Half Combat Speed Experimental Preview

[pseudo epoch]

Both at full ramp sized to the amount of time it took to deliver full capacity of the front chaingun.
Left current client ran at 1x speed
Right preview client ran at 2x speed
Game speed changed such that the preview should have no impact on the time it takes to empty the guns, yet the preview took 20 seconds instead of 10.

The preview client would have needed 40 seconds at the same speed

above

suspect max ramp is firing at half the speed it should be

result being 4x slower ammo use instead of 2x

[hollow breach]

Right, so the damage per ammo is the same, but preview is taking four times as long to actually use the ammo?

[tawny ledge]

walt's list of changes said fire rate had not been changed, hm

however ammo consumption was halved

[pseudo epoch]

the damage is half (600 down to 300) and it is taking 4 times longer to use the ammo

no wonder I feel like these are so weak now

[tawny ledge]

yea thats just ions that use bullets now

[hollow breach]

I thought you'd said when doing the calculations that it was roughly equivalent on paper?

(The dps)

[pseudo epoch]

The max damage of ammo is nearly equal

Not the dps

[hollow breach]

Ahhhh, okay, gotcha

[pseudo epoch]

I have roughly 1600 ammo that gives roughly 3.8m total damage

[cloud plume]

Is this really necessary? Can’t people just play at half speed if combat is too fast for them?

[pseudo epoch]

the time it takes to deliver that 3.8m damage is what is taking so long

The fire rate at max ramp is the exact same at 30 shots per second.
The damage in preview gets cut in half and ammo consumption doubled.
The ammo capacity in preview is unchanged for the magazines but is changed for the chaingun. This results in needing to fire the gun 2x as much, while each bullet is doing half the damage of before

[hollow breach]

1x is the default game speed, and should be aligned with the intended gameplay experience. Sure, there are kinks to work out, but from the testing we've been doing internally, the default game experience is much more manageable/enjoyable

[remote wind]

iT OVERHAULS THE GAME IN MANY WAYS

[winter tree]

Imma be real
Half crew speed is neither more manageable nor enjoyable

[remote wind]

Ahem, sorry, it overhauls the game in many ways

[winter tree]

Fuck that shit

[pseudo epoch]

I too love capitalizing my accidental caps lock

[remote wind]

Just... go to 1x speed...

[winter tree]

Logistics is already bad enough as-is, this is just making it worse

[tawny ledge]

there is literally no change because everything now uses stuff half as much

except TBs, which was unintended

[rough flint]

???? every other logistical need (in combat/travel) has also been reduced to match it?

[cloud plume]

Gotta agree. The game is already not fast. And the time management exists for precisely that reason: to slow down combat for those who it’s too fast for.

[winter tree]

factories
also storage

[pseudo epoch]

honestly, I am SHOCKed how uneffected some systems are. my shields are slower to recharge, but my MRTs were unchanged

[hollow breach]

There should be little to no change, except for a few things. The fact that there are is unintentional

[sullen summit]

factories were halved

[winter tree]

Yeah

[tawny ledge]

storage doesn't consume anything and factories are also haved

[sullen summit]

wdym storage??

[whole pumice]

There are actual ganeplay changes. Its not just that the default game speed is different.

[pseudo epoch]

The reason my shields are slower is because I am using a barracks, so the slower speed magnified their impact slightly

[winter tree]

You know
Moving resources around

And using resource factories

Which cough cough need resources

[tawny ledge]

resource factories will have halved consumption though

so supplying them doesn't matter

[cloud plume]

If this becomes standard, at least give us x16 speed.

[sullen summit]

"you know" is a terrible argument if u are trying to convince someone who doesn't know

[hollow breach]

Combat is very much too fast for newer players to keep up with at 1x speed. I'd argue the time management exists more for speeding up than slowing down, design-wise

[tawny ledge]

moving stuff around the ship will be a little slower, which seems if anything like it'd encourage building ships like actual freighter designs with corridors/moving walkways to access rows of storage instead of just 4x4s to infinity

[winter tree]

Not on resources...?

If they are to do that then the resource -> refined resource ratio is changed

[unreal mesa]

i still think this update is very poorly implemented, it will be hard to get genuine critique on this as a concept when there are like 6 parts that are just blatantly broken/unbalanced

[cloud plume]

To speed up time you use x2, x4 and x8. The other half of that option is to slow down time. If it’s not meant to be used to slow down the game what else is it for?

[winter tree]

I dont have power issues supplying, only issues with getting raw resources there

[tawny ledge]

• Halved munition factory production rates

[winter tree]

munition factories

[unreal mesa]

also this is ultimately a buff to speed meta XD

[sullen summit]

hey @hollow breach do crew ticks still happen every 3 game ticks?

[unreal mesa]

everything carcinizes into a speed meta buff

speed meta buff and ion nerf

[remote wind]

Please explain how instead of making baseless claims, as they do not help anyone to understand the point you're trying to get across

[winter tree]

I still need to produce a shitton of steel, now with half the crew speed

[unreal mesa]

large shields and nukes are overpowered

as im sure some know

[sullen summit]

if you ever wanted to produce more resources faster just speed the game up, you have never been limited by the rate of those factories

[unreal mesa]

plus the new driftiness and far higher practical top speed buffs monothrust ships greatly

[tawny ledge]

out of combat factory logistics are, quite frankly, not very important
since they are not going to be competing with shields or weapons for power supply, they can be shoved right next to your reactor, and assign raw resources to the storage closest to the factories as well

[pseudo epoch]

I wonder if chainguns would be fine if the combat speed change was extending the ramp time from 10 to 20 seconds... This definitely impacts a lot of ship, but would accomplish part of the goal...

Still feel the answer is some strange mix and overall rebalance that feels as the same identify

[hollow breach]

I would assume the same update rate was maintained, but the ticks per second have been halved

[tawny ledge]

LS will however now also recharge slower and a weapon that is literally purpose-built to crush shields now travels twice as fast

[winter tree]

I do
I generally run at 8x and it still takes ages, even with a good chunk of crew
With halved crew speed its going to be even more painful

[tawny ledge]

get more factories

[pseudo epoch]

Oh god.... My crew task limit tests need to be redone again noooooooo

[unreal mesa]

ls dont recharge slower, they recharge at the relative same rate and have double the maximum hp

[cloud plume]

HOLD ON! IDEA!

Make this a difficulty setting. Easy goes at 50% speed (what we’re testing now), medium at 75% and hard at 100%. It can be set similarly to the damage and cost settings. Best of all worlds.

[hollow breach]

To be clear, this is not my work. As a less capable, and more career oriented player, I have very much enjoyed our internal career testing, which we have played nearly exclusively at 1x speed.

[tawny ledge]

oh yea thats fair i still need to test things
all projectiles moving twice as fast is still definitely something that will change the "speed meta" since it's less feasible to dodge 2x speed disruptor bolts and 2x speed EMPs and HE

[winter tree]

Except they produce them fast enough that even now its semi-difficult to keep uptime, good luck doing it with halved crew speed when you have 2,000+ iron you need to process

[unreal mesa]

no, now only the fastest ships can dodge those shots

[tawny ledge]

halved acceleration might also potentially affect turning to avoid mines (which are now easier to lay out)

[unreal mesa]

this is what these changes miss

[winter tree]

And if you want a decently organized storage system you are out of luck given the crew speed changes

[unreal mesa]

nuke buff -> nukes harder to dodge? ul better because ul can still dodge them

[tawny ledge]

yea
a very important thing to remember that i think a lot of us here forget is that our concerns are entirely different from those of like 90% of the playerbase

[pseudo epoch]

I rarely ever use 1x speed. In career I pause, and choose speed based on my confidence in the fight. more confidence means sometimes 4x is fine. unknown fights get 1/4 or 1/8

[winter tree]

^^^

[unreal mesa]

please just for the love of god join excelsior, devs

it would be a lot easier to see whats going on in terms of pvp balance

[tawny ledge]

You grab like anyone that plays the game from Steam or somewhere and start saying MRTs are bad because it means people make ships that are just a giant MRT with nukes and LS slapped on and their response will be "so what? my freighters go fast now and i don't need to put huge thrusters in my ship"

[remote wind]

Joining excelsior is an asinine concept that will assist in no way. Furthermore building the game around career mode is a much higher priority given that there is octuple the amount of players that will enjoy these changes, despite the fact that pvp players are octuply as loud

[winter tree]

I generally sit at 8x when processing ores (due to hardware limits), and 16x when traveling
Combat is 1x or 1/4x if I want to be precise

[hollow breach]

I usually just poll Saris / Redstone for pvp balance questions. Frankly, I don't have a strong enough knowledge to determine whether a balance comment has validity or not

[remote wind]

That's not even to adress that pvp people have no clue how to balance things having been someone who took a stab at it for several years

[tawny ledge]

While all parts of the playerbase must be considered, it is not worth changing something for the sake of a tenth of the playerbase if it'll cause problems everywhere else

[unreal mesa]

i personally dont care much about the nitty gritty, ill just play with it off, but i think ls, chaingun, and tbs balance states are absolutely an issue for career

[pseudo epoch]

Combat balance is a hard one to get right without trustworthy knowledgeable input. Definitely happy to see devs use that knowledge well. It has shown, and I like the results

[tawny ledge]

also, they'll want to balance things in a way that benefits them more
This is a thing that's happened to FPS's in the past - they consulted only the competitive players, casual players felt like all the updates were terrible (because they were geared for people practically playing a different game) and the comp players mostly just got updates to make things better for themselves

[hollow breach]

I believe one goal was to keep travel time the same, despite everything else being half the speed

[winter tree]

But noone plays the game in just 1x, resource gathering and travel time is too long for that
Current speed is fine- and for logistics we need more speed

[tawny ledge]

i don't remember how much career factories cost, but it might be good to incentivize building more factories instead of making one factory, setting the game to 8x, and checking your phone

[winter tree]

And logistics/manufacturing just needs more love anyways tbh

[unreal mesa]

i think cosmoteer is inherently a different game and that if the weapon is balanced in elim it will be balanced in career

[cloud plume]

Exactly. If combat is too fast, use 1/2 speed! That’s literally what it’s for!

