purchased a couple british Diesel electric locos (Similar to the BR class 11) from English Electric. they where delivered in the same shape as all the other british shunters, but not long after they were sent to the SJ workshops in Örebro, where the cabs were widened to fit the loading gauge. English Electric never had a big impact, definetaly compared to EMD, only those two where ordered, and from what i know, both happen to be preserved.

[past flower]

oh yeah, those. werent they basically a narrow gauge version of the above diesel?

1067mm gauge?

[ashen coyote]

Victoria is on 1600mm Irish Broad

[past flower]

ah, ok. i got them mixed up with another similar looking loco, which ran on narrow gauge. Broad gauge is pretty epic. are those locos still outside framed? i guess they had to be built with a widened framework?

[ashen coyote]

don't really know, sorry

[past flower]

ok.

[past flower]

on the subject of Australian steam, and in this case narrow gauge. i found this interesting image on the Swedish National railway museum archive site. apparently taken 1892 of an incident at the Zig Zag Railway

[past flower]

I have a question regarding the recent update of the mod. As i read, and found out for myself, the more wheels a locomotive has, the more difficult it is to derail. i havent managed to test each individual arrangement, but is there/ could there be a chart for the max reccomended speed per wheel arrangement. took a train with a 0-8-0 arrangement and came off a curve in a 60 zone while running at least 50 km/h.

was a bit of a surprise at first, but i quickly remembered why.

[plush kraken]

no
compund steam locos did not have a second reg,
they could be adjusted to change how much exhast came through but they didnt have an accesssible secondary throttle while running
also so most of the steam came through to the second cylinder set it didnt really need to have the reg anyway

[solid elbow]

but they didn’t have an accessible secondary throttle while running
That implies they did have a second throttle, presumably outside of the cab?

[plush kraken]

and the front set of drivers were the ones that would slip first

[plush kraken]

it was normally inbetween the exhast outlets

but not accessible while the loco was running

[solid elbow]

Interesting

I guess it regulated how much steam was admitted to the second set

[regal tendon]

Don't know if this would be possible but, I'd like to see a saddle tank like what a lot logging mikados had

[vagrant tendon]

A rearranged 060 mod is also in progress yeah?

[solid elbow]

https://youtu.be/OYdH9FNU2GQ?si=M8g6qKrGesdZtajJ

Logging railroad

[ornate spindle]

Slowly.

[solid elbow]

They have one of these chonky saddle tank mikados

[vagrant tendon]

Fair

[ornate spindle]

More accurately eventually,

[solid elbow]

12 drivers on a 060 yes please

[ornate spindle]

I believe satiric wants to work on the locomotive mesh splitter,

After that, I’m pretty sure the S060 will come next,

[solid elbow]

Btw, Idk how the hell they did it but they managed to slip all of the geared engines

Shay, Climax and Heisler

The slipping is at the very end of the vid

[manic estuary]

There is something even better

[ornate spindle]

How about we don’t put 12 drivers on a-

[manic estuary]

What about... 0-4-6-0

[solid elbow]

Yes, put a S060 body on the frame of an AA20

[manic estuary]

I.e. duplex S060

[solid elbow]

S0140

Not articulated

[manic estuary]

AA20 isnt even this big

[solid elbow]

It is

[manic estuary]

There are at least 2 american locos that are bigger

[solid elbow]

Le chonk

[ornate spindle]

All is this but the 2-4-4-4 is out of the picture

[solid elbow]

Side note, it was actually so long it derailed on anything resembling a curve

Meaning it could run only on straight track

[ornate spindle]

I bet the second the track wasn’t levelled it would derail,

[manic estuary]

I actually dont even know from where this claim goes

[solid elbow]

The claim comes from physics

[manic estuary]

Yes but apparently UP 9000 is fine despite being as long

and not articulated

Actually nevermind 9000 is larger, at least 20t heavier

(metric of course)

[solid elbow]

The UP had more straight track tho

[manic estuary]

Not like rail network past Ural mountains are bended at all

It wasnt economical to run this thing instead of FD, thats more of a problem

Later articulated P-38 was deployed exactly in Siberia btw

[ornate spindle]

The gun?

[manic estuary]

The plane

[ornate spindle]

YIPPEE!

[manic estuary]

Now, to be serious, this thing

It isnt pretty

There is video with it

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ru/transcoded/4/4d/Паровоз_П38-0001_на_выставке_и_с_поездом.webm/Паровоз_П38-0001_на_выставке_и_с_поездом.webm.480p.vp9.webm

From wiki

It looks like something from new Wolfenstein reboots

[past flower]

didnt Satiric write on the mod page that this arrangement wont be done?

[solid elbow]

I don’t know

And also that was a joke

[past flower]

ah, ok.

otherwise. it didnt seem much like a no. IMO, it wouldnt look too realistic with the s282, but considering the creation of the mesh splitter mod, then it could be possible.

[tender root]

Max recommended speed per wheel arrangement would be tricky, since it would depend on how tight the corner is

[past flower]

that is true.

[fading sun]

Lies

[tender root]

Just pushed a small update. The steam consumption was way too low and the brakes would lock up twice as easily on the duplexes as they should, but both of these have been fixed. Let me know if you have any other problems

[nova cove]

i wish i could donate but my pockets are empty

[nova cove]

2-6-6-2 when?

[vagrant tendon]

Thx big man

[rich steeple]

Wait thinking about it now couldnt we make more custom made valve gear types?
Like baker and caprotti?

