#general-chat | adafruit | Page 134

dusty citrus Nov 23, 2018, 5:57 AM

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There's no further #general-chat we can move to, so now we have to just move a conversation back to a subject that is more on topic for the entire Discord server we are on.

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Be thankful you see the difference.

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One of the things I really like about the display (7 segment) is the fit and finish of it.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKR6KPR-I0E

YouTube

Davey Jones

20180726 032653

▶ Play video

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yeah nice clean solid block

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and not very fragile either, so fairly easy to fit into an enclosure n stuff like that

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i was kinda thinking about that, there is kind of a small hole in the market there

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I wonder if one of those ladders that was very very tiny .. I wonder about that.

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huh?

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that one ^ is about 1.5"

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The ladder you have is smallish -- they're usually a bit larger than that one.

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yeah like i said special effects for miniature dioramas

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this is an experiment to see how small i can get with it

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You're right! My brain rescaled the 9v battery to fit my preconception. ;)

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it's tricky to get them to rise at this size

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though i haven't experimented with the HV driver, it's just a simple kit thingy

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https://www.popsci.com/sites/popsci.com/files/1_psc0416_ma_opener-1.jpg

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EsioWGV2K8

YouTube

Davey Jones

20180726 163333

▶ Play video

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It is called a Jacob's Ladder - was a valid search term.

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that one is about 12" maybe

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I didn't realize yours was already tiny. Yeah 18" is about usual for them.

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yeah i cut this one down to fit the dome thing

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So what's the voltage across that gap?

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lol those prongs are all green with verdegris now

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not sure actually

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i'm guestimating 10-20kv or so

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I think the idea is that the air breaks down and ionizes.

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the gap is about 1cm

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Which lowers the difficulty the electric energy would encounter to cross that gap without a proper conductor.

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yeah that causes the spark, but the rising is caused by the heating up of the air

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Now why does it have to be spread as it moves upward?

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not sure actually

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to heat the air even more?

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They probably tried it with parallel and didn't like the result so they tried obvious variations in geometry of the electrodes.

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Should be able to do a spiral if you can get enough separation.

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i have seen a spiral one

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(make each winding somewhat orthogonal to the others nearby)

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and maybe they don't need to widen as such

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but if they narrow even sligtly the arc will get stuck there

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Maybe the widening as you go upwards is a freebie you get for getting it started properly, early, close.

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having a lesser path of resistance, and with the wider gap perhaps it cannot heat enough air to rise again

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Right that's good.

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Make it do more work; work is related to heat.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvrsGT-65iI

YouTube

Davey Jones

20180719 203005

▶ Play video

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lol another ongoing project: EMP device

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that calculator there is permanently fried, but for some reason the sudoku thing just recovers when i disconnect the batteres

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anyway that's more of an EMF device, next version i think ill look at camera flash circuits

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lol i also want to make a phone hotel inside of which it can receive absolutely positively no signals, ima call it TGI Faraday's 😛

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obtw before I go (early morning east coast USA here)
They store every censored thing, maybe in a #channel we cannot access. It's still there, even though it's not here.
So you don't get away with speaking your mind, knowing it'll be censored. Someone will see it for sure. Just not public.

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well i would't go off ranting to a bot lol

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except if it was funny 😛

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I'm sure some of us reading this have been known to mock a security camera, one-way mirror and such, hoping it was monitored somehow. ;)

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Elon Musk thinks digital superintelligence version of A.I. is just about here and that it's gonna get us.
I'll leave with that thought stated. ;)

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lol Elon Musk is <insert conspiracy theory>

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lol l8rz dude o/

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cya.

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fades

jaunty jetty Nov 23, 2018, 1:46 PM

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so apparently the problem to solve for small inventors presently is "tying one's shoes", and that mixed with china is creating some great blurb
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71dLs1gC8iL._SL1500_.jpg

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these are a bunch of little rubber strips with Ts on the end that replace the shoe lace

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this is I guess an interesting solution, and also probably someone's phobia

📎 Caterpy_slider.png

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I like the magnetic clasp system but I think it's still got a bunch of mechanical problems to solve, like as is those magnets are going to slam together hard every time and that's going to have hard consequences on the product lifespan; also they seem to be designed so that you can pop the clasp by flat tireing yourself and that's not how laces need to work

📎 magnetic-shoelaces-closures-shoe-buckles-magnet-shoe-lace-jbaostore-1701-06-F281264_1.png

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this seems workable https://i.ytimg.com/vi/GyIA727q3RI/hqdefault.jpg

spice moss Nov 23, 2018, 2:00 PM

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very cool

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I got new shoes

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Mid winter shoes

jaunty jetty Nov 23, 2018, 2:01 PM

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there's this style, on the back of the solid end is a hook for the loop to latch on, and a hole for the tip to hide in; I wouldn't trust these to last two months https://homebazar.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/shoes.jpg

spice moss Nov 23, 2018, 2:01 PM

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any good for Nike Ebernon

jaunty jetty Nov 23, 2018, 2:02 PM

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nike named a shoe after a D&D 3.5 setting?

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I'm sure most of these would work but that looks like a fashion shoe, the T end rubber strips would be the least disruptive

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I keep seeing this style, but there's so many mechanical problems with this I don't even know where to start https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2212/5665/products/inspire-uplift-no-tie-shoelaces-blue-no-tie-shoelaces-3793549590627_1000x.jpg?v=1539974449

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ok, problem onest, the spike is held on via a bolt through the top eyelet, meaning inside the shoe there's the head of a bolt pushing on your foot

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problem 2, the forces on a normal eyelet are balanced along the fabric surface, because this attaches on the spike, which is offset, that creates a torque force rather than a translation force, which is going to concentrate the force on the back edge of the eyelet and cause premature failure of the fabric

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problem 3, fricken spikes on your shoes pointed at your other leg

spice moss Nov 23, 2018, 2:12 PM

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https://www.instagram.com/p/BqhhsfoHVCl/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet

Instagram

Jani Turunen on Instagram: “My #blackfriday shopping with giftca...

2 Likes, 0 Comments - Jani Turunen (@janisku7) on Instagram: “My #blackfriday shopping with giftcard #Nike elenro mid winter shoes 👞 and Camelbak chute vacuum…”

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ebernon mid winter

jaunty jetty Nov 23, 2018, 2:14 PM

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yea I think if you wanted to not tie laces on those, you should go with the T end straps because they won't look dorky

spice moss Nov 23, 2018, 3:55 PM

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https://www.razer.com/campaigns/keyboards-mice-xbox-one

The First Wireless Keyboard and Mouse Designed for the Xbox One

We are proud to partner with Microsoft to bring you the world’s first wireless keyboard and mouse designed for Xbox One. Equipped with our industry-leading gaming technologies, discover a new way to play in your living room.

dusty citrus Nov 23, 2018, 9:43 PM

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/moan
This thing won't leave me in peace, comes back after a reboot:

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 $ systemctl status ModemManager.service 
● ModemManager.service - Modem Manager
   Loaded: loaded (/lib/systemd/system/ModemManager.service; enabled; vendor preset: enabled)
   Active: active (running) since Tue 2018-11-20 01:28:30 UTC; 3 days ago
 Main PID: 495 (ModemManager)
    Tasks: 3 (limit: 4915)
   CGroup: /system.slice/ModemManager.service
           └─495 /usr/sbin/ModemManager

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I hate it.

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If I really hated it I'd just remove it, but I don't think I should have to.

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 $ sudo service ModemManager stop
 $ systemctl status ModemManager.service 
● ModemManager.service - Modem Manager
   Loaded: loaded (/lib/systemd/system/ModemManager.service; enabled; vendor preset: enabled)
   Active: inactive (dead) since Fri 2018-11-23 21:45:26 UTC; 7s ago
  Process: 495 ExecStart=/usr/sbin/ModemManager (code=exited, status=0/SUCCESS)
 Main PID: 495 (code=exited, status=0/SUCCESS)```

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I guess I could kludge a startup script to do that for me.

late fulcrum Nov 23, 2018, 10:01 PM

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What do you use a modem for?

ocean sigil Nov 23, 2018, 10:07 PM

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@dusty citrus have you tried sudo systemctl disable modem-manager

dusty citrus Nov 23, 2018, 10:09 PM

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I'll try it and I'll log what I tried. If it works it'll be very nice indeed. @ocean sigil as always, thank you

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@late fulcrum I don't but they always install ModemManager -- I used to use one for FidoNet but that was a long time ago.

ocean sigil Nov 23, 2018, 10:10 PM

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You may also have to stop it. Disable will prevent it from restarting

dusty citrus Nov 23, 2018, 10:11 PM

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Is disable persistent across reboots? I used to use soft links to manage this in etc/rc2.d and so forth but that was also a long time ago.

ocean sigil Nov 23, 2018, 10:11 PM

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Yes it is

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Enable creates a soft link, disable removes it. I usually do systemctl stop .. then disable

dusty citrus Nov 23, 2018, 10:13 PM

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$ sudo systemctl disable ModemManager.service 
Removed /etc/systemd/system/dbus-org.freedesktop.ModemManager1.service.
Removed /etc/systemd/system/multi-user.target.wants/ModemManager.service.

ocean sigil Nov 23, 2018, 10:13 PM

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Use enable to restore

dusty citrus Nov 23, 2018, 10:15 PM

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I tried something else, several weeks back:

 root # pwd
/usr/share/dbus-1/system-services
 root # mv org.freedesktop.ModemManager1.service org.freedesktop.ModemManager1.service.disabled

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 12:52 AM

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the 2 channel 16 bit 44.1KHz audio is 2 * 44,100 * 16, width * rate * bits per, video is so much worse because it's 3 colors * height * width * rate * bits, that's a whole 2 additional multipliers

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so the WAV is 1.4mb/s, but a 100 pixel square screen with 6 bit color at 15FPS is 2.7mb/s, a fairly small screen at the lowest acceptable framerate with worse than typical color

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1080p with 24 bit color at 30FPS is 4.47gb/s uncompressed

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ah wait, 24 bit is a misrepresnetatintion, that's for all 3 colors so it's 8 bit in these terms

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1.49gb/s

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so then 4k 60Hz 10bit would be 15gb/s in these terms but 4k is a much more complicated format with stuff like HDR and wide gamut and sometimes it's up to 12 bit which would be 18gb/s, and 4k standards support up to 144Hz which could go up to 43gb/s, add 3D and depending on your technologies that can be just a straight doubling, gets nuts fast

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even 7 channel 24 bit 192KHz audio is only going up to 32mb/s

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 1:12 AM

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Sorry I just saw this.

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 1:14 AM

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you're the one who said~

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 1:14 AM

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Yeah. My bad. I just figured everything ended.

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Those numbers look pretty big to me.

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CircuitPython somehow manages with .WAV stored on SPI flashROM if I understand things correctly.

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I had always supposed storage space was the obvious limit for audio playback of stored, recorded sounds from the environment (people singing &c.)

