Random discussion

[ancient pewter]

interesting

if its a metacurrency then that slots into hero tokens well, no?

[glass light]

I think you could incorporate Beats into Draw Steel through a parallel "Character Arc" Project track

[ancient pewter]

that would be cool

[dreamy cypress]

So for instance in Slugblasters there's the Heart arc, where:

1. You start a new relationship
2. the relationship grows but gets more complicated
3. a conflict or misunderstanding creates friction between you two and/or the crew
4. you do the difficult work of sorting things out

Each of those beats consumes metacurrencies and has lasting impacts on a mechanical level, but also lets the player decide that that's a story they want to explore with their character. I think something like that could totally work in Draw Steel

[glass light]

The Cypher System has a "Character Arcs" section that outlines events that can grant XP for playing out scenes (I don't recall if it's an optional rule)

[dreamy cypress]

I think it would definitely include downtime, but I think it could also be advanced during combat or negotiations too. Especially for arcs that involve difficult decisions in the heat of the moment, like making some personal sacrifice for someone else

It would be like a series of mini-titles, kind of?

[glass light]

Exactly. A clock towards some grander title, perhaps

[ancient pewter]

i like "chronicle" as a name

or maybe even "epic titles"

[dreamy cypress]

Slugblaster also incorporates metacurrencies like Trouble and Style into the Beats system, which I think could be interesting. Draw Steel has some in the form of Wealth and Renown, so maybe progress through your chronicle would have something similar. There might be metacurrencies like Doom or Virtue (for instance, they could be named anything) that work almost like plot armor or your character being doomed by the narrative. After you've compromised on some personal code to achieve a greater end, things get harder for you in the adventure to mirror the inner turmoil.

But the goal would be to simulate the way characters in media don't just get stronger as the story goes on. They inevitably have some darkest hour where things are the hardest (and the situation usually mirrors their inner conflict) and upon coming out of it, they're stronger than ever. THATS something I've always wanted from ttrpgs

[ancient pewter]

dont wanna make a whole thread for this, but i finished writing my imbuement guild guide: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vBnaHBVTUQsY5yRY-nC9IhYFbGB-O_jWjG-FNRwmvwM/edit?usp=drivesdk

as always, any feedback is appreciated

[quick quarry]

Howdy folks. So party just defeated a big solo, and I'm thinking I want to make a new Title for beating a were creature

I got a couple ideas: one is to let anyone with Lycanthropy gain something like stormwight animal shifting if not/until being cured; another is sensing shapeshifters

Trying to think what else you could be good at for killing a werewolf 🤔

[deep meteor]

How specific are you trying to make it to killing werewolves/lycanthropes, versus learning how to kill general supernatural/gothic horror/cursed enemies?

[viscid sapphire]

I like sensing shapeshifters personally

Gives you motivation as well to bring it up again in the story

[quick quarry]

Not SUPER specific - just something different from the default. I will say the party will likely deal with them again; the lycan escaped - and is part of an order of knights that can shapeshift - so they'll be back 😉

[deep meteor]

Ahh if they're recurring then I like detecting shape shifters too! Either in a "you know this guy is a shapeshifter", "you sense a nearby shapeshifter", or "a shapeshifter has definitely been through here" kind of way are all cool imo

[ancient pewter]

has anyone taken a shot at making a omnivok ancestry?

[hoary anvil]

A true construct ancestry is on my list of ideas to homebrew, but I haven't gotten to it yet

[ancient pewter]

i dont have a huge handle on the ancestry trait math haha

otherwise i would make one

[hoary anvil]

Yeah, it's an art not a science. But that's what the homebrew channels are for lol. I'll be posting in them if I can get a few together to look at at once

[ancient pewter]

👀

[hoary anvil]

The Eberron homebrew someone made a while ago also has warforged
https://docs.google.com/document/d/11-sVR0u9Wh4XslpBmuekLp31mekiLVIsjsykbrA3ZDE/edit?usp=drivesdk

[ancient pewter]

interesting

im not a lore expert, is the omnivok functionally different from a warforged?

idk eberron either

[hoary anvil]

Think it's pretty similar in origin tbh but IDK how much there actually is about the omnivok. Warforged were made for war (duh) but oops they became sentient and sad about it

Physically warforged are more like "magical living wood and metal" with special cores and crystals and stuff

They have something of a civil rights debate going on. No one's sure if they have souls because they can be resurrected but can't be made undesd

[true orbit]

Seeing a lot of ancestries pop up in homebrew is making me wonder if it's a worthwhile endeavor to have a big list of traits that function well in Draw Steel that Directors with their own established bespoke setting (like yours truly) can reconstruct their own ancestries

[ancient pewter]

theres broadly five archetypes i see for traits

• [stat] is treated as +1 for potency
• immune to [status]
• stability/speed/etc increase
• bespoke signature ability
• free/triggered action response

anything else is unique or utility

you can get more granular too, like the traits that give flight, or the traits that decrease save threshold, or the traits that give immunity

[vale panther]

There was one guy who was home brewing it, mentioned it on his stream a few weeks ago. Writing sounded awesome but mechanics decidedly still up in the air and no further mention recently. (Yes, Matt was home brewing content for his own game. His wording)

[ancient pewter]

yeah i remember that, was curious if anyone took the concept further 😅

[vale panther]

Oh, lol my b.

[ancient pewter]

more charts

[cunning harbor]

Not quite done yet, but this guide should give you most of what you need: https://docs.google.com/document/d/13yQ1JmGz7pYzaxbPWWxWBdbV_ytwkMBYu859pKQr1C0/edit?tab=t.0

[true orbit]

Ayoooo

[hoary anvil]

By any chance, do you have the numbers on the potency frequency? I have a Reason potency increase on one of mine and knowing the ratios would help knowing how much more to boost it

[ancient pewter]

just might (on dwarf and hakaan)

[hoary anvil]

No I mean the frequency of potencies targeted by monsters

Might is most common, then Agility, but the actual numbers of each (including the rest) would be great to know

[ancient pewter]

ive been wanting to do that for a while, lol

[ancient pewter]

Might (Total: 436)
0: 25
1: 81
2: 135
3: 104
4: 66
5: 22
6: 3
Agility (Total: 305)
0: 17
1: 49
2: 95
3: 73
4: 49
5: 15
6: 7
Reason (Total: 132)
0: 10
1: 29
2: 34
3: 31
4: 19
5: 7
6: 2
Intuition (Total: 152)
0: 10
1: 21
2: 44
3: 36
4: 28
5: 12
6: 1
Presence (Total: 108)
0: 3
1: 15
2: 27
3: 22
4: 20
5: 16
6: 5

[ancient pewter]

maybe the mental characteristics have more powerful statuses associated with them but i dont care to check

for optimization purposes M or A are the most efficent ones since they appear the most, idk how the balancing works for that

[hoary anvil]

Damn, thanks!

The order is actually just what I suspected, but the differences are bigger than I thought. All three mental stats don't add up to Might!

Wonder if it would be too much to give the potency boost for Reason and Presence as one 1-point ability.

[deep meteor]

Most likely too much. You'd have to check the relative strength of each effect. E.g M is skewed because it's used in a lot of forced movement, bleeding and grabbed, A is used in a lot of prone and slowed.

[deep meteor]

I would think in terms of "would someone ever not pick this option." IMO reason+presence potency +1 would pretty much always get picked if you've got 3 points to spend.

[hoary anvil]

Yeah my gut is that having the spread of it is just too good, but not sure. Presence is just so underused

Going by the numbers also assumes some kind of perfectly even spread of monster usage in a campaign, which is obviously never true

[cunning harbor]

I think you could do the three mental stats for 2

[hoary anvil]

That's actually what I had originally, but I foresaw many angry comments lmfao. I do like that solution

[marble pecan]

I ended up switching my online store off for a while because Shopify was charging me money for it and I wasn't making much d20 fantasy homebrew anymore, but looking back it's kind of crazy how much content I made for that game over like. 3 years?

I wrote 183 spells (there are 361 in the 2014 PHB), 2 new classes, 20+ subclasses for existing classes, feats, magic items, optional rules... And then in the unpublished stuff I ran a 2-year campaign where I think almost every enemy and magic item the players encountered was new or at least modified.

And now I'm looking at Draw Steel and it's like. If that's what I was inspired to make for d20fantasy, what's gonna happen now that I have a game that not only has clear design goals, but strong mechanics I don't have to tiptoe around?

[vale panther]

I'm looking forward to finding out!
For my end I was just getting started writing for 5e when 2023 took the wind out of my sails. I'm still searching for my footing, but Draw Steel has provided an environment I feel comfortable trying in again.

[deep meteor]

The biggest draw (pun intended) for me is not needing to homebrew. In 5e literally half of my prep was making or finding the right homebrew rules, class fixes, monsters, items. It was exhausting.

In draw steel, fun is plug-and-play. Any homebrew is just extra icing on the cake

[ancient pewter]

biggy agree

[vale panther]

Absolutely. Homebrew is done because (and when) it's fun.

[quick quarry]

Not to mention how much time was spent trying to fit the 5e naturalistic style. So much effort on formatting and nomenclature to get it to feel 'legitamite'.

[charred gale]

Has anyone done any guess work at how much 1 HR is “”worth”” compared to other resources in the game?

Like is 1 HR better than 1 edge? Or less than 1 surge? How much temp stamina is worth 1 HR?

Roughly speaking of course, since all are somewhat non-comparable and contextual.

My pure vibes, unsupported guess is that 1 HR :
= 3 temp stamina
< 1 Surge
‘> 1 Edge

[ancient pewter]

its better than edges and surges but less than temp stamina iirc?

depends on the stipulations

[ancient pewter]

hey so this actually happened last session!

my players were heading into a haunted manor and the dragon knight changed wyrmplate's type immunity from lightning to corruption

[brisk blade]

Cool!

[hoary anvil]

3 Focus gets you 3, 6, or 9 surges with Battle Cry, while 7 Piety gets you 3 surges and 20 temporary Stamina (Saint's Raiment), but also you get 1 to 3 surges for free with Blessed Light's damage

5 Discipline gets you 10, 15, or 20 temporary Stamina and immune to bleeding...5 Piety gets you 20, 40, or 60 temporary Stamina with Faith is our Armor...and then the fury's Steelbreaker (7 Rage) gets you...20 temporary Stamina. All as maneuvers, even!

Sooo it kind of depends severely on the class. I don't think it's "somewhat" incomparable lol

But I think surges are actually pretty cheap, temporary Stamina is kind of all over the place, and edges are the expensive one. The real rarity comes from how often they are used in a class's abilities

[glass light]

Cumulative benefit vs individual benefit is an important distinction for those, but it's true that HR "cost" varies a lot between classes. I think that mismatch is good, but it means that HR transfer options like the Troubadour have "wrong" answers. (Or at least stronger differences between optimal and suboptimal)

[hoary anvil]

I remember a dev diary getting around this problem early on but I don't remember what the actual conclusion of it was. If they decided to just let different classes have different rates or if they tried to tamp it down

[dreamy cypress]

One of my players asked why there wasn't another Agility-based martial in Draw Steel, like a Ranger counterpart. There's the Shadow obviously but it has a lot of emphasis on stealth, and there's the Null but it's all about unarmed combat. I think my player was interested in something more like Ciri from the Witcher? Think AGI carries from DotA2, maybe.

Now I'm thinking about it and it does seem like it could be cool, I think Draw Steel could really emphasize the cinematic elements of a really fast, mobile warrior. I have too many projects to start on that right now though lol

[ancient pewter]

ive really struggled to reflavor a swordmaster-esque character in draw steel

[dreamy cypress]

Yeah I have a simple house rule to swap out the primary characteristics of classes (for example if a player came in wanting to play someone like Kaladin from the Stormlight Archive, I might suggest they swap the Tactician's stats from Might and Reason to Agility and Presence) but it's still tricky.

(that would be more of a pre-oath Kal, not a radiant)

[hoary anvil]

The Shadow is mostly the best class to represent a traditional skillful warrior, it just takes some reflavoring. Caustic Alchemy is a pretty good witcher already, but Ciri is perfectly represented by Black Ash tbh. There's some stealth stuff, but I don't think it really has a lot of emphasis on it if you don't build to it.

Like I don't know how I would homebrew a class for a fast, teleporting swordswoman without it just being 95% the shadow already.

