Relays: will I burn down my house?

[warped plinth]

Hello - I have read a few times that smart sockets/switches with relays may burn down my house.

Smart socket wise I have

ClickSmart+ 1 gang (switching only): https://scolmore.com/product/CMA30035#tech (rated 13A and 240V)

ClickSmart+ 2 gang (switching only): https://scolmore.com/product/CMA30036#tech (rated 13A and 250V)

IKEA INSPELNING (switching + monitoring): https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/p/inspelning-plug-smart-energy-monitor-80569842/ (rated 240V and 3120W)

Shelly EM Mini 4 (monitoring only): https://www.shelly.com/products/shelly-em-mini-gen4 (rated 16A, 240V and 3840W)

End device wise, I have:

Washer / Dryer: Maximum Power 1900 - 2250 W (Wash) / 1000 W (Dry)

Hair Dryer: Wattage: 1600W

Our vacuum is wireless, so I presume is less likely to blow/break the relay.

I have 2 questions:

1. Which smart sockets are riskiest/safest for these devices?
2. What other devices should I check the max power values for? (e.g. high risk/draw devices)
3. Is there an article that explains the risk of relays? I appreciate it but having a hard time convicing others of it based.

[fiery widget]

if it has a relay then it has a low inductive load rating.
the ratings on the spec sheet are almost always a resistive load rating.
I would absolutely not trust the "clicksmart" stuff tbh.

is the wahser/dryer on a "fused spur" or just connected directly to a ring?
hair dryer would be fine on a inspelning.
wireless vacuum charging is likely resistive so should be fine on a inspelning

one of the issues is that random things happen. you end up with mains power vaccum at some point or you have a tradesman in with a mains powertool. then you have to explain to the tradesman "dont use that socket right next to where you need power for power tools. use the one on the other side of the room instead... thats gunna be awkward at best. (however "let me take the smartplug out of your way" is fairly normal)

[warped plinth]

is the wahser/dryer on a "fused spur" or just connected directly to a ring?
Pretty sure it is directly connected to the ring

[fiery widget]

if your appliances are on a fused spur then using the em-mini on the load side of the spur is a great option (I do this myself) as the spur will be rated at 13A and the monitor at 16A so its within spec.

if you are directly connected to a ring its more difficult. as you would want to wire it inline on the cable between the 13A plug and the appliance so its protected by a fuse within its spec.

the em-mini is not suitable for a standard double socket as generally the combined spec of a double socket is 20A and its also protected by likely a 32A MCB. (plus it would be a pain to actually wire)

[warped plinth]

the em-mini is not suitable for a standard double socket as generally the combined spec of a double socket is 20A and its also protected by likely a 32A MCB. (plus it would be a pain to actually wire)
I thought there would be two em-minis in a dual socket, doesn't that solve the overloading?

[fiery widget]

i use em-mini's on various appliances.
for washing machine i have it on the load side of a spur.
for dishwasher i wired it inline on the flex between the socket on the ring and the appliance.

[fiery widget]

a double socket generally only has 1 set of power input terminals. there are some which have 2 seperate connections but they are rare. or you could use a euromodule setup to have seperatly wired sockets.

[warped plinth]

if it has a relay then it has a low inductive load rating.
Power tools, wired vacuums, hair dryers, washer, dryers.

What else should I be worried about running on relay'd sockets?

[fiery widget]

anything that has an induction motor. so anything that spins/compresses etc...

high power fans could be an issue but not likely with most household fans

hair dryers power is mostly resistive. it does have a fan but its not the main part of the power. the heating elemental is the biggest part of the power which is resistive.

[warped plinth]

Appreciate the context 🙂

This is making me think about ripping out the smart home stuff and just doing light bulbs. Its almost like the tech at this stage is not worth the value it brings, sadly. I haven't got too deep yet, it would be removing 2 x shelly EM minis and swapping 10 x click smart sockets.