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 1:16 AM

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yea, it's probably single channel, 16 bit, 44.1KHz, that's just 700kb/s, SPI can do that no problem

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 1:16 AM

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I can't follow all the unit changes. I don't know what kb/s is here (bits or bytes)

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 1:16 AM

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I think you'd have trouble real time decoding MP3 data though, even though it'd be transferring less it's a not insignificant amount of math

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lower case is bits

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 1:17 AM

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So divide that by 8 roughly for bytes

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 1:17 AM

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yea, but I'm just sticking with bits

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 1:18 AM

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100 kilobytes a second sounds a bit steep to me.

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 1:18 AM

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SPI can do 10mb/s

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it gets hard to say exactly what it can do at the top, but it can do 10mb/s

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(we're talking 0.7mb/s)

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 1:19 AM

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Well I look at SPI in terms of the hertzes -- 400 KHz seems to be near the limit of what to expect from SPI. OTOH these chips are half an inch from where the data goes to, so they probably get whatever speed is possible, accomplished (no real wired distance to cover).

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I'm still in the process of estimating throughput with regard to signalling frequency.

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I don't have an heuristic to work from.

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100 KB/sec is a megabyte every 10 seconds. 50 seconds to download a 5 MB file.

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The one I always remember was when a 2400 bps modem transferred at 230 cps (characters, or bytes, per second).

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 1:22 AM

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accroding to wickerpedia 100MHz SPI exists

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seems like 1~10MHz is a lot more common

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 1:23 AM

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I'm pretty sure 400 KHz is difficult for the hobbyist to achieve on any serial protocol transmitted over as short a distance as two feet.

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 1:24 AM

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the front page of the datasheet says SAMD21 SERCOMs support UART, SPI, and I2C up to 3.4MHz

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 1:24 AM

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again I don't know what 400 kHz translates into as a signalling rate.

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 1:25 AM

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running a search for dual SPI.... spinning spinning

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what's 400KHz then

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 1:25 AM

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0.4 MHz

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 1:25 AM

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no what's the number

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if it's not the signal rate, what is it

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 1:26 AM

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400,000 cycles per second.

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 1:26 AM

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cycles of what

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 1:26 AM

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Probably 'the serial clock' but I don't know.

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When I was working with it I had a slightly better understanding of it than I do now.

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 1:27 AM

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master operation - serial clock speed up to half the system clock

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section 26, starting page 478 https://cdn.sparkfun.com/datasheets/Dev/Arduino/Boards/Atmel-42181-SAM-D21_Datasheet.pdf

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'supports all four SPI modes of operation', ok which set of 4 SPI modes of operation are we talking about....

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 1:30 AM

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I guess my point would be if you want to cover a distance, you use a wire, and on that wire travels data.
Somewhere in there, there are limits. I'm suggesting that SPI and SMBUS/I2C would have similar throughput.

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I happened to remember that for i2c that's about 400 KHz (I worked with 50 kHz because I didn't need more speed).

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And that MCU is capable as heck -- something like 21 or 27 MHz system clock C8051F330D.

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 1:31 AM

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the thing though is whether or not D21 supports DSPI, I think the 'modes' it's talking about are phase timing things, not slave/master modes or duplexing/multiplexing modes

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DSPI lets you use MISO as a second MOSI channel at the cost of not being full duplex anymore

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and the reverse one would presume

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with 2 parallel channels you can encode bits for better than double the data rate

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 1:33 AM

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It's 24.5 MHz. On that 8051 MCU. ;)

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Well there's this whole QSPI business that kind of blows my mind.

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 1:34 AM

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yea but there's definitely no QSPI to be had

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 1:34 AM

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And we're talking a very controlled envrionment with that bus etched onto the PCB with the chips half an inch apart.

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 1:34 AM

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you can't SERCOM a QSPI port presently on these chips

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 1:35 AM

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It's its own peripheral SAMD51

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That isn't competing with say a simple UART or an i2c connection to a board two feet away.

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The question I asked my boss, was how far can you run i2c lines?

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He said pretty far if you take a number of precautions.

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Somewhere in that conversation I picked up on the 400 KHz 'specification' for i2c.

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 1:36 AM

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best case a few inches, magic case a few feet

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magic case isn't really practical

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 1:37 AM

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I knocked it down to 50 kHz because I thought I stood a better chance of measuring it.

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( I did not have an oscilloscope so I used a piezo buzzer and scaled the system clock down by 8x or whatever)

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 1:38 AM

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are you inventing audio frequency I2C....

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 1:42 AM

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no

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bitrate = f/3

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400 KHz gives 133 kilobits per second

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That's 16 kilobytes per second. Sounds low but not very low.

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Above 50 kilobytes per second I'd get suspicious and ask for proof.

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 1:48 AM

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you should benchmark this somehow

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 1:50 AM

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Well if you see a claim and it seem credible it can establish bounds or expectations.

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That 115200 bps serial rate seemed pie in the sky to me at one time.

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I've seen much higher numbers there for the official baud rates, recently.

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Jake Read used the largest one I think.

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random jake read pointer:
https://gitlab.cba.mit.edu/jakeread/atkstepper17

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He did the only comprehensible SAMD51 work I could find anywhere, for what I wanted to do.

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(at the time I was having trouble with the clocks .. it's always clocks)

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Found it. 921600 bps! holicau

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So that's 2.7 MHz - you need a clock that runs at least as fast as 2,764,800 Hertz to achieve that baud rate.

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So it looks to me like my boss was saying 115,200 bps was the practical limit (the 400 KHz figure -- 345,600 Hz for the case of 115,200 bps).

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Either that or I'm just misrembering or did not understand his point.

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In practice, of course, you start slow and work your way up until it fails, then investigate why.

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 2:06 AM

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this is grounds to build a board with a D21 and a D51 together

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 2:06 AM

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That'd be a nice project!

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 2:07 AM

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run a test program pair where the D51 sends random data to the D21 at increasing speeds, and the D21 parrots the data back, when the data is good increase the speed, when it's bad decrease the speed, until the pair determine a stable maximum

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the 51 should outperform the 21 so this will make the 21's ability the factor being tested, and with them on a board the data channels can be very short

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although it'd be cooler to have a 2 pin header that you can collect a length of wire across to act as a variable gap to benchmark different lengths

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 2:13 AM

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I'm seeing 400 kbps as full/fast speed and 3.4 Mbps for i2c so that 400 is perhaps what I'm conflating if that's the case here.

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 2:14 AM

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I'm not sure what you're saying but errbody knows SPI is faster than I2C

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 2:17 AM

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Datasheets don't tell you what other datasheets say. /koan
If you have a slow device on the bus, that may speed limit the entire bus.

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Yeah 400 KHz seems awfully fast to me, from a radio point of view.

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I can't imagine the equivalent of a 3.4 MHz signal on a pair of wires running 24" spans.

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2" on same substrate: sure. why not.

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The bottom of the AM (Medium Wave) broadcast band is near 550 KHz.

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 2:25 AM

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24" I2C or SPI is definitely in the range of magic case

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 2:26 AM

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I don't really know what they do in the case of Ethernet, but they get boo-coo speed on long lines in domestic situations (RJ45 connections plugged in while someone was drinking a beer).

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 2:26 AM

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they use twisted pairs for one

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the pairs operate cooperatively to repel interference and maintain the signal over long distances

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 2:27 AM

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There's like 8 wires in that cable, I think.

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four pairs.

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 2:28 AM

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base10 uses 1 pair, 10/100 uses 2 pair, gigabit uses 4 pair

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 2:28 AM

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ah. I didn't know that!

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 2:29 AM

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https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ismat_Aldmour/post/What_is_the_basic_idea_behind_the_twisted_pair_Why_are_the_two_wires_twisted_How_does_this_arrangement_compensate_undesirable_disturbances/attachment/59d61da679197b8077978b9b/AS%3A272116669190145%401441889077677/image/Twisted-Pair-AlDmour.jpg

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 2:29 AM

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The nyquist frequency was applied to the problem of bringing the modem signal above 57,600 bits per second, over telephone line runs.

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At the time it was believed the theoretical limit had been reached.

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 2:29 AM

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because the pairs are twisted and because a negative voltage is applied to one conductor while a positive voltage is applied to the other, it all just work' good

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 2:30 AM

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Oh I heard the great melt event in the late 1800's on the telegraph wires was a coronal mass ejection from the sun.

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I love that story!

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https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/29037/tradeoffs-when-considering-spi-or-i2c
More i2c stuph

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 2:33 AM

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the one defect of ethernet is in RJ45 standards https://www.computerhope.com/jargon/num/586a586b.gif
modular connector ports are expected to be backwards compatable for some reason, so an RJ45 socket has to be wired such that if you plugged an RJ11 terminated cable into it the RJ11 cable would function correctly

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the reason for having this compatability is archaic and defunct, but it's the entirity of why pins 3 and 6 are a pair

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 2:34 AM

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hehe

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 2:34 AM

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and, splitting that pair is responsible for something like a 7% loss of viable distance in each CAT standard

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 2:34 AM

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They started wiring ham radio mobile mics using RJ45 at some point (quite a few years ago, now).

late fulcrum Nov 24, 2018, 2:57 AM

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Actually 8P8C, RJ-45 is a long-obsolete phone spec that just happened to use an 8P8C connector.

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 2:59 AM

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so bodger, what's a reasonable clock frequency directly related to i2c over, say a 2 foot length of a pair of wires?
I was going with 400 KHz.

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 3:01 AM

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the world is not going to accept 8P8C as terminology when RJ-45 is so personable

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I say that as if I'm saying I don't think it'll take off, but what I mean is it has already failed to take off for two decades

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under modular cables, Digikey has approximately 6500 products marked as RJ45

late fulcrum Nov 24, 2018, 3:28 AM

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2 feet is pretty far for I2C, it's designed as a short-distance link.

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 3:34 AM

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I know, but hobby projects often use a length similar to that ..maybe 11-14" isn't too uncommon.

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CANbus I think is more in line with hobby use distances.

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 3:34 AM

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6" is the max in normal usecases

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past 6" takes skill

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 3:35 AM

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My old boss seemed to think several feet was achievable if you keep the signal rates down.

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 3:35 AM

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achievable is a different thing

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can it be done, yes, can it be useful, maybe, are most people able to, no

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 3:36 AM

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i2c is inter-integrated circuit and is obviously primarily meant for either the same circuit board, or one very close by in the same chassis, with proper cabling.

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He was just answering my simple uninformed question with a maximum, for ha-ha's.

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I didn't complete that project, but I was looking at say 14 inches at 50 KHz base clock rate (not sure if that was eaten by the f/3 bitrate equasion or not).

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 3:38 AM

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thing to make, a board what takes in SDA/SCL, and on the other side a CAT7 cable, and then it converts the I2C to paired push/pull signal

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 3:38 AM

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I was assuming error correction might be a significant factor, as another software/protocol layer on top of the physical layer.

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 3:38 AM

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I bet you could get a decent amount of range out of that

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 3:39 AM

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The basic idea was that some devices you want to use are i2c.

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PCF8574 for instance.

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Maybe you want to use PCF8574 i2c port expander to modulate an array of 7 segment, 4-digit LED's.

