game-update

[sacred oracle]

If you're not in a hot spot (revs, wildy bosses, pirates), it's completely empty.

And even when I do the clue step right outside of boss lair entrances, or use the rev teleport for clue steps, I still never see anyone.

[ember token]

unrelated, may want to look in #game-questions, there's a guy spamming posts about the same suggestion repeatedly

[chrome lantern]

#1022203837265756231

[ember token]

oops*

yeah i meant suggestions

[chrome lantern]

There's a chance he just doesn't know how to edit a post he's making one extremely minor change per post

[sacred oracle]

Thanks for letting me know, I'll take care of it

[ionic tartan]

1. Requirements are part of the caves, and how Jagex is adjusting them rather than removing it. Just like how fees are part of the anti-ragging measure they implemented.
2. Going with the Vorkath example, how is Vorkath less gp/hr in craftables and alchables? The uniques make up a fraction of the rewards at Vorkath, where are you getting that idea from? Also, Vorkath is even worse in that there's no limit on the instances you can spawn compared to finite spots for revs.

I think you're going off track, I'm focused on your flawed premise of "PvP, bots, economy, pvm, rwt, rag clans" being a reason to remove revs (#game-update message). Revs also serve the purpose of progression just like any other content, and is far less egregious than some completely "resource-warping" content like muspah and vorkath have done to the economy (which is one of the 6 premises you put forth as a reason to remove revs).

I'm pointing to visibility because I think that's the main reason revs seem so much worse if you're not looking at the highscores.

It's not as simple as lower reqs=higher volume. It's moreso higher profit -> higher volume.
-Bot makers also put more resources into anything with higher profit, which in turn increases volume despite it having a high req. The volume of bots is much more a result of the profitability of the content (why elves, vyres, muspah, vorkath, doom, etc are heavily botted despite having "high" reqs).

[lone flare]

how do we find out an eta on the implementation of game jam?

it says they 'wrapped up' which implies they're done, so how can we find out an eta for these updates

@ some mod

[restive siren]

There is no eta

Some will get polled if they have enough support, some dont ever make it into the game

[chrome lantern]

A bunch of the updates from last few game jams never even made it to polls, much less implementation yeah

[lone flare]

oh thats horrible. so these could not even ever see the light of day?

jamflex plucked us again!!!

i thought they all auto- went thru

[restive siren]

Thats how gamejams work, they are just a couple of days of jmods shooting the shit and being creative

[austere mulch]

The suggestion to remove revs is because they have only ever been more of a problem than a benefit, which was significantly more dramatic early on but is still largely an issue with the content as a whole. It does not fill its intended purpose well and instead is a breeding ground for botting due to the easy of access and impact.

As far as botting goes, the three major categories I view them at are: severity, impact, and access

Severity - volume of botting activity, likeliness of catching the bots before the activity begins, time spent in the activity before getting caught

Impact - self explanatory, but the general economic impact per account over a period of time. Typically per hour or per 10 hours. Directly influences severity

Access - again, self explanatory. Directly impacts severity and influences impact

Saying “it’s not more of a problem here because it’s a problem everywhere else too” is just dishonest at best

For example, say a zulrah bot and a rev bot have equal impact, which they don’t, rev bots have much greater severity due to the access. Meaning as a whole, it’s a more immediate problem - though both need absolutely be addressed

The example of ftp doom send bots are cases of extreme severity, unlimited access, low impact. Tob bots would be low severity, low access, moderate impact (subjective)

Realistically,
Revs are high severity, low access, and high impact. And that’s an improvement of its previous state with the original “pre-balanced” loot and multi caves

And I hold the opinion that revs are too far gone that it’d be a genuine benefit to scrap at start from scratch. Similar to how they scrapped the duel arena after years

[lone flare]

too far gone, currently?

or totally as an update/ drop table?

[lone flare]

however with the duel arena, they didn't even give us an alternative. just copy pasted safe pvp/ f2p clan wars/ lms

[vivid ruin]

I dont think wilderness has ever had people outside of hotspots. Those who used to pk at wilderness line now do it at ge

Its like saying i never see people outside of toa pyramid, theyre all inside lol

[sacred oracle]

When a large area of the map has no one to be seen at any of its locations while you're running around it several times a day, even outside of boss lairs, even outside of revs, I think it's not unfair to refer to the area as dead.

Not that I mind it, of course.

I'm the prey, I'm happy for wildy to be as dead as possible so I can do what I have to in peace.

[lone flare]

the fact i can ice plateau tele and have no chance of dying.... is kinda lacklustr with what the wilderness 'should be"

if people want the wild to have features as a 'place of peace'..... they sholdn't have a vote in revitalizing it

This is the O.G. vs tourist comparison

Jamflex catering to the weak and castrating a zone where violence should happen often

[quiet plank]

Everyone is in the rev caves or in the boss rooms. Even outside of bosses I see scouts all the time

[ionic tartan]

Because Jagex has already addressed so many issues with revs and are even addressing them more (diary reqs), how is the remove revs due to botting suggestion not as valid as a suggestion to remove Vorkath, Muspah, etc etc on those same bases of rwt, botting, economy, pvm?

Saying revs are just as much if not less so a problem is called being honest - it's dishonest and ignorant to suggest the likes of vorkath, zulrah, or muspah are less warping to the economy. They literally reshaped the price of resources.

The issue isn't just that these reasons you put out ("pvp, bots, economy, pvm, rwt, rag clans") are dishonest and hypocritical, it's that they stem from motivated reasoning against revs more than they are out of honest, genuine concern for those 6 issues.

[chrome lantern]

The economy is marred by more than just revs/zombie pirates/wildy agi/etc. but TM brings up good points about cost and accessibility. I don't think the bloated loot tables from Muspah, Vorkath, etc. are healthy either

[ember token]

i mean, the requirements for vorkath, muspah, etc are much higher than "accessible immediately after purchasing members"

its because wilderness content is as good as content with much higher requirements that people take issue with it over the normal content

[ionic tartan]

I agree with that view on why people take issue. The current design of wildy rewards is faster progression (slayer, money, agil, etc) with risk. It's not immediately profitable (diary, levels, gear still needed more than immediate membership from 0), just lower reqs for riskier gains before you hit endgame methods.

Edit: and without warping the economy unlike heavily botted midgame bosses like muspah, vorkath, zulrah, etc.

[thick beacon]

its justfied because wildy is "risky" more then anything imo. even content with reqs/accsessbility loses to it far more then it should

[dreamy fractal]

Which part of these does the fact that bots are taking up limited spots from real players fall under/ Access or Impact)

because for example a zulrah bot has no impact on my gameplay because I can still fight zulrah

but if revs are flooded with level 60-70 bots in dhide with webweavers shooting every revenant in sight

Im directly impacted in terms of being able to effectively play

[austere mulch]

Severity, impact, access

Filling intended purpose or no?

[austere mulch]

I specific economic impact there, but to your point, there are different measures of impact

[austere mulch]

I don’t think any version of the rev caves that we’ve gotten in osrs have come close to hitting the mark and each has only caused more problems than created solutions, so I’d rather see it ripped and replaced with a new system altogether

Rip the bandaid off type of situation, but I wouldn’t want it to get the duel arena treatment per se

[austere mulch]

Rev caves:
pvp - it’s far less PvP than it is pker vs bot. The content, at large, has failed to bring in genuine players who seek the risk vs reward. So the vast majority of your time spent pvping there is just clipping off bots until you run into another pker after hopping 50 worlds (see comment earlier in thread)

Bots - low access requirements + extreme profitability in raw gp equivalents is a breeding ground for bots. Obviously vorkath gets botted too, but if you think there are an equal number of vorkath bots as there are rev bots, you’re just being purposefully ignorant. And even the measured impact (raw gp introduced per hour) is greater at revs than vorkath, despite having significant fewer requirements

Economy - in the context of botting, again this is a far greater impact regarding the generation of raw gold into the economy. Obviously vorkath’s drop table is a problem as well, but the severity is significantly less than revs due to access (doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be addressed). And vorkath still fills its other priorities being providing strong prayer xp via superior & dragon bones, dragon dart tips, and dragon bolts. Revs are failing their intended purpose and are just, more or less, pumping gold into the game via bots.

Pvm - again, at large failed the objective of bringing pvmers into the wildy ecosystem. It’s mostly pker vs bot

Rwt - issue anywhere botting is prevalent. Again, revs are far too much raw gold with far to few requirements, thus are a bot haven

Rag clans - disappeared with the removal of multi revs, but were the #1 complaint whilst it existed

There’s nothing dishonest or hypocritical about my view. It’s strictly based on the reality of the content

There is, however, extreme dishonesty to shove that under the rug and say “but vorkath is botted too!”

Both can be issues - and they are. And one of them can be a far larger issue, which it is.

[vivid ruin]

Is anyone going to read this

[chrome lantern]

I already did

[austere mulch]

[chrome lantern]

Jagex-wise, I assume you mean?

No way to know

[tacit wharf]

tbh, put together pretty well, and wasnt too hard on the eyes

for a wall of text, it wasnt really a wall

[vivid ruin]

Ok ill give it a go

Why did revs go from roaming the wild to a cave in the first place?

[tacit wharf]

cuz roaming was beyond annoying and fustrating for most people (pvp and pvmers alike)

[craggy wind]

The wall is reading comprehension

[vivid ruin]

The wall is generally bad grammar and neverending sentences

[ember token]

yeah i'm afraid your grammar wasnt perfect, and you had too many sentences in your post, so point is invalid, and anyone who shares your opinion is wrong

[chrome lantern]

You didn't start your statement with a capital letter or use an apostrophe in your contraction so I didn't read what you said but it was probably wrong

[obsidian venture]

Tm broke it down nicely

While I do enjoy revs, it is a problem that needs to be addressed

I’d like the content to remain but would like a bigger rework for revs and other wildy related stuff

The ease of access is kinda hurting it

[ember grove]

revs are in a bleak place without multi, and I say that as someone who doesn't like multi revs (and most of osrs multi pvp tbh)

when they were in multi, they worked as an inherent kind of king of the hill incentive because you could get tons of resources and gold when you were the ones in command, and it drove fights to get or regain that control

the wildy bosses have a similar vibe but they're much more concentrated

at present, all they are is a weird relic of that gameplay style in terms of spitting out tons of resources with low reqs, but it's so fragmented and relatively easy to escape that bots have swarmed it and you don't have multi clans to wipe them out

[vivid ruin]

I feel like if they added more naturally harmful stuff to the wild itd help in its own way with bots and bigger clans. Like make lava randomly blow up on people, make revs spawn randomly and in dense populations depending on player population in a location, make blizards freeze players, etc

[tacit wharf]

so things like making a 6 second log out timer while in combat before u cant tele/log out, and patching safe spots so u have to be in combat

[zinc bloom]

Is anyone going to read this?

