Advice on thread network instability

[craggy kernel]

First of all, current setup

-wired apple tv 4k gen2 as main apple hub and thread border router
-3 total apple homepods and homepod minis
-ha skyconnect
-ikea dirigera hub

Those make up my primary thread network. I also have 3 aqara devices (hub, thermostat, doorbell) on a separate network. Can't tell if allowing them to join would help or hurt.

Lastly I just recently added the dirigera and intended to not include it as part of the main network, but it joined automatically. I'm fine resetting its thread network to form its own if that is determined to be the problem. I'd prefer not to use it at all but I already had it lying around and my opinion is the new ikea stuff gets more functionality using it (at least until they expose binding on their stuff!).

Now that that's out of the way...

I frequently have issues where a routing device will drop offline and, depending on how it was being used in the network, take a block of devices down with it.

I frequently experience an issue where Apple Home can see devices are online, recognize if a state has changed, but cannot be used to change the state of any of them. Meaning if I turn a light off using HA, Apple will update to show it as off. But if I try to turn the same light off using HK, the icon spins for a bit, the device briefly switches to showing offline, then the state in HK goes back to showing what it was before. Nothing ever happens on the device itself. To combat this, I have removed many of the Matter-connected devices from HK and then exposed them back through HA. HA is never unable to control them (unless of course they are offline due to issue 1). But this does sort of defeat the purpose of Matter imo. And just for clarity, this is specific to MOT stuff. No wifi devices have issues.

I appreciate you taking the time to read and offer any expertise. I've been patient with the whole thing but the WAF is starting to decrease. And some things I set up in the kids' rooms to be "cool" I think they just find annoying haha.

So...questions:

1. Before I get into my own ideas, does anything jump out at anyone?
2. Currently running HA in a proxmox VM. Does thread, and even Matter for that...matter, run better in HA on bare metal? Would HA green be a good purchase?
3. I'm thinking of running my main thread network using HA only. Then HK, aqara, ikea whatever can be on a separate one and not interfere. To separate them, would it work to leave HA where it is on the network originally created by Apple, then reset all the Apple devices and the ikea so they form new networks? Resetting the HA network means pairing 175 or whatever devices again. Don't really want to lol.
4. What options are there for cost effective TBRs which could be used throughout the house to strengthen the Thread mesh? Ethernet or wifi. I'd prefer to order from amazon lol but let's just say something that wouldn't take 7 weeks to reach the midwest US.

[stray otter]

Try it without the HA OTBR and without the Dirigera Hub. On GitHub I read that the Dirigera causes such issues. My personal experience with HA OTBR and Apple TBRs in the mix is not very good. So, try it and you will see, if that solves your issues. I have 7 Apple Thread Border Routers (2 hardwired AppleTVs, 5 HomePods) and 75 Matter over Thread devices from EVE, Aqara and Philips Hue. It’s rock stable.

You shouldn’t have more than one Thread network.

[craggy kernel]

I'm not sure what to do about multiple thread networks existing. Especially if having different brands combined can cause issues. Can't turn off the broadcasts in aqara, ikea, Amazon (which I didn't even mention but have a couple unused).

Will look at what you suggested, but if I'm going to end up with just one primary - it is likely going to be OTBR. I have some inovelli, and other stuff, that exposes options only HA can see.

[shrewd crow]

You can have full connectivity and control of matter devices in ha with only Apple TBR and no otbr.

Maybe I missed it. Are you using stable HA otbr and matter server or the beta versions of either?

The stable versions of both are less consistent, robust and worse for multi admin ability for most users.

[craggy kernel]

Good question. I'm on the beta of Matter. Didn't realize there was a OTBR beta so not on that one. I'll flip that switch when I get home.

[craggy kernel]

This is where I find myself getting tripped up on how to think about how this all fits together.
Doing this without OTBR would mean commissioning devices to Apple first, then generating a Matter code and adding to HA? As in HA would be able to control the device using its Matter connection, but the device would not actually sit on HA's thread network?

