game-update

[warm storm]

add an aldarium store with 8 stock to match the cball store

[meager flame]

i think i would actually probably spend more time and effort on arrows if content like that existed than i currently do

[finite tapir]

i'm going to listen to ck funk for 10 hours just because you said that

[true talon]

while i hate aldarium supply, its still got a 100% source. so if i want to get it then i can.

[meager flame]

actually its not even a probably its a definitely

[minor whale]

There's no point in really arguing with them, Tass has been on this topic for years basically every update and Jagex hasn't budged a single bit so I think it's just inefficient to even discuss it tbh

Basically the equivalent of arguing with the people asking for Treasure Hunter to be added

[true talon]

they cracked on blood runes, ingots and other complained about things. so its only a matter of time.

[narrow folio]

You make the weirdest points pyro that don't make any sense

[meager flame]

it would be one thing if they had content already and we actually went and put effort into it to get whatever instead of just ignoring it like its not happening

[finite tapir]

believe it or not, scythe is not the only thing which uses blood runes

[minor whale]

Lmao

[narrow folio]

It could be on the backlog

[warm storm]

i actually do agree with tass that trading in quiver for d arrows would be a good thing overall

it rewards effort

[finite tapir]

and i agree that ingots were bad design, because they go against the intent of dt2 bosses dropping stuff the way they do

[finite tapir]

yeah but 250 arrows each quiver is silly

[true talon]

like why am i going to go do colo on my ironman to trade in quiver for 4k sunfire splinters lol

[narrow folio]

or just some other content that has a dedicated dragon ammo source like scar essence

[true talon]

after green log colo is dead content to me

[minor whale]

I think "on the backlog" content would probably be discussed somewhere and not just suddenly dropped on Colo
I'll just save my breath until if they actually do announce it 👍

[finite tapir]

that would quite literally 4x the amount you get per hour

[thick beacon]

i disagree because i think ppl want to have best dps they can get only ranged has that issue. idt irons would want their meta to be use a shadow with 5% less magic dmg and on scythe 8 less melee strength bonus

[narrow folio]

not colo specifically, but easier way to gain dragon ammo (not for free, mind you)

[true talon]

make it 500 per quiver and remove them from the table.

[finite tapir]

yeah no

[narrow folio]

I also agree colos been abandoned

[minor whale]

Again you're asking for it to be literally 7x as common a source
That's just categorically easier

[warm storm]

i do think that jagex cares about dragon arrow sources for irons- look at duke, frost dragons

[meager flame]

yes but that might actually mean someone stops and reasonably does that vs doing whatever they're going to do and if the arrows are in their bank already great and if not great

[narrow folio]

frost dragons barely count but I feel in next year they're going to address it

[meager flame]

generally its not something people actually engage with atm

[true talon]

ya unsure why they are protecting it. doom was a good chance to add it. doom table is dogshit.

[finite tapir]

i've already said if they add hard content dedicated to getting d arrows i'm fine with that

[narrow folio]

that has darts which is adjacent

why does it need to be hard content?

[true talon]

Frost dragon bones being broken into tips woulda been good. they are locked behind 87 sailing and high stats to make a boat.

[finite tapir]

because it's premium ammo

[meager flame]

i mean i think colo is probably a lot harder than any alternative content idea they'd come up with for d arrows

[finite tapir]

87 sailing isn't very high though

[minor whale]

Because it's the best in slot ammo that's designed around being hard to get or exceptionally rare

[thick beacon]

as far as i know this darrow drops from pvm has been going on for years and we still are having same talk about dammo being scarce

[warm storm]

or a [[scaly hide]] for d arrows. "sharp dragon talon" or smth

[ornate wolf]

Wiki links found:
https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Scaly_blue_dragonhide

[meager flame]

like if we think colo is too easy to buff that and make it a source worth actually going for

i dont think we're getting anything harder than that

[true talon]

its not designed that way, infact if you want to know the reason they are so scarce is because there was only one item that used them. which was the dark bow.

they started adding more weps that use them over time.

[finite tapir]

is there a citation for this

[true talon]

dark bow's release is when they added dragon arrows.

[finite tapir]

yeah that's not enough

[minor whale]

Yeah man in the past 10 years since Tbow has existed they never once thought "You know, why haven't we thought about that Tbow can use these arrows? I still thought it was just the dark bow!"

[finite tapir]

i meant a dev going "yeah actually that was the intent"

[true talon]

this goes back further than tbow or even osrs

[meager flame]

tbf they did actually add a shit ton of dragon arrows with/since tbow

[true talon]

they had to, but they also added amyethst arrows

to combat the d dart problem

[meager flame]

they've just never actually ramped up to something that you should actually go for explicitly to get arrows

[narrow folio]

up to now, bis premium fish have been kind of hard to get, like anglers and dark crabs, then they add trawling which gives a LOT of fish for some investment and input

why cant they do the same for dragon ammo?

[finite tapir]

because they aren't really "premium" fish

just because something is bis doesn't inherently make it a premium

[warm storm]

it kinda does

[narrow folio]

look at the prices and you tell me

[finite tapir]

no it doesn't

[minor whale]

They added a bis single bite hard food which is not exactly a "premium" item

[meager flame]

they also added better karambwans and +prayer food thats as good as a shark

i'd say those fish are pretty good honestly lol

[narrow folio]

premium hard food that has bis single bite, 2 tick karambwan bis hp, some food that heals prayer at the same time

[thick beacon]

from some of the posts ive seen on this discord its pretty clear most irons want dammo to be improved in some way

[warm storm]

is moonlight meat not premium food? i guess i don't understand your definition of premium

[meager flame]

it is

its actually pretty painful as far as food goes

[finite tapir]

p => q, p </= q

[narrow folio]

both consumables used in pvm

[minor whale]

Jagex added a whole ass fletching mini game where you get common rewards that drop various arrow tips based on your level, and at level 90+ you get...1 dragon arrow tip at 1/9
They very clearly balance dragon arrow tips around being not easy or common for irons to get

[true talon]

they said that mini game was designed around mid game players.

mid game players dont need d arrows

[narrow folio]

i dont think that minigames a good example

[finite tapir]

moonlight antelope is premium because of it's scarcity with respect to potential uses/hr, as well as being bis. anglers, dark crabs, mantas - are not premium (well, manta rays could debatably be called premium now that they removed a lot of pvm sourcing), because they are not anywhere near scarce

[meager flame]

i just think its interesting in general because i feel like on some level they think people are out there like

hard grinding the d arrows and struggling and this is some big tuning point

when the reality is that its just bad, we don't really interact with it at all and it is what it is

[warm storm]

ah, we just disagree then. i would absolutely call anglers premium food

[minor whale]

I mean there's about a dozen other examples of them balancing dragon arrows around being hard to get for irons, the fletching one is simply an example of "why does it have to be hard content?" Being extremely bad for dragon arrows

[thick beacon]

idt pvm angle has worked its been 10years and we still are having same discussions

i think they need to do something diffrent for dammo

[meager flame]

and a lot of people sit around and are like

[narrow folio]

breaking down bones

[meager flame]

you know if jagex offered me a reasonable way to do this i'd invest time into getting the arrows but they don't so i just smack pink rock while afk sometimes

its not really peak game design lol

[true talon]

bingo, i used d arrows on doom for a little but after losing around 3k i just switched to amethyst.