[plush kraken]

yes

but satiric didnt want to animate too much and franklin was the easiest from memory

[rich steeple]

well they could probs get supports to help with that

[plush kraken]

that might take a bit
and hard to do with selecting, like through coms radio or config option

[manic estuary]

Imo, what could be done is:

Player can select 10-15 sets of arrangements in selector outside the game

Which could allow for more to be added, without cluttering radio that much

Ideally that external tool might provide some short historical trivia on some of them, and for what they can be utilized

But thats quite a lot of side work

[manic estuary]

Older mod loaders might work, actually

I.e. non-Unity one, I dont remember its name

I used it for Silent Hunter modding

[tender root]

Caprotti is very similar to Franklin B2, it would be hard to tell the difference.

[vagrant tendon]

Hyce had some fun with the steam bug from last patch lmao https://youtu.be/W67JgkVeOfY?feature=shared

[manic estuary]

Not exactly related to mod but to steaming in general

Did any of you tried to INTENTIONALLY push through brakes at 1 bar set to build up pressure while running?

Because forced draft via cylinder exhaust is way more powerful than blower

[rocky swallow]

on compounds having separate regulators was actually very modern

most only had a starting valve

[manic estuary]

What benefits it had?

[rocky swallow]

uhm... that is factually incorrect if you count all compound locos

[rocky swallow]

being able to run both HP and LP separately when starting or running in depots

[manic estuary]

So they could just disable one set?

[rocky swallow]

was not used a lot but it could be useful if the locomotive encountered a catastrophic failure of one set of cyls for exemple

[manic estuary]

Oh course it is french

[rocky swallow]

and to not have too much condensate on the LP

[rocky swallow]

i mean in terms of compounds we were the ones using the most :p

the 2nd reg was coupled with a simpling valve actuator that allowed both HP and LP to run fully separately

[tender root]

That's neat

[manic estuary]

Why engineer on the left side

[tender root]

Cause the brits told them to do it that way probably

[rocky swallow]

first locos we had were imported yes

[manic estuary]

Brith themselves used right side...

[rocky swallow]

originally france was very late in locomotive construction

[rocky swallow]

considering the side where locos run it makes sense to have it that way

which makes it weirder considering as far as i know they also drive on the left track in britain?

[tender root]

Apparently they used both https://www.national-preservation.com/threads/left-or-right.17979/

[rocky swallow]

also the regulator wasn't the only independent piece between HP and LP, the cutoff was also very often independent

[manic estuary]

Wait french railroads are using left hand traffic?

[rocky swallow]

yes, except Alsace-Lorraine

independent cutoff made very visible by the presence of two reversing gear

[manic estuary]

Does it apply to SNCF still?

[solid elbow]

I do sometimes, but to get the brakes glowing and the reduced braking power so I have more precise control over speed on long downhills

[manic estuary]

I just use ind for precision

Well unless I have 2000t monstrosity behind

Problem with overheating brakes is they take X2 wear if they are red

[solid elbow]

When I do hauls from IME or CM down to SM I use that tactic to have more precise control specifically with locos with non self lapping brakes

Because adding a fraction of a bar reliably isn’t easy, nor is it precise

[manic estuary]

Non-self lapping are precise enough by themselves compared to self-lapping

Which work on preset valve positions

[solid elbow]

With self lapping I can add one notch, that’s not easy to do with non self lapping

So I add 1 full bar at reduced braking

[manic estuary]

Actually the main problem with NSL which I only noticed now with S060 is they leak a lot

[solid elbow]

Wdym by leak?

[manic estuary]

For example, if you remember that screenshot near north MF junction

While I was rebuilding steam pressure I had to operate brakes at least 3 times

Because they leaked from my 3 bar set to 2 and train started to roll back

And they did it quite fast

Self-lapping just keep their pressure stable at all times

You can try it on level ground

Just set any NSL loco to any pressure and look closely at pressure gauge

I guess it is realistic, I just never payed attention to it

[ornate spindle]

I’d kill for the SH282 to have a fire box like that

[plush kraken]

Ah yes because I know every niche case of locomotive
Most of them did not

The alleghenys were compounded but did not have a second reg

[pseudo jungle]

the alleghenies were simples

[plush kraken]

I read they were compounded

That's why they had the massive rear cylinders for the LP steam

[pseudo jungle]

all 4 cylinders are the same size

[plush kraken]

Y6b

Aren't they alleghenies

[pseudo jungle]

y6bs are just y6bs

[plush kraken]

Or is that a different ones I'm think of

I know y6b's were compounded

[pseudo jungle]

yes

[plush kraken]

With no second reg

[pseudo jungle]

mallets do not have two regs

other types of compounds can

[plush kraken]

There are other types of compounds?

[pseudo jungle]

mhm

mallets were the only popular type in the US that actually lasted more than a decade

but in europe there were other types

there's also vauclain compounds in the US, which use 2 cylinders per side mated to a common crosshead

[tender root]

There's also the UP 9000 class, which were three cylinder engines

[pseudo jungle]

the mikado i'll be putting in game once CCL is ready is a vauclain compound

[pseudo jungle]

those are simples tho

there were 3 cylinder compounds in the US, baldwin 60000 is one of em

[tender root]

huh I didn't know that

think I read that and forgot

[pseudo jungle]

generally we didnt do 3 cylinder compounds over here

[ornate spindle]

Thing of beauty,

[rocky swallow]

yep, it does

[rocky swallow]

no, but they can have a filling valve

or atleast i'd hope most did

[rocky swallow]

yeah, rigid 2,3, and 4 cyl compounds existed too

(and 6 but that was a one off)

[tender root]

From what I've seen it seems like 99% of US mallets had a simpling valve/starting valve/emergency valve/whatever else they happened to call them

The literature I have says that Baldwin called them starting valves (cause you were supposed to use it whenever starting a heavy train) and Alco called them emergency valves (cause you were supposed to use them only after trying to start it with the engine in compound). It also says that for Alcos, the reducing valve always lets a bit of HP steam into the reciever pipe until the reciever pipe is charged up by the exhaust of the HP cylinders

[plush kraken]

But they are still compound engines with more cylinders?