[vivid ruin]

I didnt write a book but ok

[languid ravine]

yep we have to delete the wilderness because bots exist

[dreamy fractal]

As long as they lock PvM bis items that are used outside of wildy, the iron population (however small a percentage it might be) at large will likely never vote for something that makes revs more exclusive/harder to kill

you're already looking at needing like 30 tasks and 3.5k ork kills skulled to hit droprate for your items, that's a long ass time in the caves

[vivid ruin]

More reasons irons should be able to vote for main game 😬

[hard axle]

Yup, I've said it before and I'll say it again, multi should have content, but the idea of just being able to instant teleport + access at super low levels is a problem.

Grand Seed Pod is literally one of the least balanced items because it's 2 GP and teleports up to 30

There's a reason why you can't teleport out of BH and why it's one of the few <30 wildy areas that is balanced.

I played a mmo where the guild v guild or anything like that where they defend a profitable area has always been fun (especially as the underdog).

[sharp cave]

would adding +20k risk to everyone make any difference though?

[languid ravine]

no

[hard axle]

No, because there is little to no risk below 30 wildy unless u dc or go afk

[meager flame]

the problem with stuff like this is that usually

there is an actual level of balancing

like usually the longer you hold something as a group the harder it gets and the games will eventually start stacking odds against you by buffing the people trying to take it back and so on

so like the losing guilds or faction or whatever depending on the game eventually does get to experience whatever it is you get by holding the area

and jagex could do that

they probably even should be doing stuff like that

but they generally don't really come within a mile of giving a clan a reason to do something and a reward for everyone in the clan once its accomplished

so its an absolutely wide open lane for content/rewards/whatever that they just haven't done a single thing with

[ionic tartan]

PvP - how does bots being a problem diminish its value as a pvp spot? You're ignoring pvp because bots

Bots - You're being purposely ignorant if you think the measured impact of rev bots is lower than Vorkath bots

Economy - what is their intended purpose if not to be a profitable location in exchange for more risk? How is your pumping gold argument in any way unique to revs. Vorkath also pumps gold and even resources that create alchs (dhide).

Pvm - again, you're ignoring pvm because bots. Pvmers still pvm there.

Rwt - again you're ignoring rwt because bots. Bot haven is stuff like doom that are highly profitable, and instanced

Rag clan - so now that they are fixed, how does that support your case of "remove revs" when it actively disproves it?

You're literally pulling together a bunch of disingenuous arguments to try to make the "remove revs" argument. None of them stand alone and half of them (pvm, pvp, rwt) just ignore the position just to fall back to bots.

You're doubling down on a failed premise because you're not being honest about your application of the arguments.

It's reasonable to say rwt, botting, economy are problems. But it's hypocritical because your applying it to revs in a way that is not done for any other content. Aka: "remove doom/tob/vorkath" because bots/rwt/economy isn't a argument that sees traction even when a non-hypocritical person would see any of those as bigger impact issues than revs. You're literally advocating for the removal of content "remove revs" by hypocritically applying standards that would see a lot of other content removed if applied with a strictly reality based view.

[austere mulch]

if you genuinely think the volume of gold introduced to the game by rev bots is equal to or less than vork bots, then i juts dont know what to tell you. Either that or you're being intentionally dishonest.

To be clear, we're talking about the impact to the economy as a result of the bots doing the content. Not the impact of the content itself.

Vorkath is locked behind a long list of skills and quests, revs are locked behind 24hours of training. Just sounds like your feelings are hurt to the point that you fail to acklowledge any negativity associated with revs regarding game health (which is the majority) because bots exist elsewhere too lol

lock revs behind a gm quest and like vorkath, it'll still be a problem. It'd be less of a problem though

That is not an actual suggestion, but should be easy enough for you to understand i'd hope

though its still be failing its intended purpose at large

[ionic tartan]

Like in the vorkath example, your feelings are keeping you from honestly looking at things. High reqs doesn't directly mean less bots. It's determined by profitablility, which vorkath has a lot of. It's why vorkath bot purges see prices surge. You don't get that with revs but you're still naively thinking reqs (instead of profitablility) simply means less bots at a content.

Again, the point from the beginning of this convo is your conclusion of "remove revs" is a dishonest and hypocritical application of a bundle of arguments that would see a lot of content removed if realistically and honestly applied.

[austere mulch]

Higher reqs does translate to less bots, that is objectively fact. That's why they added wildy diary reqs to revs and want to introduce higher fees to lower tiers of diary completions - to help combat bots. That's why they added wildy diary reqs around wildy bosses too

suggesting that higher reqs doesn't reduce bot volume is wild

Of the 1m+ bots that were banned this FY, what percentage of them do you think are doom-send type ftp bots compared to higher end pvm bots

profitability increases bot volume, obviously

[ionic tartan]

You're confusing "harder to bot" with less bots. You're naive if you think "high" reqs like quest directly means less bots.

[austere mulch]

profitability with lower access increases it at a larger scale

higher reqs = more likely to get banned prior to reaching the content

Do you genuinely think on a volume basis, there are an equal number of rev bots as vorkath bots?

or less than*

[ionic tartan]

Bot makers aren't dumb. They devote more resources to more profitable content. Harder to bot doesn't mean it won't get more bot resources if it's super profitable

[austere mulch]

the suggestion to remove revs is to replace it with a better system, because the current system has been tried and failed many times over with little redeemable qualities

[austere mulch]

#game-update message Answer this for me, please

[austere mulch]

revs are more profitable than vorkath btw

profitability also includes time/resources for the investement. Investing less time/resources to see equal or greater profits = volume

tob bots are a lot more "expensive" than woodcutting bots for example

to get to the content

because you get clipped earlier/prior to getting to the content much more frequently

But regardless, an answer to that question would be nice

[ionic tartan]

Volume including banned/failed/"clipped" along the way? Vorkath is more.
Volume at point in time? Depends on when purges happen but revs have a bit more.
Volume based on resources/visible economic impact? Vorkath easily - prices move a lot when vorkath bots are purged

[ionic tartan]

If your concern is bots then why not more reqs, like the current proposal to add diary reqs?

You literally said to remove revs and scratch it
#game-update message #game-update message

A "better system" is just an empty point to try to prop up the "remove revs" argument, especially when you aren't even proposing a better system nor does an alternative exist right now.

[ember token]

i would put a slayer req on revenants, higher level revs = higher slayer level req

[sharp cave]

Its hard to believe that it will have any impact at all when rune dragons are camped at almost every spot in almost every world by bots

[ember token]

there's not a lot of rune dragons, and between people doing slayer tasks, people afking them on their alt(s) for money, and bots, that makes them pretty contested

especially now that metal dragon slayer tasks can be much longer

[austere mulch]

This is crazy lol.

1. Even if you included failed bots (bots that didn't make it to the content) - why? They arent impacting the areas which we are discussing. We're making assessments on the impact the bots have at these pieces of content. If they don't make it there, then they aren't included. This is the exact benefit of higher reqs that we are talking about

2. Regarding price swings, we're talking about drop tables here. Superior dragon bones are only dropped from vorkath (and frost dragons) - obviously there will be large swings. Revs drop almost entirely alch-value (raw gp equivalent) items, which is part of the problem. On vork bot purges, these items don't swing either

3. Diary reqs to reduce fees aren't enough. Its still accessible just with a 'cost' that only is actually a 'cost' if the bot dies (and it's plenty easy to teleport away)

also regarding 1, you said it youself. Bot makers are smart and generally try to maximize their investments. If accounts are more likely to get purged prior to making it to one piece of content, on top of taking longer to get there and the content being less profitable with greater gear requirements

in what world does it make sense that these intelligent people would produce those at a higher volume than something where 1. they get to the end content at a greater clip, 2. they have to invest less on the account itself (time and gear) and 3. get greater returns/hr at the content itself

[austere mulch]

i think something like Tuerkey's KOTH style suggestion where the longer you hold, the harder it becomes to hold, would be cool. Add in areas of revs that have slayer reqs/diary reqs attached and taper back on the raw gp

All in all thatd be cool. Not sure how youd implement it in a way that makes sense tho

[median wing]

frost dragons have their own bones

[austere mulch]

they do yeah, they also drop superior dragon bones uncommonly

[median wing]

oh

[true talon]

Frost dragon bones have been rising as currently after 2 weeks after i killed 16k of them the bones rose 1.2k each

mainly because its isolated from bots

To easily farm frost dragons you need 87 sailing, a good boat and fairy rings which all take a lot of time to complete.

better investment to just make rev bot

[hard axle]

Old revs were substantially better because they were 27-40, which made them easier to pk.

You need even more dedicated pk accs for cuz low level accs farming at 17 wildy

[narrow hollow]

Any chance we can get loadout slots for 1 click gear switching and hotkey prayers? I feel like it would make pvm and pvp much more fun. Also get rid of run energy ;D

[restive siren]

prayer hotkeys are never coming to this game

gear loadouts very maybe at some point if we are talking at a bank only

[quiet plank]

If only they could remove run energy lol. It'll never happen though

[obsidian venture]

Wouldn't want all 3

But for the argument above it's kinda funny comparing something you can pretty much access instantly vs something that has a decent amount of reqs to even access

[zenith pike]

add titles to RS, anyone with sub 80 agility gets <Salad Dodger>

[narrow hollow]

Loadout switches would allow for more complicated boss mechanics (still have them take up inventory space) less time clicking in inventory = more dodging the "shit on the floor" and would make pking a lot more fun

[restive siren]

will not happen

doing gear switches is a major part of the skill in osrs, especially in pvp

[obsidian venture]

It'll never happen and you should be able to switch and move. It's called skill issue and it's something that can be worked on

[narrow hollow]

ehhhh id say its a skill until you learn it, then its just a chore stopping you from actually enjoying content

[obsidian venture]

Fun is whatever to everyone but this is useless to add to the game

It's just a core "skill" in this game

Rewards effort and practice

[restive siren]

with that logic we can remove every skillful element in the game because once you learnt it its not a skill anymore

that makes no sense

[chrome lantern]

Wait, you meant like a hotkey full gear swap? Yeah nah absolutely not. I thought you meant like bank presets

[narrow hollow]

I hear you, but it would 100% allow for more chaotic boss mechanics

no not f-key gear swaps

[chrome lantern]

What do you mean by this then

[narrow hollow]

I might have misspoke, what I mean is make gear switches stay in designated slots so big switches and 2h spec weapons from 1h attack weapons dont shuffle your inv after 5+ switches

[vivid ruin]

Id prefer they make a different game. Because adding that would make the whole current game mega cheese

Like rs3 should've been a different game

[narrow hollow]

rs3 is horriable

[vivid ruin]

Correct. It should've been a new game from scratch instead of messing up whats already there as game mechanics

[narrow hollow]

My poor main is stuck in rs3 6months from 20year cape

[final frigate]

inv management is part of skill

either unswitching or dragging to fix

having a clean and efficient layout for your clicks

[obsidian venture]

Yeah easily solved with a few minutes of looking at your inv

[final frigate]

setting it up so that your 1h/shield - 2h switches keep things in order

also you have more than just set switches, you have things like specs, multiple options for each style, things you only switch as needed (def drains at the start, lb spec cycles during the fight), etc

part of player choice and expression

pnecks (yuck tob)

[obsidian venture]

Grow up

[final frigate]

i watched my friend loc orb and redemp and veng and heal other and all sorts of bs at sote man that raid is not real

[obsidian venture]

it's tech!