[finite tapir]

id say 470/hr isn't quite scarce enough to be considered a premium, personally

[round lintel]

To the comment that said "Grand exchange" I dont think you see the problem even as a main. your profit x hr cuts down alot on how amethyst can be obtain vs d arrows. is not consistent

[meager flame]

its a little too out of reach i guess you'd say to compel people to actually interact and invest

[warm storm]

for me the word is entirely defined by its usefulness, regardless of its rarity

[round lintel]

of course you can blow money in GE for d arrows but what if they were easier to get and more in line to every other arrow?

you can profit more in your pvm encounters

[minor whale]

They added a dragon that drops dragon nails, dragon sheets, dragon cannonballs, and requires 87 sailing
Annnnd dragon arrow tips are still uncommon and slow to get from them

Jagex has had a looooong time and a looooot of opportunities to make them more common and they don't because I'm assuming they have the same pov as me and Lily

[finite tapir]

would you say swift blade was a premium weapon

[thick beacon]

i think mindsets can change I feel they already have jagex was the one that proposed scar mining and all these iron midgame additions

[warm storm]

not anymore, certainly. but it was when it had a niche bis application, sure

[thick beacon]

darrows like last hill

[narrow folio]

something that has bis use that takes a lot of time to stockpile

[meager flame]

i just think they maybe don't really get the argument and what people dont like about dragon arrows to begin with

[finite tapir]

yeah, and anglers/dark crabs don't follow the latter

[warm storm]

anglers are the only food that overheals you

that is bis sometimes

[finite tapir]

brews

[narrow folio]

theres one more

[warm storm]

food

[narrow folio]

some random fish

[meager flame]

like i want to spend time gathering arrows they just haven't offered me a method that's good enough to justify me actually doing that

[thick beacon]

food stuff is whatever imo brews are bis food for most things darrows/dammo is very powerful

[round lintel]

1k cgs = 7k d arrows. So pretty much 142 hours of cg = to 20 hours of doom

[thick beacon]

dragon botls are extra 20 ranged str alone

[finite tapir]

karambwans aren't food then ig

[narrow folio]

to be fair no ones doing cg just for arrows

[warm storm]

you can't eat a bwan or sip a brew during the downtime at pnm phase changes without getting annoying stat loss or losing your overheal

ipso facto, angler bis there

[meager flame]

dragon bolts actually could've been awful too

but

[narrow folio]

crossbows are barely in the meta

[finite tapir]

i don't really see how that makes it a premium

[round lintel]

Then 1k dukes on average = 5k d arrows. 1k duke being 50 hours = 16 hours of doom

[finite tapir]

still 470 fish/hr

[meager flame]

they actually produce quite a few of those compared to how many you actually use

[narrow folio]

and zcb doesnt care about dragon on specs

[thick beacon]

isint peak darrow rn like 250 arrows an hour? it has to be way better then that

[meager flame]

yeah the current methods are firmly just not worth the time

if you're there doing something else cool

[round lintel]

you forget about grubs

[finite tapir]

ye like 260 ish

[narrow folio]

talking about sourcing

is he?

[thick beacon]

ye im talking about if u wanted to grind darrows with max gear what could u get rn

[true talon]

the biggest issue is the source is RNG tied. yea it might be 250/h but you can go many hours without a single drop. id much rather it be like do 20 minutes of colo an trade quiver in type of deal.

[small anvil]

being RNG tied is not the issue lol

[true talon]

it is the issue

[small anvil]

everything in this game is rng tied

[true talon]

no its not

[small anvil]

is the dbolt source not RNG? ddarts?

[true talon]

those are consumables facing the same problem

[warm storm]

98% of things in this game are rng i'll have you know 🤓

[round lintel]

Darts are 4x more common in the game than d arrows

[true talon]

consumables do not need to be tied to RNG

[thick beacon]

but use them way faster to

[small anvil]

yeah you use darts 2.5x faster

[narrow folio]

compared to a 5t weaopn of course

[round lintel]

no because bp is not your main source of damage at everything

[small anvil]

yes i was using 5t as the base for comparison

[thick beacon]

my biased take is i want dammo to be viable for any grind. id love if ddarts were viable even meta for tob on iron

[warm storm]

they totally are yowa

you use like 6 a raid

[minor whale]

250/hr being "rng" is such a copout
You're expected to get 250 in an hour and saying "I could get 0" is just as silly as saying it's actually 4k/hr because I hit every single Darrow drop in 3 colos in a single hour

[thick beacon]

ye im assuming that most ppl wont have a tbow pre tob though

so bp would be alot bigger

[warm storm]

oh yeah, fair point

[minor whale]

You have a 1/3 of getting 250ish per Colo run and can do 3 Colo runs per hour
You are not doing a whole month of Colo and barely getting any dragon arrows, the variance on their drops is already very low

[small anvil]

how many arrows get used up an hour anyway

if its 250/hr to gain

i dont wanna math rn

[winged mantle]

If you used d arrows on everything as an iron you don't get enough back to sustain

[minor whale]

240 if constantly firing a tbow

[winged mantle]

Rune arrows however you do if that's a comparison

[minor whale]

It's 1/5 to lose at 1200 shots per hour

[round lintel]

im gonna give you an example. im hunting the mining pet on my main

this is 2 days of afking

if you make em into arrows thats even a greater number

[meager flame]

this is why pink rock too strong

[minor whale]

Yes and the premium ammo should not be mass attainable by afking content on the side

[meager flame]

and no d arrow method is worth it remotely

[small anvil]

i mean amethyst was made largely with irons in mind right

[minor whale]

Pink rock is overabundant that doesn't mean dragon arrows should be

[small anvil]

use it where you feel its worth using it

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[round lintel]

but thats the thing we arent saying should be mass produced but more consistent to get

[minor whale]

Amethyst was literally made for irons to have an easy consistent almost dragon arrow item to attain without needing to get good

[meager flame]

im not saying we need that many d arrows but it does put the game in a place where rather than like

[minor whale]

I think wanting 1500/hr is pretty mass produced

[winged mantle]

35 hours?

[meager flame]

grinding out d arrows and being happy about it

[round lintel]

close to 30 hrs

[meager flame]

you're basically just dumb if you grind d arrows

[warm storm]

getting good meaning afking brutal black dragons for 10 hours i assume

[small anvil]

i dont think grinding out anything like that is worth it

[meager flame]

which isn't very interesting

[winged mantle]

Who's playing 15 hours a day

[round lintel]

Thats the amount of time i work everyday sadly

so i work from home

[meager flame]

they need to be good enough that going for it is a reasonable thought

[small anvil]

How often are irons saying "i need to grind ranarr seeds"

[winged mantle]

That's so much time you could spend on other iron chores

[warm storm]

sepulchre and farm contract skippers do be the loudest

[small anvil]

sometimes you use moths to make things easier

[winged mantle]

In the mid game - alot

[true talon]

Was actually made to combat d dart problem, not arrows.

[thick beacon]

hm is amethyst like 1500 arrows per hour? i think half of that would be good rate for both ddarts/darrows and a consistent form somehow

[small anvil]

like i kinda just see this as an inherent part of the game mode

you make compromises because its all done yourself

[meager flame]

i would agree if the rest of the game mode didn't exist

but since you basically dont do this anywhere else idk

[winged mantle]

The scarcity of d arrows and d darts = we don't use them

[small anvil]

like the way i think is "acceptable" ish would be like breaking dlegs into arrows or smth

[thick beacon]

diffrence of not using dammo is living pre toa era for ppl its that strong

[small anvil]

you get them somewhere

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[meager flame]

yeah i think the main problem is the current tuning point means players simply don't interact

not that its hard

its not adding anything to have players simply ignore content

[true talon]

correct

[winged mantle]

Imo it's a gap for the devs to fix

[small anvil]

just choose where you use them

unless you're doing speeds or smth

[narrow folio]

oh definitely breaking down dragon items

[small anvil]

in which case deiron

[narrow folio]

bones etc

[small anvil]

not bones hell no

[winged mantle]

This basically means bingo, cas and blood torva.

