🤔｜theories

[vivid bridge]

If we still had smaller flash games, I think a game at the bridge would be fun

[floral mauve]

It could have been a chapter in case 23

[errant estuary]

aw man, i was banking on a game where we play as the paradise goat

[vivid bridge]

the bridge only exists for the whiteboard puzzle

😭

and that one time james walked over it

[stiff ledge]

It would be cool if they gave more context to the bridge in the lore

And also a game for it

but oh well

[vivid bridge]

one day, bridge believers

[west basin]

I think the entire map of Cube escape the Cave, forgot to add in.. Paradise, I think it should be like in the middle of the map.

[floral mauve]

it is still in roots painting map

[west basin]

I think maybe it is in the dead center, sort of off where the Hotel is...Like Ellesain said about the bridge and somehow it connects all worlds.

[azure bay]

There is Paradise on the map in The Cave

only it's been a hotel for more than 100 last years

[west basin]

Yeah, the hotel is Paradise.

[vivid bridge]

So whats up with Mr. Cleaner? He seems to be in a lot of the BKM rooms

is he part of some puzzle

[real lantern]

Mr clean is our new humanoid being, half human half the-concept-of-cleanliness ™️ /j

[vivid bridge]

Okay but how does that fit in the lore

[wheat ore]

imagine Mr. Clean sues the lake /j

[wheat ore]

I am sure we will find out !

[errant estuary]

clearly the place is real nasty

[dry sparrow]

I mean, it is the RUSTY lake /j

[west basin]

Mr. Clean 2028 robot exe, hahahaa..

But hey doesn't he look familiar?

[west basin]

What if Laura was Vincent?

[vapid hinge]

Did Seasons really happen or was it more like Theater, Paradox, and Birthday where it was an attempt to correct memories for the creation of the gold cube (which we haven't seen since it was made in Cave/Paradox and sent with Dale

[vivid bridge]

Yes and no

Seasons is Laura visiting her past memories like how Dale visited his in Birthday

Though we don't really know when it happens or why

There are a few things that are really confusing about it, like the 1981 memory (which shouldn't really exist)

[dry sparrow]

Actually where did Laura become the corrupted soul?

[royal notch]

In the mill, in 1972.

[errant estuary]

she likely did when she had her memories extracted

[azure bay]

Why so hard to assume that something really happened in 1981?

It's not rocket science

In fact, Occam would be proud

[errant estuary]

im assuming that is when she truly regained lucidity, and managed to collect her memories

[vivid bridge]

But she was dead at that point

Either we'd have to assume that memory cubes auto-update post-extraction which I find hard to believe or Laura becomes alive again, makes the memory and then dies again

Soul Street is clearly made up. It's obviously not a real location because nothing is in the metro so we don't have to think about where this place is. Winter 1981 is a location, though. It's not a made up shadow realm in the cube, it's her house like 10 years after she died

Again, I usually just chalk it up to being early game weirdness and the devs just didn't think about it

[errant estuary]

sure yeah

i just fill in blanks with bullshit

[vivid bridge]

Seasons wants you to think you play as the murderer who returns to the location 10 years later only to be like "hey, plot twist! You ARE the woman. It was suicide"

which is a fun plot twist but doesn't really make sense with the '81 memory

Basically what i'm saying is that speculating about anything in 1981 is practically fanfiction

we basically don't know anything

[errant estuary]

true

surface level, i think seasons reminds me a lot of how it feels to try and remember something, but the remembering being more detail than bigger picture

things like an egg, or a casette playing, or the dread of thinking your lamp’s staring at you, or the sound of a blender

that stuff

idk i have neurological issues

so i beam my silly mind squiggles at anything i like

[vivid bridge]

Yeah I get that

Seasons is a good first game

[azure bay]

Corrupted souls make memories too and they lose them more easily

We have Caroline's memory about her own burial

And we have Bob just giving his cube away in Case 23

[vivid bridge]

Tbh, and I know you're gonna hate me for this, but I think its the same issue of that not making any sense. Like did that cube just manifest after the fact? Did the cube manifesting at her death predict the future?

Shit doesn't make sense

Season's has the additional problem of having cubes inside cubes? Like even if CS' just randomly spit out cubes, how does that work with Laura? Does her one black cube just update instead?

It's just a lot weird assumptions

It's why i'm waiting for the Dale Laura finale game to come out so we can see what even happens to Laura

[azure bay]

I think it was more simple than that.

Caroline's cubes are not random. Their contant is deliberate. So I think she witnessed her own burial and then extracted the respective cube for Jakob

And I think it was almost the same for Winter 1981

Besides the devs said there are things to show in 1981

It makes me 90% sure something did take place then

[vivid bridge]

And i'd be interested to see what it is

[azure bay]

It makes 2 of us

[errant estuary]

imagine being the real estate agent for laura’s house after she died

nightmare

[azure bay]

"we have a scientist ghost. Just ignore it and its experiments"

[vivid bridge]

I wish there was more concrete world building. Actually show us the town Laura lives in. It's so strange that the only place we know with a name besides RL is fucking New York

[azure bay]

I tend to think fucking New York is the place where Laura lived

[errant estuary]

“the woman who lived here previously was found in a grisly homicide scene, and her body allegedly disappeared, and hasn’t ever turned up”

[vivid bridge]

I mean, it seems to be

its where Bob lives

[azure bay]

Or at least where his cube was found alingside Hoorn's body

[errant estuary]

very silly goofy crackpot theory: fucking new york was overtaken by cube worshippers and absorbed into the micronation of rusty lake

because i think that it being an in universe event that rusty lake turned into a micronation is funny

[vivid bridge]

I'm always very worried that they're gonna make rusty lake this big thing in-universe

Stuff like the Mr. Owl statue

but that doesn't even seem to exist because metro

[errant estuary]

true

but dammit, we be needing pseudostates that aren’t actually legally recognized by governments

[vivid bridge]

I hate how Freddy Fazbear's Pizzeria is supposed to be this little shitty local restaurant and then all the books have Freddy's be this global megacorp that has like departments for genetic engineering and space travel and whatever and like half the finances of the united states is based on freddys

I don't want Rusty Lake to be like that

[errant estuary]

i think if it’s the size of jämtlands län it’d be fine

[covert wyvern]

[errant estuary]

that it’s mostly an endonym in the area, but not actually sovereign

[vivid bridge]

Like Mr. Owl being on the money is already kind of annoying to me

how does Dale not know what rusty lake is if the guy is on the damn dollar bill

[errant estuary]

yeah

that is a bit odd

mr boar is only an ambassador because he has to try and get rusty lake to stop being weird

instantly regrets

[west basin]

Since we got to know Bob pretty well at this point, I wonder if he just wonder off and made more birdseed and kept his head above water, eventually fall in places of where that he just found Laura at that time, and saw of her past duration of UG through Harvey's eyes.

[errant estuary]

i think they just met, and then bonded partially through bob getting her free bird food because i still dont know what laura worked with

[west basin]

I believe that Laura worked on set designs at the theater.

Given her artistic taste.

[errant estuary]

hmmmm

oh god that is… yet another patient that mr owl has employed

if that is the case

i dont know how to feel about that

[west basin]

Yeah there is a giant gap of Harvey's box and Birthday of where we do not see Laura at all.

She was being treated for therapy, and have the carrer of building the sets on theater.

[errant estuary]

i dont know why, i just think the conduct of rusty lake mental health and fishing has predatory vibes

[west basin]

Laura was reserected.

We all know by now this.

[errant estuary]

though… i guess there are places that give jobs to people with for example developmental disabilities

so i might just be a hater

[steel imp]

I think that rusty lake culture has always been omnipresent in the rusty lake world, or at least inside the geographical area that we explore

[steel imp]

Most americans don't know who Benjamin Frenklin is or what he did even if he is on the big 100

[vivid bridge]

you know what

good point

Mr. Owl is the RL universe equivalent to the eye of providence

Dale saw Mr. Owl and was like "holy shit the illuminati?!"

[errant estuary]

blud lives in a dystopian state 😭

[slow ridge]

Why doesn’t Dale just jump out from the window, aside the fact that we need to keep on playing?

[errant estuary]

idk

i doubt theyd put the thought of that possiblity in dale’s brains

[vivid bridge]

he's too fat

[slow ridge]

Maybe he tries that sometime before, because he’s been trapped in there for multiple times already

[vivid bridge]

good point actually. There's a lot of failed dales in the forest. Maybe one of them just went through the window

[errant estuary]

the one with the deer head

he instantly got mauled by a deer, killed it

[vivid bridge]

it's weird how the lab line isn't on the bkm line despite clearly being the same place

[azure bay]

Not so sure anymore for some reason

[vivid bridge]

they use the same design, have the same ⚠️ doors and Rose's lab from the TPW trailer is in BKM, including Albert

[azure bay]

seems fair

[astral frost]

what if Rose's lab was a secret location from bkm?