Just needs the right kit. Swashbuckler or Spellsword maybe

[dreamy cypress]

Yeah I agree the Shadow is probably the closest for now. Not necessarily an emphasis on teleportation, more on acrobatics I guess? Like I think there's always going to be people wanting to play Legolas and stuff like that

[hoary anvil]

Yeah you could just as easily reflavor the teleportation as really fast parkour or whatever. They get the most shifting so just pick the right kit and it's all narration from there

[dreamy cypress]

Actually I think Matt was talking about wanting a Speedster class for DS, with a big emphasis on triggered actions. That might mesh well

[white moat]

its pretty easy and clean to swap a physical for physical or mental for mental wrt class core stats

esp tactician can work really with any combo of one of each

i run for an agility/reason tactician

[hoary anvil]

Yeah that's also true, devs said they set those stats to ensure effective characters but there's no harm swapping

[ancient pewter]

i mean, just hypothetically u could change the associated stats for class' abilities too right?

like instead of power roll + reason it could be power roll + might

the only thing that massively changes is the potency effects ur susceptable to

[viscid sapphire]

Yeah I’m very happy to do that for my players

[white moat]

thats what i meant yea

[ancient pewter]

has anyone experimented with a format or structure for bespoke tag team attacks?

think like double techs from chrono trigger

tho trails to azure's combo crafts is my main touch point for stuff like this: https://youtu.be/s0ovkLGEsck?si=dTI5rnE8hWNaeJGV

[quick quarry]

Not yet! But tag team abilities sound super cool! I'd say they should be their own power that BOTH heroes have to spend HR on for one to activate. Off the top of my head, I'd say that'd be a cool 7 HR ability slot - one PC activates and has to choose one ally that hasn't taken their turn yet - they use their turn, and both spend HR, and then it does something cool

Would definitly require some testing though

[ancient pewter]

i did something like this in icon which is a different system but similar level of heroic fantasy

it used resolve pooled between the two pcs (think of these as victories) and 2 actions to activate

[quick quarry]

I think Arcadia had an issue on Tag Team abilities, I'd have to look that up

[ancient pewter]

so maybe action + triggered action

then like yeah 9 hr pooled between the both of you

maybe u could get an upgraded version thats 11 hr

[quick quarry]

I think either action or triggered, but not both - and make it cost a fair bunch. It still requires SOME coordination - because you have to use it before either of you go

Actually, maybe they should cost a bit more since you're splitting the cost - heck, make the cost EVEN (so 8, 10, 12) respectively

[ancient pewter]

the action cost is CUZ ur splitting the hr, is my thought

[quick quarry]

I might have to mock it up then to be sure.

BUT, pile of things to work on never stops ;P

[ancient pewter]

another limit i had in mind was X+ victories

like dragon dreams activating at 5+ victories

[quick quarry]

Ooh, actually - that makes a lot of sense

like..you cant tag team until you and the party start to get a rhthym

[ancient pewter]

my idea here is 4+ victories, action + triggered, costs 9 HR split between the both of you

eh maybe just action

[quick quarry]

actually (thinking about it) 1 action + 1 triggered split between 2 characters might not be a bad idea

[ancient pewter]

that was the idea

also gives u more power budget to work with

[quick quarry]

make the ability something that exists for the PARTY (ala the old stronghold sheet)...and anyone can activate it by using their action, and someone jumps in with a triggered

[ancient pewter]

exactly!

[quick quarry]

Actually, this idea fucking slapps. Imagine making tag team abilities that were themed based on the organization from K&W?!

you get tag team abilities each echelon (so up to 4) for the whole party you can use if you're a milita outfit or a arcane order

https://tenor.com/view/mind-blown-shocked-ashtonished-astounded-explosion-gif-4927161

[ancient pewter]

i like personalizing them in my campaigns

[quick quarry]

Sure sure - but I'm just thinking if I made something more universal

[ancient pewter]

like this is the fury and tactician combo's tag team attack

[quick quarry]

Yeah, definitly a few ways to do it

[ancient pewter]

"PRIMORDIAL FOCUS"

or whatever

[ancient pewter]

yeah thats a really cool implementation too

4 tag team abilities, one for each echelon for each org type

imagine a mage circle tag team attack

[quick quarry]

I'm thinking 8 (2 per echelon), and you pick one each time

[ancient pewter]

thats good

mirrors subclass choices

[quick quarry]

I could see something too where the ability has effects that are modified by the TYPES of HR spent on them

like, ability that deals damage, and then heals if it essence or piety is spent on it, or slides the target if discipline or clarity is spent on it

[ancient pewter]

i remember seeing a class + ancestry title thing floating around, like that?

certain combos give certain rides

lots of variables but i could see it

definately less work to just make bespoke ones tho xD

[quick quarry]

sure sure. This might be a project for me post release

too soon to work on right now but I see a lot of potential in it

[ancient pewter]

imagine one for the beastheart + fury

[quick quarry]

Oooh, right? When they share the same resource!

[ancient pewter]

akamaru and rock lee team up attack type beat

[ancient pewter]

or elementalist + summoner

u could have them pool resources to summon a huge ass undead

i have no idea how math works but heres a prototype

Let's do this, together!
Right!
Keywords: Unison, Strike Type: Action + Triggered
Distance: Cube 3 in 10 Target: One creature
Power Roll + Presence or Intuition:
• 11 or lower: 8 + P or I holy damage
• 12–16: 12 + P or I holy damage
• 17+: 18 + P or I holy damage
Effect: Both characters gain 3 surges and 20 Temporary Stamina.```

[quick quarry]

The downside of making it 2 specific classes is then it really is idiosycratic to your group. Instead of classes, could you instead maybe do keywords (i.e. Magic and Magic, or Magic and Weapon, or Weapon and Psionic)?

granted, you're doing your thing, so I shouldn't say you have to

Keyword: Unison - sounds great

I'd say TYPE is just Unison - and then define that term elsewhere

For this specific one - I might treat it like Hammer and Anvil - attack plus grant ally attack, and then effect rider?

[ancient pewter]

thats another good idea

[ancient pewter]

thing is some classes are both

[quick quarry]

They are, but I see that as a benefit 😉 Censor and Troubador get to team up even more

[ancient pewter]

so like

• psionic: null, talent
• magic: conduit, elementalist
• weapon: shadow, tactician, fury
• weapon + magic: censor + troubadour

honestly weapon + magic could be its own category

but thats just me

and my own sicko weirdness

[quick quarry]

maybe, but they're the gishes of DS so far

[ancient pewter]

AGH! NOT THE ACCURSED WORD

i feel a bit bad there being 3 weapon classes and two of the rest

but whatever

im fine with calling censor/troubadour "hybrid"

and that being its own thing

[quick quarry]

hybrid is just fine with me

[ancient pewter]

like you could have an ability called JUDGEMENT CUT (Hybrid + Hybrid)

[charred gale]

I’m so with this idea, but I think each player should roll a d10 from the power roll for extra flavor.

[quick quarry]

Oor.. what if they both make a power roll, and you use the higher result?

[deep meteor]

Since both censor and troubadour focus on high Presence and demoralizing enemies, it could be called "Willpower" or "Awe" or something

But on that note, rather than creating entirely new keywords and groupings, could it not be about characteristic allotment of classes?

So re-use the Psionic, Magic and Weapon keywords that's fine

[ancient pewter]

personally i would just do bespoke class combos

u can do something else but i find that most evocative

[deep meteor]

Are you imagining each pair of classes gets? Or just like, specific ones that you see a clear fantasy get one

[ancient pewter]

yeah

in my personal usage for this it would be campaign specific and between specific PCs

[ancient pewter]

.

[deep meteor]

Gotcha, so less about specific classes and more about your players and how they're connected. I like that a lot!

[vale panther]

Maybe use tactician powers as a model? Something like (For fire elementalist) "Action, Target: 1 ally, The target can spend a free triggered action to use one ability with the Strike keyword, that ability deals fire damage and the target gains 1 surge per tier on the power roll whuch must be used immediately. The target of the ability takes 5 fire damage at the start of its turn (Save Ends)."

Or flip the idea around, with an ability that says "If this ability is used as a Free Triggered Action on an Ally's turn, ..."

[ancient pewter]

frankly speaking, i do not find those as cool as bespoke abilities

other off turn strikes already exist, and theyre cool, but not my vibe

[dreamy cypress]

Anyone else house ruling that if you crit on a non-strike maneuver, you get an extra maneuver? (Since normally that would do nothing, only crits on strikes or actions give you an extra action)

[quick quarry]

Not that I've seen

[dreamy cypress]

Does Draconian Guard on the Dragon Knight seem underwhelming to anyone else? I know it's only worth 1 point and it can be used to protect allies, but the Dragon Knight Fury in my game took it and reducing damage by your level feels like kind of a waste of a triggered action, at least at level 1. And it's strikes only, so there are plenty of damage sources it won't work on.

It feels especially weird next to the myriad level 1 triggered actions from classes/subclasses that can halve any damage and sometimes have additional riders (Unearthly Reflexes, Skin Like Castle Walls, Inertial Shield, Defensive Roll, In All This Confusion, Parry, Repel)

I'm thinking about tweaking it to add his highest characteristic score to the reduction (so it would be 3 at level 1) and/or adding some kind of push effect.

[grim haven]

Yeah, it is a little underwhelming. But it's really good on a Censor (or a Green Elementalist) cause it gives you a second triggered action to use when you don't want to use My Life For Yours cause that spends recoveries.

Yeah, adding characteristic is probably mostly balanced.

[dreamy cypress]

Yeah he's got it on a Berserker fury, Lines of Force is a little weird but I think it'll get used more once everyone understands it better.

[cunning harbor]

The key detail about lines of force is that you can use it on your own attack or knockback. It's much better to use on an enemy's ability of course (you steal their forced movement), but it should never be useless.

[dreamy cypress]

Have the devs said anything about why so many effects end when you are dying* as opposed to ending when you actually die? Like, in hard combats I've seen heroes dip below 0 multiple times within a single fight, seems annoying to spend a lot of your heroic resource on an ability only for it to cut out two turns later because you've been hovering around 0 the whole time

*as an aside, some effects last "until you become dying" and some last "until you are dying", would the second category end instantly if you use them while dying?

[quick quarry]

They have not said as much; but I have a few ideas. I suspect since they don't have concentration under most circumstances, it keeps some of the tension of losing features during critical moments

[cunning harbor]

Another thing is that from the director's/monster's perspective, it minimizes the incentive to kill heroes in order to remove powerful effects.

[white moat]

splitting solos in half into duos has been going so well for me

speaking as a person running for a tactician and a censor so normal solos get shredded

[white moat]

literally just remove solo turns and set their hp to be like 75%, and add a second

[quick quarry]

I suspected people would make something tike that.

[deep meteor]

Have you kept the two actions per turn effect from solo turns? Or have you only allowed one turn and one action per member of the duo?

[white moat]

in current draw steel you get 1 action per turn anyway, but they get a 5 malice ability to take an extra action on a turn

which i retain

[ancient pewter]

has anyone made a censor rival?

or found an easy statblock to reskin as one?

[quick quarry]

Ive not seen one, but I think I could draft one up

[glass light]

#ds_patrons message
Willy had some advice a while back

Important piece being:

"I bet you can make a killer censor rival by swapping out the Fury signature with a hero censor one, preferably something melee"

This is from the Director of our level 3 game, where he threw a Rival Censor at us (Sir Pelliton, actually)

[quick quarry]

How is this? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IT4TQlQHz3QQbI182JtqsYVXESnCM9N1zmycwdSWPPI/edit?usp=drivesdk

[ancient pewter]

thanks!

[ancient pewter]

lol! im using this one for sir pelliton as well!

i suppose illrigger is different from censor but close enough

[white moat]

thats very funny
i created a rival acolyte/warlock (using the talent as a base) and it was also sir pelliton

(saxton's despotic regime and the grave order respectively for rival parties i've made)

[hoary anvil]

@worn bane What sort of categories were you thinking for the faction mechanics

Like just shorthand noting each faction's main thing, or a more complex matrix of options?

[worn bane]

More complex.
So something like, for each faction listing the mechanics that are available within, as well as the flavor.

Some examples for mechanics: flying, damage over time, area of effect, hardy, sacrifice, lifesteal
Some examples foir flavor: elemental, wild, magical, psionic, undead

Basically the first list would serve for if you want a certain mechanic in a fight, and you just want to reflavor it however you like, and the latter would do if you didn't have a particular mechanic in mind and just wanted a certain flavor.

[hoary anvil]

Thought this would be easier than it was (of course) lol. Here's what I've got so far

I gotta run and do some errands before my evening plans, so feel free to make a copy and continue adding to that if you like

(or do your own thing if you prefer, I won't be offended)

[worn bane]

Won't have any time today. But might put in some tomorrow.

[hoary anvil]

Mood. Offer extends to anyone else lol

[ancient pewter]

ngl i feel like just putting in faction trait + a brief description is enough

[hoary anvil]

Otherwise I'll keep at it

[hoary anvil]

That was my initial thought but some are harder to summarize than others ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[ancient pewter]

this is a cool list tho, as a chart maker i approve

[worn bane]

This is really good!
Exactly what I wanted!

