shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 4:41 AM

#

ok we can continue in here

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 4:41 AM

#

thank you

#

checking my network to make sure I didn't assume one esp32 was another...mistaken identity

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 4:41 AM

#

yup, it happens 🙂

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 4:42 AM

#

my network is a mess with this stuff...most relegated to an IoT vlan...but I think I mis-resolved an apollo air1. Checking now

#

yeah...it looks correct 🤔

#

Time level Tag Message
21:39:21 [I] [safe_mode:041]
Boot seems successful; resetting boot loop counter
21:39:21 [D] [esp32.preferences:114]
Saving 1 preferences to flash...
21:39:21 [D] [esp32.preferences:143]
Saving 1 preferences to flash: 0 cached, 1 written, 0 failed
21:42:41 [W] [api.connection:104]
ESPHome Logs 2024.8.3 (192.168.1.4): Connection closed
21:42:41 [W] [component:157]
Component api set Warning flag: unspecified

#

but via a web interface ... let me unplug and see if the heartbeat dies as a confirmation

#

yup, web interface when hitting the IP. Unplug the S3box3 and no longer accessible. That must be it. I see it went offline in my router

#

now that it's powered up, screen is inop

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 4:46 AM

#

that sounds like it is not flashed with the new firmware. just double checking that the config doesnt have web_server

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 4:46 AM

#

the s3 is on the same vlan as this computer and the hassio instance

#

running "clear build files" - I can start again...I may have to, now

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 4:47 AM

#

did you change the default name of the device in the config before flashing, or everything as it is

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 4:47 AM

#

It asked for a name in the modal and I did change it there, but didn't edit the config aside from the IP change you had suggested

#

okay, this is familiar now: when it gets to the catatonic state of black screen, any attempt to install again yields a fatal:

AssertionError: Error: Missing Python executable file /root/.platformio/penv/.espidf-4.4.7/bin/python:

#

and only way I've found forward from that is deleting the device and going back to square one here: https://esphome.io/projects/index.html

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 4:49 AM

#

what hardware are you running ESPHome on and is it as an HA add-on

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 4:49 AM

#

Pi5 8gb

#

yes, addon installed and running. Other devices (ratgdo, esp-econet and two apollo-air-1) working well with it

#

okay...interesting... I see 2 devices in my ESPHome dashboard now that both resolve to the S3Box3

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 4:50 AM

#

ok ... we should be good then

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 4:51 AM

#

Office Voice
esphome-web-05026c.yaml

#

Office Voice
esp32-s3-box-3-05026c.yaml

#

one is offline, other is online

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 4:51 AM

#

delete both of them

#

then go into integrations and delete any from there too

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 4:51 AM

#

the online has a "visit" button that pops a tab that has that direct dashboard (with really no info on it)

#

okay, none are in integrations, both deleted from the esphome dashboard

#

one remains with the option to "Adopt"

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 4:52 AM

#

ok click adopt

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 4:52 AM

#

Installing now

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 4:52 AM

#

then install and change nothing

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 4:53 AM

#

Really appreciate your patience and help on this

#

I just kinda threw them in a drawer and assumed there was a fix coming. But after a few months, it's gotta be me

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 4:53 AM

#

you're welcome ,

#

yeah they should work fine

#

it's just getting the planets to align and all will be good

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 4:54 AM

#

the ollama changes had piqued my interest in resurrecting them

#

still waiting, but so far so good:
[21:54:24][I][safe_mode:041]: Boot seems successful; resetting boot loop counter
[21:54:24][D][esp32.preferences:114]: Saving 1 preferences to flash...
[21:54:24][D][esp32.preferences:143]: Saving 1 preferences to flash: 0 cached, 1 written, 0 failed

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 4:55 AM

#

yes, there has been quite a lot of improvements

#

yes that looks good... now you need to add it to HA>> settings >>devices and services>> esphome

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 4:55 AM

#

no option to close, only stop - so assuming it thinks there's more to be done, but seems stopped here

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 4:56 AM

#

did it go through the compile and then upload before the logs above ?