[true talon]

btw even if you green log CM's you will only accure around 20k d arrows.

[narrow folio]

like superior bones?

[small anvil]

yeah i think that's... fine ellie jae

[warm storm]

i also used d arrows exclusively for the nex grind

since mvp is actually very important there

[round lintel]

People has gotten the wrong idea that because you chose to play ironman you need to do repeatable content you already finish to resupply yourself for thousand of hours to keep progressing on things that really matter

that same mentallity is what get people buying gold

[small anvil]

i dont think people should try to grind for darrows anywhere

[small anvil]

its the little bit you treat yourself with

[winged mantle]

If you're an end game iron it's not really great gameplay being locked out of bis. At this stage also for those of us that have played an iron for 6+ years - not really a choice

[meager flame]

i just think we'd be better off if it were difficult but also worth it

[winged mantle]

There is no other way to play the game

[true talon]

damn that log is spoon as fuck it got tbow on 29 kc and maul on 2 lol

[meager flame]

people would just have more things to do in the video game

[warm storm]

irons are limited when it comes to endgame speedrunning- that's just how it is. we can't trade for tob speeds or share pots at cox either

[small anvil]

i mean the only way to make it "worth it" to grind for dragon ammo

is to make the rate ludicrous

[meager flame]

i dont think it would have to be that insane

[winged mantle]

You can share pots

Just don't pick them up

[thick beacon]

my only counter is why would jagex add scar mine why would people vote these sorts of ideas in. I think commuity wants a shift it already has shifted massively

[small anvil]

you could just accept lower dps

and do the content

[narrow folio]

I mean, you can have the rate be good but click intensive, or bad and afk

[small anvil]

with amethyst that is gotten 0 time no

[meager flame]

thats what im talking about though exactly that

we do that already

[winged mantle]

I use rune arrows for most content

[narrow folio]

Or expensive (item sinks)

[round lintel]

people are like "Oh you are an iron you must suffer cuz you chose not to use GE"

[thick beacon]

also i dont think alot of irons even like alot of dumb rules like not being able to pick up pots whatnot at cox etc there was alot of upvotes on that

[round lintel]

very based

[meager flame]

and it just means we do less content not more at the end of the day

[small anvil]

yeah turkey, the inflection point for where it becomes worth doing other content

becomes thousands of ammo per hour

[true talon]

100% way to get 750/h would be worth doing. its half the ammount of ameythst.

[small anvil]

esp if it requires attention

[thick beacon]

im sure ppl also want to see venging ppl added as well

[true talon]

the biggest issue is the source

[meager flame]

i think there is like

[small anvil]

you're getting what, 5 min of time save an hour max?

[winged mantle]

We already have enough things to maintain - why spend valuable time grinding for such a low amount of d arrows

[small anvil]

so you'd need to be able to get that hours of ammo in 5 mins of the other content

[true talon]

like if quivers broke into arrows or tips id be doing colo when i want arrows.

[meager flame]

a tipping point in there where people know they could probably just do the content faster but for whatever reason dragon arrows are just good enough

that they choose to farm them anyways

we're just really far from that atm

[warm storm]

scar essence is a response to the shophop meta, it isn't really related to speedrunning at all

[small anvil]

you either have to make it so afk that its like amethyst

[thick beacon]

do u want range meta to be -12ranged str on tbow/8 str on bp?

[small anvil]

or such a high rate that it's worth it to gain a few mins per hour

ok what % diff in dps is dragon to amethyst

[winged mantle]

What?

[thick beacon]

thats hm worse rune stuff is

[true talon]

3 max hits at most content, since they added the boots.

[small anvil]

(using amy as the baseline cuz i assume its relatively 0 time, could also do it for rune arrow)

[meager flame]

tbh i think scar essence was a bad solution

[small anvil]

so that's 5% at most right?

under 5%

[meager flame]

jagex knows people just dont make enough runes for it to actually make any sense

they were just too scared to correct the game

[small anvil]

5% of an hour is 3 minutes

[true talon]

i mean its the same as just not wearing an anguish worth of dps

[narrow folio]

my issue with scar is it benefits certain runes a lot and screws over others (astral)

[round lintel]

if you tell me they add an extra role to colo for d arrows being 350 from wave 11-12

[winged mantle]

They should have just let the rune stores work like leagues at the max price per rune

[small anvil]

to make it WORTH doing, youd need to make an hours worth of arrows in 3 minutes

[warm storm]

scar essence is an amazing update imo

[small anvil]

you see how that's a LUDICROUS rate right?

[meager flame]

like

[round lintel]

ill probably send more but is not enjoyable after you bless quiver to keep coming back

[thick beacon]

ye but theres many other suggestions that ppl want to see that are tied to endgame pvm like chambers qol

[meager flame]

it addressed the problem but i think they did it the wrong way

they just added a rune ge for irons

[thick beacon]

there was a point where u couldint even pick up cox pots if u didint mvp boss

and theres still alot of issues for ppl at chambers

[winged mantle]

Irons with shadows and Scythe would not be able to sustain without the scar

[thick beacon]

they can buy runes

[winged mantle]

Lol do you know how long that takes

[meager flame]

we already did we just go to a thematically different shop

[true talon]

not really. it doesnt have to be that extreme. a lot of people use d arrows because they want to have the best dps at the bossing they are doing. irons just dont got tht choice, you have to basically give up your anguish. all because the game doesnt offer any viable methods to obtain them and btw no other combat style suffers from this.

[thick beacon]

ik its faster then getting darrows

[meager flame]

im actually pretty sure

[winged mantle]

There are no rune packd for bloods or souls

[small anvil]

i'm not talking to you tass, you're not convincable cuz you're radicalized on this subject lol

i was mostly addressing turkey

[round lintel]

not even with shadow when yama came out i wasnt sustaining in runes if it wasnt for scarmining

[thick beacon]

its still faster afaik to shopscape souls

or roughly same

[round lintel]

until people figured out yama melee

[winged mantle]

Yeah that was so much spell casting if not melee

[true talon]

Its cheaper to shop souls as well

[meager flame]

shopscape souls are just better than scar essence iirc

cheaper and about the same speed

[winged mantle]

They are always bought out

[warm storm]

yes, it's what all of us with megas did before scar. it's still faster than crafting them yourself

[round lintel]

yeah but on content release every shop was bought out

[winged mantle]

Same issue with mith cballs

[true talon]

but i have 800m gp so i dont go for cheap options, also i rarely get runecraft exp so having to do 1 hour of scar ess runecrafting helps me train the skill.

[winged mantle]

Lol

[meager flame]

ya thats why i was saying though scar essence didn't really fix the underlying issue

its just a new thematic on a shop

[narrow folio]

imo having the meta be to shop hop is really bad for the mode where you're supposed to be self sufficient

[small anvil]

like in the end this is an issue that irons who have an excess of gp want to spend gp to get access to amenities

[true talon]

it fixed the shop scape hopping mainly.

[winged mantle]

Why is there no perma scy or shadow for a ludicrous amount of runes?