[winter tree]

^^^^^^

[hollow breach]

I strongly agree. This is something that we have discussed at relative length and do want to address

[rough flint]

however - usually it is the pvpers that take direct action (modding things, changing it, giving exact numbers) that are easy to implement imo

[tawny ledge]

I seriously doubt it
PVP's balance is very different
you don't see career players with ships that are half thrust or 18 disruptors

[remote wind]

Granted, but pvp players are good at pvp, not game balance. They have the ability to throw things at the wall more often but that isn't as relevent when most suggestions are also missing the target

[winter tree]

please give us more factories and better ways to supply them, my steel mills are d y i n g

[rough flint]

i don't see how making the afk automatic resource part of the game can be made more interesting beyond wasting less time doing it

[unreal mesa]

balance wise i think you do want ur ship to be half thrust in career, its just that career players dont usually do that

[winter tree]

And a way to bulk move items

[tawny ledge]

Perhaps a bit of a harsh way to put it, but it is the PVP meta that conforms to the game, the game does not conform to the PVP meta

[winter tree]

Imma be real im lucky if I get 60m/s out of my ships

[remote wind]

Can I frame this on my wall

[rough flint]

currently the game is conforming it in a way that is not very fun (like with explosion guns), so things should be changed

[remote wind]

.
Its worth noting that this is a test patch, a veritable preview, and that things like chainguns, nukes and shields will all receive tinkering

[tawny ledge]

Go ahead

[rough flint]

i would offer to fix nukes myself but alas i have no time to do so

[tawny ledge]

mfw the devs test something out and it does not perfectly address all problems i have ever had with the game

[hollow breach]

There are plenty of ways, but there are zero ways if you don't like that gameplay

[rough flint]

true

can you give an example?

[tawny ledge]

more noncombat stuff in general is probably necessary for career, i feel that many people might see career as "pvp against shitty bot designs instead of humans" or just bounty hunter mode when it should have more than that

[winter tree]

Being able to set up a full manufacturing line that you can consistently refine/upgrade while cruising through asteroids and mining
I would love this

[hollow breach]

My ideal state for non-combat gameplay is to allow for players to ignore it, dip their toes in with low complexity (basically like current factories), or go all in.
I think a lot of that just comes down to providing actual design challenges and decisions for non-combat ships and parts.

[pseudo epoch]

Factorio, Satisfactory, Every old MMO...

[rough flint]

that does not help at all

[tawny ledge]

bulk trading orders instead of emergency deliveries, escort missions, recover the wreck of this lost patrol ship, privateering, et cetera

[rough flint]

but you can do that already?

[pseudo epoch]

"afk mechanics that are fun"

cookie clicker

[tawny ledge]

Fun varies between people, but it is doable

[rough flint]

can you give an example of this "going all in"? i can't imagine anything beyond optimizing factory/storage throughput

[tawny ledge]

No Man's Sky is another example with a lot of different stuff to do, and industry is among those

[winter tree]

Not very well
Its inefficient at best and extremely crew-intensive
And steel factories are pain.

[jolly flare]

^

[tawny ledge]

that's because the devs need to add depth that lets people go all in

[rough flint]

i can't think of any depth beyond what i just said, so i would like to know what is envisioned

[winter tree]

Mining laser upgrade that pulls all resources mined to the block it was on that you can then have crew put on a conveyor to be sorted into respective factories which then produce refined materials

Which are then shifted to another conveyor to storage

[rough flint]

that is not really depth? and is already possible?

and is what the "optimizing fir throughput of factory/storage" is in the first place

[tawny ledge]

there's not a whole lot to do with all that money, honestly, but there's more to it than plonk factory and wipe asteroid field off the map
you need to do things like scout out resource and electricity deposits, acquire the resources to set up manufacturing operations, hydroponic farms, acquiring item recipes and blueprints, and set up the entire chain to craft stuff like Fusion Igniters that cost so much you could practically buy a solar system with the money made from selling one
and then u need to find where you can sell it for the best return because 1% less demand means you get millions less

[unreal mesa]

will top speeds be halved? its another quite large discrepancy that can impact the combat experience

[tawny ledge]

perhaps some depth to manufacturing career gameplay would be to lock some factories behind renown or have some require crew, especially larger versions that manufacture ltos of stuff

[winter tree]

Its not really possible. Factory setups are extremely crew-intensive, storages fill up extremely fast and honestly dont hold all that much, and automating it is extremely hard.

[tawny ledge]

no, because part of the point of this is to make combat slower and keep system travel the same

[winter tree]

Yeah

[rough flint]

ig i have much more crew knowledge than the avg player so they wouldn't realize this, so a more direct way to show it?

[unreal mesa]

but having double the top speed in combat most definitely does not keep the combat slower

[winter tree]

Later factories that have a 1.5 steel or 2 steel/iron

[tawny ledge]

however, being able to gain renown through noncombat stuff would also be good so you could theoretically reach max fame without firing a single shot at anything

[rough flint]

objectivr upgrade pieces are very bad design imo

[winter tree]

THIS

[tawny ledge]

of course it'd be unlikely because past a certain size kamikaze pirate will attack you

but it'd still work

[rough flint]

(you can already btw)

[tawny ledge]

as something like, again, NMS, or other base builders

[winter tree]

Only from sys exploration iirc (?)

[pseudo epoch]

@hollow breach suspect some of these ramping mechanics would do better with decreasing by square root of 2 instead of cut by 2.
Pulled this from comparing Vrms voltage and peak voltage formulas that made for a similar problem of timing stuff.

It might result in the same turn speed response while at 2x speed preview vs 1x speed current if the truster ramp is increased by x1.41 instead of 2x
As is, I turn slower by more than 2x, so this might be the formula you are looking for.
This might also be the way to help chainguns feel correct while still slowing the gameplay combat speed

[rough flint]

you can kill things without shooting

[winter tree]

https://tenor.com/view/shut-up-shush-shh-ok-bird-gif-17679708

[tawny ledge]

or, in short, it should be viable to play career as a management/logistics/manufacturing game first that has combat second
we can do a combat game with logistics second - thats basically what Cosmoteer is
the other way around would be very good

[winter tree]

Also random controversial opinion time

[pseudo epoch]

I think this formula would be needed on ramping stats because they are effected both over time and by time, thus 1.4x ends up giving a similar result as the pure half speed fire rates as simple weapons

[winter tree]

Sulphr --> Ammo ratio is too high

[rough flint]

almost all of the combat stuff *is* logistics :despair: i think i've been playing for so long that i can't see it as anything else

[rough flint]

true, but factories in general need rebalance imo

[unreal mesa]

diamond fac

[median burrow]

@median burrow

[winter tree]

Me when I have 24+ storages of ammo

[tawny ledge]

to reference it for like the 3rd time No Man's Sky has its issues but there is a lot of stuff you can do in its main gameplay mode
ground battles, space battles, explore derelict freighter dungeons, explore other worlds, et cetera, theres a lot of options

[winter tree]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1120960005286416397/1192137289648844961/the_yoinky_sploinky.gif

[tawny ledge]

???

[median burrow]

bookmark

[pseudo epoch]

looks like a bookmark

[winter tree]

Prob saving 4 later

[tawny ledge]

it is good, then, that we have many people that can voice their differing opinions

[rough flint]

maybe everyone just needs to play for 10 years ;)

[winter tree]

https://tenor.com/view/nuh-uh-phoenix-objection-gif-13895656858635204693

[tawny ledge]

i do not wish to insult, but honestly Air you play the game very differently from basically anyone
your viewpoint is interesting but it is the viewpoint of one and one alone

case in point: i spend like 5 minutes tops setting up my crew

you spend hours

[rough flint]

well yeah, there's no other way to make them the same quality

[winter tree]

I spend like
1-2 hours for my bigger BBs
But thats cause cosmo crashes at least once during

https://tenor.com/view/lmao-lol-laughing-laughing-emoji-gif-17983155

[tawny ledge]

and you know a lot of people spend 0 minutes setting up their crew because they just use redshirts

[rough flint]

true

[winter tree]

Tru

[rough flint]

but that is a learning process imo

learning to use crew well

[pseudo epoch]

500 hours of design, and I have still not finished my dreadnought...

all I can do is try to contribute the most helpful information I learn from this gameplay extreme point so devs can select and make use of it. same as any of us

[rough flint]

obviously it should be streamlined, but still a good part imo

[hollow breach]

I don't really want to say anything concrete, because only ideas have been thrown around and I don't want to even allude to anything that might create an expectation, but you can break down the problems that industry currently faces into relatively neat boxes:

The current state of industrial gameplay (in my view) is that non-combat ships basically have zero design thought or challenges. They don't face any constraints, because they have no need to be compact, durable, manoeuvrable, or pretty much anything else that combat necessitates. You can put down one of each factory - multiple if you want faster production, I guess - and some mining lasers / manipulator beams, but at that point you're done. Their layout doesn't matter, and they're all just single parts that each fulfil a different niche (and the only parts to fill that niche), so they become essentially required.
On top of all that, the entry cost to industry is enourmous, especially at the start of the game. There's no real 'progression' aside from the more expensive factories, either.

Sorry, this is a bit rambly (I am in a voice call, and talking+thinking+typing is a hard combo) and doesn't directly answer the question, but I hope it gives a bit of insight into how I reason about the industry-gameplay problem.

[winter tree]

I do that with classic bc it crashes if I try and bring up the menu

[tawny ledge]

in short, air, you are about as far as one could possibly get from the average cosmoteer player, you have a unique perspective, but you have effectively entirely different concerns and thoughts about what should be buffed/nerfed/given develoepr attention, and that must be recognized

[rough flint]

that is true - also the fact that it's almost always sped up so efficiency doesn't matter

[winter tree]

Efficiency does matter though...?

[rough flint]

it just means less time at 5000x speed - and it's already at max speed anyways

[winter tree]

With 2,000+ iron to process you absolutely need a semblance of efficiency

[tawny ledge]

I attempt to build at a built-in level so i am also not the average cosmoteer player, but i am a bit closer to it, and one thing i very much want is diversity of action in Career to distinguish it more substantially from Battle Helper fights

[rough flint]

?? i think most people would just set it to tthe fastest speed possible and go afk

[tawny ledge]

8x speed
go make lunch
oh look done

[jolly flare]

my only take on the iron thing is the iron to steel ratio feels a little low but that could just be me

[winter tree]

Iron-steel ratio is absolutely low at 1-1, and its just straight up better to hunt graveyards

[rough flint]

my biggest problem w/ non-combat is that it feels like a chore that should be done, and is almost always sped up beyond first impressions to make it waste less time because it is uninteresting

[tawny ledge]

so let us find a way to make it interesting

[unreal mesa]

the only reason to speed up noncombt is because its boring lol

[winter tree]

^^^

[unreal mesa]

dynamic economy, more noncombat missions, etc would help with this probably

[tawny ledge]

maybe u piss off a faction good enough and they try to sabotage u

[rough flint]

i don't think that fixes the max speed chore part

[tawny ledge]

not attack but if u are close enough to a station a crew will start a fire or explode something or steal a valuable resource and then go to the station and leave your crew

[rough flint]

maybe setting up is interesting, but actualky doing it is boring again

[unreal mesa]

with dynamic economy and noncombat missions you would have to at least react to stimuli. its not like combat based gameplay isnt vast stretches of traversal at 8x speed interposed between combat

[rough flint]

true

[unreal mesa]

thats not inherently a bad thing

[rough flint]

imo combat should be less traversal as well but that is a different discussion

[unreal mesa]

traversal will be fine when exploration is fleshed out in c2.0

hopefully ig

[tawny ledge]

would require paying attention instead of just 8x speed because you would need to order counterplay or stay far from stations (and thus vulnerable to attack) to prevent it from happening
and it could happen if ur just not friendly with a faction, since something like Mono (in fact especially monolith) would feel threatened by your rising industrial empire but would not directly attack a civilian business

[rough flint]

that just turns it from "8x chore" to "8x chore but now i can't be afk" :agony:

[hollow breach]

@thick anchor

[unreal mesa]

i think sabotage is just a bit on the nose but things like trade missions, hauling ops, high risk mining, etc that could even interpose noncombat gameplay like traversal and hauling, mining with the risk (and gameplay) of combat

[winter tree]

Yeah your still operating at max speed, but w/dynamic economy I would have an active role
Probably set up park in a system and mine while simultaneously moving your shipments of steel/coils/whatever to a profitable destination

And you would have to go into a lot of work to develop factory and mining setups, with factory upgrades requiring expansion, etc.