[hoary anvil]

Made a second tab for the shorthand version lol

[ancient pewter]

i think the hard thing is like

some factions are legit like 2 stat blocks

[worn bane]

Some are 1, lol

[hoary anvil]

Yeah I debated whether or not to even include solos but I think could still be helpful, especially in summary mode

[ancient pewter]

thats fair

orcs and goblins are like

mini faction size

for me

[hoary anvil]

I gotta run but anyone feel free to fork that, or add suggestions to either tab (comments are on)

[worn bane]

Not as "reflavor" friendly imo, which is why I want to focus on mechanics purely, personally

But definitely useful as well

[ancient pewter]

thats fair

[ancient pewter]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_QuxQx-qMg340H5rLRVIeBMoXzGu7mQROEeOa5xE_QI/edit?usp=sharing

made my own version (its in the second tab of the sheet)

just the faction specific traits (or TA) for each faction

some dont have any (just dwarves, draconians, and basilisks iirc)

[marble pecan]

Per the adjusted rules for criticals in the new patron packet, this is a tiny rule adjustment I'll be deploying at my table.

This is mostly because it makes me sad when I see a Fury get a crit on a knockback maneuver and get all excited, but then everyone remembers that doesn't actually do anything special.

There are also a small number of abilities with a power roll that aren't a Main Action or a Maneuver. There are a few Free Triggered heroic abilities on the Fury, Null, and Tactician, and there might be more somewhere that I haven't found.

[glass light]

I like that, it's overall less impactful than the main action crit, but still feels good

[quick quarry]

I think I like just the extra maneuver, but otherwise probably not too powerful. I'm sure you'll find out after a few games one way or another

[glass light]

The symmetry of getting a second maneuver is the most natural extension, for sure

[worn bane]

Can I suggest changing the title to "Draw Steel - Faction Mechanics Matrix"?

[hoary anvil]

Done

[marble pecan]

Yeah the extra maneuver is the primary function, but there are also a few triggered actions that have a power roll and wouldn't normally be able to crit (glamor of terror on the high elf, for instance). All this rule really needs to do is make sure that no crit goes unrewarded, even if it's just something relatively small, since that just feels bad at the table in my experience

And also things like The Flesh, a Crucible that let you roll again at the start of your turn with Persistent, but don't use a maneuver or anything. This would let a crit on that roll become a free strike or a Recovery, where normally you would get nothing.

[hoary anvil]

Someone (u/clethrill) just posted this on the sub, monster editor/statblock builder
https://www.steeldrawer.com/

[worn bane]

That's really cool. Hopefully we'll eventually have concrete guidance to make generally balanced monsters.

[ancient pewter]

im curious about something

are there any dnd statuses that are missing from draw steel, either specifically or generally?

[hoary anvil]

There's no equivalent to blinded/deafened, nothing that really shuts down or weakens magic specifically, and nothing like stunned or paralyzed or petrified that completely removes your turn

(in terms of generic conditions, some monsters can do some of those)

There's also no generic "charmed" or "poisoned"

[ancient pewter]

no charmed makes sense

and poisoned is emulated by other effects

no stunned/paralyzed makes sense for draw steel

and null emulates no magic

i wonder why no blinded tho

[lusty raft]

If I remember correctly the devs said something to the effect that they wanted to keep the list of conditions fairly small in general & cut down on those that a) wouldn't easily set themselves apart from others in terms of how the fantasy of the conditions would translate to game mechanics and b) could be represented by other conditions fairly easily, too. And blinded seems like it would work like weakened or dazed in most cases, anyways.

The reasoning was that conditions can become kind of a hassle to track in ttrpgs (as opposed to video games that can automate all that stuff easily). That's one of the big reasons I'm really excited for the Codex because you can kind of get the best of both worlds via something like that.

If I were to design a tactical ttrpg from scratch I'd probably cut even more conditions 😄

Plus, do more with less is a great design principle in any case

[hoary anvil]

Yeah I haven't actually missed any of those conditions in playing yet, except maybe blinded. Specific creatures using them as specific riders has worked just fine for me. Having a short core list is good

[dreamy cypress]

I know there are a few effects that limit the range at which a creature can have LoE

Which is similar to blinded in that you effectively can't "see" past a certain distance to target things

[lusty raft]

Yeah, there are a fair amount of class- & monster specific conditions in general. Like marked, judged, dragonsealed, the ferocity inflicted by the werewolf etc. etc.

Which is a cool way to make conditions more 'cinematic' (by the MCDM definition of the term)

[ancient pewter]

draw steel also seems to abide by the philosophy that ranged targeting should be easy, which makes a blinded-like status less appealing

[ancient pewter]

its funny cuz i had the opposite opinion - or rather, i would prefer it if the game had two or three more statuses

i feel like it would interface with player side potencies a bit better

[lusty raft]

You mean it would utilize the design space of potencies more effectively?

[ancient pewter]

yeah

[lusty raft]

That might be right. The potency gates are a very elegant piece of design.

I absolutely see the big advantages of conditions as a design element, too. If it weren't for the somewhat tiring, constant bookkeeping that results from a bunch of conditions flying around I'd absolutely jump on board the more conditions train.

I think conditions are a design space that would really come to life in a ttrpg that's built to be played solely digitally

[ancient pewter]

i mean granted im only talking about a couple more conditions

i feel like that provides more levers to pull, design wise

[marble pecan]

There's also a difference between more condition options and conditions being used more often in abilities

If there are 20 conditions but they come up rarely, that's still pretty easy for me to track at the table. If there are 3 but they get applied and removed to everything on the battlefield every round? Much more difficult

[cunning harbor]

Dwarves get +1 stability iirc. So not a separate trait, but still a defining feature

[quick quarry]

I've also noted that I think adding more conditions is only viable if you have enough abilities using that condition that its worth shortening - and currently conditions that I've thought of adding are often limted to what classes or even subclasses that would use that; at which point - just describing the effect in the ability works instead.

[white moat]

one of my players has expressed an interest in getting a kobold retainer in my setting (since they're a talent and kobolds in the setting are gemstone dragon adjacent) and its got me hype

[ancient pewter]

this might be a bit presumptious of me and this is kinda a more "for fun" project

but i was thinking of the following adjustments to treasures

• implement/weapon imbuements: +1 option at each tier (bringing total to 10 possible options, to mirror the 10 for armor imbuements)
• implement levelled treasures: +7 implements (bringing them equal to 13 implements, same as weapons)
• armor levelled treasures: +3 armors (1 medium, 1 shield, 1 "non-armored" to bring them equal to 13 armors, equal to implements/weapons)
• weapons: same number (add a bow treasure and remove a whip treasure)

of course i would have to homebrew all this stuff

but i was just throwing this out there if this concept is flawed, at a base level

[hoary anvil]

I don't think there's any flaw with adding more options (treasure variety is one of the few things I think is lacking in the core book). But I don't see the point of removing anything

Weapon type is already the easiest part to switch

[ancient pewter]

as far as removing a whip treasure, only 1 kit uses whips

and yet there are 2 whip treasures

[hoary anvil]

They're both for me. I like whips. And chains. They excite me

[quick quarry]

Do you just mean adding more treasures for people to pick from, or do you mean you can HOLD more treasures before you go over your carry cap?

[ancient pewter]

the former

[hoary anvil]

Damn I really wanted to hold 13 weapons at once

[ancient pewter]

polearms have 2 treasures and theyre used by 3 kits, so i think thats worthwhile. nets have 1 treasure and theyre used by 1 kit. it doesnt makes sense to me that whips are used by 1 kit like nets yet they have 2 treasures

cuz bows are used by 4 kits and they only have 1 treasure

[hoary anvil]

Why would you remove them though? Why not just add more for other weapon types? Why deprive the whip user of an option

[ancient pewter]

because i want the numbers equal across all options

[quick quarry]

Ok - in that case - why have a limit? I don't see treasures as having a set amount - but make any you need/want to as you come up with them, no?

[hoary anvil]

Then I think that's the flaw in your concept, there's no need for the numbers to be equal when it cuts into the actual thing you're trying to accomplish which is giving players more options. The treasures themselves are not equally used across all types. Not every kit uses armor, so you should want fewer armor treasures than weapon treasures

And half the classes don't even use kits so there should be half as many weapon and armor treasures as implements which anyone can use

Not trying to sound overly sarcastic, just illustrating why I think the logic is flawed

[ancient pewter]

ultimately the weapon thing is take it or leave it, i think

having more implement treasures is my biggest thing

[hoary anvil]

Anything on the angle of having more options, I'm down for. I definitely want more implements and I do also want more bows

I've barely started homebrewing items but bows were one of the first things I wanted to add more of

[ancient pewter]

honestly having 1 less option for implements/weapons at each echelon for imbuements is fine too

[ancient pewter]

technically only null cant

because elementalist, conduit, and talent can all get the augmentation/blessing/enchantment that lets them wield lights

[hoary anvil]

Lol fair enough, ultimate point is the same. But we can move on regardless

[ancient pewter]

i will say, somewhat unrelated, that i dont see the appeal of nets as a weapon

[hoary anvil]

I remember an early playtest where we were testing treasures and one of the players said they thought the treasure variety was low and I went "Oh I mean there'll probably be more" and all the coordinators in the test went "There won't" and I was like OH

[ancient pewter]

especially like

using a magic net?

[ancient pewter]

lol my players said the same

[hoary anvil]

The Retiarius is a historical fighting style and players like emulating those. I myself have a retiarius character that hasn't really been properly represented in a game in 10 years

I was very excited to see it in DS

[ancient pewter]

i will admit

i have never

in all my years of trpgs

encountered someone that said

"ah yes! a retiarius! i cant wait to play this archetype in a roleplaying game!"

so maybe thats on me

same with "Guisarmier"

most people i play with would say "what the fuck is that"

not

"ah yes, the guisarme, a classic! the germanic polearm from 1000 through 1400 AD. i cant wait to play as someone that wields one! "

[hoary anvil]

Okay guisarmier is a bit different because that's just basically the generic polearm kit (it even has the same signature ability as Polearm Master in 5e). But Retiarius has at least some wider appeal

[ancient pewter]

i just moreso mean the name haha

[hoary anvil]

Oh that's fair

It's what I recognize cos I used to be big into Greek & Roman history but "net and trident" is a more common usage

[ancient pewter]

nerddddddd!

[hoary anvil]

Proudly

[deep meteor]

Wait that's me LOL I was really into percy jackson and IIRC there's a villain that's a retiarius or something? The trident + net fantasy has been in my head for ages

Ohh yeah found him, Polybotes in son of neptune

[ancient pewter]

well yeah, i dont doubt the net majority of folks on the mcdm server were huge nerds about historical weapon archetypes

[deep meteor]

Shots fired shots accepted

[ancient pewter]

im not that genre of trpg fan but i did run a campaign that made many a reference to shinto mythology as a teen

so im not immune

yes i was the kid that had katanas in every TRPG i played

shut up!

[deep meteor]

Baddass, I'm actually running something like this rn (season of ghosts from pf2e)

[worn bane]

Ok but why remove content?
Perhaps just reskin one of the whips to a different type?

Generally I like the idea of more options.

[ancient pewter]

but symmetry....

[worn bane]

Yeah, it's real sad.

[ancient pewter]

ive already started mapping out some implements

[worn bane]

Is reskinning not possible while maintaining symetry?

[ancient pewter]

i would have to look at the whip weapons again

prob not steeltongue, its effect is too dependent on being a whip

i think authority's end would fit tho

light weapon i think?

[worn bane]

Anything would fit, really

[charred gale]

commenting about a theoretical Spellsword class here, since I reckon it'd veer out of #ds_general territory quickly...

The way James broke down classes as being primarily "the engine" of a Hero made a lot of sense to me. Cause the implementation of archetype or fantasy can be negotiated with other specs, like kits , subclass even complications or treasure. (I think a bit more diversity in spellsword kits & level treasure would go a long way towards helping folks fill out that fantasy, for example).

What would a Spellblade class's engine be? Not obvious to me actually, since spells in this game don't have much mechanical distinction beyond keywording.

Like, you could arbitrarily assign it some martial function not well covered by Fury, Shadow, Troubadour.

Or maybe it'd be something to do with powering up the weapon with HR? Dunno. I'm not sure what people actually want out of a spellblade beyond the look.

[meager arrow]

Thank you for migrating!

[charred gale]

Figured the sign tap was coming!

