game-update

[last onyx]

C-hally hits like 180 in total some times xD

[dire mango]

https://clips.twitch.tv/ShinyTransparentDootKeyboardCat-1rr08I01oUZKC6NZ synq on new pvm releases produces the most iconic clips.

[chrome lantern]

Just read the new blog on sailing proposals

Armadyl brew kinda weird

Also high-tier metal cannonballs sound pretty awful as a resource

I hope they don't expect us to actually do ship combat in large amounts

[wispy current]

So arma pot is 11 heal per dose and 13 range right?

[last onyx]

Seems like a good potion for fights like Muspah and Leviathan

[wispy current]

Zuk too

Prolly and gwd

[last onyx]

yeh

[ionic tartan]

Armadyl Brew drains magic, so not as good to use at muspah.

[last onyx]

Depends, it's good for slackers like me ;D

[ionic tartan]

I think you'll still want to mage levels at some point, unless you're not using death charge or thralls.

But helpful at zuk for sure.

[chrome lantern]

It's just weird to make a healing option also boost combat stats

[last onyx]

Super restore

[ionic tartan]

Yeah, but at that point why not just use brews+restore? You'll heal more.
(I'm not trying to say that it doesn't have its uses, just that it's more limited and niche due to that magic drain).

[austere mulch]

Sarah and forgotten brews alrdy do, zammy brew is rly the outlier at this point

[last onyx]

Yeh, but i also need range levels for t-bow camp

So there is a use for it 100%

Instead of brewing+super restore+ranging pot you can just arma pot+super restore.

[ionic tartan]

Oh, I just tele back with the ring. I don't use brews for muspah, only divine range pot+heart and the trips are decent length already.

[chrome lantern]

As I look further at the Sailing blog

[last onyx]

Yeh, this will just be a added bonus (free healing at no cost) in such scenarious. At Levi for example it's normal to bring a ton of brews as you take quite a bit of damage all the time so it'll be super useful there

[chrome lantern]

I honestly don't really like most aspects of it, especially from an ironman perspective

Upkeeping cannonballs seems pretty atrociously horrendous in particular, especially if there's no ammo-saving effect

None of the potions really need to exist to begin with, a super fishing potion doesn't really make sense when we already have Admiral pies

Extended stam sure since they already turbo killed off ring of endurance but input time/upkeep of those remains to be seen, probably ok

Deep Sea Trawling will be horrendous if they don't tremendously speed up farming harvesting speed and if they make producing the nets anything like Drift Nets

(The farming and spinning of Drift nets single-handedly takes the activity from being the single most efficient training method on mains to a waste of time on ironmen)

Especially considering the current proposal shows Flax/Hemp/Cotton -> Yarn -> Bolt -> Net as the production pipeline

The squid harpooning looks almost as dead content as current harpooning is

Overall, just seems like very undesirable gameplay loops, especially from an ironman perspective

Unfortunately, in the survey, I can't list all 11 options as the thing I'm "least keep to see at launch"

[small anvil]

etube what do you think of lvl 3s getting to bombard a shoreline

[chrome lantern]

I think it's pretty dumb

[small anvil]

thats my take too

i hate it

[chrome lantern]

Maybe add a "Sailing combat level" xd

Then you can have Sailing skillers, and normal Skillers

[small anvil]

i doubt any lvl 3 was crying to be able to kill other things

[chrome lantern]

(Or just make it use combat skills)

Really it should just use both Sailing and ranged

[small anvil]

the "pacifist" build equivalent shouldnt be able to massacre things

they have weird workarounds like poison dynamite

they shouldnt just get to kill things en masse

cuz its the ship doing it not them 🙃

and the justification sounds so weird

[ionic tartan]

Slayer meta for skillers is last hitting thing en masse with alts

[small anvil]

"en masse"

the xp rate for that is like what, <20k/hr?

you kill one thing at a time

and get half xp

and have to line it up with the alt

[ionic tartan]

Up to 30k+ an hour

[small anvil]

its not jagex hand holding you into making it an intended training method for lvl 3

[short belfry]

Did they give any ETA for the slayer sweep up update ?

I'd love me a Konar blocklist

[true talon]

We prob got another month of delve fixes just like yama

[chrome lantern]

Summer

[small anvil]

i get the feeling they're relatively satisfied with delve, maybe some bug fixes but wont change much

[ionic tartan]

Anyways, I think it's a spaghetti issue. Jagex can't restrict cannons to only sea without extra spaghetti.

[small anvil]

just give it range xp

the justifcation for not giving range xp is silly

[chrome lantern]

Ranged and Sailing would also uh

[small anvil]

so just... dont

[chrome lantern]

Just match everything else the Sailing skill interacts with

[ionic tartan]

Yeah, IRC from reddit they're looking at either all sailing or all ranging xp for ship cannons

[true talon]

I feel like spamming 1-4 at 2 mins a pop over this fucking deep delving shit, it literally produces nothing 🙁

[ionic tartan]

I wonder more about what shoreline combat looks like in the devs eyes

[small anvil]

think its just safespotting crabs lmao

or whatever else might be near a shore

you could go up rivers so that too prob

[ionic tartan]

Feels inconsequential if that's their future design though.

[brisk thorn]

Hey guys, I made some concepts for unique loot at delves, please let me know what you think & any traffic on the tweet is helpful just please don't be too hateful.

https://x.com/False_RS/status/1951015568632586495

FALSE (@False_RS)

Third and final concepts for unique drops at Doom

@OldSchoolRS

X · Jul 31, 2025, 8:22 PM

[ionic tartan]

Like idc if you can kill what we have on the shores currently, especially if it's a skiller that can't even telegrab loot.

[ionic tartan]

I like it, reminds me of purp light

[vestal cosmos]

Yeah 4 rune cannonballs per bar is gonna be atrocious compared to literally any other ammo type that works with Ava’s. Like are you going to have a giant magnet on your boat that you have to clean junk off of constantly to save ammo?

[brisk thorn]

yeah mate that's the idea, extra dopamine hits

[chrome lantern]

Surely it saves 99% of ammo if they expect us to use Rune or Dragon cannonballs

Also from a personal perspective

I smithed all 9k of my rune into bars -> 2h when I was maxing

[vestal cosmos]

And dragon cannonballs are going to be PvM drops like d arrows or throwing knives

[chrome lantern]

So like I'm just kinda screwed

[true talon]

they said they adding a chest or something to it

[chrome lantern]

That chest is for like

If you loot the delve into your inv but leave 500 earth runes in there

And tele out

[true talon]

oh really

[brisk thorn]

yeah it's like loot protection I think

[chrome lantern]

That was my impression

[brisk thorn]

my concept is just for the big ticket drops

[true talon]

that would be cool

[chrome lantern]

Alright I submitted my extended survey on the Sailing blog

[hasty shard]

tbh you can have crewmates man the cannons is the thing

[vestal cosmos]

What self-respecting Privateer would work for a coward who won’t even fight in self-defense?!

[hasty shard]

we can always hire a non self-respecting privateer

like another player

[vestal cosmos]

Checks out, lv 3s get boosted all the time

[chrome lantern]

Issues:
-Mining ores seem dead on arrival beyond bare minimum for shipbuilding, being worse than existing methods with higher requirements, and requiring worthless ores like Copper for Nickel.
-Lantern fishing seems designed to be as dead-on-arrival as regular Harpoon fishing already is.
-Trawling Net production seems like it will somehow be way worse than Drift Net production. The production loop on Drift nets single-handedly takes Drift Net Fishing from the single most efficient fishing method on a main, to a complete waste of time on ironmen. Farming hops is slow and rate-limiting, then this also proposes the loop of seeds -> farm -> harvest -> spin yarn -> weave bolt -> weave net.
-Armadyl brew is a 44 heal in one slot with a boosted combat stat.
-Hunter and fishing +6 not needed, especially with how close Admiral pies are to the +6 boost. Do not want a precedent set for boosting noncombat skills above +5 at all. Not even remotely.
-Cannonball upkeep seems like it will be a significant problem, especially for people who already used tens of thousands of runite ore for alchs and other stuff on ironmen. Even at 4x base speed (double mould + new facility), cannonball smithing is way too slow. Without ammo-saving, high-tier cannonballs will be prohibitively expensive if not produced in batches of tens to hundreds.
-Combat should require one to train combat. Most of the existing skills in the game are being integrated with Sailing, so why not Ranged? Ship-cannon-fire should give both Sailing and Ranged experience.

[sacred cove]

I hate when I agree with Etube

Demonic gorillas still suck though

[chrome lantern]

I just specifically joined the Sailing Discord to give my feedback in there too

Now I have posted it here, the Sailing Discord, and in the Survey.

[vestal cosmos]

Trawling nets I feel like should be very expensive materials-wise and untradeable (although the fabric is traded) but never break, so it’s like a permanent upgrade until you replace your boat

[chrome lantern]

I think that would be fine actually

Maybe that's the intent

But I want to keep it far from Drift nets which was my immediate feedback I had

But I mean

If you make them unbreakable facilities...

