2 gang Shelly switch, 1 bulb

[azure breach]

Can I use a 2-gang light switch with a Shelly 2PM Gen4 in detached mode with a single light switch? My idea is to use 1 gang to change power state + set colour to white, and another gang to change power state + change colour to yellow on my smart bulb.

[cedar verge]

I believe you can, I think you can set each switch input to its own settings separately.

[azure breach]

Ah cool, I'll cancel my order for 1PM mini and go for the 2PM. I'll change my 1 gang switches to 2 gang and use the second button to change colour temperature. Extra physical controls ❤️

[azure breach]

Do you know if there is any way to have more than 2 switches with a single Shelly? It would be cool to have 1 for load status, 1 for colour, and 1 for brightness

I think they only do Shellys supporting up to 2 switches though?

[cedar verge]

the "shelly i4" can take 4 switch inputs but it doesn't have any relays. but if your light is powered on all the time and just controlled by network then you don't need a relay anyway.

you could also get a wall switch with buttons you can set to whatever and put it on the wall next to the normal switch (or 3d print an adaptor and put it over the top of the normal switch or something) shelly make this one - https://www.shelly.com/products/shelly-blu-wall-switch-4-stand-alone-bundle

most shelly devices can also act as a bluetooth proxy so even if you dont have a BT setup you can just use whatever relay device you have as a BT proxy to get signals from the buttons.

[azure breach]

That one is Wi-Fi? I really don't want to add a bunch of Wi-Fi switches

[azure breach]

That looks cool, but I don't want to add battery-powered switches. I have enough faff replacing batteries as it is. I want to keep the light switches hardwired

[azure breach]

My intention is to get switch statuses from HA. This is effectively the same as what you are describing here?

[cedar verge]

yeah, same as adding a shelly relay on wifi. just instead of a switch input and a relay output it has 4 switch inputs that you can read from HA.

[cedar verge]

yeah thats fair, although for ble stuff tends to last 2 years or something. depending on use obviously.

[cedar verge]

was referring to if you get the ble buttons. you can relay connection through a shelly relay if you don't already have a bluetooth setup.

[azure breach]

I'll be using Zigbee with the relays. I don't want to clutter up my Wi-Fi network with too many IoT devices.

It seems the product you linked is Wi-Fi only, so that's no good unfortunately.

[azure breach]

2 years is good in isolation, but when you have 50 different devices, it's still annoying

People make their smart homes too high maintenance.

Ooooo I've just found 'retractive switches'

[cedar verge]

yeah they haven't released the i4 gen4 version yet. but it will come in the future.
I haven't used any shellys in zigbee mode yet. i am not sure on how the detached mode is set up with them. i am sure its a thing but i just havent played with it yet. (i have some gen4 stuff coming though but its with otherstuff which is on backorder so waiting)

[cedar verge]

yeah that is a perfectly reasonable stance to take.

[azure breach]

https://www.screwfix.com/p/british-general-nexus-metal-10a-1-gang-1-way-bell-push-switch-brushed-steel/742xg

So I could buy this, use a single-press for turning the bulb on/off and a long-press for another action such as changing colour temp\

What do you think is most sensible for multi-actions? Either getting a 1PM mini with a retractable switch, or a 2PM and 2-gang switch?

[azure breach]

The only battery-powered devices we have so far are our Tado X radiator valves, and this alone is creating enough bother with changing batteries. I want to get as few additional battery-powered devices as I can.

[cedar verge]

yeah, if the button mode of the shellt input supports multiple events. again i havent tried it

[cedar verge]

probably more personal preference i guess

[azure breach]

Seems to, according to this video 🙂 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ5bRg8yJsU&t=468s

[azure breach]

2-gangs might be more confusing for users/difficult to setup...

[cedar verge]

cool, i dont think i watched that one. but channel is great.

[azure breach]

I wonder if I can get a retractable switch that's good enough quality for me. Maybe I need to go to the store and get a feel for it

Going from $1 plastic switches to $10 metal switches is incredible

[cedar verge]

here is one of my switches:

many buttons!

[azure breach]

jesus

That's a bit overkill...

[cedar verge]

there are many different ones. its a fairly normal thing. as long as you don't get the cheapest stuff its probably fine

[azure breach]

My wife would not approve

[cedar verge]

project write up is here if interested - https://github.com/MichaelMKKelly/LocalDeck-Light-Switch-Mount

[azure breach]

This one looks good, except the bell icon bothers me https://www.screwfix.com/p/british-general-nexus-metal-10a-1-gang-1-way-bell-push-switch-brushed-steel/742xg

[azure breach]

Definitely interesting, but got a bit too much on my plate to get stuck into this

[cedar verge]

yeah, its down to preference. but it allows for various options. pressing it to get specific TTS reports is nice. also cos of the leeds for each buton can display states.

there's a huge amount of custom switches you could mess with and use. just gotta work out what works best for you.

[azure breach]

Not seeing many options actually. I only found one that looked decent, but with an annoying bell icon

[cedar verge]

Something like THIS maybe?

screwfix will only carry so much misc stuff but if you hunt around there are loads of different things to fit any sort of decor

[azure breach]

Looks good, but IDK about the quality of it. The feel of my quality switches feels good. It's a satisfying click, not a mushy press.

I found this, but IDK what to add it to. https://www.screwfix.com/p/british-general-nexus-metal-grid-20a-1-way-grid-retractive-switch-module-press-brushed-steel/851rf

Any way for me to try the Varilight switch before I buy?

omg the search is so responsive and good on this site https://www.builderdepot.co.uk

Literally instant

[azure breach]

Varilight reputation seems good. I'm tempted to take a gamble and order it. Only thing I don't like is the screwless. I wonder if they do one with screws

[cedar verge]

i think this. https://www.screwfix.com/p/british-general-nexus-metal-1-module-modular-faceplate-brushed-steel/819xg

[azure breach]

perfect!