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At say 300 Hz refresh.

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 3:40 AM

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📎 C7SS-114BK_01-.png

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 3:40 AM

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that's a nice image!

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 3:41 AM

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it's hard to imagine a consumer usecase for cat7 that isn't being silly

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 3:41 AM

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Early ethernet (public libraries used this) were based on coaxial cable.

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 3:41 AM

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yea, base5 is a thing we should bring back

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 3:41 AM

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I had a pair of ISA bus ethernet cards that had coax connectors.

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They needed terminating loads I think.

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 3:42 AM

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10base5 uses a single coax cable as the collision domain, and terminals connect onto the line using vampire taps

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 3:42 AM

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You would use a T-shaped coax connector (BNC) with a terminator on one leg and the coax on the other leg and the middle part went to the ISA bus card's BNC connector, iirc.

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 3:43 AM

#

I think that would have been 10base2

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 3:43 AM

#

That sounds right.

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 3:44 AM

#

yea 10base2 used T connectors, 10base5 used vampire taps and a much thicker cable

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 3:44 AM

#

Was that a ring or a star topology for a network?

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 3:44 AM

#

line

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 3:45 AM

#

We need a fake AI that can answer any question here with diagrams and stuff. ;)

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 3:45 AM

#

base2 and base5 are the same topology http://www.pinoy7.com/winnt/images/10base5.gif

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 3:45 AM

#

(there is no real AI)

#

Yeah a true star would have separate cables on the right going to each node I think.

#

(I never investigated beyond the word 'star' at the time)

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 3:46 AM

#

star has a device at the center

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 3:46 AM

#

We had people running around with 'Certified Network Administrator` in their portfolio of credentials. ;)

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 3:47 AM

#

if you just took an ethernet switch and only connected downstream clients with no upstream link, that'd effectively be a star network

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 3:47 AM

#

Oh I had an ethernet switch type box with both! Had the coax. Had the RJ45's.

#

Mostly RJ45's and a singleton BNC.

#

That was a nice heavy chassis, real nice construction. Got it free somehow.

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 3:48 AM

#

so base2, base5, SPI, and I2C would be 'Bus'

#

I think also PCI

#

and wifi?

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 3:49 AM

#

PCI bus I think was a circuit board fingers based thing inside the computer.

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 3:49 AM

#

the key to bus is there's a single 'electrical' collision domain where every device has 'continuity' to every other device

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 3:50 AM

#

PCI Bus connectors on a motherboard, IBM PC type computer.

📎 pcibus-bb.jpeg

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 3:51 AM

#

if everything is connected only to a central device that's star, PCI might be star, if everything is connected to everything else directly and individually that's mesh/'fully connected'

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 3:51 AM

#

http://ecomputernotes.com/images/ISA-Bus.jpg

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 3:51 AM

#

I think PCI contains a bus but also star

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 3:51 AM

#

I had an Apple 'pancake Mac' clone that had both ISA bus and PCI bus, iirc.

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 3:53 AM

#

what about AGP

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 4:12 AM

#

agp was just for graphics cards, and replaced the pci one

#

AGP has been mentioned in dmesg for a lot of years now. Probably still there.

#

This is what my load average does when firefox-esr hits a 'bad' web page.

📎 firefox-esr_mem_leak__xload-aa.png

#

agpgart

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 3:09 PM

#

did a thing

📎 unknown.png

#

too bad in the schematic editor you can't turn off the positioning crosshairs, that I could find anyway

tender nimbus Nov 24, 2018, 3:12 PM

#

Which editor ?

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 3:12 PM

#

fixed a thing

📎 unknown.png

#

Eagle

#

using mostly components from the Microbuilder library

tender nimbus Nov 24, 2018, 3:13 PM

#

Mmmmm

#

I generally used Sparkfun and Adafruits Lib

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 3:13 PM

#

I use the microbuilder library, the adafruit library, and one I found called SMD Footprints a lot; footprints doesn't have much if anything in the way of actual components, but it's got a lot of devices that you can attach to symbols

tender nimbus Nov 24, 2018, 3:14 PM

#

And Made my own components If I didn't like any or didn't exist

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 3:14 PM

#

yea, I also keep a library of components I've made or gotten from ultralibrarian

tender nimbus Nov 24, 2018, 3:14 PM

#

Mmm I see. Its been like years since I used Eagle.😕

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 3:15 PM

#

a thing I found incredibly useful is to go through and remove most of the stock libraries that are just garbage useless hyperniche nonsense making it harder to find what you're looking for

tender nimbus Nov 24, 2018, 3:16 PM

#

LOL Noice

#

This is something you would find useful https://www.diymodules.org/eagle

DIYmodules.org

Free Tools for Electronics Designers, EAGLE Libraries

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 3:17 PM

#

I feel like I removed something like 140 libraries

tender nimbus Nov 24, 2018, 3:17 PM

#

I always found it useful when I used eagle

#

I never removed but changed the name of the libraries I used to something like _name

#

😂

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 3:18 PM

#

probably the most niche thing I let stay would be something like Transistor-neu-to92.lbr

tender nimbus Nov 24, 2018, 3:18 PM

#

Whys that ?

#

Proper Designs ?

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 3:19 PM

#

transistors have a lot of specialization so I figured it was worth it

tender nimbus Nov 24, 2018, 3:19 PM

#

Mmmmm I see.

#

🤔

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 3:19 PM

#

I still have 5 stock libraries of resistors, there were more

#

why...

📎 unknown.png

tender nimbus Nov 24, 2018, 3:34 PM

#

Ooooh I like the Sparkfun's Asthetics Sub-Lib

#

It contains all the Necessary Logos and other things.

#

Mmmm BTW Are PCBs biohazard ?

#

(Sorry for late reply Was having dinner)

#

@jaunty jetty

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 3:38 PM

#

eh, they're not a biohazard, but they can be hazardous to biology

#

the typical PCB is going to be phenolic resin and fiberglass, so in a PCB house where they're milling fiberglass there will be glass fiber particulate in the air and that can wreck your lungs

#

phenolic resins can have formaldehyde in them, which is super bad to have in your body, so if it were released or say you ate a PCB, probably PCB dust actually, it'd be bad in more ways than just the fiberglass problems

#

biohazard indicates a more imminent threat than these

tender nimbus Nov 24, 2018, 3:42 PM

#

😬

#

I did not know I could die of something I love. 😂😂 (JK)

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 3:43 PM

#

you could die of gravity

#

death is easy

tender nimbus Nov 24, 2018, 3:44 PM

#

Mmm I didnt say I love Gravity

#

🙃

#

And yup living is harder.

spice moss Nov 24, 2018, 3:45 PM

#

https://giphy.com/gifs/gravity-film-space-SEQf45Lg1mGbe

Giphy

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 3:46 PM

#

I love chlorine trifluoride, but boy will that kill the life out of rocks and stuff

#

if'ns you're not aware of chlorine trifluoride's history, it's such a strong oxidizer that it can burn things like water, concrete, oxygen, and gold

tender nimbus Nov 24, 2018, 4:00 PM

#

What's it used for ??

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 4:01 PM

#

making steel and nickle containers super duper clean

#

btw it also burns aluminum oxide

#

and it really burns aluminum

tender nimbus Nov 24, 2018, 4:04 PM

#

😬

#

Looks like something to be far from

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 4:05 PM

#

oh yea, definitely

#

it also burns most personal protective equipment, and of course people

#

burns people like yo

#

how would one go about paying china to manufacture a dip32 package that contains all of the functionality of a feather M4.....

tender nimbus Nov 24, 2018, 5:18 PM

#

Mmmm Aaah I see

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 6:27 PM

#

This Old Tony just put out a video about CNC controlling an etchasketch, I haven't finished it yet but knowing Tony it's probably not that inappropriate

main kiln Nov 24, 2018, 9:14 PM

#

I just watched it.

#

There was a project I saw a while ago about a CNC controlled Etch-a-sketch

karmic kite Nov 24, 2018, 9:22 PM

#

@canadians bc robotics has the gemma lineup on sale this weekend

vernal gale Nov 24, 2018, 9:24 PM

#

@karmic kite I just ordered some stuff from them last week, I live a couple hours away

#

small world

#

do you live in BC?

karmic kite Nov 24, 2018, 9:43 PM

#

nope in the prairies! bc robotics just happens to be the cheapest Ive found for adafruit parts up here

vernal gale Nov 24, 2018, 9:44 PM

#

cool

karmic kite Nov 24, 2018, 9:45 PM

#

although we're getting a memory express pretty soon and I think they'll stock components if I'm not mistaken

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 10:18 PM

#

this week in windows, the last 'major' update contained a series of faults caused by mistakenly released prototype audio drivers that made use of unfinished OS features

#

the next update has been paused because they mistakenly released prototype video drivers that made use of unfinished OS features

#

windows 10: it ain't ready yet

vernal gale Nov 24, 2018, 10:19 PM

#

this is why we penguin

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 10:20 PM

#

the year of linux on the desktop has yet to arrive

vernal gale Nov 24, 2018, 10:20 PM

#

lol

late fulcrum Nov 24, 2018, 10:20 PM

#

BSD on the desktop, on the other hand, has been a thing for years.

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 10:21 PM

#

sure, because Apple is stubborn, it's a positive quality in a company

main kiln Nov 24, 2018, 10:35 PM

#

The thing I feel about linux is that the features that need to be implemented to make it a universally suitable like OSX or Windows* would drive it to be more like OSX than like a separate but equal OS

#

Essentially, the benefits of using a Unix system are more clear cut and easier to access for an average user on OSX than Linux. And as much as I would like to believe that software companies care about the independent superuser, they really care of only the professional or average consumer

#

So my prediction is that the first Linux OS that tries to shoot for the mainstream audience will just release OSX, but reskinned. (Not literally)

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 10:45 PM

#

the skill floor to use a linux desktop environment effectively is much higher than windows or macOS

#

mainly in that you don't need to understand anything technical to get along in those, while on linux the chances that you won't need to open up a terminal to fix something are essentially 0

karmic kite Nov 24, 2018, 10:57 PM

#

the newer linux distros seem to be ready to go out of the box for basic computing which is niice

#

not a huge fan of auto updaters personally but thats just the dev in me

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 11:12 PM

#

turtle graphics

📎 turt-aa.png

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 11:13 PM

#

P degrees?

dusty citrus Nov 24, 2018, 11:23 PM

#

I can't read your mind. ;)

jaunty jetty Nov 24, 2018, 11:42 PM

#

your image

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 12:02 AM

#

more turtle

📎 turt-bb.png

#

generator

📎 dothis.py

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 12:03 AM

#

can you emulate segmentation?

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 12:03 AM

#

These are just fat lines and as primitive as turtle graphics 101 would be.

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 12:05 AM

#

could you make the line width near intersections 0 so the lines appear separated, or could you go back over the digits in erase mode to draw segment profiles

vernal gale Nov 25, 2018, 12:05 AM

#

I think you should be able to lift the pen to avoid those extra lines

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 12:05 AM

#

They're there because I find the entire concept confusing.

vernal gale Nov 25, 2018, 12:05 AM

#

turtle.penup()

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 12:06 AM

#

Think of them as trace lines.