[sacred cove]

It would be nice for trawling to not suck like drift net fishing, so that irons have the option to do it. Using food other than bwans would be kinda neat.

[chrome lantern]

Then what do you do with the other hundreds or thousands of cotton/etc.? xd

[sacred cove]

Maybe something in-between where they last a good while, or you just have to repair them sometimes, but not one net per 10 fish, please no

[vestal cosmos]

Maybe instead of fully unbreakable you can bring extra fabric along to repair like 50 durability

[hasty shard]

+6 precedent already exists though

chefs delight m

[austere mulch]

Sailing combat not integrating with combat at all is just an insane reach. Especially when they use minigame cannons and their justification

[chrome lantern]

I guess so but that's not exactly common

[austere mulch]

Doesn’t even have to be range xp

Can be token hp xp

[chrome lantern]

I do think it should be ranged xp

As I stated, the majority of skills are already integrated into Sailing methods

[hasty shard]

honestly yeah hp xp

[chrome lantern]

I misspoke

HP also fine

[hasty shard]

even if it doesnt count for combat i get giving hp xxp

[chrome lantern]

But makes less sense than ranged

[hasty shard]

you are making your life longer by cannoning the shark trying to take ur ship down

[chrome lantern]

If we're talking "precedent" then Ranged+Sailing but not HP makes the most sense

[hasty shard]

if anything the cannon giving xp is weird in the first place considering its entirely autonomous

[vestal cosmos]

Unrelated, but cannon max hits should not be dependent on Sailing level but accuracy does increase.

[austere mulch]

Yeah the only reason why I think hp is a fine alternative is if they want to argue thematics with ranged being unique to Dwarf cannons, which I disagree with lol

But like

Their whole justification is crazy to me

If sailing is not a combat skill, then it should not have a combat option if it’s not a direct integration with combat skills

Or in a minigame type setting like zalcano

Example I gave is if we ever get the offshore drilling/excavating extension to ships, to collect ore and minerals from the sea floor, that should give mixed sailing and mining

Sailing combat is no exception

[nocturne solstice]

iunno it makes sense to me, like Zalcano does dmg but you dont get range xp

They said they'd add dwarven cannons if you wanted ranging xp though so thats still an option if you wanted a range training method

[chrome lantern]

I think precedent in general is kinda weak too though

[austere mulch]

It’s not range that I’m stuck on

It just needs to integrate with combat in some fashion at its core bc sailing is not a combat skill

[chrome lantern]

Yeah if I'm going to be real

My problem with it

[austere mulch]

Hp, range. Magic, doesn’t matter

[vivid ruin]

They need to add multi-player sailing ships and stop playing games

[chrome lantern]

Is that they're saying it "opens up new methods for skillers!" which is just saying, "Make the literal only restriction you placed on the account not matter"

[nocturne solstice]

Maybe I missed it and you said it early but why does it "need" to integrate with combat in the way you're describing?

scrolling up now to check btw

[austere mulch]

Because it’s a true overworld combat experience that will have pvm boss type content

[chrome lantern]

Should Sailing harvesting methods not give harvesting skill xp?

[austere mulch]

And a level 3 doing a pvm boss at the effectiveness as a level 126 makes zero sense

[vivid ruin]

https://tenor.com/view/pirates-des-caraïbes2-pirates-of-the-caribbean2-pirates-voilier-sailing-ship-gif-19753748

[austere mulch]

So either the boss needs to be minigame-esque like zalcano, temp. Or sailing combat needs to integrate with combat

[nocturne solstice]

I have no idea what you're talking about or why you're asking that since it seems completely different to what TM wants.

[chrome lantern]

It's the same argument

[nocturne solstice]

What you said here makes sense to me 🤔

[chrome lantern]

You're doing combat, so you get combat xp

You're doing fishing, so you get fishing xp

[nocturne solstice]

No it isnt cause I just said you have other cannons to give you xp in the combat stuff which would have addressed what you asked and TM there said he's not focused on ranged xp but "combat" as a whole. Which is what I wanted to know more about.

[true talon]

well we sent 1 attempt at 8.

1-7 was getting zzzzzz

[chrome lantern]

I mean really I am primarily concerned about combat

But ranged makes by far the most sense

Literally and thematically

Specifically, ranged+sailing

[vivid ruin]

https://tenor.com/view/pirate-ships-gif-27709281

Tbh

[chrome lantern]

Could even make it so that Sailing is ship-cannon "Attack" stat and Ranged is ship-cannon "Strength" stat

[nocturne solstice]

I definitely get what you mean about how it should give ranged xp

If there was a poll for it, I'd probably vote in your favour and have it add ranged xp to cannon fire

[chrome lantern]

It's also just a line they decided to draw that doesn't make sense, really.

[nocturne solstice]

imo, reading between the lines, it's implemented this way to cater to pures and skillers.

[chrome lantern]

Like by that logic, why are we giving fishing xp from deep-sea fishing? What if my account can't train fishing due to my restriction?

The game shouldn't cater to pures or skillers to begin with

If you want to do the activity, get the stat

If I want to do deep-sea trawling, I need to train fishing, if I want to use a cannon, I need combat stats

[austere mulch]

Yeah I agree with this

[hard axle]

[nocturne solstice]

I also agree with that, plus skillers and pures can level skilling by just not using cannons

[hasty shard]

i mean you can just train sailing without doing the cannon stuff tbf

[austere mulch]

Considering their entire section was about lvl 3s 💀 the only downside to having sailing combat integrate with combat is that lvl 3s won’t be able to do it without weird workarounds. But that’s nothing now and has always been the standard for combat

[nocturne solstice]

just trim the sails a lot or do salvaging

there's a lot of methods

[austere mulch]

And they would still have access to literally the other 99% of the skill

[chrome lantern]

Yeah so why let skillers use cannons xd

[nocturne solstice]

it would be a way to get mob drops without gaining combat xp

[chrome lantern]

Which isn't a good thing

"My account can't do combat, except when it's convenient for me"

[nocturne solstice]

It would "shake up the meta" for skillers and pures and would be more interesting for them at the expense of "logic" for us with xp gains.

[chrome lantern]

Yeah, and skillers would definitely have a different meta if they could train combat too xd

That doesn't make it make any more sense

[nocturne solstice]

I understand why they decided to go this way but I'm not a fan of it so I'll write that down in the survey

[chrome lantern]

If an HCIM could die, that would also shift the meta a lot

[nocturne solstice]

one free death would definitely shift the meta a lot

[austere mulch]

New Dwarf quest that gives a smaller cannon players can use on land for no xp

[hasty shard]

here's the kicker

[austere mulch]

Saw someone in sailing disc this morning say “skillers can’t use cannons for combat on land, why is being on a boat any different” and got chastised for it lol

[chrome lantern]

Interesting

[minor whale]

I kinda get their point though
They don't want you to be maxed out on sailing dps on release just by having 99 ranged, so making it scale with sailing is more organic

I don't really care either way

Sailing letting you do more damage while sailing is fine

But if they made it so higher leveled cannons or cannonballs required higher ranged + fm to use that'd be a neat balance

[nocturne solstice]

I think it would work best by having a max hit on cannons based on the cannon and cannonball. Kinda like standard spellbook offensive spells.

So even if you have 99 ranging, the bronze cannon can only hit up to 10 or something

maybe 6 idk

it might just mean you're more accurate with 99 range and rarely miss

[chrome lantern]

I'd be fine with it scaling with Sailing but it should ideally incorporate Ranged in some way, and it should definitely give combat xp in some way.

[nocturne solstice]

probably add some weird math to is like Accuracy = (Range/3)+(Sailing/2)

[chrome lantern]

I do stand by my earlier statement of Sailing -> Accuracy and Ranged -> Damage, with cannonball/ship facilities being "strength bonus"

[nocturne solstice]

Yeah that sounds good etube

[chrome lantern]

DPS is still tied to Sailing level heavily by accuracy and Sailing level being required for stronger cannons

[small anvil]

yeah, i just think the justification is awful

i dont have a skiller but i dont think they're crying cuz they cant kill things, that's the point of the restriction they chose

slayer on skillers is neat because it's hard to train

[nocturne solstice]

its probably moreso pures than skillers

[tacit wharf]

speaking honestly, fk em

[nocturne solstice]

tfw cannon accidentally gives def xp

[small anvil]

lots of pures have 99 range

like dont make it give def xp sure

but why accomodate lvl 3s?

[austere mulch]

Range lvl doesn’t need to affect max hits, and even if it did, there are plenty of ways to minimize the impact

[nocturne solstice]

Well what about the ones at a lower combat bracket that want to stay there and want to use sailing for the new blowpipes?