[tawny ledge]

one thing i have noticed in career is that i am getting way more gaseous nebulae storms than anything else like seriously i've been through three systems, including one system listed as cloud heavy, and i have seen one lil electron cloud and no ion storms at all

[tawny ledge]

high risk mining is a good one
I immediately think of things like how terraria makes hellstone turn into lava when mined or meteorite deal damage when you touch it without protection

[winter tree]

Hell
Shipbuilding missions

[rough flint]

so it is making a stock/shop simulator part of the game

[tawny ledge]

ye sure

[unreal mesa]

i never see ion storm

[rough flint]

it's not making trading/processing itself more interesting, just adding things outside the basic system to make interedt

i think that is good too

[tawny ledge]

here's one: volatile minerals that explode in large quantities, or if set on fire, something like that

[winter tree]

The trading/processing is interesting because of how its set up and how you have to manage it
In the end its just your crew doing it lol

[rough flint]

i was very confused on how you could make the trade/process method itself more interesting

[tawny ledge]

hard part would be getting that to work in a way that doesn't either have the game sort it out for you or piss off new players by making their freighters randomly explode

[rough flint]

because there is no interesting way to mine a rock the way you can kill a ship

[winter tree]

Having factories be more expansive and like
Able to work together better would help

[winter tree]

https://tenor.com/view/i-am-a-dwarf-and-im-digging-a-hole-diggy-diggy-hole-the-hobbit-dwarf-dwarves-gif-2230541820824145329

[tawny ledge]

superheated minerals too could also work as something obtained from asteroids only in ion storms or inside sun zone, and could start fires when brought aboard your ship, so you really need FEs and men to put out the fires

[rough flint]

i think that runs into the problem of "why would i ever use this when i have some other thing" - currently small/large weapons already have this issue and should be fixed imo

[tawny ledge]

make the rock shoot back at you

[rough flint]

true

[winter tree]

I mean straight up- cost.

[tawny ledge]

hey, what about comets, that would be fun

[winter tree]

And space

[rough flint]

space is not currently a concern in processing ships

[tawny ledge]

asteroids that actively fly around the system quite quickly and quite fast, dealing damage if they crash into things (just give em a damage radius)
now go mine something thats moving around at 90m/s

[winter tree]

Yeah, your bigger factories may be faster, more efficient, but they take more space and cost significantly more.

[winter tree]

Mass, then

[tawny ledge]

but they'd also have really, really good minerals or even entirely exclusive ones

this is kinda just turning into ideas lmao

[rough flint]

that just slows gameplay (not good if it's still uninteresting)

more time spent at 8x speed is not a respectful use of players' time

[winter tree]

Its fine
Bc you have a choice between a mobile base thats less efficient, or a central processing base thats more efficient

Which is what I would do

[rough flint]

?? why not just move the central one but at 1/2 the speed (2x time wasted)

[winter tree]

Because it would be less efficient then sending out multiple miners and shippers, and one station can only buy so much from you at once

[rough flint]

i don't see it would be less efficient beyond wasting more player time

[hot nymph]

this

[winter tree]

Less asteroids mined due to slower speed and only one thing
So its significantly more time-efficient

[hot nymph]

already takes enough time at 8x to fly around imo

[rough flint]

so it is just wasting time :despair:

[winter tree]

Or you either use the less efficient factories, or build smaller miners/shippers

[rough flint]

"either waste more time or have objectively worse choice" to autostic playerbase? that is a nondecision

[winter tree]

Either have less resources/ore or have a mobile facility
Thats the decision

[rough flint]

literally a nondecision

"either have bad choice or waste time"

[winter tree]

There are advantages to both, esp with dynamic economy

[rough flint]

mass is not a good way to balance objectively better factories because it just makes more time get wasted

[winter tree]

Mobile base can easily swap systems and set up base elsewhere, and is more centralized

Perm bases are better long-term, especially if they are your main base of ops.

[whole pumice]

Its has been said multiple times that this wont happen for good reason. You cab always nake a feedback post but it seems like its not that important after all since nobody did it so far.

[sullen summit]

usually if someone is going to make a post about pvp balance, it's going to be on behalf of the community which is hard bc that requires everyone agreeing on what needs to be brought up

[unreal mesa]

i have been collecting data for a big feedback post but the balance state of mrt fluctuates as a whole so im hesitant. probably gonna wait till everything gets ironed out

not much point making a balance post about a part that is not in its finalized state balance wise

esp with this thing ill just wait until it all blows over

when the dust settles type shii

[polar halo]

#ask-walt message
#ask-walt message

i'll just link these 2 things from walt, on the subject of career vs pvp balance

[whole pumice]

Im not talking balance suggestions. Just saying whats happening in the pvp world.

Im not talking balance suggestions. Just saying whats happening in the pvp world.

Bruh

[unreal mesa]

👍 gor it

all my balance takes always involve the interplay between pvp and career balance for what its worth. i dont make or form a suggestion without considering how it will affect the discrepancy in its performance between pvp and career

[blissful raven]

crew feels a bit slow, but overall i think this are nice balance changes, the battles are in deed longer and the fast path ways will now be needed for bigger ships.

[winter canyon]

so is there news on whether it'll be toggled?

[dry flower]

I am so glad, I was afraid it would break them!

[granite bay]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned it but prisms seem broken?

They dont be pointing where they’re supposed to

[remote wind]

Exceedingly unlikely

[tawny ledge]

I am experiencing this issue too, jsut got back from testing and hadar's ions didn't seen very interested in aiming at their targets

and on that note, the results of my testing:

• nukes are WAY harder to dodge now, if you are still when they are launched they are actually effectively impossible to dodge, even with 0 ramp up

• some orbiters (Raijin, Slipstream, Canopus were the ones i noticed, and Axlerod seems to function fine still) have broken and orbit beyond the range of their own weapons

• Augustus' AI glitched and kept moving away from where it wanted to go

• Small numbers of shields are noticeably weaker now (tested against Sprocket - 2 SS next to an MR used to be able to hold its DC off forever, now they die), but
• Mass LS seems noticeably stronger now, 4 DCs and 2 disruptors took an incredibly long time (over a minute on 8x speed) to get through hadar's 4 LS

It seems that because crew response times are worse but relative shield HP is better, shields are not really "regenerating" any more and more "a barrier that will resurrect itself after about 10 seconds"

I don't think this is good, honestly

Chainguns also now just feel like ions with different SFX that take a break every 30 seconds

the clearest example of LS being buffed: 4 LS can now hold 16 ions at bay forever at long range

when it comes to the actual "feel" of the game, it was unsurprisingly a bit odd and sluggish to start but I don't mind it

makes ships feel heavier and more powerful

Missile swarms are less impressively thick but are more energetic, works just as well imo and is perhaps a tad more realistic (though who cares about realism)

[hollow breach]

Theoretically, the crew should respond in double the time, but the shield should also take double the time to fail. Interesting to see that this is not the case

[tawny ledge]

I would recommend for nukes, to make dodging easier (and also i think it'll help with the "feel" of the game) that they spend more time aiming, and rotate a bit slower while doing so

[late mantle]

So... Let me get this straight, we buffed nukes, large shields and the drag coefficient?

I can't wait to get home now

[tawny ledge]

I did notice that an SS will not go down in one DC hit any more, but the DC, even at the new speed, fires faster than the shield regenerates

While i wasnt listening to the game soundtrack during this testing, I do remember always thinking that the game's combat soundtrack felt a little chill for how energetic some engagements could be

[hollow breach]

I like this idea. I think the increased speed of nukes is a good change because it makes them scarier. A longer lead up to them burning at you could bolster that feeling even more while actually making them weaker

[tawny ledge]

perhaps also make their acceleration more noticeable

[hollow breach]

Huh. Any theories as to why? Is it the DCs damage, or the shield/crew?

[tawny ledge]

as in, once the nuke finishes aiming, it starts the fast phase as normal, but a bit slower than they used to in exchange for accelerating more

that will accentuate the period where the nuke flies at you, make it a bit easier to dodge, and make it more terrifying

[late mantle]

It could also be made to wait longer before screaming toward you at the higher speed

[tawny ledge]

I suspect that it is the shield/crew
The ship i tested against Sprocket also had issues with its reactor redlining while powering 2 HL and 2 disruptors on top of the shields

I have also noticed that the health of internals has effectively increased as well

Deck cannons are actually kind of tanky components now - in aforementioned sprocket test the armour was destroyed but the deck cannon took a lot of damage without any issues

sadly i forgot to get footage of it

[tawny ledge]

worth noting, however, that the ship did have separate shield suppliers and weapon suppliers - issues here would be on the reactor or shield end, not the crew ignoring the shields

[hollow breach]

Redlining, huh? That's really interesting, I wonder why.

[tawny ledge]

Here's footage of a ship of mine vs Hadar which shows how large shields and ions have changed

notice in the 1st gif that i pause and select one of Hadar's prisms, you can see there that it's meant to point at another prism but is just ignoring that for no reason

[hollow breach]

That's really odd, too. As far as I know, none of these changes should affect the prism aiming

[polar halo]

btw imma just say that i personally prefer the animations and sfx on 1/2x speed, and i had this opinion even before i started seriously doing pvp. just a random opinion note from me

[hollow breach]

Our internal testing has been on a somewhat different branch (but still with the speed changes), and I haven't experienced any issues with ions there.

Either the scenario in which they break doesn't come up during normal career play, or there is a change in specifically the release preview that is causing the prism issue

[tawny ledge]

they could use a lil more weight but it is alright as is imo

[tawny ledge]

yea i was not testing this in career, this is in creative mode's battle helper

[polar halo]

what, prisms?

[hollow breach]

Is the prism issue consistently reproducible?

[polar halo]

ions definitely do not need a nerf

[tawny ledge]

even so, i don't see why that would change much, because to my knowledge the AI is the same in both career and battle helper

[tawny ledge]

I think so, and Concrete had the exact same issue (an ion in a core aiming forward instead of at the prism it was told to aim at) above my feedback

i can go get more footage/do more testing if needed

[hollow breach]

If you can get repro steps or a save game with the issue, that's probably best

[late mantle]

Does it refuse to turn even if you tell it to aim away, and then back?