[ancient pewter]

honestly for me

spellblade having like

enchantments or something

that they imbue into their abilities

is on point for what i understand the magus class is

[quick quarry]

So, I've always wondered is if what people want more is a martial fighter that uses magic to give them just a little edge in their fighting capabilities - or if they want a spell caster that is a bit more durable; but still mostly focuses on spells. Personally, the former I think is more interesting and a bigger niche to explore - its less team focuses than a tactician, not strictly stealthy like a shadow, and possibly not as focused on forced movement like a Fury

[worn bane]

I'm inclined to the former, myself.

Though not a "small edge" as much as a perfection of the combination of both. But mechanically a martial.

[ancient pewter]

i think the case of "martial that uses magic or vice versa" is purely aesthetical

especially in a game like draw steel

in icon for instance, theres a spellsword class (called the spellblade) in icon and its whole thing is just about teleporting around and summoning lightining swords

[worn bane]

I plan on taking inspiration from it for one of the subclasses - Blinkblade.

[worn bane]

I kinda disagree, but only because you can say the same about any class in the game.

Like you can totally reflavor Fury as a sorcerer that uses telekinesis or something to push people around.

[ancient pewter]

yes

[worn bane]

So, any class is "purely aesthetical". Some have mechanics that underscore the fantasy more than others.

Like Shadows with hiding, for instance. But that's about as far as it goes, everything else can be reflavored however you like.

Therefore a more important question is whether there is a mechanical niche that can be filled that isn't already filed.

Which is likely more like "a combination of mechanics", as any class ultimately is.

[charred gale]

That's what I'm missing conceptually. It's not necessarily a role to fill. But a gameplay loop that is distinct enough.

[ancient pewter]

yeah i suppose thats up to you in that case xD

[charred gale]

Shadow has a very distinct loop vs. Fury vs. Troob vs. Censor

[worn bane]

Will have to figure that one out for myself somehow, yeah.

[quick quarry]

Sword mage, to me - screams mobility, arcane shields that they can extend to allies, limited blaster abilities, and some area of effect. I think the 4E swordmage was a good template without anything more narratively grounded

[worn bane]

I will say, I don't think every class has a distinct "loop" as much as Shadow does. In that sense it is one of the more well designed classes, in my opinion.

[charred gale]

They vary a bit for sure. Shadow is very distinct since it unifies movement, surges/edges, and hiding.

[worn bane]

That is to say, I don't consider "the loop" to be a critical component. But I definitely will try to find something unique.

[worn bane]

I mostly relate to that.

[quick quarry]

A good question that can also be a good break off point is - narratively, what causes a hero to develop these skills. Do they start off learning to use weapons, but find they can't rely on their physical prowess alone, and so turn to magic out of desperation? I feel like the right narrative or diegetic spark can also really help inform the mechanics.

[worn bane]

This is the blurb I wrote for Magus. @quick quarry

In pursuit of perfection, you search the lands for both esoteric techniques and ancient tomes, as you walk the narrow path where steel sings and spells crackle. A dancer of battle and magic, you weave incantation and blade into a single, fluid art—graceful, deadly, and sublime.

As a Magus, you artfully synergize the usage of spell and blade for maximal effect. A master Magus is a terrifying sight to behold.

[charred gale]

Perhaps a spellblade would balance Area abilities with Strikes

Like you have a resource called that can be spent to modify the distance entry of area abilities.

And using strike abilities recharges the resource

[cunning harbor]

Clearly the solution is adding more whip kits! /half joking

[ancient pewter]

cowboy kit that uses a gun and a whip

[cunning harbor]

...huh I guess I should allow it to be a whip instead shouldn't I?

[ancient pewter]

ensaring weapon means like

net

iirc

[cunning harbor]

or a lasso!

I actually remember someone flavored their ensnaring weapon as a hunting hound, which would go out and hold on to the target.

[hoary anvil]

Yooo sick and also yes that's a great idea

[cunning harbor]

Thanks! It's from my Gunslinger Class

though the kits can be used with other classes theoretically

[hoary anvil]

Yeah I've been excited for this one for a while! Haven't checked it out in detail because my current campaign can't use it lol but I'm very pumped for future developments

[cunning harbor]

If you are interested in participating in a playtest, I'd be happy to run one! Been meaning to do another one next week. I think I've got levels 1-3 now in a really good spot, and I'd like to test my most recent tweaks.

[hoary anvil]

Yeah sure, ping me when you're setting it up! I'm pretty open

[ancient pewter]

hammered these out. are these balanced? i have no idea!

[deep meteor]

I'm bad at balancing but I'm good at edge casing

• Your potencies are flipped (should be < not >)
• I suspect you want to replace "concealment" with "cover" in Ikaruga?
• Stone's hammer and lantern of the unbroken are fairly weak
• The distinction between concealment and invisibility is tenuous at best, I don't know mechanically what difference 9th level Shadowfell makes in combat

These are all super flavorful though!!

[ancient pewter]

1. my bad, ill fix em
2. i think damage immunity 2 is pretty strong and concealment tends to get harder to apply than cover. maybe thats just me tho.
3. what parts about them are weak?
4. it means while you have concealment enemies have a double bane to strike you, effectively stacking the bonus for the price of one

[cunning harbor]

A lot of the 9th level abilities are significantly too weak

[ancient pewter]

ill bump up their power but i would like some pointers on what a power of the approriate level would be

[cunning harbor]

Words Become Wonder at next breath: You automatically gain a tier 3 result on Intuition tests to recall lore, and all of youer heroic abilities cost 1 less (min 1)

Chaldorb: when you use a magic/psionic ability, deal 6 damage to each enemy within 2, and gain a 2 aura that deals 6 damage to each enemy who enters or starts their turn there

Brittlebreaker: whenever you use a damage dealing magic/psionic ability, can take half as much damage as the target did to immedietly use the ability again. Can be repeated until you are winded

[cunning harbor]

I think those are some good highlights?

[ancient pewter]

hmmmm

ill go back to the drawing board

but are any of these ones conceptually unworkable, you think?

[cunning harbor]

Like for Piercing Moonlight Veils the Night (fantastic high elf name btw), have the condition be dazed instead

[cunning harbor]

I'm not a huge fan of the Rod of a thousand years. Both because it has no combat benefits, and because the out of combat benefits are very boring. But even there I think the concept is sound, just needs a different strategy to capture the vision you had for it.

[ancient pewter]

that makes sense

thanks for the feedback

[cunning harbor]

Lawbreaker I think might be one of my favorites, but IMO the second option needs to change. Diagonal corners is a bit too situational IMO, and I know several tables that just let you do that anyway.

[ancient pewter]

oh really? lol

[indigo lodge]

invisibility already conceals you, so stacking them doesn't do anything

[ancient pewter]

ah thanks for pointing that out

[cunning harbor]

Could just be become hidden IMO

[indigo lodge]

yeag since its a 9th level

might be more interesting if you give it more damage instead though

[cunning harbor]

Actually worth noting, Shadowfell doesn't have internal synergy. You need some way to get multiple attacks a turn or off turn, since the concealment only lasts until the start of your next turn.

the current wording for the bonus damage makes it very strong with AoEs, not sure if that's intended or not.

for Lawbreaker, a potential level 5 ability: you don't take a bane for using a ranged ability next to an enemy

[indigo lodge]

Elementalists can easily do this though

[cunning harbor]

Easily?

[indigo lodge]

Practical Magic is a maneuver

[cunning harbor]

Still need a creature with 2 or less health remaining. Most minions have 4 at first level, and it scales faster than your characteristics do

[indigo lodge]

Oh my bad I missed the reduced to 0 part

[cunning harbor]

Yeah, it's not just deal damage

and it's very non-intuitive, which IMO is the bigger concern. Someone takes this ability, then only later realizes it doesn't work they way they thought it would.

[deep meteor]

2. I think what you should be considering is either cover or, if too strong, line of effect. Concealment to me is a totally separate category that won't naturally come up that often (how often realistically will someone shift into darkness or fog?)
3. stone's hammer should be at least strictly better than the Knockback maneuver in any situation, at any level. Giving up a maneuver, requiring melee, and an "implement hand slot" is a big deal imo. Maybe giving it range at level 1 or past a certain level could help too.

As for lantern, it does nothing after a respite even at level 9. I like the flavor though, there must be some way to make this type of mechanic work.

[deep meteor]

*replying here

[ancient pewter]

thanks

ill be taking all this feedback into account

[worn bane]

So these are the subclasses ("Arts") I've settled on for now for Magus. Would appreciate thoughts on the actual fantasies.

Blinkblade: The Blinkblade focuses on harnessing the potential of teleportation magic - weaving in and out of their opponent's reach, it can seem impossible to lay a hand on a practitioner of this art.
Runewright: The Runewright employs the ancient craft of runesmithing to both imprint runes on their foes as well as carefully lay sigils around the battlefield.
Soulforged: The Soulforged channels a fragment of their soul into a chosen weapon, dynamically empowering it. Through this bond, they also manifest protective magic upon themselves, becoming both blade and bulwark.

[deep meteor]

Thematically speaking, how is the blinkblade different from the black ash shadow?

[worn bane]

It's definitely similar mechanically. They both use teleports. In theory Black Ash Shadows do shadow stuff, while Blink Blade focuses on purely teleportation magic.

But it's good feedback. I'll see how I can differentiate them mechanically.

[quick quarry]

@worn bane I feel like the latter two don't really tell me much about what the subclasses do. Teleportation I get, but does the runewight buff allies, or create traps? Same with soulforged. The name seems more about describing the source of the power rather than describing the fantasy.

Let me ask, before you have a name, what is the 1 to 2 sentence descriptor of how each subclass fights?

[worn bane]

This is it @quick quarry. Those are the descriptors.

[quick quarry]

Sorry. I recognize that. What I'm saying is that I don't think those descriptions are doing a great job of describing the fantasy combat, IMO. Both the names and descriptions have more info about how the magic works as opposed to what the magic is doing. Does that make more sense.

[worn bane]

I see.
I feel like "imprinting runes on foes" and "laying sigils around the battlefield" are saying what you do with the magic, no?

Likewise "empowering their weapon" and "manifesting protective magic".

[quick quarry]

Hmm, maybe. Perhaps just for me then it doesn't spark any good image. I'm looking at the shadow subclasses and they seem more evocative, and I feel like something is missing but struggling to put my finger on it.

[worn bane]

Ok fair enough. I'll see if I can try making it more evocative.

[quick quarry]

Hoping it's productive critique, I'm rooting for you

[worn bane]

Sure is. Thank you. Lmk if you want access to the WIP doc.

[grim haven]

Runewright seems to be about placing debuffs on enemies and creating zones in the battlefield. That feels like a good mechanical fantasy to me. Maybe some abilities from the subclass have two formats, "placed on single target" and "placed on the battlefield"?

Soulforged...I'm less sure the mechanics of at a glance. Grants themself a bunch of temp Stamina? The lore there is less clear for the mechanics.

But I do think this is a good set of 3 subclasses for a Magus/Spellblade class!

[deep meteor]

@worn bane maybe what Zetesofos is getting at here, might help you with direction: think of your favorite swordmage characters in fiction, and try to map them onto your subclasses. Might help each feel more "evocative"

[worn bane]

Hopefully slightly more evocative @quick quarry.

Runewright: The Runewright employs the ancient craft of runesmithing to both imprint runes on their foes - priming them for detonation, as well as strategically lay both offensive and defensive sigils to manipulate the battlefield in their favor.
Soulforged: The Soulforged imbues a fragment of their soul into their chosen weapon, making it an extension of themselves - a Soulblade. Through this bond, they can both empower and modify their Soulblade, and even manifest Soularmor, becoming both blade and bulwark.

Frustratingly, certain tools available online can write much better than I. But I won't post those results here.

[worn bane]

Thanks, by the way!

Here's a snippet of the basic class maneuvers. Obviously balance is WIP.

[deep meteor]

I like Spellstrike! "Focus" isn't a good name here imo, it's already the tactician's heroic resource !

[worn bane]

You're right. I'm trying to think of a better name.

Perhaps "Stillness". Or "Center".

[deep meteor]

Also nothing wrong with using existing heroic resources for "Balance", imo tactician focus, null discipline, shadow insight, elementalist essence, all make sense depending on what you're going for. But Balance is cool too!

[worn bane]

I actually quite like Balance because it communicates that the art of the Magus is, well, a balance of two seperate traditions and skillsets, and this requires the practitioner themselves to be in balance.

[grim haven]

Center seems good to me

[worn bane]

Center it is.

[ancient pewter]

some new edits!

[quick quarry]

So, watching critical role's Daggerheart game, and they showed off their dying mechanic. Without any other details, I think there's a case to say it could be a cool addition to tack on to DS if/when a character dies at negative winded value.