[manic estuary]

Btw does game engine simulate air resistance?

[tender root]

like, aerodynamic drag? No

[manic estuary]

Well not like we are running trains in the Valley at speeds where it does matter

[quiet bobcat]

ahem

[rocky swallow]

yeah, just not mallets

you probably know that but mallet's patent was for two trucks and separated LP/HP sets

[rocky swallow]

yes that would be the most used system

a valve to just send steam to the LP without any kind of "real" simpling gear to have them running independently

[tender root]

So the Alco style is more common?

My book just says that alcos have that last feature with the automatic receiver pipe charging, it doesn't say if baldwins have that too

[rocky swallow]

if you consider Mallets being the most common design, then yes

but (without) a real simpling valve the one used commonly in france is objectively better... but more complicated

[rocky swallow]

another compound system for exemple would be the De Glehn type, with LPs inside the frames, forward, and the HPs outside but placed a bit further back

[tender root]

What did france do?

[plush kraken]

behead some people

[solid elbow]

This

[tender root]

Oh I see, you might not need a simpling valve if the reciever pipe is super short and all the cylinders are right next to each other

[rocky swallow]

The De Glehn system added a valve between the HP and LP groups to send the exhaust from the HP to the atmosphere and have the LP get its steam from either a 2nd regulator or a "normal" valve located in the cab

so this way when starting the groups were independent, and the HP was not limited by the backpressure in the receiver

[tender root]

Oh I see, that makes sense. As long as you can live with the more complex valve, seems like a neat solution

[rocky swallow]

then when the locomotive would start moving the valve would be returned to its normal position, and steam would start flowing normally from boiler->HP->LP->atmosphere

[tender root]

yup

[rocky swallow]

yeah france was a bit avid with controlling the compounding of their locos

and it was noticed that starting the engines independently really helped with startups

[tender root]

Makes sense; that's when you need the most power

[rocky swallow]

yeah

i had reference for how the valves looked, it makes much more sense when you see one

[tender root]

After doing so much 3D cad in college, I do not envy the old school engineers having to do everything in 2D

[rocky swallow]

yeahh, especially with how intricate everything was made

[tender root]

All the old school diagrams look like gibberish until I really take the time to study them

[rocky swallow]

when i started with them it was a mess too

but now with a bit of engineering background and my love for them it's such a joy

[gusty kestrel]

Yea, they were originally compound, and then later modified to simple, wich let the 2156 to run well into the 80's before being completely retired from service.

[manic estuary]

What is 060 driver size?

[past flower]

if it is to scale with its basis (USATC s100) they should be 1,372 mm in diameter (4ft 6 inch).

[manic estuary]

So x-12-x S282 drivers are actually smaller

[past flower]

possibly, havent checked.

[tender root]

The S060's drivers are exactly the same size as the S282's drivers, if I remember right

[manic estuary]

So 56'

[tender root]

yeah

[gusty kestrel]

....

then why doesnt the S060's speedometer go up to 120kph???

[manic estuary]

Because it is 060?

It is prone to derailing on higher speeds on curves

Because, well, no leading tracks

[gusty kestrel]

oh. so deterrence to not get up to high speed and risk derailing

[tender root]

Rearranged S282 seems to be broken for me: comms radio doesn't work, so you're stuck with whatever arrangement it spawns in as. Can anyone confirm?

[olive sigil]

Happens to me sometimes too

[halcyon sonnet]

Appears to have happened to a number of mods - comm radio got some changes it would seem.

[silver prairie]

Ye, likely because of BE2 being added.

[quiet bobcat]

Nah likely because of internal changes

[vagrant tendon]

Looks like an issue with the comm radio specifically, nico foxx put out a fix for it https://www.nexusmods.com/derailvalley/mods/813

[tender root]

OK, new update should fix things

No need to update Loco Mesh Modifier, just Rearranged S282

[tender root]

IDK why but I have never been able to get Paypal to just work. If you've donated and are wondering why the donation hasn't been accepted yet, I'm waiting on their customer service...

[vagrant tendon]

Oof

[tender root]

BTW Rearranged S282 was also broken due to some changes in wheelslip simulation. So you might feel some changes in wheelslip

[manic estuary]

Different derail speeds for 0-x-x/2-x-x/4-x-x are calculated natively by the game itself or it is a custom code?

I'm mostly interested if it is possible to do high speed car sets for 4-x-4 and similar locos

[tender root]

custom code

[vagrant tendon]

this update didnt really fix it, however when paired with the comms radio api mod above it now works

[manic estuary]

Yes, it works fine now, both randomly generated S282 with different arrangements and radio comms work as intended

[upper spade]

is the tractive effort of the duplex doubled compared to the "simplex" with the same driver size?
and what are the different driver sizes? (all wheel arrangements)

[vagrant tendon]

From the mod page

[upper spade]

right, I forgot that was a thing... simple solutions DO exist.

[vagrant tendon]

rearranged 282 mod seems to no longer work if i load a save any time after the initial load. game restart is only a temp fix

[tender root]

Thought I fixed this but I guess I didn't. I'll take a look

[short void]

I did notice that too but usually restarting the game and loading what save I was going for works

[vagrant tendon]

@tender root any progress?

[tender root]

Been busy with other stuff (like getting COVID...) but I'm hoping to fix that bug in a few days.

[vagrant tendon]

Oof, hope youre able to recover quick

[ornate spindle]

Don’t worry, seeing how you’re the only person working on this, you set your own deadlines.