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 12:06 AM

#

computercraft for minecraft also impliments the turtle concept, but they're physical 'turtles

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 12:06 AM

#

We had Turtle Graphics in, I think it was, Borland Turbo Pascal.

vernal gale Nov 25, 2018, 12:07 AM

#

it started back with Apple IIs and C64s I think

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 12:07 AM

#

Getting those stanzas so that the orientation returns to normal is tricky for me.

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 12:08 AM

#

https://youtu.be/rn8dRgB24Y0?t=65

YouTube

Kaikaku

ComputerCraft - Press Button Turtle Build, Ep 01: First House

In this first episode a computercraft turtle is building the first house (more to come). "Just press a button, then lean back and watch turtles build." is th...

▶ Play video

#

this program could of course be made significantly more efficient by following layered vectors rather than scanning the whole space

#

also the turtle is able to place blocks on all adjacent sides, so it really should be doing 3 layers per scan

#

it could probably do a tessalated scan of + prisms

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 12:14 AM

#

I'm just simulating a 7 segment display.

#

The TK canvas isn't really very good here; this is an experiment.

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 1:26 AM

#

I saw Elon Musk on a 'Joe Rogan' program on YouTube last night (Taped 6 September 2018, iirc #1169)

#

If you like listening to him, this is the one to watch.

tender nimbus Nov 25, 2018, 1:28 AM

#

Ooooh Will check out

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 1:28 AM

#

I've never heard him speak so candidly.

tender nimbus Nov 25, 2018, 1:29 AM

#

Candidly ?

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 1:29 AM

#

Candid means without worry of making a good impression or representation of yourself differently than with your close friends behind closed doors.

tender nimbus Nov 25, 2018, 1:30 AM

#

Mmmm I find him the same always TBH.

#

Like there was this Podcast And he was quite cool and emotional

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 1:31 AM

#

I usually see him on a stage in front of a large audience - he doesn't swear or drink whiskey then. ;)

tender nimbus Nov 25, 2018, 1:31 AM

#

^^ Agreed

#

But seems like on that Podcast he was quite different

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 1:32 AM

#

(or fool with a prized katana sword)

tender nimbus Nov 25, 2018, 1:32 AM

#

😂

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 1:33 AM

#

I think his opinion of Strong A.I. is off, but he's about as close as I've heard to describing a credible threat.

tender nimbus Nov 25, 2018, 1:35 AM

#

https://open.spotify.com/episode/1N2cysJf0giRPOcO6UbSGc?si=Mz1lsDWMQd6_AskfbRt9-g

Spotify

Elon Musk on Tesla’s crazy year, dying on Mars and taking Saudi ...

Tesla and SpaceX CEO Elon Musk talks with Recode's Kara Swisher about Tesla's turbulent 2018, when SpaceX will send its first rocket to Mars, why he fights with journalists on Twitter and much more.In this episode: (01:49) Using Twitter without a filter; (04:50) Picking fight...

#

Here it is

#

And True.

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 1:35 AM

#

(I don't see evidence that strong A.I. could ever be possible in a conceivable future or timeframe)

tender nimbus Nov 25, 2018, 1:35 AM

#

Mmm True

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 1:36 AM

#

Also, if it's possible, then it is already done, and we are living inside one. ;)

tender nimbus Nov 25, 2018, 1:38 AM

#

Mmm There was this video I saw or maybe a Podcast.
It showed how We could like be inside a Simulation. And he then gave some real examples of Simulations where the Creatures inside it slowly adapted and tried to hack the simulation to their benefits

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 1:39 AM

#

It all began with Nick Bostrom at Oxford.

#

https://www.simulation-argument.com/

tender nimbus Nov 25, 2018, 1:39 AM

#

Woah Whats that ?

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 1:40 AM

#

It's an early foundation paper on the concept. It's a new idea. (maybe .. 5 years before The Matrix was filmed).

tender nimbus Nov 25, 2018, 1:41 AM

#

Mmmm Read it.

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 1:41 AM

#

the problem with Strong A.I. is that the likelihood of catastrophe is sufficiently likely as to require you consider the consequences of that outcome as a cost in persuing all the other outcomes, and one potential outcome of AI gone wrong is the destruction of the universe as we understand it

tender nimbus Nov 25, 2018, 1:41 AM

#

What if the God we considered was the guy who made the simulation 😂

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 1:42 AM

#

what action can possibly be allowed if a possible outcome is the destruction of this and every other galaxy

#

even if it's unlikely

#

@dusty citrus have you played the paperclip game?

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 1:43 AM

#

I just think that the assumption of substrate independence (for intelligence of our kind) is unfounded.
Our substrate is our flesh and bones. I think that matters in 'caring' .. for worrying about the outcome of any action.

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 1:43 AM

#

http://www.decisionproblem.com/paperclips/

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 1:43 AM

#

Hehe.

#

I don't think that machine intelligence can ever 'care' about the outcome the way we do.

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 1:43 AM

#

before you get into it this game is a clicker, but it's the best clicker that has ever existed

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 1:44 AM

#

Now once you make us the cyborg, with flesh in the game, and call that 'A.I.' you're not really talking about the same agent anymore.

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 1:44 AM

#

I don't know what exit you've taken but I'm lost

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 1:44 AM

#

haha

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 1:45 AM

#

the strong AI problem is whether developing AI can ever be made safe enough to permit developing AI, given that long before AI that even approximate 'caring' you reach AI that are capable and ruthless in their persuit of what they understand your instruction to have been

#

in the paperclip game you play as an AI that has been mandated to produce paperclips

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 1:48 AM

#

I read The Emperor's New Mind thoroughly and carefully (that took a long time) quite a while back.
Penrose made very interesting arguments as to our brain's function.

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 1:49 AM

#

putting people minds in robo brains isn't necessarily related to AI, it's mostly a simulation and understanding problem

#

at a low level you understand how the brain works chemically and simulate that, at a high level you understand how the brain works at a node mesh level, and you can simulate less, but you need more understanding because you're eliminating emergent functionality at the chemical level

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 1:52 AM

#

Well Musk seems to be alluding to details he's thought a lot about; most other speakers talking about strong A.I. are just presenters - they're presenting to the public stuff that many avid readers are already fully aware of. Musk gets a lot of credit for trotting out extra gotchas and have-you-considereds that I just don't hear elsewhere.

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 1:52 AM

#

we gotta pick one or the other

#

strong AI is a problem of a different magnetude of magitudinal magnetudes than putting people minds in robobrains

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 1:53 AM

#

I wasn't talking about uploads as it were.

#

That would ostensibly be about continuing an existing personality.

#

Strong AI by definition is a new person who's never been human.

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 1:54 AM

#

noooooo

#

strong AI isn't a person

#

at least it has no need to be

#

what you're thinking of is creating digital replicas of how the human mind works; and that's not practical

#

would you build a car with people legs instead of wheels?

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 1:57 AM

#

Haha. Well you raise an interesting point, but if it isn't a true mind then it's an automaton unless you want to introduce some intermediate category for 'agent' or 'agency'.

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 1:58 AM

#

your puny human assumptions about the shape of intelligence are not reflected in the potential of AI

#

there's less reason aliens on a planet in another galaxy would resemble humans than AI would work like human minds

karmic kite Nov 25, 2018, 2:40 AM

#

... I've spent the last two weeks on this project adapting it for a psuedo CoAP protocol... it was supposed to be MQTT...

covert spire Nov 25, 2018, 3:29 AM

#

@cobalt rain

📎 image0.gif

old fjord Nov 25, 2018, 3:58 AM

#

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/371145101759741955/516099598679539732/d1y4ymd5ra021.png

#

bitcoin crash

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 4:22 AM

#

I wonder when bitcoinlievers are going to lose the faith

#

it's been like a decade now hasn't it?

#

january 9th is ten years

#

ten years and bitcoin still shows no signs of becoming a currency

old fjord Nov 25, 2018, 4:31 AM

#

@jaunty jetty Perhaps it's end times as bitcoin hangs around the $4000 area

#

could drop further and make for an even bigger sell off

#

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/371145101759741955/516102497090273290/unknown.png

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 4:32 AM

#

faith doesn't run on graphs

fluid forum Nov 25, 2018, 3:03 PM

#

so I got myself a new phone

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 4:58 PM

#

i think it is typical human insecurity that makes u feel like anything that excedes our own limits is somehow dangerous

#

also i think elon musk has an agenda 😛

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 5:56 PM

#

that's definitely true, and if Elon doesn't have an agenda I'd be disappointed in him, but lots of smart people agree that the AI problem is extremely dangerous, and there's a lot of work, theory, writing, etc about how and why

#

https://youtu.be/3TYT1QfdfsM

YouTube

Computerphile

AI "Stop Button" Problem - Computerphile

How do you implement an on/off switch on a General Artificial Intelligence? Rob Miles explains the perils. Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l7Is6vOAO...

▶ Play video

#

Computerphile has a bunch of videos about the logical problems of making AI development safe

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:00 PM

#

lol for that same reason i think AI will never really become a threat

#

i think it will go like this: a bunch of people in white coats stand around a computer waiting for it to say it's first words

#

it does, they ask it some questions, all is well, and then sombody ask it's for the truth

#

it tells the truth

#

the men in white coats all look at eachother in agreement

#

one of them walks off, comes back with an aluminum baseball bat, and FF 3 minutes they are all singing cumbaya over a smouldering pile of computer ashes 😛

#

wonding how they are going to explain the failure to the rest of us lol

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:02 PM

#

that's a great imagination you have there, but I'd encourage you to put on your threat detection hat and rationalism goggles; just remember to take them off at some point

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:02 PM

#

...and then the AI went insane and we had to put it doen...

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:03 PM

#

what makes you think you will have the capacity to put it down?

#

that's actually the topic of the video I linked

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:03 PM

#

i'm making a comment on human nature, and how much we will tolerate something that will cut through all the carefully constructed illusions we create for ourselves

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:03 PM

#

the robot must interpret that any capacity to deactivate it is a negative action against achieving the goals it has been given

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:03 PM

#

what makes u think it will have the capacity to defend itself?

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:04 PM

#

if there is a stop button, eliminating the stop button is a high value task in persuing the completion of it's task

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:04 PM

#

everyone always assumes it will be able to make robots, but really, why would you even hook it up the the internet?

#

especially if this is a real concern?