[cedar verge]

no idea, probably have to find a physical location that sells it

[azure breach]

Or https://www.amazon.co.uk/Varilight-Single-Push-Retractive-Switch/dp/B0FD44F7KQ or https://www.amazon.co.uk/Varilight-Single-Centre-Off-Retractive-Switch/dp/B0FD43LSWQ

Have you used retractive switches at all? I'm wondering whether to go single push or single centre-off

[cedar verge]

if you go down to a screwfix at a time where its not busy and ask if you can look at a couple of things and feel them before buying they may help you out.
will depend how busy they are most likely. if you ask when they are queued out the door then you are gunna be told no.

[azure breach]

They're usually pretty good at my local store

They don't have the Varilight retractive switches though.

[cedar verge]

not at home, i have been in places that have had them. its just a switch with a spring in it basically.

[azure breach]

And the 'centre-off' ones seem to be rockers but also retractive

[cedar verge]

yeah, they are mostly designed for blinds and stuff. so you can raise/lower by holding.

[azure breach]

I didn't know light-switch shopping would be so complicated

[cedar verge]

I tend to prefer basic stuff tbh but people want all manner of different things that work slightly differently in every finish and colour ever conceived of 😛

[azure breach]

I want something basic and high quality that someone who doesn't know about my smart home can use, but I also like to have optional functionality for advanced functions.

And I like brushed steel

Don't like cheap plastic

[cedar verge]

I tend to try and have things automated so the point where I don't need to touch light switches.

then have a sliding cover to stop people messing with switches. but still able to slide and use if i need to.

[azure breach]

That's going to add a lot of installation complexity.

My thinking right now is that a retractive switch makes on/off simple, and holding it down could switch colour temp

[cedar verge]

i very rarly have to touch a switch on ground floor of house now. only if i need the "big lights" on full

[azure breach]

It must achieve a high wife approval score

[azure breach]

Because of motion/presence sensors?

[cedar verge]

yeah i get this, family approval is important. i had to slowly build up to it.

[cedar verge]

yes

[azure breach]

My goals:

1. Stop myself/others accidentally turning off the lights where we have motion sensors
2. Give us manual control in rooms I don't want to automate (mainly bedrooms)

[azure breach]

What do you do for bedrooms?

Would you ever put the Shelly inside a power socket? Or do you just use them for lights?

[cedar verge]

the most automated one I use a switch for.
switch is "off vs automatic mode"
but in others i have zigbee button by the bed for light control as alternitive to switch.

[cedar verge]

no. you should not put them behind a socket. use a smartplug if you want to switch something on a plug.

[azure breach]

Ah a switch to enable/disable automation? That's clever, I didn't think of that.

[azure breach]

Why? I was thinking for power monitoring.

Smart plugs add a lot of bulk

[cedar verge]

basically yeah. i can switch it remotly too if i wanted.

[azure breach]

So how did you configure it? Is your HA automation using the switch state as a condition when determining whether to run?

Gonna have to be slow and careful with my bedroom light automation. I don't want to piss off my wife.

[cedar verge]

if its switchable then you have to worry about someone plugging an inductive load into it and upsetting the relay. always assume somone will plug a induction motor device into it.

[cedar verge]

i think thats how its done but tbh i set it a long time ago.

[cedar verge]

put a shelly behind it and put a button next to the bed so she can switch it from bed. that will be a good first stepping stone.

[azure breach]

Sounds like a plan

Got a lot of work to do...

Gotta run some cat6 too... making myself busy

So I have the 1PM mini gen4s coming from Amazon, they'll come on Friday.

I think I'll order https://www.screwfix.com/p/british-general-nexus-metal-1-module-modular-faceplate-brushed-steel/819xg and https://www.screwfix.com/p/british-general-nexus-metal-1-module-modular-faceplate-brushed-steel/819xg to my local store and show my wife so we can test the quality of it and decide if we want to install a few of them around the house

Or maybe this one instead of the Varilight

Decide with my wife which we like, then go install it

It's gonna be so nice, thank you @cedar verge

[cedar verge]

sounds like a plan.

[azure breach]

Unrelated question, do you have redundancy for HA? How do your light automations function if HA is down?

I think it's possible to script the shellys so if the HA state hasn't changed after N seconds, they disable the load to the bulbs

[cedar verge]

no worries, good luck with the project 🙂

[azure breach]

I just replaced around 40 non-smart downlights with these cans and installed Philips Hue bulbs. My wife loves it, just gotta make it smarter.

[cedar verge]

i don't, but in most cases stuff is set up so can revert to switches.

[cedar verge]

shelly does have a scripting system built into devices but i haven't really ever used it.

[azure breach]

Guide here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ5bRg8yJsU&t=468s

He shows how to do normal load fallback if HA is down

I will follow it. I wouldn't want my bulbs to ever be stuck on!

[cedar verge]

ah cool, ill watch through it to look at that. I usually watch his stuff but i skippeed that one as for the most part i know what shellys can do and how to set them up.

[azure breach]

I'm looking at this bulb, it looks pretty nice. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Philips-Hue-Ambiance-Lighting-Ceiling/dp/B0FH25P4HB?ie=UTF8&th=1

2900 lumens ❤️

[cedar verge]

to be fair, i have my HA backed up daily and have more than enough hardware to spin up a new server and restore a backup if worst case situation happened.

i could use high availability via proxmox but it seems overkill.

[azure breach]

Yeah I guess there's a lot that can cause downtime. Faulty cables, faulty switch/router, faulty antenna, drive failure, PSU failure, or you're moving equipment or something.

It's one of the reasons I'm using Hue Bridge, to enable control even if HA is down

HA seems to control the bulbs just fine even though they're routed through the bridge

I'm currently testing 'MotionAware' but not finding it works all that well

[cedar verge]

yeah both direct and via bridge integrations are decent for hue stuff I hear. although i dont use any of it myself.

