game-update

[hollow pivot]

im thinking a encounter where large parts of the fight is surviving or doing tasks that is not DPS..

But still tanking mobs

[winter hearth]

I feel like most people would really not enjoy that

[frail bough]

i know im in minority but, fwiw, i love tanking for buddies - allows a potentially more chill roll so that people who like optimal dps strats can focus on their thing wihle i focus on mine

[winter hearth]

It's super common feedback on any piece of content that spending time not hitting stuff just feels bad

[tender harness]

Would rather see justi get the masori treatment and combine with inq

[winter hearth]

I agree fwiw I love attrition stuff and playing tanks, but think it's hard to get right in OSRS

[ember token]

has the team ever discussed giving players flat armor in some way? whether on justi or shields or other armor

[true talon]

This is awful gameplay, do not suggest this lol

[hollow pivot]

or like they said, content where you could have a dedicated tank. like nightmare

But where its also rewarding to tank.. not like u get minimum contribution for tanking

[frail bough]

there was a game jam thing someone was working on for shields and stuff, its somewhere in this server

but yeah idk if that counts as actual discussion in the team

[winter hearth]

the problem is it's still worth it for the tank to maximise DPS gear and always will be, same as the person tanking at Verzik during P3 for example

or even tanking Maiden etc.

almost anywhere that has soft-tanking, it's always a mechanical check and never really feels like 'I should wear defensive gear', just think it's hard to get right

[hollow pivot]

If the damage was 100% accurate, but reduced based on armour it could work

[obsidian venture]

This tbh. But my main concern with nerfing rates for 500+ is that you still have to go through a slog of a raid

[craggy wind]

I get the sentiment of having a tank build, but our game’s combat system is built around higher and higher dps. The tank role would be even more niche than Justi is currently, and would end up just another crutch or something to deal with to maximize your setups.

I feel like the new prayers suffered this exact situation where it was just another painful add on to content instead of a fun new addition.

[compact flicker]

What I'm hoping for this loot rebalance is something regards to imbued heart drop rate requiring so much post 99 slayer to be on rate. It's disheartening

[frigid folio]

sadly osrs doesnt seem like the kind of game to have a dedicated tank. you can have gear that increases your tanking, but to be a main tank seems like you need some additional set bonuses and all that to make it worthwile

[craggy wind]

I love what you did there

[true talon]

Problem with roles is that they are never = in how contribution is.
IE at yama if i do mage role of sigil and flares while my melee friend hits the boss. then i get less contribution, and i do 25% less dps making the killers longer. over just both of us meleeing.
There is not a good trade off with roles, unless what the role is doing leads to = value for the player.

[tender harness]

High HP fights seem fine if you have ways to interact with the encounter to in essence be rewarded for good gameplay. Like Sols parry mechanic.
Having high HP for the sake of it and nothing engaging or going on for the majority of a fight feels terrible

[hollow pivot]

What about a thorns kind of item addition? reflect damage based on your armour value

[craggy wind]

AGREEEEEE

[dire mango]

You'd need something akin to BA where the roles are predefined for a tank role to work. But it's very hard to design a good boss fight around it.

[craggy wind]

If there was some kind of mechanic of like hey, at 50% someone with x armor has to be here and “block” a blast - yeah it would make kind of sense

[true talon]

@winter hearth do you think it would be possible to extend contract health % on yama to base yama. the 66-33(which is subjective to even phase) make the fight rather boring and uneventful. and the 33% end phase basically ends before the boss does any mechanics. for a healthy end game boss i feel that majority of the fight should be were you are challenged the most.

[craggy wind]

I think of like Destiny raids a while back - Titans having a bubble shield to block a section to keep everyone alive.

But that game had 3 classes with their own respective strengths and weaknesses… we have the combat triangle but it’s not as heavily integrated as that

[obsidian venture]

It’d be nice if they reduced the hp pool for toa bosses, as that will help speed up the raid + go along with your suggestion of lowering purple chance

And def* or allow for more def reduction

[craggy wind]

Think they’re looking at lowering the def, no?

[true talon]

33% p3 in a duo ends before the first flares/waves even spawn. so its not really a difficult encounter for a end game boss. pushing the phasing to 75-50 would greatly fix this.

[obsidian venture]

Didn’t see anything about that on the first read

[tender harness]

"We have taken this suggestion and buffed defense across the board by 60% and made the bosses immune to def drain"

[frail bough]

I also did not

[craggy wind]

Maybe I read that as another suggestion lol. See if I can find where I saw that.

[true talon]

Ya because the boss also has to be soloable, so you cant have pre-determined roles. roles are player created not game design. tob doesnt have roles when it was designed.

[craggy wind]

I was thinking they were seeing what they could reduce without just making it easy but maybe I read something else.

[frigid folio]

@winter hearth a cool thing i wanted to stick in to the devs mind (its not game changing but would be cool for a poll) is having the jar display case rotate what jars are in there everytime you teleport to your house. gives more of a meaning to the whole jar system

[dire mango]

You can't compare osrs to other games with respect to a tank role because osrs have never worked that way. Making a satisfying tank role in osrs is not as easy as just slapping on a mechanic that you have to have a lot of defence to deal with.

[dire mango]

Why does it have to be soloable?

[obsidian venture]

Could reduce hp by like 10%, allow to reduce “double” of what we currently can drain

It didn’t have to be soloable, and eff solos are better than avg duos

Like this Yama update should have focused way more on the duo aspect, as that’s what they pitched extensively

[civic ginkgo]

Don't ask, there was a whole debate about whether bosses should be soloable

[frail bough]

i think the fact that people wished for yama to be even more duo focused shows the desire of not needing things to be soloable

[slender vapor]

All duo did to yama was make it brain off vs solos

[true talon]

Yama has great duo mechanics and roles. but its not worth doing them. 1 mage + 1 melee is the most chill yama can get.

[obsidian venture]

It barely has a role

Wws

[true talon]

but the mage guy gets no flare contribution and -25% dps

They really need to put more of the fight in p3

33% is just not enough to actually engage with the boss

[frail bough]

even though i like the idea of doing that

it would make p1 and p2 so short itd be silly

[true talon]

i mean p1 and p2 being short is fine

you would expierence 2 glyphs max in a duo

which is enough to learn what shadow an fire do

[frail bough]

yeah i guess im also looking at it from max gear perspective so idk

[true talon]

but p3 being so short means you never learn what waves or astral flares do

[frail bough]

but i personally feel like end game boss should "require" (soft) end game gear

[true talon]

Boss dies in p3 before the first flares even spawn

[frail bough]

but in many duo kills i have had it where i hardly see 2nd glyph, making it even less likely would feel very strange

[fossil epoch]

damn not wanting to see ironmen talk lol

[frail bough]

they would have to make it so that p1 always starts a specific glyph and p2 is always opposite of that in order

for it to work

[true talon]

This only really happens if he does flares instead of a shadow attack

[frail bough]

could be that i just got lucky a bunch idk

[true talon]

Skipping 2 glyphs means you are doing giga damage or he properly phased XD (still doesnt happen)

[frail bough]

i do feel like p3 should be the longer part of fight though

or if not, p1 and p2 be a bit faster paced on base yama

idk yama is like my favorite thing to do but also i see a bunch of stuff they could do to make it better

[true talon]

p3 should be the longer part of the fight and it would drastically improve how boring the boss is, while increasing the difficulty.

[obsidian venture]

@winter hearth I do believe that instead of adding a 4th jewel to the raid, you can simply reduce def stats, allow for more def reductions, and tweak the hp (will directly affect rates).
On a personal note, never been a fan of skullskipping or 3d core. Could lower points for a 3d and lower the points gained from skullskipping. You should be able to gain points from engaging with skulls properly

[analog crow]

There was a game jam thing about a shield rework a while back, would love to see something like that revive the defensive part of gearing

[craggy wind]

I agree with that, just giving a comparable instance. I think doing something like I mentioned would be too arbitrary and not a useful means to integrate defense roles.

It would have to be something like BA someone mentioned, if at all, to halfway work lol

[rare grotto]

making blue keris better is not a bad shout. Ppl alr use it for kephri, no need to bring another keris into the mix just for baba or w/e

more def red would be nice...

[true talon]

Bad take lowering the reward for method you don’t like doing lol.