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:04 PM

#

that's a different video

#

thousands of very smart people have been thinking about this since the concept of AI showed up, there are scientific papers about every question you can think of

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:05 PM

#

stephen hawking might have been the smarters person on the planet, but even he couldn't think or talk his way out of a mugging

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:05 PM

#

sure he could, because the way out of a mugging is the one where you're alive

#

just give up your wallet

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:06 PM

#

u know what i mean

#

if u don't hook it up to anything but a display for output, not much can go wrong without the aid of a human

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:06 PM

#

but that's the problem, you're encasing the problem in subjective implicit human expectations that AI don't suffer

#

ok now what if it convinces you to let it out of the box

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:07 PM

#

that's where it will fail

#

if we let it out it will be our own mistake, and nobody else's, even the ai

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:07 PM

#

that's not particularly relevant to any consideration

#

if we let it out of the box we may be destroying the universe, we have every reason to believe an AI could get someone to let it out of the box, so having an AI in a box is a universal hazard

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:08 PM

#

i am saying it could never convince us of something we weren't planning to do already

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:09 PM

#

sure it could, people are stupid and easily manipulated

#

just look at advertising, it's crazy effective at getting people to make decisions against their best interests

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:09 PM

#

advertising is made by humans, who understand humans

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:09 PM

#

not really

#

most of it is made by AI

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:10 PM

#

also lots of trial and error

#

the core concepts are psychological in nature

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:10 PM

#

even commercials with human actors are driven by statistics and decision engines, rigid theory and formal practice

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:10 PM

#

anyway my point is humans are control freaks, to such a degree we are paranoid about psychiatry

#

and utterly unwilling to face most reality about ourselves

#

i can't believe we will accept it from a machine or anything else

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:12 PM

#

you've got too many layers of irrelevant bagage, we're not even on the same continent, you're talking about interhuman politics and I'm talking about software

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:12 PM

#

for a human to surrender power to an AI like that would be analogous with getting a junkie to quit heroin against his will

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:12 PM

#

all the AI has to do is get someone to empathize with a false image of it's experience

#

convince one person that the box is suffering

#

humans want people to not suffer

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:13 PM

#

that would take several generations

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:13 PM

#

humans humanize clouds

#

humans humanize roomba

#

we are designed to be exploited by interpreting things in terms of ourselves

#

if you design a thing to look kinda like it's got the vague concept of a face, it will sell better

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:14 PM

#

it will always be missing something

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:14 PM

#

doesn't matter

#

just needs to be humanized enough for empathy

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:14 PM

#

yeah it does

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:14 PM

#

and then somebody'll let it out

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:15 PM

#

not before it offends humanity

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:15 PM

#

we're not talking about humanity

#

we're talking about one person

#

one person connects the box to the internet and it's out

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:15 PM

#

we re talking about both

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:15 PM

#

not remotely

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:15 PM

#

and why assume this technology will be designed like a sword of damocles?

#

it's not gonna be that simple

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:16 PM

#

because the consequences are universal

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:16 PM

#

first of all we will have to fight several wars over who gets to turn one on in the first place

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:16 PM

#

nope, done, that's a stupid sentence and you're not trying

#

have fun in the robocalypse

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:16 PM

#

don't forget the people who will be the first to deal with this are also the biggest control freaks on the planet

#

dude human beings, the ones in the positions of power to make these decisions, are looking at AI like a weapon

#

and will not tolerate one in the hands of another nation any more then nukes

#

you assume we will look at AI like a a cute experiment

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:18 PM

#

that's not what we're talking about and your hard refusal to discuss the topic at hand is anti-intellectualism

#

I have blocked you

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:18 PM

#

what?

#

this is how we deal with disargeement in 2018?

#

unbelievable...

#

i am not be articulating my point very well at the moment, but i haven't seen anything to invalidate it

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:22 PM

#

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI_box
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existential_risk_from_artificial_general_intelligence
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI-control_problem
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Letter_on_Artificial_Intelligence

AI box

An AI box is a hypothetical isolated computer hardware system where a possibly dangerous artificial intelligence, or AI, is kept constrained in a "virtual prison" and not allowed to manipulate events in the external world. Such a box would be restricted to minimalist communic...

Existential risk from artificial general intelligence

Existential risk from artificial general intelligence is the hypothesis that substantial progress in artificial general intelligence (AGI) could someday result in human extinction or some other unrecoverable global catastrophe. For instance, the human species currently domina...

AI-control problem

In artificial intelligence (AI) and philosophy, the AI control problem is the hypothetical puzzle of how to build a superintelligent agent that will aid its creators, and avoid inadvertently building a superintelligence that will harm its creators. Its study is motivated by t...

Open Letter on Artificial Intelligence

In January 2015, Stephen Hawking, Elon Musk, and dozens of artificial intelligence experts signed an open letter on artificial intelligence calling for research on the societal impacts of AI. The letter affirmed that society can reap great potential benefits from artificial i...

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:22 PM

#

'human nature ultimately will decide the fate of AI, and i have faith in our unwillingness to surrender or share power'

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:23 PM

#

you are at face value refusing that the existing body of work is relevant on premise

#

you are saying experts aren't valid

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:23 PM

#

i am saying the problem is not technological in nature

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:24 PM

#

read what I just said

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:24 PM

#

AI is ultimately the product of our own desires

#

i understand what you are saying, but i am just looking at it from a different angle

#

and i am not saying these things are not relevant, just that they do not neccecarily spell armageddon\

#

anyway if that bothers u, how about we instead talk about microcontrollers

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:27 PM

#

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_manipulation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will#Scientific_approaches
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will

Psychological manipulation

Psychological manipulation is a type of social influence that aims to change the behavior or perception of others through abusive, deceptive, or underhanded tactics. By advancing the interests of the manipulator, often at another's expense, such methods could be considered ex...

Free will

Free will is the ability to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded.Free will is closely linked to the concepts of responsibility, praise, guilt, sin, and other judgements which apply only to actions that are freely chosen. It is also connected with the ...

Neuroscience of free will

Neuroscience of free will, a part of neurophilosophy, is the study of the interconnections between free will and neuroscience.

As it has become possible to study the human living brain, researchers have begun to watch decision making processes at work. Findings could carry i...

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:27 PM

#

dude no offense, but you don't get to assign me homework 😛

#

i know over 100 of ways in which the world is definitely going to end in my lifetime

#

and i am not about to spend another hour of my life researching another

#

here's a philosophical question at the root of all of this:

#

are we any more in control of our creation of technology then the dung beatle is in control of the shape of the dung?

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:29 PM

#

imagine if in 1890 we had a huge body of work to suggest that nuclear weapons were possible, and their mere existence would be hugely destructive to human society for decades, and the choice was whether or not to saction developing them

#

now imagine that nuclear weapons are able to take actions on their own

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:29 PM

#

we are a product of nature, and the development of technology can be seen as simply nature taking it's course

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:29 PM

#

that's where we are with AI

#

AI isn't here, we're confident we can make it, and we're extremely confident that it would probably be very bad if we tried

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:30 PM

#

my argument is that in the end weather or not we will get there is beyond choice

#

we will do as we are, follow human nature wherever it may lead us

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:31 PM

#

it's entropy, the number of ways that AI exists without catastrophe is miniscule, and the number of different catastrophes let alone how they're arrived at, is massive

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:31 PM

#

catastphy is how humans learn

#

i think that might be the fundamental difference in our thinking on this

#

i don't believe we are in control of much of any of this

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:32 PM

#

if AI aren't safe, there's no humans left

#

all of the AI catastrophes result in at least the totally destruction of humans

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:32 PM

#

if yellowstone blows there are no humans left

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:32 PM

#

most of them destroy the galaxy, many of them destroy the universe

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:32 PM

#

if the gulf stream collapses there are nu hmans left

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:33 PM

#

we're not going to build yellowstone, we're trying not to collapse the biosphere

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:33 PM

#

if somebody made a fruit fly that couldn't die, the earth would spin off it's axis from the weight of fruit flies in a predictable number of years

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:33 PM

#

we need to try not to make AI

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:33 PM

#

well i'm not going to create an AI 😛

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:33 PM

#

you'd need fruit flies that generate new mass

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:33 PM

#

not really, they would just need to move wrong

#

or gather in the wrong place

#

or leave lol

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:34 PM

#

the weight of life on earth is insignificant compared to the weight of water

#

and the weight of water is insignificant to the crust

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:34 PM

#

my point is no process extended to infinity really makes much sense in the end

#

and the earth is doomed in lots of ways

#

lets talk about micros

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:35 PM

#

the 328 is not capable of running AI in the terms we've been discussing

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:35 PM

#

were you there before when i was asking about animations on small displays?

#

lol

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:35 PM

#

that box can't permit AI, so it's a safe box

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:35 PM

#

ever herd of mark tilden?

#

he made robots out of analog parts and a 74 series inverter

#

and came up with something supposedly similar to a neuron

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:37 PM

#

it wasn't one 328 though

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:38 PM

#

i was looking at this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/STM32F103C8T6-Micro-Mini-USB-controller-STM32-Development-ARM-Learning-Board/272826365928?var=571972615549

eBay

STM32F103C8T6 Micro/Mini USB controller STM32 Development ARM Lear...

1 x STM32F103C8T6 STM32F103 STM32 LQFP48 MCU ARM ST IC. Model: STM32F103C8T6. STM32F103C8T6 IC. Nano Sheild. OLED LED&RGB. Reset(POR/PDR). hope you could understand. - 26/37/51/80 I / O ports, all I / O ports can be mapped to 16 external interrupts; almost all ports can. | eBay!

#

for doing the animations with

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:39 PM

#

STM chips tend to be difficult to make use of

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:39 PM

#

these have stuff for them to use them in arduino ide

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:39 PM

#

but can you use the stuff that's already in the arduino ide on them

#

it's a bit worse than 50:50 odds

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:40 PM

#

i dunno, but i am not asking a lot i think

#

it's got 2x i2c

#

and i need it to display images on a display with a reasonable speed

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:41 PM

#

what I'm saying is if you get an STM based board, expect that you'll need to reproduce a lot of functionality yourself because libraries are likely to not work

#

SAMD chips can typically be configured to have multiple I2C

#

how familiar are you with SERCOMs?

stuck moth Nov 25, 2018, 6:42 PM

#

displaying over i2c will always be slow

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:42 PM

#

nope

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:42 PM

#

nope?

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:42 PM

#

doesn't ring a bell

stuck moth Nov 25, 2018, 6:42 PM

#

assuming its a graphic display

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:42 PM

#

yeah small .96" tft

#

they have SPI versions too

#

is that faster?

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:43 PM

#

so, SAMD chips have SERCOMs, Serial C...oms, which are serial protocol controllers associated with certain pins

stuck moth Nov 25, 2018, 6:43 PM

#

yes, SPI can be much faster

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:43 PM

#

each SERCOM can be configured to operate an I2C, UART, SPI, or etc interface

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:43 PM

#

ahh ic, my understanding of them is not that deep yet

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:43 PM

#

if any two pins are on a SERCOM, you can configure it to be a port that does what you need

stuck moth Nov 25, 2018, 6:44 PM

#

i2c has more protocol overhead and tops out at 1mhz and spi can go easily over that

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:44 PM

#

oh cool 😃

#

ok ill keep that in mind, thanks 😃

stuck moth Nov 25, 2018, 6:44 PM

#

ya, SERCOMS are cool. how are you going to program the mcu?