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 4:56 AM

#

I believe so

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 4:56 AM

#

ok , add it to the integration

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 4:56 AM

#

Home Assistant 2024.9.1 (192.168.1.4): Connected successfully

#

added via IP

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 4:57 AM

#

ok , and what is happening now on the display

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 4:57 AM

#

still blank

#

I see the "Office Voice" device in the ESPHome integration, but it's pretty much empty. Only option is a disabled "Firmware" attribute

#

ESPHome dashboard, I see it and appears online and working

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 4:59 AM

#

can you view logs

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 4:59 AM

#

piper/whisper were disabled ... just turned them back on. I don't exect that was the problem thus far, but...

#

I see an "Office Voice" "Discovered" notification and prompt to configure

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 5:00 AM

#

no the issue is that HA isn't connecting to the device. It shouldnt be showing as office voice as that isn't the default name 🤔

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 5:01 AM

#

I click on logs, I see it connect, the wifi strength/channel...all that seems good/expected/reasonable

#

[21:59:33][C][api:139]: API Server:
[21:59:33][C][api:140]: Address: esphome-web-05026c.local:6053
[21:59:33][C][api:144]: Using noise encryption: NO
[21:59:33][C][improv_serial:032]: Improv Serial:

#

those are the last four lines - it seems like it's maybe cut off

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 5:01 AM

#

ok

#

if you click edit on the esphome dashboard device card ... what is in the config

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 5:02 AM

#

3 chunks:

#

substitutions:
name: esphome-web-05026c
friendly_name: Office Voice

esphome:
name: ${name}
friendly_name: ${friendly_name}
min_version: 2024.6.0
name_add_mac_suffix: false
platformio_options:
board_build.flash_mode: dio
project:
name: esphome.web
version: dev

esp32:
board: esp32-s3-devkitc-1
framework:
type: arduino

#

Enable logging

shadow scaffold · 2024-09-14T04:41:19.109Z

S3 BOX Installation | Home Assistant | Page 1

logger:

Enable Home Assistant API

api:

Allow Over-The-Air updates

ota:

platform: esphome

Allow provisioning Wi-Fi via serial

improv_serial:

wifi:

Set up a wifi access point

ap: {}

In combination with the `ap` this allows the user

to provision wifi credentials to the device via WiFi AP.

captive_portal:

#

Enable logging

logger:

Enable Home Assistant API

api:

Allow Over-The-Air updates

ota:

platform: esphome

Allow provisioning Wi-Fi via serial

improv_serial:

wifi:

Set up a wifi access point

ap: {}

In combination with the `ap` this allows the user

to provision wifi credentials to the device via WiFi AP.

captive_portal:

#

dashboard_import:
package_import_url: github://esphome/firmware/esphome-web/esp32s3.yaml@main
import_full_config: true

Sets up Bluetooth LE (Only on ESP32) to allow the user

to provision wifi credentials to the device.

esp32_improv:
authorizer: none

To have a "next url" for improv serial

web_server:

#

sorry, yaml comments blasting as headers

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 5:03 AM

#

ah ok ... that is just the base esphome config and not the s3box3 config

#

whne you go to the projects page, make sure to select esp32 - s3- box 3 then click connect

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 5:04 AM

#

yeah, that's what I had been doing

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 5:05 AM

#

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 5:05 AM

#

including this most recent flash

#

yup, exactly

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 5:05 AM

#

weird... it is just installing the base config

#

ok you can overwrite it manually by editing the config, overwrite everything with the contents here
https://github.com/BigBobbas/esphome_firmware/blob/main/ESP32-S3-Box-3 - Stock-FW/esp32-s3-box-stock-esphome-20240807.yaml

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 5:06 AM

#

and as a sanity check, this is the specific device (blue base): https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805983226753.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.order_list_main.10.3c495e5bKglEDh&gatewayAdapt=glo2usa

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 5:06 AM

#

yip, thats the puppy

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 5:07 AM

#

WIth the install wizards (I think I've used 3 different ones), I was trying to quadruple check that I was selecting the correct one

#

saved the config you linked, installing yields this familiar error:
AssertionError: Error: Missing Python executable file /root/.platformio/penv/.espidf-4.4.7/bin/python:

#

in ESPHome dashboard, one "discovered" and one "online", which I think I need to delete

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 5:08 AM

#

what version of ESPHome do you have installed? it will tell you at the bottom of the dashboard

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 5:09 AM

#

ESPHome by Open Home Foundation | Fund development | 2024.8.3 Documentation

#

I'm assuming the 2024.8.3 is the version

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 5:11 AM

#

yup, thats the latest .. so should be good.... the error you keep getting - i would re-install the add-on to see if that fixes it

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 5:11 AM

#

okay. I may run a backup just in case

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 5:11 AM

#

👍

#

just going to grab a quick coffee .... early here ... need wake up juice

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 5:12 AM

#

very late here...may need the same soon

#

(backed-up, uninstalling now)

#

installing ESPHome (not beta, not dev) now.