[hollow breach]

I can't take a look until at least tomorrow, but I'm interested in learning the cause

[tawny ledge]

no, haven't tried that

i'll take some more looks at things

I did see the prism occassionally turning as if to turn back to its target, and then go back to shooting directly at the enemy

[balmy hatch]

unrelated to the speed change, but while testing I noticed that the fog of war was changed to be grid like and doesn't blend with explored terrain, not a huge fan because it doesn't look good

well it was grid like before but now it is obvious

[pseudo epoch]

I like scarier nukes as long as it doesnt make me ram my own nukes during a ramming speed charge. that feeling is really sad

[balmy hatch]

also were war crimes reimplemented or was that enemy crew my laser just shot down even if there wasn't anything behind them really unlucky?

from testing in the early game the fights are better and the rest of the game feels very chill, imo for career it's a great change

I'm not using shields or even encountered them yet, but I assume they will get fixed along with the rest of the part specific issues

[tawny ledge]

update: did more testing

It seems the thing with Sprocket and small shields was reactor limitations

I tested the same ship against it - with 2 HL and 2 disruptors firing, the shields would go down, without them, they wouldn't

i also tested against Gaze, a ship by saris with 2 SRs and shields extremely close to them - its performance was actually worse, which i'd chalk up to the weapons

[hard sierra]

Fascinating

[tawny ledge]

here's some gifs

[hard sierra]

MRTs will still be crazy good without reduced top speed

[tawny ledge]

in order:
showcase of how nuke dodges from a stand still are impossible even with no ramp-up
Auriga's prisms demonstrationg the prism bug - so yes it is reproducible
Gaze vs Sprocket - the fight has lasted for a long time, these were Sprocket's last few shots before running out of ammo
Sprocket v Noctis (my own ship), with weapons off and with weapons on - you can see that Noctis takes significantly more damage with its weapons online

[hard sierra]

Can someone pin the original message please

[tawny ledge]

it is pinned?

[hard sierra]

Can't find it

Unless mobile be bugging

[hard sierra]

Yup mobile be bugging

That's annoying

Can you link it pls

[tawny ledge]

#1278833485884162108 message

[tawny ledge]

in conclusion: small shields are not worse
Large shields are stronger tho

[hard sierra]

Thx

[brittle rapids]

no more pesky railgun dodges yay

[hard sierra]

Literally irrelevant to UL MRT ships

If anything it buffs them

Makes it way easier to pressure lethal overturning

[brittle rapids]

well from what i read it's basically double projectile speeds so i think that maybe emp can catch up to them

[tawny ledge]

it is basically double projectile speeds also chainguns fucking died

this will make UL ships significantly harder to pilot

additionally, since everything fires half as often, each super-nuke salvo will be more costly

admittedly LS being super durable also does not help

[hard sierra]

We will have to see

I have a bad feeling about this tho

[uneven citrus]

Woahh that's such an interesting potential rework!

[balmy hatch]

I feel like everyone is complaining about unintended stuff (like the shields and nukes) that will be easily fixed

[tawny ledge]

yea

it defs feels a lil odd since i'm used to the game being twice as fast but its not that bad

it makes everything feel heavier, like every shot matters

[balmy hatch]

overall I think the flow of the game has been greatly improved

also a bug with crew I've noticed is that sometimes they do a little backstep

not too important but it does look odd and slows them down just a little

[tawny ledge]

i can't believe it they're Michael Jackson now

[hard sierra]

I'm just worried this is buffing MRT even more

[uneven citrus]

Wait a second, if combat speeds been effectively halved, would this make 1/8 speed effectively 1/16?

I think this craves a 16x speed booster.

[tawny ledge]

people generally don't use 8x speed for combat

[uneven citrus]

I guess so.

[brittle rapids]

wait was ls hp nerfed or is it the same? ik weapons got their firerate (cg and ions got a damage reduction instead) reduced so this would be a big buff to ls and i don't think that's great

well a buff against everything but rails and nukes atleast

[tawny ledge]

yea its a massive LS buff

u can block 16 ions with 4 LS

[rotund helm]

Crew speed and power generation were also halved (battery charge time still not), so it shouldn't be a issue after fixes I guess? At least LS buff is not intended.

[sullen summit]

LS have 2x the health pool

but if u halve their hp then rails hard counter shields

[tawny ledge]

so fixes that i think will happen:

• LS health will be decreased
• Nukes will be rebalanced to probably have a longer aiming phase and maybe other things
• Chainguns will be unfucked

[sullen summit]

LS health should NOT be decreased unless you change rails to their normal fire rate and half damage..

and then u need to halve ammo and power consumption also..

[tawny ledge]

and this is why balancing is hard

[brittle rapids]

rails already punch through ls like it's nothing if you have enough of them and half ls hp would just make the 4ls bar even lower

[tawny ledge]

give railguns a hidden damage reduction against shields

[pastel moon]

reactor charge times

its that most likely

as seen by testing yesterday

[sullen summit]

okay 2 LS and 1 SS can tank 6 rails with 5 accel indefinitely

it's not specifically the charge times

[pastel moon]

curious

[brittle rapids]

but 4ls can't tank 10rails 6accel (what i usually run)

[tawny ledge]

testing today seemed to indicate that it wasn't reactor charge times

[tawny ledge]

2 SS and 2 SR performed basically the same compared to 2 SS and 1 MR

[brittle rapids]

but ye

[sullen summit]

math gets weird bc of penetration

[uneven citrus]

Even longer aiming phase for nukes? As if they're not the easiest thing to dodge.

Also did ions and ML get their damage halved to synergize with halved fire rates of everything?

How about TB, what happened to it? Halved ramp-up is a colossal TB buff.

[brittle rapids]

wouldn't that only matter past 26-30+ accels

[tawny ledge]

Nukes are much harder to dodge now

[brittle rapids]

or against armor

[tawny ledge]

by "much harder" i mean "almost entirely impossible from a standing start regardless of ramp-up time"

[uneven citrus]

Wasn't it super hard to dodge nukes with standing start already?

Also damn, that's small thrusters right?

*medium

[pastel moon]

i made a mod that halves their responsiveness if you want to test it like that instead of hopping between preview and normal

[tawny ledge]

i have done other testing w/ pvp avoider and same thing applies there i got bodied and often got clipped even when i was moving before the nukes fired

[tawny ledge]

those are small thrusters connected to ERs

[pastel moon]

dang

[tawny ledge]

no, not really

[uneven citrus]

Ah.

Even worse so.

[tawny ledge]

ST ramp-up didn't get affected (because it's 0) so that is entirely a result of the acceleration change

[uneven citrus]

Oh right, acceleration change.

[tawny ledge]

they're basically super nukes

[uneven citrus]

And with larger thrusters it'd be IMPOSSIBLE+

Unless you're already moving at a ludicrous speed.

[tawny ledge]

yea i tried dodging Alexander with a DNA from a standing start

[uneven citrus]

dna?

[tawny ledge]

the entire frontal armour plate was destroyed

[tawny ledge]

diagonal nuke avoider

[sullen summit]

kinda like that abbreviation lol

someone should paint a DNA like dna

[pastel moon]

clearly the solution is 4x speed double drag :clueless:

[tawny ledge]

this thing is quite good when it comes to strafe and while it can still easily beat alexander it is extremely difficult to dodge its salvo head-on

[pastel moon]

i like the current drag being more spread out instead of quickly piling up at extremes

[sullen summit]

no bc half charged shield only has half pen resist

[pastel moon]

you arent always at 100m/s+

[tawny ledge]

it is literally impossible from a standing start and i got clipped even when dodging with momentum

[pastel moon]

but yeah everything else

boo womp

[tawny ledge]

i also suggested nukes could have more extreme acceleration so there's a lil more of a gradual change between aiming and thrusting

which would be terrifying and give u lots of time to see a nuke going very fast towards your face while still being fair to dodge

[balmy hatch]

I think what needs to happen is nukes getting their speed halved

[tawny ledge]

as in they have a lower base speed but more acceleration so they'll move slower than normal while approaching and then faster after going past you

[brittle rapids]

ohhh makes sense (this also does give me ideas for railsetups)

[balmy hatch]

So I think what will happen is:

Nukes will have their speed halved

Missiles will have their speed reduced (not as much as nukes)

Reactor charge times will get fixed

Chainguns and TB will get fixed

[pastel moon]

the power numbers feel very disinflated now

saddening

large reactor with only 6 power per second

[tawny ledge]

i don't mind missile speed at the moment honestly

[pastel moon]

mod firing times changes gonna be a struggle

[tawny ledge]

combined with the firerate missileboats' clouds of missiles are much more sparse but also much faster-moving and aggressive

[balmy hatch]

Since they are essentially mini ships the same rules should apply to them

The reason why nukes got op is that they require dodging, but only ships got slowed down

If both got slowed down the same amount nothing should change

[pastel moon]

keep current nukes and nerf damage could be cool i would want that
more facetanking and more careering

well tweak a bit so they are atleast actually dodgeable

but wish they hit more

[tawny ledge]

if nukes have more aiming but same max speed then they'll be better at long ranges

[pastel moon]

add random spread clearly

[tawny ledge]

do not

[tame magnet]

Considering that Chaingun is going to have its damage halved and its ammo consumpion halved but not its fire rate, I think that Ion Beam and Mining Lasers should have their damage halved but not their fire rate. It would feel quite weird a beam/lasers that only has 5 ticks per second...

[tawny ledge]

that... is what happened

also, the chaingun has been totally fucked by this lmao

[thick anchor]

@vocal portal

[jolly flare]

This sounds really funny if its an absurd angle

The nuke locking onto the target then just flying far left sounds funnier than it should

[timber folio]

Idk about this change

[lucid mist]

it really seems like a career focused change that pvp players just have to kinda deal with

which sucks and makes me not want to play this game anymore

[timber folio]

Yeah I dont like the sound of this all thatuch

[pastel moon]

once the kinks are worked out it would just be playing in 1/2 speed but the relative speed cap is doubled

career related activities would be faster

aka "if its fixed it would be pretty much the same"

i hope we get more testing. i'd be down for something middle-ground like 1.5x instead of 2x changes

[cloud plume]

Yeah. Honestly I don’t think this change is any good. It just messes things up that weren’t broken, and again, if combat really is to fast for some people they can just halve the game speed using the dedicated tool for it that’s right there at the top of the screen at all times.

[pastel moon]

i still hope theres some way to implement these in a way that would not break existing things

resourecs can have different carryspeed did you know

bit messy

[cloud plume]

Oh god really?

[pastel moon]

it affects in-flight carry speed and i fear it may lead to crew suffocating so i never did it

[tacit knot]

Sniff the hyperium

[pastel moon]

yeah i did that for the mod

[tacit knot]

omg hypercrack reference??