Just don’t do it as the punishment is already extra raid time

[obsidian venture]

The method is bad. Extending downs to farm points is not good gameplay. Purposely not engaging with skulls is also bad gameplay

The extra raid time compared to points gained is minimal, hence why people do it

It’s worth for the time gained

Shouldn’t reward bad gameplay

[gaunt minnow]

Wouldn’t call it bad gameplay, just not intuitive

[true talon]

Ehh I agree with the not engaging with skulls and the 3 down is often caused due to way core works as 2 down is not feasible at high invos

[gaunt minnow]

Which is inherently bad depending on how you look at it

[obsidian venture]

Note how I didn’t say to murk it completely? That’s to allow folks with bad internet to not get one banged

[velvet orchid]

I wouldn’t call it bad gameplay but I will say I agree it shouldn’t be worth it

[true talon]

I would increase the leeway on skulls

[obsidian venture]

Fair

[true talon]

1 yellow click or lag an the raid ends is not fun

[velvet orchid]

I think the answer is to allow skull dmg to count as personal dmg

[tacit pendant]

Blue keris could easily just be buffed to work on baba and akkha, agree no point in 4th gem

[fossil epoch]

this very much

[tacit pendant]

Let death chrage proc on skulls? Then you have atleast some decision making on if you kill a few skulls

[fossil epoch]

killing skulls is an awesome feeling, its not great gameplay to ignore them

[tacit pendant]

Killing skulls is fun, esp with yellow keris

[obsidian venture]

Interesting

[gaunt minnow]

I think my main concern is that skull skipping and avoiding the mechanics is - again (like red x and BF) the easier and better option compared to engaging with the content properly

Which is imo inherently bad

[sacred oracle]

bf?

[gaunt minnow]

Yeah

Butterfly is easier than just doing akkha as intended

[tacit pendant]

You still gotta learn the solo/duo timing (easier than hitting them yes) on top of wardens taking longer (adds sliiiiight difficulty).

[gaunt minnow]

Well it’s learn the timing (which has a super easy visual cue) of a glitch, for more purps per hour. Or do the skulls as intended for less points per hour

[tacit pendant]

Nah doing akkha as intended is brain dead esp with changes to chip, and being able to shadow 2/3 phases

[gaunt minnow]

Not as brain dead as bf

Bf is literally brain dead

There’s no variance to it

[tacit pendant]

Its not really a glitch. You can also skip floor damage the entire rest of the fight

[gaunt minnow]

Maybe glitch was a bad choice but it’s definitely not intended to be done that way

[meager flame]

idk if you can really call bf braindead when its the only method that involves you actually paying attention to the screen full time

[tacit pendant]

Theres no variance in, "switch gear when akkha changes colors and stand fucking still the whole fight"

[meager flame]

relative to the alternatives

[gaunt minnow]

For me personally I hate doing akkha normally as opposed to brain off butterfly

Maybe not to you but I know a lot of people who prefer bf for being brain off

[meager flame]

im just saying you're looking at the screen and clicking on stuff a lot more actively while you do it

[tacit pendant]

Butterfly is more fun, because its not brain off lmao.

I mean its brain off for your teamates

[meager flame]

like objectively you're interacting with the game more while you do it

[gaunt minnow]

Pot 2k toa and tell me bf is not brain off

[tacit pendant]

Pot 2k anything and its ALL brain off

[gaunt minnow]

Nope

I still die to akkha doing it normalllg on the iron

But bf is the same every time

[meager flame]

i mean i completely check out while i do solo olm but im not out here telling people its brain dead lol

thats just an experience thing

[vivid ruin]

People like to call everything brain dead after they fully understand every mechanic of everything ever lol

[gaunt minnow]

Only in the os discord do I see people saying bf is harder than normal face tanking akkha

[vivid ruin]

Meanwhile casuals struggling on a 150 invo toa run

[gaunt minnow]

🤷🏻‍♂️

[vivid ruin]

Oscord full of sweats who live on rs lol

[obsidian venture]

If oscord is sweaty… standards are pisslow

[tacit pendant]

I mean, you stand in the middle, click boss once per color change, very hard. Im sorry you had to struggle so bad with that

[meager flame]

i mean honestly we kind of are sweaty if you were just really placing us all on the full spectrum of osrs players

[true talon]

This is why the comments made by HLC should be ignored, its looked at from an elitest and max efficiency point of view and the truth is they are the extreme minority.

[meager flame]

most of us that talk to each other on here all the time are like

a lot better than normal players

[tacit pendant]

Also warmups / other "top" toa guys with youtubes all expressed killing butterfly would make the room less engaging. So like its not just this server

[obsidian venture]

[true talon]

I saw a 123 in full masori an sang staff take 20 minutes to defeat the dt2 mysterious figure in edge bank

[vivid ruin]

Nex is afk

[meager flame]

its funny too because theres still like a massive skill gap here

but lol we're basically all shades of players way on the far end of progression compared to the average guy

[gaunt minnow]

Such a bad argument

So the boss should be easier to do by performing some counter intuitive dance as opposed to just doing the boss as intended

[tacit pendant]

Its literally not tho? You stand still which completly mitigates his specials

[vivid ruin]

Not really though lol

[gaunt minnow]

Why does everyone bf then if it’s not easier ?

[meager flame]

tbh

[gaunt minnow]

Just for fun?

[tacit pendant]

Its better dps lmao

[vivid ruin]

Lots of chip damage esp from melee

[meager flame]

the hardest park of akkha is just figuring out how to do the intermissions with everything turned on

[tacit pendant]

And chip

[gaunt minnow]

Which makes the raid easier

[gaunt minnow]

Which makes it easier

[meager flame]

actually fighting akkha is pretty simple generally no matter how you want to do it

[true talon]

lots of chip and its better dps (when looking at it from having a shadow perspective)

[tacit pendant]

Doing better dps does make all fights easier, my bad

[true talon]

its actually far worst dps than forcing him to swap if you dont have a shadow

[gaunt minnow]

Obviously

We’re talking about shadowers

[obsidian venture]

What does this have to do with Hlc?

[tacit pendant]

The most engaging method would be kicking him, you right

[gaunt minnow]

The obvious best method would be doing the boss as intended by jagex, the most intuitive way

Or should be

Which it’s not atm

[true talon]

Nothing lol, this was just the example i give with the type of player who plays this game.

[tacit pendant]

Well as jagex is aware that bf exists and explicitly stated they want it, today, thats whats intended

[meager flame]

i actually really like their update today

[true talon]

But HLC looks at literally everything though a focus point of having.

1. absolute max gear and stats.
2. being able to execute literally every mechanic in the game completely perfectly.
3. being able to kill the most ammount of a monster possible.

[meager flame]

makes doing the bf correctly really really rewarding

assuming they actually mean it where he cant swap if you dont get meleed

[tacit pendant]

Baba will be braindead, which ig im fine with, not sure if i prefer it. But properly fixing him is a larger task

[meager flame]

that was only previously true for the first transition

[true talon]

They dont look at.
lower gear setups.
Lesser skilled players.
The time TTK for someone with less stats/gear.

[meager flame]

other than that they kinda told us all what we already "knew"

toa scaling kinda nuts most purples come from higher end raids as far as being above 300

etc

[vivid ruin]

"Learn to red x"

• the same guy who red x's his herb patches

[minor whale]

"You're doing more dps so that makes it easier than just fucking standing still and swapping prayers and gear once in a blue moon" is so fucking silly lmao

[meager flame]

i still dont really agree with them about the 5:1 thing though

[tacit pendant]

Akkha changes are mostly them looking at lower gear setups though

[meager flame]

they make it sound like anyone has ever cared that baba is doing its actual special attacks

[true talon]

Which is good, this is how it should be.

[tacit pendant]

Agree

[meager flame]

the only thing anyone ever feared was the chip damage through prayer

[true talon]

I only cared about the occasional 20 though prayer lol

[obsidian venture]

They do what. You’re just tryna scapegoat a group with some reddit tier knowledge. You also forget that to get to endgame, you have to interact and learn the game. Folks can speak from a place of knowledge which is ideal no?

[true talon]

Him throwing a rock or summoning monkeys had no gripes with me

[tacit pendant]

Baba and zebak are the defacto free supplyless rooms after changes

I just hope they can fix bone dag at kephri

[kindred pier]

can you add 545 with 33min avg time to that sheet?

[obsidian venture]

They mentioned it so surely

[true talon]

Listen i hate to break it to you, but your knowledge of abusing things to get more dps/bypass mechanics is not the same as knowing the game's mechanics and interacting with the fight. you tick eating every attack with guthix rest and using pnecks to null incoming damage to avoid losing ticks is not the same as prayer flicking/proper movement/proper gear swaps.

[obsidian venture]

I believe they should also adjust time invos

[true talon]

Or worst the running tile to tile to force the boss to do nothing

butterfyl/donflyyamasololamadingdong

[meager flame]

lmao alright bait used to be believable

[obsidian venture]

You said almost nothing in this essay

[marsh hedge]

the average 500 is 48 minutes? jesus

[meager flame]

its people doing their kits

they dont really know what they're doing and probably camping out with their keris

[true talon]

Hey look at me, i created a method that allows me to path around the boss and force him to do nothing, while i hit him and think im so cool and good at this game. please notice me plebs.

[minor whale]

What the fuck are you talking about

People don't make shit to look cool are you like actually ok

They do that shit to minmax the game they enjoy

[obsidian venture]

Think he’s just projecting his fake fantasies on what Hlc folks do

Very cringe

[minor whale]

If you're good at the game why wouldn't you try to make the most out of it with your skill level?

