I almost thought that opengl is not dead
#Fwog and co.
shell inlet
golden schooner
hehe
long robin
btw Teardown article is now 95% complete
https://juandiegomontoya.github.io/teardown_breakdown.html
fixed the gamma in the early pics and videos, changed the intro (no more cringeworthy slowpoke meme), and added a bunch of missing content, plus some probably minor changes
still need to finish the bloom section and add a table of contents
inshallah y'all will skim it and hopefully the new sections will catch your eye
heavy cipher
this image is giving me a taaneurysm
long robin
lel
I just pasted the whole thing into Word and immediately found something I forgor to finish 
long robin
this image is giving me a taaneurysm
yeah the smoke makes some pretty nasty TAA artifacts
quite epic how they are captured in photo mode when literally nothing is moving
shell inlet
wait what
long robin
well except for the fact that it needs motion vectors for motion blur 
shell inlet
but it has real motion blur why does it need motion vectors
long robin
only some things have real motion I guess
only vehicles seem to do the jittering thing from what I've seen
possibly some other things have it, but I haven't checked
long robin
clearly this guy needs to use the transparency and composition mask of FSR 2 for smoke
shell inlet
may just use fsr2
heavy cipher
tbh i dislike the mixed smooth-blocky aesthetic, but i think this is due to lack of mc indoctrination on my end
shell inlet
wait does it use it? I might have misread
shell inlet
ok then why not use fsr2
long robin
it was released before fsr2 existed for one, and secondly there is no official opengl backend for fsr2 (though I have thought about making one myself)
shell inlet
I would, I'd hate to implement temporal aa and upscaler myself
oh ok makes sense
the opengl thing
long robin
if I make the fsr2 backend, I will try to convince dennis to use it
heavy cipher
the opengl thing
just RIIV bro
shell inlet
what's a riiv
heavy cipher
its a joke on RIIR (rewrite it in rust)
long robin
the V stands for vuk u
heavy cipher
the V stands for vuk u
perhamps
shell inlet
I'm going to use vuk btw
vulkan bad imo
or maybe C bad
and vulkan by extension because it couldn't
heavy cipher
I'm going to use vuk btw
join the discord when you do
shell inlet
what do you mean I'm already using discord
long robin
the vuk discor
golden schooner
link is in #related-servers
shell inlet
yeah idk what for though
golden schooner
martty's vuk server
heavy cipher
for the excellent discussion of the GP zeitgeist
long robin
yeah idk what for though
tech support from his underpaid indian contractors
shell inlet
maybe asking questions there but if it's so bad I couldn't figure it out on my own then I'll be using raw vulkan instead
it has examples which should be enough to get started
imagine asking questions online instead of reading docs and papers
oh wait that's the premise of this whole server
long robin
why read docs when you can have someone else read them for you
shell inlet
society if people could read docs and papers: <insert image of advanced civilization>
long robin
heavy cipher
society if we would have better form of meme generics than templates
long robin
vuk fanclub meetup
heavy cipher
lmao
shell inlet
this sounds like something a rust user would say
long robin
I remembered I could do that
heavy cipher
sorry jaker
shell inlet
so yeah anyways vuk good I imagine
shell inlet
I have never used it but I believe that as long as I don't have to manually put barriers it's already a step towards modern age from stone age
long robin
OpenGL users be living in 2023
shell inlet
yeah someone had to invent vulkan and make us suffer
like when newton invented gravity
someone had to counterinvent vuk
long robin
Fwog is the antivuk
long robin
All I'm missing is explicit sync
shell inlet
or like at least finer-grained
long robin
is it really though
It's kinda lower level in the sense that it doesn't abstract the API as much
shell inlet
if only graphics APIs were designed around principles of surface easy to use API with fine-grained custom stuff added if something really obscure is needed like manual sync
long robin
but practically speaking, no
long robin
if only graphics APIs were designed around principles of surface easy to use API...
I think that's the idea behind vuk lol
And nvrhi
heavy cipher
yeah, unfortunate that openGL doesn't have the hatch to get access to the fiddly bits
but it kinda kills the model
long robin
Some NV extensions are kinda like a shitty rusty hatch that doesn't open all the way
shell inlet
opengl fundamentally is stinky with its lack of structure like what vulkan does with structs and individual enums
and multithreading pain
heavy cipher
dennis flashbacks
long robin
Fwog hasn't solved the multithreading problem, and I dunno if I want to
Basically push calls to a buffer and then submit all at once on the main thread
Delayed error reporting 😢
heavy cipher
its a bit ironic that while the MT problem is solved in vulkan, you also don't really need it
except maybe for submitting on a different thread, but thats very coarse
okay, maybe for like uploading shit it still makes sense
shell inlet
I've heard that even if you have multiple queues gpu may still not be able to process them at the same time after submission
heavy cipher
I've heard that even if you have multiple queues gpu may still not be able to pr...
nvidia with their 16 gfx queues of meme material
long robin
16 queues of Allah
heavy cipher
attracting gamers with large numbers
heavy cipher
but presumably they are able to understand 16 > 1, which is what matters for marketing
i am joking btw, not sure why they did it this way
in theory the spec says that implementations should not be locking willy-nilly
but that is what you'd call "guidelines"
long robin
in theory the spec says that implementations should not be locking willy-nilly
fun fact: you cannot lock your willy with Fwog
heavy cipher
instructions were clear, willy is free 
long robin
I wonder if there's a clever way to expose glTextureBarrier, or if I should just make a simple wrapper (with possibly better naming)
golden schooner
hehe
the answer to the question is the question itself, since you answered it already 🙂
golden schooner
took me a minute to find the fwog thread again : )
i had this open as well https://github.com/JuanDiegoMontoya/Fwog/issues/41
made me smile a little, and reminded me of previous type-safety-discussions
long robin
Fwog and co.
oak garden
long robin
i had this open as well https://github.com/JuanDiegoMontoya/Fwog/issues/41
I keep looking at this issue but I'm still not sure what the ideal solution is
@heavy cipher does vuk do anything to improve type-safety for images?