[vivid bridge]

I mean, yeah, that surprised me too

It wasn't

I was totally expecting the lab to appear based on the vhs tape

like these weren't even here

also

god this stupid metro

I hate this god damn train

Since I guess Harvey visiting Rose at the lab really did happen?

So the train is literally a time and space warping train

I hate this

[azure bay]

except I don't think the train is something real

or designed

[royal notch]

A little reminder: just as in the actual game, everything happened in the lab can legitimately happen without Harvey's presence at all. So no problem yet about metaphors and reality mix.

[vivid bridge]

Yeah but Harvey does press the button

and why would Harvey go to a fake lab

[royal notch]

The button could be just a gameplay element, or be pressed by any of Rose's coworkers (even by her father's corrupted soul, if really necessary). What do you mean with fake lab?

[vivid bridge]

The locations in UB aren't actual locations, they're just sorta stages for the events of the game to happen on

Soul Street is completely made up and Sorrow Cross is also fake since we know that's not where Laura died. So it stands to reason that none of the main locations actually happened

The lake is real since we see the white cube house, Mr. Owl from The Cave and the Rose Tree and presumably the secret lake station is real, too? Since he meets with Owl

So I guess this train can just straight up time travel

and location travel?

[royal notch]

I think all stations are metaphorical, just not completely made up in the air. The Lake and the hotel are indeed real locations, just not connected with a metaphysical metro. So can be this lab as well.

[vivid bridge]

but the lake and hotel are connected with the metaphysical metro

that's the problem

if the whole game was just random bs with laura, then sure, who cares. But since Laura at the end is seemingly in the real world and is the main series Laura from The Cave, that means its canon. It has to fit into the timeline somehow

like somehow we have to fit this between Mill and Cave

[royal notch]

That can be just a visual achievement/reference/ teaser for us. It doesn't have to be canon. Like Harvey being in Paradise doesn't necessarily have to be. These are achievements after all.

[vivid bridge]

That feels like coping

We can't just ignore blatant information like that

like how UB's ending is a continuation of TPW

If UB was all metaphorical, it wouldn't do that

[azure bay]

why tho?

[vivid bridge]

Bad writing

If a game is completely metaphorical with no connections to the actual canon, then you wouldn't connect it to the ending of the last game

[azure bay]

I disagree

[azure bay]

that's subjective

It has to have connections

like Laura's pose when she's dead

I think the tree was necessary for basic understanding

so was the cube and the hotel

I'll just leave it here for you guys to study. UB The Lab spoiler alert

[faint flame]

So in relation to the news on the story, from the chapter "The Lab" of Underground Blossom we learn that ||Rose had carried out tests of the resurrection process, before the correct success in 1984; she also kept Albert's corrupted soul segregated in the laboratory and that everything she did (resurrection and sacrifice) was totally done to bring Laura back to life||. Correct?

[azure bay]

Sounds about right

although, some would probably appreciate spoiler tags

[faint flame]

Sorry, I fixed it

[azure bay]

[vivid bridge]

Yeah I guess Rose was using Albert to turn into a tree in order to help Laura

though tbh, I don't know if I like that

Seems like a self fulfilling prophecy

"I'll leave my daughter to develop a cure for her future mommy issues"

[faint flame]

I'll add one more thing. I don't know if it's already been said or theorized by anyone, but with Underground Blossom I think they wanted to reveal to us that Seasons takes place entirely in Laura's mind when she is connected to the White Room machinery. The clues in favor of this hypothesis are that Laura in Seasons is already a corrupted soul (she was therefore already dead), and is a corrupted soul even when she is connected to the machine.
My hypothesis is that she goes on her own mental journey in the White Room, as Dale does with Paradox, and she travels between past memories and a hypothetical future (1981) to sort out some stuff. After succeeding, just as Dale succeeds in his objective, Rose's sacrifice takes effect (which takes place at the bottom of the lake, where time does not exist and therefore although we are in 1972, Rose's sacrifice in 1984 takes effect). Laura then comes back to life (in the final scene of Underground Blossom we find her alive and corporeal when she goes up the elevator with Mr. Crow), Dale exits the Paradox and now they are ready to go up to the Hotel for the final.

Let me know what you think, it could be a major revelation about Seasons and would finally give it some definitive meaning.

[azure bay]

Just in case, this one doesn't need to be hidden because it touches older games

And now about theorizing

[vivid bridge]

The thing is that Seasons doesn't resemble Paradox at all. Seasons is clearly supposed to be a regular cube visit like when Dale entered the birthday cube

[azure bay]

Yeah, Seasons look more like Birthday and Theatre than Paradox or The White Door. She's rather travelling through cubes than being connected to "dream machines"

And even though the future can be stored in cubes, I don't think yet it's the case in Seasons. The devs said there are secrets left about 1981 implying that it's some important date zith real events

[carmine field]

A weird thing is that the Seasons cubes are connected as a single timeline, I wonder how

[azure bay]

A good quesion

I wonder whether the cubes we encounter aren't just gameplay

[vivid bridge]

what do you mean?

[faint flame]

Ok, then the second hypothesis could be that Laura comes back to life when she is connected to the white room machine, thanks to Rose's sacrifice; and maybe then Seasons could take place while he goes up the elevator, traveling between past and future memories, exactly as Dale does with Birthday and Theater while he goes up.

[carmine field]

Changing the past affects the future

When theoretically each era would be a separate cube

[vivid bridge]

I mean, not really

when Dale changes his birthday, that doesn't create a new cube

it just changes the old one

[carmine field]

Exactly, he only changes the cube he is in

[azure bay]

Again, I don't think Seasons have future memories. I'd rather bet on Seasons taking place as a whole long after Dale finished his journey and I think they take place in the lake forest

[carmine field]

But in Seasons, it's like Laura changed all the cubes

[vivid bridge]

the cubes in seasons aren't real cubes. They're a visualization of different moments in her life. In the real world, they're all inside one cube

it's like if in Dale's case, pre-murder and post-murder were different cubes within the main "real" cube

Of course, we've had moments where its that way in the real world too (caroline) but maybe that's just different ways of extracting cubes

[faint flame]

Yes, it's possible. We just have to leave the explanations on Seasons pending and wait.

[carmine field]

This is a possible explanation, but we don't know if this cube exists in Seasons

[vivid bridge]

like the more primitive fire way that Caroline invented splits them into smaller cubes while Mrs. Pigeon's electric way makes one main cube

[azure bay]

Why are you so sure about the absence of nesting cubes?

[vivid bridge]

We know that Laura has one black cube in the real world while Seasons has 4 small ones. But those 4 are all within one framing device (the main black cube)

like with dale, he has multiple cubes

but laura just has one with multiple scenes within

So whether or not the seasons cubes are real is semantics

the point is

that's why laura's cubes are connected

we still haven't really seen Dale's cubes getting extracted

[azure bay]

Thanks to your thoughts I've got a neat little speculation

Just like the elevator in Bday/Theatre, the cubes of Seasons could represent that single black cube in a way that the outer reality bleeds into Laura's perception

However I don't understand why she can't go backwards without a blue cube

[vivid bridge]

Well, Dave couldn't go back through his memory without a blue cube. Laura's story in seasons is just segmented because there are timeskips

but its still the same situation

since cubes are tied to the place the memory takes place, a change of scenery or a long enough timeskip warrants a new cube being created but due to Laura's story being connected, they're all combined

So like if Dale's story continued at like the orphanage, then it probably would have been similar with multiple cubes inside the main one

[azure bay]

I meant, it's as if she dives out the cube to dive back at different point in time. But this assumption doesn't explain why she can only go forward

[vivid bridge]

this screen is inside the main cube. It's not a gameplay mechanic (well the text and stuff is but the location itself isn't)

it's just the way the cube presents itself to her I guess

[azure bay]

I'd rather say that the screen represents the cube side of the lake

But it's not what I'm talking about

I'm talking about the cubes we see on the levels

Just like Dale was more or less both inside his Bday cube and outside in the end

So could be Laura in the end of every chapter but Winter

Imagine that

She holds her cube and concentrates on it

She dives into her memories and adopts the body and perception of her past-self

But as she's about to leave, her conciousness gradually returns into the body holding the cube

Thus she perceives both the cube in her hands and the room inside it

Like Dale sees the real elevator inside Theatre

[faint flame]

When would this be happening?

[azure bay]

As I said, I place Seasons around 1981

Laura lost her elixir gamble to Dale and 9 years later decided to change that

And, I'd guess, got help

[vivid bridge]

When would this happen

[azure bay]

What do you mean by "when"?