[meager flame]

yeah like the real problem is the rate that players manually make runes and the rate that runes actually get used

[warm storm]

good enough for me, that was a godawful way to spend time

[meager flame]

is very broken

[winged mantle]

Just a thought

[round lintel]

rather they make it 100k charges to max out

[thick beacon]

ye i like scar and i want them to be more progressive with things on iron cuz they already set the precedant by releasing these systems and commuity did to by voting them in

[true talon]

i would literally go scar ess the runes needed to make all my powered staffs permnant lol.

[round lintel]

20k go fast

[winged mantle]

I would pay 1m blood runes to perma my scy

[meager flame]

i think part of the rune problem though is that jagex kinda just went super in depth on rune sinks

where they ask you for a lot of runes randomly

[warm storm]

do you know about the auto-charge update? functionally the same thing you are asking for

[small anvil]

the solution is probably to let dlegs break down into like ~50 arrowtips or smth

[meager flame]

idk they're just fully bought into the mess of runes so scar essence was the only easy way to fix it

[true talon]

doesnt work on scythe

[round lintel]

last time it used my aether runes 🙁

[small anvil]

you probably previously charged with aether

[round lintel]

toggled it off

[winged mantle]

I liked tass idea of

dbones - d arrow tips/ d dart tips
Dragon items - d bolt tips

[meager flame]

speaking of soul runes though

how about that true soul altar jagex

[narrow folio]

50 each you say

[round lintel]

it was something i didnt plan i had soul runes to charge but i guess i was missing a couple and it used some of my aether and then it kept using them so i toggled it off

[warm storm]

i am also hoarding these :^)

[narrow folio]

on the off chance

regular dbones like 5 per, superiors 20 or something

[true talon]

it added a good sink for bones outside of prayer

[meager flame]

i like the corruption idea for almost everything too assuming they tune it correctly

[small anvil]

thats awful balance plinx

[meager flame]

where you low key spend more than you likely would've ever gathered to do it

[small anvil]

dragon bones are cheaper than dragon arrowtip

1 to 1

[true talon]

they could remove tips off drop tables then

[round lintel]

or using the giants foundry place to drop my dragon plateskirts/legs/chainbody to make metal sheets

[small anvil]

just asking for it to be so easy lol

[true talon]

my idea was to remove dragon ammo off tables and turn bones into a source to produce them.

[round lintel]

and metal sheets can make arrows

[narrow folio]

irons cant just buy dbones off the ge

[small anvil]

its just ignorant to thrown numbers out like that around

[true talon]

damn d bone is down bad

[small anvil]

cuz its so dumb

5 to 1

[meager flame]

turning anything into d arrows can work as long as the alch value supports it

[small anvil]

sure

[true talon]

also i suggested frost dragon bones

[small anvil]

just crash darrows at large

[narrow folio]

that would normalize their prices closer

[meager flame]

the alch value is the important part though

[true talon]

during the time of my suggestion d bones was not cheaper than arrows lol

[narrow folio]

or raise up dbones

[small anvil]

at least THINK before you throw a number out

[meager flame]

because thats how you tune the number low enough that alching it is better for mains

and their game stays the same

[small anvil]

i looked up dleg prices before saying 50

[true talon]

also i limited it to superior bones an hydra bones

[obsidian venture]

🥱

[small anvil]

and it was a bit high prob

[true talon]

or basically greater dragon bones

[obsidian venture]

Arguing with lazy irons 😅

[meager flame]

thats why like

[obsidian venture]

Another day same thing

[meager flame]

d legs to arrows could work

[winged mantle]

Rude

[meager flame]

but d bones cant

[small anvil]

its not even lazy irons, its just ones that refuse to face the fact that dragon ammo is a luxury

[winged mantle]

Late game irons was access to bis ammo = lazy

[small anvil]

not a right

[true talon]

this is only the case, because of bots.

[meager flame]

also yeah d bones are cooked

[small anvil]

Dragon bones get dropped a ton at a time at all sorts of bosses

[meager flame]

jagex ended their career with frost dragons

[jagged marsh]

Aren't dragon arrow tips supposed to be their claws or teeth or something

[meager flame]

and asking people to kill 234234234 of them

[winged mantle]

I treat it as such but also acknowledge it needs to be addressed

[small anvil]

its not bots that are the majority of the supply rn

[obsidian venture]

Like if you’re doing 20 min unscaled solo cox, consider using amethyst. Tryna run money s14 solos? Maybe dragon

[meager flame]

ya im just saying math wise alch value is the important factor for if you could turn something into d arrows

[jagged marsh]

@meager flame oh like theoretically for the price

I understand

[meager flame]

yeah

[obsidian venture]

Like pick and choose where to use a limited resource

[winged mantle]

Smh

Missed the convo

[obsidian venture]

They have been slowly adding more sources over the years

[small anvil]

alch value matters if the price isnt already above alch value turkey

[winged mantle]

Read up bane

[small anvil]

the idea of 5!!!! dragon arrows for 1 dragon bone is ludicrous based on current prices

[meager flame]

yeah but you never know what happens in the future

[true talon]

ya people dont understand that im not up in arms over being mad about d arrow scarcity, but im actually calling it out. ive accepted that i wont use them outside of niche use cases as has any other end game ironmen accounts.

[meager flame]

this is basically just a guard rail for making sure the change wouldn't mess up the GE

[jagged marsh]

What if you had to treat the dragon bones in the calcified pool at fossil island. Then it takes time to turn into untradable dragon bone fragments which can be fletched into dragon arrow tips.

[obsidian venture]

Quick scroll. Kinda redundant convo

[winged mantle]

Same stance

[winged mantle]

Then keep it constructive

[obsidian venture]

Did above before everyone continued

[narrow folio]

if you're that concerned about current ge prices, there could be some sort of GP input needed along with the bones

[true talon]

just because you can accept a truth, doesnt mean you dont dispute it as a problem that can be improved.

[winged mantle]

It would be weird if I came in and just asserted "dam lazy mains"

[small anvil]

like scar was balanced to be never touched by mains, any hypothetical source here should be similar

[obsidian venture]

You could if it’s valid

[true talon]

actually, scar ess has produced two of the most profitable main money makers in the game twice now.

[small anvil]

This is irons who want to turn their excess gp into resources

[winged mantle]

If the content warrented but not for this one

[narrow folio]

dont mains use them for combos?

[winged mantle]

As what you mentioned was already discussed

[meager flame]

yup thats why you'd just figure out some standard of like "how much do dragon items alch for okay give them half of that in d arrows"

[narrow folio]

I know nate was liking that

[meager flame]

so no main would ever for any reason do that

[true talon]

sunfire runes and then aether.

[meager flame]

it could even be less

[small anvil]

i just dont think you should look at alch value first when the current street value is way higher than alch

[obsidian venture]

I think it’s valid for this either way. If it’s such a problem, Jagex would have addressed this no?

[small anvil]

street value should be absolutely the first thing you look at

[winged mantle]

They pick and choose their battles/ focus

[obsidian venture]

Also lore wise breaking down for tips is ???

[meager flame]

using street value for the items you're breaking down is spooky because you dont know what happens in the future

[winged mantle]

There's probable a giant list of things they haven't gotten around to sorting out

[narrow folio]

so how would 5 arrow tips compare with one dbone in alch value?

[obsidian venture]

They do but generally if something is causing uproar, they are generally open to discussion

Or they’d release a blog

[small anvil]

its the first sanity check but i agree you want to look at alch value too

[narrow folio]

oh ok arrowtips are way more still

[small anvil]

but like failing the first sanity check is really bad

[narrow folio]

not that anyone alchs either

[small anvil]

and we dont WANT dragon ammo hitting alch value

[winged mantle]

Mains shut down this topic a lot which is part of the problem

Some iron issues don't get light of day due to main bias

[small anvil]

irons kinda just ignore that the market exists

[true talon]

Its ok, once ship combat is good. we can go attack the dragon cannon ball problem.