heavy cipher
no
long robin
I imagine it has crossed your mind too though
heavy cipher
yes
Tear wanted typed buffers for some time
but baking the format at compile time, not sure how useful that is
your code cares very little if you use RGBA or BGRA
but if you bake that into the type, you have to carry it everywhere
long robin
yeah format baking sounds eh, but baking the "class" of the texture (color, depth, stencil) sounds useful
long robin
another one is baking the number of components, but that also carries some of the suckiness from the first idea
heavy cipher
i don't mind you going onto the minefield first
oak garden
How is fwog doing lately
heavy cipher
or do you want the api to work on it?
long robin
is it just variable type safety
basically this
and the API will use these types, e.g., for render pass info
long robin
How is fwog doing lately
it's going
oak garden
long robin
mostly just polishing the API at this point and fixing bugs
oak garden
Yeah makes sense
long robin
nothing major left to do
oak garden
Except write docs and lure in users 🙃
oak garden
doxygen is nice
long robin
The last time I had to generate docs was in college, and we used doxygen
oak garden
Still works like a charm tbh
golden schooner
its useful wen constructing an efbo i guess
when you want to add a color texture as GL_DEPTH_SHRIMPLE
where the type safety officer should interject
or in glBindXXXUnit situations mayhaps (at least in debug)
long robin
Still works like a charm tbh
I used it only to make a pdf for my assignments. I can't even remember how to do that anymore
long robin
when you want to add a color texture as GL_DEPTH_SHRIMPLE
I think I'd have to make separate enums for each class of texture
golden schooner
to be part of create_texture_info then?
long robin
Yeah
golden schooner
makes sense
long robin
But then I'd still want the generic "texture" interface in case something doesn't care
Which means I'd need something more to make these types work
Like a variant
golden schooner
what would a case like that be, where something doesnt matter
long robin
Hmm gimme sum types
golden schooner
ImGui::Image() doesnt count
long robin
what would a case like that be, where something doesnt matter
Like if you want to display an image for debugging lol
But yeah can't think of much else
long robin
Still, it's a useful feature for that
golden schooner
there are no variants or situations where it doesnt matter what type of exture it is
if the fbo is somehow linked to a fragment shader output, that would be neat
as part of debug-validation-isms
slithglyery different topic tho
golden schooner
dont give him ideas
heavy cipher
The last time I had to generate docs was in college, and we used doxygen
go stealy mcwheely on my setup
long robin
`TypelessTexture`?
I'd just make a texture class and inherit from it for the specialized ones
oak garden
Right yeah
long robin
I'd have to make multiple create info structs, one for each "specialization"
golden schooner
if you use inheritance, then you can also just use a factory, and just make it multiple factory methods, rather than extending the createinfo
long robin
Then the specialized structs would be translated to the generic one
I wouldn't extend the create info exactly
It would be separate create infos in order to enforce type safety
depth stencil create info, color create info..
golden schooner
hmm
long robin
I'm still not convinced that this will be super useful
golden schooner
validation layer is probalby a good thing in general
oak garden
opengl-validation-layer 🥲
golden schooner
at some point we should pick that one up again, was a good start 🙂
long robin
it's a big pita though
golden schooner
ye
oak garden
Yeah kinda :p
long robin
another issue I see happening with my inheritance approach is the potential need to convert from generic textures (the base class) to its derived classes. I guess that could be a move constructor with a runtime check
oak garden
Could be some sort of .cast() on the generic one
long robin
not a bad idea
I wonder how that would work without a dynamic cast though
Er, ignore that
golden schooner
the whole engine is not really made with oopisms in mind why start now 🙂
long robin
It would basically be a static cast, except textures can't be copied, and reinterpret cast would be fat UB
golden schooner
oopsi-isms more likely lol
oak garden
It would basically be a static cast, except textures can't be copied, and reinte...
Yeah, so you move the handle into the return value
cast() would consume the generic one into a typed one
golden schooner
nah just transport the type via the create struct, bindxxxunit/fbo creation have access to it then
hmm
or use the format already? which you specify anyway when creating a txture?
long robin
cast() would consume the generic one into a typed one
That's basically an explicit move constructor then
Just more documented in the API I guess
oak garden
Yeah
long robin
Feels kinda icky that a non move constructor function would invalidate the object though
oak garden
Yeah it's not a common pattern in C++ I suppose
heavy cipher
Feels kinda icky that a non move constructor function would invalidate the objec...
&&
long robin
uh std::move(myTexture).cast()
long robin
this smells like a comism
heavy cipher
to be on the same page i have no idea what is being discussed but it doesn't seem good
long robin
very icky, no good, etc.
final cove
.cast() seems like a massive antipattern
you know you can override the cast operator
operator DestType() {
...
}```
rugged notch
You could use a &&
DestType cast() && {}
But ye should probably be the cast operator
Can you specify rvalueness on a cast operator :0
daring surge
```
DestType cast() && {}
```
i did not realize this was a function declaration
i was reading it as if (func() && {})
disturbed
rugged notch
Yee
long robin
man, math has me fucc'd up yo
- "a 2-sphere is an ordinary 2-dimensional sphere in 3-dimensional Euclidean space, and is the boundary of an ordinary ball (3-ball)." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-sphere
- "A sphere (from Ancient Greek σφαῖρα (sphaîra) 'globe, ball')[1] is a geometrical object that is a three-dimensional analogue to a two-dimensional circle." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphere
not to be conchfused with n-balls
- "A 2-ball, a disk, is the interior of a circle (1-sphere)."
- "A 3-ball, an ordinary ball, is the interior of a sphere (2-sphere)."
the real ball torture was in trying to figure out how to simply generate a random direction vector in a cone
oak garden
shell inlet
the real ball torture was in trying to figure out how to simply generate a rando...
by looking in GI compendium
long robin
mfw my old renderer that uses c++20 modules no longer compiles (I get an epic ICE)
long robin
by looking in GI compendium
this one, right?