Globally in the timeline or when specifically in Seasons?

[vivid bridge]

specifically in seasons

[azure bay]

My guess was, each time she was about to leave a level

Except for Winter

When, I believe, blue cube should work like in Bday

[faint flame]

Ok, regarding the other doubt, do you agree that Laura comes back to life thanks to Rose's sacrifice when she is connected to the machine in the form of a corrupted soul and before getting into the elevator with Mr.Crow?

[azure bay]

No

But others do

At least in general

[azure bay]

I don't get what you are calling a sacrifice here

[vivid bridge]

I think somehow Rose fixes Laura's corruption (even though that's a blatant retcon since she's still corrupted in Cave)

and then Cave and Paradox happen

I believe the UB-Postgame takes place after UB

which is a pretty basic statement but somehow nowhere disagrees

[azure bay]

And I see a ton of problems with that

It's so simple only if we ignore Laura's wordings and Owl's expected awareness

I don't think he knew about Roses and their blossom

And thus he couldn't plan around that

[vivid bridge]

You should know by now that every character knows everything in this franchise

How would Rose know that Laura needs magic tree healing powers later

How would Dale know that he needs Bob's memory

Every character just knows whatever they need to know for the plot to happen

For all we know, Owl knows everything

[azure bay]

Then Albert should have stayed dead

[vivid bridge]

I wish he did

[azure bay]

I mean he's a threat to evade at all cost

A chaotic player that knows too much and can cause tons of harm

[vivid bridge]

Yeah but this series isn't written like that. The finale isn't gonna have Albert barge in and ruin everything

[azure bay]

I expect him to do that in the future

Since he's resurrecter 12 years after Dale's predicted ascension

[vivid bridge]

Well not really

It's kinda unclear

Since at the end, they end up in the lake

So we don't really know when they came out

Rose Tree seemingly went back in time

[azure bay]

Rose sure but I wouldn't be so definite about Albert

[vivid bridge]

We haven't seen Albert post-loop so we don't know

[azure bay]

We could have

In BKM

[vivid bridge]

mmmm

true

Which tbh doesn't make much sense since the black cube in the BKM station is the past room memory which shouldn't exist anymore

[azure bay]

Why?

[vivid bridge]

When does the BKM station take place again? Isn't it like early 2000s?

because thats when the ARG is?

[azure bay]

I'd say 2023, considering that Jimpo ordered his VHS in 2022 and wrote a review in 2023

[vivid bridge]

I guess so

so yeah

the black cube gets used in 1984 or whatever to do the whole tpw loop

so how can it be here in 2023

[azure bay]

I don't get why would the cube annihilate

[vivid bridge]

Well, that's the impression I got from the end of TPW

with the whole cubes inside cubes thing

and the loop breaking

I guess the black cube could survive and then just be found by bkm

[azure bay]

Well I didn't

It wasn't as much about cubes but about Rose's consiousness

Her mind was sucked into the loop

But otherwise these are simple cubes

[vivid bridge]

stupid tree

After this, I never want to see Rose again tbh

same with Albert tbh

[azure bay]

And I'm getting hyped after The Lab

I know the beginning, I know the end (at least for Rose) and I want to know what happened in between

And I want to see how Albert will affect the main cast

[vivid bridge]

The main cast's story will conclude like next game

[azure bay]

And I see an opportunity for a new conflict

[vivid bridge]

we'll see about that

I've had my fill of bringing back old characters

Can't wait for them to bring back Nicholas

[azure bay]

I doubt that will happen. Only if we get a prequel

But I do expect them doing something with Mr. Deer

No matter if he'll end up sticking around afterwards

[vivid bridge]

i'm just ready to bring this whole albert rose thing behind us

this has been going on for like 5 years

[azure bay]

What has been?

[vivid bridge]

They've teased TPW since like 2018

The leak thing happened in 2019

TPW has been like the thing for a good chunk of this franchise's life

i'm ready to move on

[azure bay]

I disagree.

For 1, it was a thing for it came through a lot of changes.

For 2, I wouldn't count for time it took for brewing. I get it, anticipation took a lot of energy but now the road is less bumpy and it can finally develop.

For 3, despite us already getting some payoff It really seems like something bigger than TWD or a tandem of Hotel-Paradise. One side of me even wants it to be just as big and cool as Dale's story

[vivid bridge]

I just haven't really enjoyed these two games that much

TPW is a fun multiplayer game but I didn't really like its story, especially the ending

UB is...

UB

You know my opinion on UB

[azure bay]

I do

But I see bigger

These 2 games are just pieces of a puzzle

And now we know there are more ro come

[vivid bridge]

I just want something new

Finish the Dale-Laura plot and then do something new

[azure bay]

TPW and its loop are new.

And Albert is new. Previously, he was but a puppet now he's becoming a puppeteer

[vivid bridge]

yeah but until he does something interesting and isn't just a plot device, I don't care

[azure bay]

So is it the immediate arc that makes Dale's story better in your eyes?

Hmm... Or is it that immediate?

For 2 games we've seen him getting envolved

For the next 2 he was riding to the hotel for reasons unclear

[vivid bridge]

I mean, we've known since Paradox was the goal

[azure bay]

If I remember correctly, you were here since the beginning. It took 3 years give or take to see Paradox. What did you feel back then?

[vivid bridge]

Oh, I mean, something about Dale becoming a animal person and figuring out the mystery i guess

[azure bay]

Is it before Paradox or right after?

Just to be sure we're on the same page

[vivid bridge]

This is what I thought pre-paradox

Tbh, back then I wasn't discussing this stuff with people

[azure bay]

I can see parallels between these 2 eras. Both are building something up. However you probably cared about The Mill/Bday/Theatre and probably were hopeful about what was to come but now in an arguably similar situation you don't care and lost hope

I'm trying to figure out if it's more subjective or objective

Is the new setup faulty or is it your perception that changed or both?

[vivid bridge]

I think there's multiple parts to it

First, I want to see the Dale story finished

we basically took a 6 year break from the main story

[azure bay]

That's ironic

I assumed that building up another arc before the main one is finished would keep the fans' interest in the long run

Unlike MCU with Endgame

[vivid bridge]

Yeah but the new plot isn't interesting. Basically all we've done with these games is bring back Albert, who hasn't done anything

He's a macguffin in these games

These games are nothing but setup

Think about how far Dale got in like 2 flash games. Compare that to Albert's 2 premium games + introduction in Roots

[azure bay]

Intro in Roots was pretty solid IMO

One of the most flashed out characters of the game

[vivid bridge]

Yes of course

we were all excited for Albert's return

but he does nothing in these two games

[azure bay]

TPW, I suppose, had to be a setup. Due to its format and things that didn't go according to plan

Half of it already paid of in UB with TreeRose saving Laura

Albert did an interesting thing. He kidnapped Rose

I guess, that's too little

Dale had a lot of setup in his turn

Theatre and Paradox seem to mostly consist of it

Maybe The Cave could be considered as such too

It recontextualizes the info from Roots

And I guess it wasn't too entertaining to watch Mr. Crow swimming

On the other hand, the golden cube was created and the elevator journey started...

Hotel seems like a setup

Case 23, The Mill and Bday have some interesting action

[vivid bridge]

It also just comes down to personal preference. I like the, like, pacific northwest twin peaks mystery vibe of the earlier dale games

while I don't really vibe with the tech-based modern games

[azure bay]

When they started?

[vivid bridge]

I think the switch happened in the white door?

To be fair, after white door there's only like two games

there was a lot of filler with the collection and samsara room

[azure bay]

Tbh I kinda miss fillers like The Lake, Arles and HB

[vivid bridge]

I miss shorter games as well

I remember way back then

pre-Hotel

I had a dream about a new cube escape game that was like inside a house on a little hill?

You could go to the basement

And it had that old twin peaks vibe

[azure bay]

Ok, gn, cya later

[vivid bridge]

Lol

see ya

[raw swift]

wait

i was thinking about something here

if TPW's minigame is infinite

does this mean that harvey canonically dies?

[azure bay]

Unlikely. He moves on after UB

[spiral ferry]

Guys, have someone else noticed that we can close the box, but it requires an another code to open it again? I guess it works the same way as the soul station's box does. Also, i tried to reverse and flip that blue piece of paper, no codes succeed tho.

[azure bay]

I think I can guess what it is

it wil probably be connected to the teaser they promised to send away

[spiral ferry]

I hope it's not a bug or something and it supposed to work as it does tho.

Then we just have to wait

Thank you

[wheat ore]

what teaser ???

[azure bay]

announced at the hotel station

[wheat ore]

mm ?? what hotel station ?

[azure bay]

did you get all the achievements in UB?