[winter tree]

except anything with logistics or factory work

which are still uber-fucked

[tawny ledge]

what jani said, basically

people are conflating "this is what the preview looks like" with "this is what it will be"

Nukes, LS, CGs, and potentially also HE and EMP will be fixed

[pastel moon]

i hope this is not what it will be
maybe stuff could happen alongside already drastic balance changes

[brittle rapids]

well from what i've played it just felt faster

not much changed piloting wise though

[tawny ledge]

honestly, i don't think Walt would ever actually not fix the issues with this

Walt is definitely concerned with making each weapon feel unique, and this preview has accidentally gutted chainguns and now they're not unique

[hollow breach]

If we were intending to leave everything as-is, it wouldn't be a preview 🙂

We did a fair amount of internal testing, and caught a lot of issues, but there's no finer a comb for issues than the community

[thick anchor]

Yeah the change is to better the experience of career players, while not touching competitive (other than having the default be 1x instead of 0.5x for effects). So competitive players having issues with it was exactly what the preview was for, finding ways that it accidentally affected competitive.

This change is not supposed to affect balance at all

[hard sierra]

If you have no rampup then your just dead no matter what who cares, buy it makes it even more trivial for UL ships with full rampup to just ignore them if you make it's aiming phase worse

[hard sierra]

What the hell??? It was 13.5 before???

[pastel moon]

i wrongly remembered

should be half of that

[hard sierra]

6.725?

[tender zinc]

6.75

[cloud plume]

So far it only made it worse imo. If it’s not broken, why try to fix it?

[hard sierra]

I feel like it buffs MRT

Buffing an already bad meta doesn't seem ideal

But then ig this game is career focused

[thick anchor]

agreed. If MRT's are buffs then we have to fix that

[thick anchor]

https://tenor.com/view/the-big-lebowski-opinion-gif-25791527

[cloud plume]

That’s not really an answer. What was wrong with the game before that you had to do this?

[thick anchor]

We felt that new career players playing at 1x speed (the perceived default) was not ideal as it was too fast, and the fact that competitive play was also at 0.5x further emphasized the issue

So in that regard it felt "broken", but the goal is to fix that without causing any problems.

[cloud plume]

Ok. So… what exactly stops a player from just switching to 0.5 speed during combat?

[thick anchor]

among other things that are fixed by the change, like 1x in coop career

[hard sierra]

From what I've read, doubling rampup but not changing speed directly buffs MRT, as they ignore rampup in PvP anyway by just running until fully ramped up, and then fighting. And because rampup is halved, you would easily be able to get the enemy to overturn, with no way of getting their thrust ramped up leading to you being able to get behind them and win

Which leads to people having to counter pick to have a chance

[balmy hatch]

Career's flow was greatly improved

[cloud plume]

I mean, I disagree. It was made slower.

[hard sierra]

Which isn't fun

[balmy hatch]

It's genuinely better

[cloud plume]

Again, disagree.

[balmy hatch]

And imo it's better for experienced players to have to change speed instead of new players

[hollow breach]

It was only released like 14 hours ago

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I do think that you don't have enough experience with it to be reasonably making such a strong statement

[hollow breach]

To answer this, it's not about whether a player can slow the game down, it's about what a new player will do. It's more than just raw functionality - it's a matter of intention, design, and player psychology. New players don't know they should slow the game down, and newer players are typically psychologically averse to non-default options, because default options express the intended gameplay experience

[cloud plume]

Honestly I played for maybe 2 hours before reverting to the normal version. It just wasn’t as fun.

[hollow breach]

Also this maintains travel speed while still slowing the game down. It's not the same as playing on half speed.

[cloud plume]

Can we at least get 16x speed then?

[hollow breach]

Conversely, four of us on the development team have played a variant of the preview for tens of hours at 1x speed and thoroughly enjoyed it

[balmy hatch]

I enjoyed it a lot too

I'm a casual player and since most players are too I think the majority of people will enjoy it

Casual players don't talk a lot about balance and so the sweats' voices get a lot louder

[hollow breach]

What aspect of career do you feel needs to be at 16x speed?

[cloud plume]

If you’re slowing the game down, why not give us the option to speed it up again?

We don’t need anything, but I don’t think anyone would complain if they had the option.

[balmy hatch]

Isn't there a mod for that?

[hollow breach]

They would if it causes performance issues 😅

I can't personally answer the first part of your message, though

[balmy hatch]

Also the only part of the game that was slowed down was the fighting

[cloud plume]

Performance issues are always an issue. If someone is playing on a lower tier PC or a laptop no one’s forcing them to use it.

[balmy hatch]

If you were previously fighting on 8x I'm impressed

[hollow breach]

Travel time wasn't doubled, though

I believe the travel is actually faster than it was, relatively speaking

[balmy hatch]

I think acceleration being halved feels way better too

[cloud plume]

It’s not. Nothing has been made faster, combat has slowed down.

[balmy hatch]

Also it's gonna make races more interesting

[dry flower]

I am of the opinion that unlike triple A games an indie should definitively care about peoples that does not have the budget to buy a high grade PC.

[balmy hatch]

"relatively speaking"

[cloud plume]

Objectively speed hasn’t changed. Relatively speaking you could slow down weapons to 1% and claim the game is running on super speed, but in reality nothing has changed.

[dry flower]

...I nevermind, sorry, I forgot top speed was unchanged 😓
Top speed being unchanged is one of the best features of the preview imo

[cloud plume]

Again, it’s an optional feature. No one has to use it.

[hollow breach]

I agree! Travel times have felt really nice in my experience

[balmy hatch]

Except people will use it and then complain about performance

[dry flower]

What's an optional feature? The fundamental changes to the physics?

[cloud plume]

???

It’s the same as x8 speed, but doubled. Wdym changing physics?

[unreal mesa]

just dont update xd

[dry flower]

It was halved as far as I know

[hollow breach]

I mean all this said, you could just double the rules tick rate if you want it faster

[cloud plume]

Oh, I won’t. But I still disagree with the changes made.

[hollow breach]

I've personally not run into a scenario in career where I've thought "man, I really wish this could go 2x faster than the max speed"

Actually, I think we've rarely even gone up to 4x, let alone 8x

Mostly just for construction

[balmy hatch]

I only did so because my starter only had two small thrusters and when salvaging after a large battle with resources being spread out a lot

[dry flower]

I mean, that wouldn't be hard to revert the thruster rampup and crew speed with mods innit
As far as I know every stats mentionned in the patchnote are accessible with a bit of coding and a lot of determination

[hollow breach]

Yeah, I think most of this patch could be reverted via rules changes if someone feels that strongly about it

[balmy hatch]

And that could be solved by manip beams

[hollow breach]

Crew actions are very slow, that's definitely fair haha

[balmy hatch]

I think this is something like minecraft's 1.9 pvp change

Tho I feel like this doesn't divide the pvp community as much

[dry flower]

It's too small for that

[balmy hatch]

Yeah

[hollow breach]

I'd expect that aside from the projectile speed changes (which sound broadly welcomed?), this shouldn't really affect PVP

(once the broken things are fixed)

[brittle rapids]

classic to modern will remain the closest thing we ever got to that

[dry flower]

I would love to use cannons kite again

yes

[hollow breach]

The funny thing about that is that two of us have been using chainguns in our career save and we haven't noticed the damage differences

[balmy hatch]

Might be the way you use them

[hollow breach]

I've been an ion gal ¯_(ツ)_/¯

Love me some beams

[brittle rapids]

speaking of which i need to go see how the railgun velocities changed

[balmy hatch]

Since from what I've heard the burst damage is changed, so if they used it differently then they couldn't notice

[balmy hatch]

They stayed the same but I've heard someone talk about halving the speed, which makes sense I think

Since now they would be twice as fast relatively

Which is a lot

[brittle rapids]

well current formation is this and it fixes itself (up to 26accel) near the end, i'm just wondering if that'll come faster

yeah it did just that

more uniform patterns

only 4 major groups instead of like 8

peaks are 6 and 22 whereas before it was 2, 8, 17, 23-26

[thick anchor]

I think the difference is in the ramp up. The damage per shot is halved, but for old 0.5x users now playing on 1x, the ramp up has doubled. What I don't understand though is if the chaingun ramps up to full speed 2x faster than before, it should be strong than it was, not weaker.

[hollow breach]

#1278833485884162108 message

suspect max ramp is firing at half the speed it should be

[thick anchor]

hmmmm, maybe because of the halved physics step

[hollow breach]

I haven't had a look at it myself, but Rekyu's analysis of the issue seems promising

[thick anchor]

cuse max ramp is unchanged

[near whale]

acceleration is halved

Ok tried what sounded a good experiment but top speed unchanged and acceleration halved makes ships that are just about to accelerate feel like sitting ducks, ships already at speed have huge advantage.

Top speed unchanged also makes sips less maneuverable but zipping about at the same speed, crashing into things even more likely.

[pastel moon]

probably that yeah

[winter tree]

I have

its called construction and logistics

and logistics is the thing that is really screwed by this

[whole pumice]

Ive played a few games now and I honestly cant support this change. Playing at 1/2 speed is horrible because of the slow rampup which already was bad at regular speeds. So you are almost forced to play at 1x.
But this game honestly doesnt seem to be made for such high speeds. The input delay and frame drops I was getting were crazy and really unfun to deal with. This already was a big issue at 1/2x and this update would make those effects a lot worse.
This effectively nerfs fast ships a bit but in the worst way possible.
I think playing at 1x might be cool. It didnt feel horrible and requiring fast reactions for fast ship seems fair. But I think the technical limitations would make the change a really bad one for elimination.

[vocal portal]

This was a deliberate change because I felt that the fog looked too much like clouds. Thanks for the feedback though, I welcome ideas for how to change it. (Please use #1019739575683399840 though because this thread is loooooooooong.)

[pastel moon]

So you are almost forced to play at 1x.
that was kinda the point? supposed to halve the normal speed of the combat gameplay

hmmm interesting

[whole pumice]

Im not saying that it wasnt the point

[pastel moon]

true

[whole pumice]

I think mentioning that you cant just play at 1/2 to avoid all changes is useful

[uneven citrus]

I think the point of this entire change was to force people to play 1x

[whole pumice]

The next person

[uneven citrus]

And if it made the experience on 1/2 hard for you, then it has succeeded in doing so.

[uneven citrus]

Yah did you really expect a different response?

[whole pumice]

Yes I expected people to respond to my argument instead of restating things that have already been said.

[unreal mesa]

lmao

the issue with posting long, thought out feedback is that people will inevitably read the first sentence them get bored and stop and then disagree with what they assume the argument actually said

[uneven citrus]

Lmao

I find it annoying how you think I would do that.

I read the entire thing but didn't feel like bringing up the last sentence because it's obviously true 1x feels intutiive because the system is now adapted to 1x, need I add more to this?

[unreal mesa]

i think this update also does make fast ships better since the speed difference is doubled while ranges are left the same

and fast ships will generally be at their top speed more often too as prt of the gameplan so it being practically doubled makes them a lot better

[vocal portal]

speed difference between what?

[unreal mesa]

speed difference between ships

[vocal portal]

it hasn't been doubled though?