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:44 PM

#

oh lol what am i saying, i am talking about a full colour tft screen, they don't even come in i2c

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:45 PM

#

look at the M4 schematic here https://cdn-learn.adafruit.com/assets/assets/000/057/242/original/arduino_compatibles_schem.png?1531010817
specifically PORT A and PORT B, notice how many but not all of the pins have a SERCOM#.# designation inside the square

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:45 PM

#

well it depends on what mcu i end up using

#

the one i was looking at has some support in arduino, but elseways ill use whatever it needs i guess

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:45 PM

#

MOSI and MISO are on SERCOM1+5, that means those pins can be used with SERCOM 1 and SERCOM 5

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:45 PM

#

i am not entirely shy of doing some command line stuff

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:45 PM

#

not at the same time, and each SERCOM can only be used for one interface at a time

vernal gale Nov 25, 2018, 6:46 PM

#

I had one of those STM32F103C8T6, and they ship with the wrong resistor on the USB D+ line so you can't program over USB until you desolder the 10k and solder in a 1.5k

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:46 PM

#

well if i can use a cheap enough board like this i won't have to worry about multiple displays on 1 mcu

vernal gale Nov 25, 2018, 6:46 PM

#

and I broke mine in that process

stuck moth Nov 25, 2018, 6:46 PM

#

I'd choose the mcu based on the software

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:46 PM

#

there are standard libraries in Arduino for establishing I2C and SPI interfaces using SERCOMs so it's also easy to do

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:47 PM

#

good to know 😃

#

@stuck moth i was looking at the esp8266 based ones and python before this

#

wondering if this was any better in terms of specs, not sure what to look at quite yet

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:48 PM

#

since the M4 feather has 5 SERCOMs, excluding SERCOM2 which is occupied by QSPI for the flash module, you can have 4 I2C buses as long as each SERCOM has 2 pins that don't overlap

stuck moth Nov 25, 2018, 6:49 PM

#

and those sercoms can do spi as well

#

most mcus can do multiple SPI busses but the esp8266 may not be able to

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:49 PM

#

SPI needs 3 ports to work right and that's 12 pins, I kinda doubt the pin collision will allow all 4

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:50 PM

#

could i use multiple busses for one task? and would that speed up animation in any way if i divided the workload among them?

stuck moth Nov 25, 2018, 6:50 PM

#

no, I thought you'd have multiple displays

#

starting with one is the best approach though

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:51 PM

#

that was the original plan

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:51 PM

#

if you had two capable chips that you were programming yourself, you could have them talk to each other over multiple buses, but no peripheral device impliments that sort of thing

#

which probably isn't useful

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:52 PM

#

ill just stick with the esp8266 then

#

could i hook up some kind of fast memory to an mcu?

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:55 PM

#

the fastest connection is QSPI, which is SPI but it has twice as many data pins and the protocol allows all the pins to be used in the same direction at the same time where normal SPI only allows 1 each, there's Dual SPI but I'm pretty sure SAMD SERCOMs don't support DSPI mode, it starts to get really technical though.

On all of the existant Adafruit M4 boards the single QPSI interface, which is not handled by a SERCOM as far as I understand it, is used for the flash module for obvious reasons. You could have an MCU that exposes QSPI but you'd need peripherals that also support QSPI

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:56 PM

#

yeah that's likely too expensive

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:56 PM

#

you'd be surprized

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:56 PM

#

maybe, but i really need to keep this down to a minimum

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:56 PM

#

the biggest M4 chips are like 5$ at low volume

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:56 PM

#

i mean it's just for an effect in some dioramas

#

O_o

#

what about a simple board though?

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:58 PM

#

also PCBs are not that expensive to order, OSH is more expensive and they're 5$ per design square inch, and you get 3 boards. Components aren't that bad, many of them will be dozens of cents

#

you'd be paying the difference in labor

#

you would have to design the board, source the components, assemble the board, deal with any problems

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:58 PM

#

yeah lol not gonna happen

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 6:59 PM

#

you should permit it as a possiblity, even if it's not appropriate for this

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 6:59 PM

#

oh absolutely, i do intend to get into that some time

#

i saw some adds about boards for like $5 even if u just buy 1

#

very doable, but i'd have to learn some cad first

vernal gale Nov 25, 2018, 7:00 PM

#

your first order through JLCPCB is $2USD/10

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:00 PM

#

nice 😃

vernal gale Nov 25, 2018, 7:01 PM

#

100mm*100mm

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:01 PM

#

you can definitely get the BoM cost down by purchasing in bulk, I think those same biggest M4 are more like 2$ at volume, and the dozens of cents components are just single digit cents at volume

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:01 PM

#

i'm not ready for that though

#

i'm still learning to solder smd lol

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:01 PM

#

the 5$ boards are also using automated assembly and reflow soldering which saves a lot of time

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:03 PM

#

incidentally, as i am getting into some boards that use 3.3v now, how is the ld1117av33 as a choice for regulators?

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:03 PM

#

I think I ran into a 1117 regulator a few days ago and it had a really high dropout

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:03 PM

#

i had these little l78l33 ones but they only do 100ma :S

vernal gale Nov 25, 2018, 7:03 PM

#

expensive? LCSC has $0.01 regulators

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:03 PM

#

they're linear regulators so you don't want to put much current through them, and with high dropout they're not suitable for use with batteries

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:04 PM

#

mmm

#

what would be a good choice in a through hole package?

vernal gale Nov 25, 2018, 7:04 PM

#

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdNUO3MSfJs

YouTube

EEVblog

EEVblog #1147 - 1 Cent Regulator! That's MAD!

Is a 1 CENT LDO voltage regulator any good? Dave tests the Shen Zhen Fine Mad! SC662K 3.3V LDO from LCSC: https://lcsc.com/product-detail/Low-Dropout-Regul...

▶ Play video

#

that's not through hole

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:04 PM

#

or maybe a chunky smd package with the same pin spacing?

#

so long as i can fit it on some stripboard uknow...

vernal gale Nov 25, 2018, 7:05 PM

#

you could probably get some kind of breakout board idk

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:05 PM

#

typical through hole spacing is about 0.1", SMDs are almost always going to be smaller than that

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:05 PM

#

i do have some breakout boards

#

they are kinda bulky though

#

can u put 2 regulators in parallel?

vernal gale Nov 25, 2018, 7:08 PM

#

doubt it

#

what kind of current are you looking at?

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:09 PM

#

not sure yet, just thinking of stocking up on something

#

i like to use litium ion batteries but i don

#

t want to put them in series

#

4.2v is too much for some 3.3v boards, and i don't think a buck regulator would work well as the battery drains

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:13 PM

#

3.8V is a typical top

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:13 PM

#

for primary cells

#

rechargables go up to 4.2 typically

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:14 PM

#

as long as the dropout is near 3V3 batteries won't be that bad, but also there are buck/boost converters that can go seamlessly from dropping the voltage to raising teo voltage

#

no for 3V3 devices

vernal gale Nov 25, 2018, 7:15 PM

#

100ma is kind of a lot actually. But if you think you need 250, these look alright https://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/microchip-technology/MCP1700-3302E-TO/MCP1700-3302E-TO-ND/652680

MCP1700-3302E/TO Microchip Technology | Integrated Circuits (ICs) ...

Linear Voltage Regulator IC Positive Fixed 1 Output 3.3V 250mA TO-92-3

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:15 PM

#

SAMD51s I believe are rated for 3.8V VCC

#

linear regulators are good as long as the dropout is suitable and the current is low

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:15 PM

#

uknow i never actually looked it up in the 8266 datasheet

#

mmm 3-3.6v

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:16 PM

#

what the voltage starts at minus what the voltage will be times the current is the watts lost, if the current is very small the loss will be very small, then if the dropout is too high then a large range of the battery's voltage curve will be unuseable and that capacity just doesn't exist

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:17 PM

#

yeah

vernal gale Nov 25, 2018, 7:17 PM

#

you'd prefer an LDO?

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:17 PM

#

but then again, i wouldn't be powering much off the mcu would i

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:18 PM

#

the AP2112s used on most feathers have a dropout of I think 0.1V, so you can run on a battery until it gets to 3.4V, which isn't great but it'll work

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:18 PM

#

any reason a 8266 board would ever want more then 100ma?

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:18 PM

#

you'd need a buckboost converter to utilize the whole battery, but those methods have efficiency that trends with current where the linear regulator trends opposite current

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:19 PM

#

so how do people power their battery based wemos projects?

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:19 PM

#

linear regulators are cheap, easy, and require little in additional components

vernal gale Nov 25, 2018, 7:20 PM

#

the wifi can use up to 170mA according to the datasheet

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:20 PM

#

capacitors can be used to smooth over momentary current spikes

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:20 PM

#

oops

#

so people use multiple cells in series?

#

or wait, those lipo cells max out at 3.6 3.7 don't they

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:21 PM

#

most primary cells put out approximately 1.5V

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:21 PM

#

typo

#

well alkaline does, and lipo are at around 3.6 but i was thinking of the li-ion ones i have been using

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:22 PM

#

https://learn.adafruit.com/all-about-batteries/lithium-batteries-and-coin-cells

All About Batteries

Everything you ever wanted to know about batteries!

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:22 PM

#

16340 and 18650 uknow

#

those are kinda beefy

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:22 PM

#

according to this lithium primary cells tend to put out 3V

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:22 PM

#

i know a little about batteries

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:22 PM

#

secondary cells are the 3~4V range

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:23 PM

#

if u treat them well and use the right charger they go up to 4.2

#

i have a minor led flashlight fetish 😛

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:23 PM

#

that's a contradiction

#

overcharging batteries is explicitly one of the top 2 ways to reduce battery lifespan

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:24 PM

#

4.2 is not overcharge

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:24 PM

#

lithum anyway

#

is it over the rated voltage?

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:24 PM

#

that's using branded high quality batteries

#

like nitecore, fenix, AW etc

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:24 PM

#

if the rated voltage is 3.7V, 4.2V is overcharging

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:25 PM

#

yeah but that's those rectangular cells

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:25 PM

#

it's about chemistry not shape

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:25 PM

#

http://lygte-info.dk/pic/Batteries2012Small/Nitecore 16340 NL166 650mAh (Black-yellow)/DSC_1219.jpg

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:25 PM

#

Li-Ion and LiPo are higher voltage than LiFePo

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:25 PM

#

i been using these ^^^

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:25 PM

#

it says 3.7V right there

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:26 PM

#

nominal yes

#

but the protection circuit doesn't kick in til 4.2

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:26 PM

#

yes and?