[small anvil]

and throw out silly suggestions

[obsidian venture]

Mains can only interject on the basis of economy

[small anvil]

like 5 dragon arrowtips for one dragon bone

[obsidian venture]

Which this would affect if we added more sources for bis

[round lintel]

Again let me just use the giant foundry furnace or blast one, to put my dragon alchs to make dragon bar or sheet

[true talon]

pretty sure dragon javlin heads are used as alch fodder.

[round lintel]

then turn them into d arrows

[winged mantle]

Both opinions are valid but we speak from "how can we get more of this"

[obsidian venture]

Yes I get that

I don’t believe breaking down stuff is the answer

[oblique mesa]

Green dragons are already botted into the ground, making dragon arrows from dragon bones would make them so cheap

[small anvil]

yes but somehow plinx landed on 5 arrows for 1 dragon bone

[winged mantle]

If they add a deconstruction skill

[true talon]

thats why i said only superior bones and hydra bones

[small anvil]

truly a genius of game design

[obsidian venture]

Bandaid solution really

[true talon]

or now frost dragon bones

[narrow folio]

was throwing out relative numbers

[winged mantle]

What would you suggest

[obsidian venture]

Only thing they can do unless they look at what endgame maintenance looks like is to add sources

[true talon]

frost dragons will move onto dead content, once no1 needs nails or sheets.

so much for the 87 sailing island

[narrow folio]

but the idea's sound as it's dragon related and provides another sink since bones arent used after 99 prayer

[meager flame]

the really hard part about adding the sources the way they do it

is what happens when theres no reason to do the content anymore

[obsidian venture]

Anything else is a bandaid solution, at least with the ideas discussed

[winged mantle]

I like the idea of dragon bones being repurposed

[meager flame]

then you get slapped with the "well ammy arrows are just a way better use of your time" and we're back where we started

[small anvil]

like i kinda feel like a bunch of irons wont be happy until dragon ammo is on avg profit from whatever content comes out

that uses it

[narrow folio]

could even tune the numbers to 1 or 2

[small anvil]

=/

[meager flame]

thats why it probably needs to be some kind of standalone activity

[small anvil]

1 is already a dumb idea is the issue plinx

it kinda just goes to show you put 0 thought into what you say

[narrow folio]

You don't know me and that statement is really inflammatory. I'd watch the insults.

[hasty jackal]

the dragon nail parlour, do dragon's nails for dragon nail clippings that turn into arrows darts and bolt.

[meager flame]

it basically has to use the scar essence model where the iron whatever they're doing

[small anvil]

you put thought into suggesting 5 per dragon bone?

[winged mantle]

The problem is not enough gove enough supply + there's no way to create them

[meager flame]

is doing something that a main would never mathematically do

[obsidian venture]

No

[meager flame]

thats the only safe way to do it

[narrow folio]

The point of an idea is to put out something and iterate on it

[small anvil]

cuz thats kinda uh... disqualifying if you're claiming you did

[narrow folio]

It's not productive to take the high horse and call anything you disagree with zero thought

[obsidian venture]

Breaking stuff down is a piss idea

[small anvil]

and then the "revised" number being 1

is just so garbage

when currently darrowtip is higher than dbone

[narrow folio]

and frankly that attitude is just rude and toxic

[winged mantle]

There are so many things like that in game

[obsidian venture]

If Jagex literally Sat down and said that fits their vision for ironscape I wouldn’t say anything

[winged mantle]

Smithing, fletching etc

[small anvil]

any suggestion for irons should try to NOT affect things for the economy at large

[narrow folio]

you could've said anything but the insults

[obsidian venture]

Yeah but not for bis ammo?

[tender peak]

If I may throw my stupid idea into the ring:

Cut a Zenyte into 1000 Zenyte Tips. These can be attached to dragon arrows or dragon bolts and then enchanted to make a Zenyte Arrows or Bolts respectively.

Zenyte ammo would have the exact same stats as dragon ammo but have an additional 90% chance to not get consumed upon use. Stacked with the Ava's Assembler, that's 98% ammo conservation, or a whopping 50k shots per Zenyte

[obsidian venture]

Grow some skin mate ffs

[small anvil]

you couldve put a moment of thought into a suggestion you made

[meager flame]

like it would be super amazingly easy to get the math right on like

[small anvil]

instead of saying "oh 1 or 2 is the right number"

[winged mantle]

No more zenytes please

[obsidian venture]

You derail the convo more by being offended

[meager flame]

"im gonna break down dragon equipment into some amount of d arrows that will never be worth it for a main"

[tender peak]

we need MORE zenytes!

[narrow folio]

It's not fair to have to interact with rudeness when discussing ideas

[meager flame]

like so easy

[small anvil]

after i pointed out that darrows are more expensive right now

[tender peak]

go back to monkey jail!!!

[obsidian venture]

It’s fair if the idea is that bad

[narrow folio]

Having a legitimate reason to disagree is NOT a free pass to go around insulting others.

[round lintel]

dude i said metal bars or sheets / aka what we complaint from sailing but can also be used for d arrows

[small anvil]

please actually add something worth discussing then

[meager flame]

yup

[narrow folio]

I added the idea and we discussed it

Leave the insults at the door please

[obsidian venture]

See this is where Jagex could have done something but they didn’t

[tender peak]

what about purchasable dragon equipment, like the mace, battleaxe, and scimitar

[meager flame]

the only problem with the sheets is that im not sure if dragon equipment follows solid logic when it comes down to their alch values

so you might have to give each item a custom output

[meager flame]

ya thats just like scar essence

you would have a way to convert gp to arrow tips

[tender peak]

fair

[narrow folio]

which is fine

[obsidian venture]

Either way if you’re tryna use bis ammo for snail content that’s on you. Gl on maintaining it 🫡

[narrow folio]

but i dont like how it sort of encourages shop hopping again

[small anvil]

imagine proposing scar but with a 100 gp cost per rune and thinking its worth discussion

[tender peak]

Yeah it's not a bad thing I just wanted to point out that you would be giving dragon arrows a hard gp cost

[winged mantle]

If they implemented d bones into d arrows mains would get cheaper arrows

[small anvil]

thats about the equivalent of 1 dbone to 1 darrow

[obsidian venture]

And I’d hate that

[winged mantle]

Why

[narrow folio]

whether something is "worth discussing" is subjective

[meager flame]

i imagine it would actually end up costing irons a substantial bit more than mains

[obsidian venture]

Penny pincher mains should just become irons

[small anvil]

ah yes the ol "every opinion is subjective so you cant call me wrong"

[obsidian venture]

And its a good sink ammo wise

[small anvil]

the refuge of intellectual ignorance

[meager flame]

which honestly its probably fair that it does

because then it kicks d arrows over into this costs a lot but its worth it

rather than

[true talon]

thats why i have most of them blocked

[meager flame]

thats just not worth time lets ignore it

[obsidian venture]

Like muspah ess shouldnt have dropped so much

[narrow folio]

That's the issue with the community

[obsidian venture]

Would have had more value

[true talon]

they just derail the conversation and then tell you to go deiron

[narrow folio]

Geek brings up valid points but the way it's conveyed hurts the discussion

[obsidian venture]

Ammo is a great sink

[small anvil]

the issue is wasting time with insufficiently thought out suggestions then the revision still being absurd

[narrow folio]

And the way they shut out topics they don't like is the opposite of productive

[winged mantle]

I'm of the opinion ammo should be abundant/ shouldn't be hard to get

[obsidian venture]

For sure

I’m the opposite

[small anvil]

ammo should have costs

there's a cost to using things

[true talon]

it doesnt, unless your an ironman lol.