[austere mulch]

bloat tech has gone a lil too far when jaggers first started posting entries with the hp regen tickeat, I never thought itd pick up

and it didnt for awhile, but not everyone does it

[thick beacon]

arent the majoirty of those strats just worse overall time? just better for completion?

[austere mulch]

most of them have variations that work for overall rec too

minus any spec manipulation pre-room ofc

i think current overall recs are still running maze tho, which is surprising since npc contact exists

[meager flame]

These often aren’t bots they’re also alts that look like bots even I have accounts for that

And tbf I think content like that is absolute trash

You shouldn’t be able to make fourth accounts that sit afk and produce raw gold that easily

[languid ravine]

theres a guy who does that in revs cos its so easy to escape lol

[ionic tartan]

1. Because they still do whatever they do along the way they boy.

2. Vorkath pumps resources that also end as alchs - dhide, bstaff, magic logs, these are far more harmful.

3. That's as opposed to vorkath bots which are uninterrupted and instanced.

Vorkath is uninterrupted and uncontested (instanced) botting. It can be more than rev bots depending on when a purge happens. It's smart to bot because there's no competition after you get past reqs.

Answer this: Do you really believe bots at places like vork, muspah, or zulrah is so much less impactful than rev bots on the economy that only revs should be removed?

All of that said. You're being naive about botting and ignoring the dishonesty and hypocrisy in your bundle of arguments only for removing revs.

#game-update message

[tacit wharf]

and we all know that if its content where people can set up alts at, those pesky gold sellers are there as well

[bronze kernel]

If we take out the gold farmers and the reason for the demand for it ,then the bot farms will disappear or drop drastically.

[true talon]

Its wild that there is a method to farm moonlight antler bolts which are +60 range str the same as D arrows and no method to actually farm d arrow tips.......

[austere mulch]

Glad we agree that pumping alchables are harmful. Which makes up nearly the entirety of rev drop tables

[minor whale]

That's easy
It's because dragon arrow tips are intended to be valuable and sought after while remaining hard enough to come by that they're a resource you have to choose where to spend it, as the minor dps increase they offer to every bow capable of using them makes it a time efficiency calculation.

Versus the moonlight antler bolts which are 200 gp each and are the only crossbow bolt you'd ever use for a weapon that's already not meta to use anywhere

[austere mulch]

To answer your question, yes, I believe without a doubt that vork bots, mushpah bots, etc. are less impactful to the game than revs by sheer volume alone (as a result of access).

Also, a bot isn't a vorkath bot until its... botting vorkath

[sacred oracle]

Also re dragon arrows, they're simply not balanced around irons, and that's okay.

[meager flame]

ya this isn't even a question it takes an incredibly huge level of intellectual dishonesty to even begin to pretend that revs aren't completely broken with an insane swarm of bots on them 24/7

[true talon]

I will say next DMM the point spread needs to be way better, i shouldnt have only 19k points from getting 1700 total an multiple 99s....... and then 75k from breaches.

[meager flame]

even when jagex does their bot busting stream and they pull out the heatmap showing all the bots on the bot world they move them onto

its just like 2342342423 bots blacking out on revs

and small streams everywhere else

like so many of them you can see them on the map running to revs lol in a constant stream

the fact that jagex leaves them in the game makes me question their motivation

it is that bad

[languid ravine]

okay delete revs and then all the bots move to the next best thing, what did you achieve? nothing

[median wing]

maybe then they can look at the next best thing

[austere mulch]

still achieve the reduction of raw gold entering the game dramatically

[median wing]

well maybe if there is an infinite number of things it wont work

[austere mulch]

also the next best thing that has virtually no reqs is like 20x worse than rev

but still, revs should be replaced with a better system in general

[median wing]

it makes sense to look at the worst offernders for bringing in gold for rwt

all of the pvp bottin sticks out because u have to interact with it directly

it's so annoying seeing all of those low level chin bots

[austere mulch]

the fact that they know its so bad as to acknowledge it in the blog saying "you might as well practice your switches on them" is absolute jokes lmao

[median wing]

i think adding eagles quest requirement was good

i wouldnt be opposed to adding even more barriers of entry to making gp in wild if ur account isn't progressed

[languid ravine]

the biggest incentive for botting is bonds

[languid ravine]

yea this is referred to as rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic

[median wing]

what is sinking in this context?

[kind surge]

second for removing revs tbh

[languid ravine]

the bot problem

[median wing]

it definitely contributed to having less of the normal gold farmers tho

the ones that don't have high tech

[languid ravine]

or instead of gutting content, you could just ban the bots

[median wing]

what about the gold farmers

that click manually on suicide accs

[languid ravine]

if there ever was a design solution to bots/cheaters, it would be to improve the design

[austere mulch]

the issue is that revs have way more issues than just the bots. But because it has basically free access, which is one of those issues, all of the issues are now at scale of the bots

it honestly sounds a lot like conversations around the bp nerf to me. Something that was way too accessible was (probably still is) way too strong, and most of the backlash was "but THIS gear is strong too!"

[vivid ruin]

Lock revs behind max cb ;p

Max cape

[languid ravine]

how are they highly complex bots but also if we slightly inconvenience them they will be stopped?

[austere mulch]

again, the issue with revs is their drop table and their requirements for access

Both should've been addressed years ago

doom bots would be 50x more of a problem if it didnt have any reqs for it

and they are plenty problem as is, given that theyre in an instance

[kind surge]

doom is also completely reliant on the uniques for money

[languid ravine]

so the game cant have any early-mid game content?

[kind surge]

?

[austere mulch]

rev loot table is not appropriate for its accessibility, thats correct

really, its not appropriate in general

but especially for having no reqs

[languid ravine]

okay but how is the solution to delete it and not just improve it?

what does deleting anything achieve

[vivid ruin]

I think itd be fine if risk was higher than it currently is

[austere mulch]

my opinion is that its easier to start from scratch than try to patch up something thats never been implemented in a way that is healthy

thats not to say remove it and go 10 years with nothing

wildy deserves content too

[vivid ruin]

Revs need a destructive force around them to keep it from being easy to farm. Also pushed away from 30 line

[austere mulch]

yeah being back above 30 would help too

[vivid ruin]

Bots wouldnt survive constant damage from a force of sort. Either clans or a boss that deals melee + mage/range damage simultaneously

[austere mulch]

id be cool with reworking the loot table and moving them above the wildy gate tbh. On top of having either a quest or diary requirement to enter

[austere mulch]

this would be cool but then youd hear all the "chip damage" complaints 😭

[vivid ruin]

Eh risk/reward :p

Revs are far too easy and accessible as is and thats no lie

[meager flame]

a reduction in the damage they deal to the game

the longer they have to spend doing methods that either aren't as rewarding or that take them longer to setup is more bots that get banned earlier in their cycle of adding items to the economy

all content is not the same

[austere mulch]

make it like the safari zone where you pay x amount of gp to enter (per entry) and you can go to different zones that are DMM combat bracket based with higher revs in the higher brackets. After your timer ends, you are teleported out 🤣

[vivid ruin]

I think each piece of wildy content should have their own set of reqs. Because if we make all bosses + revs require diaries, bot farm will know to complete diaries = unlocking all of wildy

[austere mulch]

throw the entrance north of rouges castle

[meager flame]

what the wild should have but doesn't have

are huge quest chains

[austere mulch]

for real

[vivid ruin]

Yeah tbh

[austere mulch]

plenty of lore to spacebar through

running out of wildy after doing the lost city boss is an iconic memory

just dont put dialouge heavy sections in areas where you can get ragged and its prob alright

[meager flame]

like their biggest failure with the wild is that they keep treating it as if its not part of the game

it doesn't have the same standards and it should

[vivid ruin]

Yup

They should delete all tps from 30/20 line, add a few more safe zones throughout the wild. Add more building structure. Add more quests. Add a few more roaming bosses or rev armies or something

Lock most profitable content behind diaries and quests

[ember token]

corp quest when

[vivid ruin]

Surely theres a story behind revs. They remind me of the ghosts from lord of the rings

[meager flame]

the real story is shit we deleted players from the wild how do we make this place dangerous

lmao thats why they were made originally

and they wandered around and were semi scary npcs

for some reason in osrs they're purpose built bot farms

[vivid ruin]

I remember running through wildy and being scared if one was chasing me lol

[meager flame]

its always sort of bugged me that the wilderness is thematically one of the coolest locations in the game but they do absolutely nothing with it

[ember token]

the revenant lore is self evident, theyre ghosts of creatures that died in the god wars

[vivid ruin]

https://tenor.com/view/what-say-you-gif-20369723

Yeah thats why they remind me of these guys

They need quests and a storyline with gwd in wildy

[ember token]

the wildy gwd is something like

earthquake caused some cracks and crevices to open up, one connecting to the gwd, so some of the fighting moved over to it

kinda the explanation they gave for most of the wildy rejuvenation update

fountain of rune, emerged from the ground after an earthquake

[obsidian venture]

Would just re-work the entire wildy again. Can keep the good parts and focus on adding actual meaningful requirements so it benefits the players and hinders botting

Trying to build on something that's so old and doesn't have a good base to work on is not it

[ember token]

i would go further to say that it needs not to be reworked but rather remade

hotspots can be placed with intent rather than just slapping things wherever

[kind surge]

the one jmod proposal for the deep wildy expansion was really cool

[ember token]

adjust the wilderness levels system, maybe make it so instead of the level increasing the deeper you go, it instead increases the further you get to the center

[kind surge]

apparently there was also supposed to be a quest at the safe zone there that introduces pvp basics against npc pkers

[obsidian venture]

yeah

[ember token]

all/most the best content can go around the center and it’s a hotspot, PKers won’t have to run around as much to check locations and they’ll be more likely to run into other PKers

[ember grove]

they exist like this because initially jed wanted to give RoT more money for no reqs and then they've been slowly changed and changed and become the nonsense we have now

[lone flare]

Whatever. Let's just get revs to return asap - there was never a more lively and more importantly FUN multi hotspot

the moment it went away we got stuck with chaos altar... going on 6 years

[floral blaze]

Multi revs would be a good start but the current proposal needs more work

[analog crow]

100%.
In general stop treating content like some untouchable holy cow just because it's old.

[high lantern]

Ok hear me out...

3rd age is literally useless set and there isnt a place where you can even flex it rly so i have a propose..

Make it that u can transmog bis items like ancestral hat with 3rd age mage hat to make transmogged 3rd age ancestral hat etc.