[azure breach]

What bulbs/gear do you use?

[cedar verge]

yeah its a cool idea and works great in a lab setting but in reality its gunna be a bit hit and miss

[azure breach]

Yeah getting way too many false positives / false negatives. Kinda regret buying the Hue Bridge Pro now.

[cedar verge]

a bit of a mix, some esphome/tasmota stuff from random places. a load are just basic bulbs though with just the shelly control.

[cedar verge]

its gunna be a bit like my room pressence using ble. a bunch of bluetooth proxies allow me to see where a device is "sort of" and therefore can track a specific person.

i have a couple of automations that trigger from something else and try to estabish who triggered it but its mostly gimmicky stuff

[azure breach]

I like the high lumens / low wattage and cheap price of some of the non-smart bulbs, but I imagine they're a pain to change brightness when using smart switches

[cedar verge]

they can be but mostly i dont need to adjust brightness manually.

if i desperately need to do it then I can do it via voice too.

[azure breach]

ewww voice control

I can't stand voice control and phone control

Physical buttons are soooooooo much nicer

[cedar verge]

yeah I don't use it that much but its an option as a fallback without getting a phone out.

I have a fully local voice stack

[azure breach]

Always do local 👍

[cedar verge]

I mostly use the voice satellites for notifications/announcements.

for example since this was added, there has not been an "incident" 😛

[azure breach]

So you use visual language models?

Do you use Frigate too?

This gives me a disgusting idea

[cedar verge]

not currently. the coffee machine state is gotten from smartplug power monitoring. i have messed with visual models a bit but not that much yet.

[cedar verge]

yes, for an outdoor camera that does some object detection on a coral tpu

[azure breach]

Ooooooooooo you create alerts based on patterns on power load? That's smart!

I have some simple automations based on patterns of water flow

[azure breach]

Same! What model are you using?

[cedar verge]

I feel like there are better options once you get to that to that many

[cedar verge]

just the basic frigate one, tbh my frigate is a bit outdated. i need to sort some stuff out. but it was on hold to be done as part of a bigger project which is now on hold due to ram pricing 🙁

[azure breach]

Upgrade to YOLOv9 it's so much better https://fuzznotes.com/posts/frigate-mobiledet-to-yolov9/

[cedar verge]

yeah i have some state machine entities that can track dumb devices through stages based on power patterns.

[azure breach]

Yeah god damn PC HW pricing. I wanted to upgrade my HDDs...

[cedar verge]

will bookmark it and have a look when i get theree.

[azure breach]

Fairly easy to switch. You need the beta version of frigate, then you just copy the new model over. Detection accuracy is vastly improved on the Coral

I might switch from Coral at some point. It's a bit underpowered. Very power-efficient though. Trying to keep electricity bills down despite all this gadgetry...

[cedar verge]

i upgraded my storage array nearly a year ago now and i built a new desktop at end of september i think it was. just before the problems started. so i got fairly lucky on those fronts.

[azure breach]

Same. Just wish I bought more

I was planning to upgrade my array further around this time

So glad I got all the RAM I need though

That being said, my qbittorrent is using over 50GB for some weird reason

[cedar verge]

i am working on moving a load of stuff over to a more efficient minirack setup. need to build a nas setup for it though. has a semi plan but then ram prices...

[azure breach]

RAM prices 💩

[azure breach]

I moved mine over to a MoDT (Mobile on Desktop) board with 2X48GB SODIMM

Just in the nick of time

[cedar verge]

should be good on storage for a bit though

[cedar verge]

my plan was to get and build around one of THESE

[azure breach]

Struggling a bit here

[azure breach]

Looks good. This is my one, which is a bit more capable (but more expensive) https://www.amazon.com/MINISFORUM-Motherboard-i9-13900HX-Chipset-PCIe4-0/dp/B0CTTMY5BW

[azure breach]

How many pci lanes does it have?

Do you have a HBA?

Only gen3 on the M.2 bays...

[cedar verge]

cant remember but it has the sata ports for the drive count i need currently so the only thing ill be putting on pcie will probably be 10gbe adaptor

[azure breach]

I use 2.5gbe on-board and HBA in the PCIE bay. I need storage more than I need bandwidth

What do you need 10gbe for?

[cedar verge]

it will be for storage management only. (well maybe it might get a random small container)

[cedar verge]

future proofing 😛

[azure breach]

I run sooooooooooo many dockers

[azure breach]

My thinking is that by the time I need 10Gbe, boards will start to become available with it on-board

Swapping boards is relatively painless.

[cedar verge]

currently my truenas setup is on a vm on proxmox with a hba passed through to it with pcie passthrough

[azure breach]

Oh this is a complex setup

I just run Unraid and run everything on it

[cedar verge]

I dislike unraid in general for a few concept reasons. but if it works for you then thats great.

[azure breach]

The only thing that bothers me about my setup, is that all my services go down whenever I need to update the OS, or need to make a change to the array

[azure breach]

What bothers you the most? They're changing a lot ATM

[cedar verge]

they charge for a ui to a linux system.
the licence is tied to usb boot media which they insist you use.

I feel like in a lot of cases its target market is people that like the idea of having a server but don't actually want to deal with having a server.

[azure breach]

They're removing the USB requirement

[cedar verge]

they don't pay it back to the underlaying opensource stuff that much either.

[azure breach]

Ah that sucks. I like valve because they make a lot of sales and contribute a lot back

[cedar verge]

HexOS pays stuff back and funds development of ZFS stuff for example.

I probably wouldnt use HexOS either but at least it helps upstream so i dislike it less. its also built on top of truenas and in a pinch you can just directly access the truenas ui if you want to do something specific thats not supported in the main HexOS UI.

[azure breach]

Oh that's cool. I shall check it out

[cedar verge]

unraid i feel is less flexible but there is less you can do make stuff go wrong i guess.

i have proxmox on all my servers currently. the plan was to bare metal truenas on the new setup there though.