[unreal mesa]

pracitcally it has been since all other things like turning, accel, and ramp have been halved

bar proj speed

[vocal portal]

the difference between top speed and turning/accel/ramp has been doubled, yes, but all those values should stay relatively the same between different ships

[unreal mesa]

i suspect that if i run fast orbiters in career enemies will simply be unable to land hits on me whatsoever

even less than they used to be able to

[pastel moon]

hmmm

[vocal portal]

why? because they can't turn or accelerate fast enough?

[unreal mesa]

yes

[remote wind]

That's already been the case, I've orbited with avoiders, the difference is negligible

[pastel moon]

maybe what they're saying is, since the game changed "to be about one half speed" but the top velocity of ships are to be the same, compared to previous it would mean about twice speed relative to all actions you can do?

[unreal mesa]

true, but it will be far easier

[unreal mesa]

yes

[woeful swift]

What if we just remove everything that does damage

no more problem!

/j ofc

[whole pumice]

No more reactors

[vocal portal]

yes, i understand, i was just trying to clarify what exactly was meant by "speed difference", which by itself is a very ambiguous term

[woeful swift]

a potential solution for the crew being less efficient with non combat procedures could be being able to carry 2x the resources besides power and ammo

[pastel moon]

exept ammo

[rough flint]

i don't think this will actually help - let's say classic speeds were 1x (we want the actual speed to be 0.5, so classic got 1/2 speed), classic -> modern became 2x because almost every speed was doubled (so it is now 2x as fast as classic), and now it has gone back to 1x speed, so mp should still be at 1/2 speed to keep it at 0.5 like classic

[pastel moon]

ehhhh not sure

[stoic mauve]

Space cat hates anything over 40 M/s and he thinks the update makes fast ships better

Which is funny

[vocal portal]

What?? IIRC there was no major game speed changing going from Classic to Modern.

[rough flint]

all the projectile speed changes, thrust power changes, etc from the rebalance mod

practically doubled, or at least 1.5x, everything

[pastel moon]

dang

[unreal mesa]

would affect combat factory setups but shouldnt be too impactful anyways since ammo type facs all take very little ore as is

[rough flint]

so personally i think that this should be applied again in order to make pvp at 1x feel like old pvp at 1/2x

(but probably with damage halving instead of fire rate halving so it doesn't look visually strange)

[vocal portal]

so you want new 1x to feel like old 1/4?

[remote wind]

The rebalance mod was not so agressive as to completely revamp the game. It made higher speeds more accessible and projectile speeds higher, certainly, but did not across the board increase the speed of everything by 1.5x

[vocal portal]

also IIRC it didn't coincide with the Modern release, did it?

[remote wind]

I think it was implemented sometime during the beta, the most noteworthy artifact in my mind is Door's Alexander requiring a rebuild to deal with the current nuke behavior

[vocal portal]

ah

[remote wind]

Past that though it probably slowed down more ships than not due to drag changes anyway

[rough flint]

projectile speeds were almots all doubled and thrust was also doubled (more like speed 1.5x for most ships due to drag, and closer to 2x speed for lower thrust force ships)

i have realized my mistake, not halve damage/fire rate, i would like projectile speed/ship speed halved again

[remote wind]

Walt made quite a few tinkerings and it was not a perfect copy of what the mod changed. The mod also had flaws that Walt also patched

[rough flint]

i think slower movement/ship speed, even all else being the same, is better, because it makes lag/reaction speed have less of an impact

[uneven citrus]

This comment of mine is dedicated to Old Alexander.

RIP in pieces 🥹

[pastel moon]

so thats how it looked like

[uneven citrus]

mhm

[rough flint]

and it's not like that makes it unplayable - ships will still be able to dodge the same shots that they were previously able to dodge, and damage distribtuion though piloting would be the same

[uneven citrus]

I think it looks 10x better visually.

[pastel moon]

disagree tbh i like the maw

[rough flint]

nukes were supposed to turn until the target prediction thought i could hit and then instantly prime, not be time based

that was the original intention of the mod, but i couldn't get it to work

i liked that theoretical implementation because it would allow front torpedo style nukes to just shoot instantly, and also made standing right in front of the launcher harder to dodge (and this is a good tradeoff because now the launcher is more vulnerable)

[pastel moon]

i wonder what will happen moving foward

[near whale]

Overall i think 1/2 speed now is better then this experiments 1x speed
Fast ships top speed but many other things slowed down just does not blend well.

Ps.: wonder if the 3/4 speed option is easy to implement
many ppl think that there should be something between 1x and 1/2
Since votes for 1x and 1/2 are almost equal (at least last time i looked) maybe most ppl would choose 3/4 speed.

[vocal portal]

I just looked into this, and it's because you have an artificial resource limit of 120 set for steel. Clearing it solves the problem.

[woeful swift]

yeah and if anything it would encourage combat factories instead of ammo, and i think that would be a positive change

[thick anchor]

Do you happen to have the save where you tested damage on shields?

hmm, I'm not finding this in my testing. I time 0.5x on old system, and 1x on preview system, and the ships are hitting max speed at the exact same IRL time.

Good find, thank you

I suspect that's cuasing a lot of weird issues

[median burrow]

did fire get changed too

[thick anchor]

yeah

Fire tick rate halved

[pastel moon]

so sad that even/round/nice looking numbers are gone

no more 1.75

accidentally loading my mod playthrough on preview
oh no

[pseudo epoch]

I am not seeing the thrusters issues anymore either, suspect my thruster observations yesterday had observation error. ran fresh tests just now from stop to full speed and full speed 180 spin to full speed at both 0.5x current 1x preview and 1xcurrent 2x preview. If there is a difference, it is small enough to not matter, exactly as this patch intends.
For max grid size ships, thruster acceleration looks good.

[thick anchor]

Nice! thanks a lot for double checking

[pastel moon]

nvm

now i want to see that

[thick anchor]

So far I've confirmed errors in and fixed chainguns, crew animations, crew grab battery rates, and tractor beam energy costs
Still unsure if there's an issue with shields
and I'm looking at what to do about the missiles, but they are harder to deal with because of the new discrepancy between maneuverability and max speed compared to what it was before

I think the shield issue was just the battery grab rates

[pseudo epoch]

❤️ no worries. I am happy to see my 500+ hour designed ship doesnt need another overhaul from the changes.
can run a few other tests for chainguns to make sure those function correctly if you need. Those guns are the basis of my ship, and have a lot of previous tests ran similar to my current vs preview gif difference I posted yesterday

[pastel moon]

shield issue seems to have been related to battery rates yeah

[pseudo epoch]

oooooh chaingun fix already out? or need to wait to test?

[thick anchor]

not out, fixed locally lmao

[pseudo epoch]

let me know when, will be happy to run several tests. I love watching those 2 ships having a barrel shootout

[pastel moon]

what was fixed?

quick mod go immediatelly

[pseudo epoch]

The chaingun part was so huge I couldnt tell what impact happened to shields

oh I actually can test my shields...

[thick anchor]

I think the issue was that it was shooting faster than the physics tick rate, so I just undid the damage/ammo stuff I did and made it shoot at half the rate

[pseudo epoch]

going to do that

[thick anchor]

you might notice them filling faster/feeling stronger because crew grab batteries faster

[pseudo epoch]

OMG that makes so much sense

[thick anchor]

yeah, I had also forgotten to upgrade the ramp up time. So as a result they had higher DPS than before until ramped up, and then lower because I think bullets were getting eaten by the tick rate

[pseudo epoch]

will be an interesting test. my ship should be hitting task limit, and the shields are recharged using a barracks

[pastel moon]

couldn't the task limit be increased since the other things would improve peformance

maybe

[pseudo epoch]

I was pretty sure it was an engine limitation rather than a setting when I was asking Walt about it

120 orders per tick

[pastel moon]

curious

reduced tick speed makes beams so much snappy now

[thick anchor]

uh oh

[pastel moon]

beam mediaeffect interpolation.... hmmm

[weary wren]

It’s been a while since I’ve played Cosmo, how do I set/clear resource limits? I ask because it doesn’t seem immediately intuitive to me and thus I figure other players might struggle with it too. 🙂👍

I wouldn’t have guessed I set a resource limit at a glance

And I figure it’s good feedback! 🙂👍

[vocal portal]

right-click on the pick axe icon

[pseudo epoch]

Finally found a version of my ship that had a working shield design for testing shield recharge
Pure shield test
Current shields only 1x takes roughly 21 seconds to bisect ship on average with less than a second variance
Preview shields only 2x takes roughly 23 seconds to bisect ship on average with a second variance
Variance on higher times increase more due to how close this setup is to perma damage absorption rather than something caused by preview

Task limit version firing all weapons at the same time as shield recharging
Current 1x takes roughly 16 seconds to bisect ship on average with less than a second variance
Preview 2x takes roughly 17 seconds to bisect ship on average with less than a second variance

Shields are definitely being resupplied faster in all conditions on preview based on this

[weary wren]

Ok thank you Walt! Sorry for feedback in the wrong channel, but I hope it helps! 😁👍

[pseudo epoch]

see above for test. tests were ran from a loaded save file for the exact same start conditions each setup.
Task limit seems to have no significant impact difference relative to before.
Suspect the battery charge speed alone is all that would be needed for that amount of consistant results

[thick anchor]

well that's great news

[pseudo epoch]

indeed... Holy god task limit hit my shields harder than I thought lol....

There is a condition I question if would be impacted by the combat speed changes though

When you have priority differences and routing the lower priority through the shields

I am not 100% sure that would be uneffected. its something that would only impact high design skill ships though

I dont have a ship to test that sadly. Cant remember if Saris had a ship that did that

only other remaining shield test I can think of would be comparing recharge instead of refill from empty. I would expect it to work without issue, but there may be small impacts

was fun tests, should be all I can contribute for now.
Good luck devs ❤️

[pastel moon]

try going into your data/ships/reactors folder and changing this to double

PickUpRate = 1000 / 1
PickUpRate = 1000 / 2

[tawny ledge]

The save had exactly nothing on it it was totally empty
These are the two ships of mine that were used against built-ins Sprocket and Hadar (the 3rd gif is Sprocket vs Gaze)
so u can just take these and use the battle helper

[thick anchor]

ty

[near herald]

Played for a few hours and tested the new preview with a friend. Most of the changes are certainly not a problem. The (relatively) slower spool up time for thrusters, especially when paired with projectile speed remaining the same is a sticking point though. It makes even your fast ships feel very sluggish to maneuver (or even just brake when you're just stopping somewhere). Definitely feels unpleasant but not sure how it'd be addressed.

[vocal portal]

What if ships could increase their drag at-will, so that it's easier to stop than accelerate?

[near herald]

That would potentially solve one part of it yeah.

I suppose a lot of this is like, heavily dependent on whether you've played the game before. To someone starting right now it'd not make a difference. To someone with a lot of play time, it feels like, you know those dreams where you try to run from something but you move unnaturally slowly? It felt like that when a pirate ambushed us from a nebula and I just sat there turning while it fired off half a dozen volleys.