[tacit wharf]

really hate how we have to tip toe around skillers/pures/challenge accounts

[small anvil]

it just feels wrong in my head for lvl 3s to be able to bombard the shore and depopulate an area

just makes 0 sense

[sacred cove]

New blowpipes seem pointless

[austere mulch]

If it does integrate with range, then accuracy should be based on cannon tier and sailing level, and max hits should be based on ammo tier or ammo tier + range level

[small anvil]

if sailing was a combat skill then its a combat skill

but it's explicitly not a combat skill

[nocturne solstice]

It seems handy for irons that are bad at zulrah 🤔

[chrome lantern]

Ye that's what I said too

[small anvil]

sailing affecting accuracy makes total sense too

[chrome lantern]

I feel like it's way more for like, longer-ranged regular darts and crab training xd

[small anvil]

keep the ship steady

[tacit wharf]

actually why not just tie the cannon to a range level

[small anvil]

so you can hit what you want

[chrome lantern]

Hmmge cannon to ranged level makes sense too

[tacit wharf]

need x range level to use a bronze cannon

[chrome lantern]

You also implicitly limit max ammo tier

And thus maxhit

[small anvil]

the entire decision was built on the conclusion first, lets let lvl 3s do this, then justified backwards

and it makes no sense to do so

and i doubt any lvl 3s actually wanted it

[nocturne solstice]

Youd just throw knives at that point no? 🤔
Certainly dont need the extra range at crabs lmao

[small anvil]

it's not like not being able to use the cannons would have locked them out from the skill in the first place...

[tacit wharf]

they have other ways to train the skill

port tasks seems like a perfectly reasonable way for them to do it

[small anvil]

(i predict there's gonna be a quest with ship combat that they want everyone to be able to do which led to this decision)

[chrome lantern]

Yeah more for stuff like early ToA (swarms), Hespori, slayer luring

[austere mulch]

The irony of it all to me was them using minigames to justify it. Like… a minigame is the last parallel you want to make with sailing at this point when that’s been the meme for the past few years lol

[sacred cove]

If you are properly geared, I don't see how you can be bad at zulruh

[small anvil]

like lvl 3s have to resort to poison dynamite to kill things. Now we just say here, lemme pull up my boat and blast them

[sacred cove]

There's a whole plugin for snek

[nocturne solstice]

Irons tend not to be properly geared, thats kinda their thing

[small anvil]

if you wanna accomodate lvl 3s, then give a poison gas cannister shot

[chrome lantern]

To be clear

I do think Poison Dynamite can use some improvments

[small anvil]

it'll be thematic with what lvl 3s do right now

[chrome lantern]

When we compare it to older xp-avoidance methods that existed

It really kinda sucks

They did just add a second Belladonna patch which is huge for that though

But I think it would be reasonable for Dyanmite to stack, too at this point

[small anvil]

and it'll also be way different in a way that preserves the identity of what skillers engaging in killing things are doing right now

[sacred cove]

Not all of us 😉

[chrome lantern]

Especially with how little of a factor it is in Blast Mine

Either making regular or only poison dynamite stackable

[tacit wharf]

u mean bot mines

[chrome lantern]

Increasing nightshade yield

Reducing number of nightshade for a poison dynamite

[chrome lantern]

Make Poison Dynamite stackable only then

Sure

[austere mulch]

Poison buoys for skillers wanting to sailing combat

[tacit wharf]

the problem is, there are other ways to train sailing, that some snowflake account doesnt need access to the cannon

its really that simple

[chrome lantern]

Also kinda crazy that Armadyl potion is even proposed

44 heal per slot with a combat boost?

Even if literally only looking at Delve boss it's insane

[wispy current]

Less heal than a brew and its only good for ranged content

Seems fine

[icy relic]

would be nice, bring two arma brews instead of range pots

another combo eat

without tanking your stats

actually very powerful tbh

[chrome lantern]

I mean the issue is that there's not nearly as much drawback to sipping one as saradomin brews

[icy relic]

right

[chrome lantern]

It boosts a combat stat

Sara brews are just defense

[icy relic]

it's a really powerful repot

[chrome lantern]

Even if you only used them for like, Ranged phase and Deflect at Nex

That's insane

Then as mentioned, delve

[icy relic]

I don't think it's gamebreaking though

[sacred skiff]

Is it intentional that thralls don't attack Moki while he's shielding?

[nocturne solstice]

Yeah seems pretty intentional

[sacred skiff]

:(

[lone remnant]

alright i have a video of this mokha bug finally

how can i send it to jagex so its properly ignored

[nocturne solstice]

You could just report in game or send it to [e-mail]

[lone remnant]

ok buddy we both know they already ignore it

[nocturne solstice]

Then why did you ask

[lone remnant]

thought you guys had some backchannel wizardry i see now i was wrong

[nocturne solstice]

Iunno that sounds kinda silly, having 3 channels to do the exact same thing because everyone thinks the "other" channel is the faster one.

[small anvil]

wait arma brew heals 11 a sip? i thought it was 5, wonder what i read wrong

that's nutty

not only is it a range pot, it heals 2 hard food worth per slot too

and then you just use restores

[hasty shard]

or menaphite rem

or just double dose scb

[small anvil]

like sure you might not use it in all situations you wanna boost range if you're actively switching to mage/melee frequently

but that seems like a lot of extra healing for no reason when you're inventory constrained

[vestal cosmos]

Yeah the strongest proposed blowpipe can only use adamant darts and they will still be worse for max hits than rune darts. The marginally increased accuracy isn’t important either because either A. use throwing knives or B. you don’t dart things with defense.

[small anvil]

were stats given for the bps?

[chrome lantern]

10%+2

[austere mulch]

The new bps are legit worse than knives, msb, atlatl, or rcb in basically any given scenario

[small anvil]

they're just a buff to early game progression when you'd be afking by darting crabs or smth

[chrome lantern]

It's basically just an ironman budget aggroing item and kephri swarming

[vestal cosmos]

Yeah the rosewood bp was 22 acc 4 str but can only use up to adamant darts

[austere mulch]

Only potentially good for a random region locked or skill locked account

[vestal cosmos]

The thing is you’d make knives instead on an iron anyway.

[hasty shard]

they are more dps on ammonites i think 😭

thats it

[chrome lantern]

Nah you only get half as many

Not worth

[hasty shard]

just one more early game range weapon bro

[chrome lantern]

Not even worth making darts these days tbh

For low tier darts

[vestal cosmos]

Oh I didn’t know the quantity was less

[small anvil]

also its fletching xp

[austere mulch]

Also why are they proposing 37 tiers of cannonballs

[small anvil]

idk, i just know addy darts are dirty cheap to toss at crabs

[chrome lantern]

Yeah darts are twice as many and fletching xp, but if you're hurting that hard for ammo or xp then you should use the bars at Foundry instead

[austere mulch]

Do we really need bronze iron steel black mith

[small anvil]

oh wait, blowpipes are 2h right

[chrome lantern]

On an iron, that is

[chrome lantern]

Not really

[small anvil]

does this even out compete the new offhand

[chrome lantern]

Antler guard is only +2 so yes

And less accuracy

[small anvil]

ah ok

[hasty shard]

why did they bin the larch blowpipe

[small anvil]

so yeah, it might show up there i guess

where you'd be slapping darts at crabs

for 0 time afk combat

[hasty shard]

im assuming they have more range than normal darts

[small anvil]

kinda seems like a nothing dealio, unless it means that they want to make a new bp past toxic

[hasty shard]

so youd use uh, whatever the mith one is for tagging

[small anvil]

(that's so dangerous and silly if they did that)

lower tier blowpipe just isnt a big deal cuz bp is a monster mostly cuz of the scaling with range str

[vestal cosmos]

Maybe if they add a Scylla and Charybdis boss later you can get a Charybdis Fang to make a bp with +6 acc and +2 max hit over toxic, seems like a marginal enough upgrade comparing anything else to blowpipe

[small anvil]

2 max hits on bp is so much

[sacred skiff]

Teleports are criminally rare at this boss

[sacred cove]

Wait, I did not think about this, I changed my mind. I do think the higher one should be able to use the rune though.

[small anvil]

that's 1.4 dps extra from where tbp is

wait 1.66

[vestal cosmos]

0.7 extra DPS

[austere mulch]

Yeah 2 maxes on bp is insane lol

[small anvil]

oh i forgot to halve it

but its still a crazy amount

.833 extra dps

with more cuz you gave it extra accuracy too

[vestal cosmos]

+6 accuracy compared to like 100+ with full Masori

[small anvil]

dont ignore the .83 extra dps just from max hits =/

[vestal cosmos]

Maybe only one max hit if it’s too strong, I don’t see an issue with 5% extra DPS after 10 years though

[small anvil]

uh .83 is more than 5%

you're doing like 10 ish dps on things usually?

[austere mulch]

It’s been 6 going on 7 years and in that time we’ve only gotten 3 melee max hits

Kinda crazy

[vestal cosmos]

What does full max bp hit currently?