[short void]

When?

[shadow raft]

That extra connecting rod at the back

[tender root]

might do it when I get around to articulated arrangements

[tender root]

This should now be fixed in the newest version of Rearranged S282, v1.2.8

[vagrant tendon]

Dope, thx

[manic estuary]

@tender root can you reach Cypress-Ik727 about that style of menu in their mod (s282 chinese restyle)? It looks like it will fit Rearranged like a glove

[tender root]

Hmm I could. I was looking into it a little a while back. Does this kind of menu work in VR?

[manic estuary]

Idk I cant really check it

[tender root]

Well I can't check the source code because the git repo is too outdated...

[vagrant tendon]

ill check here in a minute

[quiet wave]

hey satiric, idk if you've caught my message in #mods-support-and-bugs
and i guess this is more appropriate place for that info anyway.
I've tested the Loco Mesh Splitter under Linux, to check if it will extract meshes without manually running commands.
All meshes get extracted automatically, so Linux/SteamDeck don't need the workarounds anymore.
You can remove my workaround video from Nexus, and tell Linux people to use the same install steps as Windows.

I guess you could leave the workaround info in case someone wants to install an old version?
But I think it's more confusing for the majority of users, then it is benefitial to the few who would need it, at this point.

[tender root]

Is it the same for Rearranged S282 now?

Changed Rearranged S282 to use the same process as Loco Mesh Splitter in the newest update

[quiet wave]

the same in what way? Rearranged s282 is no longer responsible for extracting meshes i thought

since it depends on loco mesh splitter to do it

[tender root]

Rearranged S282 still extracts the brake shoe mesh

not sure why I didn't move that over to Loco Mesh Splitter actually

[quiet wave]

oh, i didn't notice that.
Well the original problem was with how it chained multiple extractions.
It was always successfully extracting the first command.
So if it extracts only one thing then that one thing completes without issue

[tender root]

ah interesting

Well thanks for doing all the linux testing

[quiet wave]

and loco mesh splitter is able to chain extractions fine, with the method that it is using

out of curiosity. What did you change in the way you send those extraction commands?

between old S282 Rearranged and the loco mesh splitter extraction methods

[tender root]

Originally, I needed to call assetstudio from a command line, since I was trying to call a 32 bit executable from a 64 bit program (which isn't possible in C# for some reason). So I needed to run CMD, then run assetstudio within the command line.

The assetstudio folks now distribute a build that is (a) 64 bit, and (b) includes the .net runtime. Which is perfect for what I need. So I'm just including that, and running AssetStudio directly instead of running it within CMD

[quiet wave]

oh so it's not a solution for the CMD crust breaking under LInux.
It took a dependency of yours to release a more compatible version, which just let you throw the problem out along with the CMD crust.

[tender root]

yeah

The best way would be to include the assetstudio code as a library and access it directly, but the API isn't documented and I couldn't easily figure out how it worked

[quiet wave]

I would've tried to look at other mods that use that library then. But i guess since they just released a 64 bit version, maybe there's no such mods yet

[tender root]

The only other one is the gauge mod. But the dev just did it by hand and got special permission to release game assets in the mod, which wasn't something I wanted to deal with

[vagrant tendon]

doesnt look like it does, mainly cause in order to access it you need the equivalent of desktop's 'alt' mode to access, which vr doesnt really have nor need

[tender root]

I see. That was what I was afraid of

Wonder if this mod works in VR https://www.nexusmods.com/derailvalley/mods/831

I wouldn't be able to use it for rearranged S282, but I could use the method that it uses

[vagrant tendon]

maybe if the menu was tied to a selectable in game clipboard it could work, could function similar to the map and its quick travel implementation

[manic estuary]

Can it work on Custom Items mod base?

[vagrant tendon]

have it where each 282 spawns with its own clipboard

[tender root]

would probably be easiest to use Custom Items, and add controls like the remote control

[vagrant tendon]

@mellow ocean figure you might wanna be part of this convo

[manic estuary]

And link it to the loco like remote?

[tender root]

Or just point to it like with the comms radio

[manic estuary]

If it is possible then it might be in the form of an actual document

[quiet wave]

There was a mod suggestion for an item with a touch screen, like a tablet form, that basically replaces the comms radio.
And what you're talking about seems like it would fit as one of the screens using that mod

[quiet wave]

Oh i meant mods for games other than DV. I think AssetStudio is used in mods for other Unity games?

[tender root]

Oh I hadn't thought about that

[rich steeple]

I was actually wondering really quick if we would ever see an 0-6-0 s282.

[lavish nacelle]

lmao, just updated to newest and saw the 4-0-4

question, why ?

[tender root]

Someone suggested it and I thought it would be funny

[tender root]

I think it would look a little strange unfortunately

[ornate spindle]

Honestly,

I could settle for a 2-6-0

[tender root]

that would also be a little strange IMO

[ornate spindle]

With larger drivers.

[ornate spindle]

Do we have a 2-6-2 then?

[lavish nacelle]

also, what is up with the valve gear on the duplex ?

why the spinny shaft ?

[ornate spindle]

It is the same valve gear that will be on the New T-1

[ornate spindle]

Either satiric didn’t want to model a new type of valve gear, or it wouldn’t fit, or he just wanted to model something else

[tender root]

It's Franklin B2 valve gear. Chose it because it was interesting and easier to animate than Walschaerts

[ornate spindle]

yay! I got it right!

[tender root]

It was put on the Pennsylvania Railroad's 5500, and it will be on the new 5550 once that's completed

[ornate spindle]

woah! Bonus points!

I’m happy I’m not spreading misinformation.