[wheat ore]

no

not yet

but now I really really want to lol

[azure bay]

you know what to do

[wheat ore]

[raw swift]

THE DAY OF THE LAKE

[spiral ferry]

@covert wyvern hey, could you give us an explanation of this?

[covert wyvern]

I will not ever explain anything in theories

They wouldn't be theories, otherwise.

[spiral ferry]

Oh, i see

I just wanted to make sure it isn't a bug

[raw swift]

I dont think its an ovesight, if it was, the code wouldn't change

Bruteforcing would be too much work tho

[stoic minnow]

And I think it doesn't work yet. Wait for new updates)

[carmine zealot]

like do we know of any 4 symbol combinations? i think the ones from the white door don't work as they had symbols the box doesn't

[stoic minnow]

@azure bay You talked about the interaction between schoolgirl Laura and tapes here?

[spiral ferry]

Maybe we'll know that from the next announcement

[carmine zealot]

yeah

[azure bay]

not really. I doubt it means anything now, after the update did nothing to it

[stoic minnow]

Unless it hints at future updates

[azure bay]

I find it unlikely

[barren cove]

Interesting that the new level is not treated as a part of the Underground, unlike BKM

[azure bay]

Why BKM is a part of it for you and The Lab isn't?

[barren cove]

I'm judging by the achievements. The Lab counts as a separate station, BKM does not

[raw swift]

well, it is a station

UB is based on time

so it's technically part of it

[strange raft]

So what's the deal with the lab

[vivid bridge]

It's a place

Its where The Future in TPW is located

Which might also be the BKM place

[barren cove]

BKM is also a station, the achievements do not say: "BKM - 1", despite there being two BKM achievements, if I remember correctly

[azure bay]

I don't think there is a system with these bonus achievements

[strange raft]

Does it just show the events of the from another perspective

Or does it canonize that Harvey was involved

Actually

Same thing

[vivid bridge]

which events specifically?

[strange raft]

Some of the events of TPW

[vivid bridge]

well, its complicated

some of the places you visit are real places while some aren't

I think all the main stations are made up. Like events similar to it happened but the versions inside the metro are just part of the train

We know this since Soul Street is completely made up and we know how the events of Sorrow Cross really happened

Stuff like Harvey at the lake, the hotel or the lab seem to be real, though

which... implies time travel which I hate?

doesn't even make sense, why would 1935 Mr. Owl be preparing for the day of the lake in like 40 years

the devs really screwed up with that metro map

[barren cove]

I still don't understand why this implies time travel

[raw swift]

I think here would be a better place to post this

[covert wyvern]

Dont think this needs reposting, here.

[raw swift]

Idk, general can be quite active sometimes

[covert wyvern]

regardless, this is a puzzle, not a theory.

[raw swift]

So it is infact what we need to do?

I posted as a theory because i dont know if its the right way to deal with it

[raw swift]

well

now that i got it

i'm really happy that the theories of the box were correct

such great marketing

Also sorry @covert wyvern

[covert wyvern]

no worries.

[normal dagger]

Guys, I have just realised that in Rusty lake roots, we place coins on James's eyes, just like they did in ancient Greece so that the soul could pay Charon for the ride across the Styx river!

[dry sparrow]

Same for tpw

[normal dagger]

Right, I forgot lol, I haven't played it in a long time

[slow ridge]

About RL Hotel, I wonder whether if the guests have dinner during the afternoon or night, because they always seem having dinner in broad daylight

[royal notch]

"No dinner at nighttime!"!

[sour brook]

there's something I've been wondering about. why is Dale's family ordering him around on his birthday??

[errant estuary]

uh idk maybe he liked feeling responsible at nine

[slow ridge]

Where is that mentioned? Do they have dinner in the morning then?

[sour brook]

Maybe that's how birthday parties were back in the days

[honest brook]

It says that when you try to go into the dining room after the night falls

[slow ridge]

Oic, thanks

[lost thorn]

Is there a reference to the phone number that we call for access to the lab

[dry sparrow]

not sure, but the trailer has hints probably

[vivid mountain]

this isn't important but the camera Laura uses in underground blossom is the Argus c3 (like 95% sure)

[wheat ore]

omggg it's a real camera ? I swear the devs put so much details it's borderline insane 😭

[vivid mountain]

i know right

[eager anvil]

cool but it's not 100% identical

maybe it's just a coincidence

[vivid mountain]

well this is rusty lake we are talking about

there aren't alot of coincidences

for example the year it was made is the same year ||dales parents died||

[azure bay]

@vivid mountain @wheat ore @eager anvil
Considering how they butchered WW1 gear, I could expect them taking just a random old camera they found in google images as a reference

[vivid mountain]

that could be true

like i said above the date of it being made is cool

[azure bay]

Yeah, I agree here

[eager anvil]

probably

[raw swift]

I mean, this is not #🛖｜the-cabin

[wheat ore]

LMAO

[sour brook]

Thanks a lot

This is why I shouldn't text and text

[wheat ore]

😭 ????

[sour brook]

Idk why you're crying but there there

[wheat ore]

?????????????????????? 😭

[thick acorn]

The blue cube has been able to do that for a while, to say nothing of the TPWs synchronicity where the future can influence the past/bidirectional causation. so idk why you're upset about UB which seems to be a much more metaphorical/magical recreation of Harvey's work to Shephard Rose to the lake where Dale and Laura are.

[vivid bridge]

the blue cubes have only been shown rewinding memories, which is not time travel. TPW's bidirectional influence also isn't time travel, since Past (and later Future) are inside cubes that are directly influenced through the cubical device

The problem with UB is that it is mostly metaphorical but it also interacts with the real world. That is the problem

[thick acorn]

It's never been clear whether the blue cube is changing a subjective memory or the reality that gave rise to the memory though

It doesn't rewind it which implies it then progresses identically like a VHS tape. It alters it

[vivid bridge]

yes it rewinds it. We literally see it in Birthday (and less obvious in Seasons)

you can change the past of the memory

but why would that change the real world

Dale dealing with his past is a mental thing. He doesn't literally save his parents

that would be a bit too easy

[thick acorn]

I'd have to think of what the evidence is for one or the other but on face value it is heavily ambiguous whether it is a subjective change or a material change. I think there's a more intuitive reason to your understanding of it but I'm not sure that's totally clear. Since it would be a.) You change your own memory to avoid being corrupted which means the process of corruption is immaterial, a product of your own subjective experience or the inverse, you change your past and corruption isn't just your own experience of your life. Actually saying it out loud u might be right because Bob is uncorrupted with what seems like a straightforward memory deletion in TWD

[vivid bridge]

yes I was about to say

corruption is definitely a mental thing

[thick acorn]

So in your mind, prior to this, all mystical or metaphorical experiences were in a cube? The line gets blurred a bit with magic, rather than metaphor, since plenty of magical things happen in Reality proper

I guess I see what you mean about the line being a little blurrier than in past

[vivid bridge]

Mystical stuff isn't exclusive to cubes. Metaphorical stuff usually is, though. Like of course characters can talk in metaphors in the real world but stuff like UB and Paradox, whose existence and purpose are more metaphorical, aren't anchored in reality

the thing is, Paradox is explained

it can do whatever metaphorical stuff it wants to do because it has a framing device that is anchored in reality (the white cube house simulation thing)

thus it can fit into the story while also being metaphorical

The metro isn't that. The metro just exists. The metro doesn't follow any rules but it does connect with the real world

it connects with that real world in multiple real world time periods, so???

[royal notch]

But why do you say that?

[vivid bridge]

what part exactly

[visual pivot]

I may just be a psychology nerd but it reminds me of the type of therapy where you recount your childhood traumatic memories and discuss how things would have been different if you could intervene as an adult

[vivid bridge]

yeah that checks out

Dale actually says "the lake is changing my memories" after Birthday

[royal notch]

Any one. Because UB can simply be telling Laura's story using simply an external view. And to not chose a casual character for this journey, the devs chose Harvey for his role in her life.

[vivid bridge]

and yet the game explicitly ties the events of the game to The Cave by showing the real event with Laura at the cube house and Mr. Owl in the diving suit

if the game just wants to tell the story in a train station, then do that. Don't do this weird half-half

plus the whole game concludes the story of TPW

so it clearly exists in the same canonicity as that game

the devs just wanted their cake and eat it, too

[royal notch]

If time doesn't exist in the Lake, then we can also have different scenarios from different timelines in there. On the other hand, just an achievement.

[vivid bridge]

yeah but even that was never shown. We've never seen someone enter the lake in 1972 and then exit the lake in like dinosaur times

the fact that it only happens with the already poorly written train makes me believe that the time travel aspect also wasn't fully thought through

[royal notch]

But why are you insisting about time travel?