[small anvil]

oh right i wasnt taking accuracy into account

max max bp with new boots im not sure

it's not 40 tho

[austere mulch]

34 in void if taking ring

33 without

And 32 in max (off task) with or without ring

Also +2 base max hits will pretty commonly be +3 on task with rounding

Bp just scales absurdly as you increase max

[small anvil]

ok 5.9% dps increase for 2 max hits if we take 34 as the max, 6.25 for 32

[vestal cosmos]

I think a 6% DPS increase after over a decade is pretty fair, especially considering bp has gotten 6 max hits from indirect upgrades since its release

[icy relic]

Even a single max hit on BP is pretty crazy

[vestal cosmos]

If a blowpipe upgrade is released after a decade and it only gives one max hit from a direct upgrade I think it would be pretty underwhelming

[austere mulch]

Just bc it’s gotten dps increase from gear doesn’t invalidate that tho

The problem with upgrading bp is it’s really hard to scale with other range gear releases

Bp pre nerf bottlenecked all range progression basically

[vestal cosmos]

Not saying they have to give a bp upgrade now but if they do make one it should be at least two max hits

[austere mulch]

And still does to an extent

Even just a more accurate version would be juiced tbh

[icy relic]

BP was nerfed for a reason

[sacred cove]

I really dislike how they bunch a lot of things together in the polls. Like the forge that makes cannonballs faster sounds nice, but all of the different cannonballs and hull materials seem convoluted.

1 kind of cannonball is fine, the skill is not naval warfare, it's sailing

[vestal cosmos]

Balancing wise it would be silly but adamant cannonballs “should” hit hardest since addy is the heaviest base metal 😁

[icy relic]

How is it convoluted? You're doubling the world map and basically adding a new PoH

Only makes sense to get some new resources for that, no?

[sacred cove]

Does not really make sense to make new resources for 15 other skills for a single new skill, no

Convoluted

[chrome lantern]

Surely bank slots

[vestal cosmos]

If sailing was just “a bunch of new inconveniently placed areas with no new stuff to do there” it would be more boring than agility

[icy relic]

For how ambitious the scope of sailing is, it better have a new slayer master and raid too down the road

[ember token]

i believe there's 2 reasons for the hull materials, one being that as they're like a condensed form of resources, so you can build something using way more planks/bars than you would usually be able to fit in your inventory, and two, it means unless they add the hull materials to drop tables, it means you NEED the construction/smithing/whatever levels to make them, can't just ignore smithing and use runite bars you got as a drop to upgrade your ship

[icy relic]

The fresh item economy is so important here

So you can't prebank 99/merch supplies that are used for other skills

[vestal cosmos]

Raid 4: Temple of Aminishi? Wait ToA is taken. Temple of the Sacred Dragon? No that sounds dumb. Temple of Seriyu? Sounds too legalese ||Terms of Service||. Any ideas then?

[icy relic]

Unironically I think Seiryu would be a better fight in OS than RS3 lol

Also we haven't gotten a proper dragon showdown for a while

[violet sigil]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrjJS92xKjk

[kind surge]

beware of the spinny boi and whirlpools

[violet sigil]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_etfMUtB3Ag

only requirement for osrs seiryu should be similar instruments if possible

[austere mulch]

Bc there’s no need for 10 tiers of cannonballs when people won’t ever use half of them. And then on top of that, each of the 10 tiers has 3 versions. Standard, stun, burn

It’s just a lot of bloat for zero

Can accomplish the same without having all that. Even just a low medium and high tier of cannonballs is plenty

[hard axle]

its basically just a more accessible non-zulrah bp

[austere mulch]

I also really am not keen on the idea of a sailing* raid bc the idea of locking an entire raid worth of content to being on a boat feels weird. And if they have it so part of the raid is on your boat and part isn’t, then I’d imagine the pacing/transitions to and from would be hella jank

[hard axle]

skilling needs armor/gear

before we talk about raids

and somehow has micro gains because you can't really do much when most skilling is do this, 80% chance of get 1 log

[small anvil]

it'll be armor plates that have to be replaced

🙃

[icy relic]

They can tune the number of things to be added for sure

but there are so many things in existing skills like smithing that could be considered bloat if it was just dropped into the game

[austere mulch]

Yeah for sure

[icy relic]

I think the major question is will it feel like it has always belonged in the game years down the road

[austere mulch]

That’s rly part of why I hope they reduce it with sailing

Some is fine, but if it’s excessive it gets weird

[hard axle]

water agility

[icy relic]

If it feels like you have to play the sailing minigame to access half the things in the skill book maybe that's not the best design

but idk

I hope they find a good balance

[austere mulch]

Especially if they’re also going to have different cannon types for different combat styles and presumably equally bloated ammo options

Like if we end up in a place where there are 60 different options for ammo, that’s insane 🤣

[icy relic]

They also have to balance snowflake accounts and making a non-combat "combat" skill

so yeah they have their work cut out for them

[austere mulch]

Ye regardless, I’m gonna have to get 99 to keep max cape, so it doesn’t matter in that regard. Just hope they can at least have it be sensible and consistent with other aspects of the game

The less consistent, the more minigame it’ll feel

[small anvil]

their version of "as if it was always part of old school" is to have multiple useless tiers ofc

[austere mulch]

[icy relic]

^

[small anvil]

fix smithing? nah lets just make everything else like smithing!

[austere mulch]

Ah man, I’m all out of mithril burn cannonballs for my dwarvern sailing cannon. I’ll have to start using some of my stun adamant cannonballs or switch to my sailing cannon so I can use my standard rune cannonballs

[icy relic]

RS3 mining/smithing overhaul was received pretty well

no longer level 90 for useless rune equipment

[small anvil]

smithing is from when people needed a reason to lvl things beyond just getting 99 for max

i guess

[true talon]

nah its for processing rune ore from bosses

[small anvil]

i'm obviously talking about the early days

[tawdry portal]

personally the thing that makes me excited about the sailing stuff is fabric crafting

i was just thinking the other day that crafting could use smth like that; it seems strange to me that crafting mage armor is so severely limited compared to all other kinds of armor

sure it'd be rate limited because of the pain in the ass that is farming but i just like being able to make my own stuff

i ground out 81 rc just so i could make my own bloodbark

so adding all these varieties of fabric into the game could open the door for RC being more useful early/mid game if you can enchant some linen/hemp/cotton mage armor to fill in the gap between zammy robes and mystic

xerican was kinda supposed to fill that role it feels like but lizardmen are level 53 and use poison which is pretty scary to a low-level player and by the time i was confident enough to fight lizardmen i'd well outgrown xerican

like there's straight up nothing for a low-level account between the basic bitch zammy/wizard robes and mystic for the longest time and it's so weird. i feel like part of the early game progression is the satisfaction of blowing past all these milestones where you upgrade from bronze to iron to steel armor, or leather to hard leather to studded leather

adding something like that for mage would be really nice i think!

[tacit wharf]

there doesnt need to be something between normal wizard robes and mystics

[tawdry portal]

okay yeah but your garden doesn't need to have flowers in it

[tacit wharf]

to be quite honest, low level magic gears is bloated enough as it is

[tawdry portal]

??

im thinkin between 1 and 40, imo the mid-tier armor starts at splitbark

[tacit wharf]

anything between lvl 1 and 40 is relatively the same thing

you can even through lunar armour in there as well

[tawdry portal]

lunar armor requires 65 magic though i can understand why you'd lump it in because it's pretty dogwater lol

[tacit wharf]

the difference between mystic and split bark, its 3 magic accuracy

which to be fairy magic acc isnt really all that important for most things

[tawdry portal]

the difference between mystic and splitbark for an iron is 26 magic levels unless you feel like grinding slayer mobs

[tacit wharf]

u aint grinding for splitbark though

yr going straigh to ahrims or bluemoon

[hard axle]

If they want to retroactively fix Ancestral, make it drop as Ancestral Cloth and tie it to some form of RC/Crafting (aka Warding without Agility) and it’ll instantly halve the hours needed to get full ancy

[tawdry portal]

you make a lot of assumptions about my playstyle friend

[tacit wharf]

cuz your nothing sitting in that 1-40, 40-70 for very long

[hard axle]

^yep and the only time they add something in those ranges is if for some reason it nearly matches late game gear or endgame BIS

[tawdry portal]

i am what one would call a casual, i log in once every so often to do woodcutting on another monitor. i tend to go for skill stuff over combat stuff because i can't really concentrate on sitting down and grinding barrows for 10 hours a day

[tacit wharf]

god forbid they do something about splashing again

go do a few hrs of magic training arena

[tawdry portal]

also i just want more avenues for crafting xp because crafting on an iron is such a pain in my ass

[tawdry portal]

again: i ground out full bloodbark because i felt like it

is it better than infinity? probably not but i like it :)

