In a new construction project, I'm looking to install devices for each light, so

[peak forge]

Good day,

In a new construction project, I'm looking to install devices for each light, socket (preferably with a low power consumption and 16A), and blinds. I've seen the ZBMinIR2 Extreme Zigbee for lights and the Sonoff MiniZBRBS Zigbee for blinds. What are your opinions on them? Are there any other alternatives? I haven't found anything for sockets.

[simple notch]

looks like zigbee is your protocol of choice? shelly gen4 devices support zigbee and worth having a look at.

[peak forge]

Suggestions are welcome; it's a clean installation. I previously used Wi-Fi, but I want to avoid it as much as possible and switch to a low-power, stable, and reliable protocol.

Is Shelly better than the Sonoff devices I mentioned?

[simple notch]

there's probably not a lot of difference. I tend to recommend shelly because i have had good experiences with them. they also support multiple protocols so if you change your mind down the line you have some options without ripping stuff out.

[peak forge]

I've seen that the Shelly Gen 4 uses Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, or Zigbee, which is fine, although I probably wouldn't ever use Wi-Fi or Bluetooth, so it wouldn't be an advantage (the price is more than double that of the Sonoff mentioned, and I don't know if it's really worth it).

In any case, which specific Shelly Generation 4 device do you recommend for:

Lights
Electric blinds
16A sockets

?

It is important that they all have consumption measurement

And most importantly, local use, not cloud or manufacturers (until now I've used Esphome and Tasmota) in wifi

[simple notch]

the shelly stuff does have some cloud options but its entirely optional. you can provision via wifi webui (it broadcasts an ap). or via the app with BT I think. whatever the case it can all be done locally. if they are on wifi you can have HA use them as BT proxies which is handy if you have some BLE sensors etc.... so there are some benefits to that.
for lights - https://www.shelly.com/products/shelly-1pm-mini-gen4
for blinds - https://www.shelly.com/products/shelly-2pm-gen4
for MONITORING sockets up to 16A - https://www.shelly.com/products/shelly-em-mini-gen4 (I would not recommend using a relay for sockets)

[peak forge]

thanks for reply!

I see that those devices don't have power consumption measurement, is that correct?

Why don't you recommend using a relay for the outlets? What will you use instead?

[simple notch]

they all have power/energy monitoring that's what the PM/EM stands for in their names. its also in the spec.

because someone will inevitability plug an inductive load into it and it could arc and immolate itself which can obviously lead to bigger issues.
putting smart plugs on devices that are safe to have relays on that you need control of tends to be safer.

[peak forge]

Understood, thank you very much for your heads-up 🙂

Installing smart plugs on devices with relays that need to be controlled is usually safer. What do you recommend here?

[simple notch]

I recently got a bunch of ikea zigbee smart plugs that I am pretty happy with.

[peak forge]

Oh, you mean an external plug/adapter?

I thought it was built-in.

Shelly costs twice as much compared to Sonoff

[ashen zealot]

And the good thing is every ikea smart home thing right now uses zigbee.

[fading forge]

Can you provide examples of inductive loads? What should I never connect to a plug connected to a smart switch? I'm thinking about a vacuum cleaner... Could I safely connect a smart switch to an air extractor for my toilets? Any risk if I use an external smart plug like Ikea Inspelning with a fridge or a washing machine?

[fresh wedge]

inductive load generally refers to AC motors, yeah. fans, compressors, vacuums, some kitchen appliances, etc. Things that deal with electromagnetism.

fwiw, every device is some combination of an "inductive", "capacitive", and "resistive" load, nothing is ever purely one or the other. The problem is specifically that on loads which are primarily inductive and high power, you might exceed the design limits of the relays in a smart switch even if the device's rated power (W) is within the spec.

[fresh wedge]

like, you're unlikely to hit any issues using a 15A capable smart plug to switch on/off a 0.25A desk fan, for example. The problem is that unless the vendor publishes specs saying what the inductive load rating for the smart relay/switch is, you have no idea what the point is where it will start having problems, and it can be a safety risk.

[simple notch]

as @fresh wedge said, anything with a motor. the normal ones are as you say vacuum cleaners. and also mains powered power tools (drills etc...). a low power fan is probably fine but again as already mentioned. manufactures most don't even put an inductive load rating on stuff so you don't actually know what is safe.

my general rule is that if there is a socket that is easily accessible then someone will plug a vacuum into it at some point. even if you tell people not to. because they don't understand and don't want to. got workman in and they need to plug a power tool in? good luck explaining to them they cant use the socket right next to them but instead the special one out in the hall with an extension lead.

even if you think you can deal with the limits. you must account for others.

large inductive appliances absolutely should not be on anything with a relay. if you absolutely must have the ability to switch them then you should set up a heavy load contactor which can then be triggered by a smaller relay.

[fresh wedge]

Something kind of amusing is that a contactor is technically an inductive load itself (albeit a very small one) because the normal way they're constructed is a little electromagnet to pull the contracts closed.

[peak forge]

This is quite interesting, and I had no idea it was like this.

Now I have a lot of doubts about what to do with the plugs, since my original idea was to have smart plugs throughout most of the house, with energy meters so I could monitor consumption independently and by zone.

[simple notch]

monitoring is fine, you can get monitors that do not have relays. so you can read power+energy but not switch them.

which is what i linked previously for monitoring sockets up to 16A

[fading forge]

Is it safe to use smart plugs instead of relays with inductive loads?

[fresh wedge]

Unless the smart plug explicitly says so, no. Internally smart plugs and relays are almost identical.

[fading forge]

IKEA Inspelning says:

Model: INSPELNING plug smart
Type: E2206
Input: 220-240 Vac, 50/60 Hz
Max output power: 3680 W / 16 A
Resistive load/ Max 300W motor load

Not sure if I can connect a washing machine or fridge to it

[tribal geode]

nope, those are relays and wont work very long until inside is fried together.

[simple notch]

if the smart plug can switch stuff on/off then it has a relay in it.

[simple notch]

indeed, you should not.

some people will say "its fine i have done it for ages" but these are also the people that go all surprised pikachu when it goes badly. and post "xyz smart plug nearly burned my house down, its dangerous. nobody should buy from them ever again" when they cant accept they were wrong.
also its worth pointing out if the worst does happen, there is an argument for insurance to not pay out if investigation shows you did something wrong...

I think this is why there are basically no smart sockets from reputable companies. cos some idiot will plug something they are not supposed to into it then blame them.

[tribal geode]

yup, says it all..

[fading forge]

👍🏻

[tribal geode]

a friend of mine was running his entire appartment with free electricity tapped before meter.. using phone cable... Told him it was russian roulette

[twilit birch]

Thank you from the rest of us learning from this!

Is there anyway to get the BLE benefits you mentioned with some of these outlets without limitations on inductive loads?

Am I better off just plugging in a device that's purpose-built for BLE into the standard outlet for this use if I don't want/need to upgrade the outlet?

[simple notch]

there's plenty of options for bluetooth proxies. you can use pretty much any esp32.

[vast fox]

Yes, I use that and it works perfect

[fresh wedge]

The specs you pasted are pretty clear: "Max 300W motor load" means that they have tested it for an inductive or motor load, just just have to make sure that you don't exceed 300W when using such a load.

[tribal geode]

Hijacking for quick question.. @simple notch recommend Shelly 2PM Gen4 for my roller-shutters using zigbee?

[simple notch]

no direct experience, according to the z2m database the 2pm gen4 can be in "switch mode" or "cover mode" and I would image that in cover mode it would be fine. how you set it up is beyond what i know though.
However I can say that if I was doing that job than it is the product I would try first.