[pastel moon]

i'm worried of what this implies

new drag active part? cool
anti-thrust ramp up? mmaybe
magic drag? fear

thinking

[near herald]

I mean the game was never 100% realistic to start with, so a little magic to enhance the feel of gameplay is fine I think

[sullen summit]

magic thrust needs magic drag

then we need magic lift and magic weight

[polar halo]

thrust reversers could be a good idea

an attachment you can add to the rear of an engine, allowing it to operate in reverse at reduced power (like 80% of normal? dunno), without losing any rampup, but also shifting to reverse over time (shorter than ramping up by a decent amount, but still enough to be felt)

[eager elbow]

Lmao how did an airplane end up here

[jaunty surge]

sounds somewhat similar to an idea I had where a thruster would get more thrust when moving in any direction but forwards

[jaunty surge]

space airbreaks? spacebreaks?

[pseudo epoch]

While that would confirm for sure if the only difference is the shields, I shouldnt perform tests that involve directly changing the code.
I am an unpaid player aiding with testing preview client viability and currently have ongoing mental health issues. I wouldnt want all of the testing done by somebody else with that description.

I am happy to test parts of the game I care about to ensure they function correctly without harming my experience in the future. it just happens this can also help others

Thanks for pointing that out though 😄

[hollow breach]

It's on my list to look into at some point 😭

[tawny ledge]

yea the lowered render rate or whatever is really noticeable in this preview

Ions are the most noticeable but practically any weapon stutters

i have also seen lights behaving oddly

[timber folio]

I'm liking this idea less and less ngl

If it is implemented as a career feature, I feel as if it should be a toggleable option set to off by default

[balmy hatch]

this is too major to be a setting imo

also I still don't see what the issue with it is

[cloud plume]

I don’t think having a variable movement and fire rate value is something that should be considered as „too major to be a setting“.

I mean, damage itself is changeable. Just give us a „combat speed“ setting that adds another multiplier to them.

[echo escarp]

yuck

that just ruins super precise physics interactions

[pastel moon]

makes sense

[glacial jetty]

Ok, finally got to test the build.

I hate it. The fights drag on so much. For micro intensive ships, like avoiders, it's really tiring to fight blocks of armor with effectively halved dps. Include nuke into the mix and you can't even play in x2 to compensate.

(i'm talking from a career standpoint)

If you want to improve pvp, you sadly have to go the starcraft II route and have differences between career and pvp modes.

[pastel moon]

nah

(doesn't elaborate)

[balmy hatch]

I feel like fights are way easier to follow

if you want to pay attention at a slower setting you have to wait for the projectiles to slowly approach, but with this I can just stay at 1x, see exactly what's happening without pausing all while the projectiles travel at regular speeds

[glacial jetty]

Maybe speed settings ? Like current settings are Fast and new are Slow ?

[rough flint]

then nukes can be changed to take 2x as long to prime and travel 2x slower or something? at 1x speed, it should still be the same as 1/2x

what makes it really tiring? it should be the same, just that you need to set the game speed to 2x the desired (old) speed

[glacial jetty]

The max speed staying the same makes the game too fast in x2, and too sluggish in x1. I really do not like changing the speed for pvpers only when it gives so bad results for career.

[rough flint]

but 2x speed should be the same as old 1x speed

that is the intention

if something feels off/different then that's a different issue

[rotund helm]

But in reality it's not because DPS is 1/2 and max speed is x1. So on x2 toggle you will have normal x1 DPS, but x2 speed and now it's too fast.

[rough flint]

but acceleration is also halved

[jaunty surge]

projectile speed makes the issue here probably

[near herald]

potentially yeah

[hard sierra]

But then you just change nothing and the UL MRT meta will continue to reign supreme

[stoic mauve]

It still is very strong in this test patch

[brittle rapids]

ye but that's a different issue i think the main goal of this is making the default speed (1x) the same as 1/2x combat wise atleast

since most things in the game like animations and sounds are intended for 1x

or atleast that's what i think, i could be wrong

[rotund helm]

It doesn't matter much, the main thing is the max speed.

[near herald]

I mean acceleration determines how quickly a ship can respond to any change in a battle

[rotund helm]

It doesn't matter for ships that constantly moving. Monothrust ships can use feathering to turn quickly without heavy acceleration losses.

[hard sierra]

Huh alr ig

Then why don't you just evenly half everything

Problem ||anything but|| solved

[brittle rapids]

you can't do that equally most of the time, like for example hitscan weapons

[hard sierra]

I was being sarcastic but whatever

[rough flint]

that's basically what was done lol

except for shot speeds and idk why

[polar halo]

the issue with this update is that it's trying to both not effect pvp balance and effectively double top speed in pvp

speed is intrinsically tied to balance with how this game works

being faster means you can dodge easier, keep weapons on target for longer, fling nukes further, out-maneuver enemies so they struggle to even turn towards you

[lucid mist]

I hope that this can be refined to the point where its liked by everyone but I also encourage the devs to be ok with this not getting implemented if it doesnt work

[sage leaf]

I'm not sure how to feel about this. It makes ships and crew feel sluggish. Maybe slight increase in crew speed?

[vocal portal]

Yeah this has proven really tricky to do. We want to keep top speed the same in order to keep long-distance flight times in Career more-or-less the same. We did experiment with some things like slowly reducing ship drag over time when a ship keeps traveling in the same direction. (I forget why we didn't like that, but it may be worth revisiting.)

[sullen summit]

likely had to do with collision avoidance

[vocal portal]

mmm, I'm not sure if collision avoidance was any more of an issue with that then it is now

[sullen summit]

ships having to alter their course would cancel the reduced drag

[vocal portal]

basically yeah

IIRC there was a threshold in which it could steer without losing speed

[polar halo]

honestly i think the issues that this is trying to fix could have just been fixed with more information being more accessible to players. like, a popup which says 'if combat's moving too fast for you, try pausing or slowing down time!'

[hard sierra]

Shot speed and top speed stayed the same

[polar halo]

this change feels like it doesn't improve anything much but makes some things worse

[vocal portal]

If the only goal was to make the game easier for new players, then maybe that would work. (Though having done a ton of playtesting, I can tell you that people tend to get overwhelmed by all the options and ways to control things, and many don't even utilize pause at first, even though the game mentions it several times in the tutorials.)

[polar halo]

i just feel like slowing down the combat isn't really worth it with the host of other issues it causes, when pausing is available and so effective in career. plus the whole time control thing

and i don't really see how elim being in half speed is an issue, in fact i actually prefer the animations and sfx in 1/2x. feels beefier

[tawny ledge]

It did feel like some sfx was off in the slower mode

part of it is definitely just not being used to a larger gap between noises but the little "tzit" noises of disruptors feel really weird when it's spaced out so much

especially the sfx of smaller weapons (like aforementioned disruptors, but also lasers and front-mounted cannons) felt kinda odd since in small ship fights on this speed, every shot counts, but the sounds of the shots don't sound important enough

so i am inclined to agree with theta
while this could work, it'd take a lot of fixing that wouldn't be worth it imo

[cloud plume]

I still suggest to either

1. Have it as an option similarly to resource scarcity and damage multipliers. Best option imo, as it has the best of both worlds. Just pick whichever you prefer.

or

2. Change the default “set speed to x1” setting that activates whenever you spot an enemy to “x1/2” and not bother with having to change and rebalance everything. Nothing needlessly complex, does essentially the same.

[tired minnow]

the disruptor sound effects in 1/2x are frickin hypnotizing

[rough flint]

the point of halving combat speed is because 1/2 is a good speed, but all the sounds/graphics are made for 1x

[near herald]

It would be more work and perhaps something to do only later on when the game is closer to completion, but, perhaps separate adjusted animations and sounds for other speed settings?

[cloud plume]

x1 is also a good speed. So is x8 or 1/8th speed.

[rough flint]

the sound/graphics are not made for 8x or 1/8x

[cloud plume]

They’re also not made for half speed.

[rough flint]

exactly

they are made for 1x

so combat should be shifted so the graphics/sounds are better

[cloud plume]

So keep the game at x1. Done. No change needed.

[near herald]

that's why I suggested this

[rough flint]

but combat is better at 1/2x

[near herald]

not ideal or easy but would fix the problem

[cloud plume]

For you? Maybe. In my opinion it’s way too slow.

[brittle rapids]

for pvp elim, arena and maybe bnb

[jaunty surge]

there's also the point career multiplayer when someone is in combat and another person isnt

[cloud plume]

Wasn’t this whole thing with mainly the career in mind tho?

[rough flint]

then that is your opinion

[rough flint]

yes, and most people afaik prefer combat 1/2x

[cloud plume]

Don’t act as if yours is an objective truth.

[brittle rapids]

pvp is also effected and also matters alot still

[uneven citrus]

||everything that air says is objective truth for him||

[lucid mist]

*them

[balmy hatch]

It's better for pvp and newer players in career at least

In the case you don't like it you can always speed it up

But it's better when most of the playerbase doesn't have to change the speed

[rough flint]

also, imo, sped up sounds are less irritating than the slowed down speeds, especially things like mining laser and resource collector

[cloud plume]

Hence I suggest this.

[pastel moon]

theres probably a good compromise somewhere

[balmy hatch]

I think having it as an option would suck since you'd have to make sure stuff is balanced equally on both settings

Given how many problems appeared in the preview I think it would just be unnecessary work to balance twice as much

[balmy hatch]

Compromise? On the internet?

Jokes aside, I think 3/4 would be alright but probably worse than 1/2 imo

[cloud plume]

We already have the old version, which works perfectly fine, and we have this version that’s getting worked on regardless.

Sure we could have more speed settings but that seems even more unnecessary than the current changes already are.

[balmy hatch]

We don't need more speed settings

You could just play on 2x

[cloud plume]

And you could just play on 1/2

Or we could both be happy and get speed settings.

[balmy hatch]

As for the old version, there was still work being put into changing multiple values and testing them, it wasn't like both existed already

[balmy hatch]

If most of the playerbase has to play on 1/2 it's bad

[cloud plume]

There’s always gonna be some balancing, both if the old version continues or if the new one takes over.

[cloud plume]

And if we had 2 speed settings, everyone is happy. Is that not the best outcome?

[balmy hatch]

Yeah, but if both continue there'd be double the work making sure everything works

[balmy hatch]

In an ideal world yes but I think it would be too hard to manage to be worth it

[cloud plume]

You could argue the same about the damage and resources scarcity modes, but in reality the majority of the work is a single multiplier value that gets added to the weapons, thrusters and crew speed.

[balmy hatch]

It's easy when it only affects resource drop rates or damage, but here multiple different settings are altered for multiple different parts and projectiles

[rough flint]

and also they are not altered in a way that would be compatible w/ mp

[cloud plume]

Yeah. It’s a x0.5 multiplier. It’s not that deep.

[balmy hatch]

I don't think it is everywhere

Also stuff like drag working differently probably requires more attention

[cloud plume]

But drag isn’t affected. Speed remains the same, only acceleration was reduced.