[tacit wharf]

mage gear isnt worth the effort

from wizard robes to mystic to bluemoon/ahrims

[tacit wharf]

this was meant more of just getting yr magic level up

for those lower levels

[tawdry portal]

ok but that's like. the problem that my suggestion is aiming to solve? sure for a certified Good At The Game Person who knows to just beeline the most efficient shit possible yeah just go do mage training 4head

but i think it'd be nice for the casual person who isn't looking to speedrun theatre of blood solo or whatever

[tacit wharf]

its just not worth the effort for marginal gains at that point

[tawdry portal]

i do kinda genuinely wonder why twinflame staff is a situational bis

i don't feel like i should be getting bis when i'm still level 90 combat lol

not that i'm COMPLAINING

[tacit wharf]

its bis at that point in time for elemental spells

[tawdry portal]

yeah just get tumenken's shadow 4head

anyhow i still think doing more with fabric crafting would be cool and i don't care if it wouldn't help endgame players

[sacred skiff]

Bloodbark looks cool and is good until Virtus though

[tawdry portal]

this guy gets it

i also like the journey i went on to get it

more stuff like that where you have to go find the enchanting scroll to learn how to make the armor and then use RC to enchant it could give more of a reason to bother with RC other than, uh, runes

i guess that kinda runs into Imbuing territory but i feel like the big reason imbuing failed is because it didn't really need to be its own skill

anyhow in regards to the other stuff i don't know how i feel about power creeping stamina and energy potions but i'm also not at the point yet where i'm really using that stuff constantly, i can't even make stams yet so idk if that's qol that people have been crying for

midgame blowpipes look cool, it did seem weird that the toxic blowpipe was the only one

probably won't use them but i think they're nice to have as options

[hasty shard]

i dont think we need like three of them tbh

hell just make it 1 that does nothing but increase the range of darts

and then like +4 str to make up for losing shield slot

[tawdry portal]

hmm i feel like i'm missing something b/c i'm the kind of person who likes more options even if they're incremental at best but i'm getting the sense that people don't like that

but like, that's early game runescape in a nutshell. bronze to iron is basically meaningless but it still feels big because you have a shiny new thing

i agree that cupronickel requiring copper is kind of a pain because iirc there's not really any way to get copper in bulk? mining minigames tend to start at coal/gold/mith and go up from there and don't bother with lower-level ores, so it's basically JUST mining rocks and that'll make a big rush on copper rocks when sailing first comes out. not that copranickel is intended to be an efficient method of training smithing, i suppose...

seems like something you'd get enough of to upgrade your ship and never think of again, which is kinda lame

[sacred skiff]

Yeah that was legit one of the things I was like ehhh about in the blog

Was how am I gonna get a bunch of copper

Ig you can buy at blast furnace, but I thought I was free from there at 99 smithing

[tawdry portal]

yeah

you can buy at blast furnace or in mor ul rek but that's kinda it

the monsters with best drops are sulphur lizard and sulphur nagua at 10-15 noted ore at 1/42 droprate which is

ehhhhhh i'd rather just mine it

the issue is that copper has been completely useless for so long that nobody really pays attention to it except when they need like, a bronze whatever for a clue scroll

and the devs haven't bothered adding in better ways to get it because who the fuck cares about copper

so now that it's suddenly relevant again it's kinda ???

[hard axle]

jagex is giga afraid of making elemental spells good because bis would be harm

but will slap on a 70-90% alternative of harm

[tawdry portal]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[tawdry portal]

so afraid that even during leagues, the item they specifically made to buff elemental spells was still dogwater

i'm still mad i went mage during raging echoes and mage was the worst combat style by a wide margin...

then again skill issue on my part ig, picking mage and then varlamore

didn't read that you need to melee perilous moons lol

personally i think that if they want teak and mahogany to be best xp/hr for construction, they should just nerf the xp from the new hardwoods rather than chicken out on using them for housing. poh is literally THE place where personalization matters the most imo, i don't care about the xp/hr just give me more options for a fancy table

then again that's a bunch of work that needs to be done so i understand not wanting to do it now

gotta ship the update and all

[ember token]

yeah its probably more that they dont want to make assets for a bunch of new furniture

[tacit wharf]

just be more bloat in the construction skill

if they kept adding stuff to make in the poh

[tawdry portal]

yeah bro why bother making different hairstyles for people it's just more bloat

everyone should just play a bald dude in a green shirt everything else is just bloat

[tawdry portal]

i do concede that's probably more the case that they just don't want to make the assets but i don't like saying "this is never gonna happen", because like. it's a player owned house and people are gonna want to personalize it

if you don't wanna do it right now that's fine, this is the sailing update not the construction update

focus on getting the update you wanna get out and don't get distracted by pet projects

but i think it'd be a good idea to leave the door open for little things down the road

[hard axle]

I am a meta monkey - I watched people play day 1-2 and then I hop in

since there's no reset button on relics

[tawdry portal]

but also like, if they don't want better xp/hr training methods, what's stopping people from just farting out rosewood hull parts

[hard axle]

I played an off-meta build during leagues 4

on an alt

and I hated it

melee so damn fucking weak

[tawdry portal]

like sure you can't make furniture with it but rosewood is still 190 xp/plank and you use them to make hull parts at 5 a pop

the only way that's not better xp/hr is if making hull parts takes excruciatingly long

the real answer to "why not use rosewood for construction xp" is money because it's 5 times as expensive as mahogany

7500 gp per plank adds up ridiculously quickly

to do some quick and shitty math, going from 90 to 91 with rosewoods (assuming you get the plank xp and nothing else) would take 2,829 planks

aka 21 mil

same grind with mahogany planks is 3975 planks aka 5.9 mil

so you're paying almost 4x the gp cost to level up in about half the time, and if we're pretending rmt doesn't exist then you're presumably putting time into the game in other ways to get the money you'd be spending to make the construction grind faster

but, eh

feel free to correct me if the math doesn't shake out

i'm also like, completely ignorant of the current state of the market because i only play iron, so if it turns out that 21mil is secretly a trivial amount of money and this would actually totally snap the construction grind in half and i'm just wrong then uhh

¯_(ツ)_/¯

but iirc the original intent of construction was a money sink to take gp out of the economy and combat inflation and people spending several more million gp to make their grind 50% faster would probably do that

but for a dumb iron who is impressed by a cash stack of 5 mil, using rosewoods for training seems so absurdly, prohibitively expensive that i wouldn't consider it over mahogany

even just the bump from mahogany to camphor is 3 million more gp for needing 500 less planks? the bump from teak to mahogany is a tradeoff of 3mil gp for ~2000 less actions so it's kinda diminishing returns for the money you're pouring into the Construction Hole

the real answer is to train construction to 99 at wintertodt because you still don't have the book of fire after 200mil firemaking xp

[sharp cave]

yeah sailing is turning out to be exactly what dungeoneering was

a heap of different skills mashed together into a minigame masquerading as a skill

[ember token]

nope

https://tenor.com/view/grinch-meme-grin-gif-12994505

[sharp cave]

https://tenor.com/view/funny-lol-happy-laughing-point-gif-15931453

[tacit wharf]

not even close

[hard axle]

Water agility

[tawdry portal]

i like sailing just because it means i don't have to pay the stupid charter ships every time

fuck you buddy i got MY OWN RIDE

(paddles away on a dinky little raft, immediately gets consumed by a kraken)

[junior kettle]

Is there a plugin that tells you how much dmg your attack dealt instead of showing some xp drops?

[nocturne solstice]

kinda

[tawdry portal]

it's called looking at the hitsplat

[nocturne solstice]

"Customizable Xp Drops" has the predicted hit bit

its based off the xp so its sometimes not 100% accurate

[hard axle]

It’s generally only out of sync during week of release or when there’s a wonky multiplier

And there’s a way to force it even during day of release now iirc

But manual mapping

[hasty shard]

and doom is wonky multiplier

[rare grotto]

copper in bulk is on ge, no?

[hasty shard]

i think

[tawdry portal]

ok but what if you're an ironman

[rare grotto]

shouldn't have the game catered to you 👍

[nocturne solstice]

They'd just have to mine some copper I guess

[rare grotto]

what??? the self sufficient game mode has to get things themselves??

i am in disbelief

[tawdry portal]

sounds like fun when every single copper rock is being botted to shit because copper prices spike on ge

[rare grotto]

classic ironman deflecting to botting

u can log in rn and find copper rocks m8

damn found some

[nocturne solstice]

I get the concern but cmon man, copper ore is one of the most plentiful ore in the game and takes like 3 seconds to respawn. No one is gunna have a hard time getting copper ore.

[ember token]

sorry irons, better get mining that copper

us mains will be using a little something called the grand exchange

but actually though [[ore seller.]]

[ornate wolf]

Wiki links found:
https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Ore_seller.