This is like actually the craziest shit ever lmao

[marsh hedge]

i mean it cant just be kits thatd have to be a pretty small portion compared to ppl doing money. I suppose that would slightly bring down the average though

[true talon]

Ya then complain about said min-max makes the boss to easy and should be changed to suite them XD

[minor whale]

Brother you're literally the only person who ever complains about melee Yama

[obsidian venture]

Most folks talk from trying to improve the general game lmao

You literally need a mirror

[meager flame]

also idk how often this happens but a lot of people in 500s dont have a time invo turned on

so they might literally be afk lol

[kindred pier]

should every boss in the game just then be like obor where you just stand and click boss with 0 depth?

[meager flame]

i know when i was grinding for a shadow and stuff i'd just go afk mid raid and make breakfast or whatever

[tacit pendant]

Little snack break intermission on the long as fuck raid

[minor whale]

People complain about Baba red-x because it's boring as shit, the amount of clicks you do and the ease of the cheese is just unbalanced
Butterfly people enjoy and think it's better than base Akkha because base Akkha has NO MECHANICS

Stand still

[marsh hedge]

wait the average 450 is 50min

na like

[true talon]

no? should ever boss become bando's were you run from 4 different tiles bypassing al his mechanics and forcing it to not interact with you?

[minor whale]

Swap gear and prayers once every 60 ticks

[marsh hedge]

is everyone going to the bathroom mid raid

[kindred pier]

imo, redx should be limited to 3 step unders before you have to tank a hit, that allows 5:1 to exist and still makes it do something

[meager flame]

the iron grind for purples is insane though im ngl

[tacit pendant]

I think we all agree and the guy that hated butterfly left. Idk what changed in tass' head cuz he was chillin a second ago

[meager flame]

i would just get on and be inside of toa for like 8 hours at a time

every time i played

lmao

[craggy wind]

Yes

[marsh hedge]

ngl I am not in for that

[vivid ruin]

People forget every miniboss from COX has virtually no mechanics

[kindred pier]

akkha is nice, you can even do fancy tricks to get vw:s in

[true talon]

Ok and running from 4 tiles is engaging and depth? dont you basically sit there an smack verzik changing prayers or sotsegg.

[obsidian venture]

He becomes sometimes. Side effect of not understanding what they’re talking about

Happens with ignorance

[meager flame]

im convinced he actually just decides its time to troll once in awhile

[marsh hedge]

like i have before, but like every raid man?

[obsidian venture]

Basically

[tacit pendant]

Sote has you changing prayers. And team coordinating/tick eating, plus the maze

[true talon]

The world will never knew, but i see my biggest engagers.

[minor whale]

This can't be a real message

[meager flame]

lmao

[obsidian venture]

Avg oscord interaction

[compact flicker]

Yes, and for smoke breaks

[obsidian venture]

Should penalize afking the raid tbh

[tacit pendant]

Damn i actually grinded a few pnm kills for tablet yesterday (never lucky) guess ill wait for that change now

Eh, penalizing teams for needing to grab a beer between rooms is a bad take

[tender harness]

I blame Bane for my switch 2 being delayed by a day

[obsidian venture]

Grab it in between raids mate

[tender harness]

😭

[obsidian venture]

Huh

[tender harness]

I mean uhh

something something red x toa monkey

[meager flame]

should've gotten the walmart one they were like weirdly serious about that delivery

dude showed up outside my house at 6:30am

[tender harness]

I did

fucking walmart shipped it via fedex and is like sorry no 9am delivery for you

[meager flame]

rip also

dont actually ever do walmart again unironically idk how i even got mine

[sacred oracle]

sometimes i just have no idea at all what you're trying to say

[meager flame]

they deleted my account like 4 days after i preordered

for no reason

and i didnt even know if it was actually going to go through or not

lmao

[obsidian venture]

Holy

Even Mox agrees

[sacred oracle]

i'm a pretty reasonable person

[minor whale]

Your knowledge of so completely understanding the game so you can discover and invent ways of creating new ways to fight the boss is NOT equal to understanding the game 😭

[obsidian venture]

Might need to nail that to the forehead

[tacit pendant]

Are we gonna see ZCB spec usage during butterflys?

[rare grotto]

[tacit pendant]

I think zcb > vw?

[rare grotto]

3x zcb entry

double dc v nice as well

exciting

akkha changes i like because it raises skill ceil

baba not so much

[obsidian venture]

Scroll up to the convo above about the bfly 💀

[tacit pendant]

Yeah dont do that its rot

[obsidian venture]

It’s funny because we do engage with them in another disc

But never heard that from em

[rare grotto]

m8 its pure bait

guy is just insufferable

[tacit pendant]

Zapdos must just not know what hes talking about, clearly

[obsidian venture]

Few of the folks chatting send toa 540s

But that avg time for 450+ being 50 min is pathetic

[kindred pier]

yea, pet mog invo do be like that

[gaunt minnow]

Ye bf is so engaging

[tacit pendant]

Tbf most of my toas as of late are boosting my gimp buddy for fang. Speedy raids are way more fun

[gaunt minnow]

Running in a circle

[true talon]

Also a better nerf to toa instead of hitting purple rate, is reduced hp and defense. reduced hp means less points which is less purple %, less hp an defense means more fun time on the boss.

[kindred pier]

if we're arguing in bad faith like this, then just standing and tanking hits is very engaging

[rare grotto]

bf in combination with transition + spec transitions is what makes it interesting and engaging

[minor whale]

It would also mean lower raid completion times

[tacit pendant]

Well bud now you can not butterfly and get a lot closer to max dps and no chip, i hope this helps

[true talon]

Which is fine, TOA is like 40 minutes in a ironman bowfa/fang setup.

[minor whale]

Which would mean unless you change how purple scaling works anyway, it'd just be a net negative

[noble vortex]

[true talon]

getting a shadow reduces your raid times by 10 minutes alone

[obsidian venture]

That is so wrong 😭

Yeah if you don’t learn the raid it’s going to be long

[kindred pier]

balancing content around ironmen is kinda backwards tho

[minor whale]

Think we found the 50 minute 400er

[kindred pier]

it's is a challenge mode

[rare grotto]

eye is going to make the raid even easier for the ironmen 👍

[tacit pendant]

Were getting better shadow alternative soon, and you can bowfa akkha. This update is balancing around irons

[gaunt minnow]

I don’t think they said there’d be no chip bud

But thanks for the advice bud

[tacit pendant]

Blog says chip damage in all forms is reduced. Please read

[burnt bolt]

Reduced doesn't mean gone

But yes

[gaunt minnow]

Yeah reduced

Not no chip

Bud

This guys the easiest person to bait

🍿

[minor whale]

Why would you come into a discussion with the intent of baiting

It's pathetic

[tacit pendant]

So cringe man. "Oh im just baiting" get real

[rare grotto]

it's called we do a little trolling you wouldn't get it

[dire mango]

Tassili does it 24/7. It's how this channel operates when the yellow names are not around.

[marsh hedge]

if i were to guess its probably like a 6-7min save having a shadow, and you can get like over half of that for having a tbow instead of a bowfa. thats also pre akkha change and akkha changes help bowfa andys a lot

[burnt bolt]

And people not having to use tridents for dps when there is 1 guy butterflying is gonna save time for people without shadow kek

[hard axle]

So as it turns out, teams are beyond small contributors of purples

[burnt bolt]

Or 4t bowfa butterflying for a lot of people now

[obsidian venture]

Preach

[minor whale]

Called it

[rare grotto]

yeah 5t trident bf is so garbage but very much the norm for andies

[marsh hedge]

yea 4t bowfa bf is gonna be beans. U can turn on dt if u know how to do that

[minor whale]

I am glad they're reducing higher end scaling though

[tacit pendant]

Tass is fairly genuine tho? Trolling usually implies not serious

[minor whale]

Doesn't really matter what, getting a 55% chance for a purple in any size is just kinda wild

[burnt bolt]

Theres 4t tiles, but its just shit dps compared to all other options that you'd have lol

Like fang, blowpipe, bowfa etc are all significantly better

[rare grotto]

yeah i know, it's just the same reason ppl red x low invo baba etc

cause it's "safe"

[true talon]

Good trolling is one you cant tell the difference

[hard axle]

Everyone kept bitching about 1/2 teams at 400s but reality was always there’s more anti social loners doing solos than anything else

[marsh hedge]

Tbh there are very few raids that hit the cap at high invo

[burnt bolt]

Why anyone thought teams were the issue is beyond me lol

[marsh hedge]

it has to be like 98% 8man 410s 2% 5man 500+

[hard axle]

Nah he has admitted to be baiting several times so can’t treat him seriously

[true talon]

Actually their data wasnt broken down by solo/group per raid lvl. while we know group is small ammount of the completetions, we dont know how much of the total unique chance was group.