I thought the Shelly being top of the range would be safe, but I don't really want to risk burning down the house because of some electrical work that I didn't fully think through (a licensed electrician is doing the install but still)

[fiery widget]

those click things are whitelabled Chinese crap. theres some companies buying up old defunct electical companies to have a reputation to sell them under. there will be no recource if they fail.
there is a reason that the big names are not making sockets... thers a danger to it. people will missuse and it will damage their reputation

[warped plinth]

Yeah, I learnt about the clicksmart being bad after they were installed, but now they are most of my Zigbee repeater network 🙁

[fiery widget]

shelly stuff is good but you have to know how to fit it in the right places. a qualified spark should know

[fiery widget]

eek, i would swap them out for normal sockets and get a bunch of inspelning's to bulk out the mesh.

[warped plinth]

Maybe revisiting in 203x with matter is the way?

Are the inspelnings better rated/safer than the shelly EM minis for double sockets?

[fiery widget]

if you have a spark coming anyway then ask them to put the appliance on a fused spur and then have the em-mini on the load side. adding a spur is not a big job.

[fiery widget]

honestly, I think matter has a huge amount of problems currently and if they are not solved it will die because nobody will trust it.

[fiery widget]

just use 2 inspelning's on the outside 😛

then they are on a single socket. not trying to do both.

[warped plinth]

Would that be safer? I think so because 2 x 13A rated inspelnings is better than 1 x 16A em mini.

But the EM mini doesn't have the inductive problems, because it doesn't have relay, whereas the inspelnings do have a relay 🥹

[warped plinth]

Is that a local change within the socket or is it likely to involve running new cables back to the central breaker board?

[fiery widget]

so a normal double socket can provide invidiually 13A to each socket BUT only up to a combined of 20A. e.g. 10A and 10A.
this means you are using a 16A rated device to provide 20A and its only protected by 32A protection. its all shades of problems.

[fiery widget]

if its an inductive load i would wire a em-mini in line after the socket instead of a smartplug

[fiery widget]

its local at the socket. 1 sec ill diagram

[warped plinth]

its only protected by 32A protection
I understand everything in that message other than this. Can you explain? Does it refer to shelly or the outlet/socket?

[fiery widget]

the 32A protection is in the consumer unit.
a double socket connected to both sides of a ring could in theory pull 32A before tripping the MCB

this is an example of a spur. you will have them around. you get both switched and non switched versions.

putting an appance on a spur is not a big job they replace socket with spur and then add another socket which is connected via the spur

there are a few variants of it to fit whever you need but a spark will be able to get the right stuff

[warped plinth]

Thanks for the diagram!

I guess you put a 16A fuse in that spur to match the em mini gen 4 limit?

[fiery widget]

realistically you are gunna be putting a 13A fuse in it. if your applance is on a normal plug its limtied at 13A anyway.

the em-mini needs protection of a max of 16A. it doesnt have to be maxed out. but if it wasnt on a spur and straight off the ring it would only have 32A protection at the mcb which is bad

[warped plinth]

Got it, and would there be 2 fused spurs for the dual socket?

E.g. a washer and a dryer with separate cables , currently on the same double socket

[fiery widget]

yeah you could ask for the spark to remove the double and put in 2 fused spurs coming off the ring connected to 2 single sockets. so that each appance is on its own spur.
this is a fairly normal thing.
then its just a matter of asking them to wire the 2 em-mini's inline behind each of the single sockets.

[warped plinth]

Thanks for the advice

[fiery widget]

btw running both applances off a double might be pushing close to max rating btw. i wouldnt want to run both at the same time.

also you might get a bit of a cowboy that says "just use 2 smartplugs it will be fine". if they do that. either fire them or just remind them of who is paying.

most sparks are pretty good now but you get some older ones that are resistant to change. "i have done this for 40 years i know what i am doing" etc...

[fiery widget]

no worries, good luck with it. if you have any other questions feel free to ping me in a thread.

[warped plinth]

Thanks for the advice so far.

I think my electrician might think I know more than I do, and may over trust me, I'll try and give him all the info and get his views

Could a Shelly EM Gen4 be used on the fuse board to monitor lighting circuits (I think these are 5V)?