[vivid bridge]

The epilogue, the hotel visit and the lab visit all seem to be real events that Harvey partook in, despite all taking place in different time periods

like imagine if there was a secret ending in paradox where Dale left the simulation and came out in 1893. You'd also say "hey, wait a second, the other ending is in 1972, that doesn't make any sense"

and if the whole thing is metaphorical, then why do we get these timeline accurate moments outside of the train? Like the whole epilogue clearly takes place during/slightly before The Cave due to Mr. Owl and the white cube house. So clearly that's an actual time period that's being visited

if the game wanted to be fully metaphorical, then why is Mr. Owl there in time-accurate clothing

just have him sit there as himself

why the diving suit

It's stuff like that which makes UB just so frustrating to talk about

it's paradox without any of the sauce

[royal notch]

If we really want to talk about it, the entire cube hunting doesn't make the slightest sense. It's just extra fun. So i'm not taking it that seriously, actually. I see this game like a tale, it just tells you the informations it wants to, allowing you (the player) to be part of it. The achievments can always be that, funny references (Jakob diver), extra lore (the lab) or intended callbacks (the ascension).

[vivid bridge]

yeah okay but at that point we're just completely picking and chosing what is canon and what isn't

so like whats even the point

[royal notch]

That's the neat part, we do not. Everything depicted in the underground is unreal, we have to reimagine what has been told to us so that it would make sense in the bigger picture. For example, Rose disappaerance has been told to us for it to be real, of course, while a random thief stealing a clock and consequentially driving Laura to her fall doesn't. Our job now is to rethink about these metaphors.

[dark turret]

The question would be, What is Harvey? Is he a person, a bird, or both?

There could be a person named Harvey who would later have a bird named after him

[dry sparrow]

At this stage to me, Harvey is Harvey

[sour brook]

He's just Harvey

[thick acorn]

I don't know if I share your disdain for the introduction of a largely metaphorical storyline (especially since the post-metro sections at the lake, BKM, and The Lab can clearly be read as literal if interspersed by the metaphorical use of the metro for transport.)

Thinking it over I frankly don't think time travel is relevant, tho I agree with many of your underlying points

Harvey is a strange character with a bizzare effect on the world and a strange inner world, it's different than the game telling us Laura is experiencing these things as a first hand account would be different. That combined with the ambiguity as to what the broader framing of UB actually is seems to leave me a lot less concerned about the lore discontinuity than you, though I think I share a propensity to lose the magic if there's a major break in the world building or logic of a universe.

[thick acorn]

Like this hits on a truth even if I agree post-game is to be taken largely literally. We know the real story of Laura leaving Bob, so what we are seeing is a memory of Harvey that he has in the form of a progressive metro. I don't think it's in a Harvey cube, though that might be a cheap way to score a point by proposing.

[dry sparrow]

Now the discussion got me thinking if Harvey starts existing before Mr Owl

[vivid bridge]

Harvey as a bird exists before Mr. Owl

Whether he's already an animal person is unclear

[sour brook]

He was in paradise before Jacob became Mr. Owl so...

[azure bay]

So... what?

[thick acorn]

We only see Harvey as an animal person in dream or metaphor but, if UB is to be believed, it's his self conception

And he clearly is able to act and manipulate the world in which a normal bird can't. Mentally and physically.

[vivid bridge]

okay but consider this

[azure bay]

the problem is, UB is not to be believed.

I agree on Harvey being smarter than a normal birb but how would we know for sure how Harvey sees himself and why this would matter in UB if in HB it doesn't?

[vivid bridge]

Harvey helps Rose two times. In the lab in UB and during TPW (he appears behind Old Rose in the lab). While we could consider the first instance to be metaphorical, the second one is a real event, which at least confirms he is an animal person in '84. And to me that indicates that the UB lab event also happened with anthro harvey

none of this makes sense since he should be an animal at this point

[azure bay]

For me the whole UB is metaphor cursed until we get a completely unrelated appeareance of asura Harvey

[vivid bridge]

we do, in TPW

[azure bay]

it's still a UB teaser

[vivid bridge]

yeah okay but its still there. It doesn't even give you an achievement or anything

[azure bay]

you mean the final scene?

[vivid bridge]

i'm talking about when in Future Ch.2 you look into the mirror and anthro harvey is there behind you

[azure bay]

it does give you an achievement and it's a lot like Young Laura on TV in Seasons

[vivid bridge]

does it?

I don't remember that

but maybe

[thick acorn]

I'll have to think both your points over but right now my knee jerk is that Harvey clearly appears as a bird in unaware apprehension but that he seems to be able to think and affect the world in anthro ways and when this is reflected upon in memory or metaphor he is apprehended anthropormorphically. The mirror starts treading towards where Ellesian is concerned about but strange images in a mirror have a metaphorical dimension well established in fiction that direct apprehension doesn't.

[vivid bridge]

tbh I don't even like the idea of Harvey acting and thinking like a person. He's supposed to be a stupid bird at this point

there's a whole game about him being in a tiny box and having a tiny bird brain that doesn't understand how boxes work

[thick acorn]

Hey some of those puzzles were tough...

[azure bay]

The thing is, the level of literality of stations may differ but the protagonist is a constant. The devs wouldn't switch the character and I doubt they would suddenly shrink him to birb size.

[azure bay]

he does reason and does understand how boxes work tho. He's just too tiny to open it

[thick acorn]

In earnest, why do you say that? It seems that Harvey has always had abilities beyond a regular bird and the origin of his ability is not established like it is for other characters

[vivid bridge]

Harvey being important in the first place seems like a retcon to me tbh. Like nothing in the first 6 games indicate that he's anything more. He shits on the floor. All the dialogue in HB is written to reflect a trapped animal (the reason why he can do the puzzles is because 1) he's a smart animal 2) it's a game)

[thick acorn]

The box is a weird example because solving the puzzle doesn't really get you out of the box. Eventually it gets opened, either while Harvey is dicking around in a box or trying to accomplish something.

[azure bay]

the thoughts seem articulated quite well

and why to articulate them in the 1st place?

[vivid bridge]

because it's a game and animals are shown with inner monologues all the time in media

[thick acorn]

A reevaluation of the story some time around 23 or Mill is undeniable and I think that's just the way the world is.

[azure bay]

not convincing. Van Gogh thinks less and there's nothing like that in Hotel

[vivid bridge]

all the early games had that kind of intro dialogue

What can I remember, I found abandoned cabin (wow typo), Where am I going

[azure bay]

if it was only intro dialogue in HB

[vivid bridge]

HB has two, yes

"What is this place? I need to get out of here" doesn't sound like something a grown ass adult man would say about a cardboard box

[azure bay]

if out of context, yes.

But pretty appropriate when dealing with a non-Euclidean space

[thick acorn]

It also doesn't sound like what a bird would think before methodically going about arranging his surroundings in accordance with a strange logic

At least to me

[vivid bridge]

well, that's the video game part of it

[thick acorn]

The diagesis convo is a mess but a good one to think thru since in many games it's clear the puzzle solving is an actual thing the characters are doing to accomplish their goals

[azure bay]

I'm not sure. We do agree that the thought was real and the cactus fruit was a hell good candidate for its cause

[vivid bridge]

I think the cactus fruit is
a) a way to have a playable mid-point in the story to timeskip to arriving at the lake
b) in-universe its probably just in harvey's mind
c) woaahh wouldn't it be weird if you opened a fruit and there was a spiral staircase?? woww man that would be so random xD

like I think that's the thought process behind it

sometimes things are just weird because its rusty lake and that's part of their identity

actually, the spiral staircase could represent harvey going crazy in the tiny box

it's like a visual metaphor

I'm looking at this from a developer's point of view. When the devs made this game, the intent was that you're a parrot in a tiny box he doesn't understand + some weird lake magic at the end

Of course, this could all be retconned all the way to kingdom come but like

yeah in that case whatever

[azure bay]

the problem is, RL is pretty random even if we are conservative.

Let's take Case 23 for example. One of the most real and literal games and yet I still have no idea how to explain the white cube in ch2. It being given by Laura makes no sense, yet the cube is canon

[vivid bridge]

True

I mean, it is a test made by mr owl, right?

so maybe he put it there

[azure bay]

maybe

and maybe there's a similar explanation for the fruit

the cube is just 1 example

we still have hands

we still have fireflies

[vivid bridge]

okay but nobody who plays Harvey's Box thinks "wait a second, i'm playing an animal but he's solving all these puzzles, has an inner dialog and can hold objects? Clearly this is a magic parrot with the consciousness of a man"

Like that stuff is just regular animal stuff in storytelling

[azure bay]

I would agree if there was only 1 thought in the beginning

in the middle it's just unnecessary

[vivid bridge]

I think they wanted to portray Harvey spiraling into madness, both metaphorically with the staircase and literally by just having him say "bro i'm going mad in here"

[azure bay]

I'm not sure about him going mad either

[vivid bridge]

The mid-game dialogue tells us that he's getting anxious in there

[azure bay]

So let me conclude. It may have been just a thinking animal trope but all things considered is also may have not

especially considering UB

[vivid bridge]

i think the game was clearly designed with a regular animal in mind

all the games pre-hotel were

Stuff like Harvey pooping in The Mill or being carried in a box in general

[azure bay]

we can't prove it until we ask directly

[azure bay]

If anything it could be Laura mistreating him for lack of knowledge. I mean, he is an animal and he is a pet. Yet behind all that there's still some intelligence above a normal bird.