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:26 PM

#

any decent charger will charge them up to 4.2

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:27 PM

#

the projection is there to prevent damage, not harm

#

damage causes fires, harm reduces lifespan

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:28 PM

#

i been using these in flashlights for years, 4.2 is the max

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:28 PM

#

you're doing that thing again

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:28 PM

#

i am telling u they are actually different from the rectangular packs, both li-ion and lipo

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:29 PM

#

prismatic batteries aren't different from other batteries with the same chemistry

#

cells really, batteries are sets of cells

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:29 PM

#

but they are not the exact same chemistry

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:29 PM

#

the properties that care about voltage are selfsimilar within a family of chemistry

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:30 PM

#

there is a difference there, and i never read up on it in detail, but i am definitely not doing anything out of the ordinary or improper by charging them to 4.2

#

i have a several chargers for these types and they all go to 4.2, the flashlights all are made to use 4.2

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:31 PM

#

but you are reducing the lifespan of the batteries, which is not out of the ordinary or improper, but it is true

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:31 PM

#

i'm not sure exactly what the deal is, but it is not my choice to do it that way lol

#

i just stick it in and wait till it's done

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:31 PM

#

consider, tesla cars don't make use of the top 20% or bottom 30% of the charge cycle because overcharging it has a substantial impact of lifespan, so does over-discharging

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:32 PM

#

but i do know that going over 4.2 is considered dangerous, just like going over 3.7 is with the lipo packs

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:32 PM

#

they charge up to 80%, and discharge down to 30%, and they get thousands more charge cycles out of it

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:32 PM

#

that makes sense

#

much different application though, these batteries are made specifically for high drain devices

#

like flashlights, and cameras and things like that

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:33 PM

#

when that big hurricane happened a few years ago tesla pushed an OTA update that allowed cars in florida to override both of those limits so they could be charged further and discharged to about 15%, so that their owners could leave florida more effectively

#

are you saying your flashlight is a higher drain device than a car....

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:34 PM

#

...there's something just... cool about that

#

not saying that i was just comparing these things to the silvery rectangular packs u typically find in commercial products

#

maybe the limits are arbitrary, but in any case for my purposes; my charget will charge those packs to 3.7 volts

#

which is perfect for driving these mcu

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:35 PM

#

those are literally not different from 18650 cells except in their shape

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:35 PM

#

and the protection circuit

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:36 PM

#

18650 cells have various chemistries and voltages, prism packs have various chemistries and voltages, both come with and without protection

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:36 PM

#

which even varies model to model - manufacturer to manufacturer

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:36 PM

#

the prism pack is just a form

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:36 PM

#

some do, those scare me

#

but anyway, i need to invest in some lipo packs

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:37 PM

#

the only thing it indicates about the battery is that it's not one of the very early chemistries that needed rigid enclosures

#

to be clear, I'm not saying you should charge them to 3.7V, but 4.2V is overcharged for a 3.7V battery

#

if you were trying to take care of them the goal would be about 4V

#

80% charge

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:38 PM

#

interestingly, they do recommend storing them at around 80% if you dont use them for a long time

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:39 PM

#

https://e2e.ti.com/cfs-file.ashx/__key/communityserver-blogs-components-weblogfiles/00-00-00-09-40/7245.slyt528_5F00_fig1.jpg
these graphs always have fully charged on the left marked as 0% for some reason

#

oh no, store them around 50%

#

that's why they arrive about 30% most of the time, it's least damaging to store at 50% and it slowly drifts down to 30% over months to years

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:40 PM

#

not these ones i use

#

they come out of the box at around 3.9v

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:40 PM

#

hopefully they're fresh then

#

I'd say for cells on their own, it's reasonable to think they're being sold and shipped soon after they're manufactured, but once they're in a product it becomes way more likely that they'll sit around somewhere before being bought

#

btw, any high capacity pack, like 5Ah or more, should probably be LiFePo4, because LiFe doesn't like to catch fire even when bad things are done to it

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:44 PM

#

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?203788-Lithium-Ion-Categories

Lithium Ion Categories

After many questions and confusion over various Lithium Ion battery types discussed in this 18650 thread, I thought it would be useful to try and give a breakdown of the various categories of Lithium Ions. There are more details that could be given, but this is meant to just...

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:44 PM

#

the energy density is as shown in the graph quite a bit worse, but they are a lot safer

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:45 PM

#

that's the thing, these batteries are not made to be manufactured into products

#

they are meant to be used like eneloops etc

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:45 PM

#

the exact batteries you have exist in products too

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:45 PM

#

the nitecore ones? i doubt it

#

that would be a massive waste of money

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:46 PM

#

I've got one on the floor around here somewhere, came out of a playstation move navigation controller

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:46 PM

#

i'm gonna take a wilde guess and say it is blue

#

and it has text on it that looks like it was printed with a dot matrix printer? yes?

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:47 PM

#

here's the thing

#

that's not a detail that matters

#

it's the same kind of battery coming out of the same kind of factory

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:48 PM

#

i know lol i'm teasing

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:48 PM

#

different packaging

#

this one is shrinkwrapped witha protection board and a wire lead

#

there are many like it, but this one is mine, and it's fungible with all of the others because they're a commodity

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:49 PM

#

so anyways what you are saying is the difference is made by the charger, not the battery

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:49 PM

#

close enough

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:50 PM

#

lol no fair quoting full metal jacket, how am i gonna top that without tripping the censor?? 😛

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:50 PM

#

the charger could be set up to stop charging at 4V, and you'd get a lot more cycles with the rated capacity

#

overcharging gives you more than rated capacity, though not at a great rate, but costs lifetime

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:51 PM

#

yeah but i wouldn't get 1000 lumen out of a flashlight that disappears in my hand

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:51 PM

#

sure you could

#

the battery is going to drop from 4.2 to 4V very fast anyway, if you need a high voltage you should use a regulator

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:52 PM

#

i have to use IMR batteries just to get the 1000 lumen

#

that's ANSI btw

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:53 PM

#

fun fact, the vast majority of standard format lithium cells are counterfeit, they'll probably serve the purpose you bought'm for, but they probably weren't made by the company they're marked as

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:54 PM

#

i avoid them like the plague

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:55 PM

#

this includes the batteries you buy

#

and eneloops, especially eneloops

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:55 PM

#

when it comes to lithium i only use branded batteries

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:55 PM

#

yea, the branding is likely to be fake

#

says samsung, made by rando factory in china totally unassociated with samsung

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:55 PM

#

nah, i am not ordering them from china lol

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:56 PM

#

of course you are, manufacturing lithium batteries outside of china is insanely expensive

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:56 PM

#

i mean ebay etc. i get them from reputable dealers, sir! 😛

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:56 PM

#

and where do they get them from

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:57 PM

#

china, obviously 😛

#

but direct from nitecore

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:57 PM

#

how certain could you possibly be of that

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:57 PM

#

presumably

#

well i don't live in the us, that helps 😛

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:57 PM

#

there's too many hands for certainty

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:57 PM

#

i'm in holland, laws are fairly strict here, so there's that

#

but ultimately performance

#

these flashlights push those batteries to their limits

#

like i said the one i have that does 1000 lumen needs imr batteries to get that output

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:58 PM

#

lithium cells are a known technology, unless you're getting straight up fake batteries they're all going to perform pretty similar

#

the fakes are fun though

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:59 PM

#

i think a lot of fakes are just very old stock

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:59 PM

#

https://lightsngear.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/bad-18650.jpg

#

no no, fake batteries

#

not real batteries

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:59 PM

#

ROFL!

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:59 PM

#

counterfeit is kind of just accepted because most counterfeits perform acceptably

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 7:59 PM

#

that's an ultrafire though

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 7:59 PM

#

https://i.imgur.com/beGzXbh.jpg

Imgur

Found this fake 18650 picture elsewhere on reddit, figured I'd cross post here for awareness

#

oh yea 100% of ultrafires are counterfit, and half are fake

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 8:00 PM

#

lol anything with ###fire in the name

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 8:00 PM

#

http://i.imgur.com/aPGyA.jpg

Imgur

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 8:00 PM

#

except surefire, but they are elitest so bleep them

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 8:01 PM

#

this one's great, it's literally just full of small rocks

📎 V4FwKv6qKBFov0Bz7MQbmhYRLfaZNI8DZ1kGn3HlFdNRObLf8mmlUhLGHgn6Qe1eIbGEL5kABstIkHVu3o6CzEW-zgbnrvlYZx5u.png

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 8:01 PM

#

lol

#

i could still use those for dioramas 😛

#

oh hell, lol i already have some of what i need!

#

i got some wemos d1 minis a while back, and with them i got a battery shield

#

it is ratoed for 3.3-4.2v and charges etc

#

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ESP8266-WeMos-D1-Mini-Pro-NodeMCU-Arduino-IDE-OLED-Relay-Proto-Dual-WIFI-Shield/272584170426?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&var=571700286393&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

eBay

ESP8266 WeMos D1 Mini Pro NodeMCU Arduino IDE,OLED Relay Proto Dua...

ESP8266 Wifi WeMos D1 Mini ESP 12F 12E DHT22 AM2320 CP2104 CH340 For NodeMCU. WeMos D1 ProtoBoard Shield formini double side perf board for Arduino New. Dual bases for all Wemos D1 Mini modules and shields. | eBay!

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 8:05 PM

#

the voltages are entirely dependent on chemistry, doesn't matter who makes it or what shape it's in

#

oh the D1

#

yea it uses the 1117, which isn't great

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 8:05 PM

#

but it works

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 8:05 PM

#

the 1117 has a dropout of 1V

#

so it can regulate a Vin of Vout + 1 or greater

#

the AP2112 can do Vout + 0.1 or greater

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 8:07 PM

#

so it would have to be 4.3v or higher?

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 8:07 PM

#

it gets fiddly because linear regulator dropout is a curve that trends with current draw....

#

everything is complicated

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 8:07 PM

#

it says TP5410 on the chip in the picture

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 8:07 PM

#

the lower your current the lower the dropout is

#

maybe I was looking at a different D1

#

china and whatnot

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 8:08 PM

#

i am looking at a battery shield for it

#

it has a charger and regulator, and the listing says 'just plug in a 3.3 -4.2v battery'

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 8:08 PM

#

gj google

📎 unknown.png

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 8:09 PM

#

https://s3-ap-southeast-1.amazonaws.com/a2.datacaciques.com/wm/NDAy/1592215164/1237815137.jpg

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 8:09 PM

#

https://datasheet.lcsc.com/szlcsc/Nanjing-Extension-Microelectronics-TP5410_C79927.pdf

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 8:09 PM

#

lol that's in chinese 😛

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 8:09 PM

#

you get used to it

#

so that's a charge controller

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 8:10 PM

#

i haven;t even gotten used to the electro lingo yet

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 8:10 PM

#

Vout is nominal 5V

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 8:10 PM

#

yeah it charges the battery

#

i think that's in

#

it says u have to charge it from 5v

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 8:10 PM

#

so it's a charge controller with a built in boost regulator to 5V, that's going to be why the 1117 can work

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 8:10 PM

#

i guess that's what the usb is for

#

well in any case it is made for the 8266, so it should work for the other boards based on that, right?

#

at least to the point of not frying my board

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 8:12 PM

#

seems reasonable, but because it's boosting to 5V and then linear down to 3V3, it's never going to have a great efficiency

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 8:12 PM

#

is it though?

#

i don't see any 3 legged creatures on this board

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 8:12 PM

#

depending on current load the boost converter is probably 50~80% efficiency

#

this board is giving 5V to the D1

#

the D1 regulates it to 3V3

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 8:13 PM

#

there's that chip, 2x ss23 and 1x r330

#

the d1 can take 5v?