[shrewd crow]

Correct on the onboarding steps.

[stray otter]

No, that doesn’t mean you have to commission your devices to Apple Home first. Sync your Thread credentials from your iPhone to HA and make your Thread network your preferred network via Settings > Thread. After that you can commission your devices to HA first and then share from there to any other Matter fabric. But you are still able to commission to Apple Home first.

[astral sorrel]

And just to make sure it is clear from the " But you are still able to commission to Apple Home first." This does not mean they are available in apple home. When you setup your thread settings, you will see if you have multiple thread networks. You will do what hoppel118 says above and when you commission you will be commissioning to Apple Home TBR but on a thread network called Test !@#% or something that is setup by HA. Can't change name for some reason. If you then want your devices in Apple home you can either expose them through HA homekit integration (which is handy with inovelli when you don't want all the LED bar / Light Bar confustion where you get 2 devices per switch), or you can share the matter device which gives you a new pairing code you can scan with apple home. You are essentially using your Apple Devices as your border routers for managing the thread network instead of using multiple vendors (OTBR, Ikea, Apple) and having multiple thread networks as primary.

[craggy kernel]

I appreciate the responses. I think this went off track a little bit, though.

My current suspicion is that it is the Apple TBRs that are introducing some connectivity issues into my network. I was asking about removing those so that I only have the HA skyconnect as a TBR.

[shrewd crow]

Are you using the OTBR beta (thread 1.4 based) with the ZBT-1 (skyconnect)? If not the stable otbr (thread 1.3 based) will frequently take down your apple thread network and/or cause major instability when mixed with an apple thread network in my experience.

[astral sorrel]

Ok so you had said a few things that it wasn't clear if you understood teh difference between the need for a vendor specific TBR to use a product (OTBR for HA, Apple for HK, Digera for Ikea) ...

Even with multiple TBR vendors being used you can have a single Thread network by sharing credentials. It is complicated and does add risk.

There is some information missing from your discussion. What wifi channel are each of your TBRs using? Apple normally uses like channel 26 for the thread network. OTBR has a channel.... Those can cause issues with one another.

I think you said all your devices were in the apple TBR network (that is where you commissioned), but did you set your preferred border router to an Apple border router, then use HA app to commission to HA first and then share with HK by using the share device in HA?

To be clear you said earlier you are "thinking" about running HA for you main thread network. Assume you mean OTBR. You wouldn't then eer neet to run a seperate "thread" network. What you really mean is you want to have separate "matter fabrics" . This is what is meant by Multi-Admin. To do that right you should share the credentials from your primary if you are going to go with multiple TBR ecosystems. Additionally, you main thread network (Apple or OTBR or other) should be networked using physical (not wifi) network connections if at all possible. It is faster and doesn't saturate your wifi network. You DO NOT WANT to reset your devices and have them setup separate thread networks. You want to share the device from your primary matter fabric / thread network to another matter fabric so that it is subscribed to and can control the same device.

If you decide you want to start over with OTBR (not HA as HA can be the primary fabric using Apple TBR) as your primary thread network, you will have to reset all your devices.

If you have devices falling on and off you main have wireless interference. Check your thread network channels and make sure your wifi network is not overlapping them. Google wifi channel to thread channel image and you can see where they overlap. This usually causes devices to go "offline" and then come back. Not being able to control devices from 1 matter fabric to another sounds like a credential issue.

[craggy kernel]

At your earlier suggestion, I did switch to OTBR beta, yes.

[craggy kernel]

You are offering a lot here so I'm going to try to respond as best I can haha

I think I am hung up on the multiple TBR vendor thing. I see you and others state that combining is complicated and can cause issues. I also see people say you should only have one thread network. How can these two statements coexist? I don't NEED dirigera for example, but I like some features it offers. But it is not possible to turn off the thread radio so it will be broadcasting whether I use it or not.