[ember token]

4 gp per copper ore

heck you can even buy copper ore for tokkul

it might as well be free

[fossil epoch]

Thanks for ruining soups next money maker video

[shadow wave]

Hey, if you buy 100 million copper now for 4 gp and it goes up to 5 that's 100mil gp for free

[fossil epoch]

goes up to 5?

https://i.imgur.com/qjPg6sJ.png

You 4x you money right there

[still sundial]

personally I love that they're using an existing low level ore for a new higher tier alloy, it feels very OSRS to me

might be my favorite part of the whole blog in fact

[hasty shard]

the fact they arent using the normal ore rock models for these is tilting me lmao

[still sundial]

now that you mention that, I thought the mining intergration was supposed to come in the form of mineral dredging using a ship facility

rather than just having new rocks in new areas

[plucky roost]

Deep sea mining was floated as an idea very early on, in a sailing rewards blog. Since then, they may have dropped that idea.

I think it mentioned being able to mine coral from the ocean floor. But now they’ve opted for you to grow the coral with the farming skill instead.

[ember token]

they didnt drop the idea, they just picked only one of the multiskill methods (deep sea trawling) to add at launch

[meager flame]

I kinda think they shouldn't delay any of that stuff even if it makes them push sailing back a little bit

I get the feeling a lot of that stuff might not happen or that nobody will care if they wait too long

[austere mulch]

It’s like ordering a grocery delivery and having a few of the items be delivered late because they didn’t have it available for the original delivery r/mildlyinfuriating

[meager flame]

It'll just be weird because theres a bit of a window for how long a low end part of a skill is something most players care about

Like sure if they add a level 90 mining deep sea method people would care but if they wanted one at level 20

Better talk about that before everyone is 60 levels past ever caring

[austere mulch]

I also would’ve liked for it to come on release, but for a bit of a different reason. I have no doubts that it would provide mixed sailing + mining xp and that makes the perfect example of sailing integrating with another skill and sharing the experience gained, which should be the obvious expectation when you’re doing anything that is in relation to two different types of skills

[meager flame]

They just have to be careful to not wait too long

A lot of decent ideas could quickly turn into something that people genuinely dont really care much for anymore

Amd them who knows how long if ever before they try it

And*

[austere mulch]

I think we’ll prob get like a 6-9 mo period initially after launch where most updates are focused around sailing, similar to what happens around leagues but with a longer duration. Not that I think that’s ideal, but wouldn’t be surprised

[meager flame]

Bc theyre obviously not going to go all in on adding content that people aren't interested in

[austere mulch]

And then like a pause of 12mo+ with minor updates between

[meager flame]

Well we kinda already know

Theyre doing vampires and another raid in that window

I almost think theyre going to kind of abandon sailing for awhile after release outside of fixes and maybe a little roadmap

Bc their more important devs are going to be gone working on things like raids

[fossil epoch]

You do kinda have to let sailing settle to some point before you do too much to it tbh. Besides the fixes

[austere mulch]

Reeaaaaally hoping they can deliver on raids 4 as a true piece of end game team content

They’ve got a lot of momentum rn and that’d be peak

[frail bough]

ngl id sorta love a raid where its 3 man max and puts a lot of emphasis on each person being a specific combat style

[plush gull]

when is slayer update

[frail bough]

this month

[true talon]

No

[frail bough]

👍

[true talon]

Don’t need another tob

Osrs unique identity is that you do not require anyone to play, you are free to pvm on your own time. And you can leave the game and come back anytime. Forcing grouping and other nonsense like tob does introduces being unable to send anytime you want and instead involves looking for teammates, waiting around for people and being at risk of their mistakes for your enjoyment.

While I do think group content is good for those who want to go though all that, osrs content should be solo and scale up to group.

Like chambers

That’s what separates osrs from every other mmo

Forced grouping decentivizes people from engaging with content. It’s why tob is considered the worst raid to get into. And why scythe was 350m when the only content it was good for was tob.

[obsidian venture]

:Tassilichatting:

[hoary granite]

Tell me you have no friends, without telling me you have no friends.

[true talon]

This is were your wrong but ok

[hoary granite]

Tobs easy to get into if you have friends js

[true talon]

Yea so? Maybe my friends aren’t on, maybe I’d like to send tob? Or practice mechanical improvements for when we can send. I guess I’ll go grief some random 416 party to do that.

[hoary granite]

Theres entry mode and simulators to prepare you for 416

[true talon]

It’s overall bad design

[hoary granite]

Its the best raid in the game

[true talon]

It’s not

[hoary granite]

It is, its just gatekept

[true talon]

It being the best is a loud minority of elitist.

[hoary granite]

I mean you can say that but it doesn't make it true. Go to 416 and look at the pop vs say, 329 at toa

They already said the next raid would be like tob, because its universally seen as the best

[true talon]

If it’s like tob and not soloable it will flop. If it’s like tob and soloable and has elements like chambers. It will be good.

Just make raid with no stupid puzzles and the raid becomes the best

That’s all tob has going for it over chambers and toa

[hoary granite]

You're just ignorant and wrong, group content forces community. If everyone can solo it'll end up like toa where everyone just plays by themselves and doesn't interact with the community

[true talon]

If toa was 4 bosses and wardens then it be considered the best raid

[white narwhal]

This would be ideal honestly

[true talon]

I don’t think I am.

No1 wants forced community, just look at nex.

[white narwhal]

Definetly more on point than tob is just superior

[hoary granite]

nex is the way it is because its click yellow simulator, not because you have to have people to do it

Nice try coping tho

Nex ffa cc you can be in the nex room in 30 seconds

416 you can be in tob in 30 seconds

Your problem is no one will take you cause you're probably a greifer xD

[true talon]

Yea you can also be outside tob in 30 seconds of maiden freezer is bad.

[hoary granite]

LOL

Be north freeze you catch n1234

all the piles, doesn't matter how bad sfrz is

You'll never wipe

[restive siren]

Plenty of people dont want to play in groups. Just hard to tell how much of the playerbase exactly

[white narwhal]

Forced group content is an L

[hoary granite]

And thats why theres plenty of solo content

[true talon]

What? This is always the argument used when I bring something up lol. You are against this, because your bad or no1 will group with you.

[hoary granite]

Either that or you're lazy and don't want to put the work in

[restive siren]

yama and titans were pretty good, they are easier/faster to complete in a group but fine to do solo

[true talon]

Mostly what I state is not of self interest (outside of d arrows)

[restive siren]

let people who want to solo solo

🤷‍♂️

[hoary granite]

Not all content should be created for one group of people

[white narwhal]

I mean multiple ppl agree and one person apprehensive as usual

[hoary granite]

We scratched the solo/duo itch, now we need a group raid

Mohka- solo, yama solo duo, twin giants solo duo

[tiny dew]

Theres a shit ton of solo content in the game. Its okay if 1 or 2 pieces of content require groups and quite frankly there should be more group locked encounters

[restive siren]

its not created for solo people if its better to do in a group

[true talon]

Anyone wanting group content is often just some service seller or streamer or looking to be carried. See how dumb it is when you make these statements?

[hoary granite]

LOL

[tiny dew]

Or just want to game and have a good time with friends???

[white narwhal]

Raids are group content of course they’ll stay that way

[hoary granite]

GIM btw

[quiet plank]

The group content they've added recently gives you shit rewards if you're carried

[true talon]

Yes so why is everyone not wanting it to be soloable and then have a grouping option like chambers?

[hoary granite]

Because we have lots of solo content already, plenty of new solo content aswell

We want a new group content boss

[white narwhal]

Ppl dont want group content to avoid this exact situation

[true talon]

Is your fear of efficiency or friends obsession mean everyone will choose to solo over carry you?

[hoary granite]

I mean I have a duo tob kc, so I don't think i'm getting carried

I just enjoy playing with others, its fun

[tiny dew]

What, its simply more fun to play the game with friends

[true talon]

Focused solo with scaled grouping aspects is always better, esp in a game with a stand alone game mode

[hard axle]

I’m generally fine with soloable raids IF they aren’t downplaying the difficulty just to make it soloable.

For example, if you’ve done Yama contracts for tradeable rewards, you’d know how much more difficult it is solo.

[tiny dew]

Solo tob is how raids should be soloable

Not solo toa

[hard axle]

I’m talking like Wave 8 Delve level of mechanics that you have to deal with by yourself

[true talon]

I agree, however I don’t think the difficulty should come from unavoidable damage or dps checks.

[hard axle]

it should to some extent

[hoary granite]

I agree, unavoidable damage, but not dps check

[hard axle]

Because you shouldn’t be expected to deal with all mechanics by yourself

and if you want to, deal with it

[meager flame]

tbh i think the topic is just weirdly polarizing

[hard axle]

It’s like if I told you to solo freeze, sometimes shit will leak

[tiny dew]

Obelisk dealing guarenteed dmg is the only good part about solo toa

[hoary granite]

Also, i'm literally the owner of a tob discord that teaches learners, so typically i'm the one carrying, still more fun

[true talon]

Right but if it does, it’s not a wipe just a bit harder fight

[meager flame]

theres no reason jagex can't or shouldn't have a properly balanced and tuned solo and group version of a raid

like people think its one or the other

they should do both

they have done both

lmao

like

idk

[true talon]

Chambers

[hoary granite]

chambers has unavoidable damage the entire last fight

[meager flame]

that should be our expectation of them

[hoary granite]

You're 50/50ing every prayer

[tiny dew]

The one time they intended for a raid to be soloable it became the worst raid in the game

[hoary granite]

ANd you say its good game design just cause it can be solod

[white narwhal]

Unavoidable no win scenario mechanics like chip damage just shouldn’t be a design choice either way even if it’s not “doable” solo tbh

[meager flame]

yeah but its not properly tuned and balanced

the reason toa solo sucks is because they refused to do that

[true talon]

Don’t matter, you can solo the boss with good gameplay, really Olm should have reactive autos, but people think it be to easy then.