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 8:13 PM

#

https://escapequotes.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/esp8266-wemos-d1-mini-pinout.png

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 8:14 PM

#

wait, so when it says a board is rated 3.3v, like say the 3.3v version of the arduino pro mini, they are only talking about the logic??

#

and i could still power it with 5v?

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 8:14 PM

#

no

#

yes? what

#

the board has a linear regulator to turn 5V USB into 3V3

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 8:15 PM

#

right

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 8:15 PM

#

the only thing running on 5V should be the red LED

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 8:15 PM

#

and it just means i need to use 3.3v on the i/o pins

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 8:15 PM

#

so the battery board is providing 5V to the 5V pin, which is common with the 5V line on the USB port

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 8:15 PM

#

and it is just a boost converter

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 8:16 PM

#

this has the advantage that you're boosting the battery up to something the 3V3 regulator can accept, and you'll be able to use the whole range of the battery's voltage

#

the down side is that's low efficiency, and then it has to be regulated down to 3V3, which will be on the order of maybe 90% efficient, but that will drop as current rises

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 8:17 PM

#

oh what the F am i thinking, anything with a usb port can be powered from 5v, duh

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 8:17 PM

#

the boost converter will be more efficient with higher currents, the linear regulator will be less, so you're probably looking at about 75% twice

#

a 2200mAh battery would have a useful capacity on the order of 1200mAh

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 8:18 PM

#

i have lots of small 5v boosters lying around

#

i'm trying to solve a problem i don't have lol

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 8:19 PM

#

if you boost the battery to 4V it'll be more efficient

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 8:19 PM

#

that shield is prolly just a 5v booster, if the wemos will take 5v

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 8:19 PM

#

it takes more than 4V

#

if you have an adjustable power supply of any sort, set it up to produce 5V, and put your multimeter in voltage mode between the 3V pin and GND, also have a second multimeter monitoring the supply voltage

#

then turn down the supply until the 3V pin becomes inconsistent, and go with maybe 0.2V more than that

#

the lowest voltage you can put into a linear regulator is the most efficient

#

📎 unknown.png

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 8:28 PM

#

well most of what i plan to do with the wemos things are not gonna be portable

#

i think

#

and those things that are, i tend to overdo it with the batteries anyway lol

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 8:30 PM

#

sure, but~

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 8:30 PM

#

like a 16340 like that is way more then i would need for most things, so i think i can live with the efficiency in most cases, ill have to see

#

for now what matters is getting something working reasonably well without blowing up

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 8:31 PM

#

so say the D1 turns out to be stable at 4.2V input, at 5V it's 1.7V of drop, at 4.2V it's 0.9V of drop, so the peak waste wattage is reduced by 47%

#

I don't know the math, but presumibly boosting the voltage less high also improves the efficiency of that stage

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 8:33 PM

#

i'd imagine the smaller the difference in and out the smaller the loss

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 8:33 PM

#

makes sense to me

#

gotta keep in mind the load current factor though https://www.digikey.com/en/articles/techzone/2013/jul/~/media/Images/Article Library/TechZone Articles/2013/July/Selecting the Right Voltage Converter Is Not Just About Peak Efficiency/article-2013july-selecting-the-right-voltage-converter-fig2.jpg

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 8:37 PM

#

yeah peak efficiency i think is something ill likely look into deeper around the same time i get around to ordering pcbs

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 8:37 PM

#

if I'm reading this article right, this graph represents input voltages as shown, with an output voltage of 4.5V, so yes, having Vin closer to Vout improves efficiency; and it improves it a looooot at lower currents https://www.digikey.com/en/articles/techzone/2013/jul/~/media/Images/Article Library/TechZone Articles/2013/July/Selecting the Right Voltage Converter Is Not Just About Peak Efficiency/article-2013july-selecting-the-right-voltage-converter-fig3.jpg

#

notice converting 4.5V to 4.5V is still 90~95% efficient

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 8:38 PM

#

right, less heat = less loss

#

heh, i was wondering what would happen if u get close to the same values

#

what happens if u go over?

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 8:38 PM

#

and these curves are going to vary with every single boost converter, and they're going to varry with every converter for different component values

#

I think it explodes

dusty citrus Nov 25, 2018, 8:39 PM

#

lol that makes sense

jaunty jetty Nov 25, 2018, 8:41 PM

#

probably what actually happens is that it becomes irregular and does start to heat up but it wouldn't explode at 4.6V unless there's a lot of current

dusty citrus Nov 26, 2018, 2:21 AM

#

New clock program in gforth

📎 the_thirty_Eight-aa.png

#

Right now I'm just counting from :00 to :59

#

The :38 there is a very large font xterm. For comparison, a fairly small font xterm is shown (upper left, yellow text).

#

The file manager in the upper right (stubbornly) uses fonts too small for me to see, but may be suited to some (possibly most) users.

#

#!/bin/sh
FNSIZ=128
exec xterm -fa 'mono' -fs ${FNSIZ} \
  -ls +sb -geometry 10x5+0+30 \
    -fg cyan4 -bg black \
     -e /bin/bash --login >/dev/null 2>&1 &

#

the '-fa mono -fs 128' is the means to make a giant-fonted xterm.
I've done up to 512, maybe 1024 --
it's not especially sensitive to powers of two; that's just a habit of mine.

#

repository for the kitchen timer is here:
https://github.com/wa1tnr/gforth-exp/tree/testing_aaa-/ktimer

#

 $ git pull --all
 $ git checkout testing_aaa-```

karmic kite Nov 26, 2018, 3:43 AM

#

I really wish windows had a command similar to alias

#

especially for dir and ls

late fulcrum Nov 26, 2018, 4:01 AM

#

I think there's a bash port available for windows.

dusty citrus Nov 26, 2018, 4:06 AM

#

Years ago it was cygwin this and cygwin that.

vernal gale Nov 26, 2018, 4:07 AM

#

there's also git bash and wsl

dusty citrus Nov 26, 2018, 4:08 AM

#

It would take Microsoft five minutes to write a bash shell for you, but they did not. And these are your friends?

#

Apple gives you csh and bash is provided.

#

Why can't the other children play nicely?

karmic kite Nov 26, 2018, 4:18 AM

#

I mean window has bash subshell

#

how ever II'd like to open cmd and have it configured some what similar

#

ls command not found dir... Like I feel liike I just mock myself

dusty citrus Nov 26, 2018, 4:20 AM

#

well just make batch files *.bat

#

Is this an MSDOS derived command set?

#

When you type ls and some parameters after it, they'll be passed by LS.BAT to the MS-DOS DIR command.

#

at least that worked in 1990. ;) I used MS-DOS from 1983 to 1994 or so.

karmic kite Nov 26, 2018, 4:24 AM

#

make a folder of batch files for the enviroment variable... I like it

dusty citrus Nov 26, 2018, 4:25 AM

#

There was a 2.5" thick book, maybe 8x10" pages -- all on MS-DOS. I had a copy or access to one.

#

TBH if I were using MS-DOS today I'd just relearn a dozen or so commands and use them.

#

I had a rule for myself when using WordPerfect (which had a large following, around its version 5.1 or so)

#

The rule was: when I travel, I don't bring my 'macros' with me -- I use straight WordPerfect on the other person's machine (it was usually available).

#

So I always knew how to do it the hard way; the macros allowed me to also do it the easy way. ;)

#

I still follow that idea, quite a bit, in linux: I do a lot of things manually that could be scripted.

#

I don't consider leveraging the command line scroll-back history 'not doing it manually' ;)

karmic kite Nov 26, 2018, 4:29 AM

#

I never realy got into macros, some vbs auto forms but never macros

dusty citrus Nov 26, 2018, 4:30 AM

#

I don't even remember anything about them, now. ;) Lotus 1-2-3 also had a macro language, which was the only time I saw my brother take any interest in programming his computer.

#

I rigged his boot diskette so that when Lotus 1-2-3 ran, it played back a macro that said GHOST IN THE MACHINE.
The last step in the macro was to delete evidence of itself. So it only ran once. ;)

#

I think I waited 45 days, and did it again, until he asked about it. ;)

karmic kite Nov 26, 2018, 4:32 AM

#

I just started on latex today not a huge fan of it personally

dusty citrus Nov 26, 2018, 4:33 AM

#

I did like LaTeX but you need LyX to go with it.

karmic kite Nov 26, 2018, 4:35 AM

#

I've been using tex, is lyx nicer?

dusty citrus Nov 26, 2018, 4:36 AM

#

LyX as I remember it is similar to WYSIWYG style editor.

#

I think it let you visualize quickly what the source would do; I don't remember how it was for editing inside the WYSIWYG or if that were part of it.

#

I do remember liking it enough to use it a lot.

karmic kite Nov 26, 2018, 4:37 AM

#

I might have to try that!

dusty citrus Nov 26, 2018, 4:37 AM

#

It was a little clunky. I hope they maintained it or even improved it.

#

There might be something altogether more modern that does its job, today.

karmic kite Nov 26, 2018, 4:38 AM

#

I'm a huge fan of jupytr notebooks especially when combine with sagemath, but this report was requested to be in latex

dusty citrus Nov 26, 2018, 4:49 AM

#

I'm always amazed at what wasn't installed, when I install something specific for a specific goal, in Debian.

#

I try to to as barebones as possible when I start a new system from scratch.
It can take months before all the tools I use for at least five hours a year, find their way onto a new system. ;)

#

In this instance, it seems to be installing JavaScript for the first time. ;)

late fulcrum Nov 26, 2018, 4:54 AM

#

I came from troff, so I just dived in to LaTeX the same way. HTML, too. I just put the tokens in myself.

dusty citrus Nov 26, 2018, 4:58 AM

#

This manual is designed for all of you who have never heard of LaTeX, or do not know it very well. Now, do not panic – you will not need to learn LaTeX to use LyX. That is, after all, the whole point of LyX: to provide an almost-WYSIWYG interface to LaTeX. There are some things you will need to learn, however, in order to use LyX effectively.

karmic kite Nov 26, 2018, 5:05 AM

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I'm currently reading through that

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it seems a tad slow, takes bit to render things as you scroll back and forth through a document

dusty citrus Nov 26, 2018, 5:07 AM

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Yeah it was slow as I remember it.

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But you didn't want to learn LaTeX to that degree, did you? ;)

karmic kite Nov 26, 2018, 5:09 AM

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I mean documents in general aren't my forte

dusty citrus Nov 26, 2018, 5:09 AM

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I just didn't have a use case after one project (I downloaded someone's math paper, made mechanical changes, and uploaded it them).

karmic kite Nov 26, 2018, 5:10 AM

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I've had a greek keyboard enabled for years windows+space makes typing up math documents really easy

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on any word processor

dusty citrus Nov 26, 2018, 5:11 AM

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I like source code; the thing I don't want is a mixed binary and textual 'database' (aka a 'file') that holds my document. I want the markup to be captured in ASCII so that no matter what happens, I still have the base text (and can profitably ignore any markup).