[rare grotto]

was funny because ppl in here were saying it's high invo toa ruining it

[tender harness]

blue keris buff in toa I beg

[rare grotto]

when high invo toa is 7% of purples

[marsh hedge]

yeah

[kindred pier]

there was data on that? :o

[tacit pendant]

Money 400s baby

[obsidian venture]

Yeah on the chart

[marsh hedge]

which frankly i thought also was the case

[kindred pier]

ty

[obsidian venture]

All the copers turned out to be wrong

Insane

[true talon]

it is lol. 400-500 is 39% of all uniques but only being 19% of total completetions

[rare grotto]

there are just so many noobs doing low/mid invo toa that it doesn't matter if 10 ppl are doing 540s

[hard axle]

We do

It literally says total uniques

[marsh hedge]

ah u see

u think 400 is high invo

[true talon]

300-500 is 78% of all uniques

you really think billybobs doing 150s is printing uniques??

[rare grotto]

150-400 is 62% of uniques lmao and the raid has half its mechanics turned off

[kindred pier]

22% of uniques coming from 150-300 is crazy

[obsidian venture]

There’s a chart and you’re still arguing

[vivid ruin]

This reads as 3% of all raids recieve more than 2x chance at uniques

[plucky umbra]

people just want to ego how high invo ToA they can do rn lol

[rare grotto]

that is what the data says yeah, it's not that 1 person is farming them, but there are like 100x more billybobs learning/doing that invo that the lower purp chance doesn't matter

[true talon]

Elitest POV once again lol

[burnt bolt]

Looking at just hte % is dumb though, check how much time is spent in those raids vs higher invo lol

[tacit pendant]

Billybobs arent potting 150s

[hard axle]

You see why I say he’s baiting all the time @tacit pendant

[tender harness]

billybobs are spooning entry mode shadows instead

[obsidian venture]

People spending 50 min apparently in higher

[tacit pendant]

Its more realistic to say actually bad / dumb takes, and that he backpedals "oh im trolling"

[rare grotto]

well you should go even further and check completion odds + completion time and compare

[marsh hedge]

i think i can solo a kephri mog with a bowfa faster than 50min im baffled thats the AVERAGE

[true talon]

300-500 is 77% of all uniques, like it or not 300-500 is still the higher lvl of the raid.

[rare grotto]

good joke

[true talon]

the arguement was people doing sub 300 was bringing in all the purples

which is false

they are 42% of all completions and only 22% of the uniques

[rare grotto]

anything under 400 is low invo don't talk to me

[true talon]

Clearly you guys speak in ticks an cant do math

[wise canopy]

should be lower

[obsidian venture]

Nah legit tho, the raid didn’t change much till 400+ lmao

[kindred pier]

like you can turn on all the invos that I don't even know what they do and get to 400

[obsidian venture]

Not even ego. If you pot the content and have eyes you’d be able to see

People skip over the aids invos

Which you don’t need till pushing higher

[cloud iron]

Great tweaks with the latest update, however Grandmasters need a big reward perk to replace the thrall timer. Infinite zuk/fight cave boosts is nice but not nearly on the same level as the thrall benefit. More effort/ prestige should give us more reward.

[burnt bolt]

Doing higher invo in billybob gear is ass

Takes forever with the hp and def increase

Its not just about mechanics

[obsidian venture]

Hence why they should tweak def and hp

[kindred pier]

that's just because the bosses have so much hp and def

[burnt bolt]

I KNOW

[kindred pier]

which is ass in any case

[hard axle]

Literally a 1/5 of the purples come from 150-299s and you think that’s not a contributing factor.

You moan about how it doesn’t break down by raid level per team, but even if it doesn’t, teams only make up TEN percentage of all completions.

Even if all teams were done at 400+, it would still only be a fraction of the total uniques.

[slender vapor]

Thralls for master WAS a big reward for GM anyways, now you don't lose thralls on update day

[rare grotto]

what i dislike about the data presented it's how it assumes ppl walk in and just clear a 500 within 50 minutes every time. When in reality the avg completion time is higher if u account for wipes (hardcore is usually on atp)

so if u wipe and clear a 500 in 1h20, then ur avg completion time should be 1h20

[tender harness]

you dont get it. I want extra flex on my 45 defense thats a GM

[hard axle]

The fact 500s are tiny as shit just shows how little good players are

[dire mango]

They want to steer it more in the aspirational direction. the proposed rewards are really big for people doing aspirational content

[cloud iron]

Yeah and now it needs something else. I didn't get GM to do inferno faster forever. I did it for the prestige and the real reward of having a better thrall timer than master tier. We now need a new real reward

[wispy current]

U guys are kinda trolling to say 400 and lower is easy r we talking teams or what

[wise canopy]

its comparing a max doing a 500 to someone without a fang doing a 150

[obsidian venture]

Solo/team

[slender vapor]

"I just got a buff, now i need something else"

[gaunt kestrel]

doing a 400 requires doing the base raid without any tech

its like, the standard raid

[tacit pendant]

Atleast toa rewards you at all for high rl

[hard axle]

0 prayer on thralls at GM please.

Repositioning thralls constantly does drain prayer slightly and most non-speedrunners wouldn’t care.

[tacit pendant]

Lookin at u cms

[rare grotto]

not even, ppl do plenty non max setups at 500 for fang kits etc which all skew the data. Also a 500 invo raid can be achieved with so many different invos

pathmaster 500 vs qp 500 are wildly different

[wispy current]

Average person isnt strolling thru 400s lets be real

[hard axle]

Cox/cm, nex, anything that requires you to move

[obsidian venture]

Tbf this makes it more in line with gm being warranted for inferno/fight caves, which is kinda the whole point besides 2 min thralls. On top of that, you never lose 2 min thralls on the release of new CAs

[cloud iron]

How? There is nothing to gain other than faster times at inferno and fight caves, and turael skipping spit out zuk tasks every 20 minutes anyway, which would come in 3s as a GM. It was an annoyance but not as big of a benefit as extended thralls.

[true talon]

Its ok they cant do math. when you have the majority of completion rate and the most uniques entering the game. you are the one killing the economy not the lower end who has almost half the completetions while 1/4th the unique contribution lol.

[tacit pendant]

This was a follow up to me saying toa rewards high rl but i also agree kinda

[rare grotto]

7% of uniques btw

[hard axle]

Yes and no, which is why 61% of uniques come from 400-

[rare grotto]

thats triple the uniques that are coming out of 150-300

if we go by your definition of low invo

[tacit pendant]

Rat orb, there could theoritically be more bosses fully immune to thrall styles like akkha / wardens, where the trade off of prayer matters

[cloud iron]

Now this is a good idea. GM needs something other than the tzhaar thing for all the work put in. I know they want to keep the book of the dead removal for a quest, but 0 pray thralls would be nice. Still would need more. GM is a big step from master tier.

[minor whale]

14% of all uniques coming from 450+ is not "the majority of completion rate and most uniques entering the game" lmao

[true talon]

uhh you need to go back to school.
450-500+ is 7% of the completions and 14% of the uniques
400-500+ is 19% of the completions and 39% of the uniques.

[obsidian venture]

He’s speaking strictly on 500+ which if you have eyes can see

[hard axle]

low invo is by default 300- and that was before they did the invo rebalance that made 100+ invos easier.

It’s not unfair to say 400- or even 350- is low invo given this was Jagex’s own designation + rework.

[rare grotto]

i'm talking about 500+ and comparing them to the 150-300 bracket

22% vs 7% uniques

[valid jolt]

Hey guys - really really tired of seeing daily fights in here and insulting members

[tacit pendant]

0 prayer thrall is probably something that should be a blanket change or not a change ar all

[obsidian venture]

Everyone’s really tired of Tassili

[valid jolt]

i am not a sweaty nerd and cant fact check everything

[obsidian venture]

So there’s a good solution

[minor whale]

Maybe if someone who admits to trolling and baiting would be removed from discussions

[true talon]

Thats even worst 3% of all completetions which is printing 7% of the uniques.

[minor whale]

That would help

[gaunt kestrel]

this is justifiable due to the difficulty

[obsidian venture]

No need too. There’s a chart that Jagex provided

[true talon]

Lol

[valid jolt]

everyone is just as guilty 😅 yall insulting a troll just adds fuel to the fire

[obsidian venture]

We are using that to discuss

[tacit pendant]

"Really tired of seeing fights when we dont moderate the causes"

[true talon]

Im not trolling them, they just always get mad.

[hard axle]

Where the fuck are you getting 450-500 as 14% of uniques?

[valid jolt]

full send it to meeeee

[hard axle]

Please read before telling others to back to school

[minor whale]

Calling out someone trolling is just as bad as trolling
Okidokie

[rare grotto]

reads the same person baiting/insulting every day and is tired of it
doesn't do anything about it

[valid jolt]

can i get a TDLR of what is happening here

[rare grotto]

[minor whale]

[true talon]

450-500+ is 14% of the uniques

[valid jolt]

i just got here and am asking for info to look into this 🙂

[true talon]

7+7 is 14

[obsidian venture]

People get annoyed when someone is being dumb 24/7 yes

[valid jolt]

please cut me some slack

[valid jolt]

ty king

[cloud iron]

Sure, but GM still needs a real reward in place of thrall timer extension moving to master tier. Doesn't have to be thrall related, but anything worthy of GM that's not "you can now do content you've done a dozen times... but faster!" I have dozens of zuk/ 100+ fight cave kc. It's nice but what if you hate that content? Basically nothing replaces the benefits moving out of GM.