shell inlet
no the one above it
long robin
that's actually the top result for me
oak garden
hey thats my university
ive had classes from that professor, hes a good dude
wtf i didnt know this
i gotta ask him next time i see him
long robin
the gastrointestinal compendium is quite based
oak garden
oh
long robin
hmm is it possible to introspect the workgroup size of a compute shader
I thought it would be, but I don't see it on the famously accurate ref pages
https://www.khronos.org/opengl/wiki/Program_Introspection
heavy cipher
void GetProgramiv( uint program, enum pname,
int *params );
- If pname is COMPUTE_WORK_GROUP_SIZE, an array of three integers containing the local work group size of the compute program (see chapter 19), as specified
by its input layout qualifier(s), is returned
long robin
ah I was looking at GetShaderiv 🦐
heavy cipher
ref pages
links the wiki
:screm:
heavy cipher
eh wiki is much better
actually provides value over the spec
whereas the ref pages is just the spec that someone copied while peeking during the exam
long robin
fair 'nu'f'
heavy cipher
'
long robin
sometimes the wiki has questionable info, but as a learning resource it do be pretty good
heavy cipher
ye, sometimes it do be like that
long robin
what's going on in the second-to-last line here? it's like it's rotating the basis of the normal vector or something, but I don't have an intuition (all of it was lost after my final linear algebra exam) (code from learnopengl)
vec3 ImportanceSampleGGX(vec2 Xi, vec3 N, float roughness)
{
float a = roughness*roughness;
float phi = 2.0 * PI * Xi.x;
float cosTheta = sqrt((1.0 - Xi.y) / (1.0 + (a*a - 1.0) * Xi.y));
float sinTheta = sqrt(1.0 - cosTheta*cosTheta);
// from spherical coordinates to cartesian coordinates
vec3 H;
H.x = cos(phi) * sinTheta;
H.y = sin(phi) * sinTheta;
H.z = cosTheta;
// from tangent-space vector to world-space sample vector
vec3 up = abs(N.z) < 0.999 ? vec3(0.0, 0.0, 1.0) : vec3(1.0, 0.0, 0.0);
vec3 tangent = normalize(cross(up, N));
vec3 bitangent = cross(N, tangent);
vec3 sampleVec = tangent * H.x + bitangent * H.y + N * H.z;
return normalize(sampleVec);
}
just coordinate space conversion?
long robin
I'm only used to seeing it expressed as a matrix-vector mul so I feel 3head looking at this
oak garden
isnt this just TBN * H
long robin
hold on I'm writing this one out
heavy cipher
3-head, or ordinary head
long robin
isnt this just `TBN * H`
according to my math, they are not the same
let me make something presentable
wait nvm I'm a moron
long robin
is this literally just a more obfuscated matrix-vec mul
shell inlet
yea
oak garden
yeah, if im not mistaken this is just mat3(T, B, N) * H
long robin
I wrote it out and they are the same in terms of final result
I assume they are the same number of ops (I'll let someone else confirm xd)
oak garden
definitely after optimization
long robin
that conchfusing piece of code has been bugging me for a long time
oak garden
learnopengl shader code be weird sometimes
long robin
but now I'm even more annoyed that it's something shrimple expressed in a different way
long robin
found some pretty big brain code that I wrote in an SSR shader a while back
vec3 worldPosition = WorldPosFromDepth(texture(s_depthTex, projected.xy).x, u_viewportSize, u_invViewProjMat);
float viewDepth = (u_viewMat * vec4(worldPosition, 1.0)).z;
if you paid for all those gpu cores, you better use em
shell inlet
texture(s_depthTex, projected.xy).x?
shell inlet
no I mean it's what you can do to get view depth
asking if that's the funny part
that you get view depth from reconstructed world pos using view depth
but also wait isn't it lacking perspective division
that's clip space z
heavy cipher
the joke is bouncing between spaces like a football on methamphetamines
long robin
that you get view depth from reconstructed world pos using view depth
the texture is window space depth
shell inlet
window space depth? whassat
long robin
hyperbolic depf
heavy cipher
should be textureLod since it's in a divergent loop
if you don't have multiple mippos, then it doesn't matter
long robin
I'm not taking any chances
shell inlet
hyperbolic depth what's that
long robin
the value that's stored in the depth buffer
heavy cipher
is the thing from dragon ball Z
shell inlet
ndc space z then?
long robin
opengl has different window space and ndc space depth by default which is cancer
shell inlet
v/v.w: clip->ndc
shell inlet
first time I'm seeing window space term
[0; 1] is like uv space
I'd assume window space meaning viewport space or something
where it's in pixels
heavy cipher
opengl is chadonkulous api because ndc depth is configurable
long robin
I love copying my old GL code and it not working in my current project because the ndc depth range is different
heavy cipher
i don't think it is configurable either in d3d or vk
long robin
vk has an extension
long robin
VK_EXT_depth_clip_control lets you use the GL convention
long robin
We're putting this in DD, right?
viral haven
Jaker, is this way of deferring initialization considered 'good practice' or is this a temporary workaround?cpp // Since pipelines have complicated construction, we use a std::optional here to // delay its initialization so it can be constructed in the body of the function. std::optional<Fwog::GraphicsPipeline> pipeline; Seems pretty interesting, and by doing this I dont need to use std::unique_ptr in a few places just because I needn deferred initialization
File where I found said code : https://github.com/JuanDiegoMontoya/Fwog/blob/main/example/01_hello_triangle.cpp
shell inlet
you mean you didn't know about optional?
viral haven
I knew about it, but only use it in places where the data type it wraps is optional
Like the mapped buffer pointer for a constant buffer, when the buffer abstraction is same for all types of buffer
I'll switch my code to use it, much better than having these random unique pointers that wrap objects that dont need to be heap allocated and in turn hold some pointers internally
dire badge
optional allows the memory to be pre-allocated
using unique_ptr would mean allocating from heap
for that reason I am myself transitioning from unique_ptr to optional where possible
optional<> member memory is part of the struct/class it is part of
shell inlet
it's a tagged union that's pretty much all there is to it
dire badge
on the other hand, unique_ptr<> works with forward declared types
optional<> needs the type to be defined
long robin
Jaker, is this way of deferring initialization considered 'good practice' or is ...