Torva, ancestral, masouri. Make 3rd age flexable item again!

[still sundial]

that's more for #1022203837265756231 than here, also the playerbase generally doesn't like transmogs that replace 1 item with another

[high lantern]

sry ill swap it there 🙂

[fringe mist]

Jagex should make rev bots that have dynamic fighting strategies at the lower to mid tier skill level as fodder for pkers. It’s like Fortnite adding bots to pad their game mode lobbies

Ever wonder why the shitty LMS bots hardly fight back? They can do a bit better i think

[hot wraith]

wtf is this cow boss thing about

[analog crow]

It's a new boss that's a cow in Lumbridge

coming soon

[vivid ruin]

Its a new boss that targets noobs and will be farmed by maxed accs until pets are acquired

[quiet plank]

I'm pretty sure it's going to be like specifically f2p cuz any members can outstat it in a few hours by doing waterfall quest and whatnot

And then at that point you'd just go for dragon defender instead of it's new offhand thing

[restive siren]

plenty of members will still farm it for clogs

but yeah target audience is f2p

slash turbo early game accounts

[quiet plank]

I hope it has SOME mechanics. I could see it being scurrius but without needing prayer

And not straight up annoying mechanics like shellbane gryphon got

[meager flame]

Tbh I think the real target is a fraction of a fraction of players

It’s not just for new players

It’s for new players not looking up help online or being shown what to do by someone who already knows

Most people will just skip right past it unless it turns out to be so good all of the guides tell you to go kill it when they inevitably seek direction online

[still sundial]

I expect it won't require protection prayers at all, teaching that is scurrius' job. probably focus on movement during combat and possibly gear switching

even gear switching might be too much and is more covered by twin titans

[vivid ruin]

Were those streamers who tested the boss in max gear

[bronze kernel]

Scurrius covers the movement part too. Although very possible it could focus on something like the fire box prison at GG. It's a cow/bull boss. I am expecting something like it headbutting you to knock you back, and then you have to step away as it's charging at you.

Or maybe even something like Sol for babies

[eager stream]

Zebak waves, but waves of milk instead of water

[merry finch]

I'm happy f2p is getting some content, especially bossing content. I'm also a big fan of any content that helps you learn mechanics by yourself instead of by watching someone else play the game. I'm glad jagex is leaning towards self-containment instead of "just go watch a YouTube video". Also, cow shoes.

[static trench]

They have made a hard mode cow version aswell tht is app harder then awakened levi.

[blissful topaz]

when are we getting left click bury bone ground object option

[restive pelican]

I can't find anything about this cow boss did they release unique drop?

[tacit wharf]

winter summit was when they dropped info about it

[quaint verge]

any chances you guys could use @time funcionality that discord recently added where posting times?

[static trench]

It was on winter summit, it's a 2 hit f2p boss with an awakened variant for members, all the streamers like boaty oda solo couldn't beat it when they was there doing there event or w/e, should be fun.

[static trench]

It's a pet some janky defender and slippers and a infinite milk bucket 🪣

[loud elm]

Every server announcement is a bait for the Leagues release date 😵‍💫

[tacit wharf]

?

its the first or 2nd wed of april

[somber marsh]

[wooden harbor]

i think woulda been cool if the awakened variant was also accessible by f2p since purpose of the boss is to introduce new people earlier to osrs combat complexity 😄
iirc most loot from cow boss is already not accessible to f2p or something

[restive siren]

if you put a new player in front of awakened cow they are more likely to quit than be encouraged by that lmao

imagine someone with a rune scim and 60 combats being 360 noscoped by awakened vard

[wooden harbor]

it's an optional boss though?

i dont think there'd be any incentive to do it other than curiousity :O

[restive siren]

i think putting anything in front of a new player that they not only have zero capacity to understand but also zero capacity to beat is unfun and not encouraging whatsoever

[wooden harbor]

but they dont have to beat it. they dont get anything out of beating it other than the flex of having beat it.
which is a self imposed challenge. i dont see why you would want to quit on failing a self imposed challenge haha

[fossil epoch]

Please jagex, release the date of the league this week, need to book time off 🙁

[wooden harbor]

the angle im coming from is, when most people that are unfamiliar with the game's pvm hear about pvm. The first thing that comes to mind is just point click and wait for thing to die while eating food.
I imagine the cow boss already probably adds movement requirement to it so that's nice. But imagine if people were actually able to see what endgame pvm feels like that early, that might be a good hook too 😄

[restive siren]

Ofc they dont have to beat it but they also have no idea if its supposed to be beatable or what its purpose is since they are new players yknow. If i play a game and the game gives me a boss im expecting that there is at least a possibility i beat it, anything else would be ridiculous. Jagex shouldnt put content in front of your nose which has a 0% chance of you completing that content.

[restive siren]

A new player will not be able to see what endgame pvm feels like because they would die in 3 seconds

[wooden harbor]

but thats a glimpse into it

[restive siren]

The normal cow should give that experience of a boss actually having some mechanics

[wooden harbor]

we already have such bosses that are technically accessible the moment you start and get a bond/membership lol

it also doesnt need to be shoved in anyones face since it doesnt contribute to any progression

[wooden harbor]

maybe... but i imagine its a level below scurrius which is probably nothing haha

[restive siren]

In my experience if you show someone high end osrs content (or coming from playing wow, high end wow pvm) they dont think "wow this is so cool i wanna do that" they say "yeah i have no fucking clue whats even happening" and are either completely apathic to said content or actively turned off

[wooden harbor]

a few levels*

[wooden harbor]

i think a lot of that is because there's a lot more going on. like they probably dont know what different things in that person's inventory is for, etc.
when its just a better telegraphed fight that's easier to see whats going on, its probably a different experience.

regardless i think if something is not a part of progression and not shoved down on people forcibly... it doesnt matter if something complex is out there for those willing to test the waters.

[restive siren]

I dont think im getting my point across well enough

The awakened cow will be ridiculuous even for members standards

They said hardest boss in the game

[austere mulch]

If enraged boss is equal to awakened leviathan like arcane said, it might not be feasible to complete with ftp items and resources

[wooden harbor]

i feel like your point is based on people feeling forced to do the boss though, is it not?

[austere mulch]

No prayer pots is the most obvious thing

So why release something that effectively, potentially, can’t be completed

I guess some players would feel more inclined to get a membership to be able to do it as a best case scenario

[restive siren]

Its not "something complex to test out". Its designed for the best of the best in absolute bis gear, people would hate that being put into f2p. Im not against more challenging things than cow in f2p so people can see what pvm actually feels like. Cow just wouldnt achieve that at all since it would 1 tick you every time f2p players tried

[austere mulch]

More likely I think it’d lead to frustration

[restive siren]

no it really isnt

[vivid ruin]

Imagine cow being hardest boss in game lol

[wooden harbor]

hmm thats true, it would probably not be doable at all haha
i forget f2p dont have prayer pots

[restive siren]

im gonna say i doubt a single f2p player could kill that even if prayer pots were a thing

which is my point

[wooden harbor]

also i doubt its gonna require bis gear
currently we have awakened levi and vard which are believed to have pretty much maxed out the combat complexity of osrs. i genuinely dont think cow boss is topping that.. probably on a similar level.

and we have had budget awakened levi and vard kills already too by the sweatiest people haha

[restive siren]

you have two different possibilities of people encountering that boss in f2p. 1) they click hard mode, get oneshot, never try again. These people didnt learn anything, didnt think that was cool or fun or see a point in it. 2) they get oneshot but decide to try to kill that boss, sinking hours and hours into it and still failing. They dont think that was a fun experience either

[wooden harbor]

theres more possibilities

a ton more 😄

wild to assume thats the only 2

[restive siren]

i dont think vard or levi are even close to maxed out combat complexity

and yes there are budget variants

[wooden harbor]

they quite literally are. you're doing so much actions per tick in both of them 👀

[restive siren]

but one thing you have to understand is that peoplle who did turbo budget/low stats levi and vard have done extremely hard content for thousands of hours in members before doing that

a f2p player has not a single minute of that

[restive siren]

no

[wooden harbor]

prayer switching, moving, attacking and reacting in a single tick at times

[restive siren]

vard has you do 2 actions per tick every like 10-20 ticks, sometimes even rarer. Levi is the same, you can always move on ticks where there is the same prayer twice in a row

you can crank that up 10x if jagex wanted to

[wooden harbor]

"when there is same prayer twice in a row"
i hope you see the issue in this sentence

[restive siren]

not saying they will

[restive siren]

i mean show me a kill that alternates in enrage for a minute, it doesnt happen. so its similar to vard where you only need to do 2 actions a tick every like 10-20 ticks

[wooden harbor]

having done 200 levi attempts before getting my kc, i can assure you it happens a lot

[restive siren]

anyways this is getting offtopic

mhm

[wooden harbor]

i mean not a minute but the duration of the enrage yes

enrage doesnt last a minute with ww spec

but even like 5 seconds of alternating is gonna get you killed if you're not switching prayers and moving same tick because tornado

[restive siren]

yeah and doing two actions a tick 3-4 times during a kill can be expected to be achievable by a human being and these bosses are still considered crazy hard

jagex could easily design a boss that requires you to do that every tick for 2 minutes straight

thats not even the same universe

[wooden harbor]

its 2 actions but a lot more thinking/reacting as well though.. like not clicking on the bad tiles and pathing into its melee range.
so its not exactly 2 actions

also i dont think making people do the same complex thing longer adds to the mechanical complexity of the content. I was talking about the mechanical complexity of the content being pretty much capped out with awakened levi and vard

i dont think think there's more actions you could add to a tick than what we already have in levi and vard

[restive siren]

clicking on the correct tile is kind of a given in the movement part imo yeah

and well in theory you can also design content with 3 actions per tick

[wooden harbor]

do you think they'll add a requirement to tick eat while moving and prayer switching? 😄

thats the only action i can think of

[restive siren]

gear switches are an easy one

i dont necessarily think so no

my whole point is that vard and levi are nowhere near the cap of whats theoretically possible

see people doing inferno wr speeds or 27 levis in one inventory

in theory you can easily design content that requires you to play that well, not only it being a self imposed one

[wooden harbor]

but thats just something youre not usually forced to do
gear switches arent punished :o

would be weird if a boss punished not gear switching

[restive siren]

well usually

[wooden harbor]

i guess the Sol armour/gear removal could be added as another action in a tick

[restive siren]

again my point, there is plenty of design space left

anyways back on topic i think if you put awakened vard in front of f2p players and they dont even get the boss below 90% hp even after 100 tries i dont think thats a positive for those players. There might be a tiny handful of people who think thats cool and feel encouraged but i dont think that outweighs the thousands of players getting no fun or motivation from that at all. Like why give them a boss thats not even beatable, thats just tilting for no reason. We will probably not agree on that and thats fine too, ill just say there is a reason why basically zero games ever do that