[tiny dew]

Toa solo is the most balanced solo raid

[meager flame]

they didn't sit there and figure out how to make mechanics work well solo

they just said fuck it and removed them

and stuff like that

[true talon]

When I think of a good boss, I think of sol heredit

He is punishing, but rewarding

[meager flame]

its not that the idea cant work

its that they did bad work

thats all

[true talon]

You can do sol with 0 damage taken of your good enough

[hard axle]

Sol is not what I would call punishing lol

[tiny dew]

Idk I think raids should be exclusively group content

[meager flame]

i just dont think there is a good reason for jagex to exclusively cater to solo or groups ultimately

[hard axle]

Bro is 0 damage and even when you take damage, it’s slow as heck between attacks and maxes 40

[true talon]

Being hit 40s by type less damage is not punishing?

[hard axle]

with how slow it is?

It’s like 6-8t between attacks

[meager flame]

like personally if i were making a raid

i would just make the raid and then sort of problem solve and adjust things for a solo version release later on

once we see how its actually being done

they might not even have to do that if they luck into it like cox did

[tiny dew]

I just dont see why raids have to be soloable

[restive siren]

because it makes more people engage with them

[white narwhal]

Most the tech is arguably not figured out by groups

[hard axle]

Yeah, fundamentally speaking, due to how ticks work, when you design content for one person, the amount of mechanics you can shove in inherently limited.

this is not up for debate

Even if you made cooldowns 1t, there’s an upper limit to everything

[meager flame]

the whole problem with toa is that they tried to do both at the same time and instead of making it a good experience

they just said oh that wont work solo? deleted

[hard axle]

That’s why team toa felt like shit

[meager flame]

like there was no actual thought process behind it

it would be like if we released a tob solo version and instead of figuring out how to make sote balls work by having you run to a spot or whatever

we just said yo

[true talon]

Other than ahhka and poop from kephri what mechanic don’t work in solo but works in group

[meager flame]

ball deleted

[hard axle]

exactly - medic and lv2+ transition isn’t great in solo, but it’s a nonissue in teams.

[hard axle]

We go over this everytime and I’ve replied this to you 8 times

[true talon]

Ya well I forgot

[finite tapir]

sol is definitely not "punishing" lol

[meager flame]

they just have to properly take their time and make it a good experience

[finite tapir]

considering i've seen people die to doom 1 before they die to sol, shows that sol is not punishing

[hard axle]

I’m gonna shove a moodeng down ur throat

[finite tapir]

if sol was "punishing" you would find it harder to die to doom 3 than to sol

[hard axle]

But yeah, I’m still upset they removed the one good team interaction which was 1 core

it was balanced too - less points, 5/6+ only

[white narwhal]

Their different designs not rlly a genuine comparison

[true talon]

I consider taking a 40 getting out of cycle and losing control of the fight punishing

[finite tapir]

losing control of the fight is a you problem, not an inherent form of difficulty

this can happen in any content which has stakes, and thus isn't inherent to the boss itself

[true talon]

A lot of people lose control of sol due to getting out of dodge cycle

[meager flame]

most osrs group mechanics can be reworked to be solo mechanics too fairly easily they just have to actually be willing to make that effort

[finite tapir]

and thus i do not count it as contributing to it being "punishing"

[hard axle]

Yeah, a new player would find GGs difficult, but does it make it so? No.

[finite tapir]

[hard axle]

Or regular gauntlet too

[true talon]

I well game is currrently unplayable at high end content due to east worlds

Even 2200 world got 1300 people

[hard axle]

Bitch, I’m playing on the same worlds at 1.4k populations and getting to delve 11

[finite tapir]

"punishing" would be how difficult it is to get back to neutral state, not how difficult it is to get back after you lost control and are scrambling, because you can get punished without it necessarily impacting you

[tiny dew]

I got ass internet and legit cant play between 9-11pm loool

[hard axle]

as long as you aren’t experiencing packet loss, like I am on UK worlds, the worlds are mostly fine

[finite tapir]

in some games even the act of punishing another player is entirely on the doer, not the receiver

see: sc2

[hard axle]

I hate packet loss more than high pop with a passion

And we tested on cmd prompt

[tiny dew]

Its fine when not peak hours but too many fluctuations during those times

[finite tapir]

yea i would say it's a problem with latency spikes, not really the existence of latency

[true talon]

I’m clicking the floor and 2 ticks later my char moves 😦

[finite tapir]

if you normally have 20 ping it's easier to play with 200 ping than it is to play with 50 ping but occasionally you have a 700 ping spike

[tiny dew]

Also uk worlds have been ass for me lately, used to be the secret tech when the us worlds would implode around toa release

[finite tapir]

especially if the frequency is seemingly random

[hard axle]

But yeah, back to the point of designing down is better, this is why soloable content often ends up being way way way way simpler than team content in terms of depth and improvement.

even delve is extremely linear ngl

[meager flame]

most of the time you can just do something really simple like the one super classic example from cox where the teleport mechanic just gives you a random location to run to if you're solo

[finite tapir]

anyway i think if done right, forced-group content is fine, to be quite honest

[hard axle]

It’s good you mentioned cox because solo crabs versus team crabs is night and day.

[finite tapir]

some people call out the theoretical limit on what they can do in terms of interesting mechanics for osrs bosses

and it's because there's only so much you can do featuring 1 person without introducing entirely new items/etc

[true talon]

I just wanna kill the boss and get loot and have fun. Idc if the boss can be hyper optimized by autists to save ticks or need 5 guthix rests and a god prayer book and you need to be outside 7/11 on a Tuesday and using mobile client.

[meager flame]

realistically

[finite tapir]

with even just 2 people, you can do so much with content between them

[meager flame]

you would probably just lean towards the solo version being less efficient and just work on making sure they're still playing the same game

[hard axle]

Yeah, I want to say with 1t cooldowns, you’re still limited to 5 actions or mechanical solves meaning if the boss has 6 mechanics, you have to tank one.

[finite tapir]

i really like the way yama does solo vs group, except i think group yama is way undertuned

[true talon]

Efficiency ruins games

[hard axle]

2 people would be 10 mechanics

[true talon]

Obsessive efficiency

[hard axle]

it’s not efficiency, brat - we’re talking about design limits

[white narwhal]

If it’s forced you just get ppl who outright wont interact

[hard axle]

if a pipe bursts in 4 locations, can one plumber take care of all 4 places?

Before it floods the house?

[meager flame]

i mean really the only limitation is that you can't make additional thinking people for solo players

but usually you could in some fashion create the same solo decision making process that they would've had with other people

probably a little harder than teams to be safe

[true talon]

Depends if the source pipe is linked to the others

[meager flame]

because just from a basic gameplay pov

jagex almost makes 0 team mechanics

[hard axle]

True, and that would be the equivalent of doing the BEEG skip at Yama

[meager flame]

they just put you in a room with other people doing the same thing you're doing

[hard axle]

If you know what that is

[true talon]

If you got 4 leaks and they all connect you just stop the source

[hard axle]

That’s the donofly method

[true talon]

If it’s 4 individual sources you need 4 people

[meager flame]

so its usually pretty easy to rework stuff to support whatever number of players from 1 to 100

[hard axle]

But not all solves are like that, as you can see

[hard axle]

Exactly, you got it

It’s like trying to solo freeze in hmt solo

[noble vortex]

Tbf play how you want but let’s not shame the way others do.

[hard axle]

There’s not enough bodies

Or time to catch it all

[meager flame]

ya thats where you would probably change things if you wanted to make a solo version

[hard axle]

this is why we’re talking about design limits exist way more for solo content over teams

that’s all

[meager flame]

you'd probably go in and in some way spawn crabs to make them probably catch more freezes than they would in a team per person

so it would technically be harder

but also not be impossible

[true talon]

You would just design it to be moderately punishing if you missed some or only soaked 1

[hard axle]

Yeah, they basically did this for solo normal ToB

[true talon]

Like how verzik green ball works

[meager flame]

i mean green ball would be one of the more interesting ones

[hard axle]

verzik green ball is literally the mechanic you said you hated

[meager flame]

because you'd probably need to add like random locations to bounce the ball to yourself somehow

[hard axle]

It’s unavoidable 75

[meager flame]

making it pretty hard but ultimately fair solo instead of being like

gl on the eating

[hard axle]

You can’t dissipate it because it was never coded properly

hmt fixed it

[true talon]

I learned of you both bounce the ball an stay with each other you both take full damage, got hit a 60 on entry mode with my friend doing CAs lol

[hard axle]

2 consecutive bounces = explode yes

[meager flame]

stuff like that is why i do think solo should be a separate release though

it does need work and it will ultimately be different

but it could still be good if they work on it

[true talon]

Like it or not most the player base is solo players. Which is why content is designed in a solo focused mindset.