It's kinda hacky compared to just initializing the pipeline in the member initializer list
But that means I'd need another function to make the pipeline 😩
I think using std::optional is not a bad way of doing deferred init still, if it is needed
shell inlet
It's kinda hacky compared to just initializing the pipeline in the member initia...
can you massage the oop such that it gets initialized in the right order?
or what is the issue?
long robin
the problem is entirely me being lazy
shell inlet
skill issue!?
long robin
in every other ex🦐le I init the pipelines the correct way
https://github.com/JuanDiegoMontoya/Fwog/blob/main/example/02_deferred.cpp#L295
shell inlet
/s
long robin
maybe I should change it for hello triangle so I don't teach bad habits immediately
shell inlet
people(1) come at you with a raised eyebrow already so perhaps
but tbh maybe it's cause people come to look at examples with too high expectations
you have the mvp tag after all
golden schooner
hehe i rember trying to convince jaker of temporal coupling
back in july last year
long robin
temporal coping
golden schooner
🔬
long robin
@heavy cipher remember when you teased me for that sus "avoids UB" comment that my program has? well now I can blame someone else
long robin
apparently the race to write the constant value 1 to the buffer
without an atomic op ye
shell inlet
that does look like ub
well it's not ub for nvidia, when published by nvidia, cuz they're in charge of the behaviour
would be evil if picked up as is and broken on other vendors' hardware
long robin
maybe they can just bundle the correctness into some implicitly-enabled shader extension like GL_NV_gpu_shader69
shell inlet
ngl the "no atomics required" comment sounds like tongue in cheek bruh who cares about other hardware
long robin
I'm pretty sure it worked on AMD when I tested but idk
I don't see how this could fail on any hardware tbh, even if it is technically UB
shell inlet
I might be looking too deep into it
long robin
I don't think it's a very big deal overall
it does make my language lawyer senses tingle though
oak garden
it is
golden schooner
thank you pixel 🙂
long robin
ok I just realized that you can put immediately-invoked lambda expressions basically anywhere
auto descColor = Fwog::VertexInputBindingDescription{
.location = []() { return 1; }(),
.binding = 1,
.format = Fwog::Format::R8G8B8_UNORM,
.offset = 0,
};
shell inlet
Foo<decltype([]()->void { })> foo;
You can use that for custom hash functions but its a bit cursed
oak garden
std::unordered_map<std::string, int, decltype([](std::string const& s) { return s.size(); })> map;
true
long robin
my autoformatter did not like it, but it checks out
oak garden
Ah yes, () > ()
long robin
👁️>👁️
long robin
making a lambda that returns the constant 1 feels fancy though
shell inlet
no difference for release build after optimizations either
but still not a welcome practice tbh
long robin
I like to put things like this in my code to keep readers on their toes
golden schooner
hehe
long robin
re the conchfusing std::optional thing in hello triangle: it is now fixed (read: gone)
shell inlet
👏
long robin
I like how only the GL 2 ref pages have the warning
golden schooner
heh
that also reminds me of another project i wanted to do
i wanted to make all the glXXX links available as hyperlinks
and link missing ones in the See Also section
long robin
seems like GL lacks an equivalent to arrayPitch and depthPitch in VkSubresourceLayout
so I guess they all use the value for UNPACK_ALIGNMENT
long robin
wtf it took until GL 4.3 to be able to read the stencil plane of a depth+stencil texture
long robin
smoov resizing required basically 0 lines of code to implement
only problem is that it revealed a leak I have in my fbo cache 
fun fact: you know how your cursor "sticks" to the edge of your screen when you're resizing a window? that behavior persists if the app crashes while you're resizing the window
long robin
lel my cache wasn't calling glDeleteFramebuffers on old entries. it was just removing the item from the map
oak garden
If only it was a RAII handle 
heavy cipher
or RAIII
long robin
resource acquisition is leaking (RAIl)
shell inlet
fun fact: you know how your cursor "sticks" to the edge of your screen when you'...
windows bug?
long robin
ye probably
btw the fps goes up to infinity when resizing the window :^)
@shell inlet does this tonemapping operator look familiar to you? do you know its name?
1-exp(-color)
I compared it to reinhard and they are pretty similar
https://www.desmos.com/calculator/5linvlxtyd
it saturates more quickly than reinhard which is nice
shell inlet
<@397737942476652545> does this tonemapping operator look familiar to you? do yo...
no I don't know this one
long robin
maybe it's bespoke
when I google "exponential tone mapper" I get some formula that does not look like the one I just showed (which is what teardown uses btw)
shell inlet
it saturates more quickly than reinhard which is nice
what's nice about that
long robin
reinhard looks washed out/desaturated in my objective opinion
shell inlet
use luminance based version
it preserves chroma
I've sent you one, you said it had moar color
^
extended reinhard with arbitrary white point may also be made to work on luminance
long robin
let's see how teardown looks with reinhard 2
long robin
bespoke vs reinhard1 vs reinhard2
idk what value to select for the white point in reinhard3 so I didn't test that
shell inlet
not enough intensity to test desaturation imo
long robin
yeah the only bright thing in this scene is the lämp
shell inlet
but I can see that the luma rh looks way too saturated
long robin
ye I was surprised
long robin
looks nice
shell inlet
here for lulz I put the tanh which is a standard audio limiter in DSP
used in audio that is
long robin
TIL
shell inlet
it compresses even less than the bespoked
long robin
hmm it seems like it's getting compressed more quickly
shell inlet
and therefore the rate of desaturation should be smaller as well, I think
but more bright parts on the image too
I think it's possible to extend the luma based operator and add controlled desaturation if you still want it
as a separate curve
luma based one just doesn't desaturate whatsoever because chroma is left out of the equation
btw white point in extended reinhard is usually max luminance on the image
but if you want to leave some more white parts on the image with extreme luminance differences (like some dark room with sunlight coming in) you can use some heuristic to clamp it so that you don't compress it all and be left with a dark room as a result
usually determine the upper bound of luminance based on screen coverage
long robin
yeah maybe using some upper %ile luminance instead of just the max
shell inlet
yeah building a histogram out of binned screen tiles is a good starting point
but can be approximated with different means of whole screen
by using two means from power(generalized) mean
long robin
I wonder how well a temporally-accumulated monte carlo sampling scheme would work for this
probably terribly, but it'd be funny
shell inlet
e.g. geometric mean for lower bound (used for autoexposure) and cubic or quadratic mean for upper bound for the white point
long robin
what is g? your test "image"?
golden schooner
bespoke vs reinhard1 vs reinhard2
i like the first one out of the 3
long robin
hehe that's the one already in the game
shell inlet
what is `g`? your test "image"?