[hard axle]

You literally said 450-500

Fuck mate

at least edit it

[true talon]

Because the graph literally says 450-499 so i had to include 500

[wispy current]

U get a cool zuk helm dude be happy

[true talon]

I didnt cut off at 500 only i could have added the +

[hard axle]

No prayer thrall is huge

[hard axle]

Then add it

[burnt bolt]

Zuk helm is enough of a reward

[cloud iron]

Uh no. I want real rewards and a cosmetic for completing the highest tier of combat achievements the game has to offer.

[hard axle]

Yes, but there should be some rewards or the entire system might as well not exist.

I wouldn’t say no to more clue benefits like slapping low master clue chances onto bosses.

[tacit pendant]

Im ngl man. Gm could just have zuk helm and that would be enough. Mechanical changes being locked behind mastering literally every boss is not my personal cup of tea.

[dire mango]

What do you mean how? By moving the only really beneficial reward for most players (2min thrall) to masters they make the highest level mostly aspirational for the flex only, and if you get it you are also rewarded by making it a lot easier to do more aspirational content.

They want to make gm mostly a cosmetic flex like blorva or radiant. While also not having you lose 2min thralls with every new set of CA's coming out.

[cloud iron]

Yeah, maybe to you. I want things that give me an advantage for all the work I've done to achieve GM. I have extremely lazy master tier friends who now get what I worked for.

[hard axle]

[rare grotto]

lazy master friends

[hard axle]

you are asking to throw hands

[true talon]

zuk helm, 3 zuk attempts per task, unlimited teleports on your avernic. cosmetic avernic. reduced god war kc for nex(now dead content)

[marsh hedge]

🪞

[burnt bolt]

95% of GM is just a grind, and the last 5% is finding an 8 man team

[cloud iron]

Yeah and that's a massive mistake not to give a real advantage to the players who put the work in. I didn't go for GM just for the flex.

[true talon]

Forgot the other % of reclaiming it every single update lol.

[analog crow]

Not every challenge needs some big reward

[hard axle]

Unlimited teleports to gwd exist as low as hard tier iirc.

inferno bank is worthless if you’re not speedrunning

[cloud iron]

Say what you will but it's a true challenge and deserves a real reward other than flex

[marsh hedge]

Gming for the thrall is crazy work, i ngl respawn that with over a min left frequently

[true talon]

I wasnt speaking about the gwd teleport, i know thats on hard tier. the teleport on your avernic is nice though.

[rare grotto]

gm is not hard, u just gotta grind for it. And it's lame that u gotta do dumb tasks just to not have to spend as much prayer as the next person

[burnt bolt]

People send 100s or 1000s of raids for a recolor or pet that goes in their POH forever

[tacit pendant]

Its time to give fang kit +1 str over base fang.

[hard axle]

People say this until they don’t go with carries and go with actual people who’ve never done this before.

Perfect ToB 20+ times

[rare grotto]

yes but i didn't do it for just the flex. I want my reward. It's also spikier!!

[cloud iron]

The GM rewards even pre thrall to masters were already a joke. Benefits for dead content. Thralls were all it really had

[hard axle]

Which is master tier too

[kindred pier]

tbf, it originally was meant to just be cosmetic

[marsh hedge]

in mate thats a fang min hit

[cloud iron]

Okay and that was originally just as big of a mistake as it is now

[wispy current]

Just dont go for gm if u dont like the rewards

[marsh hedge]

should give master avernic +1 too

[kindred pier]

fair enough, I still go for it just for the helm tho

[true talon]

Dont need to add any additonal str or benefits to cosmetics

[cloud iron]

Not much else to do in the game with 90% med level content

[tacit pendant]

Mcdonalds dragon defender is now +10 str. Best i could do

[rare grotto]

imo u should only get QoL improvements with master/GM, locking gameplay changing rewards behind it aint it

whether it be stats or w/e

[kindred pier]

yea

[hard axle]

Partially just to piss off Sani, I want them to remove book of the dead via GM perk

[true talon]

Thralls is nice, i can live without them. but the biggest CA bracket is elite.

[rare grotto]

harder for ppl to get into pvm when ur going to tell them they have to grind 99 stats + do masters + do whatever

[kindred pier]

that, would be nice... but probably too big

[burnt bolt]

Thought about trying a different game/new account or whatever?

[cloud iron]

Disagree. More prestige = items and abilities with real benefits over other players who have not put in the work. It's the same idea behind why pures should get addies for doing all the quests vs noobs that just buy cb brace

Jagex has a real problem rewarding effort

[tender harness]

fuck pures

[dire mango]

How do you flex your 2min thralls so others know you're a superior player exactly?

[cloud iron]

Keep the reddit snark to yourself if you're not being constructive

[cloud iron]

It's the fact that I have them and they don't. I'll still spam the thrall button after 30s

[tender harness]

how about play the game the intended way instead of bitching and moaning if you lose GM on your zerker/pure

[analog crow]

You can stand at the GE with your zuk helm isn't that a good reward?

[tacit pendant]

Having to gm before you are not throwing at raids is not a good idea.

[cloud iron]

How about nah and I'll argue with bad design

[tender harness]

holy

[analog crow]

Big rewards behind gm would be terrible design

[restive siren]

There is a reasonable level of skill and grind required where player power increases need to stop otherwise you create a Ton more gatekeeping/boosting and General resentment from 99% of the playerbase

[dire mango]

You still have the cool helm and defender kit to show that. You're not losing any prestige by master CAs getting 2min thralls.

[cloud iron]

Ikr. Mind blowing that people want real rewards for doing the hardest challenges in the game. Crazy concept right????

[true talon]

Finally someone who understands lol

[rare grotto]

yes but the CAs aren't difficult

they're a timesink

it's the same reason grinding to 99 stats sucks for all parties

[restive siren]

The reward is very real, you not liking it doesnt change that, you arent entitled to anything

[night apex]

why make purples rarer, and punish people learning to do higher invos???? to make things rarer.... just up the item sink?

[tender harness]

time sink + a fair amount are buyable/boostable

[dire mango]

Do people want that though? currently there is no real reward for doing either blorva or radiant, yet people blow 100s of mills to get them. just for the cosmetic flex

[tacit pendant]

Nah socko all this does is make toa 20mil an hour

[marsh hedge]

considering they murdered bloodied blows its time to add radiant to gm

[night apex]

imo if i was running 300s right now, why would i ever go up

[cloud iron]

Brother I know you're just some elitist but people do actually do GM cas and have a sense of accomplishment after finishing what they consider a challenge.

[tacit pendant]

Unrelated but can we make granite dust tradeable. Its genuinely the only thing GGs need

[analog crow]

better gp/hr because of the shadow chance

[true talon]

Hey remember those unique contracts?

[marsh hedge]

wdym elitist arent u the one that wants rewards for gm

[night apex]

do people actually run "money" 300s

thats wild if so

[cloud iron]

That's similar but not the same. Combat achievements have rewards built in to each tier, and GM rewards have always been lacking for the effort needed to achieve them. It's not balanced well

[tacit pendant]

Yes, right after finishing their vork trip

[slender vapor]

All 300s are money 300s if you're an iron

[rare grotto]

i'm a man for the billybobs. Whatever gets them easier into pvm 😇

[true talon]

Maybe in w329 lol

[minor whale]

The unique contracts that at 100% completion rate count for 9% of all total uniques?

[tacit pendant]

The barrier to max dps shouldnt be gm cas. This is not a hot take, and jagex clearly agrees.