[wooden harbor]

but what if it is beatable?
and again there'd be no incentive to beat it so you could just give up on it and play the rest of the game :O

pvming is not for everyone in osrs anyway
a whole bunch of people play only for skilling and some only for merching... it is what it is haha

its pretty much kinda what some souls games have done
you go in and you're likely to die in a few seconds and try 100s of times before beating it. but almost everything is beatable without any gear requirements

and we know for sure how popular souls games are 😄
(im not a big enjoyer of them but people love it for some reason)

[restive siren]

yes you could just give up and people will give up, my point is that thtat process still does more harm than good to the majority of players. when getting your head kicked in by something you cannot even understand most players reaction is not "oh hey that was cool i cant wait to dip my toes in further"

hencewhy dark souls games, while awesome, are also very niche

and the first bosses you encounter in those games kick your head in while being deisgned to be beaten by a new player lol

cow will be hard for people having thousands of hours of endgame pvm experience

[wooden harbor]

are they niche?
i feel like they were probably the most popular game genre a couple years ago aroudn elden ring.... and suddenly every other new popular game was a souls-like 😄

[restive siren]

its not comparable

ofc they are niche

[wooden harbor]

hmm i dont think they fit the definition of niche anymore :o

[restive siren]

think the best selling one was elden ring with like 30m copies? thats a drop in the water in the gaming market that encompasses 1b++ players in the world

anyways offtopic again, ill leave it here

was nice chatting though, we will find out how hard it is in a week 🙂

[wooden harbor]

by that definition every game is niche 😄

[hard axle]

It's 60 hp. You can hit a 24 with rune scimitar no prayer iirc

I doubt it'll stay alive that long imo

[restive siren]

is the 60hp thing actually true or is that headcannon from the community

either way if its aimed at lvl 20-30 players thats fine

[final frigate]

Surely reduced damage taken or something so it doesn't just get 1 tapped

If it's supposed to be actual content

[wooden harbor]

think it was mentioned by mod arcane in sae bae podcast

[wooden harbor]

they said pbs would be 2 ticks lol

so definitely expecting 1 shots with max gear

[final frigate]

Damn

1 tick hit 1 tick animation lmao

[wooden harbor]

ya

[sleek zodiac]

Not sure if this is the right place to ask, but has anyone noticed that the ‘empty containers’ button doesn’t empty the seed box? Is this a bug?

[minor whale]

It's something they are aware of but are seeing feedback on if people want it to be something emptied, but yeah it's intentional

[tacit wharf]

rather it didnt

[sleek zodiac]

Ahh thought I was going mad! Cheers

[hard axle]

Arcane said it on podcast

Not much time for mechanics

[minor whale]

But you haven't heard the best part!
An extremely hard variant that (since it wasn't polled) will likely just have solely cosmetic rewards!
Endgamers are eating!!!

Actually even Blood Torva was polled right

And Radiant Oathplate

So it might not even have any rewards worth doing yahoooo

[wooden harbor]

ye the designs were

i dont think the concept of them existing was polled though

[reef laurel]

Hi. Just wanted to throw out my feedback on this year's DMM as someone who avidly played both this DMM and last year's DMM.

1. Please make breaches more spread apart and "doable." Monsters dying in less than 3 ticks with so many players on the screen that nothing will load is absolutely frustrating. Feels like a waste of 15 minutes. There are maybe 2 breach spots that are actually enjoyable, one of them being southern kandarin as the breach is genuinely so spread that any and all players have a realistic chance of receiving decent points and MVP points from the breach. You can fairy ring yanille, go gnome village (left or right maze), north of yanille, there are genuinely so many options.

2. Please remove the ability to scout players at the grand exchange via ignore list and entity hider. This has been a major issue this DMM. PKers will scout at the GE, entity hide and ignore list a player, and then they only see 10-15 people the whole breach they've selectively picked to target and go after. This is frustrating as a player risking bank during a breach and trying to utilize player stacks to hide themselves but it being unaffective. I don't mind if someone genuinely finds me in the stack of a hundred players and kills me but being instantly targetted with 500 players on screen is monka.

3. Please, for the love of god... Make it so that you can only PVP players within a gold threshold of your own. This isn't an issue so much now, but at the start of DMM people were xfering or streamers were getting donations and they were camping grey and dark red skulls with a red skull. This is a major issue, and should not be part of the game mode. If these players actually worked for their items or PKed them I wouldn't mind. But most of them bought their items via xfer or got for free via donations.

4. Take a stance on xferring. So many xfer scams happen on league start and so many people just xfer their gold and don't even play the game.

[wooden harbor]

wdym by taking a stance on xferring?
they've clearly permitted it, no?

[reef laurel]

Also I think there was plugin abuse going on this DMM, I have not had a runelite crash in 5 years of playing but every time the player "Pi nk clay" appeared on my screen while I was red skulled I would instantly crash and log back into losing 50m and be at the grand exchange.

[reef laurel]

Yeah I mean moreso in reference to point 3 if you're going to allow xferring then set gold thresholds on PvP availability because it's a bit ridiculous when Andy on day 1 has full zuriels and morrigans with <2 hours played and no engagement in breaches, raids, PvM, etc.

[tacit wharf]

1. breachs were doable and a huge amount of points, though i do feel they should pick some better locations

2. tis the way of life, dont risk what u dont wanna lose

3. no its a pvp game mode, dont bring what u dont wanna risk and if you dont wanna die than stay in the bank

4. its a use at yr own risk on x-fers and its near impossible to enforce not allowing it

[wooden harbor]

runelite was crashing regardless i think
saw many streamers and myself crash a ton of times the first couple days

and i dont think i ever got pked the 3 or 4 times my rl crashed mid breach.

[floral blaze]

RL crashed a ton for me as well

[tacit wharf]

my own hunk of junk handled it just fine

[wooden harbor]

i do agree xferring is a huge issue in dmm and makes it less enjoyable.
this might be a longshot but i imagine stopping trades and only letting people use GE would be nice to remove xferring to some extent.

there may be some downsides to blocking trade but im not sure if that outweighs this

[tacit wharf]

?

u just killthe person for the money then

[minor whale]

To reply to all of your points
1.) Breaches are incredibly good points and after the week-1 fix to player damage, they were the primary source of points for most people. Every breach I did was between 4-6k points in just a rune crossbow.

2.) Unfortunately there's no real way to counter this, if you risk a lot you're going to stick out. Most of the high end pvpers who streamed it weren't using any sort of client to benefit from this and it's VERY easy to see who is risking high amounts.

3.) The whole point of dmm is that it's dangerous for everyone, almost everywhere, at all times.

4.) Jagex explicitly allows swapping and states it's at-your-own risk

Blocking trade in DMM would kill DMM

[wooden harbor]

are you serious haha

[wooden harbor]

how come

[minor whale]

If you remove trading from DMM are you also removing looting people you kill?

[wooden harbor]

no

[minor whale]

So I can walk outside with 50m dmm gp and get killed for it and oh hey my friend in main game is giving me some gp at the same time how convenient

[wooden harbor]

i guess people would trade by dying instead haha
but also more risky

[minor whale]

It's meant to be a pvp, high-stakes, few rules gamemode

[tacit wharf]

indeed making it even more risky for no reason to the avg player

[wooden harbor]

xfers just makes the experience kinda ass

[minor whale]

People who risk an absolute shitload at all times killing greyskulls can get 2 hit by Morrigan's axes by a bronze skuller

[reef laurel]

1. wrong. They were a lot of points yes. I've done every single breach on 7 different accounts, I maxed 3k points ancient camping and 8k points with scythe. Died 95% of the time with scythe.
2. if this is what you truly believe that a plugin and default game functions can be abused to scout players then you're on the wrong side.
3. it's not about losing gold, it's about wasting time and losing time. if I have a grey skull and Andy who xferred 30m for 300m while I'm on lap 2 of the agility pyramid comes and kills me that's clearly an issue it's not fun and it's the reason why 90% of DMM players don't even play the first week or quit after a few days.
4. not impossible to enforce, nothing is impossible that is a horrible attitude to have. it's just hard to verify whether someone was actually scammed or not but I think the bigger issue with xfering is that the question of "do you want your players to play the game or not?" if you explicitly allow xfering and then allow the playerbase to take xferred gold and pk with it on literal noobs you are promoting people to not even play the game.

[reef laurel]

also wrong

no one risking that much is that bad

[minor whale]

Is this bait

Because it literally happened to multiple streamers lmao

[tacit wharf]

.... u risk a scythe, expecting someone not to kill you for it

gotta be bait

[minor whale]

The Morrigan's Javs can do 75 damage per hit and 4 ticks between

And if you're risking a fucking megarare 5m+ weapon you're going to be targeted

[minor whale]

This was the most played dmm by a ton, with breaches still getting tens of thousands of players across the worlds
It's in the last few days and most people are point capped, of course you'll get less players over time on a short temporary gamemode.

Also if you were only getting that many points in absolute max gear something is wrong lmao

[wooden harbor]

friend have you heard of combo eating?
also youre assuming youre maxing each hit which is rare lol

[minor whale]

If I can get 6k points a breach using an rcb, you should be absolutely zooming with better gear.

[minor whale]

Yes, but saying it's impossible or can't happen is wrong, because multiple streamers were taken out in bank fights by exactly this

[tacit wharf]

if i can be getting 1.6k pts a breach in b1 w/o thralls and 40 def, u doing something wrong with only getting 3k

[minor whale]

You can always fight back in whatever shit gear you have

[reef laurel]

this is the second dmm sir you act like there have been 10 of them.
i think you are speaking out of your ass yapping so i will not engage further.
i actually printed purples into the economy and played the gamemode as a whole but I would like to see your stats i guess since you have such a hard stance.

[minor whale]

Oda died to a guy risking 300k the other day

[minor whale]

Brother

WHAT

[reef laurel]

I highly doubt you ever got 6k breach points per breach with an rcb

[minor whale]

There's been like 25 of them

[reef laurel]

unless it was a dead breach

[minor whale]

2nd DMM 😭

[reef laurel]

or a spread apart breach

[tacit wharf]

6k a breach is pretty easy

with thrall and sigil

regardless of the rest of yr gear

[minor whale]

This is the 20th DMM since launch

[wooden harbor]

thats just false lmao

[reef laurel]

but if you genuinely want me to believe that you got 6k points at an ortus farm breach you are beyond lost

[tacit wharf]

its not

[minor whale]

RCB + thralls is easy as shit to get 6k points

If you're saying it's not, you're just not doing very well at breaches and that's ok

[wooden harbor]

i was running around with shadow and some other gear and getting 3k pts max if not interrupted 😂

you must be getting some spooned breach locations

[tacit wharf]

..