[balmy hatch]

Is it not? Must've confused it for acceleration then

[cloud plume]

Yeah, as far as I know only acceleration was halved. Thankfully, at first I thought they halved max speed too lmao

[polar halo]

drag is halved to allow for the same top speed with halved thrust

[glacial jetty]

Even with that the game feels too sluggish. I like 1/2 for pvp, but I usually fight AI with 1x speed (even in direct control and avoider) in career mode. I just hate how long fights take now, not being able to speed it up or I just die because x2 is too fast.

I genuinely believe this should be a setting if that's going to be implemented

[vocal portal]

Why is 2x too fast?

There is absolutely no way this will be a setting. That's just not technically viable.

[rough flint]

?? why do you approach the ai differently than human opponents

[cloud plume]

I guess because ships take ages to fire but still move at the same, relatively fast speed.

Seriously, why is this necessary? Just set the speed to 0.5 when an enemy approaches and be done with it…

[rough flint]

game is too easy? if that's the case, i think u r playing at the wrong difficulty setting

[remote wind]

Seriously, why is this necessary?
This is necessary (very good, rather) because, for the vast majority of players;

• It makes the game more fluid because there's significantly less speed switches necessary
• It makes the game more optimized because it doesn't have to process as much at a given time
• It makes the game more welcoming if the campaign and multiplayer lobbies are at the same speed

Set the speed to 0.5 when an enemy approaches
This isn't viable because it maintains the jarring standard of an enemy having control of time and can be very irritating if they bob in and out of range. For every time it happens it requires that your attention be brought away from the game and to the random numbers at the top of your screen. That isn't even to mention the friction caused by multiple players trying to all turn it back up at the same time as well

...Past all that, if you just redouble it by going to 1x speed, then very little changes. Current 1/2 and future 1x are practically the exact same...

[polar halo]

they really aren't, having played a decent amount of both

[cloud plume]

If it’s practically the same, why did so much have to change? From what I can tell they had to rebalance every single weapon and a bunch of other stuff just so the game runs slower.

And the max speed hasn’t changed, so going up to x2 means the ship moves at twice the speed it did before, making it as Markty said it, sluggish.

I wouldn’t mind the weapons slowing down a little, but a solid 50% reduction just feels too slow imo. It’s a waiting game for weapons to fire.

[polar halo]

as i said here, increasing speed while keeping balance the same is fundamentally not possible with how the game works

[remote wind]

I can just say they really are, having played a decent amount of both

If it's practically the same, why did so much have to change?
As I detailed before, it optimizes the game, makes it more fluid and smooth, and more welcoming and easier to understand for new players

[cloud plume]

Ah yes. The optimization that makes the game slower…

[polar halo]

surely it'd be just as easy to understand for new players if you just put a popup on screen saying 'if things are moving too fast for you, try slowing down time'

[remote wind]

I suppose the more important point is this change is very likely to happen so the best you can do is try to give feedback to make it as ideal and good a change impossible, rather than blindly oppose it kicking and screaming

Even if you don't believe me or disagree, it does help the experience, and too much to disregard

[cloud plume]

I have given my feedback already. Make it optional. If the devs don’t want to do that that’s fine, but I will continue to voice my opinion about this change which so far has been mostly negative.

[rough flint]

very annoying in mp, as saris said, and also no one reads the tutorials

[remote wind]

Suggesting feedback that has been completely and thoroughly shot down isn't feedback

[cloud plume]

As I said, if the devs don’t want to do it that’s fine.

But my opinion remains against it.

[polar halo]

i'm not blindly opposing it, i went into it with an open mind even expecting it to be better, i played it, and i came to conclusions based on my experience with both versions. i have given feedback that multiple people (only one of which is active in the pvp community, fyi) have agreed with via emojis, so my opinions obviously aren't just a me thing. i don't think this change is 'very likely to happen' if the community opinion on it continues to be that it's not necessary or is actively worse than without, and i will continue to provide my opinion on the change, which is that it does not need to happen and that the benefits of it do not outweight the negatives

[remote wind]

Pvp perspectives are never necessarily more relevant or helpful. Pvp conforms to the game, not vice versa, and something that inproves career mode will always take precedence due to the volume of players

But by this point we're largely rehashing our arguments so I digress

[polar halo]

as i said, the vast majority of people who reacted in agreeance to my point are not pvp players

only one of them is one i know to be active within the pvp community

[winter tree]

Apparently this is now a guarenteed change?

Since when.

[remote wind]

Its not, I never said as much, and apologize if I accidentally implied it was

[pastel moon]

my estimate is 60%+ of people here are pvp or atleast know pvp somewhat

over time my opinion over these changes have changed
the only thing i'm sad about is that round numbers have been cut in half and rounded up

i'm fine with them apart from that

[pastel moon]

saris never said its a guaranteed change?

[winter tree]

:moment:
Imma be real you saying this was kinda just
"shut up its happening whether you like it or not so go away"

Very little of the actual concerns raised about it have even been answered, and the impact on logistics and noncombat work like that is going to be horrendous. It does nothing to fix the supposed problem, makes controlling ships harder (Which is going to make the game worse to get into for newer players), and operates on the fundamentally flawed perspective that people slowing down in combat is "bad"

If that is so, then why include it as a game mechanic?

[pastel moon]

all i hear from your words are incomphrehensible

i'm sorry

[remote wind]

You're implying quite a bit 💀

[rough flint]

logistic work is also being worked on, separately

[winter tree]

Then they must come as one or not at all, and everything must be fixed before it should be implemented.

That still doesnt answer my concerns with how ships now feel (Which again, will likely make them offputting to newer players since lack of control really isnt a good thing), and the numerous balance issues this will cause.

I quite literally see no reason why this is even needed- yes, people can slow down the game when in combat, but thats the entire point of the mechanic.

[pastel moon]

One word
Experimental preview

:wacky:

[near herald]

Not sure if I agree with everything Kelsia is saying but I do agree it's odd that this is based on the assumption slowing the game down is bad. Seems very common across multiple genres of game.

[pastel moon]

this would never be final

its jover

[winter tree]

Then it should be treated as such, not as a change that is guaranteed to come and we cant do anything about.

[median burrow]

idk if I have say as someone who doesn't really control ships but it doesn't seem worth implementing this way, why not just make the current half speed the new 1x and add another layer of slowness like 1/8

[pastel moon]

they plan on the changes and are testing the waters and hopefully changing the experiment as it goes

chaotic landscape

[winter tree]

And yet we have had none of the issues addressed, especially with noncombat logistics work.
The changes come from a fundamentally flawed view and make massive, sweeping changes to the game's core, while also causing a host of problems yet to be addressed.

I see zero reason why the game needs these changes, since they will simply make career worse.

[pastel moon]

here's one of the issues potentially being adressed #1278833485884162108 message (although i disagree on this)

[rough flint]

because less speed change is better for mp career, and transition of single player to multiplayer

[pastel moon]

beams being wacky #1278833485884162108 message

#1278833485884162108 message

as for non-combat logistics its not touched on yet

there has been 0 updates on the preview since its release

its likely they're working on something

through whatever means necessary

[winter tree]

However it will be detrimental to the average player and significantly detrimental to newer players that now have significantly less control of their vessels.

[rough flint]

how

combat is supposed to feel the same at new 1x as old 1/2x

and new players barely have control of their vessels anyways?

[winter tree]

Everything takes much longer to accelerate, so they have less control
its
pretty simple

[pastel moon]

indeed!

new players get 0 usefullness from that

new players dont build avoiders to avoid lasers

[rough flint]

new player just stands in front of the ai like the ai does

[pastel moon]

lasers are the same speed now so thats something

[rough flint]

which acceleration will not affect

[winter tree]

harder to manuver, going to be running into shit more
its
Not hard to understand
The more control someone has over their vessel the better, and with less drag its compounded

[pastel moon]

acceleration hurts nuke dodging and its been heavily complained so i think its gonna be changed (the nuke speed that is)

what if acceleration was 1.5x of now?

[polar halo]

it's supposed to, but it doesn't.

[winter tree]

Then you have significantly more control, somewhat balancing out the reduced drag, but making it significantly easier in general to reach top speed
Unless you are meaning 1.5x of the changed speed, which would still have that issue, though not quite as bad.

[polar halo]

as i've said multiple times, speed is intrinsically tied to balance, so anything that alters speed or effective speed will have an alteration to how the game plays out in a substantial way

[remote wind]

If you have to specify something multiple times I wonder how actually relevant it is

Or if not that, how helpful it is to repeatedly point it out

[polar halo]

i have to specify it because people keep making statements as if it's false

[winter tree]

Or people just dont listen?

ah yes if someone says it multiple times its clearly not relavent

:moment:

[pulsar skiff]

the most i can get from this whole discussion is that the topic of lowering speed is very controversial for some reason

[winter tree]

?

[pulsar skiff]

personally, i wouldnt mind if it meant lower ship speeds and same speed projectiles. Just reduce damage dealt by a small amount and that should seal it

[rough flint]

then what should be changed so it does?

[pulsar skiff]

everyone here seems conflicted, in favor of or against the speed change

[polar halo]

top speeds being halved would do it, but then that comes with other serious issues like drastically slowing down career

[pulsar skiff]

even after some have shared opinions with planned thoughts and evidence there is no definite conclusion

[winter tree]

*acceleration change, not speed
speed is a whole different thing

[winter tree]

But then you are just putting everyone in 1/2x which is rather stupid imo
especially when the speed change button exists for a reason jesus christ

[rough flint]

did you read the post

the original post

because yes, it does exist, but if it can be reduced, that is good

[winter tree]

people will like

still use it

a lot

especially since projectile speeds havent been changed

This wont reduce usage of it (Nothing will, its there for a reason), it will simply make the game more annoying.

The best solution is quite literally to make animation syncing with speed an option
and there you got it
tada

[near herald]

I've found the lack of change to projectile speeds is actually kind of a pain. In the new 1x speed formerly 1/2x speed everything else moves how I'm used to but all projectiles are suddenly quite hard for my eyes to track comparatively

[pastel moon]

more visible actual projectile trails would be great

[polar halo]

ok yeah that'd be great

[pastel moon]

that would feel weird

you're more than manipulating time

also from what i know from .rules that seems a bit harder to implement

a lot

[winter tree]

Career co-op is an issue that imo wont ever be solved because cosmoteer has that speed changer, and quite literally the only way to fix it is to completely balance everything around 1x and completely remove it.

Another option, and the one I prefer, is to find some way to have "local" speed changes within a radius
But thats my own thoughts wandering so I digress

[rough flint]

yes, that is the point of the change

to make old 1/2x combat the same as new 1x combat

[winter tree]

Except it like
isnt

[pastel moon]

in what ways

[rough flint]

so how should it be changed so it is?

[pastel moon]

for one lower nuke

[rough flint]

i don't think halving max speeds would work

[polar halo]

yeah, that's the issue

[winter tree]

And by completely remove it, I do quite literally mean remove the ability to change the speed