[ornate spindle]

https://youtu.be/4fELZGD0ED0?si=8tld0-fm6SyD2a3p

[tender root]

That's the exact video I used as reference lol

[ornate spindle]

Ah,

Great minds!

[tender root]

The crosshead gets in the way, so either you have normal S282 wheels super far apart, or you have a massive gap between the cylinders and the first driving wheels

[ornate spindle]

Not too sure what the T-1’s original valve gear is

[tender root]

Most had Franklin type A, 5547 had walschaerts

[ornate spindle]

Ah,

Would Franklin type A work on other wheel arrangements or only 0-4-0?

[tender root]

Could theoretically be put on anything. I'm not a massive fan of it though. There's essentially a box under the boiler that contains a miniature version of walschaerts, so it was a pain to maintain

[ornate spindle]

Ah,

[silver prairie]

What does the Franklin type A look like?

[tender root]

This is the thing that's in the way (ignore the chinese crap lol)

[ornate spindle]

How do you remove that?

Can you even remove it?

[tender root]

Can be moved with the mesh splitter I guess. But a 0-6-0 with massive drivers doesn't make a whole lot of sense

[tender root]

Doesn't look like much from the outside

[ornate spindle]

Oh I just mean a 2-6-2

For people that want a challenge.

The train goes faster then the normal 2-8-2

But it pulls less,

And that speed can also cause you to derail faster

[tender root]

would be the same physics as the current ten wheeler

[ornate spindle]

Ah, it just wouldn’t be that different from the 2-8-2

Just aesthetically one less driver

I mean, for people who want it.

I don’t.

[tender root]

The front drivers also clip

through the air tanks

[ornate spindle]

Huh.

Never mind then.

I would say something like “move it” but where?

You could tuck it behind the piston.

[tender root]

Could find someplace for it I guess. I want to work on other things though

[ornate spindle]

Or on the running board.

[ornate spindle]

Nah don’t add it then.

I didn’t want it.

[rich steeple]

Fair. I was kinda thinking of an insurer cylinders but yeah.

[ornate spindle]

That reminds me, what are you planning on working on next?

[tender root]

I think boosters but haven't committed 100% to that yet

[ornate spindle]

Ah,

That was literally going to be my suggestion.

“Sheer power”

But honestly?

What I would suggest?

Working on the “extended” the boiler.

Or just the firebox.

Mainly because fitting a two axle booster under the current S2-8-2 would feel off.

And if you ask me having even a normal One Axle booster would only barely fit

[tender root]

Was gonna start with tender boosters

[ornate spindle]

Ah,

I guess those are more well known aren’t they?

[ornate spindle]

I wouldn’t,

[tender root]

tender boosters are rarer I think, not sure though

[ornate spindle]

They seem daunting,

[tender root]

well I've already started it lol

[ornate spindle]

Ah,

Well then.

[tender root]

It's not really much harder

[ornate spindle]

Not much I can say now.

[ornate spindle]

You’re making an originally non movable rolling stock move.

[tender root]

The tender is already a locomotive according to the game

[ornate spindle]

At least with the S282 it could be like the duplex’s, using more steam, and stuff.

[ornate spindle]

Huh.

Forgot about that,

Well then.

I really don’t have anything to say.

[tender root]

it's actually going to be easier than adding a second set of traction simulation to the S282, like I did for the duplexes

[ornate spindle]

If you think you can do it, go for it. Any grave obstacles that I could think of are non existent.

[regal tendon]

You can try and make the drivers a bit smaller
I think they look a bit weird being that big tbh

[quiet wave]

I tried to use the 0-12-0 for an empty run from HB to SM. I've managed to derail it 3 times before leaving the HB

It has derailed going 40 through a switch with a speed limit of 70.
It's more fragile than eggs.
Somehow it didn't explode just laid sideways on the track a few times

I guess it's a sleepy loco

I've given up trying to run anything 0-x-0 and changed that s282 into the duplex

[tender root]

Dang that's crazy

Could buff it if you all wanted. I kinda like that it's only good for shunting though

[quiet wave]

Yeah I like it like this too.
I knew it would be prone to derail from reading this discord, but I just never experienced how unwieldy it is

[tender root]

As you might have guessed I spend most of my modding time developing, and very little time play testing lol

I didn't put much thought into what values to choose for the derailing

[quiet wave]

I think pushing it to accelerate makes it derail more than it would at the same speed but idle

[tender root]

interesting I didnt know that

[quiet wave]

Could be placebo

[lavish nacelle]

my sounds a bit buggered

[pseudo jungle]

if you need a model for one i would be glad to help

i need to do one anyway for a loco im planning

[tender root]

That would be very helpful! Seems like the franklin boosters are all pretty similar, regardless of whether they're on the tender or on the trailing truck

[pseudo jungle]

tender truck boosters have side rods, dunno how hard that would be to implement

[tender root]

Side rods are easy, you make em children of the wheel, and then rotate them in the opposite direction. No need for animations

[pseudo jungle]

ideal way would be just replace the entire truck tbh

[tender root]

yeah that could be done

[ornate spindle]

I mean you could make both of the trucks boosters, or do you only plan to make just the one?

[tender root]

Just the one

the front

[ornate spindle]

Ah,

So like most booster tenders,

[pseudo jungle]

if i were you id also include the associated piping, could be done with an additional mesh

[tender root]

Don't think anyone ever made both boosters

yeah that's the plan

[pseudo jungle]

i could model that too if i had the s282 body mesh to work around

[ornate spindle]

Pretty sure satiric has one of those laying around

[tender root]

If you've got Loco Mesh Splitter installed, you've already got the OBJ 🙂

[pseudo jungle]

i do not have that installed yet

will go do that

[pseudo jungle]

i only know of one example

[tender root]

wack

[ornate spindle]

That’s actually surprising..