[glass light]

The Death Moves are dramatic as hell, yeah

[deep meteor]

IIRC an earlier version of draw steel had something like this, before they fully fleshed out the dying mechanic. What ended up happening is people would suicide bomb their characters for funsies

Obviously these were test one-shots where there's little to no emotional attachment to characters, but suffice to say mcdm has tested this and didn't like it

Maybe it works out differently at your table though!

[quick quarry]

Yeah, the DH system for blaze of glory is, you immediately act and get a critical success; so the DS version would be action with a auto tier 3 result? Maybe gaining HR too? What were the original rules they were debating?

[deep meteor]

Found it! https://youtu.be/lIJBi4NLP_o?si=b2P7Aeh6ikbEggs3 "A Heroic Death" by james

[deep meteor]

• (3) is too weak, significant chance for null result at level 1.
• Ikaruga is still on the weak side, maybe "once per turn as a free triggered action?"
• Stone's hammer level 9 is too strong, maybe save ends?
• Lantern feels too swingy, very weak with low victories and too strong with many. I think bringing down the ceiling and raising the floor would put it in a good spot

Really liking the direction of all of these!

[ancient pewter]

changes:

• piercing moonlight veils the night inflicts weakened at all echelons
• ikaruga is now a FTA. im still of the mind to make it a triggered action, but ill see
• stone's hammer's 9th level effect is now EoT
• lantern gives +2 range for every soul, +2 speed for every two souls, and damage immunity 2 for every three souls

still dunno what u mean by ceiling/floor but thats what i could parse

[deep meteor]

I like these a lot! What I mean by ceiling/floor is lantern is too weak when you have no souls, and too strong when you have too many

For example at level 9 you have an implement that does nothing on your first fight, but (theoretically) allows you to reach an uncapped speed where you can move in, deal damage, and zoom out of the enemy's range, continually, every turn

[ancient pewter]

i had another idea for 9th level lantern that gives you 5 or 10 temp stamina at the start of your turn for every 3 souls

[ancient pewter]

yeah its a ramp treasure

plus it does do something on ur first fight

u just gotta get souls

okay i see what u mean

perhaps like

1st Level: Whenever you deal damage with a magic or psionic ability which causes the target to become winded, you gain a Soul of the Damned. Each soul increases the Range of your magical and psionic abilities by +1, up to a max of +10. Your souls are reset whenever you take a respite or become dying. 5th Level: Additionally, for every two souls you have, your speed increases by +1, up to a max of +5. 9th Level: Additionally, for every three souls you have, you gain damage immunity 2, up to a max of damage immunity 6.

like that?

[deep meteor]

Awesome. I would also have a flat bonus at every echelon even with no souls, and you should be in a great spot

[ancient pewter]

ah i have an idea

[ancient pewter]

Changes:

• this implement no longer gives a damage bonus. instead it gives a +2 ranged bonus at 1st level, +1 speed at 5th level, and 5 temporary stamina at the start of combat at 9th level

[indigo lodge]

wait so it doesn't give any damage bonus at all?

[ancient pewter]

yes, theres a precident for this

most notably steeltongue and words become wonders at next breath

[indigo lodge]

oh interesting, I didn't know about those

it seems that they both have conditional +3 rolled damage bonus at 5th level though

[ancient pewter]

wonders has a power roll bonus

not a damage bonus

steeltongue does tho, thats right

idk im fine with removing these static bonuses and keeping the damage buff

[indigo lodge]

I was mostly just surprised, if there's precedence for it then I guess you don't really need a damage bonus

[worn bane]

@ancient pewter I know you said something about anime swordsman vibe, the Magus is kind of leaning that way for me right now.

[worn bane]

Fourfold Slash feels very Virgil to me.

[ancient pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/miyabi-miyabi-hoshimi-miyabi-zzz-zenless-zone-zero-miyabi-ultimate-gif-6225844444318759832

[worn bane]

I definitely am going to add something like this too, that is single-target focused. A Thousand Cuts, or something.

[glass light]

Look at the Meteor Dragon (I think) for a neat repeating mechanic that has a terminating loop save/potency

Something to minimize the number of rolls you make, but keep the staccato nature of a hundred slashes

[worn bane]

Thanks!

[hidden void]

Damn, that's a cool ability (re: meteor dragon's voidlight breath ability

[worn bane]

Just making sure since I'm afk, this is Draw Steel ability, right?

And if anyone else has any other idea for anime-type moves, let me know.

My touch stones right now are Demon Slayer, Devil May Cry, and Tome of Battle.

[indigo lodge]

Meteor Dragon is a solo monster, Fizzer is talking about this ability

[worn bane]

Woah, cool.

[ancient pewter]

i was thinking about something

specifically "lifting the guardrails"

on options

like not being limited by subclass for abilities

or my afformentioned lifting the restriction on keywords for levelled treasures

[worn bane]

As a houserule?

[glass light]

I think the level 10 Conduit does something like that

[hoary anvil]

Yep, Censor can also spend their epic resource to access other domains

[ancient pewter]

yeah basically

was also thinking about swapping around kit signatures if u want but that seems like a bad idea

[worn bane]

You could do that but it'd have obvious repercussions.

I still think you should be able to pick past options instead of new options.

[worn bane]

This is 100% from Demon Slayer.

[quick quarry]

Ok, demon Slayer is...a good archetype I can get behind. Also breath is a great resource

[indigo lodge]

might wanna look at Tide of Death for the effect wording, "adjacent to the far end of the line" is a bit unwieldy

[worn bane]

I just realized I need to add a Katana kit along this class.

[worn bane]

I used Shadowfall as a reference for the wording. I could also use Tide of Death's wording if this wording seems clunky.

[worn bane]

True, I could see it as a class. For now it's just a cultural touchstone for the Magus abilities.

[ancient pewter]

worth noting breath is already the epic resource of the elementalist

[indigo lodge]

That it does, I guess that’ll be fine then

[indigo lodge]

Ooh I didn’t know this, that’s sick

[worn bane]

Huh. Didn't know that.

[worn bane]

Not sure I understand - what do you mean will be fine?

[indigo lodge]

Oh like I mean it’ll be fine if you keep it as is

Instead of changing it to look like Line of Death

[worn bane]

Gotcha, thanks!

[glass light]

What kind of kit uses a katana, do you think?

[ancient pewter]

very out of date but i liked ashley's take on it in the sword saint kit

[worn bane]

Swordmaster, maybe. Sword Saint is a pretty cool name as well from the doc above.

[ancient pewter]

if i were to do some light homebrewing, a swordmaster kit (for me) would be
Swordmaster Kit Equipment: You wear medium armor and wield a medium weapon Stamina Bonus: +6 per echelon Speed Bonus: +2 Melee Damage Bonus: +2/+2/+2 Disengage Bonus: +1
then a signature (im no good at designing abilities)

actually thats statistically the same as dual wielder hmmm

perhaps a +0/+0/+4 with +3 speed, +1 disengage, and +3 stamina? i dont think thats covered by an existing kit

[worn bane]

That's the Swashbuckler kit but with 0/0/4

[ancient pewter]

😭

[worn bane]

How about +6 stamina and dump the +1 disengage?

[ancient pewter]

ngl a melee distance bonus would go hard

using spells to extend the distance of sword strikes

[worn bane]

The Soulforged subclass has something like that

[ancient pewter]

whats that

[ancient pewter]

oh right

yeah thats cool

[worn bane]

Did you mean for the Swordmaster kit or in general?

[ancient pewter]

in general

[worn bane]

Should I... Make an ability that makes you bigger?

Like 2x2

[ancient pewter]

this is annoying me now, i gotta find a stat bonus

+6 stamina, +1 melee distance, +0/+0/+4 melee damage, +2 speed

is this too similar to anything?

[worn bane]

I don't think so

Could see this as being a Naginata kit

[ancient pewter]

ehhhhh naginata's feel +1/+1/+1 to me

[worn bane]

Why?
Could also be Nodachi

[ancient pewter]

just kinda footsoldier kit

[worn bane]

I feel like 0/0/4 is a risk/reward vibe

[ancient pewter]

oh definately

i like +0/+0/+4 for the one cut

vibe

[worn bane]

Came up with this kit @ancient pewter

Just realized the damage of the signature is +2/+2/+2. Might just keep it that way and change kit bonus.

[glass light]

So, abilities that target "all enemies that __" typically have dangerous scaling power.

The limit of moving through enemies with only half of your speed (which is halved again because enemies are difficult terrain) makes it impossible for that "all enemies" targeting to blow up, but it also means that you can't use this unless your speed is at least 6 (you can't stop movement inside other creatures spaces). You won't be able to target 2 creatures until your speed is 12, which is pretty hard to achieve even with the +3 speed buff of the kit.

Is the intent to allow multiple targets for the ability? I think a Line area where you teleport to the end would work better for that use case. If moving through targets is the goal, is the current wording designed to be countered by slowed?

[hoary anvil]

The ability ignores the difficult terrain of enemies. So you can target up to 3 enemies by default.

Which is kind of insane. It's not common to get 3 enemies lined up like that so easily but even at just 2 targets it's more damage than any existing kit Nvm don't even need a straight line for this one. Just any 3 enemies adjacent in any formation

By the wording of it, you also target one creature, then the effect lets you shift and target more, so this needs the structure of something like Wrecking Ball or Phalanx-Breaker at least with "Target: Self" and the effect before the roll

[glass light]

God, why do i type before having coffee

I was happier thinking it wasn't allowing the broken scaling that mega-nerfed One Hundred Throats. An ability that can target multiple creatures and benefits from characteristic scaling is too strong, imo. If the point is to target multiple creatures, cap the damage.

[cunning harbor]

it is one point over budget

[ancient pewter]

ah ur right

never making homebrew late at night

[cunning harbor]

I think "Target: Special" would be better.

[cunning harbor]

Agreed that this shouldn't have characteristic scaling. But I think the number of enemies you can target is fine, any formation of 3 adjacent enemies is already hugely vulnerable to a 3 cube ability. Might need to nerf it a tad due to the mobility though.

[worn bane]

I agree. I nerfed it to 3 squares so it can target 2 creatures at most.

[worn bane]

Level 1 is done, by the way. If anyone wants a link send me a DM.
Will be opening a thread for the class once levels 1-3 are completed.

[worn bane]

IT IS DONE. #1381375764691161188
...Well, the first 3 levels are done.

[viscid sapphire]

I’m thinking of making leveling up a downtime activity

Because I want to encourage time skips between adventures and want to see players RPing their character getting stronger etc

How many project points should I make it? I’m hoping to make it so each new level takes longer to achieve

Also, if some one wants to spend time working on crafting for example instead of leveling up, that’s their prerogative!

[hoary anvil]

I don't think it's a good idea to encourage players to mix levels in the party (mixing it with other downtime will lead to FOMO and other feelsbads), but I do like the idea of leveling up as a downtime activity.

Assuming they still bank XP but don't level up until completing the project, you could do 5 x XP target, leading to 80 points for 1st level, 160 for 2nd, etc. You can adjust the multiplier depending on how high you want it to end up.

[viscid sapphire]

Oh I like that

Nice

And yeah the rule will be you can’t be more than 1 level higher

I very much doubt anyone will choose actively not to level up. It’s more there like, if you want to tell me instead of spending time enhancing your abilities you really wanna make a magic item, I ain’t gonna stop you. But you gotta be aware of that consequence

[worn bane]

Has anyone else noticed balance on 9 & 11 HR abilities is a little all over the place?
I noticed this recently because I've been trying to brew some higher HR abilities with those costs and it's hard to say what is the intended power level for them when so many of them are at seemingly wildly different power levels for the same cost.

[hoary anvil]

Yes. Especially with regards to the value of temporary Stamina and surges

I am hopeful for tweaks in the final release but who knows. The testing process has been rigorous but I'm sure some abilities might have slipped through the cracks

[worn bane]

It seems the testing process has been far less rigorous in E2 and above, honestly.
It's more than just "slipped through the cracks" as it feels in E1, but rather a consistent theme with 9 HR and 11 HR abilities, in my opinion.

Now to be fair this something that happens in most TTRPGs of this genre. Early levels are tested more than later levels.

[hoary anvil]

E1 got hit the most for sure but there have been many tests all up and down the level range. Ultimately I don't think the balance is so far off as to make the game unwieldy at higher levels — many players in this Discord have told battle stories of their high level play and had a great time (including me!). But some things are definitely still off

[worn bane]

Mhm, I don't think it's unwieldy, but there are a lot more overperformers and underperformers than in E1, is all I'm saying.

[meager arrow]

As a general reminder, we ask that people not post homebrew based off patreon content/until there's a licence that covers it (which will presumably come with the full release of the game). That does include house rules targeting things in presented in higher echelons of play.