[thick beacon]

as an iron i feel these rates are unfair to newer players. my biggest concern isint even with rates but hm this nerfs higher raid lvls

[gaunt kestrel]

the purples at toa have always been overtuned unfortunately

its what happens when you want to make the raid worth doing at 150, 300 and beyond

[night apex]

purple at tob is 1/9 and the raid is shorter

[rain fulcrum]

Aren't most newer players not running 400s tho

[rare grotto]

it's why i'm for ways to make combat training faster, like when i wanted to get into osrs it was like oh hey you have to do 300 hours of nmz hope u have fun

[cloud iron]

What's real about it if you hate inferno? There's no benefit. If you look at it objectively, for the effort GM rewards have always been lacking

[gaunt kestrel]

yes but the people completing tob arent 75% soloers

[thick beacon]

wish it balanced to be worse on both lower raid lvl ends/higher raid lvl ends more uniques/completions came from 1-399raid lvl barrier then post 400 barrier

[rare grotto]

like running in the raid with sub99 stats is trolling

[rain fulcrum]

Half drop rates for solo in toa problemo fixed

Make the people have to socialize to get purples

[tacit pendant]

I dont even think this will be the case but: if 450s were meta for shadow farming, personally i think a 450 is more palatable than 550 from a purely enjoyment standpoint

[rain fulcrum]

The ultimate barrier

[night apex]

imo high level invos can get the same treatment as hmt, lower rate for fangs but dont change rate

[thick beacon]

ye but they can eventually get better to do it but now their grind will be much worse

[cloud iron]

I'm not saying thrall extension should stay in GM tier. I'm saying we need a replacement that's not infinite inferno boost

[gaunt kestrel]

so you are askign for a buff basically

[night apex]

im asking to not get nerfed :/

[gaunt kestrel]

its gonna get nerfed my man

[tacit pendant]

I would be down for more ca rewards that are strictly qol yeah

[gaunt kestrel]

it shouldve gotten nerfed 1+y ago

[thick beacon]

id like to have seen it be curved in a way where ur getting nerfed less and less up to like 450-500 raid lvl only being like 5% worse

[rain fulcrum]

I mean I'm guessing most people get a fang B4 going that high right? And getting fang will arguably be even easier post buff

[dire mango]

it is balanced well though. You're only looking at the rewards that benefit you as a player, not accounting for the prestige. Elite CAs have good rewards but nobody cares if you have them. Masters are cool for many and the rewards are neat. GM is a big flex for the avg player but has little to no actual rewards.

[night apex]

sadge balance the entire game because shadow was op on launch

[rain fulcrum]

Then it's not like irons care about getting less dup fangs when they bump rl

[cloud iron]

Being GM doesn't make you an elitist.

[rare grotto]

??

that's not what jae said

[thick beacon]

well shadow is affected to

[night apex]

do mains care about getting more or less dupe fangs?

[tacit pendant]

What if gm hilt gets all the tps on drakans medallion, sceptre, chambers tele etc. Akin to a max cape for already existent pvm teles

[minor whale]

ToA purples in general are WAY too common

[night apex]

like even if fang goes up to 20m lets say

[minor whale]

They absolutely need an across-the-board nerf

[gaunt kestrel]

depends if you mean 5% off of the current rate or 5% overall

[rare grotto]

doesn't matter. Anything that's not a shadow is kinda "ehh" territory

whether u get a fang or lb it's kinda the same feeling

[rain fulcrum]

Yeah but it's more in like with what u said

[night apex]

exactly

[rain fulcrum]

About 10% at 500

No idea at 540 cuz they didn't show

[gaunt kestrel]

i think the changes are pretty fair, but im a toa shitter so the better gamers probably have a more complete picture

[restive siren]

No they were not lacking. As i said earlier, there is a level of skill/grind req at which player power needs to stop and rewards need to be flex only. Look at any other online game with a healthy player base for reference.

[marsh hedge]

the shadow rate wasnt affected thaaat much but its def worse which slightly sucks

[rain fulcrum]

Ig u wouldn't do that as a shadowless iron tho

[thick beacon]

400 requires like 35% more chests now

[burnt bolt]

Masori top/legs are still 50 and 40m

[night apex]

shadowless iron caps pretty hard in mid 400s unless youre really that guy

[compact flicker]

I'm just 'ing here too while being a noob

[tacit pendant]

I wanna know how much of a time save these changes are. Time to shadow at 500 might not even be that nerfed

[thick beacon]

feel like nerf couldve been spread out more and be less overall

lower raid lvls make up a big part of uniques to

[night apex]

if the raid is 20% faster

[rain fulcrum]

282 to 350 sounds like a 25% bump to me

[night apex]

then itll balence

[dire mango]

You're the one advocating that beneficial rewards that affect gameplay should be locked behind completing hard PVM. Thus you hold the elitist opinion. That was the point jae made.

[gaunt kestrel]

yea its just 400s you never needed to really do any mechanics besides the default raids one

[marsh hedge]

Its 25% and the raid is easier

[cloud iron]

LMAO. Yeah exactly, it has little to no actual rewards. Thanks for spelling out my point. So they take what little it did have, move it down, and give us infinity boosted inferno? Which is basically nothing if you hate that content. Yeah, that's a problem. GM has always needed something that matches the effort put in to get there. It doesn't have to be thrall anything, but it should either immensely upgrade gameplay QOL like max cape or give a true advantage over master tier.

[night apex]

crying into the void ty for indulging me

[gaunt kestrel]

can face tank baba and not bf akkha in that raid level

[marsh hedge]

thats still net worse but i dont think thats that bad

[thick beacon]

25% is alot idt thats easy thing to get back

[gaunt kestrel]

and have access to white potion so its

[marsh hedge]

nah its definitely net worse

[rain fulcrum]

I mean it is supposed to be a nerf right

[dire mango]

You just refuse to acknowledge that prestige is the reward don't you?

[gaunt kestrel]

and it should be net worse imo

[rare grotto]

well if akkha changes go through (and hopefully some changes to zebak's defence) it's already way more bearable for non shadowers

bowfa akkha is decent enough

[marsh hedge]

yeah so like

[burnt bolt]

You're very angry over a reward which rewards using a couple less prayer points on thralls

[rain fulcrum]

I get it's unfair for new ppl compared to old but they can't leave the rates fucked forever

[tough nacelle]

I dunno I think this is good

[cloud iron]

It's an incorrect point. I simply think more effort should mean more reward. Everyone else says flex is enough, I disagree

[tough nacelle]

The raid has more slow parts like baba

[marsh hedge]

idk i dont think its that bad that u dont have a shadow yet

lowkey like

[tough nacelle]

Akka is slower too now

[cloud iron]

You just don't get it lol

[marsh hedge]

no fang 400s is sooo much easier

[tough nacelle]

So maybe one shot mechanics won't be AS bad

[burnt bolt]

Best time was to do it on release, second best time is to do it asap pretty much yeah lol

[marsh hedge]

like if u are good at ToA its probably a buff for 400s if u dont have a fang

like legit

[tough nacelle]

Since theres chill parts

[burnt bolt]

I do, we just all disagree with you

[thick beacon]

saving grace for me imo is eye staff/bracelet gona make shadow pretty mid and fine

[cloud iron]

Are you GM?

[tough nacelle]

I dunno about that

[dire mango]

We get it, it's just that you have a very different perception of what you think GM is supposed to be than most.

[burnt bolt]

Its 100% a buff for any none-shadow enjoyers, aside from drop rates getting nerfed across the board ofc

[rain fulcrum]

I like the factt that this removes the semi exponential reward scaling

[tough nacelle]

But it definitely helps non shadow

[thick beacon]

it was like only 6% worse on olm

[rare grotto]

most of us just see GM for what it is (a timesink that isn't indicative of skill)

[hard axle]

Remember that this comes with hp and defense scaling changes, so it might be same EHB to get items

[thick beacon]

like its way better then trident

[night apex]

Imagine nerf shadow 10% so it isn’t hard required for end game

[hard axle]

If they fix hp and defense to be reduced more, new players actually have a fucking chance at 450+

[tough nacelle]

Oh that's significant, I'm thinking moreso vs bosses we don't mage

[cloud iron]

Good thing that doesn't matter at all lol, I know the majority of people here are terminally online redditors who value snark over being constructive

[gaunt kestrel]

gm is hyper devalued with all the powercreep anyways

[marsh hedge]

na i still think its net worse for fang havers but i do think its not the end of the world. and you will likely have a more enjoyable raid for only a 25% nerf

[true talon]

Correct, you get a slayer helm cosmetic that you never wear, because your in inferno 24/7 where no1 can see you. doubt youll see a zuk helmer doing any slayer outside of tural skipping for zuk tasks.

[rain fulcrum]

Where do they say they're changing defense

[gaunt kestrel]

unless they maintained all the speed times and updated them with powercreep then i think its not really presitgious at all

[burnt bolt]

If you think >90% of people who did GM did it for more than just the prestige you are coped out of your mind sir

[rain fulcrum]

I must have missed it

[cloud iron]

It's actually a pretty common thought that higher achievement and more effort should mean more reward

[gaunt kestrel]

gm was cool untill ike toa dropped

[tough nacelle]

Speed times suck imo

For CAs

[rain fulcrum]

Raid speeds r fine

[thick beacon]

their approach was to add new inbetween gem for non fang

[rare grotto]

nowhere, we're just coping

[rain fulcrum]

Until they get crept

[rare grotto]

zebak's def should be adjusted though

[gaunt kestrel]

the long form speed times are good though

short form speed times will always be cringe

[tough nacelle]

Depends how

[true talon]

Id love for them to just straight up remove slayer helm cosmetics and allow us to just have the slayer perk when on task without the helm. this would fix the problems presented by set balance.

[rain fulcrum]

I don't get why they don't just remove the def scaling past 300 or 400 or whatever

[burnt bolt]

blorva
oathplate
kits

alright buddy

[gaunt kestrel]

well all the raid speed times are pretty free

[tough nacelle]

I need frequent breaks so if downtime between bosses counts

Not beunno anymore

[rain fulcrum]

Yo can y'all shut up about them gm thralls

[rare grotto]

yeah, can compensate for this and add more hp if they wanted the raid times to stay the same

[thick beacon]

btw im saying this as someone who already did toa grind i think its a bit to much

[tough nacelle]

Like toa lobby time counting is dumb

[dire mango]

We're talking about GM. Not putting in the hours to please shareholders.