[reef laurel]

So, let me just do the math for you since you are very deadset on this

[tacit wharf]

plz do

[restive siren]

some people are just gooderer at the game than others, this discussion is so pointless

[minor whale]

Trusting the math of a guy who says there were 2 dmms ever

Okiedokie

[wooden harbor]

theres nothing good about clicking a boss first tick and rolling a random big number :)

[tacit wharf]

plz show math too

[wooden harbor]

since everything dies within 5 seconds

[minor whale]

If you're risking more in breaches more people are going to interrupt you, and you're probably running around like crazy between spawn locations which is terrible for points

Not using thralls, not using the meta breach sigils

Not going to multi breaches when the singles breaches aren't optimal

[reef laurel]

You have around 325 potential RCB hits over the course of a breach, and what? an average hit of like 25? with rcb. So your theoretical cap for points is like 7.5k and that's assuming every shot you fire lands and gives points and that you received contribution which is unlikely.

[tacit wharf]

sitting in the middle of everyone, also negative breach points

[minor whale]

There's a TON of things you can do to optimize points

[reef laurel]

Also assumes no downtime at all

Which again is unlikely

[tacit wharf]

15 points per thrall hit

[wooden harbor]

shit dies before the thrall gets more than a hit on it

and its not 15 points, thralls can hit 1s still

[reef laurel]

I would give you 750m osrs to see you get 7k breach points at an ortus farm breach with an rcb and 600 players online DM me the clip I am true to my word

[tacit wharf]

then yr in the wrong location

[minor whale]

375 hits since 4 tick rcb, plus thralls do ~15 per hit

[tacit wharf]

stop sitting in the middle of 1k players

[reef laurel]

this is my fucking point did you even read what I said

[tacit wharf]

then dont be there

[reef laurel]

there are like 2 breach locations where you don't have to do this

and all other breach locations

you have to do this

[tacit wharf]

no no no

[reef laurel]

because the spawn radius is so small

[minor whale]

No there absolutely is not you are delusional

[wooden harbor]

my guy theres no spots unless you were spooned some good breach and found a spot lol
every spot is filled 😂

[reef laurel]

and there's 600 people there

[tacit wharf]

im not talking about different locations

[minor whale]

The spawn radius is huge???

[tacit wharf]

im talking about at the breach, being not in the middle of it

[minor whale]

What are you TALKING about lmao

[wooden harbor]

doesnt matter, theres way too many players lmao

[reef laurel]

ortus farm breach is about a 50 tile by 50 tile breach

stg

u didnt even play

nor do breaches

and have an opinion

I effectively did like 150 breaches

across all accounts

[minor whale]

Did you know the spawn radius for "Eastern Kourend" is literally this

[reef laurel]

so

idk what ur on about

[reef laurel]

hence my point

[minor whale]

There's a #dmm-annihilation channel

[reef laurel]

of there being like 2 breaches

[wooden harbor]

the only breach i found with a good spot was the one south of ardy.
you got the spot if u didnt do fight arena and then there's a spot inside the gnome maze

[reef laurel]

that are good

LOL

[minor whale]

Go hang out in there and talk about it

And see how everyone in there says you're wrong

[tacit wharf]

[minor whale]

If you're in absolutely insane gear talking about getting shit points that is 100% a you-problem

lmfao

[tacit wharf]

seems upset

[restive siren]

lil crashout

[minor whale]

Me click role color that means me point bad

[restive siren]

yeah how dare you click on the sailing role

elitist smh

[minor whale]

You did bad math, ignored multiple factors, and also think this is the 2nd ever DMM

Your points are just shit

[dire mango]

noob

[wooden harbor]

i think u did bad math

15 per hit is a wild thing to assume

[tacit wharf]

thralls were very accurate

[wooden harbor]

no shot u said that

what does accuracy have to do with hitting 15s my guy

[minor whale]

7.5 is the average hit from a thrall

And 100% accuracy

[wooden harbor]

correct

[reef laurel]

yes but you forget that thralls have a distance and that the only breach monsters that spawn on top of each other are in the center of a breach also this doesn't factor in LOS from trees, etc.
i would estimate that thralls have over a 50% downtime

also again

projectile travel time

if shit dies in 3 ticks

the only people getting kill contribution are melee

[wooden harbor]

thralls literally only get one hit in

[reef laurel]

but you can't take melee or ranged only to breaches as a lot of the bosses are ma2 bosses

[minor whale]

Wat

[tacit wharf]

as someone who stayed in b1, there was infact a huge number of bosses that did not die in 3 ticks

and that was the highest pop worlds

[wooden harbor]

must be a b1 thing

[minor whale]

They're 3/43 monsters at a breach

That's not anywhere close to a majority and all bosses have equal spawn chances

You see them more often because they live longer because mage sucks for breaches and less people use it

[reef laurel]

of course, you were in bracket 1, that's a diff story. i mean do i need to send a clip of the breach I just did where everything died in 3 ticks, was unclickable, visually bugging out, and it's either A) pray that your projectile actually lands and you get points before it dies or B) bring melee for instant damage but have over half of the breach as downtime from running around

[tacit wharf]

sure

send away

[reef laurel]

I think you are watching too much boaty, and correlating boaty's success with breaches to your own. When the fact is that boaty barely even gets targetted because he's a friendly streamer.

[obsidian venture]

Legendary crashout

[tacit wharf]

so we can tell you again to stop sitting in the middle of everyone at the breach

and listen to you getting 0 points with yr scythe and shadow

[obsidian venture]

I haven’t played dmm so I don’t have much to add besides, it’s a PvP gamemode so people will pk. Good luck

[wooden harbor]

ace i dont think you have a say when you just stated you were staying in b1

lacks experience

[tacit wharf]

i got my points, i knew why i was getting low points, and im ok with that

[obsidian venture]

Most streamers I watched always aggroed scythe unless a pker was in similar risk

[tacit wharf]

b1 was fun

[obsidian venture]

Dino lost a bl (whatever it actually is) to a naked guy with a morrigan javelin at a bank

[wooden harbor]

sure it probably was, not questioning that.
jsut saying your experience was entirely different than people in higher brackets lol

[tacit wharf]

yr right it was, i had much more competition for my points

of course u do, everyone things that when they write out a paragraph

[wooden harbor]

idk about that chief
b1 had way more worlds too

[tacit wharf]

and they still have 4x the amount of people per world

[wooden harbor]

so wrong lol

ill let you have your copium buddy

[true talon]

B1 is best bracket, I only moved up to b2 so I could hit harder on people with ruinous prayers. They didn’t add a skilling xp multiplier from moving up, so staying in the low brackets was best.

The biggest issue with DMM was logging in for only breaches was the best way to play. I got 94k points and 75k was from breaches despite being almost 1700 total lvl

[minor whale]

Handshake emoji

The only thing "wrong" with the DMM is that breaches were waaaay too good and ragging was way easier since you didn't lose your bank

So many kills running around with basically 0 risk killing green skulls who had no idea how to fight back

And even if I did come across someone with thumbs oh no I lost 30k

The bank key thing was probably the most annoying
It meant pvp meant less for the pker but more people rag with no risk

[true talon]

Wrong, bank key change was only reason the mode didn’t die after 2 days. Most people muled anyways during keys or stocked it full of high ge value items with no actual value.

[wooden harbor]

bank key change is the reason why this dmm was as populated

[chrome lantern]

I’ve played multiple accounts this dmm for over 120k damage at breaches and even before breach point changes I was getting like 8k points a breach until I hit cap, with just an rcb, thrall sigil, and some really rag gear. Yes, I agree a ton of the breach spawns are awful but there’s 4 or 5 of them that are also really really good and I just hop for those

[true talon]

I for one loved the no bank keys, it allowed me to stockpile pk gear and not care if I died. I could gear back up and set back out.

[minor whale]

And I think it was a net negative
More players doesn't always mean that it's better for the people who enjoy it
It got more people to play since there was far less risk to do anything, but it meant the pvp aspect was severely nerfed

[chrome lantern]

Especially with how points and breaches worked, the people that were heavily PKing fell behind on gear and sigils

Early on

[minor whale]

Like it rewards no points and meant when you did get a pk, most of the time it was fairly cheap

Yup

[true talon]

The PvP aspect was not nerfed, the hunting defenseless players who don’t know the game mode was nerfed.

[minor whale]

If you pked early on past just getting some early coins from easy kills you fell behind points wise

Nah even as someone who was fighting pkers

You used to kill a pker and you'd get some crazy shit

Now you'd get the same gear you had on usually

[true talon]

The problem was they needed a point system from PvP damage that capped daily or even shared damage with breaches

[minor whale]

Sharing with breaches could have been solid

[true talon]

To encourage more PvP

[chrome lantern]

Last DMM the pkers would pk and buy sigils

[wooden harbor]

people would just farm that with alts and shit no?

[minor whale]

But as it stood, pking was literally a negative to do except for when you already capped breach points that day

[chrome lantern]

Yeah that’s exactly why it didn’t happen that way

[minor whale]

Pvp means no points which means you ramp up much slower even if you had gp

[true talon]

Doesn’t matter, it just gives you an alternative to going to breeches as it would share.

[minor whale]

If you pvp at a breach without being capped you were gimping yourself

[chrome lantern]

No, it would just encourage capping the PvP points with alts then doing breaches for points and would punish solo players/non-alters/exploiters

[true talon]

Why does it matter if people boost their points by pvping or going to the breaches

[minor whale]

Like even Oda was doing pvp early on and stopped because it was making him lag behind

Until he got some better sigils and could do it freely

[true talon]

Yes you needed way to many points for sigils and quests

I got 1700 total and did some bossing and it scored me a total of 19k points

[chrome lantern]

Because you can't alt or boost breach points xd

[minor whale]

Yeah the quests one was asinine and the boss points you got were absolutely silly for some of them lmao

[chrome lantern]

I'm not defending the breach meta

But PvP points would be worse

[wooden harbor]

maybe if they made the pvp points shared with breaches and also only earnable in the breach zone and time 😄

[chrome lantern]

That would be more reasonable sure

[true talon]

Not t only was the quest ones shit, but you was expected to do dt2 and other high end quests lol.

Exp on some skills was to bad and the points from skilling was bad

[minor whale]

Just go through the boss list for points and look at how stupid some of them are

[true talon]

To many points baked into safe zone bossing and clue scrolls combat achievements

[wooden harbor]

yeah that was a crazy decision not allowing sote or dt2 to be lamped 💀

[true talon]

25 points per hespori lol

[minor whale]

And you got soooo many hespori seeds and it instantly grew

[true talon]

Also I discovered this early this on, but if you logout for any reason even outside of the wildy, you’d lose 10 laps off your wildy agility streak

[minor whale]

LOL

[true talon]

So if you was doing that for money, you’d lose your streak if you went hoping around or pking

[minor whale]

I think it's jank code

The whole world is Wildy technically

Since everywhere has attack options and you can use looting bag anywhere

[wooden harbor]

you dont just lose your streak entirely when u leave the course?

[true talon]

Nope that was a change they made

[wooden harbor]

huh interesting

[true talon]

You also don’t lose the 150k if you die

So I was suicide agility running on an alt while skilling

Banking every 10 laps or so

[wooden harbor]

thats what most of dmm felt to me having not done dmm before
much less polished and probably much lower budget than leagues 😄

[minor whale]

Which is depressing when it's older than Leagues

[true talon]

But hey I got 94k points and I think this dmm was most active and fun.