[azure breach]

Good for people like me 🤣

[cedar verge]

yeah, I don't hate on people that use it and are happy with it. if it works for you then thats absolutly great. i just dislike it and wouldnt use it.

[azure breach]

Looks like other people have the same idea with the Varilight inserts

I wish high street was still alive. I'd like to visit a light switch store and look/feel them all

Do I need to match the switch to the backbox size? So before ordering, I need to measure my backbox?

[cedar verge]

backboxes and the screw positions are a standard size so stuff should be able to be fitted on without issue.

[azure breach]

You sure?

[cedar verge]

ok so i meant on every dimension except depth to be fair.

yeah depth can be an issue but you can get spacers if you need a tiny bit more room

this kind of thing - https://www.screwfix.com/p/schneider-electric-lisse-1-gang-spacer-white/5782j

various options available

I got a box of them ages ago that i occasionally use for stuff where needed.

replacing the backboxes with deeper ones is something that is usually doable but it depends on the wall. although its a bit of a job.

some examples of some stuff I have mentioned:

yeah i am aware the double spacer on the fuse spur looks bad but its not in a place that it needs to look good. i was gunna rework it and make it neater but I didnt end up bothering.

[azure breach]

Hmmmm a nice metal switch wouldn't look so nice with a plastic spacer

[azure breach]

You covered the switch up? Interesting. So I'll leave the switch visible, but turning it on/off manually shouldn't be a problem if I used shelly in detached mode

I like the idea though. In my bedroom, I cover my switch up and have a Hue Dial switch in front of it. IDK if I'll keep it long-term

[cedar verge]

i am sure you can probably get metal ones but its what i had on hand.

[cedar verge]

for that one, it needs to stay on. the presence sensor is also powered by that connection and the shelly to swith the fitting is next to the fitting

I try and keep it so manual usage is not an issue but in that case it was awkward

[azure breach]

How did you wire a presence sensor into a light switch?

[cedar verge]

the power from it goes into a 5v power supply that powers the sensor which is in the ceiling.

its for the downstairs toilet so options for power were limited.

[azure breach]

Is there anything I need to be aware of about the mini?

I wonder if I can automate my bathroom extraction fan.... I always open the window after a shower and forget about it.

[cedar verge]

nothing comes to mind really.

[cedar verge]

humidity sensor and trigger it baseed on humidity level. although use a higher spec relay. an extracter fan is an inductive load. its not huge but i probably wouldnt use a mini for it.

[azure breach]

My plan is to use the mini to do some simple single-bulb rooms as practice. Then I'll get the larger 2PM ones for 2-gang switches. Then I need to figure out how to do 2-way switching for my hallways.

[azure breach]

So will need the 16A version?

How many lights can a single 8A mini power?

[cedar verge]

i would think that the 16a version is probably fine for it yeah.

[cedar verge]

as long as they are LED then loads.

[azure breach]

Awesome. Yeah I usually go with LED Philips Hue\

I think I have 8 in my dining room

[cedar verge]

you should be able to wire in such a way that current 2 way switching is maintained. the shelly will see it as a single switch but it will change state on either switch being used.

[azure breach]

I will put Philips Hue and Shelly in every room

[cedar verge]

whatever is currently connected to the load(light) is put into the sw connection and it will work from both. if you make them both retracktive then it might need a bit more thought though.

[azure breach]

Retractive is nice to have 1 function on press and 1 on hold

I like it more than my earlier plan of 2 gangs for 1 bulb

Simpler, but the same effect

Can't do much now, gotta wait for the weekend.

I'll figure it out as I go

[cedar verge]

yeah, gotta mess with it a bit and see what goes right/wrong and adapt as needed. good luck with it 🙂

[azure breach]

https://masterlec.co.uk/products/bg-rfr12-1-2-gang-grid-yoke-mounting-frame?_pos=1&_sid=52015f9e6&_ss=r

https://masterlec.co.uk/products/bg-rnbs1-brushed-steel-1-gang-front-cover-plate?_pos=6&_sid=19913cd89&_ss=r

https://masterlec.co.uk/products/bg-rbs12c-brushed-steel-2-way-single-pole-centre-off-switch-20-amp-grid-switch?_pos=1&_sid=0fa82dbe0&_ss=r

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0F9LJFWPB?smid=A30DC7701CXIBH&th=1

Plan is that press up = light on, press down = light off, hold up = brightness up, hold down = brightness down

I spent far too long thinking about this

But I think this will combine traditional switching and smart home tech as seamlessly as possible.

Might need to return the 1PM minis

[azure breach]

Looks like I need some wire and wagos.

Would this be suitable for Shelly 2PM gen4 ? https://www.amazon.co.uk/Silicone-Electrical-15Meters-Temperature-Resistance/dp/B0B1L9VQPN

[cedar verge]

"technically" for a lighting circuit you are supposed to use at least 1.5mm^2. realistically its probably fine.
tbh you can find an old mains cable you don't need anymore and chop it up and salvage the cores if you want, or get something like THIS and strip the cores out.

unless your doing a a serious amount of wiring, buying singles isn't really gunna be worth it.

[azure breach]

I read that people have tried 14awg and it's a little too tight in the shelly terminal

[azure breach]

Oh wait, I actually have some spare cable. I removed 2 downlights recently. 😄

[cedar verge]

also, stop using American wire measurements for UK stuff. you are just gunna end up with cables that are out of spec.

AWG = American Wire Gauge

[azure breach]

awg is an American measurement? I thought it was global because cat6 is measured in awg

Right, so I need 1.5mm twin and earth cable, and then I need to strip it

[cedar verge]

in general:
1.5 for light circuits
2.5 for socket circuits

[azure breach]

All my Shellys are going into light circuits.

[cedar verge]

Using flex makes it easier to work with but you should ferrule the ends for the terminals.

if you get single core you have to wrestle it a bit.