[gaunt kestrel]

assuming you are good at the content (which if you aspire to be a gm you should be)

[gaunt kestrel]

total raid time is a non issue imo

[true talon]

Fu lol. get back in there for legs.

[thick beacon]

legs with what tbow?

[tacit pendant]

Wait, mains with less than a bil bank are genuinely gonna just ZCB butterfly. Thatll be funny looking

[true talon]

Well youll have a tbow in the future surely

[tough nacelle]

I mean 10 years ago I would have agreed but I'm old nowb

[cloud iron]

I know it's a hard concept for you to understand, but those are simply cosmetic. It's s i m i l a r, but not the s a m e. Does that make sense?

[tough nacelle]

End of the day it's fine, I'll just hangout at master tier

But speed CAs are not my idea of fun

[gaunt kestrel]

my response is also just leave raid invo off 😦

[frozen lion]

Wow, nerfing drop rate of item which already costs 1b+

🤡

[marsh hedge]

idk like if u legit need breaks i understand, i think 10 invo is relatively small price to pay for that

ok now thats bait

[burnt bolt]

And EVERYONE in here is saying thats the exact same shit as GM, its more about the prestige for most people than a actual crazy reward they want out of it lol, you are hte exception not the rule

[tough nacelle]

Yeah I never run the speed invos

It's fine

Mildly annoying

[hard axle]

If it was just that, move all hard-master tier to GM since it’s just a little points.

It does matter because actual rewards do encourage you to strive up.

Remember when week 1 no one did 300s at toa because the drop rate was ass? Instead folks camped 220-295.

Remember when only 2 people did 500s before fang kit was added? They added and now everyone strived higher, which is now a CA too.

Having good rewards definitely helps in encouraging more people to go up

[tough nacelle]

But the fix would just be not make lobby time count

[thick beacon]

personally i liked base difficulty im against approach of babying toa then also nerfing rates alot more to compesate

[gaunt kestrel]

unless you're doing like a higher raid level, honestly you can still afk a decent amount w the 40min timer on

but ofc if you have stuff you have to attend to

just turn it off imo

[tough nacelle]

Yeah that's what I do

[hard axle]

Tbf, most of you also aren’t GM and thus have a vested interest in not having good rewards at that rank.

[gaunt kestrel]

yea, that's just life unfortunately

[cloud iron]

It doesn't matter what 7 other players who have a tendency towards groupthink have to say, Jagex needs to hear opinions on changes like this

[gaunt kestrel]

[hard axle]

It’s like how we don’t lock rewards at Gilded Collection Log Rank.

Or any clog tank

[marsh hedge]

I kinda agree with you but also understand the rates kinda need to be nerfed

[rain fulcrum]

Jagex likes easy cape sorry gms

[tough nacelle]

I think having good rewards is important for this

But clog should never have rewards

[hard axle]

Same

[marsh hedge]

so with that in mind at least shadow rate didnt get completely nuked

[gaunt kestrel]

honestly i'd only care for them to put substantial rewards for gm if they updated speed times

and accounted for powercreep

otherwise gm depreciation is very real

[dire mango]

bUt You ShouLd be ReWardeD fOr yoUr tIMe aNd eFfort

[tough nacelle]

I hope they add more convenient Tps for gm

[tacit pendant]

Shadow is very very cheap and eye is only gonna push it lower

[thick beacon]

ye i mean for me i think eye staff/brace will help ppl when they dont have shadow for extra 30-50hours for me thats what can help me become netrual (after inital shock)

[marsh hedge]

dont u have a shadow

[meager flame]

the problem they're gonna have with giving gm big rewards is that means they're asking everyone to go get gm

[tough nacelle]

Maybe a better pnm tp or one that takes you right to a handful boss entrances

[rain fulcrum]

Also stuff like adding weapons designed to trivialize CAS (looking at nox over here)

[cloud iron]

"You don't have to reward me for my effort, I'll take the cosmetic like a good boy"

[tough nacelle]

I don't think so

[thick beacon]

i do but i care about ppl that come after me

[meager flame]

you would be

[tough nacelle]

You don't NEED every reward

[rain fulcrum]

And then not bothering to ban it from the ca

[tough nacelle]

It's a motivation in the end

[tacit pendant]

Gm Hilt should have drakan+xeric tals+sceptre tps on it

[rain fulcrum]

Imo the raid ca should restrict your gear to that time frame

For speeds

[frozen lion]

Gm Hilt should be on grand exchange

[rain fulcrum]

That's the only way to not have to update it constantly

[dire mango]

Yes, that's literally osrs. People spend thousands of hours to go for post 99xp, pets, clogs and speedrun times

[meager flame]

you dont understand if your CA level does something impactful and big it will just mean you need it to compete baseline with other people

thats why CA rewards matter less the further you get

[gaunt kestrel]

yea that's just hella cba though

[hard axle]

Am I crazy?

Can someone look at the blog and see if they mentioned anything about hp and star scaling? Cuz I swear people never mentioned it

[meager flame]

because jagex doesn't want to tell everyone to be a normal character you must complete your CAs

[rain fulcrum]

Yeah it'd be impossible to get it on a money too

Which sucks

[gaunt kestrel]

imagine we haad category speeds

[marsh hedge]

I think its ok.. like u can legit go 0kc and start doing solo 400s as an iron now I think, where that was probably a bit more difficult before

[gaunt kestrel]

brb potting 2017 solo cm

[tough nacelle]

I dunno about that but

No fang will probably still be doodoo

[gaunt kestrel]

ik the speedrun website has the pre-update categories

[tough nacelle]

Just less doodoo

[gaunt kestrel]

but i think enforcing that ingame is

[slender vapor]

They can barely convince normal accounts to level skills as is

[rain fulcrum]

They are literally giving you a free semi fang

[meager flame]

ya i mean thats kind of the perfect comparison

[tough nacelle]

Did I miss that part

[marsh hedge]

imo the bricks for no fang are baba and akkha which are highly targeted by the changes

[meager flame]

people get upset that they have to level skills

[rare grotto]

new keris coming out

well, jewel

[meager flame]

and thats free and easy

[tough nacelle]

Oh

[marsh hedge]

along w the new keris but i wasnt even considering that cause 0kc

[gaunt kestrel]

yea the free semi-fang is pretty good compromise

[tough nacelle]

Yeah that's fair

[gaunt kestrel]

honestly i would've just prefered defence reduction

but if they want to keep it this way this works as well

[rain fulcrum]

ToA defense is sacred to them

[tough nacelle]

Baba was an absolute slog as was akkha pre fang

[meager flame]

its not that

[rain fulcrum]

Can't be allowed to use a weapon that doesn't have 4x accuracy

[tough nacelle]

If they remove defence

[meager flame]

they dont want to say hey remember when fang had a niche

[tough nacelle]

Fang is dead

[meager flame]

yeah we deleted that

go scythe toa

[tough nacelle]

Fang is good at only a few places now lol

It was a cool item that was too common

[rain fulcrum]

Good fang should die

[thick beacon]

i just assumed they only made mechanical changes/drop rate changes left everything else same

[tough nacelle]

Now it's basically useless outside nex and toa

[rain fulcrum]

Let rapier be bis what's the problem exactly

This message sponsored by Verzik

[gaunt kestrel]

honestly its still the quintessential billybob weapon

[marsh hedge]

they could increase def reduction cap by 50% i think. Would help bricks like zebak and increase the gap between range and mage, and fang should still be good

[tacit pendant]

Fang is still a crazy swiss army knife. 2nd bis at a lot of places

[gaunt kestrel]

when fang double rolled slash it was crazy

[tough nacelle]

That's fair, cheap, stronger than most

[gaunt kestrel]

AND they were gonna release the bladed moon 😭

[thick beacon]

new gem they proposing will be good imo for 2x longer fang as well

[gaunt kestrel]

from barrows 2.0

[tough nacelle]

I grinded one out to finish vardorvis and Duke With it >=}

Those were the days

[tacit pendant]

Give fang a crush option, its time

[tough nacelle]

Slash fang was fun af

But sadly too common

[gaunt kestrel]

surely remove the attack and def options on scy

make it only have aggressive

[marsh hedge]

the old fang spec might as well have been a crush attack

[tacit pendant]

Tbf they just deleted slash fang so they could give us nally

[gaunt kestrel]

and give it a stab option!