(Have we been great at enforcing this, not really! But homebrew channels aren't unmoderated spaces, and I'm currently doing a sweep of them)

[worn bane]

To be clear, I wasn't making a homebrew based off Patreon content. I was talking about using higher echelon HR abilities as a reference for intended power level when homebrewing my own abilities. Is that still not allowed?

[meager arrow]

Probably allowed, provided that it isn't a suggested replacement for content presented in patreon materials, especially while there's a feedback survey open.

Does that make sense?

It was a very general reminder, not intended to be targetted, just wanted to make sure people in here were all on the same page.

[worn bane]

Yup, definitely.

[wicked brook]

Any feedback on these homebrew tier 1 titles? Two of the benefits are just perks or from other titles that seemed to fit.

[viscid sapphire]

I love gentlemen thief. Flashback is a great benefit

[cunning harbor]

I think you can probably remove the conditional on “some hospitality wouldn’t kill you”, it’ll be rare for enemies to be under 3 patience regardless.

And “You’re next” probably doesn’t need the HR cost.

[grim haven]

if "You're next" used a free triggered action, then it should keep the HR cost. But if it uses your triggered action for the round, then it shouldn't take 1 HR as well

Gentleman Thief is pretty great, that's a sick title.

[wicked brook]

I was waffling on the HR cost. I was looking at the maneuver from the Ratcatcher title and the level 3 censor ability to apply fear when judging for comparison.

[cunning harbor]

Finally set it up! Let me know if that time doesn't work for you. https://discord.com/channels/332362513368875008/1382952082830786682

[hoary anvil]

I'm in!

[hoary anvil]

@lilac igloo As a hobbyist RPG designer myself, what term do you think would be better than Intuition? I love collecting stat names

[lilac igloo]

I’m translating DS in my language and unfortunately the word for Intuition doesn’t have half of the meaning that it has in English. So I chose the word for Sense. You can sense the emotions, you can sense that something is off. It makes sense to me (pun not intentional) that Conduit would sense the will of their god, or that the Null would hone their senses, right? Feels more fitting than Intuition to me.

DS creatures don’t have Senses in a D&D sense, so it’s free to use

[hoary anvil]

Ahh understandable, especailly in another language. Ty for the reply. I have Sense as a stat in my Weird West PbtA hack 🙂

[indigo lodge]

AHA they changed the name for the corven's primordial storm

[quick quarry]

They heard you I see

[indigo lodge]

I'd be surprised if they actually keep tabs on this channel, but I'm vindicated nonetheless

[cunning harbor]

What was the initial gripe?

[indigo lodge]

kabatic winds are cold and the damage type is fire

[cunning harbor]

Ah, nice.

[indigo lodge]

turns out kabatic winds contribute to forest fires since they are so dry, which is what I thought was the reasoning, but they changed it so

[cunning harbor]

https://tenor.com/view/captain-holt-brooklyn-nine-nine-brooklyn99-captain-raymond-holt-andre-braugher-gif-13945912

[quick quarry]

Got a few new titles I'm preparing to hand out, looking for second opinions:

[deep meteor]

I remember initial discussions on the lycanthropy title, nice job it's really cool imo!

Curse slayer, I think depends on your target echelon but it feels a bit busted

Their one weakness feels too strong, maybe remove the "cannot be removed using end effect"? If you feel this makes it too weak, maybe allow re-application of the effect (by getting more of the item say 2 or 3). The wording on this one also needs some work ("a creature" -> "the creature", clarify what "name" means, etc)

Hey over here seems good, but i fear no villain seems too strong as well. Maybe restrict to villain actions by solo creatures, or reduce the benefits (e.g. one-time use per Victory)

But yeah, currently, seems a cut above 3rd echelon titles and very possibly surpasses 4th echelon titles (minus the characteristic boost)

[quick quarry]

Just confirming, Curse slayer you feel is too high? I'm looking to make 1st Echelon so need to find a way to reduce power if that's the case. I think Lycanthropy is in a good spot).

For curse slayer - there aren't many villian actions that call for tests or have potencies - so its a pretty niche benefit. For "Over Here" - I'm thinking I could make it a full ability that uses HR - that would probably temper that. And for 'Their only weakness" - I'm thinking I add a project point goal (say 100 points) to it - the idea is that if you a) know what your'e going to fight and have the time - you can at least get one condition on it that will last for 1 round (it'll still be save ends)

Unrelated - but another title I'm looking to get feedback on before I handout to my players - after their fight with War Dogs 😉

War Dog Nemesis
Prerequisite: You defeat a leader or solo creature with the War Dog keyword, such as a ground commander.

*Watch Out!: *Once per round, when you reduce a creature to 0 stamina, you can use a free triggered action to reduce any damage that triggers on their death by half.
*Belay That Order: *When an adjacent enemy uses an ability that targets one of their allies, you can make a free strike against them as a triggered action.
*Fire in the Hole: *When you are targeted by an area ability, you can shift 1 square and become prone as a free triggered action. If your new position is outside the area, you are unaffected by the ability.

[deep meteor]

Yeah I was referring to curse slayer as too strong. I agree lycanthropy is in a good place.

• Their one weakness: I really like the project points change, I think that makes it much more reasonable.
• Over here: fine as-is IMO.
• I fear no villain: Sorry, I confused villain action with actions that have a malice cost. In that case probably fine as-is!

War dog nemesis is great

[white moat]

this might be my most deranged concepting

my elementalist player expressed dissatisfaction with the current way it works so i'm slowly piecing together a rework idea

[white moat]

i'm calling it there for the day but i actually feel really really good about this

[cunning harbor]

ooh, I kinda like a different element than the last one

[cunning harbor]

That's a pretty big buff to Disciple of fire

[white moat]

Yes

well

i mean

not really

you're losing a bunch of stuff

you dont get:
fire immunity equal to 5 + your level in the class
ignoring fire immunity
surges that deal fire damage

well you do get the middle one just a couple levels later and a bit weaker, and all elementalists instead

[cunning harbor]

ignoring fire damage and fire immunity are both situational

There aren't a ton of enemies with either

ignore fire immunity is more "don't be useless against that enemy" than an actual bonus

2 surges every turn, is a lot

[glass light]

That is so many surges, yeah

[cunning harbor]

for comparison, most classes get roughly one surge per turn in terms of a damage buff at level 2

surges equal to victories roughly lines up with that

then this just triples that.

If you wanted to buff it for moving the ignore damage immunity to a class feature (which I do approve of), I'd just make it 1+victories surges.

[glass light]

What does the Elementalist player dislike about Essence in its current form? I'm not sure what you're building for here

[white moat]

i had it like that originally before i did this big rework lol

[white moat]

that's not really true

the first three combat encounters are, definitionally, the most common ones between respites and starting with 0 and 1 and 2 dont line up with the 3 round combat ideal for DS

also the goal is to make an ability as hype as the void elementalist portals (or the concept of the green elementalist wildshape)

[glass light]

This sounds like they'd enjoy a Pyro talent

[white moat]

explicitly not

they want to use a bunch of elements

and they enjoy the controller playstyle

they loooove practical magic for example

[glass light]

I mean for the Talent heroic resource texture

[white moat]

ye maybe

[glass light]

I think that could be a well of design to tap for a fire elementalist: play with enough fire, it can burn you too

[white moat]

i dont know if that hits the fantasy

id argue thats a core defining thematic difference between a fire elementalist and a pyro talent

the pyro talent is less controlled, whereas an elementalist is all about that control

anyway i wanted to buff persisting to make it much more worthwhile because i think its cool but i agree with the player that it seems kinda rough right now
and then i wanted to change the essence generation to encourage the gameplay i actually want to see (i.e. persisting abilities, and focusing on the elemental fantasy)

[deep meteor]

Honestly this all really just sounds like your player wants a straight damage buff? Which like fair enough, there's not a high-power mage class in draw steel

But that's explicitly by design, similar to e.g PF2E casters. They sacrifice damage for versatility and battlefield control

I think there's ways to tweak the elementalist to get it closer to a 5e blaster caster, just be real hesitant to hand out surges and essence

I personally wouldn't approach this by swapping out feats that grant utility or damage reduction for damage feats. IMO you should focus on replacing existing damage/control powers with similar ones that your player prefers

[white moat]

non

they want to persist stuff their issue is they just dont feel good doing it

[white moat]

to be clear

i didnt change the 2nd level fire elementalist feature to swap out utility for pure damage

i changed it because it's aggressively boring

hodgepodge of random stuff

you compare it to turning into an animal or void elementalist portals which are sick as hell and then its like, three surges per respite and a bunch of random incidental benefits

so i subbed it for one big dramatic thing since the fire elementalist is meant to be the damage spec for elementalist. not because the class is meant to be all about damage but because thats the fire elementalists thing and the ability needs to be cool so a cool fire elementalist thing is probably about damage

but i wanted to hit that controller/support beat, hence it boosting an ally too :p

[quick quarry]

Ooh! Here's an idea - just came to me; but what about a feature that allows the Fire Ele to plop down pyres that persist; somewhat similar to the void elementalist. But rather than portals you can move through, they are beacons that light up the area, and allow you to attack through?

[white moat]

also a very intriguing idea

[quick quarry]

AND - they work with smoldering step at 5th level

[white moat]

i like the surge idea a lot but thats a hype idea as well

[quick quarry]

What about this: maneuver to plop down a pyre - it does damage when entered (helps with control), and you can can attack through it. Finally, you can extinquish it to gain a surge?

[white moat]

ok thats also a hype idea

my question is whats your goal here

are you trying to get me to change the ability from the surge generating one

or are you just inspired

[quick quarry]

Just inspired: you said you were looking for something more akin to transform or void portals

[white moat]

as cool as, not the same, but yeah

[quick quarry]

so, had a thought. Maybe I'll flesh it out for myself here and post it later for funzies

[white moat]

id probably avoid making it a maneuver because that eats into other maneuvers you want to do esp as a fire elementalist

but animal shape is a maneuver so its not like, unprecedented

[quick quarry]

true. Thinking about it - might feel better if you create a pyre around a creature you kill. Reduce to 0 - Woosh! roaring fire that lasts until end of encounter, or you use the fire to power up

[white moat]

setting things on fire is a strong fire fantasy

[white moat]

id be wary of attaching it to that because it impacts your utility heavily depending on the encounter layout

really bad against solos

[quick quarry]

I'd just replace the last part of Disciple of fire - keep the first bit

Hmm. Creature or object then?

[white moat]

creature or object is fun

could just be at the start of your turn, could be when you use a fire heroic ability

[quick quarry]

yeah, few options to be sure

[white moat]

could be that one springs into existence near something you hit with fire damage

[white moat]

the first bit of disciple of fire offends me with how much its a bunch of random stuff that the subclass 'needed to have' with no cohesion

[deep meteor]

IIRC elementalist has one of or the widest distribution of restrained condition among the classes. Watch out for generating surge if you want to increase damage, as they might just become a restrain bot instead.

[white moat]

solos get two turns and can force end conditions, im not that worried about it

[white moat]

i will say the second bit is pretty cool which is why i thought the surge boost would be neat

the idea of gaining a bunch of surges right at the start is very evocative

my problem is just doing so little during the first few combats

and also being one and done when generally DS scales up as combat progresses but quibbles

[quick quarry]

while the bonus fire damage, immunity ignore, and fire resistance are certainly not flashy - I do think there a core part of the fire mage fantasy IMO.

[white moat]

pick the elemental resistance ward
and then i shunted immunity ignore into the base class so everyone can do it

[quick quarry]

That...isn't a bad idea 🤔

[white moat]

this might be a bit mathsy though idk

worst case just make it ignore all immunity

[indigo lodge]

What makes you say that? Fire mages are seems more often victims to their own powers than immune from them

[quick quarry]

That is also true - I suppose you could say they are either immune, or ...uh...flammable 😅

[white moat]

also you can just attach it as a rider to fire abilities if need be like they've done :V

[deep meteor]

Seems to usually be about them hurting people close to them, rather than them hurting themselves tho... Avatar, full metal alchemist, even league of legends lmao

I think there's examples of what you're mentioning in grittier, less heroic fiction though

[indigo lodge]

I think you’re right, I struggle to think of an example myself

[hoary anvil]

Okay, people have talked a lot about a superhero hack for this game and I want to think about it. The one thing I haven't wrapped my head around is, is it still class-based? Most tactical superhero games I know of are a lot more flexible in their character-building and power selection because of the source material.

So would you have a Speedster class, a Brick class, a Pyro class, and be hyper specific? Or some kind of way to break up the system into modular chunks for selection?

There's no right answer obviously, I'm just curious what folks have been imagining

[ancient pewter]

keeping with the strict class balance would be core for me

im a bit of a sicko so i would actually prefer iconic premades

sorta like bonds

ya know how the tactician is The Professional?