[pseudo jungle]

i believe this engine specifically was used in helper service

[tender root]

The pipes will also have to be routed around the duplex stuff

[ornate spindle]

Compound with booster?

[pseudo jungle]

probably end up doing two seperate piping arrangements then

for tender and trailing truck boosters the piping on the loco end is 90% the same which makes life easier

[ornate spindle]

I mean you can also have the pipes overlap slightly,

It’s all steam pipes.

[tender root]

Oh I was just gonna do tender boosters to start

[pseudo jungle]

for the trailing truck booster i would honestly reccomend just making an entirely new trailing truck model

which i can do

im not familiar with how the trailing truck is set up on the s282 but it looks like it has no frame

[tender root]

yeah it's tricky because there's more or less room for the tender booster depending on which wheel arrangement. And of course there are arrangements with two rear axles. Yeah the frame is integrated into the S282 mesh

[ornate spindle]

It doesn’t.

[languid badge]

That could be an idea: Stupid-powerful s4-4-4-4 duplex, with both front and rear trucks on both the engine and the tender boosted

[ornate spindle]

I mean, I would love both.

[tender root]

I don't think anyone ever did front boosters

Too much of a pain to work around the existing cylinders

[pseudo jungle]

nop

[languid badge]

TBH, I kinda just want stupid but entirely OP meme arrangements of the s282 wheels

[pseudo jungle]

yeah but that looks lazy

[ornate spindle]

There is always room to polish,

[languid badge]

But I lack the skills, the patience to learn the skills, and the time to make that happen myself

[tender root]

BTW I was thinking of just exhausting steam at the booster, rather than running it back up to the stack

[ornate spindle]

I usually dump whatever is in a playable state, and polish it overtime to keep people entertained.

[pseudo jungle]

I could model trailing truck frames for both 2 and 4 wheel trucks if there's a way to set them up

would improve the look of things a lot imo

[languid badge]

Another meme idea: Make the 404 move on boosters alone, lmao

[ornate spindle]

Question, will there be full tender boosters?

[tender root]

I don't know yet lmao

[ornate spindle]

Aka boosters on both bogies?

[ornate spindle]

Ah,

I would suggest it,

[tender root]

I am aware, you already said so

[ornate spindle]

It would allow wheel arrangements with lower torque to have a fighting chance up a grade

[pseudo jungle]

I'll start working on the tender booster model when I get home and ig we can figure it out from there

[tender root]

That seems reasonable. The timeline is long on this, I've got a lot of simulation stuff to figure out with the booster still

[pseudo jungle]

boosters are only supposed to be used at low speeds, they tend to grenade themselves above 25 mph or so

engaging it at high speeds should have some sort of repercussion imo

[ornate spindle]

Will that be simulated?

[tender root]

I'm hoping to

[ornate spindle]

Make it damage the tender more

Wheels and body,

[pseudo jungle]

I'd say include some sort of signage in the cab near the starting valve to make it clear engaging the booster at high speed will grenade it

[tender root]

Please don't make demands. I still have no idea what's gonna be easy and what's gonna be a pain in the ass to do.

[ornate spindle]

Sorry! I didn’t mean it as a demand!

That was worded wrong,

[tender root]

Not a bad idea

[languid badge]

TBH, that does sound like a good idea, however, for the sandbox mode funny times, I would like for the option to be able to toggle this feature (if it does indeed get added) to at least be explored

[pseudo jungle]

at high speeds it has little to no effect anyway

[ornate spindle]

could also just make it instantly derail,

[pseudo jungle]

boosters are most effective when starting a train and to avoid stalling on grades

[tender root]

In game it probably would help because it's hard to simulate the restriction of a steam pipe

[pseudo jungle]

yeah true

[languid badge]

Not trying to be demanding or anything, but I would lowkey love to just be doing high-speed runs around the DV map with a boosted s404, running off boosters alone, lmao

[tender root]

Lol I forgot that a booster on a 404 would work

[languid badge]

||In case it wasn't already clear, I'm largely here for the fun times and the memable opportunities||

[ornate spindle]

Me Either, I'm just throwing around ideas, and concepts that would be easy to implent.

[pseudo jungle]

generally tender boosters produce around 300HP and 10-15,000 lbs of tractive effort

trailing truck boosters are around the same power

if the S282 has about 50k lbf of tractive effort that would be a 10% increase in power while the booster is active

[ornate spindle]

10% is a big deal!

[languid badge]

I think, since the 404 is a meme arrangement already, it might be a good testbed for the boosters, (as well as maybe one for super-boosters)

[tender root]

That's what I was thinking, and yeah it seems reasonable. More like 20%

if it's 50K for the S282 and 10K for the booster

[ornate spindle]

Super boosters?

[languid badge]

Was about to say 20%, but IDRK too much about how that stuff works

[languid badge]

Boosters that are most likely unique to the 404, that allow it to go dummy-fast

An entirely meme variant of the boosters

[ornate spindle]

I wonder what wheel arangments will have the boosters

[tender root]

The document I have says that the Franklin C boosters shouldn't be cut in above 12mph, and shouldn't be used above 21mph. Which works out nicely to about 20kmh and 30kmh

[languid badge]

Why do that? Why not? The 404 already exists, and tell me you wouldn't laugh at seeing a large steam engine like the s282 come flying past without any drivers, pulling a fully loaded train

[pseudo jungle]

another thing to keep in mind is most boosters aren't reversible

[languid badge]

I will admit, this should be bottom of the priority list, being entirely meme in concept, but I would still love to see it

[tender root]

With the tender booster, it's easy because I can just have two arrangements for the tender: boosted and vanilla. With the trailing truck boosters, it's tricky, and IDK how the UI will work

[ornate spindle]

Oh I did mean for the trailing trucks.