#

brb

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 5:17 AM

#

bk

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 5:17 AM

#

(back)

#

esphome resisntalled, trying to install the edited config to the s3 now

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 5:17 AM

#

ok so now do you have the device card in the dash ... with the full config pasted in ?

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 5:18 AM

#

yes - but it was unable to flash it before. Seeing if it will now

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 5:18 AM

#

ok cool

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 5:19 AM

#

error...different error

#

INFO ESPHome 2024.8.3
INFO Reading configuration /config/esphome/esphome-web-05026c.yaml...
INFO Updating https://github.com/esphome/esphome.git@pull/5230/head
INFO Updating https://github.com/jesserockz/esphome-components.git@None
WARNING GPIO0 is a strapping PIN and should only be used for I/O with care.
Attaching external pullup/down resistors to strapping pins can cause unexpected failures.
See https://esphome.io/guides/faq.html#why-am-i-getting-a-warning-about-strapping-pins
INFO Generating C++ source...
INFO Updating https://github.com/jesserockz/esp32-s3-box-3-board.git@main
INFO Updating https://github.com/espressif/esp-adf@v2.5
INFO Updating submodules (components/esp-sr, components/esp-adf-libs) for https://github.com/espressif/esp-adf@v2.5
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/local/bin/esphome", line 8, in <module>
    sys.exit(main())
             ^^^^^^
  File "/esphome/esphome/__main__.py", line 1014, in main
    return run_esphome(sys.argv)
           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  File "/esphome/esphome/__main__.py", line 1001, in run_esphome
    rc = POST_CONFIG_ACTIONS[args.command](args, config)
         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  File "/esphome/esphome/__main__.py", line 485, in command_run
    exit_code = write_cpp(config)
                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

#

  File "/esphome/esphome/__main__.py", line 195, in write_cpp
    return write_cpp_file()
           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  File "/esphome/esphome/__main__.py", line 213, in write_cpp_file
    writer.write_cpp(code_s)
  File "/esphome/esphome/writer.py", line 352, in write_cpp
    copy_src_tree()
  File "/esphome/esphome/writer.py", line 305, in copy_src_tree
    copy_files()
  File "/esphome/esphome/components/esp32/__init__.py", line 709, in copy_files
    shutil.copytree(
  File "/usr/lib/python3.11/shutil.py", line 561, in copytree
    return _copytree(entries=entries, src=src, dst=dst, symlinks=symlinks,
           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  File "/usr/lib/python3.11/shutil.py", line 515, in _copytree
    raise Error(errors)
shutil.Error: [('/data/idf_components/b0ad5728/components/esp-sr/docs/myapp/bin/python', '/data/build/esp32-s3-box-3/components/esp-sr/docs/myapp/bin/python', "[Errno 17] File exists: 'python3' -> '/data/build/esp32-s3-box-3/components/esp-sr/docs/myapp/bin/python'"), ('/data/idf_components/b0ad5728/components/esp-sr/docs/myapp/bin/python3', '/data/build/esp32-s3-box-3/components/esp-sr/docs/myapp/bin/python3', "[Errno 17] File exists: '/usr/bin/python3' -> '/data/build/esp32-s3-box-3/components/esp-sr/docs/myapp/bin/python3'"), ('/data/idf_components/b0ad5728/components/esp-sr/docs/myapp/lib64', '/data/build/esp32-s3-box-3/components/esp-sr/docs/myapp/lib64', "[Errno 17] File exists: 'lib' -> '/data/build/esp32-s3-box-3/components/esp-sr/docs/myapp/lib64'")]