normalized gaussian
the "image" is f
those means are all mostly special cases of power mean btw
also I've said it once before but min and max functions are also, in fact, special cases of power mean
for when power is negative and positive infinity
shell inlet
@long robin can you try this out with white = 2 to see if it preserves whites? I think it should
long robin
In Teardown?
shell inlet
yeah
long robin
!remindme 15 hours aaaaa
maiden peakBOT
Alright Jaker, I'll remind you about aaaaa in 15 hours. ID: 54062978
shell inlet
but I mean if there's a different way for you it'll work, but you have the others from teardown already to compare against
shell inlet
long robin
shell inlet
success
long robin
ok I think I see why it's not very HDR
shell inlet
autoexposure?
long robin
it seems like the image is clamped to 1 before bloom
long robin
kinda weird b/c the diffuse light behind the wall is >4
shell inlet
also I went over different tonemapping sources and found one on shadertoy that resembles the one in teardown
it's called rombindahouse tonemapper
it's similar because it uses exp
but it's not exactly just exp
vec3 RomBinDaHouseToneMapping(vec3 color)
{
color = exp( -1.0 / ( 2.72*color + 0.15 ) );
return color;
}
RomBinDaHouseToneMapping
that name has to be a shitpost
long robin
Rom B.?
shell inlet
shell inlet
I hate that shader btw
some tonemappers have srgb conversion in them and some don't
and ones based on extended reinhard called white preserving
but it's just the version with white point beyond which the image is clamped
golden schooner
https://tenor.com/view/stormtrooper-star-wars-stormtroopers-checking-time-checki...
that was a good one ❤️
shell inlet
https://github.com/yusuketokuyoshi/VSGL
Jaker check this out looks like extension of RSM
or maybe don't
it's kinda heavy on maths, not as much of a quick read as I initially thought
long robin
I wish I knew what a spherical gaussian is
long robin
I think maybe instead of doing VXGI next, I'll just skip straight to DDGI
VXGI has some weird stuff like needing geometry shaders or having to render the world 3 times
plus it needs float vector atomics or you have to use some fixed-point yuckiness
that being said, I need a whole RT setup for DDGI 
could be my excuse to start using vulkan so I can get those ez BVH gainz
shell inlet
and make a new vk wrapper?
shell inlet
I wish I knew what a spherical gaussian is
probably what you think it is
it has a very self explanatory name
long robin
gaussian on the surface of a sphere 😳
daring surge
shell inlet
lmao
long robin
notices bulge 😳
shell inlet
when you draw it like that it looks silly
shell inlet
I prefer the colormap version
but the displacement version is better if you have a big range of values on a sphere
long robin
I wonder if amending a commit in VS with no message will apply --no-edit
context: I messed up a commit (not pushed yet) and want to fix it, but without changing the message
ah, it autofills the previous commit message when you check the amend button
nice
finally, society has advanced to the point where we can write
Fwog::Cmd::BindUniformBuffer(0, reprojectionUniformBuffer);
instead of
Fwog::Cmd::BindUniformBuffer(0, reprojectionUniformBuffer, 0, reprojectionUniformBuffer.Size());
shell inlet
default argument magic?
long robin
yeah I just introduced a constant called WHOLE_BUFFER (which totally isn't a copy of VK_WHOLE_SIZE) and then added default args
long robin
it's a constexpr variable
long robin
yeah
shell inlet
makes sense then
long robin
but you just made me realize it was in a slightly wrong namespace
long robin
sad
shell inlet
can't make C folk sad either
even if their choice of language is not universally the best
golden schooner
what about the cluster volumeisms?
long robin
brisk narwhal
time for the daily vulkan shilling
brisk narwhal
what are those clustered volumeisms anyway
long robin
deccer wants me to implement clustered rendering because I said I'd do it at one point
golden schooner
long robin
the thing where you cull point lights?
any kind of punctual light actually, but yeah
efficiently culling spot lights is hell though
golden schooner
https://tenor.com/view/disco-lights-party-time-spotlights-halloween-party-escape-so-cal-gif-12251736
reminds me of your volumetric exshrimple 🙂
brisk narwhal
efficiently culling spot lights is hell though
just trace them cones
digital lion
I think maybe instead of doing VXGI next, I'll just skip straight to DDGI
noo
fyi i tried out the thing I mentioned in #opengl - just fetching the entire triangle in the vertex shader (even if that means a bunch of redundant loads) and it turned out to be slightly faster than geometry shader
so first excuse doesnt count
shell inlet
how much DDGI is actually more memory efficient than VXGI is the question I am wondering about
from my understanding DDGI is a probe based solution on steroids
which also brings about the question of how you utilize it in a big open world environment
not only you have all these accel structs hanging out in memory you also have dense probe arrays there too
VXGI at least perhaps can be made to work with clipmaps
even though I'm skeptical about how good it would perform visual quality wise
long robin
You can make DDGI or any other probe method work with clipmaps
In one demo, they had a few MBs of probes covering a 1km^2 scene and it looked pretty good
One of the main things going for DDGI is that you can practically reuse any existing probe data structure that your engine has, but then upgrade it with the DDGI stuff (vsm per probe and ray tracing)
digital lion
can it handle specular reflections
long robin
uh I think Morgan McGuire talked about specular reflections at the beginning of his DDGI talk
Since you have actual RT, you can use another method like tracing at a low res and blurring based on surface roughness
So DDGI doesn't handle specular itself, but specular can be easily handled some other way
digital lion
uh I think Morgan McGuire talked about specular reflections at the beginning of ...
thanks i'll have a look. don't know anything about ddgi except funny balls in space
final cove
make sure to read the relevant academic papers on morgan mcguire's balls
long robin
btw the teardown post is finally live (as in you don't need a secret link to find it)
https://juandiegomontoya.github.io/index.html
daring surge
where's the animation section ||/s ||
very cool though, i thought about posting this in my work's slack graphics channel but then i realized that may somehow trace back to this discord/me
(imagine this in meme format):
letting people online know my real identity :drake_yes:
letting people irl know my online identity :drake_no:
long robin
one sec, gaming
long robin
when are you posting it fr
do ya mean like on reddit
long robin
long robin
it gets a few posts a day
r/gamedev is trash but maybe it's worth it for da updoots
and actually active community
shell inlet
yeah but it's also 15% odds of not being deleted and banned
their moderators are mentally ill
long robin
they have a no self-promotion rule iirc
which imo this doesn't fall under because I'm not shilling my own product
I'll crosspost to VoxelGameDev too
gotta get the word out
rugged notch
well damn, thanks for the mention
it's not like I literally didn't do anything
the court jester build
long robin
I think I just looked at the people who talked about it in some way from the last time I posted it
kinda hard to keep track of shoutouts so I just made sure y'all were in there 
shell inlet
wait you actually shouted out a guy called void lmao
long robin
how else am I supposed to mention you
shell inlet
why am I there to begin with
long robin
cuz you were here
rugged notch
kinda hard to keep track of shoutouts so I just made sure y'all were in there <:...