[fiery widget]

"Shelly EM Gen4" is not a product. could you clarify which you thing you mean?
ct clamp based monitoring is best inside consumer unit.
nothing in this situation is 5v

[warped plinth]

I meant the Shelly EM Mini Gen4, just forgot the mini

And for the consumer unit, I figured the EM mini is smaller than clamps, and the lighting circuits are on 5A breakers from memory, so should be safe compared to using the EM mini on 32A circuits

[fiery widget]

so... yes you could use a em mini in a consumer unit. if its on a circuit that is protected by an MCB/RCBO that is a max of 16A.
do you have spare spaces in the unit? you can 3d-print something like THIS (random example I found and have not tested) which allow for mounting it neatly.

however if you want something that will fit better then there is an option that is designed for this sort of thing. give me a moment to find it.

[fiery widget]

there is this product - https://www.shelly.com/products/shelly-3em-63t-gen3
it is designed to sit on top of the mcbs and its basically 3 ct clamps in one so you can monitor 3 circuits with it and it sits neatly in the unit.
you can get it with tags to screw directly into the mcb to connect to the circuit or with cables to wire them in so it would be able to float instead of totally fixed on.
it depends on exact setup and preference what would be best i imagine.

[warped plinth]

Two of my big motivations are:

1. my breaker is pretty much full, so the Shelly mini could be losely installed with the wires rather than mounted to leave my last rail spot free
2. I was trying to stick to Zigbee as much as possible, and the EM mini 4 is the only zigbee energy monitor right now

Maybe I should just bite the WiFi bullet? Then I get devices designed for monitoring at the consumer unit level

[fiery widget]

as long as you have a decent wifi AP then having a few extra wifi devices is not gunna hurt too much.
shelly are slowly expanding the gen4 lineup to include more products so the above may get a gen4 version at some point in the futre. although i suspect its not at the top of the priority list.

[warped plinth]

Got it

Do you know the difference between the 63W and 63T models of that energy monitor?

[fiery widget]

tag / wire

[fiery widget]

the tag setup is likely neater and wont allow for it to move. but it may not fit correctly in all mcb's i guess.
also means if you want to replace an mcb you would have to rewire 3 to get the mcb your replacing out.

pros/cons to both. perhaps work with your spark to decide which is better for you if you go that way.

[warped plinth]

Coming back to this thread, I am hesitant to make changes to the wiring/socket of the washer + dyer because the space there is very tight.

Instead it looks like this is perfect (other than WiFi instead of ZigBee 🙁 ) for me: https://www.athom.tech/blank-1/no-relay-power-monitoring-uk-plug-for-esphome

But I saw this about it being 10A only: #1407834729968959611 message

What are the downsides to that product? Am I missing something?

As it has no relay, all electrical workloads should be fine as I understand
It is rated to 16A (or 10A, TBC above) which should be the same as the socket as I understand.
It has a few protections (overload, shortage, temperature) which seems good.

[vagrant ridge]

I have the EU version and it works fine for me

[warped plinth]

Nice! Can you fit 2 next to each other in a dual socket?

[fiery widget]

I have 4 of these sitting on my desk right now 😛 I plan to use them for some appliances.

[fiery widget]

sec, i can test that for you 😛

[warped plinth]

Great! Thanks 😊

Anything that you wouldn't use these for? Any downsides to them over the Shelly's?

[fiery widget]

No major downsides.
Something to note though is that they have a button because its the same design as the standard one just with a bridge instead of a relay on the board. The button obviously does not switch the power output because there is no relay.
This is obvious to you because you are getting it for this reason... however other people may not understand. so if someone is assuming it has turned something off and it hasnt it could be a issue. Its a dumb corner case but people are dumb...

[warped plinth]

That is very minor in terms of downsides, thanks!

Another one that slipped my mind is congesting my 2.4GHz WiFi but I guess that is unavoidable

[fiery widget]

Yeah, I switched to having a specific 2.4 only SSID for IoT stuff to try and keep it at least causing chaos in 1 place.