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 5:20 AM

#

click retry

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 5:21 AM

#

okay...seems to be doing more things second time

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 5:22 AM

#

i have just flashed from the project page and it has flashed fine and is up and running ... i was concerened that there may be an issue with the web installer

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 5:23 AM

#

yeah, I kinda figured it was something corrupted with mine after sitting for so long with no upstream fix

#

things being broken for a few days seems expected for some stuff like this. Two months? Less likely

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 5:25 AM

#

if this fails ... we do have another option. I have a project for the S3 box that also enables the touchscreen and allows control of HA devices amongst other stuff... so we could always try that

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 5:25 AM

#

I had actually tried that when I thought it was a mainline esphome issue and it similarly had issues connecting to hassio

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 5:26 AM

#

interesting... 🤔 i'm sure we can sort it

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 5:26 AM

#

this is you? https://buymeacoffee.com/bigbobba

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 5:27 AM

#

it is indeed

#

ahh man ... you didn't have to do that 🙏 thank you very much

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 5:28 AM

#

"thank you" is nice. $ is nicer.

#

you also really didn't have to do this.

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 5:29 AM

#

well i can't deny it helps 😉 but it's not my motivation. helping people is 🙂

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 5:29 AM

#

yeah, I hear you. I have had side projects I was happy to give away (and some I'm still trying to)

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 5:29 AM

#

anyway ... lets get this darn thing working 🙂

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 5:30 AM

#

still compiling. Pi5 is workin'

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 5:30 AM

#

yeah ... it pretty much maxes ram out with the micro wake word 'stuff'

#

even with 8gb

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 5:30 AM

#

yeah, the s3 was interesting to me over the m5 stack (which I also have a handful of) for the onboard wake

#

======================== [SUCCESS] Took 591.00 seconds ========================

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 5:31 AM

#

yes... it works well now. and will get better

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 5:31 AM

#

INFO Resolving IP address of esp32-s3-box-3.local
ERROR Error resolving IP address of esp32-s3-box-3.local. Is it connected to WiFi?
ERROR (If this error persists, please set a static IP address: https://esphome.io/components/wifi.html#manual-ips)
ERROR Error resolving IP address: Error resolving address with mDNS: Did not respond. Maybe the device is offline., [Errno -5] No address associated with hostname

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 5:31 AM

#

ok now the important bit ... is it uploading

#

nope lol

#

ok if you add the use_address: line in again

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 5:32 AM

#

hitting it directly via URL and the dashboard does load, so device is online

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 5:32 AM

#

then i'm affraid it's a save an install again ... however it shouldn't take as long as it's already built it

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 5:32 AM

#

yup

#

does it matter where the use_address lives?

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 5:33 AM

#

it needs to go withing the wifi: block so directly under password :

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 5:33 AM

#

https://esphome.io/components/esphome.html#changing-esphome-node-name

#

yup, cool cool

#

did the config you previously linked need to be edited to include any chagnes on my end (aside from use_address)?

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 5:36 AM

#

if it didn't pull in secrets then add the following with your ip:

wifi: 
  ssid: !secret wifi_ssid
  password: !secret wifi_password
  use_address: 192.168.1.233

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 5:36 AM

#

okay, yeah - I had expected it pulled in secrets but didn't see them...and this looks like a complete config, not including other bits that would have it

#

uploading now

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 5:38 AM

#

🤞

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 5:39 AM

#

it looks alive!

#

familiar smiley face

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 5:39 AM

#

ooooo we could be onto a winner

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 5:40 AM

#

WARNING Can't connect to ESPHome API for esp32-s3-box-3 @ 192.168.1.159: Error connecting to [AddrInfo(family=<AddressFamily.AF_INET: 2>, type=<SocketKind.SOCK_STREAM: 1>, proto=6, sockaddr=IPv4Sockaddr(address='192.168.1.159', port=6053))]: [Errno 113] Connect call failed ('192.168.1.159', 6053) (SocketAPIError)

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 5:40 AM

#

or maybe not loll

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 5:40 AM

#

box is alive, seems connected...this may just be the wake word stuff

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 5:40 AM

#

it should work with the defualt on device ww

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 5:40 AM

#

I don't think I need wyoming, openwakeword with it....