I assume the only wheel arrangements that would work are the 2-8-X, 4-8-X, 4-4-X, and 4-6-X?

[tender root]

The UI concerns are why I was planning to just do tender boosters. There's also not a lot of room for a trailing truck booster in a lot of the arrangements

[languid badge]

For the 404 meme variant super boosters, why not make them reversible? They already don't exist IRL, and are so far into the realm of fiction, what's one more little thing?

[tender root]

The booster has no reverser, you'd need to add a reverser somehow

[ornate spindle]

Ah, you could only just make variants with wheel arangments that work

[pseudo jungle]

The booster sits behind the axle on locos with one, so it depends on how close the tender is really

[ornate spindle]

mainly those, I can't see any other wheel arrangements would fit.

[languid badge]

Given that this would be a meme variant, why not just say "screw it, it works because it does," like Star Trek did with phasers, so people wouldn't come after them like "Lasers can't do that"

[tender root]

There's a big wall in the way that prevents you from going too far back, I guess we could get rid of it with loco mesh splitter

[pseudo jungle]

ohh the aprons weird ok

[tender root]

Well you need a way to tell it how to go in reverse...

It's not exactly optional, if you want to go in reverse

[ornate spindle]

There is at least some room, even with the apron.

Not sure if it’s enough for a four truck.

[pseudo jungle]

not for a 4 wheel truck

[ornate spindle]

Yeah,

Shame, that’s the one I wanted the most,

[languid badge]

Meme variants, imo, allow for creative freedom because you don't need to obey the laws of phys... oh, you do... huh

[tender root]

Would definitely be a problem for the 4-8-4 and the x-10-4

[ornate spindle]

Honestly I’d just keep it with the 2-8-X

Unless you want to slip the second axel behind the piston,

[tender root]

The other tricky bit is all the linkage for the tender booster steam pipes. Cause the booster rotates relative to the tender, and the tender rotates relative to the engine

the exhaust side can be simplified, it can just exhaust at the booster, but the intake side is a bit strange

[pseudo jungle]

what i did for a roblox loco with a booster is just make the piping static, it looks a little weird cus it just clips through the booster cylinders but only on really tight curves

[tender root]

yeah that's what the DV devs did too

for the water pipes

[lavish nacelle]

is this auditory only, or is there really wa'er in the cylinders ?

[tender root]

Sorry, somehow didn't see your message. I don't actually know, can you send a log?

!log

%AppData%/../LocalLow/Altfuture/Derail Valley/player.log

[lavish nacelle]

goddamn, this upload is slow

[tender root]

nah I got it

[chrome vortex]

that'd be cash money

also, were 1 axle boosters a thing?

[tender root]

Yes, for trailing axle boosters

not for tender boosters afaik

[chrome vortex]

okay cool

I've never seen one. I don't think German stuff even had boosters in general

[gusty kestrel]

At that point, I would request an attempt at turning the S282 into some sort of geared engine.

[tender root]

The boosters are geared

The ones that can go in reverse, do so by engaging an extra gear

so the valve gear can just be fixed

[gusty kestrel]

I was thinking along the lines of a shay or climax, but that sounds like it would be interesting.

... And now has me wondering if a railroad somewhere made a discount geared locomotive using spare boosters and an old engine.

[tender root]

no lol

boosters were really only a mainline engine thing, the backwoods railroads wouldn't have used them

would be funny though

[gusty kestrel]

Ye lol

[ashen coyote]

S282: Australian 282 doesn't exist, it can't be your friend.

Australian 282:

[rocky swallow]

fren

[solid elbow]

Tren fren

[inland garnet]

bren tren fren

[gusty kestrel]

fren!

[chrome vortex]

kinda fire

[languid badge]

I just watched Hyce’s wheel arrangement video, and now I want a meme arrangement that is just as x-2-2-2-2-x (or however many sets of pistons and single-axle drivers can be squeezed between the lead and trailing trucks)

[ornate spindle]

I don’t think there is even room.

[tender root]

Not a lot of room, and a pain to model

[languid badge]

Kinda expected that, but it would be funny

[solid elbow]

I just got a stupid idea

Give the S282 a heisler drivetrain

[languid badge]

https://youtu.be/D8FW8T78yRQ

I want this in game

I want it so badly, because it would be so stupid, but so funny

[solid elbow]

Let me introduce the superior design: #1139308178346098830 message

[regal tendon]

no

[languid badge]

https://tenor.com/view/god-beautiful-gif-22258705

[languid badge]

I agree, the superior design is WAY better

[languid badge]

Question: What is the fastest arrangement currently in game?

[tender root]

4-4-0, but it also has the lowest tractive effort

[languid badge]

Mainly thinking running passenger anyway

[swift island]

And what has the fastest acceleration again?

[tender root]

All the arrangements with 4 drive wheels have the same top speed

[languid badge]

With derail off

[tender root]

I've never measured acceleration; that might go to the duplexes

[swift island]

So basically, you're wanna go fast but not too fast?

[languid badge]

No. I want to go plaid.

[solid elbow]

https://tenor.com/view/scotland-plaid-independence-theyve-gone-plaid-gif-21808160

[gusty kestrel]

So, regarding the boosted tender, will there also be an option to have the tender like this as well? (I'm unsure as to if Powered Tender is the exact same thing as Boosted Tender)

[tender root]

I was thinking about it. No promises but it may be possible

[vagrant tendon]

I would imagine the 080 since due to the high adhesion you can put the most power down quicker

[vagrant tendon]

I will say even running the 440 with passengers at like 320t it struggles above like a 1.6 degree uphill if tracks are wet

Otherwise its absolutely fantastic

[ornate spindle]

I usually settle for the 4-6-2

[vagrant tendon]

If i plan my trip right i can do a map circumnavigation with it without ever having to re-up on coal or water averaging 40-50 km/h

[vagrant tendon]

What draws you to it out of curiosity, vs something like the 460

[short void]

High Speed Berkshire ftw

[ornate spindle]

Ah, I use it for when I run the express, I do use both.