A better example is we have a couple Amazon echos in the house, just to further complicate things haha. I don't touch thread with those, but I have no way to disable the network or join it to the primary.

The Thread network set up by Apple and in use as primary is on channel 25. The ATV, HA OTBR, and dirigera are all wired. The three homepods obviously are not.

I have a unifi network with multiple access points. Most of them are on 1 or 6 but I see one is on 11. I acknowledge this could be a problem. My choices in unifi are auto or locking each to one channel. Do you have a suggestion for the AP on channel 11?

"I think you said all your devices were in the apple TBR network (that is where you commissioned), but did you set your preferred border router to an Apple border router, then use HA app to commission to HA first and then share with HK by using the share device in HA?"

Yes that is how I have been operating. When following these steps, should HA OTBR or the primary ATV be chosen for "use for android and iOS credentials" ?

[shrewd crow]

For the AP’s I would lock them, which keeps them from doing any channel scanning. I have 3 AP and put the one in the middle of my home on channel 1 and the 2 toward opposing ends of the home on channel 6. Saw this recommended in a Zigbee/thread Wi-Fi coexistence recommendations page somewhere. Some variation of every other AP by distance on channel 1 and the rest on channel 6.

BTW I have added a ZBT-1 using OTBR beta and a Aqara M3 TBR to my apple thread network on thread channel 25. Works without issue since moving to the OTBR beta. So while the recommendations of a single manufacturer thread network being easier and more stable is true for most, it is not an absolute requirement.

[craggy kernel]

Are all these set correctly?

[shrewd crow]

That’s the same settings I have.

[astral sorrel]

for the unif question, you would need to force them on to channel 1 or 6. As for the thread conversation, let's not worry about wether you have multiple border routers that have a thread network. You can have a single "in use" thread network even if mutiple potential thread border routers have a thread network broadcasting. If they are all using the same credentials and PANYou can have an AP broadcasting multiple wifi networks but they only matter if the client joins that network. So when peole say, only have 1 thread network, they mean if you are going to use multiple vendors TBRs you should share credentials but all vendors don't support this.

Go to your iOS device, go to home setting, scroll down and wait a second and a connected services should show up, click on it and how many connected services do you have and how many devices in each.

What features does having dirigera give your devices when the device is in matter mode OR do you have them in zigbee mode and using the dirigera as a matter bridge?

I have amazon echos as well, but I don't commission devices to the echo so it is irrelevant. Doesn't matter that their radio is on.

Have you shared the credentials to the networks? If you go to the thread page in HA, it may help to share a picture of what your thread network looks like on that page. It's just hard to know how you have it setup at the moment.

Look through this thread and see if your thread page has all your TBRs from all vendors in 1 preferred network box or you have multiple thread networks.

https://community.home-assistant.io/t/how-to-merge-thread-from-homeassistant-and-homekit-networks/861696/8

[astral sorrel]

from google as an explanation:

Thread networks create a single, unified mesh by sharing a common Dataset (network key, channel, and PAN ID) among Border Routers from different vendors. When credentials are shared, multiple Border Routers (e.g., Apple TV, Google Nest Hub) operate on the same IEEE 802.15.4 wireless channel to form one network, increasing coverage.

[craggy kernel]

After chatting last night, I dug into wifi settings. I liked the idea of the middle floor on one channel and the top and bottom on the other. Unfortunately I have more APs then that so it wasn't quite that easy to spread out.

But then I got to thinking I really shouldn't NEED that many APs. It's a two-story house but it is by no means huge.

So I'm currently experiencing with eliminating 1 AP that wasn't doing much and upping the transmission power on the rest.

These changes have caused some issues with wifi smart stuff while I experiment, but changing the channel on the one AP that was overlapping with Thread seems to have knocks on wood helped the Thread network tremendously.

I'll circle back to the above questions after I've had more time to test these changes out.

[craggy kernel]

I feel pretty dumb that thread issues I've been battling for months might be due to wifi interference though. 🤦‍♂️🤣