[azure breach]

Flex sounds easier, but I have no idea how to ferrule

[cedar verge]

can get a kit with crimps and tool for example: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0C48XTB4M?th=1

[azure breach]

Wondering if it might just be easier to not go with flex cable?

[cedar verge]

tbh a ferrule kit is not an awful thing to own anyway.
you can use single core but as i mentioned if you are already a little limited on space then wrestling it into the box can be a real pain.

down to you though.

[azure breach]

Yeah the backboxes are a little cramped

[cedar verge]

you can use flex without ferrules too but its just a recommendation to use it otherwise strands get squished and cut all over the shop.

[azure breach]

I don't understand what you mean by "single core" and why this is harder to wrestle into the box? Isn't single-core just 1 wire per colour instead of twin & earth?

[cedar verge]

the actual copper inside of the wire being 1 piece vs stranded.

random stock image:

"solid core" probably a better term tbh

[azure breach]

Ah so single core = non-flex basiclaly?

Stranded = flex ?

[cedar verge]

its stiff cos its 1 piece of metal, and flex is stranded so is flexible.

[azure breach]

Right, understood now.

[cedar verge]

a ferrule crimp keeps the strands together at the end

[azure breach]

The product you linked has 3 variants. One is much more expensive than the other two

[cedar verge]

the different versions have different ranges of supported wires.

[azure breach]

Ah yeah, you linked the best one

[cedar verge]

getting a wider range tool is handy.

[azure breach]

Totally

I am collecting so many tools now I am a home owner

[cedar verge]

get yourself a nice big toolbox 🙂

[azure breach]

Gotta buy a new shed soon.

Is it okay to use black connectors on all my cables?

[cedar verge]

yeah that looks right, but sometimes to be honest you go with what fits

[azure breach]

It's still gonna be 2 weeks before I can begin this project... My switch didn't arrive before the weekend, and I'm going on vacation for a week 31st-6th.

[cedar verge]

if its just for occasional useage it will basically last forever too. there are "professional grade" ones that are more robust but they are desdigned to be used constantly every day.

[azure breach]

Yeah, I don't need pro tools. I'd be spending a fortune if I did.

I have so many tools that I use super infrequently

Still costs a fortune

Been collecting all the Bosch 18V battery powertools

[cedar verge]

yeah, tools are something that you will build up over time. but having them saves you problems in the future randomly.

[azure breach]

Probably gonna have to shell out for this soon https://www.amazon.de/dp/B083DMRLMQ?th=1

I have only owned a house since October 2024.

Gotta get an expensive combination ladder soon too. Got 2 more downlights to replace above my stairs, then I need to run cat6 to the loft from outside.

[cedar verge]

remember to use outdoor rated cat if your running outside.

also consider running LC-LC fibre cable alongside if your doing stuff anyway. you might not use it but if you want it in the future then it could be handy.

[azure breach]

Yeah totally. I fucked up and paid someone to run cat6 to my loft, and now I have to redo it to run to my server room. 🤦‍♂️

Easy enough to find external grade cat6, but hard to find 500/550MHz

[azure breach]

hmmmmmmmmm? First time hearing this

[cedar verge]

e.g. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Elfcam®-Armored-Singlemode-Suitable-Outdoor/dp/B09JN22NDR?th=1

[azure breach]

Can that be used to connect my ONT to my router?

[cedar verge]

"Maybe"

you have to get it pre-terminated at the length you need/want but the cables can come out the double connector so you can thread them separately without a massive hole.

its not a super expensive addition to run if your putting cables in anyway and gives you options in the future. for a high speed link.

[azure breach]

My ONT only has one fibre in and one RJ45 out

[cedar verge]

yeah isp fibre in and copper out.

[azure breach]

hmmmm I could use this for switch<->switch ?

[cedar verge]

you might be able to extend the isp fibre but its definetly a "maybe"

[azure breach]

My switch has two fibre ports

[cedar verge]

yeah switch interlink is good

[azure breach]

How much of a fucking idiot am I

[cedar verge]

for basic stuff fibre is pretty easy to work with. once you start getting into the more complex stuff there is some wizardry involved.

[azure breach]

This is my switch. It's a beast. https://uk.store.ui.com/uk/en/category/all-switching/products/usw-pro-max-16-poe

[cedar verge]

my problem with that (and some other stuff from ubiquiti) is that its all like "2.5gbe swtich" then you notice its only got 4x2.5 ports

[azure breach]

Yeah true, however, it's enough for my WAPs and switches. I mostly needs lots of 1gbe PoE ports or my cams, and IoT devices like hue bridge, etc

I wish it had more 2.5gbe, but difficult to get a switch that can do everything

[cedar verge]

i am aiming to move most of my stuff to 10" "mini" rack instead of my 19" rack tbh.

[azure breach]

Ah, why?

Difficult to find a UPS for 10"

[cedar verge]

space and power efficientcy

[azure breach]

You'll likely need third-party mounting kits too

[cedar verge]

i make them all myself with 3d printer.

[azure breach]

awesome

I'd like a 3d printer, but probably wouldn't use it enough

[cedar verge]

my plan is both - https://uk.store.ui.com/uk/en/category/switching-utility/products/usw-flex-2-5g-8 and https://uk.store.ui.com/uk/en/category/all-switching/products/usw-flex-2-5g-8-poe

[azure breach]

I almost bought those two, then I decided to just get the 1 switch

[cedar verge]

this gives me all 2.5 with 8 poe's and the switches can be initially linked at 10gbe but in the future potentially adding a 10gbe switch too

[cedar verge]

I was tempted by this - https://shop.thetechnologydoctors.co.uk/products/tp-link-omada-sg3428xpp-m2-2-5gigabit-switch

[azure breach]

TP Link....

Aren't they sketchy?