[winged mantle]

Rune arrow is everywhere

[small anvil]

doing content being pure profit is a problem

that causes inflation

[true talon]

any main with tbow can afford to use d arrows

[small anvil]

so make em cheaper right?

[meager flame]

i remember back when i got my first tbow and d arrows were like

[obsidian venture]

I mean Ellie and I disagree and agree on different things. Difference is she actually puts some thought into something I disagree with, which isn’t just random chatting

[meager flame]

idk maybe 500 gp each lmao

its a lot more now but its funny to look back

[small anvil]

dragon ammo is stuff that's a worthwhile drop

[obsidian venture]

More than I can say for some of yall

[small anvil]

that doesn't cause direct inflation

[winged mantle]

I just want irons to have more ways to access d ammo

[small anvil]

becuase it gets used up in a way that isnt being alched

the economy is important to a LARGE portion of the player base

[round lintel]

even as a main thats why u dont use your venator bow with d arrows

[true talon]

pretty sure they been as low as 1.1k, i think doom spiked them up to 1.9k from all the bots using scobows.

[small anvil]

and just saying it should be overturned for the sake of irons

[true talon]

same reason dex is 41m

[obsidian venture]

?

[small anvil]

is why people have a loathing for irons impacting game balance

[obsidian venture]

Why wouldn’t you use d arrows with vbow

What

Or did I misread

[meager flame]

i guess it depends on your account

[obsidian venture]

He said main

[small anvil]

it depends on what you're doing

[obsidian venture]

So idk what else that would mean

[meager flame]

like i totally dont give a shit on my main about arrow costs but i guess if the vbow was your bank

[winged mantle]

Could always make the d bone into d arrow types untradable

[small anvil]

if i'm t-skipping im using rune lol

[meager flame]

you probably wouldn't want to use d arrows

[minor whale]

He's said that a few times about stuff not being worth the gp as a main

Which is just wrong unless you're dirt poor

[obsidian venture]

Poor mental

Criminal af

[small anvil]

(im poor plz forgive)

[obsidian venture]

No

It’s downright disgusting

[small anvil]

you could fix this problem 🙃

[obsidian venture]

The legit opposite of irons

Where you have the ge

[true talon]

d arrows on ven bow is another problem, each max hit you lose is 3 max hits

[obsidian venture]

Like tf

[true talon]

ven bow has same scaling as scythe

[narrow folio]

not 3 max hits

[small anvil]

more

[obsidian venture]

Poor main syndrome accounts need to be low alched

[narrow folio]

the bounces have 2/3 the og damage

[meager flame]

i think it just takes people time to understand on mains

[obsidian venture]

Just my opinion dw!

[small anvil]

man im not even worth high alch

😔

[meager flame]

going faster and upgrading to whatever comes next for your gp/hr is always better than being cheap

always

[winged mantle]

Some don't understand killing things faster = more money elsewhere

[narrow folio]

there is a certain point where killing it faster loses you money

depends on charge cost and profit per kill of course

[small anvil]

i mean rune arrows are fine for t-skipping

[obsidian venture]

Never

[round lintel]

so you are saying, for mains is worth to use d arrows on your bloodveld task over amethyst? when you are also using cannon and pots? saving gp no matter how much your wealth is? like I mean my bank at some point was 50b last year and i still would try to save gp when I can and that isnt poor mentallity

[obsidian venture]

Use d arrows or stay logged out

[small anvil]

it gets used on like ghosts

[narrow folio]

thats just wrong

[meager flame]

tbf if you have 50b

[narrow folio]

mathematically it depends on the cost vs profit

[meager flame]

the saving isn't worth your time most likely

[winged mantle]

What?

[obsidian venture]

It’s poor mental and yes I’d use arrows on velds. Having 50b and being that poor minded is sickening

If true

[meager flame]

you'd be better off doing the bloodvelds and then getting back to however you made 50b

[small anvil]

taco was a mercher iirc?

[meager flame]

than getting a cheap bloodveld task

[warm storm]

time is money

[small anvil]

before iron

[round lintel]

thats why people stay poor, cuz they dont take good financial care 😄

[obsidian venture]

You might need a therapist. Save money irl not in a fucking video game

[winged mantle]

Boaty literally freaks out about 3k gp on the ground

[obsidian venture]

Like what are we saying man

[narrow folio]

It's not really nice to say they need a therapist because of that choice

[obsidian venture]

🤣🤣

[small anvil]

its fun doing clan events and seeing who picks up the drops the richies are too lazy to bother with

[obsidian venture]

It’s not literal 😭

[winged mantle]

People can play how they please - saying every main should be a certain way isn't a healthy view

[obsidian venture]

But that’s legit ???

[narrow folio]

Chill on the insults. Nothing deserves mockery. You can explain why you think that's not optimal but going straight to insults is bad.

[round lintel]

nah deathmatcher by mistake

[obsidian venture]

Sure but his example is piss

50h

Billion

Like what

[small anvil]

wtf someone who made money death matching not losing it

[winged mantle]

act poor, stay rich

[minor whale]

I have not unequipped dragon ammunition a single time since owning a tbow/ZCB/blowpipe

My time is worth more than switching ammo

[round lintel]

i cleaned donator for almost all of it before it got banned

thats why the "by mistake"

[meager flame]

lmao

[obsidian venture]

Bro even if you lose a lil gp on one task

You make more back doing most other things

[small anvil]

i switch ammos

[obsidian venture]

Like its a 0 concern thing

[small anvil]

😔

[obsidian venture]

Stop it

Grow up

Ffs

[minor whale]

If you've got a 50b bank and are penny pinching yeah that's an issue
Even if you've just got a tbow you don't really have to penny pinch your ammo, it's very inexpensive/hr

[round lintel]

saying

[narrow folio]

I mean it's valid to think that way or use lower ammo

No wrong way to do it

[winged mantle]

Going back to the topic tho. I would love to see how jagex addresses the lack of d arrows in a way that doesn't affect the economy

[obsidian venture]

Back when no one brought assembler in tob and darts littered the ground (yes even when I had under a bl). Yall really so poor minded its tragic

[small anvil]

depends what your gp making activity is for mains

[winged mantle]

Can you not

[small anvil]

but yeah i acknowledge my cheapness can be at times counterproductive

[round lintel]

i pick my d arrows still

[obsidian venture]

Was on a rebuild pissing darts out like I can’t believe its not butter

[obsidian venture]

I pray for you truly

[small anvil]

you should get that checked out

thats not healthy

not supposed to come out there

[warm storm]

i pick up my 2 d arrows at the end of nylo boss but that's just because of this damn helmet

[obsidian venture]

Can’t it’s chronic

[obsidian venture]

That’s fair

For irons

[small anvil]

i would be picking up the darts

🙃

[obsidian venture]

Ts pmo icl

[small anvil]

ok can someone translate

i think i finally sent bane off the edge

[winged mantle]

When someone picks up my brew after versik because they taste better

[obsidian venture]

This shit piss me off I can’t lie

[round lintel]

thats annoying af

[winged mantle]

It's kinda funny

[warm storm]

tob profits pots for irons at least

[obsidian venture]

Sadly I mean it

[round lintel]

i once got into a cox where we had a learner, it was a cm, i did my prep and guy got us killed at vesp, and he picked all my pots and redropped it

i left

never raided with them since

[winged mantle]

"we need to reset the raid"

[meager flame]

we had a guy die on olm one time and my friend went and dropped one brew in his pile

[hard axle]

Demon Tears, Muspah Essence... what else did they fuck up recently by overpumping into the game?