you're a good lad
+1 rep
shell inlet
okay it's not like people would look at it and know it was me anyways
btw was live presentation given before the other breakdown
subtle way to say you were first
long robin
yeah, it was
shell inlet
teardown uses threshold bloom the bad kind of bloom
long robin
but at least it doesn't do a single gaussian filter like learnopengl bloom
shell inlet
the learnopengl is truly a message to the creator
rather than description of the resource
k that was rude
long robin
r00d
shell inlet
I will reuse the joke in a different context some time later
golden schooner
gib updoots
<https://www.reddit.com/r/GraphicsProgramming/comments/1172qvq/teard...
done
you have mvp, i fink its worthy to be placed in #graphics-news
heavy cipher
post also on /r/tifu "TIFU by starting work on a blog post 2 weeks late"
heavy cipher
your post was already featured on Sunday in the Graphics Programming weekly, what is this sorcery
shell inlet
what is this gp weekly
long robin
what is this gp weekly
I look at that every week, but I thought you had to submit articles to the author 😄
heavy cipher
(also congrats of course 🙂 )
long robin
Submitted it to gamedev and it has gotten no traffic so far lol
https://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/118trip/teardown_teardown/
rugged notch
you think the average r/gamedev user will even understand what you're talking about?
O ye of too much faith
long robin
yeah the other frame breakdowns that I've seen posted there got a small amount of attention
I wasn't expecting much tbh, judging by the subreddit's contents
heavy cipher
/r/opengl perhamps
long robin
90% of posts are from absolute beginners, and not all of the remaining 10% are technically inclined
shell inlet
what if r/TeardownGame/
long robin
/r/opengl perhamps
Mayb
heavy cipher
you can also consider /r/programming
heavy cipher
just spam it a bit more
long robin
just a spoonful of posts
long robin
what if r/TeardownGame/
I posted it there, but I wonder what the users will think
The users obviously like the game, but I wonder if they care for what my post has to offer
heavy cipher
maybe you could make a mod where you can destroy individual opengl calls
final cove
r/opengl and r/programming sound like places where people go to ask why their glVertex2f doesn't work
long robin
imo
- r/opengl isn't ideal because it has a) lots of noobs and b) the fact that teardown uses opengl is the only relevant thing (I don't show any actual GL calls in the entire breakdown)
- r/programming isn't ideal because there is barely any actual code in the article, and the topic isn't about programming itself, but idk
heavy cipher
imagine the amount of interactions you'll get from people pointing out you posted in the wrong place
long robin
maybe I should've posted in r/programminghorror then
heavy cipher
r/programming is just an aggregator for programming related topics
long robin
hmm you are right
however, I'm out of posting credits for the month, so someone else will have to do it on my behalf if they really want to
final cove
is that a legit thing, I haven't touched reddit in years
long robin
I'm cappin', I just don't feel like posting it more
shell inlet
if elon buys reddit it might become a thing
long robin
-1000 elonbucks
shell inlet
elonbucks lol
heavy cipher
upvotes renamed to elong
golden schooner
the problem is you just posted a link
rather than introducing the thing with a paragraph 😛
but i couldnt care less about reddit, so, disregard what i said
final cove
but i couldnt care less about reddit, so, disregard what i said
this is the correct answer tbh
long robin
hehe I thought about writing a little paragraph to introduce it to each community, but idc
final cove
cover letter vibes
long robin
much easier to just post a link and let people form their own thoughts
golden schooner
nah cover letter vibes is a different thing
long robin
the vibe I get is that it's effort and isn't worth it
golden schooner
fair
long robin
I'm not trying to minmax karma, but rather post to communities that might find the thingy interesting 😄
golden schooner
its all good : )
long robin
some fucked up ray traced shadow maps bruh
not really getting that contact hardening atm
long robin
I'm ray tracing inside of a shadow map, like SSR
so it's not using any of the stuff that makes real ray tracing hard
heavy cipher
not really getting that contact hardening atm
i am
long robin
it's the UE5 thing right
ye
I'm trying to copy it, but I think I'm missing the crucial "virtual shadow maps" component of it, which seems extremely complicated to implement
well I'm seeing how crucial it really is
so far, my implementation of SMRT is about 30 loc
dire badge
And why not real ray tracing?
long robin
because I'm not trying to implement that
dire badge
I am curious why you are not trying?
long robin
I'm explicitly trying to implement something like UE5's SMRT to see how it is
shell inlet
perhaps more work on the host than in the shaders
rt is cooler than whatever hack ue5 has tho
long robin
might try RT when™️ I switch to vulkan
that way all the boring parts are done automatically
shell inlet
even software rt shadows should work fine on as low as gtx1050
long robin
replaced with a bunch of other boring vulkan stuff I have to do
shell inlet
in fact shadows is the possibly fastest type of ray, given that you terminate on any hit (as opposed to closest)
long robin
the fastest ray is the one not cast 
shell inlet
the best rendering technique is the not implemented one
long robin
it's an odd game, to be sure
shell inlet
the best graphics are not rendered on our computers 🧠
long robin
deep
shell inlet
btw the reason I'm skeptical about the UE5 technique is that it looks overly complicated
can't quite put it into words
like a hack on a hack or something
those kinds of algorithms always become a pita in unpredictable ways
my rule of thumb is that the less knobs the algorithm has the better it is
long robin
I think the main problem my impl will have is not having a high enough shadow map resolution
virtual shadow maps basically lets UE increase the shadow map resolution by a huge amount with the same perf
the shadow map is still only a heightmap, which they seem to somewhat deal with by limiting the max shadow angle
UE's impl doesn't seem to exhibit bad artifacts, and it works basically as you would expect
dire badge
I've almost totally stopped trying to do "better" shadows with rasterization. Why bother, in a few years raytracing will be the solution anyway
shell inlet
looking forward to nvidia either reducing rasterization capabilities, or buying a case with the size of an average kitchen refrigerator
long robin
I've almost totally stopped trying to do "better" shadows with rasterization. Wh...