However my favorite is the high speed Berkshire.

[vagrant tendon]

love that you threw open the shuttlecocks for extra flare

[ornate spindle]

Honestly I might call it shuttlecocks now.

That sounds cooler then cylindercock

[vagrant tendon]

...idk why i called it that

somethin 🐓 s

[ornate spindle]

I like having them barely open

Just a small wisp of steam

Like here.

[vagrant tendon]

didnt even know you could barely open them, thought it was an on/off thing

[ornate spindle]

It is, I like opening them and closing them quickly while taking a picture.

[short void]

I miss the aux tender

[ornate spindle]

I haven’t played in a while.

I’m guessing CCL hasn’t been updated?

[tender root]

not yet unfortunately, they're working on it

I think they're just gonna wait to release until they have locomotive support working

some types of locomotive anyway, not clear which will be supported at first

[proper turret]

hopefully steam locomotives are first

[solid elbow]

Afaik the first loco support will be diesel mechanical

and it is already working quite well

(in testing)

[maiden lark]

diesel electric is close apparently

[ornate spindle]

They won’t be,

[manic estuary]

Yes as far as I know only mechanical transmission is implemented currently

[solid elbow]

I can’t manage to make that happen

They are either open or closed

[ornate spindle]

?

Just open them.

Quickly pause the game

And then close them.

Or the other way around.

[tender root]

Was trying to find a front end throttle with a linkage inside the boiler, and found this. Sure looks strange but I guess the S282 has something like this

Doesn't look like many locomotives had them past about 1870 though

[shadow raft]

Well if you look into the cab it does have a rod going straight through the boiler.

Still, the way how that pipe bends but the linkage stays straight...

[tender root]

yeah lmao

[shadow raft]

That thing has bigger drivers than the DV steamers gee.

[tender root]

The S282 and S060 have fairly reasonably sized drivers

S060 is pretty big for an 0-6-0 I guess

[shadow raft]

Well the DV version has bigger drivers than the IRL one.

1424mm vs 1372mm

[ornate spindle]

0-6-0?

[tender root]

They are smaller. S282 is ~56", S200 had 60 inch drivers

[shadow raft]

I meant the S060.

[tender root]

Oh I see. hadn't realized that

[shadow raft]

Since you said it was big for an 0-6-0.

[ornate spindle]

Is the 0-6-0 faster then The 2-8-2?

[tender root]

No it's slower, but only because they've messed with the volumetric efficiency map (essentially, the S060 gets pretty inefficient at about 200 rpm, whereas the S282 gets pretty inefficient at about 400 rpm. It effectively gives the S060 a 250rpm rev limiter and the S282 a 500rpm rev limiter)

If it weren't for the volumetric efficiency shenanigans, they would have about the same top speed

[shadow raft]

😔

Give the S060 the glory it deserves

[tender root]

Honestly, I don't see much of a reason for the top speed to be very different in theory. If anything, the S060 probably has slightly less friction in its drivetrain (less axles, smaller cylinders)

[ornate spindle]

That reminds me,

Satiric,

Could you make a dev mod that changes the cylinder pressure,

And other things?

Making stuff like, making the steam chest larger,

Or making the boiler hold more pressure,

Run time stuff,

[tender root]

Changing cylinder pressure doesn't really make any sense - in game, it's determined by boiler pressure, throttle position, and cutoff

[shadow raft]

It is in fact a straight boiler pressure * throttle (normalised).

[tender root]

But boiler pressure could be changed by just increasing the safety

[ornate spindle]

More of stuff like larger cylinders,

[tender root]

oh right yeah duh, steam flow gets multiplied by cutoff

[ornate spindle]

Not in game,

Just stuff like sliders

[tender root]

Could do that. Would be a bit tricky to get settings changes to apply without reloading a save

[ornate spindle]

The ability to make the the SH282 be able to pull 10000000tons

Mainly testing.

Like for people who are working on steam engines, and can plug in the stats they were playing on using and then balancing it in the actual game

[nova mason]

None of that Victorian stuff

NSGWR 59 is where it's at

Unrelated is there much advantage to the 2-8-4 over the 2-8-2 in game? For the lost traction

[tender root]

Not really unfortunately. It does derail at a higher speed, but the tender and cars etc. still derail at the same speed lol

[nova mason]

Rightyo cheers

I'm sure you've thought about it, wonder if the steam generation rate could be increased with the 'bigger firebox' allowed by the two axle truck

[tender root]

hadn't thought about it actually, I had just been thinking the boiler and firebox would stay the same for all arrangements

[ornate spindle]

Honestly that’s what I suggested.

[tender root]

The editable safety valve etc would be a different mod though

[ornate spindle]

Oh no I just meant the larger firebox thing,

Remember?

[tender root]

Oh a while back? I thought you just meant visually

[ornate spindle]

I meant both,

Remember how I was talking about the 2-8-4 being the superior wheel arrangement?

The concept of it is ideal,

I was talking about it because the in game wheel rangement should project it.

Simply stuff like,

The 4-8-X should have more larger pistons.

(For the record I mean performance)

(On the outside it can still look like a default S282)

But the history behind a 4-8-x wheel arrangement was to have heavier larger pistons for more power per stroke.