[hard axle]

I feel like Yama pet contract did it right - it’s very skill based, while being soloable

but it’ll be like 5-7 minute solo

Instead of 2.5-3

Worm/shard contracts even more so

[hoary granite]

You like to throw a lot of blanket opinions out as fact with no evidence

[rare grotto]

first time in here?

wait til u see him conjure up numbers to support his statements

that's when the real magic happens

[hoary granite]

Its pretty cringe

Anyway back to Mohka, boring ass solo content

Cries in ironman

Oh friends? You want to hangout and do something? Too bad I'm busy grinding bis, can't play today

[meager flame]

see thats the other side of why they should support both more

tons of people want to play alone tons have like 1 or 2 friends and some people have massive groups

[hoary granite]

Don't forget the GROUP IRONMEN

[meager flame]

jagex is just setting themselves up by trying to cater to any specific group size while excluding the others

[hoary granite]

nah they just are gonna release both

And thats fine

People need to nut up and realize the group players suck it up and do the solo bosses, so the solo players can suck it up and do group content or just pass

[frail bough]

Yep, and also that people aren't just "group only content" and "solo only content", variety is key.

As long as I have options on what I can do, I'm a happy man.

[hard axle]

2k Yama grinder

But that was way more fun than solo DT2 bosses

[meager flame]

tbh i'd be really curious to see them try to rerelease tob

like

they failed a lot with toa for certain kinds of players that aren't mid game doing the first raid they've ever seen

but they did all of that stuff to toa because there ultimately is a huge problem with tob for them

so now that both happened im curious how they'd try to fix the problems they both had

[frail bough]

This is partially why I said what I said early about having a 3 man raid "requirement" very focused on combat styles. I think that them sticking to a specific group size and just making that a requirement "solves" a lot of the weird "jank" we see with "duo" bosses being more efficient solo. If it's simply just not possible, you don't have to worry about it and IMO - simplicity is key.

[meager flame]

yeah but it doesn't solve the

[frail bough]

I think things like tobs scaling are alright but I really don't think anything can beat content designed for specific group size

[meager flame]

not enough players do tob for us to justify doing this the same way again problem

[true talon]

It’s pretty supportive with facts and data. You can check the amount of solo cox and solo toa compared to group

[meager flame]

which is why toa is so insane

in the other direction

[frail bough]

ye

[meager flame]

like how do they meet in the middle

[frail bough]

i think everyone i know was sorta disappointed at how easy yama solo was and that the "duo" mechanics were just you with a +1

not saying yama is bad but like

[meager flame]

tbf though i think tob has some other issues

[frail bough]

it doesnt really feel it was duo and just that its duo-able

[hard axle]

And don’t forget they padded the fuck out of the rewards to increase engagement.

It’s like Riot Games releasing a new champion with new skins and then overtuning the champion to increase sales.

[meager flame]

like i think people might be more willing if they didn't get like

giga punished for dying or wiping

[hard axle]

If CoX was as stupidly rewarding as ToA, CoX would probably have more clears since you can’t wipe.

[meager flame]

tbh i think for just a generic raid to throw at all types of players

cox is #1 by a mile

[hard axle]

Like ToA was up to 3-5x as many purple chance per raid

[true talon]

Your incentive to not die in cox is losing all your unique chance which already don’t exist lol

[meager flame]

thats good though

because like

you can learn

[white narwhal]

Just getting a solo centric player to want to group for anything is the real hurdle

[true talon]

Yea it is

[meager flame]

then you can focus on doing it better

where for tob its like oh you died? do the entire raid again

lmao i think that kills motivation for a lot of people

[frail bough]

If I were to combine all 3 raids we have into a "perfect" raid based on what we've seen so far it would be something like

• Tobs team scaling and general difficulty
• Coxs never-wipe mechanics + room flow
• Toa supply restocks and reward room

[hard axle]

?

Idk about you, but 60% of the purple chance and not going back to entrance is better than 0% lol

[true talon]

I prefer the content scale down to solo, but work on a group.

I don’t like when it’s group forced like tob

[hard axle]

it’s not even group forced anymore

They removed basically all the pain points

[true talon]

It’s improved over the years yes

[hard axle]

you can solo, but you’re still operating on the stigma of release state

[true talon]

But no1 does solo ton outside of 1 time aspirational achievement

[white narwhal]

Idk fair points but raids will always be group based they all but confirmed they always will

[hard axle]

They do now

It’s genuinely not that bad anymore even for moneys

a bit outdated information you have there

[white narwhal]

Just nobody wants to work with others tbh , teams always end up being a compare skill between players elitist convo etc

[true talon]

Well yea it’s best money in game now that they refused to address splinter issues, destroyed toa and nex. So now it’s just tob at the top of legit money makers lol. However thwy value is drastically inflated by rolling a scythe.

[frail bough]

I know there are people who really like mvp things but i truly believe tob would be better if it didn't have the ending board

[true talon]

As all other uniques aren’t worth shit

[true talon]

I look at it same way as parsing, to much incentive to get out as much damage and ignore mechanics

[hard axle]

Uhh, have you seen non-scythe prices? Again, outdated information

[true talon]

Is any of the tob uniques worth now?

[white narwhal]

I dont see them ever touching raids 1-3 ever again completely honest. They all have their design ppl like ppl hate 🤷‍♂️

[hard axle]

MVP rats are dumb as bricks

[hard axle]

Yes, they are, but they were never that good and they nearly all powercrept to hell.

[white narwhal]

If they remove group mechanics that has unavoidable damage it stands at least a slim chance

[true talon]

I mean avernic is last relevant one lol

[frail bough]

I think the only thing I'd really ask them to rework is how cox purples are provided. It shouldn't broadcast immediately and require whoever got the purple to open chest first.

but other than that yeah, i agree

[hard axle]

With the prominence of 2h weapons? Not really

[white narwhal]

Either way only jagex knows what they think ppl want

[hard axle]

Let me fuse Ayak and Sang ty

[true talon]

Meanwhile jagex released a 60 attack voidwaker from the new quest

[meager flame]

i mean we can tell vaguely what info they gathered

just look at what they did after each raid for the next one

obviously not enough people do tob

[white narwhal]

They already briefly hinted at raid 4 design as they have an idea of it

[meager flame]

tbh

a lot of the toa intentions are probably the right ones they just did a really bad job

and idk how they're gonna take that

thats a hard thing to admit lol

[white narwhal]

Really it comes down to annoying mechanics that can be managed without ppl suffering for others choices

[true talon]

Bosses were bad at a base lvl and then invo did nothing but add defense and damage

[tiny dew]

?

Have you never had fun with friends before

[white narwhal]

Prefer they get rid of being able to just kill your team mate for the memes etc

[white narwhal]

No

[hard axle]

I hate this isn’t talked about more

They added burning claws as the middle ground and then the Arkan blade as a middle ground of a middle ground

That’s kinda sad

[true talon]

I find this to be fun and what group content is meant for

Killing someone with the green all never gets old

[white narwhal]

We would never be in a group then. This is exactly my point

[true talon]

Esp if they your friend and they on discord and we all laughing

[white narwhal]

The group shenanigans get old fast like years ago

[tiny dew]

You know this is a video game meant to have fun on right

Not everything is about efficiency

[white narwhal]

It’s not about efficiency

It’s about not having to be forced into situation with ppl who admit they’ll opt to kill you for the lolz

[hard axle]

As long as they make it 2-5x the time to see uniques in your name for solo and don’t trivialize the difficulty, I don’t really care

[tiny dew]

So you raid with randoms is what ur saying

[hard axle]

You must have really shitty friends or only do FFA with randoms

[white narwhal]

Neither

[tiny dew]

Creating a false believe based on never having done content with others before maybe

[hard axle]

So this is just irrational fear speaking, not experience

[white narwhal]

Assume what you want tbh doesn’t matter to me

But if they design a raid and ppl in the groups are just there to troll cba

[tiny dew]

You choose the group you raid with

[hard axle]

I’m not assuming anything, you just said you don’t do group content in FFA or with shitty randoms.

Are your good friends actively PKing you in these content?

[white narwhal]

Feels like most ppl just want to define a narrative to why someone should accept un negotiable terms

[small anvil]

The voidwaker comp makes no sense to me. Doesn't deal magic DMG, doesn't have guaranteed hit, doesn't have minimum hit

It being a strong spec for cheap sure