[minor whale]

They put no effort into PVP gameplay across main or temp modes

[true talon]

I even killed multiple max people by dds rushing them to it my 99 str and ruinous powers able to spec 41-41

[merry finch]

Is it a known bug that you can't right click enchant a partially charged teleport crystal on Eluned

[blissful topaz]

when is left click bury bones ground option coming

[hoary pike]

uhm jagex my boat is frozen at sea since update O.O, it fixed itself after a couple minutes, very strange, I couldn't even command my crew

[lament ridge]

Idk if this is something that is known. Crystal implings supposedly spawn at :00 and :30 every hour, and become visible 5 minutes later. Do things like the maintenance downtime mess with this?

Probably just getting unlucky for a bit but curious

[meager flame]

"There was feedback around the kisten’s reliability in its intended matchups. Based on that, we’ve made a small adjustment to its accuracy without changing its overall role or pushing it into raid-reward territory:"

where was this logic when we made zcb, burning claws and vw

seems like that ship has sailed lol

[chrome lantern]

Did anyone @true talon yet

[restive siren]

kinda just shadowdropped that in there

lol

[quaint oar]

I'm more happy about blood vials outside of tob

For pots

[chrome lantern]

I can’t wait to see the Culinaromancer’s chest bought out of flour for the next 5 billion years

[fringe rivet]

Mass flour production update next?

[compact flicker]

finally

Still gotta camp vork for bolts I guess

[fringe rivet]

In the meantime you can buy bread

[chrome lantern]

Where are you seeing that? Or do you mean the clotted blood on it

ok tbf I thought the shop stocks were like 5 on those

That’s less bad than I thought it is

[fringe rivet]

I don't blame you

who buys bread?

[chrome lantern]

Me in 20 minutes

[fringe rivet]

there's like, 2 times in osrs where you need it

[chrome lantern]

Jk not yet at least

[fringe rivet]

one for that sandwich quest, and the other for King's Arthur's thingy

huh, I was wrong, there's more

[chrome lantern]

Yeah I knew it was at least 5 quests

[meager flame]

i mean hopefully thats not a typo it would be great to finally actually have an activity worth doing to get ammo rather than it just being a side bonus to whatever it is you were really doing

replacing amethyst with something potentially more fun sounds good to me

[chrome lantern]

Why would it be a typo

[ruby geode]

Is there something im missing for this new weapon? Im voting no on this second iteration.
Youre gonna defense spec two of their suggested monsters, and not bring additional risk to vetion.
Where is it supposed to shine to be worth adding to the game?

[meager flame]

they've never once given any indication of wanting people to be able to do that

and then it just randomly appeared lol

[rich parrot]

It's a claw but when the monster is weak to crush

It's bis in crush encounters

It's pretty straightforward

[chrome lantern]

I don’t see how you could type it on accident though

Like that’s far past a miscommunication or rogue jmod

[ruby geode]

I doubt the damage it offers out performs a nearly guaranteed 30-35% defense reduction

[meager flame]

maybe they meant to say seeker arrows and just defaulted to dragon arrows

or something like that

[ruby geode]

At 50% spec at that

[chrome lantern]

No because they already talk about clotted blood in the same line

Err section

[meager flame]

although tbf

we may be getting ahead of ourselves

did they say how many

[chrome lantern]

Ofc not

[meager flame]

it still might just be some random side thing

kill 2342342 of these and you can make 200 arrows

hopefully not but lol

[chrome lantern]

Yeah especially given that Venators are primarily intended for active blood shard farming

[meager flame]

honestly it would probably save that part of the update if the arrows/hr are actually decent

since they deleted the use case for blood fury already

would be kinda doa since the necklace is kind of garbage now

[chrome lantern]

Hey I used my blood fury yesterday for the first time in years :p

Got a 1 and done awakened vard attempt after going 5/15 on practicing on an alt

83/84 orbs remain for the other 3

[meager flame]

lol i sort of feel bad for them because people begged forever to make the blood fury less terrible to maintain

so they totally had this idea for awhile

but waited way too long to put it in and now we just usually wear rancour and theres no reason for the blood fury almost

[fringe mist]

Amulet of Rupture? Stupid name. What, does anguish lead to a cyst now?

Rancour = Hatred
Confliction = Confusion
How about..sorrow or helplessness?

Amulet of Despondency / Despondence
Amulet of Dejection
Amulet of Contrition
Amulet of Desolation
Amulet of Lament / Lamentation

[meager flame]

i did almost say something similar they got a little too crazy with the naming and passed up a lot of the good choices

[chrome lantern]

I do like lament out of those options

[gaunt minnow]

Amulet of rupture makes sense to me

[chrome lantern]

Obviously needs to be rational to speak as an item too

Paroxysm

Or whatever

xd

[chrome lantern]

ehrm achsually none of these can be the name because only the first letter of an osrs item can be capitalized

[restive siren]

sorrow is pretty cool

[meager flame]

i think the part they maybe skipped over is how it actually sounds

lament or sorrow or whatever work and don't sound insane if you try to say it out loud without making you ask weird questions like

for example with rupture someone might look at that and think it sounds like it would add a bleed or whatever

[chrome lantern]

Bleed 5 damage every time you put it on :)

[vivid ruin]

Yeah rupture (while cool) doesnt sound right as a bis necklace* for range

[fringe mist]

Yeah, rupture isn’t very fitting, especially to convey an emotion. They might have figured rupture as in breaking under the pressure, but rupture isn’t very fitting for emotions and almost exclusively used for physical objects.

[gaunt minnow]

Rupture seems to make a lot of sense

Idk what you guys are talking about

What happens when an arrow hits someone ….. ?

[meager flame]

amulet of dying it is then

lmao

[vivid ruin]

Rupture sounds like it should be the name of a weapon

[chrome lantern]

Have you ever shot something with an arrow and seen it rupture

[fringe mist]

In the blog they said they wanted it to make sense thematically to their counterparts and jewelry in the same category

[chrome lantern]

Do you only shoot watermelon

[gaunt minnow]

I’ve never shot anyone with an arrow lmao

[chrome lantern]

An arrow is a lot more of a pierce than a rupture

[gaunt minnow]

But even I can figure out why rupture makes sense

[vivid ruin]

Have you ever imagined it??

[chrome lantern]

Considering that’s like not remotely at all why they’re naming it rupture

That should show why it’s not a good name

[gaunt minnow]

Regardless of the reason why there naming it what it is, it does make sense

That’s not debatable

[meager flame]

yeah i think the fact that they have to explain it to make it actually make sense in the way they mean it is indicative of how it probably doesn't fit too well

[gaunt minnow]

Rupture is probably a bad name though considering it does imply a damage overtime effect

[meager flame]

its like the flail honestly

lol instead of going for something that just sounds right/makes sense they tried to dig really deep for something that they'd have to explain for us to understand what they meant

that one should probably have just been the crimson flail instead of the kisten where for some reason you need to know the name for a medieval flail type weapon

[chrome lantern]

Crimson whackystickball

[vivid ruin]

Is the morningstar of rupture supposed to be 1h or 2h

[meager flame]

the best part is they didn't even go with the actual name of the weapon from back who knows when

they made a variation of it after researching alternative names for flails probably

[chrome lantern]

Probably

[vivid ruin]

Probably 1h??

[meager flame]

i would need to see the animation bc i can see it going both ways

[vivid ruin]

Same

[ruby geode]

Its surely 2h

[meager flame]

animation wise it probably should be 2h but who really knows

[drifting ginkgo]

hopefully 2h so u can leave the defender in the bank 😂

[chrome lantern]

Probably either 1h or 2h

[ruby geode]

If you could equip defender with it, it would out compete dclaws. They already said it won't be doing that

[meager flame]

idk why they even drew the line at dclaws like they don't already get bodied by 3 other spec weapons regularly

[vivid ruin]

https://tenor.com/view/gumball-cartoon-network-gumball-cn-slow-turn-crazy-crazy-smile-gif-22389846

[meager flame]

like lol

claws are already firmly in a 4 item rotation

[ruby geode]

Yeah voting no because we dont need spec weapon bloat with whack stats

[meager flame]

not even counting def reduction specs

i dont really mind if they add crush claws or whatever but like

its totally a way to add rewards without adding anything meaningful

thats why they went with it

they're just filling up the sheet with "go grind 40 hours to get xyz so when you do these 3 bosses they might be 1% faster"

type of upgrades

[drifting ginkgo]

idk im happy with a hi dmg crush spec, using claws in inq always felt wack as u dont get the dmg bonus

[meager flame]

ya like you'd use it but at the same time

if you compare the time save to just slapping whatever with your vw spec instead and so on it won't make a meaningfully big difference

its just stuff to go chase to say you have it and feel good that doesn't actually change the game

[chrome lantern]

It’s very interesting to me that they specifically talked about making stronger crush weapons in a standalone dedicated update instead of attempting to make PNM drops actually reasonable to go for and get

[drifting ginkgo]

Will say that I think there's space for a LOW accuracy spec wep that outdamages claws etc. by a bigger margin

as claws and vw have hi accuracy

[chrome lantern]

They still need to triple pnm drop rates and 5x orbs after adding pnm and making it like 30% faster

[drifting ginkgo]

pnm time to drop has been massively reduced TWICE lol

[meager flame]

i think its interesting how they brought up d claws in general as like this raid reward that cant be supplanted

[chrome lantern]

Yeah and it’s still not remotely worth doing

[meager flame]

but they actually already replaced it at tons of content with zcb/bclaws/vw

[drifting ginkgo]

and imo they were ideal on release xd

[meager flame]

d claws are like

already almost a cosmetic upgrade to your account

assuming you can grab the others lol

[drifting ginkgo]

Nightmare was a huge grind for huge drops, but now they're all worthless :/

[meager flame]

they are the best in some niches but honestly that isn't a super common outcome for them

[chrome lantern]

Like I absolutely love pnm as a boss fight but it’s an absolute waste of time to even consider grinding out drops there that have like 2 niche uses and require the full set to be good

[lament ridge]

Tbf I can't blame them for making a simpler sounding word after not a single player would even try to pronounce macuahuitl

[chrome lantern]

The aztec-inspired words are fine to me

[drifting ginkgo]

ya they sadly got powercreeped out of use, I mean inq used to be bis a lot of places and harm was also bis mage

[gaunt minnow]

Litterally a bis spec weapon at Tob, high value weapon pking and a bunch of other uses and you’re calling it cosmetic 😭😂

This is why jagex can’t add new items to them game

[vivid ruin]

You mean the dual maracas

[chrome lantern]

Harm was deleted by thrall release yeah

[gaunt minnow]

If they’re not literally bis with 10+ use cases then just don’t bother pitching it

[meager flame]

yeah except i said i dont care if they add this crush item

so you're kinda on one on your own atm

[lament ridge]

They're fine to me as well, but every single content creator just calls them mochaccinos or something like it's comedic genius to not even try to pronounce it

[meager flame]

tbf it is kind of out of its lane though when they add some of the crazier naming conventions for some items

[vivid ruin]

Dual maracas you mean

[chrome lantern]

Yeah I mean at this point it’s a meme

[meager flame]

if you go back and look at the actual language of the game its usually quite simple and direct

[chrome lantern]

You get more laughed at by trying to pronounce things like that correctly

And even Jagex encouraged it with Hueycoatl

[vivid ruin]

I found out the other day that its actually a pretty good stab weapon

[lament ridge]

Idk stuff like dual maracas is fine with me, it's just a personal pet peeve when they all do the "maka chaka whatever the fuck" as if it's so outlandish to have a word that isn't common english

[chrome lantern]

Eh that’s a bit deceptive because if your target has any notable defense then dual macu fall off hard

[meager flame]

like we didn't go back and look up the latin word for claw and then remix it to make the dragon ungui

not that it really matters because when they do it we just make up something stupid to call it instead but lol generally stuff is pretty simple in this game

[vivid ruin]

Think seeker arrows might knock bp down a notch?