He is smart enough to bring her a flower

He is smart enough to fight the darkness

[royal notch]

Speaking of him, i was thinking: what if the reason we still haven't got the moment when Harvey entered in Laura's life was because he has always been there? After all in UB he witnesses Laura's first months and seems to have some kind of informal relation with Rose, judging by the various dialogues. What if he became the parrot pet before Laura, probably after "the stars."?

[azure bay]

I think he was more or less free birb until Rose asked him to replace her as the major caretaker

[royal notch]

But i was talking realistically. That can't be taken literally, because Rose wouldn't talk to a parrot.

[azure bay]

She probably would if the parrot had a certain degree of sentience

and if anyone that would be Harvey

[royal notch]

If she knew that.

[azure bay]

she's already a character of extra knowledge

she helps William, she helps Albert, she helps Laura

[floral mauve]

I thin she would actually talk to Harvey even if she doesnt know Harvey is sentient

she is too lonely

[royal notch]

But how much would William talk? What would he gain for revealing his true identity (supposing he knew that.)?

And now that i think about it, why would Emma trust a random parrot for delivering her letter?

Random for them, i mean.

[azure bay]

I think the time is way too compressed in these games, Roots especially. I think they all had time to know Harvey better

[floral mauve]

not necessarily random they were together for a bit

like 5 years if I remember correctly

Emma and Harvey

[royal notch]

When is that said?

[floral mauve]

the search lasted some years

Harvey escaped from Hotel to the mansion

and Emma probably took care of Harvey till she dies

maybe reflect her parental instinct on Harvey but thats speculative

[royal notch]

I like that, it would explain his strict relations with the Vanderbooms. He could have been the family pet since then.

[azure bay]

that's the thing, he doesn't look like a pet

in UB he's free to come and leave

and Rose acknowledges that

[royal notch]

That game is a bucket of metaphors. We can't have a game where Harvey just witness Laura's life from the start till the end. We get to see only the fondamental parts of it like we're travelling between them, it's a narration technique. Besides, we all know for sure the parrot was her pet from spring 1964 to fall 1971 continuously.

We don't really need Rose to call Harvey for making her this favor, if he was already there from the start.

[azure bay]

I think we'll have to trust those lines that make sense. Rose knowing Harvey, speaking to him and asking to protect Laura makes sense and contradicts Harvey being a pet prior to that

[royal notch]

Bob sadly knows nothing of the mess he's in, yet he just speaks to him as well.

[azure bay]

that's the difference

Rose makes sense, Bob doesn't

it may mean that Rose's interaction is unreliable either

but in that case we have nothing better to judge by

another difference, Rose's lines move the plot

[royal notch]

Not really. Just repeating "Please, protect her." won't make a great difference. And everything happening in the lab can happening without Harvey's presence. She literally did nothing during the first station but wait.

We all hate this game, eh?

[azure bay]

you are wrong. She's in the middle of action. She's being kidnapped, she leaves the letter and she entrusts the timepiece

Without that line Harvey would have no reason to stick to Laura

[royal notch]

Actual affection exist.

Especially when you live with the same people for years.

And even without that, he could just be working for Mr Owl.

[floral mauve]

hmm yes affection for Laura, Harvey is me fr

[azure bay]

I don't get how that contradicts anything I said

[royal notch]

Just saying that he wouldn't need Rose permission.

[azure bay]

Owl has no idea about the blossom. UB is orchestrated by Rose

[azure bay]

he would because we've never seen him as their pet prior to Seasons

[royal notch]

That's exactly why i started this conversation.

[azure bay]

listen

we have evidence

it's the best we've got

we have no right to discard it until we get something better

besides, look at it from a newcomer perspective

you need to know the story with no prior knowledge

you are expected to take crucial things at face value

there's no need to overcomplicate Rose and Harvey

He's a bird that most of the time just hangs around no strings attached

he's deliberately asked to stay

[royal notch]

I was actually trying to make that request logical, but not that literal.

[azure bay]

what request?

ah

but you don't need to

in this specific case it's not unexpected

we have a precedent of Emma and Frank

we have Rose that already knows much more than simpletons

interacting with Harvey is not elixir science

[royal notch]

It came to my mind earlier, and i was trying to make it a thing. After all, Harvey seems missing from the incident to spring 1964.

[azure bay]

what incident?

[royal notch]

"The incident of '94."!

[azure bay]

you are forgetting Emma and Frank

[royal notch]

I'm not, i was purposefully deleting those.

[azure bay]

I don't get why

[royal notch]

Exactly because those are 2 (apparently) random events. Why would Emma trust him? Why would Harvey actually deliver it? We don't have enough context for his behavior, and enormous empty years for him. So i was suggesting he could have been the Vanderbooms' pet since a while. Both you and straynut have underlined the possibility for him to be a recurring presence at the mansion, making them aware of his smartness.

In UB that may METAPHORICALLY represent Harvey's presence since the very start and his relation with Rose, other than his life as Laura's pet.

I'm not trying to deny Rose's request, rather than make it fit.

[azure bay]

The "pet since 1994" theory makes even less sense. If you give a letter to a parrot, it's more logical for him to be free rather than caged. Birds are arguably good messengers but quite poor safekeepers

[royal notch]

In fact you said he would be a recurring presence, not a pet. And i'm inclined to agree to that. It's just that he can't be a "random" parrot for these tasks, there must be a certain degree of knowledge.

[azure bay]

here I agree

[royal notch]

What happened today is that i proposed a theory about him being a pet, and you adjusted it in making the parrot a known character for the Vanderbooms. The goal we had was the same, to make Harvey worth of trust for the other people that interacted with him. The rest are misunderstandings, i believe.

[azure bay]

k

[vivid bridge]

we all love underground blossom

🙂

[azure bay]

actually, I recently grew to love it

on a technical level it's a very good game

it's not ideal from the global storytelling perspective

far from that

but The Lab made it better

[vivid bridge]

i'm sick of this lab, too

it's been so long

and we're not even rid of it

we're getting it in Untold, too

[azure bay]

I think the tabletop will be unrelated

[vivid bridge]

probably but its still the same location

[azure bay]

I don't really get your resentment

[vivid bridge]

its just personal preference

It's not really the aesthetic i'm looking for in RL

[azure bay]

then the 2nd adventure is right for you

now I'm convinced it'll take place at the Vanderbooms'

wonder how the protagonists will make sense

[vivid bridge]

you and your friends wake up in the lab because Mr. Owl is back on his classic memory stealing scheme

that guy needs some hobbies

[azure bay]

yeah, but what about the house?

[vivid bridge]

you and your friends wake up in the house because Albert is back on his classic idk mass murderer scheme

I mean, you have a point

the adventures are probably gonna have all new scenarios with new characters (the players)

so that's cool I guess

if I see Harvey, Rose and/or Albert, i'll eat the cards, though

[azure bay]

I can't make myself expect anyone but nonames

[vivid bridge]

I'm imagining self insert stories

so it's you and your friends exploring rusty lake

[azure bay]

we'll have Crow for sure. He's been on like 3 different teasers

[vivid bridge]

i'm okay with Crow

I know, I come across as the series biggest hater in this chat (which I am but that's unrelated) but I like this series, I just didn't really vibe with this Rose-era

[thick acorn]

I think ultimately it's fair to be a purist and prefer the pre Mill/23 era games, and it's fair to not vibe with the series shaping up to be a general battle of will between Owl, Crow, and Albert's intentions with Laura and Dale as pocket aces or wild cards, but I'm more curious if the claim could actually be made that the general logic of the world was infringed on (assuming Cube Escape collection since ostensibly they made necessary adjustments when putting that together)

In matters of taste there can be no debate

[thick acorn]

Harvey has always mostly been a chill guy who knows what's going on, helps Owl, and helps Laura because Owl has shared some amount of information about HIS intention to help Laura. UB is clearly intended to push the character of Harvey a bit into place but I don't think it's inconsistent with his general actions or vibe

Harvey predates Roots events. He has a lot of flexibility built in

And it's a flexibility that has been much opined on. It's not so offensive to ne

[vivid bridge]

I never said I prefer the pre-Hotel games, it's just that the recent games (TPW and UB) didn't really catch me. Adding to that was the long wait to even get there, the last "real" game before it was The White Door in 2019 (it was technically early 2020 but it took the slot of the 2019 game) and even then, TWD is more like a spin-off. Like we've been in this weird spin-off era for longer than the previous era

I do like Samsara Room but there's, like, nothing to talk about there lol

[azure bay]

I really doubt Harvey knew about Owl's plans about Laura during UB. It really looks like he went back in time before he truly rejoined him

[royal notch]

But then what about that letter?

