Gunplay

[feral galleon]

Will we see any improvements to the gunplay from HLL?

In HLL almost all guns are lasers, with recoil and sway not really playing any part, are there any changes being made to make shots require more skill?

Are we sticking with the same damage models? For example, will it continue to be 1 shot anywhere on legs/arms for some weapons or will we see something more complex?

[craggy remnant]

With all the assault rifles in Vietnam they better change up the gunplay

[summer star]

This question absolutely needs to be addressed. If they're just copy/pasting weapon damage/hitbox values from HLL1, that'd be such a disappointment.

[quartz thicket]

I think that the game should still have a very fast TTK. Part of what makes the game fun is the fact that gunfights are incredibly lethal. I think having assault rifles kill in one shot to the torso at 100 meters is still fair.
One thing I really hope they don’t do is go with the classic “5.56 is a weak cartridge” myth. The 5.56 cartridge is more than capable of putting someone down in one shot. The Vietnam-era M16 rifles, in particular, were known to cause some nasty wounds. A 55 grain projectile coming out of a 20 inch barrel with a 1:12 twist rate tends to tumble and fragment in the body, causing some devastating wounds.

[proper timber]

Bullets need to be BULLETS

A 5.56 and a 7.62 are different cartridges and do a different amount of damage to flesh

[fast nebula]

I think this is why they're changing to UE5. They noted in the dev notes that the new standalone version for this lets them remake this without being tied to the old code so I'm curious to see too, but it should be something they're planning to address with what they've noted so far. Only time will tell though 🤞

[wild heath]

its not exaclty a weak round, but its small and very light. not to mention the balistics of 5.56 vs 7.62x51 is dramatically different. i can see someone taking 2 7.62 to the torso and going down but if its 5.56 might need to use a few more. this kinda reminds me of the Philippine-American war of 1899-1902. with the US re-issuing .45 colt cause the .38 long colt did not have enough stopping power.

incidents like the 1905 case of Antonio Caspi, who was shot multiple times with .38 Long Colt rounds but remained a threat until struck with a carbine butt.
This led to the Army re-issuing the older .45 Colt Single Action Army revolvers as an emergency measure.

im not saying that 5.56 is not a good cartridge, just not as effective as 7.62: due it its small size and light weight. why we have 5.56 as a standard issue? the 7.62mm round offers greater range and stopping power, the U.S. military determined that the advantages of the 5.56mm round—specifically increased ammunition capacity, reduced recoil, and improved controllability—outweighed these benefits for the typical combat environment.

[bitter abyss]

Improvements to gunplay would be good but I don't think it should go to the same level as squad. Part of what makes HLL good in my opinion is the ever so slight arcade elements.

[quartz thicket]

While it is true that 7.62 technically has more stopping power, the idea that 5.56 can’t kill in one shot is simply untrue. Most lethality issues from 5.56 come from recent anecdotes in the War on Terror. This is widely because of the prevalent use of the M4 Carbine in conjunction with the M855 cartridge. The M855 Cartridge was designed to be used with the M16A2, which had a 20 inch barrel. The M4 Carbine only has an 14.5 inch barrel. A shorter barrel will result in a lower muzzle velocity, and the muzzle velocity is what gives 5.56 its lethality.
This is especially true for the M16A1 and the M193 cartridges issued in Vietnam. The light 55 grain cartridges traveling from a 20 inch barrel at 3,250 FPS is going to destabilize on impact, causing it to yaw and fragment in soft targets, not to mention more “controversial” elements like hydrostatic shock. Some of the wounds caused by the M16 in Vietnam were so devastating that the pictures had to remain classified until the 1980s.

The main problems with M193 that led to the development of M855 are

1. The M193 tends to destabilize and lose velocity and accuracy, and therefore lethality, outside of 300 meters
2. While M193 is effective on soft targets, it is not very good at penetrating hard targets and barriers at longer ranges.

[wild heath]

7.62 is heavier and larger in size than 5.56 do i need to bring in 7.62x39 and how effective that is or 300 blackout. the heavier the round the more kinetic energy that is transferred into the target. therefore 7.62 can put someone on the ground more effectively than 5.56. although the 7.62mm is heavier, slower, and more powerful with greater penetration and range, while the 5.56mm is lighter, faster, and generally better for close-quarters combat and carrying larger quantities of ammunition. The ideal choice depends on the specific mission, environment, and shooter's preference, as the 7.62mm excels in open areas and against barriers, while the 5.56mm is more controllable and lighter to carry.

[quartz thicket]

I’m not saying that 7.62 isn’t more effective at longer ranges. I’m saying that 5.56 is still very lethal within typical combat ranges (within 300 meters), and more than capable of killing someone in one shot within that range. The fact that heavier bullets are better at barrier penetration at range is why the M855 and later M855A1 were adopted.

Personally, in terms of damage models for the game itself, I’d say assault rifles like the M16 and AK-47 (which shoot 5.56 and 7.62x39 respectively) should be 1HK at up to 100 meters, while larger caliber battle rifles and bolt-action rifles like the M14 and Mosin-Nagant should 1HK out to 200 meters.

[wild heath]

i can agree on that.

[quartz thicket]

Yeah, my primary concern is that they’ll go with the idea that 5.56 isn’t powerful enough to one-tap someone, and they’ll make it take 2-3 shots to kill at all ranges, and they’ll have the AK do more damage, which will really mess up the balance with small-arms firefights.
So I’m really hoping that, even with the switch from bolt-action and semi-auto to assault rifles, the gunplay doesn’t change too much in terms of damage because I love how lethal the firefights are. I love the fact that, no matter what weapon you use, nearly every one will kill in one shot within a certain distance (except for SMGs and pistols).