[meager flame]

and he couldn't pick up the stuff when he ran back in 😭

bro was screaming in discord

[round lintel]

thats evil af

[hard axle]

he was just trying to be helpful 😭

[round lintel]

first time i had a meltdown with my iron

then i started sending solos

[hard axle]

let me in, we can repeat the incident

[round lintel]

and got tbow

[hard axle]

btw, yes 😭

especially on velds with vbow

[round lintel]

nah not for me, i rather use deadeye

[narrow folio]

Check if it gives a triple max, otherwise not really a big deal

[round lintel]

not even for zulrah i ever used d arrows on my main

🙁

[narrow folio]

sure dragon ammo is better dps

world isnt going to end if you dont use it

[warm storm]

if you have tbow you can afford d ammo. it's 3 less range str bonus than the entire masori set (compared to amethyst)

[round lintel]

to be honest the only place i cared for my iron to have d arrows is = Doom, TOA since no shadow and cox

My colo runs are melee runs

so idc

but doom on release ate my 10k d arrows

[warm storm]

i used d arrows at colo for the 1way frem 1shot with vbow

[round lintel]

so i switched to amethyst

[narrow folio]

i could oneshot it without darrows but i was maining range

[round lintel]

Loool

No vbow

[narrow folio]

please don't repost censored words

[round lintel]

Deleted

it was just funny

[narrow folio]

that particular term is a derogatory one, so even if you use it elsewhere its not ok

yeah i get it

you werent meaning it that way but still

[tacit wharf]

dude censor

dumb*

[warm storm]

scunthorpe problem

but vbow is easier to type anyways

[true talon]

i dont think they overpumped into the game, they just didnt add a sink.

[round lintel]

is just how im used to call it

[hard axle]

errrrr

sir

that's literally

the same thing

[true talon]

sunfire splinters, demon tears, muspah ess all dont have sinks.

[hard axle]

splinters

that thing

how the fuck did i forget that

[small anvil]

irons kinda dont understand the economy a lot of the time i feel

[warm storm]

all three of those have sinks

[round lintel]

splinters gathering sucks

at least for me

[small anvil]

and its understandable but the economy and movement of prices are important for understanding for game balance

[round lintel]

I dont like to keep sending colos

[true talon]

splinters are easiest to get because of colo

[hard axle]

his argument is that they had insufficient, my argument is that they pumped too much

same thing

or similar enough*

[narrow folio]

blowpipe or bowfa not working on quiver is the issue

with limited weapons the charges for quiver work on, it doesn't sink as many

[hard axle]

plinxy, u realize that

more people have sunk splinters

[warm storm]

sunfire splinters are annoying af to gather on iron, demon tears aren't worth farming post-glog, muspah essence feels fine with vbow usage if maybe a little too generous (i'm not complaining)

[hard axle]

to permacharge quiver

than actually fucking use quiver charges right

quiver charges don't go down by 1 per tbow shot afaik

[narrow folio]

and opening it up would make more people willing to perma charge or use it up

so many irons I see just dont bother because they dont have tbow

[small anvil]

splinters are already in the dumpster

[hard axle]

[narrow folio]

also splinters not used for boot charges is insane

[round lintel]

yeah they are your charges go by as quick as you can get them outside doom

[hard axle]

I see plenty of people instantly go for perma charge after getting it

wave 1 style

[warm storm]

thank god ash in heaven for making quiver corrupt over time

[round lintel]

but doom easier to do for tears

[warm storm]

i would have never done it otherwise

[hard axle]

like, one of the things you gotta remember is that quiver havers are generally better players

[small anvil]

another pro iron anti economy move 😔

[minor whale]

Splinters are dead content because they're ludicrously plentiful, farmable with very low stats, have essentially 0 sinks except for permacharging quivers which is the only thing going for it
I don't think tweaking just one of those would solve the problems

[round lintel]

im at 35%

[warm storm]

[[sunfire rune]]

[ornate wolf]

Wiki links found:
https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Sunfire_rune

[true talon]

boots dead content now after treads

[hard axle]

https://i.imgur.com/lPp6OZW.png

~800 huey solos worth of contribution btw

[round lintel]

yeah i said that before and they came and said "oh Jagex said bots aka wave 1 farming is only 10%"

[small anvil]

splinters have insufficient actual uses

outside the one giant chunk people did for quivers

[hard axle]

yah

[true talon]

you see the suggestion eariler, to have quiver tradeable for 250 d arrows.

[minor whale]

Boots were dead content already for its effect
They were solely used for the fact ranged boots sucked in every way and they were just superior prayer boots basically

[hard axle]

wait really

[small anvil]

you use a tiny bit for prayer training

[true talon]

yea

[hard axle]

u would sacrifice for that?

[true talon]

100%

[hard axle]

fuck it lmao

[narrow folio]

its not thematic but thats the only issue

[true talon]

that combined with colo tip rng rolls

[hard axle]

500-750 darrows an hour and skill based

[true talon]

yea it wasnt a bad idea

[small anvil]

on top of 250/hr from drops

[true talon]

it also dont have an impact on economy because 4k splinters is more than 250 arrows

[narrow folio]

id also prefer a more afkish or passive way to get them as before, like breaking down dragon items or bones

[hard axle]

as long as mfers aren't saying add darrows to fletching shops

for gp

[true talon]

i green logged colo at 95 kc

so i dont have a reason to go back

which is a shame, because its fun content

[round lintel]

they will say d arrows

but i dont feel like doing colo and duke till i die

[tacit wharf]

except they aint either of those things

[small anvil]

i think letting you destroy vork would be a thematic way of doing it but like, i would think it should cap at like ~300/hr

[narrow folio]

you fashion the dragon bone into an approximation of talons, which are fittingly enough for ammunition

superior bones would work since vork drops them anyway

[warm storm]

#game-update message

[narrow folio]

useless after 99 prayer, u dont need that many antifires

ooo yeah scaly hide too

[small anvil]

a drop thats like that wouldnt do much

cuz it would be instead of a dragon arrow drop

[warm storm]

50 d arrows is more than 8 d arrows as far as i am aware

[small anvil]

is it only 8?

i'm sure i've seen much bigger darrow drops than that lol

[warm storm]

frost dragons

[thick beacon]

the efficent advice is to do after u get tbow/scy. ur not using charges really at all unless u get it extremely early for scobo. bp/bowfa are main weapons get 0 perks

[small anvil]

oh frost drag not vork

meh

[narrow folio]

isnt scaly hide a separate roll?

[warm storm]

it wouldn't be meta changing, which is kinda what i was going for

just more passive sources like we already have

[hard axle]

if u go the quiver turn in route, yeah

[small anvil]

i'm just saying making an item for that is just kinda pointless

cuz you could just have whatever drop the arrows themselves

[true talon]

Frost dragons having bones turned into tips woulda been cool. its locked behind 87 sailing.

[hard axle]

wave 1 reset route is only a bit slower afaik

[small anvil]

all the break down x ideas are more reliant on things that already drop elsewhere

and people have stocked up

[warm storm]

yeah i mean the scaly hide is also pointless by that metric, along with the red spider sack

[true talon]

I want this gone, wave 1 having splinters was stupid.