ray tracing is already a solution for shadows on current GPUs
the question is when are shadow maps going to be slower
long robin
the shrimple solution is always to implement both things and blend them in a clever way
heavy cipher
you mean the unshrimple solution
long robin
double plus unshrimple
long robin
@shell inlet I was reading mjp's blog and stumbled upon this article 😄
https://therealmjp.github.io/posts/sg-series-part-2-spherical-gaussians-101/
perfect for me
long robin
a potentially interesting idea for fwog is to have it run and make gl calls on another thread
would be sort of a massive butt pain making the infrastructure to defer calls and whatnot, just to potentially move the driver overhead to a thread
heavy cipher
would you really want to do that instead of vk?
(not meming this time, pinky swear)
long robin
honestly it's probably less effort than moving to vk
but vk still offers a million other things that makes it nice
and it's not like I'm drowning in driver overhead rn. I just thought of it because it was brought up in #opengl
heavy cipher
#opengl
long robin
I look at that channel to feel something, anything at all. Ya feel?
golden schooner
did i not suggest such an endeavor some time ago already
long robin
bet
golden schooner
streaming verticles and textures via freds should be intermeresting
oak garden
Thats very doable because you can shrimply write to a mapped buffer
golden schooner
yep, but the infrastructure around it is what makes the thing interesting
long robin
@golden schooner I see you are utilizing the handy inverted rainbow emoji from the voxel server 😄
long robin
btw a discussion with dethraid made me realize that I forgor to load textures as srgb in the fwog examples 💀
golden schooner
: )
i load them as srgb in enginekit since we last schpoke abou it
3 or 4 weeks ago
you should also port that mc clone to fwog 🙂
long robin
you should also port that mc clone to fwog 🙂
mayb
long robin
now I need a tonemapper because I cranked the sunlight
the colors feel so saturated now 😄 (with reinhard_luminance)
wow this scene has actual color
I feel like a colorblind person seeing color for the first time in this 😄
golden schooner
xD
i must admit this one looks the best out of the ones ive seen so far
"colorful" indeed
long robin
also I think I had a revelation
storing srgb albedo in your gbuffer is probably a good thing
teardown didn't need to have an RGBA16_UNORM albedo buffer, but instead RGBA8_SRGB
golden schooner
are you adding that thought to your publication?
long robin
perhaps
long robin
I don't have any plans to do so
golden schooner
why not
long robin
my fork has some "jaker" comments in it so I can quickly search for my changes 😄
in case something broke
it also moves the include to a different folder because that's how I like it
therefore idk if it's ideal to submit as a PR
golden schooner
that one should just be a CMakeLists.txt ism
you could PR just the actual fixes without the folder changes?
long robin
the fixes are kinda meh
see for yourself if you think it's PR-worthy (just look at the most recent 4 commits)
https://github.com/JuanDiegoMontoya/enet/commits/master
golden schooner
i thought WIN32_LEAN_AND_MEAN defines all the NOXXXs
there is also a VC_XXX_LEAN_XXX thing
hmm the last commit probably makes the most sense
but i see why you dont feel its worth the hassle
long robin
i thought WIN32_LEAN_AND_MEAN defines all the NOXXXs
idk
but it looks funny when you have that big list of defines
golden schooner
its more exschleppicite
long robin
back to the original topic: teardown is failing to use srgb images anywhere, so it has to 1) do pow(color, 2.2) on materials to convert to linear, and 2) use an extra-wide albedo buffer to account for storing gbuffer albedo in linear
anyways, I wonder if gltf textures declare their usage
or if I have to create srgb views of color textures after they are uploaded and I can see that they are being used for color
golden schooner
could it be in sampler?
long robin
looks like it's only implicitly specified in the material
so once I see that an image is used for color, I can make an srgb view of it and throw the texture away
The base color texture MUST contain 8-bit values encoded with the sRGB opto-electronic transfer function so RGB values MUST be decoded to real linear values before they are used for any computations. To achieve correct filtering, the transfer function SHOULD be decoded before performing linear interpolation.
this spec is nice because it doesn't have a memory model section
golden schooner
hmm
long robin
I did a temporary hack to fix srgb
since my ex🦐les only support albedo texture, I just load all textures as srgb
golden schooner
you could invest another 2 minutes and make it proper
during material load time you pretty much know what texture is what... albedo/normal/ARM
and then do the thing you did there
long robin
fine, I'll do it properly 😄
golden schooner
then i can finally go dodo in peace 🙂
long robin
gn my prince
golden schooner
long robin
making a new member function of texture for creating a view of it with a different format 👀
[[nodiscard]] TextureView CreateFormatView(Format newFormat) const;
Formatted sounds weird, so I'll do WithFormat
long robin
you won't like these other ones
[[nodiscard]] TextureView CreateMipView(uint32_t level) const;
[[nodiscard]] TextureView CreateLayerView(uint32_t layer) const;
oh god
CreateViewForMipLevel
CreateViewForLayer
ideally CreateTextureViewFor..Ism..