[azure bay]

that's the reason he rejoined. I was talking about the main story, not the aftermath

[royal notch]

Ah, okay.

[thick acorn]

That's fair, but there is a retcon point once they started working towards a broader story, reflected in changes made to the CE collection, that seemed to be a point of contention whereas I feel it has to be baked in to our assumptions.

[thick acorn]

So, why leave Mr. Owl in the first place to hang out with the Vanderbooms?

[azure bay]

Harvey legit died and was resurrected as a bird. I think Owl didn't need his services for the time being

[thick acorn]

Wait what? Maybe I missed something major what does that mean?

[azure bay]

the secret scene in Bday. There was a body and Owl T-posing over it before the light beam stroke them

[thick acorn]

It seems shallow to assume he's by Mr. Owl's side in Hotel and goes over to the Vanderbooms in Roots and to Rose to help with Laura because Mr. Owl gave him PTO

[azure bay]

except that's not that simple

[thick acorn]

That's just Harvey peacing out imo. Really no reason to think he died

Just more ambiguity as to his bird/anthro state

Since he's a bird in Paradise

[azure bay]

//_- there was a body

[thick acorn]

Where?? You mean the snow globe scene?

[azure bay]

here

Harvey was dead

Harvey was resurrected

then he was on his own

then he helped Emma

then he helped Rose and Laura

then he got a letter "Harvey I need more help"

[vivid bridge]

Doesn't The Search happen before Hotel?

[thick acorn]

Idk man that's hella ambiguous. I grant you it's a fair reading to draw but not enough to disprove other ideas on it's own. It's not like we have precedent of the resurrecting light beam

[azure bay]

it starts before the Hotel. But it just has to last until The Painting for many reasons

the main one: we literally see that light beam that resurrected Harvey right before he came to Emma'

[vivid bridge]

I get that the light in The Search is probably supposed to be the Birthday flashback event but why didn't they actually put it in the right year

like harvey's death is in 1894, while The Search is in 1891 I think?

[azure bay]

I'm telling ya, The Search has to last from 1891 to 1896

[vivid bridge]

look, I believe you but why wouldn't they just write 1894 there

[azure bay]

I think you don't send away a goodbye letter and chill for 2 years

but at the same time

you start your search right away

So I think they had to make a longer timespan anyway

and prolly decided to go all in

[vivid bridge]

Okay but that's just overcomplicating it all

Like, The Search doesn't have to be the start of the actual search

and she doesn't have to kill herself right after

there's no reason to not just place it in 1984

[azure bay]

sorry but she has. She wouldn't have written the goodbye letter otherwise

[vivid bridge]

It's a weird situation

She thinks he's dead but she also writes him a letter with a clue for the timepiece?

So she assumes he's alive?

[azure bay]

As I think about it, you are right

If I were to rationalize it, maybe she couldn't take it anymore but still had some hope left?

[royal notch]

She even got the time for a painting before ending it all...

[azure bay]

that's quite ok, I'd say

[vivid bridge]

Yeah, so she wrote the letter when she stopped searching but still had hope left. It then took 5 more years (maybe 2 if the date of the Search is just wrong) of depression for her to end her life

[azure bay]

no, that's not how it works. You stop searching, go into depression, finally decide to take your life and right before that you say goodbye

[royal notch]

I agree with Ellesian here. She could have tried to carry on, there was an entire family supporting her (except... him).

[azure bay]

that's not how it works

[vivid bridge]

yeah but we don't come to rusty lake for accurate portrayals of depression and suicide

[azure bay]

dude, that's just ridiculous

[thick acorn]

I mean I think it's meant to be read literally that she kills herself after completing the painting but because of the fact that it's contained in a dated mission rather than subjective claims about the grieving process which I agree is not a standard u can judge against

[azure bay]

that's not my point

she does make a painting, but she doesn't wait for 2-5 years after sending away her goodbye letter

[royal notch]

Why are you so sure?

[azure bay]

because goodbye means goodbye, it's so simple why do you have to overcomplicate this?

[royal notch]

What i know is that when you're struggling, your loved ones support you. We don't have evidence of Emma waiting those extra years just as we don't of her family not cheering her up.

[azure bay]

dude, for 1, that's exactly a type of unnecessary overcomplications I'm talking about, For 2, the family cheering up would delay the letter alongside the suicide, not separate it

[royal notch]

Opinions are opinions.

[azure bay]

that's not an opinion, that's the common sense

Occam's razor for Christ's sake

goodbye is goodbye and you don't need if's and but's

[royal notch]

Is it just my impression or are you kinda heating up?

[azure bay]

just a bit and not for long

[royal notch]

Sorry if it's because of me.

[azure bay]

relax

[thick acorn]

Absolutely nonsense to try and make a clear and involiable rule that a suicide note has to be written x amount of time before the suicide.

People write such notes and leave them out or in a drawer for years all the time

[azure bay]

that's not a rule, that's storytelling

[thick acorn]

It can be argued and assumed to develop a broader theory but it can't be relied on as a fact in the text

[thick acorn]

?

[azure bay]

there's nothing to theorize on, really. The story won't get any better if Emma becomes indecisive or the devs set up anticipation and don't fulfill it

and again

Occam's razor

the most simple explanation is the most likely to be true

and going after saying goodbye is the simplest here

doubts, possible support, etc. these are all just unnecessary assumptions that serve no purpose

all the speculations, all the possible excuses

Emma's death isn't such a deal breaker to justify them

there are many other more important and more controversial topics

[low mulch]

do we know why dale has claustrophobia and ichthyophobia? it doesn't seem connected to his trauma at all. and I get sometimes people have phobias for no reason but it feels like an odd detail to just randomly be there

[royal notch]

I never believed Paradox's evaluation. I always saw that as a way to reflect in the reality the given reason behind Dale's disappaerance. Hence the presence of random phobias.

[azure bay]

The thing is, the evaluation was done within Paradox and for Paradox. We witnessed the tests taken, the profile photo was taken in the room

[royal notch]

True. And i don't see how this is a contrast.

[azure bay]

meaning it's not for public

not to explain away Dale's disappearance

and that the diagnosis is legit

[royal notch]

The one we see, of course, it's just in his head. But this could very well a reflection like other things, of what's happening "out". A more realistic one can easily be made in the reality (perhaps not signed by Dr Crow! ).

[azure bay]

Rather vise versa. Crow performed the test inside Dale's head to create a real document. But for now there's no evidence for that

[thick acorn]

I think the claustrophobia could be a commentary on his immediate mental state, since he's trying to escape the paradox room. It could also have broader implications about his desire to escape closed quarter circumstances as the cubes often are. The fish is confusing, but there's a lot of evidence that the fish represents a lower register of the cycle of rebirth. Mr. Owl's future shows him as a fish, even as he's attained a sort of godhood it's not a Being that exists outside that cycle.

[azure bay]

I don't think it's immediate. I'd rather assume that the whole experience is rather uncomfortable for Dale

[thick acorn]

It really might not be, since this isn't the first time that Dale's been stuck between 6 walls. And his whole case has been an experience of being shoved into progressively tighter spaces both physical and mental

But I think it could be immediate too, and that would be fine and legible

[azure bay]

that's not how phobias work

[thick acorn]

Sure it is, he could go on from that moment with a fear of tight spaces because the pathology emerged in the experience of paradox

[azure bay]

phobias are usually caused by some traumatic event in the past

if you mean that the fear is reoccurring, then I have no problem

[thick acorn]

The cubes, especially in Dale's case, literally are trauma. Which I agree points to them being a likely source of the phobia but he could have also developed a phobia from the cube experiences. You can develop new issues from reexperiencing previously blocked out trauma. I think those two are the most likely. But the experience of paradox could also be traumatic enough in itself to cause the development of a phobia.

It could also, frankly, be Crow mocking Dale

[azure bay]

I really doubt both

the thing is, Mr. Crow seriously evaluates Dale's mental state

they have work to do

[thick acorn]

Yes, I agree it's likely an actual diagnosis

[azure bay]

they need to sculpt the next ruler of the lake out of him

[thick acorn]

Doubt both of what?

[azure bay]

the mockery and claustrophobia being caused by Paradox

[thick acorn]

Crows motives are a little unclear but yes probably he is faithfully doing Owl's bidding here

[thick acorn]

You doubt the claustrophobia? Isn't that what we're discussing?