#

right

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 5:42 AM

#

nope you can use ok nabu, alexa, hey jarvis, or hey mycroft direct from the box there is a variable at the top of the config to change to the one you want

#

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 5:42 AM

#

looks like I can't hit the direct URL anymore...which may make sense if turned off in the config that finally got flashed

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 5:43 AM

#

and you have to enter them as hey_mycroft, hey_jarvis , alexa, okay_nabu

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 5:43 AM

#

okay, I figured that but trying anything now

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 5:43 AM

#

yes, there is no webserver by default as it uses too many resources

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 5:44 AM

#

yeah - opening logs, I can see things look ok

#

ahh ahh - I think I have an idea

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 5:44 AM

#

cool , you should see the logs change when you say the ww

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 5:45 AM

#

so the m5stack silently choke if on a different vlan. I see now my default vlan is for my IoT devices...let me move this to my main network and see if that helps

#

since I can connect to see the logs, that seems like it's connected...but wake word isn't working. I'm assuming it's a socket connection, but unsure which way it's initiated

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 5:46 AM

#

the wake word should work regardless. as it is on the device and everything is done 'on board' i found ok nabu to be the least responsive

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 5:46 AM

#

at the very least, it would be confusing something since the fixed IP I define in the settings won't match DHCP assigning for the different vlan

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 5:47 AM

#

make sure that the clear plastic is removed off the screen if it is still on , as this can block the mic ports

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 5:48 AM

#

yup. I had it living on my desk with clear view before it got unhappy with me

#

may need to unplug / replug to reset network lease

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 5:48 AM

#

lol ... that should be all good then

#

the use_address option doesn't actually define the address as a static address, it just tells HA to use that ip address whne connecting. you can configure a static address on the device if that helps and give the device a static leases in your router so it always uses the same ip

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 5:50 AM

#

gotcha, ok. That makes sense

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 5:50 AM

#

#

thats the format

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 5:51 AM

#

okay - logs showing it hearing wake word, but just kinda stopped there. I think I've turned off the assistant that connects to it, so I'll have to check that

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 5:53 AM

#

you need to have text to speech and speech to text configured in Voice Assistants >> Assist

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 5:53 AM

#

yup, setting that up now

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 5:54 AM

#

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 5:55 AM

#

I'm not seeing Piper or Whisper after starting them back up. I'm going to restart home assistant now...I feel like some stuff hasn't gotten to the proper state

#

I see Home Assistant Cloud but not Whisper or Piper even though they're installed and running

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 5:57 AM

#

yup they will hopefully populate after a restart, you may need to do a full system restart rather than just an HA restart if they don't show

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 5:57 AM

#

yeah, I did a HA restart and still nada

#

okay - good news. It's now listening and talking to me. Looks like it pulled from Phi3 on my beefy machine. So that all seems good

#

the other stuff is minor...I can sort all that out

#

it seems like:

Uninstall / Reinstall ESPHome probably was the big one
That full raw config
Setting the network correctly

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 5:59 AM

#

one thing to check is that you have a 'wyoming' integration in devices and services, this is usually added when you install the add-ons

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 6:00 AM

#

ahh! Yes, I had disabled them. That's it

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 6:00 AM

#

yeah , it looks like a combination of network not resolving mDNS addresses eg. devicename.local and the add-on causing issues.

young wadi Sep 14, 2024, 6:01 AM

#

will have to move from phi3 -> llama3.1 for tooling support, but all this is the easy / fun stuff

#

thank you again for all the help! What a weird problem.

shadow scaffold Sep 14, 2024, 6:02 AM

#

you're welcome and thank you for the dono. any more issues you can drop back in this thread or if it's not related post in main 👍

#S3 BOX Installation

Enable logging

Enable Home Assistant API

Allow Over-The-Air updates

Allow provisioning Wi-Fi via serial

Set up a wifi access point

In combination with the ap this allows the user

to provision wifi credentials to the device via WiFi AP.

Enable logging

Enable Home Assistant API

Allow Over-The-Air updates

Allow provisioning Wi-Fi via serial

Set up a wifi access point

In combination with the ap this allows the user

to provision wifi credentials to the device via WiFi AP.

Sets up Bluetooth LE (Only on ESP32) to allow the user

to provision wifi credentials to the device.

To have a "next url" for improv serial

In combination with the `ap` this allows the user

In combination with the `ap` this allows the user