[hoary anvil]

Right

[glass light]

I think you'd just have more classes

[ancient pewter]

apply the sorta psuedo persinality vibe to all the classes

[glass light]

You could maybe expand the Kits

[hoary anvil]

The reason I shy away from this is that the class list would expand tremendously, quickly

[glass light]

I like that sort of thing, myself

[hoary anvil]

The core classes pack a lot of ideas in and differentiate by smaller subclass choices. But hero stuff is usually waaay more laterally broad

If you lean into the more defined character as Jas said then it's easier. Like Eat the Reich

[glass light]

Another tack you could take is how Cypher System does it. Break classes into a broader type (Warrior, Explorer, Speaker, Adept) and then build on your "Focus" as the other half, the 'special power that your character acts through'

The core mechanics to keep are obviously the Power Roll, Victories, Stamina, and Heroic Resource loops. After that I'd say you can remix the DS chassis quite a bit

[hoary anvil]

Got a lot I want to do before I tackle this but I do want to try it at some point

[glass light]

I've played high level Nulls, Tacticians, Furies, Shadows, and Beasthearts in Draw Steel, and I always get the superhero rush

[worn bane]

I would just reflavor the existing classes and call it a day.

[hoary anvil]

That might work for a subset of superhero ideas but that wouldn't do it for me

[glass light]

I could already build the Justice League and the Avengers in DS, no issue, but if I wanted an overhaul I'd sink my teeth in deep

[hoary anvil]

I want more superhero-specific abilities and a rework of kits to fit

[vale panther]

I would personally be inclined to take a DS-inspired 'first principles' approach. Assemble a list of every existing superhero you want to use as inspiration and sort them into buckets (bonus points for action figures in literal buckets but a whiteboard would do fine) based on whatever arbitrary qualities you think separates them. Dump out the buckets a few times and try different categorizations. Is it motivation that separates heroes? Personality? combat role (tank/dps/comms/movement)? when you've tried a few different kinds of buckets and found a categorization system that feels 'right' to you, turn those buckets into classes.

[hoary anvil]

I could see kits defining your power source, like tech/magic/training/etc

Yeah my gut would be broad classes with lots of subclasses

I've done a lot of small RPG design but I don't think I have the chops to make a modular system lol

[glass light]

It's leaning back in the direction of multiclassing

Yeehaw

[hoary anvil]

Okay, second question: what about Pokémon, the other common hack brought up? I think Willy mentioned controlling multiple heroes at once but that honestly wasn't my first thought. I would expect each player to roleplay as a trainer and control one monster in combat, but of course that doesn't allow for creature swapping and individual player team comps and such. Is it just Oops, All Summoners, the game?

[glass light]

I think the abilities would be the pokemon? How involved would trainers be otherwise?

[ancient pewter]

i dont have much interest in pokemon generally but i would personally prefer a more mystery dungeon setup, which lends itself better to current draw steel, i feel

[hoary anvil]

That's a totally valid way to do it, I would want a trainer aspect but yeah that would be much easier to map

[hoary anvil]

That makes a lot of sense actually, hadn't considered downsizing the concept to the ability level. Maybe you assign abilities to your squad of, Idk, up to three mons, and then you can only use the abilities of your active mon

[glass light]

I've never played a pokemon game for more than a couple hours, but I watch the TV show as a kid. I never got the impression the trainers were doing much beyond ferrying animals from fight to fight

[deep meteor]

IMO summoner doesn't work well because the HR cost is tied to the pokemon you're sending out. I'd much prefer HR tied to specific abilities the pokemon is using

I suspect the beastheart will be a much better framework

[hoary anvil]

The trainers are the ones providing tactical oversight and command of the battlefield, and commanding the mons to do stupid stuff that breaks the fight rules lol (use Thunderbolt on its horn!). So mechanically that's basically just the role of the player at the table, I would just still want there to be a trainer character to roleplay.

Plus there's swapping out mons mid-fight to allow for different strategies, but maybe that's just covered by it being a team game instead of 1-on-1s now

[glass light]

HMMMMM
Different trainers use different styles to inspire and direct their pokemon, right? What if that's the Heroic Resource variation? And Pokemon come with a boutique Action and Maneuver at first level, then learn more over time, split between their track and their trainer?

One trainer uses Trust, another uses Resolve

[vale panther]

I would totally run it as each player is one Pokemon and the definition of the Party is the trainer. That wouldn't operate on the exact same combat model of Pokemon, but DS isn't a JRPG so we shouldn't expect it to operate like one, right? Assume play is a combination of socialization opportunities, exploration content, and setpiece challenge battles in a bespoke arena.

[hoary anvil]

Sick and cool idea, noting this down for experimentation

[hoary anvil]

Yeah I don't need it to run the exact same. I'm totally fine with trainers being the characters out-of-combat and mons being the characters in-combat

[glass light]

PokeMonster Hunter

[deep meteor]

Drawmon gotta catch em all

[hoary anvil]

...not gonna say the title I just thought of

[deep meteor]

https://tenor.com/view/pokemon-ash-ketchum-pokeball-pokeballs-gif-5634823

Steelballs ^

[quick quarry]

One more title - curious if anyone has any thoughts on this one:

[deep meteor]

Sort of overlaps in fantasy with Heist Hero? But regardless, I think the first two are great!

Nimblestep too strong imo, the only titles that grant ancestry traits are 3rd echelon – this is handing out the polder's (debatably) best one, presumably at an earlier echelon, while avoiding polder drawbacks.

For phantom menace, it's super evocative, I'm just personally not a fan of doubling the amount of effort the players and the director need to put into resolving a group/montage test. Might be better to just auto-success one round, or +1 round like chronopathy talent "ease the hours", or something more basic to keep the game flowing.

[grim haven]

Yeah I agree on Phantom Menace

....Wait, Blind Spot is weird, what does that do?

[quick quarry]

Ok, last thing, gotta get to bed - but ended up working on this for some reason, just had an itch 😉 - some tweaks I'm probably going to keep for Elementalists in my game:

[quick quarry]

@deep meteor funny enough, that was the first one I looked to use, so probably will go back to that.

As for Blind Spot - it allows allies to hide in combat when they would otherwise be spotted. Its not as useful if they are surrounded by bad guys - but 1 or 2 means you can potentially distract someone while your ally hides on their turn.

[grim haven]

.....OH. Okay. Got it. That is pretty situational, but then all of the benefits from this Title are, so

Well, Don't Be There isn't super situational, that's pretty broadly applicable, even if you don't successfully hide

[ancient pewter]

why does no more than a breeze give temp stamina?

i would think a void ability would focus on mobility, control, or debuffs

[grim haven]

They're phasing, I assume. Phase through attacks?

[ancient pewter]

i mean from a mechanical standpoint

if it were me (and it isnt) i would have this ability give them +2 speed and/or concealment

[quick quarry]

Real reason: - player who took it back during early beta was really attached to the damage immunity feature they cut, so I figured temp stamina was a more feasible trade. The idea is that with walking through walls, you can also mitigate some attacks. Players really like it, and I haven't had too much issues with it, so I'm keeping that one for sure

[ancient pewter]

fair nuff!

any instanteous evacuation reworks? /half joke

[quick quarry]

I haven't played with that one enough to really say. The earth stuff I'm more spitballing based on reading, so its a bit more up in the air. But some discussion earlier about lack of 'fun things' that compared to "There is no space between" got me thinking. So now - Earth can pop up little pillars which can provide cover and materials to knock creatures into; and Fire creatures pyres that burn targets (and would allow teleportation with smoldering step later on)

[ancient pewter]

i love that btw

fire elementalist ignoring immunity is something i wish was interfaced with more

[quick quarry]

Its why I threw it on the Acolyte feature, as it seems very minor except for a handful of monsters

[ancient pewter]

blah blah blah finaljas goes on about damage typing again

[white moat]

earth summoning walls is 🔥

[quick quarry]

Figures it helps to have something to force people into

Motivate Earth is still really good, but is a main action, so it can take some setup. This offers a little quicker option, though more limited

[cunning harbor]

I think the cost of it probably isn’t worth the 1 square high? A 1 high wall rarely provides actual LOE blocking. I’d make it up to reason as a mirror to Ripples in the Earth.

[quick quarry]

That I wasn't sure of, but was willing to entertain. What about 2 squares flat?

[cunning harbor]

Would certainly be better. 2 squares means that you actually need to run up to jump over them, and that you are still shielded from enemies with high ground.

[proper shell]

im in the ideas stage of another Heavy Weapons kit. im thinking Medium Armor, Heavy Weapon, either +2/+2/+2 or +0/+0/+4. and then one or two of the following:

• its a double target strike
• imposes a bane on melee strikes against you and adjacent allies
• target(s) cannot make opportunity attacks until the end of their next turn

this is meant to sort of simulate the role greatswords played in irl warfare. the biggest problem i have, however, is the name. i cant really think of what that infantry role would have been called for a greatsword user, and calling this kit the "Zweihander" kit would feel a little weird since Heavy Weapon doesnt always = big sword (even though the Sword and Board kit commits this "sin" already)

Linebreaker? Linebacker?

[white moat]

linebreaker goes crazy hard as a kit name

though that feels like it would push people out of position

[deep meteor]

Cleaver? Reaper? Though frankly I still prefer linebreaker

[white moat]

honestly cleaver for this goes pretty hard

but then like

also make another one called the linebreaker bc the name goes crazy

its a dope name just idk if its for this one

ive been having thoughts about wording after running games for a while now, including for a null and most recently a fury stacking stuff into the moon and a tactician with frontal assault
i suspect the game in general would be better served if most stuff that granted benefits off damage cared about it being abilities/strikes specifically
is that deranged
thundering imbuement being strikes only helps balance it a ton, magic items only benefitting strikes helps stop the crazy aoe scaling and helps bolster strikes in the first place bc they kinda need it
would have prevented the infinite null damage combo in the first place
like you can still have magic items that boost aoe damage just like
as a specific thing
it just feels like so many of the wordings dont account for repeated small instances of damage in a way that results in chip damage being egregious
(im looking at you null and gravitic disruption )

in my head like
the easiest wording is 'rolled damage' (for stuff that wants to include aoes and strikes both, like tactician mark etc)
but that excludes stuff like practical magic, which i think should work
but i think practical magic miiight be the only example of non-rolled damage that i think should work so it might be worth the sacrifice?

maybe rolled ability so you can include stuff like knockback or the talent sig that shifts but doesnt technically do direct damage

[deep meteor]

Sorry can you give a specific example of an ability/treasure combo that results in what you're referring to?

Not sure I follow

[white moat]

which instance because theres a few

[deep meteor]

Just any one example. Off the top of my head, shadow multi-strike abilities with caustic alchemy surges is a bit busted, but I'm curious if there's more

[white moat]

off turn stuff like censor edicts and damaging terrain like wall of fire proccing mark multiple times in a single turn
null's gravitic disruption having some truly crazy damage output because its really easy to do a small amount of damage on any given turn which stacks to infinity

thundering enchantment with weapon attack aoes is kinda my guys are being bullied
im not as stressed about that one nesc but its part of the pattern

tacticians frontal assault has kinda the same thing as gravitic disruption going on but at least its 7 cost rather than 1

[deep meteor]

Gravitic disruption only procs first time in a turn though?

I don't get where infinite stacking comes from

[white moat]

sorry, it doesnt literally stack to infinity (any more)

it used to

but its very effective at dealing a looot of damage for very very little cost

i was being a bit facetious

[deep meteor]

Gotcha haha I don't mean to be pedantic, I think essentially, I'm curious if you can think of an example that applies in lots of different situations?

Like the null gravitic disruption is pretty situational, so I think it's fair enough that if the players get the right setup they can do a bunch of free damage

[white moat]

i just listed a bunch ive encountered just running my own stuff and participating in some playtests

[white moat]

its not situational at all

the situation is 'you are a null and you are next to an enemy'

and heaven forbid if theres minions (which should be like half your combat encounters lol) you can ping enemies into each other to cascade the damage (since one collides into the other, deals damage to both, which then lets you move the other one, etc)
and thats 1/turn not 1/round

(this isnt getting into the fact it stacks with hakaan's forced movement bonus or the big vs little forced movement thing either)

[deep meteor]

Right but it's not "deal 2 damage" it's "slide them 2 squares". Plenty of cases that end up dealing damage would require sliding them right off your null field

[white moat]

sliding 2 squares is better than dealing 2 damage

[deep meteor]

I agree it's more useful, my point is moreso that it's not a guarantee of (#turns per round) damage to the enemy just for standing next to you

[white moat]

youre trying to tell me this doesnt happen when i have experienced it basically every time i have ran for a null

and maybe thats just me being really unlucky

but idk

it sure doesnt seem that way

anyway this is a huge tangent from the original point anyway

i think more stuff specifically benefitting just strikes would be neat

[grim flume]

Metakinetics get forced move damage immunity equal to level at level 2. You can move enemies into yourself.