[azure bay]

sry, my mind is all over the place

the mockery and claustrophobia being caused by Paradox

that's not the message of ch2

it's about evaluating Dale's present state, finding the root of his trauma in the past and doing some work to become something bigger in the future

if we were to speculate, Paradox shouldn't interfere

if it would, it would have been the bird crew shooting themselves in the leg

[thick acorn]

Oh, yea.... I think it's less likely but I don't think there's much value to completely ruling out the claustrophobia being a commentary on his immediate state. Especially since he's been in the paradox for a very long time

[azure bay]

except he doesn't recall much

[thick acorn]

That's true, but phobias are rarely caused by a conscious evaluation of your memories.

Is it clear whether he's totally mind wiped between resets?

I honestly don't know.

[azure bay]

he's not mind wiped, there is some past knowledge and feelings of familiarity

"I'm stuck here again"

"I need to find the exit, I know I did it before"

but, on the other hand, he doesn't recall "looking for his present mind before"

[thick acorn]

Both fairly claustrophobic statements. I agree it's probably a preexisting condition I just don't know if I agree with writing off valid potentialities. Sometimes there is a gray space where multiple things are possible and you can't make definitive claims

[thick acorn]

Yea it's clear higher order memories are donezo between wipes

Having left before is an interesting one

Escape is not as common a theme in Dale's past cubes or adventures as death and rebirth, which I think the fish symbolizes

[azure bay]

to be fair, there were not many before Paradox

Case 23 and that's it

the rest came after

[thick acorn]

True, which I think is what makes it hard to pin this one. Paradox itself is Dale coming into conflict with the past and present to prepare for the future, but also his visceral experience of cycling, of closed loop. His exit is ultimately just him moving around a larger closed loop.

[thick acorn]

BIirthday and Theater too, no?

He rides the elevator after paradox ig

[azure bay]

exactly

[thick acorn]

Yea, that's what I remembered.

Anyways it's sort of a moot point because I think it makes the most sense as a unconscious fear of death, rebirth, and cycling/closed (existential/mental) spaces that he has to address to at least move though the progression towards whatever it is Owl has in mind as ruler of the lake

Mostly just talking to say, I think it's also valuable as a commentary on his immediate circumstances and I don't see an outright need to collapse two potentialities into one definitive truth especially in RL

[azure bay]

I mean they likely are describing his current state but the message was that his parents' murder was the point after which everything went downhill

[thick acorn]

Yea, or rather the foundational trauma that prevents him from moving uphill

He's successful enough beforehand it's not like they found him drunk in a ditch. But they do need him to become far more than he was.

I get your point

His hangup on Laura is a new trauma probably experienced as a repetition of losing his parents, but in a visceral way that allows him to tangle with that trauma. I think something can both be the result of something immediate and of something past. The past is not even past. I don't think you can collapse it to a single cause is maybe the point taking shape in my head.

Anyways I think youre right in a meaningful way and appreciate the convo, I'm not sure my idea is clear enough to push further

[royal notch]

Ahem... <@&844233128523464805>!

[royal notch]

Do you guys ever had one of those random shower thoughts? Well, today i just realized, after all these years...

We should be at 2° floor.

[errant estuary]

yeah

either it’s an apparition, or there is a ridge at the facade of the building, or both

[covert wyvern]

Tall ladder

[royal notch]

I think it could be a development error instead, since also the view it's the same one visible from the lobby.

While with Mr Deer, literally one floor down, we can't see the mountains.

[errant estuary]

possibly

[errant estuary]

even so, i dont think he’d reach the first floor either, because it is a bit elevated (like most fancy waterside houses back then)

[barren cove]

Or a really tall guy

[azure bay]

Dudes, it's the series about flying fish and finding living disimbodied hands in unexpected places. It doesn't need to make sense on that level

[royal notch]

My non-lore-related assumption now is that room 1 and 4 were meant to be swapped, but they misplaced them.

[errant estuary]

yeah, but it’s still funny

[vivid bridge]

so whats up with the window rabbit

apparently the devs said that all mr rabbits in the series are the same guy so???

[errant estuary]

yeah no idea

do NOT face harvey alone while astral projecting /j

[wheat ore]

<@&358613639554400258>

[covert wyvern]

odd

.ban @buoyant condor scam

[sweet zephyr]

.danieldrack was banned.

[covert wyvern]

thanks for the ping

[wheat ore]

:D

[dry sparrow]

question on roots,
Who is James’ father? Is it Mr Crow?

Cos if William is his uncle, and William and Aldous are brothers…?

[stoic minnow]

Perhaps there is a third sibling.

[remote remnant]

its John RustLake

[vivid bridge]

you think when William died and Aldous had to move to the mill, he was really pissed?

[floral mauve]

what why

[vivid bridge]

like he was couch surfing at his bro's place

and then he dies and gives the house to his nephew

so he has to move to a shitty mill

meanwhile Owl is living in a fancy hotel

[floral mauve]

I thought he got a hotel to stay for a bit, and he isnt in a mill all the time

[vivid bridge]

well, the mill has a picture of him and the old lady, plus its where all the letters to him are addressed to

I assume this is his place

[floral mauve]

plus he got moved to that mill is probably within 50-60 years of frame

before case 23

and Roots is way longer

[vivid bridge]

so he was couch surfing at the hotel, too? What a bum

[floral mauve]

it is even likely that the old lady owns the mill and Crow just had to somehow earn her trust in an unhealthy relationship

or crow is into that

cant tell

[vivid bridge]

I always wondered if she can also turn into an animal

Ms. Sheep

probably not, though

[floral mauve]

probably not

though it is arguable whether she is a member of the owl corp

ticker lady does look like her

[floral mauve]

still this won explain crow's weird face cover except the fetishy side

[errant estuary]

omg thatd be really cool

[thick acorn]

Confirmed in the game description too if those are considered solid

[vivid bridge]

yeah i'd say so

[thick acorn]

I feel like he's on his grind yk

[floral mauve]

grind of wha

[thick acorn]

William needs the house to manifest the next generation of bodies and souls and Owl needs him to do mill stuff and Crow is like aight lets go Mildred I gotta be on my immortal trickster god grindset

Crow stays scheming

No days off no off days

Check the lore, man is always on his side hustle drop-ship empire

Bartender, Hotel Concierge, Water Taximan, Mill Operator, Experimental Elixer Test Subject, Psychoanalyst

[floral mauve]

yes

[dry sparrow]

A crow of many trades

[thick acorn]

Has it ever been addressed if Mr. Owl knew Laura had William's soul or whether he discovered something was up after Mill?

Crow obv knows and maybe that's a conflict of interest between the two who I think ultimately have a lot more in tension than typically spoken about

[vivid bridge]

He probably knows

[thick acorn]

So is his non descript letter in Mill 4D chess? Does Crow know he knows?

[vivid bridge]

I doubt there will be any tension between them, i've been with this franchise long enough to know that they just don't write their stories like that

[vivid bridge]

Retcon

Don't think too hard about it

[thick acorn]

Hmm what do you mean?

They don't write their stories like what

[vivid bridge]

Characters don't really have conflicts with each other like that in rusty lake. Crow isn't gonna betray Owl or anything

[thick acorn]

For the sake of discussion, Albert is clearly motivated by a set of ambitions that are contrary to other characters and in conflict with their goals. So there is at least some tension there

Unless once he's alive again he's happy to just go about his business and Owl isn't that unnerved by his impact on Harvey, Laura

[thick acorn]

Also like I'm curious when you place that retcon occuring. The premium games?

[vivid bridge]

Imma go to sleep so i'll elaborate further tomorrow but i'd say the laura retcon happened in roots

Not only is that the game that makes Laura important, it also introduces the elixir and its duality

[thick acorn]

Yea I'll be curious to hear, since I feel you can read a lot about the later games from mill

And Dale and Laura are heavily featured

[vivid bridge]

about the character conflicts. Characters in rusty lake don't really act like real people. They usually don't have reactions to events or are surprised by things happening. So like your example, Mr. Crow and Mr. Owl. Would it be interesting if Mr. Crow had his own goal or had some antagonistic tension with Owl? Sure. But no game so far has had anything like that. Things just kinda happen and the characters are okay with it. We're not gonna get Mr. Crow going "Haha, now I will take over the lake instead! I'm the twist villain"

[raw swift]

A game doesn't need these types of things

Rusty lake's story is told in a really unique way

[vivid bridge]

it depends

[raw swift]

Even if they don't act like real people, you can see how their Life went and insert these emotions one way or another

Rusty lake is meant to be an emotionless game

[vivid bridge]

Personally, i'm not a fan of it but it is what it is