I would also like to add these pictures of ballistic tests of both the M193 5.56 Cartridge and the M43 7.62x39 Cartridge, and the article they are from to demonstrate my point about the devastating wounds caused by 5.56. http://www.ciar.org/ttk/mbt/papers/misc/paper.x.small-arms.wounding-ballistics.patterns_of_military_rifle_bullets.fackler.unk.html

The 7.62 is able to travel further into the target, but the 5.56 fragments and yaws, causing a bigger wound cavity.

[wild heath]

id say within 50-100m both should be able to deal the same damage, but beyond that it should differ. 7.62 should have more drop unless its a DMR or bolt: 5.56 shouldnt drop much but less damage at range 200m+

if i want to spice it up. id say under 50m 7.62 should deal less due to over penetration.

[quartz thicket]

I think it depends on which 7.62 we’re talking about. 7.62x39 is more of an intermediate cartridge, unlike 7.62x51 or 7.62x54R, which are full-sized rifle rounds, and they will have different ballistic properties.
7.62x39 is used in assault rifles like the AK-47 (and also the SKS), while 7.62x51 and 7.62x54R are used by battle rifles, machine guns, and bolt-action sniper rifles (M60, M14, and M40 for 7.62x51, Mosin-Nagant, SVT-40, PK Machine gun, etc. for 7.62x54R).

If it were really up to me, I’d make firefights even more lethal. Assault rifles like the M16 and AK would be 1HK out to 300, and the advantages would be in how they perform. M16 would have lighter recoil and flatter trajectory. AK would have better barrier penetration and (since this is Vietnam and M16s mostly had 20 round mags at this time) more ammo per magazine.
Larger caliber rounds like 7.62x51 and 7.62x54R would 1HK out to 500 meters (maybe further if Unreal Engine 5 allows for further rendering distance. Maybe out to 1,000m).

This is all assuming the bullet hits the torso, and not the limbs. Headshots would obviously 1HK at any range with any caliber.

[wild heath]

id say 7.62x51 over all should drop more. but accuracy should vairy depending on the rifle.

[quartz thicket]

And I’d also say that damage and 1HK distances should depend on caliber and not weapon type. I always found it weird that the Kar98k with irons could only 1HK out to 200, but the one with a scope could 1HK out to 500.

[wild heath]

i agree, it should depend on caliber not weapon type. but accuracy should.

[quartz thicket]

Well, yeah, by default you’re gonna be more accurate at longer ranges with a magnified optic than with irons.

And an XM21 is gonna be at least a bit more accurate than a standard M14 because they were hand-picked for accuracy.

Either way, yeah, I think that firefights in this game should be at least just as lethal as in the original Hell Let Loose, if not even more so.

[wild heath]

with what ive seen with the few games that are in this era. both teams having semi auto, the jungle. at minimum it should be on the same level as HLL

[quartz thicket]

I’d say that a fair system for damage that most people wouldn’t find too outrageous would be like this.
Pistol caliber weapons (9mm, .45 ACP): pretty much the same as HLL. 2HK out to 75m, 3HK beyond that.
Intermediate rifle calibers (5.56, 7.62x39): 1HK out to 100m (maybe 150 or 200 if we wanna get a little crazy), 2HK beyond that.
Full size rifle calibers (7.62x51, 7.62x54R, .30-06): 1Hk out to 500 meters (maybe even further if UE5 allows for further rendering distances).
Combat in Vietnam was terrifying. It’s terrifying in every war, but in Vietnam it was so bad. Damage models in the game should reflect how lethal combat was.

[halcyon shore]

I hope this does not change would actually make it not about skill. What squad did was a crime and should not be repeated by any game.

[craggy remnant]

its probably more skillfull to get good with squads gunplay that HLL lol

[halcyon shore]

Yeah whoever is not moving wins tons of skill

[craggy remnant]

same can pretty much be said for HLL lol
HLL gunpaly is the most basic barebones form of gunplay in any hardcore shooter.

[opaque thicket]

I recently learned all the good bush places. Its impressive how many there are and how hard you are to spot.

-# (in HLL)

[full dust]

It will be a fine balance between making sure it still feels and plays like HLL, but improved in the sense that weapons all feel unique from one another, and handle a bit differently. TTK should remain brutal AF, and maybe things like fire mode selectors for relevant weapons and a tad more sway, misalignment, etc. to make shooting a hair more challenging. But take it too far and you'll lose a lot of people like Squads ICO.

[quartz thicket]

I think sway should probably depend on the weapon. For example, the M14 was pretty heavy, so it should have some sway to it. However, the M16 that replaced it was very lightweight, so it shouldn’t have a whole lot of sway. MGs like the M60 should definitely have some hefty sway to them.

[full dust]

Yea that would make sense

[molten ruin]

Do what rising storm did

[full dust]

Rising Storm is kinda jank though. I like the idea of a tad more weapon sway and the ability to rest weapons on ledges and such to stabilize. Fire selector modes, possible adjustable sights (though they aren't used by the majority of players really), and better scope optics. Actually being able to use iron sights with scoped weapons would be nice as well for quick closer range fights.

[craggy remnant]

RS2s gunplay is probably the best I've seen in any game tbh
The guns can feel super unique in their handling, recoil manages to be controllable but still unpredictable if not managed properly. It all manages to click together to feel just right. Compared to HLL where it is extremely basic

[wise island]

Using MG60 like this!
Historical Accurate right ?