[cedar verge]

I would never buy their smart home stuff but that might as well be a different comapny.

but in general higher end tp-link network gear is "probably fine"

but I wasn't totally convinced tbh.
then decided to start moving stuff to 10" and went a different way

[azure breach]

I bought a 19" rack, but I'm now afraid to wall-mount it because my studs aren't correctly spaced apart. Gonna try using this on one side... https://www.amazon.co.uk/Plasterboard-Cavity-Fixings-Heavy-Trade/dp/B08TVZP1BQ/

Got myself a super fancy studfinder

[azure breach]

oh nice you have a networking closet

[cedar verge]

power and network cables have a loop on them so i can bring it out of the cupboard to work on it.

[azure breach]

IDK how I'd run my cables under the stairs. I plan to run them to my spare room

How did you get them running there?

[cedar verge]

its a new(ish) build so a bunch of stuff was predone tbh.

[azure breach]

Your server looks a bit too small for me. I have BIG storage demands

[cedar verge]

main array for me is 4 drives but that system thats out in the photo does takes 8.

[azure breach]

I need hundreds of TB

I am a hoarder

I'm terrible

[cedar verge]

your a bigger hoarder then me 😛

my plan is to move storage to a new setup in the 10" rack with 6 bays which will be fine for me for a while.

but plan is on hold cos of component prices

[azure breach]

My plan is to go 60 bays https://hakoforge.com/products/hakocore#product-modal

[azure breach]

Yeah same....

Current setup

So I'll wallmount my 19" rack in my box room, and then put my tower PC below it

[pulsar jungle]

You're creating needs for me 😅

[pulsar jungle]

Thanks for sharing your project 👌

[cedar verge]

no worries 🙂 always happy to hopefully inspire ideas.

[azure breach]

https://www.screwfix.com/p/time-3182y-white-2-core-1-5mm-flexible-cable-10m-coil/905jy

I found this, looks ideal for shellys?

Ground not needed, right?

I delayed the project because I went on holiday and then I was sick, but I'm getting better so looking to buy the stuff tonight.

[cedar verge]

Yeah it should be fine for lighting circuits. Shelly's themselves don't have an earth connection.

[azure breach]

Awesome, it's less than half the price of the 3 core Amazon version

Save some $$$ which is good because I'm spending shitloads on my house lately

@cedar verge Random question, but what's your favourite AA rechargeable battery?

[cedar verge]

I cant say that I have one, I ddont use any. I dont really have anything that runs on AA. Although unless its something that i would need to use a bunch and replace a bunch i wouldn't use rechargeable. if its something that is years between replacements anyway then just a standard battery is probably a better solution IMO (although to be fair I haven't researched AA battery technology in years)

[azure breach]

Hmmmmm okay. I have remotes and stuff.

But yeah, maybe if it's years between replacements, maybe I don't need rechargeable. 🤔

[cedar verge]

yeah, just spend a little more and get decent standard batteries and not worry about it for years.

[azure breach]

I just spent 2 hours researching rechargeable AA batteries and you just made me completely rethink everything

Ah but alkaline batteries leak!

[cedar verge]

lol, sometimes you get into a rabbit hole. to be fair they might be better now then when I last looked into them. I know you get those ones that have a usb charging port on them these days which solves the issue of locating the charger when you need it I guess.

[cedar verge]

and lithium batteries explode 😛

[azure breach]

NiMH is what most rechargeables use

[cedar verge]

gotta be a lot lower capacity though.

sure standard batteries can leak but its not like they all leak 100% of the time.

[azure breach]

I have a memory of leaked batteries ruining one of my devices, although it was just something cheap.

I want to put them in some expensive devices, such as my smart water valve, and it would be horrible if it was damaged because of the batteries.

Oh interesting

Alkaline doesn't even work

[cedar verge]

more likely will work but will "go dead" quicker. the voltage drop off curves are very different. lithium holds higher voltage for longer. but its easier to say that "it doesnt work"

can you imagine the support. "why does my battery stop working after a short time when the battery works fine when I test it in my tv remote for ages" better off to say "lithium only"

brings up the thing in technical spec and documentation... Its easier to lie to someone then be forced to explain "technically yes but you most likely cant do this and I don't want to try and help you do it"
If it gets the person a more reliable setup and they will be happier in the long run then I am mostly happy with it.

[azure breach]

Alright then

Ah free shipping only applies when it's $35 spent when sold by Amazon. 💩

[cedar verge]

lol @ "precharged with solar" greenwashing wankery

[azure breach]

haha I noticed that too

It's such a tiny amount of power

[azure breach]

@cedar verge I just installed some metal power sockets, but realised I don't have any wire to connect the faceplate's earth terminal to the earth terminal in the metal backbox. Would this be okay for the job? https://www.screwfix.com/p/time-3-core-yy-grey-2-5mm-unscreened-control-cable-1m-coil/721py

Can't find any 1-core cable, so I guess I'll buy 3-core and throw most of it away lol

[cedar verge]

you can get some earth sleeving and use whatever core you like with the sleeving over the top

[azure breach]

Oh yeah good idea. But still, I have no 2.5mm cable, and the one I linked seems to be the cheapest. It just worries me how it isn't normal L/N/E

But does it matter? It's just a difference of sleeving, right?

[cedar verge]

in general I would recommend using single core non stranded cable for earth but I don't think it should really matter.

[azure breach]

Well there's this, but it's another $10 https://www.screwfix.com/p/time-6491x-green-yellow-1-core-2-5mm-conduit-cable-25m-drum/175jy

And I only need like 2X10CM of wire

Sounds like it's okay to use it then.

[cedar verge]

as long as you have a solid connection stranded will be fine. specially if its ferruled on the ends.

Just be sensible with it and you will likely be fine.

[azure breach]

Thank you.

[azure breach]

First attempt, any good?