long robin
erm actually
explicit TextureView(const TextureViewCreateInfo& viewInfo, const Texture& texture, std::string_view name = "");
i like void's interjection more than CreateMipView/LayerView
shell inlet
you are already vulkan all along
golden schooner
CreateLayeredView/CreateMippedView
long robin
sometimes I question how certain emojis get put into unicode
golden schooner
jaker i understand you are american, struggling with your language is a natural thing
long robin
I've seen CreateMipView in other code and it was instantly obvious to me what it meant
it creates a view of a mip
a mip view
ed too
shell inlet
so you're making shortcut methods basically
long robin
because the CreateInfo struct is quite verbose
shell inlet
good design
long robin
I would use Of instead of For if I wanted it to read like a sentence
golden schooner
CreateView(CreateViewForMipInfo info)
long robin
CreateViewOfMip
shell inlet
alternatively you could make a class that would spit out structs with defaults based on enum
but if there are fields that are automatically filled in based on the object's state then that solution falls off
golden schooner
naming things are hard
and i will support any decision you take, naturally
but you will not hear the end of it 😄
long robin
naturally
long robin
I can't tell if that fella is supposed to animate at a variable rate
probably just a classic gif rendering bug
golden schooner
methinks its on purpose
long robin
some of the gifs that loop at full speed get pretty messed up
golden schooner
first time i hear that
long robin
clep sometimes sends a : hype : gif that has broken looping
golden schooner
you can set a frametime between individual frames in jiffs
long robin
maybe it's because my monitor is 60hz and gifs can only do 50hz
golden schooner
i will keep an eye on it
long robin
oh gif can actually go up to 100hz
but I remembered that 50hz is the ideal target
https://wunkolo.github.io/post/2020/02/buttery-smooth-10fps/
heavy cipher
you won't like these other ones
```cpp
[[nodiscard]] TextureView CreateMipVi...
y tho
golden schooner
srgbisms
long robin
single mip is useful for bloomisms
golden schooner
single layer is useful for debuggling arrays
long robin
mayhaps I can make that be the base layer/mip
heavy cipher
not trusting the user with two values is a bit silly
golden schooner
can you actually create a textureview for more than 1isms in gl?
long robin
ye
golden schooner
besides calling CreateViewXXX more than 1ce 🙂
heavy cipher
that doesn't make no sense
long robin
can you actually create a textureview for more than 1isms in gl?
you explicitly choose the number of levels and mips in glTextureView
golden schooner
ah i thought it was the actual level or mip in glTV, my B
long robin
@heavy cipher these are just convenience functions, the constructor for TextureView lets you specify everything
heavy cipher
can you make a textureview from a textureview
long robin
yeah
long robin
like many small utility functions, the user could just define em themselves
but I find them handy from time to time, so I'm putting them in so I don't have a bunch of redundant definitions for this stuff lying around
heavy cipher
I'd probably make the name more shouty then, CreateSingleMipView or smth
long robin
@golden schooner this "2-minute change" to properly load materials is turning out to be an entire overhaul
I also learned about std::ranges::move recently, which is pretty cool
heavy cipher
classic
golden schooner
I'd probably make the name more shouty then, CreateSingleMipView or smth
indeed, this is not bad either
long robin
oh yeah, now it runs and everything looks exactly the same as before
the factor has been ree'd
golden schooner
at least the code base reeds (read reads) better now 🙂
heavy cipher
what did u change?
long robin
previously, I just had a big array of textures and each material would hold an index (or indices) into that
now, each material holds its own texture view(s)
the problem was that the usage of a texture wasn't known until a material referenced it
but now, materials hold their own sRGB view(s) of color textures
heavy cipher
neat
long robin
basically it is the classic separation of storage vs usage
long robin
yeah
at one point I used only texture views, but it was painful
I "had" to store both textures and their views, or create views on demand
both of which feel like writing extra code for no gain
heavy cipher
the great srgb disaster of 2023
long robin
frrrrrrrrrrr
shell inlet
it never ended
long robin
srgb and its consequences
digital lion
fwog is going places
shell inlet
#ad
shell inlet
@long robin what if we tonemap in okhsl space
wanna try it
?
if I get you the code
it's a perceptually uniform hsl
so no hue shifts when lerp two colors
long robin
wanna try it
Sure
Never heard of okhsl, but it sounds similar to things I have heard of
shell inlet
ok honestly tinkered with it and couldn't make it noticeably better than luma reinhard 🫤
unhype
there might be some slight advantage that it doesn't shift hue though
but I'd need a real HDR image to test everything which shadertoy doesn't have
so all in all more effort than I can afford to put currently
daring surge
you should add a bunch of Create____ functions, but randomize the name of them between Create_, Make_, Generate_, Build_, Construct_
long robin
but I'd need a real HDR image to test everything which shadertoy doesn't have
Why do you need HDR images to test it? Don't you just need floats in the shader?
shell inlet
Why do you need HDR images to test it? Don't you just need floats in the shader?
lack of natural contrast in intensity from multiple light sources, I can scale whole image by some huge factor but that's fake as hell and rip precision
long robin
you can do fake (or real) lighting math in the shader
shell inlet
I can also test on the color gradient by mapping hue and lightness to uv
long robin
lol
Loading took 22.153 ms
Node: 对象409
Node: 对象393
Node: 对象392
Node: 对象391
Node: 对象388
Node: 对象389
Node: 对象390
Node: 对象387
Node: 对象027
Node: Plane062
Node: 图形001
Node: Rectangle001
Node: Plane031
Node: 对象353
Node: 组019
Node: 组020
Node: 组018
Node: 组015
Node: 对象311
Node: 组013
Node: 对象352
Loaded glTF: H:/Repositories/glTF-Sample-Models/downloaded schtuff/shadow_test.glb
uh
I wonder if this is a bug in tinygltf or if these strings are not ascii encoded
I guess it's not actually a wstring
I have decided that I don't care about this
heavy cipher
string but for webgpu
oak garden
Some of them pake sense or partial sense
long robin
glTF JSON data SHOULD be written with UTF-8 encoding without BOM. This requirement is not applied when a glTF implementation does not control string encoding. glTF implementations SHOULD adhere to RFC 8259, Section 8.1. with regards to treating BOM presence.
perhaps I was reading them correctly all along
oak garden
oak garden
!! attention citizen 注意公民 this mesh 这个网格 has been confiscated by the CCP 被中共没收 !! Do not render this incorrectly 不要错误地渲染它 Or 1000 social credits will be deducted from your account 否则将从您的帐户中扣除 1000 社会信用
long robin
you can actually tell which parts of the mesh are an aftermarket addition
golden schooner
CCP is eve online, what kind of model do you load there jaker?
long robin
It's the shadow test scene that someone gave me in #general
I posted a pic or two of it in here some days ago
It's the little gray market stall thingy
golden schooner
ah
i started to yeet wonky models from my local asset store
ther were a bit of chinese characterisms involved too
kaput materials
or not even what was shown in the preview
rugged notch
rendering with chinese characteristics
long robin