[white moat]

and/or abilities that roll for stuff that should include aoes

i understand why there was a push to default to including all instances of damage (cinematic) but it makes chip damage soo weird

judgement alone

[deep meteor]

Afaik it's immunity to forced move damage from THEM being moved, not from enemies moving into them.

[grim flume]

I would love to see how you got to that conclusion. Maybe I missed something.

[deep meteor]

I think I follow what you mean regarding treasure effects applying to all enemies in an AoE weapon attack. Agreed perhaps restricting to Strike makes more sense narratively and balance-wise

[deep meteor]

"Whenever you take damage from being force moved, you reduce that damage by an amount equal to your level."

It's not "when forced movement results in your taking damage", it states "you ___ being force moved", so the Null is the one that needs to be force moved from my reading

Just any forced movement is not good enough

[grim flume]

That's different from my copy. Was there an update since December?

[quick quarry]

Claymore?

[deep meteor]

Ohh there was yeah! Here you go 🙂 https://www.patreon.com/posts/130184890

(or if you prefer to search) it's in the patreon titled "Updated Hero Book and a Playtest Adventure!"

[grim flume]

Thanks!

[proper shell]

nah thats another specific type of sword

i think i'll stick with Linebreaker

[deep meteor]

The sword in question

[grim flume]

Call it something like Bodyguard. Big weapons like that were generally bodyguard weapons. Maybe the kit ability deals rather high damage (6/8/12 to 2 targets), but the targets can choose to shift 2-3 in a direction of your choice after the attack in return for a double bane of the power roll.

[grim flume]

I did not realize that the zip file included a rules update.

[cunning harbor]

The Guisarmier also sort of does as well. I wouldn't sweat it, Zweihander fits well. ||But Linebreaker also slaps so that gets my vote.||

[proper shell]

now i just gotta decide on a name for the signature

[cunning harbor]

Does this creating a floating shimmering orb?

[deep meteor]

I was talking to a friend about skill specialization in draw steel. Namely, players seem to be "too good" at too many, often overlapping, things. This also leads into some of the past discussions regarding skill/montage tests being too easy and requiring some fiddling to stay interesting. We miss the specialization afforded in a skill system like PF2E's

Here's the proposal we came up with:

Each skill gives +1. At 1st echelon, you can invest up to +2 in one skill. This maximum increases by 1 at every echelon.

[ancient pewter]

perhaps this could be keyworded?

[deep meteor]

So by 4th echelon, you can get a max of +5 in a skill

[deep meteor]

Oh definitely better ways to write it haha just shooting ideas rn

Or do you mean something else by keyworded

[ancient pewter]

my dumbass wants to be cheeky and say proficency

but theres prob a more draw steel word

[deep meteor]

I mean the PF2E terms are pretty heroic tbf. Untrained -> trained -> expert -> master -> legendary

Missing one, need 6 total (+0 through +5, but yeah)

[ancient pewter]

isnt this system like

just applying a "checkmark" to a skill?

and it gets an extra bonus?

or am i misunderstanding

[deep meteor]

So currently it's a checkmark system, you either have proficiency in a skill or you don't. In this proposed system, it's a value that increases per point invested

[ancient pewter]

so its a point-invesment thing?

[deep meteor]

So at level 1 if you get two interpersonal skills, you could invest one in brag and one in flirt, or both in brag

[ancient pewter]

oh i see!

whenever you "gain" a new skill, u can put that into a skill u already know?

[deep meteor]

Yes exactly!

[ancient pewter]

interesting

i feel like that would interface better in a system with less skills

the way i was imagining it i was thinking like

[deep meteor]

With echelon caps so you're not too busted. Also since you'd need to invest two points to get the current baseline +2 into a skill, players are encouraged to specialize and be good at more specific things. Also encourages handing out skill points as a quest reward during the adventure

[ancient pewter]

each x levels you increase your [proficency rating] in a skill

maybe like every 2 levels

[ancient pewter]

i like that latter point

[deep meteor]

Ohh that's interesting too. I think it would require reducing the number of skills people get, since atm it's already so easy to succeed in most montage/skill challenges

[ancient pewter]

i think that has to do with the distribution of success/failure/success with consequence

rather than like, skill math

i just worry that a player (and this is for ur table, for sure)

could invest into a couple skills or smth

then feel like "oh i cant do shit"

ive noticed players in other games with this sorta system (and even in DS) try and finagle their skills when it doesnt make sense

[quick quarry]

So, I was initiall of this mind, but I really think how you show your dedication to a 'skill' is not by the bonus; its by things like Perks - thats where you develop your characters true expertise. Part of the issue is just that game assumes that your characters generally can try most things and have a reasonable chance of success, even with a low stat and now Skill. You can have a 0 on the roll, no skill, and still succeed on a hard roll more than 5% of the time

[ancient pewter]

i think its a definately salient point that montage tests are too easy

[deep meteor]

Ohh so you're saying restricting skills would increase how often players try to finagle? That's a fair point

[ancient pewter]

yeah

happend ALL THE TIME when i ran bitd

people would max two actions

then try and finagle every action roll to be those

[deep meteor]

Agreed perks are supposed to indicate mastery in a skill. I just think how the math currently works out, skills are still generally more impactful than perks, even though perks are WAY more fun and interesting

[ancient pewter]

perks are very cool

i love perks

[quick quarry]

same - that's of course why I made more 😏

[ancient pewter]

i wonder how much difference it would make to just scale skills down to +1

[quick quarry]

personally, I feel like +1 might make them feel too irrelevant

[ancient pewter]

yeah thats fair too

[deep meteor]

Yeah, and still with the same issue "here are my 4 skills I really care about, and here's some random crap I can use my last 3 skill investments"

Which is why I sort of like adding some scaling

Although maybe just tossing out some skills and replacing with perks is a good middle-ground

Maybe sacrifice two skills to get a perk? EDIT: or just 1-1, but limit how many

[quick quarry]

Something one of my players reminded me of too is - as a Director, you can adjust the outcomes of many type of skill tests even WITHIN a power roll. For things that are lore based, or more vague - you can still tune the final result a bit if the roll is a 13 vs a 16. They might both be successes, but one might have a 🤏 more

[ancient pewter]

but we're talking about a band of 5 numbers for tier 2, and 4 numbers for tier 3

but ya know, pf2e issue

of +1 or +2 making or breaking a roll

[quick quarry]

It WOULD be good if you could potentially have something you get in lieu of skills for your culture, I'll say that.

[ancient pewter]

im confused by what ur saying here

[quick quarry]

Its a weird tangent comment, but basic idea is that when I'm making a ruling on the results of say, a successful role from a player's test (say they rolled a 16 for a reason lore test), I might be tempted to tell them a bit more about something than if they rolled a 13. Both would have useful info if it was a success, but I could see giving a bit more to reward that higher roll.

That said, this isn't something I would recommend everyone do - just my own idiosyncracy

[ancient pewter]

interesting, thats something i hadnt considered

[quick quarry]

Its soemthing I think more of after watching BLeeM and how he runs his games - he likes to give a bit more weight to the narrative results and expounds on the differences between smaller probability ranges

[charred gale]

@ancient pewter an option you could consider is that instead of higher ranked proficiency increasing the numerical bonus to skills, it could mitigate the result of a consequence. Or perhaps a combination of numerical bonus and consequence mitigation.

Give me a minute I’ll draft a table

[charred gale]

Too wordy, I'll have to screen shot it

Anyways, consider this a very rough draft. I don't think this is in usable shape. It's just a sketch of the territory.

[charred gale]

The theory being that consequences have some more bite to them, especially if you’re unskilled. But become less of a problem the more ranks of proficiency you have.

I ended up including one +1 skill bump to avoid over complicating the table with different severity of consequences. It’s probably still too complicated.

I’m not entirely sure 0-5 ranks of proficiency are necessary. (Why not 1/echelon?) But it’s a fine place to start.

[deep meteor]

I think this is interesting! I like consequences to be a bit more dynamic though, so I don't know how much a player stat should affect this. Also there's less "interfacing" so to speak from the player pov

But in general this is already a super helpful chart to handle consequences

[deep meteor]

It is 1/echelon! It's just that 1st echelon gets 2 possible investments in a skill so players can specialize in something. Again the problem statement is:

1. Montage/skill challenges are too easy because players have too many bonuses in too much stuff
2. Players don't really care about half their bonuses and are just sort of filling out whatever

[charred gale]

I lost the plot a bit and got focused on what skill progression could look like, and just took the upgrade/every 2 levels suggestion. On 2d10, bonus creep can really degenerate play, so that’s why I embarked on tying consequence severity to it. But there’s no reason this chart couldn’t be reworked to function some other way. Maybe like “position” does in FitD games.

When it comes to montages specifically, @ jamesdark1 had some good thoughts here: https://discord.com/channels/332362513368875008/1382553369289429123

I worked out what I feel is a decent rule of thumb as well here: https://discord.com/channels/332362513368875008/1366520689628287097. Unfortunately I won’t have a real world playtest of this until, thursday (maybe).

No reason you couldn’t use consequence severity in place of or in conjunction with either method.

[ancient pewter]

i tried ur alternate difficulty montage test and enjoyed it

ultimate DS's model suffers from the same issue bitd suffers from, namely numerical bonuses erroding the risk of consequences

[quick quarry]

Quick question, but was there a list someone put together that had a list of possible consequences for tests? I vaguely recall that

[worn bane]

Yes, I did

[cunning harbor]

I think a good way to make montages more difficult is specific challenges.

If you let players invent the problem, they’ll invent one they have a tool to solve.

[ancient pewter]

i followed the book's example (one of two possible characteristics for a test, then a list of five or so possible skills that i will accept) but i just dont think the math is on the side of the director

[ancient pewter]

more thoughts about ranges - are there any solutions people have found for the fury's lack of range?

it seems like most classes have a solution in some way or another for range

whether thats by more speed, ranged + melee keyword strikes, or mobility options

[quick quarry]

Throw your friends?! Throw your enemies?

[ancient pewter]

what do u mean?

[quick quarry]

sorry, poor attempt at humor.

[ancient pewter]

ah, im sorry 🙇‍♂️

i cant read humor well online

[quick quarry]

Homebrew answers - I had an idea for last ditch Range increase

Something like - allow ranged strikes to increase range by 5, at the cost of a double bane

simulating a 'long range' option for arrows and stuff

[vagrant mantle]

The game seems like it would love that moment of "it's a million to one shot, but it just might work" (therefore it is a certainty to happen)

[ancient pewter]

lmfao

none of its abilities have the ranged keyword tho

[quick quarry]

I mean - free strike is there

Otherwise, new abilities are needed

Berserker needs a 'throw object' ability, that's for sure

[ancient pewter]

if hellcharger helm didnt exist i would say give its effect to fury

[quick quarry]

Actually, I can see a few options: Berserker "Throw Improvised Weapon"; Reaver "Throw weapon - but more like small axes, and seems planned", and Stormwight is "elemental breath attack"

[ancient pewter]

thats a cool idea

would require either swapping out abilities tho, i think?

[quick quarry]

Well, you'd have to add them yes; but that's the opportunity cost for players to make - ranged options worth picking?

[indigo lodge]

I think this is more an issue with creature and encounter design than a character option issue, I enjoy my characters with well defined weaknesses

[ancient pewter]

i think its just a weakness that none of the other classes have haha

to my knowledge at least!

are there any other classes that struggle with this?

[quick quarry]

I mean - that's not a bad thing - that's the fun asymettry of design

[ancient pewter]

thats a fair point

i guess my question is like, how does fury make up for that weakness?

what strength justifies that weakness

[indigo lodge]

crickets

though I don't find the fury lacking in any area besides range, I haven't played enough of the other classes to know how they compare, someone else might have the answer

[ancient pewter]

reaver gets a mobility trait, boren gets +1 size and melee range, corven and raden gets bonus disengage, and vuken gets a speed bonus

....so actually it feels like its just berserker 😭

just sorta talking to myself, heed me no mind

[indigo lodge]

wouldn't berserker's 2nd level feature count as mobility?

I've always thought it was really potent

[quick quarry]

Berserker gets Bounder at 5th level, that's one

[ancient pewter]

i mean it doesnt increase ur speed while charging

anyone can charge, berserker just can do heroics or signatures after charging

[indigo lodge]

i see, so it's more a damage feature than a mobility feature

[ancient pewter]

quick question about bounder actually

does that mean ur jump distance can exceed ur speed?

[indigo lodge]

nah lol