I couldn't figure out how to strip exactly the right amount of insulation. I was also worried about frayed wire going further than the ferrule

[clever geyser]

you should use electronic side cutters - one to cut exact. eg. https://www.amazon.de/Electronic-Elektronik-Seitenschneider-Lichtwellenleiter-Rostschutz-125/dp/B005EXOF6S

[cedar verge]

It looks fine to me.

[azure breach]

Nice. Had to pause the work because my wife complained about turning off the power sockets. Gotta do it when she goes to church tomorrow morning.

I worked a bit on the shelly. God it's confusing because I have a centre-off retractive switch. Then it got dark and I stopped because I can barely see what I'm doing.

[azure breach]

Is the AI correct?

So my backbox only has 1 brown, 1 blue and 1 green/yellow

But this website says it should be fine, contradicting the AI

https://labs.smarthomeshopuk.com/guides/install-shelly-without-neutral/

Progress yay

That's weird

[azure breach]

So the switch works. Currently holding up or holding down seems to turn the bulb on. I'll probably reprogram it later to perform desired actions.

However, the flickering issue needs fixing.

Ah its flickering even with a dumb bulb

[azure breach]

Same issue with the 1PM. The bulb works fine when brown and blue are connected directly, even when using wagos and all the custom wires I used, so the issue must be with how I'm wiring the shelly

[azure breach]

Ah I have a 'ceiling rose'... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXIrAMhT9SA

I think my neutral isn't actually a neutral. It's a 'switched live' where the installer was too lazy to attach brown tape.

[cedar verge]

from your photos you have a neutral at the switch.

[azure breach]

Are you sure? You don't think it's a 'Switched Live'?

[cedar verge]

no

[azure breach]

It's only Brown and blue in the switch

@cedar verge Watching this video makes me think it's a switched live without brown sleeving https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXIrAMhT9SA

[cedar verge]

based on the photos you have posted, you are incorrect

[azure breach]

I couldn't get it to work today. The best I could do was get it working flickering. The shelly seemed to work, but when turning it on, the bulb was flashing like crazy

[azure breach]

But I have no Load wire, only a Live?

There should be two browns, right? A load and a live

I'd love it if I was wrong and I can wire this up behind my switch

[cedar verge]

do you have a photo of how it was before you did anything?

[azure breach]

When I connect L and N directly in a wago, it works fine. When I connect to L and N on my Shelly, turning the bulb on makes it flash

[azure breach]

No, but I can explain very simply. Blue into L1, Brown into Comms, and ground into an isolator thingy.

My other light switch has some sleeving on the blue. I wasn't working on this one though

[cedar verge]

the light fixture you have posted a photo only has 1 set of cables coming into it. which must be switched live and neutral

[azure breach]

Here is my other switch without anything connected (not the one I was working on today)

[azure breach]

You mean this photo?

I have to return the Shelly tomorrow if I can't get it working. 30 day return window is closing

[cedar verge]

yes

when you say "other switch" what do you mean? is this a 2 switch setup for the same light?

[azure breach]

Different room, completely unrelated.

[azure breach]

So my switch is like this, but without the L2. Brown into Com and blue into L2.

[cedar verge]

so you only have 2 wires at the switch and you only have 2 wires at the light fixture (I am ignoring earth for this purpose)...

[azure breach]

Cameron Gray says I have "3 plate method"

[azure breach]

Looks like 2 browns and a blue?

[cedar verge]

so... cameron gray has great videos. but please be careful blindly trying to do stuff with mains can be dangerous

[azure breach]

He says either install it at the fitting, or use the Shelly 1L/2L

[cedar verge]

things like "lets see whatr happens when i connect these 2 together" can absolutely kill you

[azure breach]

One time I shorted two UPS batteries. That scared the shit out of me

[cedar verge]

you only have 2 wires in and then they are connected to the 2 wires going to the bulb

if the switch only had 2 wires that were connected to Com and L1 (or L2 it doesn't matter) then there must be another connection somewhere. This might be behind the light fitting in the ceiling.

also if its a basic switch you should not be connected all 3 terminals to the shelly

There is something a bit strange going on with your wiring.

[azure breach]

So I just realised this is a different light fitting...

This is the one

[azure breach]

I connected L and N and SW

[cedar verge]

its the same anyway. 2 wires coming in which are then connected to the lights wires.

[cedar verge]

please stop doing anything at this stage

[azure breach]

I need to do something by tomorrow, otherwise I can't return it

The plug socket was so much easier than this.

[cedar verge]

so based on everything you have described. there is no neutral at the switch because if there had been you would have at best blown out the electrics to the house by doing what you did.

I need to get across to you that you have done some seriously dangerous things

there must be an additional wiring box somewhere.

[cedar verge]

no that is the consumer unit.

[azure breach]

Yeah just thought I'd share in case it helps at all

I remember when swapping out my downlights, I found a ceiling rose in my loft.

Maybe there's one of these up above my pendant light?

[cedar verge]

given this is a fairly modern install from what I can see. its strange its wired like this. plus missing sleeving etc... its a bit of bodge in places.

[cedar verge]

perhaps.

[azure breach]

House was built in 2004

[cedar verge]

and its likely had some rewiring done since.

2004-2006 was a big changeover period in uk electrical work (colours changing etc...)
a full RCBO board would have been strange in 04.

but anyway. back to job at hand

my recommendation is thus.

wire everything back the way it was originally
return the 2pm
add brown sleeving to the blue wire at the switch.

you can instead get one of the no neutral devices. and put it behind the switch.
but to be honest at this point you may want to consider getting an electrician involved.

[azure breach]

I've wired it back to the original. I'll return the 1PM and 2PM tomorrow.

Not super keen on those no-neutral shellys. You have to wire up a bypass on the light fitting, and they still don't work as well as the normal Shellys...

[cedar verge]

I am not trying to be a dick here but when it comes to this brutal honesty is best for safety.

you do not know how things are wired
you do not understand the wiring systems at play
you have already done things that could have been pretty catastrophic.
the wiring is slightly suspect anyway.

therefore you may not be the right person to do this work.