[gaunt minnow]

No

I think they have no overlap

[vivid ruin]

Raising base hit to 3 plus increase accuracy of arrows

[drifting ginkgo]

I think venator bow on ggs is gonna be cracked with em 😎

[lament ridge]

Yeah true, I just think the concept of the area is really cool. It's been mostly closed off from the rest of the world but through the quests you gain the honour of exploring and sharing their culture. But in true british fashion it just gets dumbed down or straight up ignored

Not really that deep, just a minor pet peeve lmao

[gaunt minnow]

Isn’t that because, in practice, no one really likes rep or honour systems

Like they proved with zeah

[chrome lantern]

To be fair that was more a result of a couple of the activities specifically sucking really bad

Lovakenj being by far the worst offender

[gaunt minnow]

That definitely contributed

But also the fact that you had to do the whole grind for every account on every game mode just made it so tedious

It’s not just grinding the rep once, its grinding the rep once per character, and it wasn’t a fun progression system like completing quests or levelling a skill

It was just get this bar to 100% and move on

[drifting ginkgo]

nothing like pushing the plow on a new hardcore 😂

[chrome lantern]

I mean like Arceuus and Hosidius (after the plowing) and Shayzien were really really fast

[drifting ginkgo]

I do feel like a rep system where u got rep from activities that have an actual purpose in and of themselves, like minigames, bosses whatever wouldn't be so bad tho

Could be done right

[meager flame]

i think rep can work its just that they sat there and brainstormed the worst way imaginable to implement it lol

[tacit pendant]

Venator will just go even harder in colo and for general vibe slayer

[meager flame]

like

imagine each one of the houses actually had a few activities that you would do as a human being that wants to play the game

and thats how you got the rep

and you didnt lose the rep because someone vaguely read about the insane title in wow one time

[tacit pendant]

But that's not new. I'm glad they pared back how much ranged accuracy tbow and scobo were getting in one swing

[drifting ginkgo]

bit of a consequense of them having a completely empty continent they needed to fill with a bunch of activities all at once i think

[tacit pendant]

I'ma just call the weapon the crimons chin

[gaunt minnow]

I like rep if you get it passively doing the content you’d already do (pvm, skilling etc)

If I need to go put saltpeter in a bucket 3000 times for no reason then no thanks

[chrome lantern]

How much was 5 additional accuracy changing things? Ranged acc is already an insanely high number stat

Genuinely curious

[meager flame]

its just one of those osrs moments where the idea gets away from them and they see the system they want and the reward they want to give you for interacting with it

and then just kind of forget that people are supposed to have fun while they're doing it

although they dont do that too much anymore

but a lot of the older osrs stuff has a lot of that going on

[tacit pendant]

What problem does a rep system solve anywhere

[gaunt minnow]

Number go up

[meager flame]

in osrs i guess you'd be trying to provide like

progression

the sense of working towards a goal basically

[austere mulch]

Disagree but also… they should’ve just worked with soulflame horn like it was intended to in the first place 💀

[meager flame]

i mean its not actually cosmetic but usually

when claws are the best they're not that much better than the next best

not always but

a lot of the time

spec weapons are just like that now though

it just gets worse the more of them we get that are intended to kind of like

be on the same tier

[quiet plank]

Venator fangs and teeth can make dragon arrows and darts?

[meager flame]

apparently

surprise

[austere mulch]

They snuck that part in there probably hoping it wouldn’t get too much attention. Given that it didn’t have its own section despite being one of the bigger reveals

[meager flame]

well

[lone canopy]

I do think the original nexklace was +13 and +23 acc bonus from seeker arrows was the combine problem purely on tbow as they mentioned cause at magic lvl 250 targets ud get 250% more of that bonus.

[meager flame]

it kinda depends

[austere mulch]

Don’t think it’s an issue per se

But shouldn’t just gloss over it

[meager flame]

how often do you get the things and how many arrows do those things make

it could be completely irrelevant

[chrome lantern]

I just looked at the original blog, it was 22 acc on necklace and 23 on seeker and now both are 20

[lone canopy]

Oh okay.

So small loss

[chrome lantern]

Yeah I'm just curious how much of a difference that's actually making

[austere mulch]

Indistinguishable loss really

[chrome lantern]

Like was it even worth changing

[meager flame]

the ol ima tweak this because you all said things but i dont actually think its a big deal and these numbers are

not going to be relevant

[chrome lantern]

It anything I would've made the necklace 25 to match rancor then trimmed back arrows

[meager flame]

its like on wow when they drop the 1% nerf hotfix

[austere mulch]

In the context of main account pvm, you’re not really going to notice it anywhere

You didn’t even really notice the accuracy of pegs back when we camped prims

Even in inferno speeds

[drifting ginkgo]

ima be blaming it everytime I hit a 0 in cms

[austere mulch]

Was minor

[chrome lantern]

Also based on the explanation it sounds like the minimum hit of the dark bow won't be affected

Since it only ups 1-2 damage hitsplats to a 3

[austere mulch]

Sounds like there was a lot of feedback on how that accuracy increases power for purses and zerks though which makes sense since they benefit more from it

Due to lack of accuracy otherwise

[meager flame]

the interesting thing there is like

how much does that actually matter when you're hitting a guy wearing nothing

[drifting ginkgo]

balancing around pvp zzzzzzzzz

[meager flame]

i basically never do calcs for pvp but my initial reaction was like

don't they basically always hit as is

[chrome lantern]

Even worse if you're balancing around PvMing on restricted builds

[meager flame]

so the value of more accuracy might not even do anything

obv different if you're hitting someone thats like 70 def wearing max

[austere mulch]

Also I’m so tired of red and black gear lmao

[chrome lantern]

Same

[meager flame]

if they're tuning for pvm on pures that's just

[austere mulch]

Necklace of pursuit color scheme literally made me roll my eyes

[chrome lantern]

I pointed that out as well

[meager flame]

honestly that idea is so dumb i didnt consider it at all

[chrome lantern]

In my response to this post on the dev blog

[austere mulch]

Yeah this is infinitely better

[meager flame]

lmao like

i'd be worried about them if they were balancing for zerks in raids

[chrome lantern]

I don't think it's a farfetched idea though and I would not be at all surprised if they were catering

[tacit pendant]

5 accuracy is pretty mellow but, idk. They don't want to do the fang and shadow/conflictions thing with ranged so we get hella numbers I guess

[meager flame]

its kinda the future

numbers just gonna go up

well

okay

[tacit pendant]

For sure

[meager flame]

we could get really silly lol

and start making new stats so that you had to wear the new armor to do your old dps to new npcs

like +10 boss pen and every new boss has that stat added to their def and it reduces damage unless you hit that breakpoint

and then you're allowed to do your old dps

i think people would lose it though

[drifting ginkgo]

yh that sounds like the least fun way to do it

[candid siren]

Are vpns blocked now? After the maintainance I can no longer open the launcher I get a "sorry, you have been blocked" page.

[cloud iron]

10 years between range ammy upgrades and Jagex PRE NERFS the ammy to be only +5 accuracy over anguish. what a joke, reddit complainers and Gnomonkey wins again with their power creep pearl clutching. Jagex have some balls please and release gear with some real power for once

[meager flame]

lmao you should smile and wave on this one

the accuracy difference makes no difference

they couldn't have nerfed less while pretending to respond to feedback

[minor whale]

Legit

Complaining about the accuracy part of it being nerfed is silly and the necklace is still extremely strong

[cloud iron]

It's insult to injury, it's already a boring upgrade. +3 range str. Ten years is crazy waiting for these upgrades

[chrome lantern]

What do you want it to do?

[minor whale]

+3 ranged strength is considerable alongside seeker arrows

[cloud iron]

extremely strong lmao. why? because it edges out scythe at tob

[minor whale]

It's also just a standalone upgrade that's very strong?

[quiet plank]

How much ranged strength is a max hit? It's different than melee strength right?

[minor whale]

Depends on the weapon and yeah it's a bit different

[meager flame]

yeah the weapon makes a big difference

[minor whale]

Items like tbow will see multiple max hit increases

And Venator

[meager flame]

generally though 3 ranged str is like

a pretty standard osrs upgrade

[cloud iron]

Yeah that's the problem

Ten years for something "pretty standard"

[meager flame]

well yeah they gotta do it again in 10 more years

and also for the other 10 items you might be wearing

[cloud iron]

this upgrade should be low access, cost prohibitive, large enough to be a true aspirational piece of gear after ten years

[minor whale]

Man angry about game design philosophy that's existed forever

It's a necklace dude

Coming from not a raid

They've never been these massive grinds lol

[cloud iron]

It shouldn't come from this boss, it should come from a raid if that's what needs to happen for it to be something substantial

[minor whale]

Necklace slot items are generally the most impactful single slots while remaining pretty easily attainable

And that's what this is

[chrome lantern]

Again, what do you want it to do if you don't want a stat increase?

3 ranged str is sizeable

[cloud iron]

incremential upgrades are fine for things that get upgrades after a couple years, or a few years.

[meager flame]

i can see where he's coming from progression is slow but if they didn't do it this way

[austere mulch]

Inferno is also 10 years old fyi

[cloud iron]

ten years should be different. their design ignores the time between upgrades for this gear slot

[meager flame]

in 2026 we'd be dual wielding scythes with snoop dogg skins that hit 420s

[chrome lantern]

Time between upgrades should never be a factor

[cloud iron]

Right, and we should be getting something that is a big str cape slot upgrade over inferno after all this time too

same with ferocious gloves

[cloud iron]

It absolutely should be a factor, why do you think it shouldn't be?

[chrome lantern]

After the item releases, it doesn't matter if it was 10 years or 1 year between upgrades releasing