[hard axle]

same

[thick beacon]

but theres no point ur stacking charges for things u wont use them for is the thing

[small anvil]

they were good once upon a time i guess

[thick beacon]

its like caring about vials of blood farming before u even have a scy

[hard axle]

its decent-ish for the demonbane route now, no?

bowfa skipper

[thick beacon]

ye but there arent many ppl skilled enough to even get quiver early

[hard axle]

i dont think they fixed the grub arrow glitch yet

[warm storm]

it's about 60% of the speed of completing colo runs if you make no mistakes and are doing w1 resets efficiently (dinh spec etc)

[hard axle]

60% is wild

[thick beacon]

scobo is definitely a big use but u have to get it decently early for normal people standards

[narrow folio]

iirc there is no grub glitch atm

[true talon]

they said this was ironman propaganda lol

[round lintel]

to me remove the echo boots from the game xd and buff a little sunfire armour, buff ralos

[narrow folio]

i tested myself and quiver was saving arrows on grubs

[hard axle]

[small anvil]

yeah people were just shooting faster than expected with the quick resets

[round lintel]

Also why in the world braking oathplate is only 50 shards??

[narrow folio]

maybe its because you're firing so many arrows people gaslighted themselves

[small anvil]

on top of just almost constantly shooting at the boss

[true talon]

all of colo's reward space was not suited to its difficulty.

[narrow folio]

havent had such range heavy content in a long time

[warm storm]

w1 reset WR record holder btw

[true talon]

just think we nearly got red d hide prayer armor

[narrow folio]

whats the strat?

dinhs twice and hope for good rng?

[round lintel]

Ralos on its own is a very expensive weapon to use

[narrow folio]

to use? no way

its just a spec no?

[round lintel]

make it 4t hahaha so is more expensive

[narrow folio]

😂

[true talon]

it would have been cool to see it be 4 tick and then it is a double hit 4 tick ranged wep (which we currently dont got)

so you would use it at nylo

[warm storm]

dinh twice, vbow mage if still alive, ayak melee if it is still alive, nally serpent if it is still alive

max melee + veng

[round lintel]

in leagues i used it ate thru the splinters

1 splinter per shot

[hard axle]

how strong would it be

[thick beacon]

u spec once at tob maybe 5times in megascales

[round lintel]

not that strong

max hit on max range is like a 24-24

[hard axle]

ralos's issue is that there just hasn't been a ranged weak boss with high magic level and enough defense to be worth reducing

[warm storm]

ralos is bis for vamp krakens

[thick beacon]

its just bad design imo

[hard axle]

HUH

[warm storm]

let me rephrase

ralos is bis for vamp krakens

[true talon]

do you spec them down?

[round lintel]

ralos is too slow to be bis for vamp krakens

[true talon]

then tbow it lol

[narrow folio]

you spec it then use something else

[hard axle]

is it cuz of double hit?

[warm storm]

your dps is really bad so you aren't actually losing much in the 6t you spec. the def reduction is strong because it makes your cannons much better

[true talon]

so its just used for its spec, its not a bis lol

[narrow folio]

or are you talking about auto

[warm storm]

you then dps with shadow/ayak

[hard axle]

oh cannons

[narrow folio]

oh ok

why would u ralos spec then dps with magic?

[warm storm]

bis spec is still bis

[warm storm]

cannons

[narrow folio]

oh

[plain root]

Used the 99 sailing cape to tele my new trawler (that has a focus on it) to pandemonium and now the game wont let me tele it anywhere else and claims it needs a focus for the spell to work on it

[minor whale]

Wouldn't a 4t double hit 24-24 be pretty damn strong

Like approaching bp

[narrow folio]

this might be a new bug

[warm storm]

report in-game

[round lintel]

bowfa has same accuracy and in max is 51 max hit every 4 ticks

[narrow folio]

ralos technically scales better with gear right?

[warm storm]

in that it doesn't require crystal, yeah

[narrow folio]

each hit is 0-75%

75*2 is over 100

[round lintel]

actually with treads is 25-25

[narrow folio]

of course this doesnt actually mean it scales better because its atk speed is so slow but if it was 4t, that would be great

so is the goal to rival bowfa? a high accuracy solid dmg option?

[round lintel]

yeah but in max max range

[minor whale]

I don't think we need a bowfa alternative that also has a very useful spec for some places

Bowfa is the alternative

[round lintel]

and u need 1 splinter per shot to get the 25-25

[hard axle]

demonbane bow almost rivals bowfa in terms of sheer stats, but loses out once armor passive

its 124 + 40 (+55-60 depending arrow) versus 128 + 106

[narrow folio]

id like spec to be improved at least

[hard axle]

it beats out ralos even harder

[narrow folio]

bigger percentage of magic level or accuracy boost

[hard axle]

eh, I feel like the spec is fine but suffers the same scythe issue from 2018-2023

[round lintel]

4t ralos isnt even crazy pretty much it only use would be leviathan

[hard axle]

where they just kept designing new content

and the items didn't fit well with it

[thick beacon]

bgs/dwh gained more uses somehow but not ralos really idk

[hard axle]

cuz look at maiden and why it's used - u use ranged/melee and have folks that bring ranged gear

it has high magic level

and moderate defense level

[narrow folio]

capping defense all the time lately hasnt been good either

[thick beacon]

this just reminds me of inq/harm they have been waiting for 3years

or people forgot about them

[hard axle]

of course not

but tell jagex that lmao

[round lintel]

Harm idk what they could do to it

is very niche

[hard axle]

harm is easy dude

we had 2 cases of it

just high elemental weakness

[narrow folio]

that isnt a dragon 🤣

[hard axle]

pnm pillars + ice demon

just ramp up the elemental weakness to like 200%

and high stats everything else

[narrow folio]

such an arbitrary bandaid

[thick beacon]

its crazy even with that rework harm still isint really used for any endgame content

[round lintel]

probably if harm effect works on manually casting ancients

[hard axle]

yes and no

ancients is the same issue

[thick beacon]

they had to do all that just to finaly create a encounter in the "future" for it to be good

[hard axle]

u need a lot of targets

if jagex only made content with no aoe, you would say the same

we're saying exactly what they could do to it

same as ralos, same as scythe

just more use cases

they're so afraid of making 1-3 pieces of content where shadow loses to harm for some reason lol

[round lintel]

problem is that elemental weaknesses in some if not most bosses dont make sense

almost every new boss in the past 3 years have insane magic defence

[thick beacon]

i think theres other problems as well in hybrid content u lose thralls/dc thats a big blow even if mage dps is better sometimes

its rare to give up that

[tacit wharf]

other big one is jagex needs to get off its high horse and stop trying to make powere staffs the only option for magic at higher levels

so many different magicalical weaknesses and here we sit with, well lets just have powered staves always be BIS

[narrow folio]

they arent though

[round lintel]

tbf i love my ayak but id appreciate other options for mage than let me go get an ayak so then i get a shadow

because getting ward f takes tooooo much time

specially cuz corp sucks for irons

cant even use a horn on my self

or my main cant use the horn on me at corp

sucks that you have to make it a chicken

[warm storm]

ya there are just very few situations where magic level is high and defence drain is useful. ralos can easily become more useful with new targets

[thick beacon]

feel like in general jagex has been very bad at niche content they either create really op niches or just useless ones

spec weapons seem typically like the best use case of niche items

[round lintel]

any reason why regular ward is soooooo bad? stats are even worst than mages book except for 1% magic damage which doesnt do anything