[cedar verge]

I would tend to agree, I very much dislike the no neutral setups. also to be fair given your setup the bypass might not be simple to add.

[azure breach]

ffs so I'm stuck with dumb switches and smart bulbs. My Korean wife's parents are coming to visit in May. Not ideal.

I have a Hue dial switch for my bedroom, but not keen on rolling out battery-powered switches throughout my house.

[cedar verge]

sticking with smart bulb dumb switch seems to be the better option.

cover the switch and put a battery powered smart switch on the wall or maybe as part of the cover over the old switch.

battery powered stuff does have the issue but realistically they last ages.

[cedar verge]

yeah something like this

[azure breach]

It looks and feels cheap

[cedar verge]

perhaps but It is entirely the best solution for you unless you want to get a sparky in and investigate what's going on in the ceiling and finding a way to wire a relay in place correctly.

[azure breach]

God I feel depressed now

[azure breach]

https://www.shelly.com/pages/installers Oh cool there's 3 local installers. Might be expensive to do my whole house though...

[cedar verge]

Just find a local sparky that is up to date on smart home stuff.

I have no idea what shellys requirements for becoming an installer are.

[azure breach]

What about this? http://www.amazon.co.uk/Aqara-Neutral-Requires-Compatible-Assistant/dp/B0CSCZ9YBV

oh 🙁

But this person says it's fine with Hue

[cedar verge]

may work, may not. also note that it is zigbee.

[cedar verge]

yeah no neutral can be flakey because of this type of thing

[azure breach]

Zigbee is ine

[cedar verge]

Basically...It might work, It might not.

[cedar verge]

every setup is slightly different. you will find a bunch of reviews from people that it works great for and is perfect but you will also find a bunch of reviews from people whom it didnt work for and they think its a scam product.

by all means give it a try.

[azure breach]

Slightly worried Amazon is going to come after me if I return too much

[cedar verge]

It is possible but for the most part they should become more suspicious and rule enforcing rather than anything else.

[azure breach]

ooooo

[cedar verge]

ok so... My opinion is that smart socket plates are fundamentally dangerous and should be avoided.

[azure breach]

Why?

[cedar verge]

they have relays for control. relays ratings are mostly for resistive loads. inductive loads can damage them cause arc'ing and fire. its all well and good saying "oh well ill just wont use inductive loads on them" but at some point some genius will plug a vacuum or a drill or something into them and cause problems.

[azure breach]

My wife is slightly mad with me right now. I'll return the Shellys and give the Aqara a test. I'm disappointed though, because my plan was to put BG Nexus metal sockets/switches all around my house.

[azure breach]

Whilst my smart light project has some setbacks, I appreciate all the help you've given me, and I learnt some skills for wiring and understand my light circuits a bit better now. It's been frustrating, but a valuable learning experience. Thank you.

I'll need to run some cat6 soonish. I think I can run the cables and zip-tie and punch them down okay. The only thing I'm not confident on is removing the old cables where they come into the brick wall.

Before this, I was just putting the wires in different terminals and trying different combinations until it worked. Now I know what "neutral" "live" "load" "switched live" and "ground" mean.

[cedar verge]

No worries, Learning is part of the process, But please be careful.

[azure breach]

So this Aqara switch seems to stay powered on well and was super simple to install.

I've been struggling getting Zigbee2MQTT working on my ZBT-1 or ZBT-2 for the past week. Have you ever used it?

[cedar verge]

Nice that the Aqara works, I just use ZHA for my ZBT-2 setup. I haven't played with z2m. Probably best making a fresh thread for questions on that.

[azure breach]

sigh I got mosquitto and zigbee2mqtt running.

Got it all working in decoupled mode. Now my switch stops working when my Hue Bulb is turned off.

When I turn the Hue bulb on using HA, then the switch comes back on too

[cedar verge]

yeah that is a thing with no-neutral setups sometimes, you need a certain amount of power flowing to be able to get power out.

[azure breach]

So I guess my options are:

1. Pay an electrician to install neutral wires (expensive?)
2. Install bypass capacitors
3. Cover up the switch and use a battery-powered switch on top

4. Replace my Hue bulbs with dumb bulbs

[cedar verge]

more or less.

[cedar verge]

no-neutral switch would still fail with a dumb bulb switched off unless you mean getting rid of that too.

[azure breach]

Ah it would? So I wouldn't be able to control via HA?

[cedar verge]

getting power the way no-neutral stuff does requires some power to be flowing through the circuit. which is enough when a hue bulb is on but not off. a dumb bulb will also have no power flowing when off.

[azure breach]

What's the point in no-neutral switches then?

[cedar verge]

I ask myself that all the time.

[azure breach]

I'm confused

So then my options are:

1. Pay an electrician to install neutral wires (expensive?)
2. Install bypass capacitors (very unsure about the viability of this)
3. Cover up the switch and use a battery-powered switch on top

Looks like this blog post pretty much draws this conclusion: https://howmation.com/en_UK/blog/article/smart-switch-smart-bulb-no-neutral-3-solutions

[cedar verge]

At this point, I would probably just put a battery powered switch over the top and call it a day.

[azure breach]

This is what I did with our master bedroom. Not super fond of adding more and more battery-powered devices to my house though.

It works well, but more batteries to maintain...

Also, a lot of cheap-looking plastic.

Oh wow the battery still hasn't dropped below 100%

[cedar verge]

they tend to last years for this kinda thing. but what you can do is every 1.5-2 years or something just go around and replace them all. so you are not playing whack a mole with them when they do start to go.

[azure breach]

Thinking of buying another 5

Good thing I have the Hue Hub Pro, because I'm going to have >50 Hue devices at this rate

My original plan was to do everything directly through HA, but the extra reliability of the hub and its low power consumption is kinda good. Since my lighting is reliant on the uptime, it's good to have that seperate system.