I hope they make a new version of the no-relay plugs at some point these are based on the older plug with the older ESP in them.

[vagrant ridge]

Mines has not the same form factor, are squared

And remember, you can and must update them via ESPHOME 🙂

[fiery widget]

tbh , If they are working then there is no real need to update them?

Sure, I mess with firmware on devices all the time. But for the most part it is probably not needed and may also result in you having to re-calibrate etc...

[warped plinth]

This will be my first ESPHOME device. What is the setup like/needed for it?

Also, did you have to pay import duty/fees or VAT for these orders to the UK?

[fiery widget]

If you don't want/need to mess with the firmware it is dead easy. it broadcasts an AP when you first power it on. You connect to it and access webui to add your wifi credentials. once it connects to wifi it will auto pop up on HA (assuming its on same network/vlan) and just work. worst case it doesnt auto pop up and you can manually add it by ip.

[fiery widget]

There were no extra/surprise fees for me.

[warped plinth]

Thanks, I've bitten the bullet and got 4 x No Relay Power Monitoring UK Plug for ESPHome 🤞

[fiery widget]

No worries, Good Luck with them. 🙂

[vagrant ridge]

I'm a programmer, call it professional deformation 😂

[fiery widget]

lol, Fair enough. I Do mess with the firmware on some of my devices but honestly I have been trying to cut back a bit on stuff that doesnt really need to be updated that much.
I got to a point where was an ESPHome update and I was like "oh yay, 20 devices to compile firmware for"...

[warped plinth]

@fiery widget I presume your message (#1407834729968959611 message) about them being rated for 10A is out of date? 🤞

[fiery widget]

So there is (or maybe was...) actually mixed information that has been changed on these. but the plug itself has printed on it that it is rated at 13A. So I have taken that as the definitive really. Do you actually have an appliance thats pulling more then 10A anyway?

[warped plinth]

My washer / dryer pull up to 2250W and my hair dryer 1600W.

I haven't checked my dishwasher

[fiery widget]

So less then 10A (just) anyway. The dishwasher is likely about the same as the washer/dryer.

[warped plinth]

These have arrived and I've got them added, initially they look good.

I've made sure to give them reserved IPs in DHCP so that they don't get mixed up when leases expire, etc.

Which sensor do you use for Device energy consumption in the HA energy view? I see Energy, Total Energy and Total Energy Since Boot. I presume it is one of the first two.

[fiery widget]

I still haven't actually deployed the ones I have but after a quick look at the firmware config I think thatTotal Energy is probably what you want to use.

[warped plinth]

Thanks! Does the firmware explain the difference between energy and total energy? Asking for my own understanding / curiosity

[fiery widget]

Total Energy is saved out as a global and should correctly persist between hardware power cycles and such.

[warped plinth]

Coming back to this thread as I have got my Anthoms setup and am happy with them, but I have seen threads about AliBaba smart sockets melting under high loads.

I have got my washer and my dryer (separately) plugged into these no relay sockets: https://www.athom.tech/blank-1/no-relay-power-monitoring-uk-plug-for-esphome

They are 'rated' for 16A per the description:

📦 Specifications
Parameter Description
MCU ESP8285（2MB） Wi-Fi
Energy IC HLW8032
Relay None – guaranteed no interruptions
Firmware ESPHome pre-installed
Voltage 100～240V AC
Plug Type UK
Protocols ESPHome API / MQTT
Current 16A
But I don't know how much to trust that. They are useful but I don't want to burn down my house to get power measurements

Not really sure what re-assurement I'm looking for but happy to hear anything here

[fiery widget]

With the load you have plus a realistic expectation of time under load I would not expect you to have any problems.

[warped plinth]

These are the amperages being captured

It rarely hits double digits, so should be within the ~14.5A supported usage, as I understand anyway

[fiery widget]

The fuse in your appliance's plug (should) limit it to 13A anyway, And yes as you say it doesn't get to >10A very much and when it does its not for very long.