[thick beacon]

nally is not slash fang slash fang was diffrent

[tacit pendant]

It was

[gaunt kestrel]

slash fang was busted

[tacit pendant]

"We have slash fang at home"

[tough nacelle]

But it was fun 😦

It may have been broken

[thick beacon]

dt ppl even talked about sra blade back then

when slash fang existed

[tough nacelle]

But holy crap it was fun

[rare grotto]

Not hitting 0s is fun

[gaunt kestrel]

sra and blade were absolutely dead content when pre fang nerf

[tough nacelle]

Consistent kcs

[rare grotto]

Ggive us more defence reduction

[gaunt kestrel]

i mean sra didnt get buffed yet so it was double dead

[hard axle]

god, pre-nerf fang was an abomination and I wish I abused it more on Vard lmao

[tough nacelle]

Sra was ass

[tacit pendant]

Give us HORN CLAWS

[tough nacelle]

man you missed out

[thick beacon]

sra still ass imo

[marsh hedge]

couldnt pb during fang bug cause was colo locked at the time smh

[gaunt kestrel]

nally is also like, not as good as people make it out to be

[hard axle]

My ego refused to use fang

[tacit pendant]

Sra v good what

[gaunt kestrel]

iirc its like, >salad/ddef but <salad/avern

[tough nacelle]

The 1 range would be nice as a toggle

[hard axle]

Same reason why I refused to GM again until I got whiteplate

[tough nacelle]

It tied to an attack style

[hard axle]

[thick beacon]

to whacky without much reward esp for learners

[gaunt kestrel]

akkha orb plate

[tough nacelle]

I'd love to use noxious as a 1 range wep

[gaunt kestrel]

[tough nacelle]

Instead as a 2 range at times

Of

[hard axle]

“No we’re not using the other phrase” - Jagex

[marsh hedge]

how often is that detrimental

[hard axle]

[tacit pendant]

Yeah i like the wacky tho. Bf up the hp loss and tick eat with spec is fun

[tough nacelle]

I got muted for an hour using it

[marsh hedge]

like sol if u dont hit myopia

[thick beacon]

think wdr tob has a piece about 99% ppl would be better off bringing extra scp at tob then using sra

[hard axle]

I think the same too?

[gaunt kestrel]

same goes for nally

[tough nacelle]

Sol no myopia, and muscle memory for dragcin

[hard axle]

But now they just removed it from being used entirely

[tough nacelle]

Drag in

[hard axle]

I still need to learn sol drag

[marsh hedge]

idk what else, if ur 5.3ting verz w hally its worse than whip and u shouldnt be 5.3/5ting a hally at xarp

[tough nacelle]

I don't know tob super well but I'd rather practice p3 with it instead of a wacky tile move

[marsh hedge]

ok thats fair but also myopia ig

[tacit pendant]

Tob has alot of things that specifically screw over Sra

[thick beacon]

i felt like u can mix max 5t webs/bloat stuff and nboss thought it me be nice with 5t cycle

the hally^

[tough nacelle]

It's also just nice to be able to click and be dragged in imo

[meager flame]

SRA will unfortunately be a completely dead item the next time they make a slash weapon remotely near it

[tough nacelle]

I'm too used to it

But I love the range at times too,

Makes for a unique weapon

[tacit pendant]

I doubt we get a bis slash weapon for a very long time

[meager flame]

they had this cool idea of a weapon with downsides and forgot that no other weapon has downsides

[thick beacon]

personally already gona skip it on iron dont see value

[wispy current]

Have they said around when we can see the toa changes?

[tough nacelle]

Nope

[normal rover]

Hey guys. Anyone else noticed significantly higher ping after yesterdays update?

[marsh hedge]

those use cases are fine its just that the 1+ range is whatever

[tough nacelle]

?Soon?

[tacit pendant]

Axe on an iron is basically just "i spooned it going for rings"

[meager flame]

things like SRA are only good when they're like

actually bis

its pretty weird when its not even the best atm

[tacit pendant]

We get no 1x1 or 2x2 bosses

[tough nacelle]

SRA is cool but only because crush weapons are crap

SRA also needs a better animation

It's animation is kinda horrid

[gaunt kestrel]

dh anims are goated ngl

[thick beacon]

ye its not that great just some of the very niche things i saw

[meager flame]

plus honestly

[gaunt kestrel]

for me its nostalgic as hell

but thats just my opinion

[meager flame]

i actually kinda think SRA design sucks

[thick beacon]

i havint even looked into nboss dps so it could be crap for that

[meager flame]

everyone complains about chip and it just comes with the bullshit preinstalled

[tough nacelle]

Lack of a crush weapon imo is the only reason SRA exists

[meager flame]

lmao

[tough nacelle]

I like the weapon and it's fun to use

I just wish it had a unique animation

[gaunt kestrel]

nothing that brew scb can't solve imo

[marsh hedge]

i think whip is actually better for nylo king esp if u can get a 3 whip phase, but if ur used to 5t melee wep i dont think its a big deal to use it there

[tough nacelle]

If you could toggle the range

It would let you practice before scythe

Especially for irons

[marsh hedge]

i dont think the range toggling changes that

i think its just sol rly

[tough nacelle]

Doesn't the drag in affect verzik for cabbage timing?

[meager flame]

but yeah other than the weapon starting me off at what is sometimes a really inconvenient hp and dropping stacks during forced downtime

i actually really like using it

[tough nacelle]

Nylo it doesn't

[marsh hedge]

Oh for verzik yes

[hard axle]

Fuck mb, I was wrong. They never mentioned HP/Defense Scaling on either Summer Sweep Blog.

[tough nacelle]

Sadly not

[marsh hedge]

I mean like I said if ur 5.3ting hally its worse than whip. Like i guess its practice but also thats whatever its not really that different than a whip

[meager flame]

idk why people would do that though

using hally 5t isn't that hard

[thick beacon]

for me they kinda adressed it indirectly with the new gem they adding. gona be inbetween fang/hasta

[meager flame]

at least on verzik

[tacit pendant]

Just buff blue gem, a green gem or whatever is pointless

[meager flame]

its actually kinda sick because you can pretty much check out on everything except for crabs

[kindred pier]

what new gem

[wispy current]

I thought the new gem would be pre fang

For irons without fang

[tacit pendant]

It is

Blue gem is already this for kephri

[hard axle]

[viscid cipher]

I feel like every elemental weakness news make harm staff look shit

[wispy current]

Oh i read yowa wrong mb

[hard axle]

Always the iron-only changes

Or iron-driven changes

[meager flame]

i mean thats gonna just be a noob change

[tacit pendant]

It has a few things with these next changes, but its def in a weird spot

[meager flame]

since they wont be able to buy a fang shortly

[thick beacon]

ye they dont even hide it just say iron

[viscid cipher]

Yea

[tacit pendant]

Problem with harm is you also lose thrall and dc

[thick beacon]

might be a change for mains if fang goes up to 30-40m to

[hard axle]

I am not against them making blue Keris even stronger tbh

[meager flame]

i would request them to buff the blue keris too

[gaunt kestrel]

yea its just bad habits

[meager flame]

i do not want them to take another bank slot from me

[viscid cipher]

It just low use overall

[rain fulcrum]

Wasn't that shit pretty similar to oathplate in accuracy bonus creep I can't believe they considered giving that to a billybob boss

[viscid cipher]

You really don’t use harm staff on high level monster…

[gaunt kestrel]

yea it was like nearly +60 slash accuracy bro

+60!

[viscid cipher]

Even with 50% weakness

[gaunt kestrel]

like wtf

[viscid cipher]

Nothing over pass 50%

[tacit pendant]

Itll be slightly better at pnm with parasite potentially getting one shot by mage? (I assume adding that weakness means a change to fire mage also max hitting idk?)

[rain fulcrum]

Sometimes I think jagex posts overtuned stuff hoping we don't notice

[gaunt kestrel]

oh absolutely

thats my conspiracy

[hard axle]

At 70% and double pillar damage, surge actually rivals shadow

[tacit pendant]

It has some very... weird new uses, maybe a noob weapon at tob

[gaunt kestrel]

surge is actually > shadow

[hard axle]

So you’ll need at least 130% elemental weakness lmao

[gaunt kestrel]

at pnm pillars

[tacit pendant]

Harm currently does beat shadow at pnm

[gaunt kestrel]

its just the pillars die in 2 hits regardless of whatever you use

so the ttk difference is negligable on a practical level

[hard axle]

130-140% elemental weakness is what you need yeah

[novel breach]

Make salamanders do fire damage and able to take advantage of the fire elemental weakness for higher max hits.

Additionally, make enchanted bolts also take into account elemental weaknesses. Dragonstone - Fire damage
Pearl - water
Jade - Earth

It only makes sense and if you want really want to keep emphasizing elemental weaknesses this would be the natural next step while additionally helping rid the reliance on Ruby enchanted bolts.

[tacit pendant]

From my experience shadow just hits a 5 4 times ina row anyways

[gaunt kestrel]

yea wcyd i also have a billybob shadow

[rain fulcrum]

i am a casual pnm sang-er

so much chill

[wispy current]

Jagex for sure gave us a timeframe for delve right what was it again

[gaunt kestrel]

varlamore p3

presumably(?) late summer(?)

[wispy current]

Didnt they say late june?