Tournament Chat

[serene latch]

bo5

yeah

[fast oracle]

przy you should target the back engine room with the missiles not the reactor...

wow

[quartz summit]

F

[fast oracle]

gg

[quartz summit]

Last one for real?

[fast oracle]

last one

[quartz summit]

I thought the other one was the last one

it was a very solid end

literally movie type ending

[snow seal]

@jagged flume put the bracket in chat

[jagged flume]

Salephz being toxic "no skill" lol

[quartz summit]

Faster than you

[frank pecan]

Oh my.

[snow seal]

why do i have to fight qawa again

[serene latch]

@jagged flume ^

[surreal pecan]

THE OVERDOG WON!

Damn.

[fast oracle]

gg

[surreal pecan]

GGs

[snow seal]

why is qawa on the save level as cgt and luna

he did better than them

[serene latch]

oh yeah that too

wait

what does that mean now

OH

so i fight winner of cgt and luna

[frank pecan]

I will say black horse cause Przyjem is first time elim player.

[serene latch]

then

wait

i'm so confused

[jagged flume]

@fast oracle vs @serene latch

[snow seal]

??

[jagged flume]

Sorry those two fight

[snow seal]

but qawa made it further than luna

[jagged flume]

And still got knocked down

[snow seal]

okay but he should have an advantage over luna then

[sharp bane]

salephz you are now being excommunicated from player-run cosmoteer communities for being toxic one (1) time

love, the cosmoteer community

[quartz summit]

I'm going to save this because this is epic as fuck

[chilly barn]

wait what it's lunastro vs qawa???

HUH?

[jagged flume]

Apologies

[chilly barn]

OK

[serene latch]

so what happens if i win and salephz wins

[chilly barn]

well that gives me a chance

[snow seal]

so i made it to finals and cgt made it to quarter finals

but if cgt beats me so he wins?

that's a bit unfair

[quartz summit]

I'm leaving

Good luck boss

[chilly barn]

yeah but I'm seeded lower then you

[quartz summit]

Good luck to everyone else too

[vivid ore]

obv wasnt aware what i was fighting against earlier - thought przyjems was a mediocre morbiter ...

[chilly barn]

lowest seeded in lower vs highest seeded

makes sense

whoever wins each lower bracket game gets free paint

bc whoever wins is in top 3

[snow seal]

it is

[sharp bane]

save this

[jagged flume]

Ok you're actually being toxic now

Stop

[snow seal]

they have the same amount of ions

[vivid ore]

had it hiccups but becoming the nicest tourney to watch

[quartz summit]

the man the legend the myth himself

Przyjem

why did you stop writing please make presence so my comment makes actual sense

[vivid ore]

ultimately they will ram ... you can only run so long

[quartz summit]

I bet for luna

ping me for results pls

leaving

[surreal pecan]

Nice

[frank pecan]

Watching this ofter staying overnight is really sleep causing. CCC just lost three in this battle.

[sharp bane]

makes sense, the stream lost people too

[fast oracle]

funny

[frank pecan]

I hope all survived but I am not sure if that was just an injure for them.

[jagged flume]

@chilly barn vs @snow seal if you're both still around

[fast oracle]

gamertag please

[chilly barn]

salphez isn't around

[fast oracle]

save me from the tb rail

[chilly barn]

free paint for me!

[snow seal]

cgt got elimed in the quarter finals and i got elimed in finals

[sharp bane]

caught in 0.01k

[serene latch]

no advantage ig lol

wp

[snow seal]

so why am i fighting him

[surreal pecan]

DANG THE UPSETS XD

[surreal pecan]

Nice.

Caught in 144p

[frank pecan]

I don't know, maybe because the audiance wants.

[vivid ore]

politely asking for a bracket update

[fast oracle]

yeah i agree with saris

[sharp bane]

if anything happens, blame the brackets

we don't control how many players sign up

[serene latch]

@jagged flume there was also the other option of me vs cgt and lunastrod vs salephz, if that matters at all LOL

[fast oracle]

cgt please save me

[frank pecan]

I believe this will be quick.

[sharp bane]

can't have clean brackets

[fast oracle]

salephhhh

[quartz summit]

did luna win??

[fast oracle]

yes

[vivid ore]

bracket update plz:

[quartz summit]

no one did

[fast oracle]

i think i somehow have a chance to win

[errant forge]

exactly, you gonna win with me

[fast oracle]

not if saleph wins tho

[jagged flume]

@fast oracle vs @snow seal

[snow seal]

oh

[fast oracle]

omw

[chilly barn]

sorry lunastro 😦

[quartz summit]

YES OR NO

[sharp bane]

the famous cosmoteer drama.

when my friends get mad at eachother 😭

[short tartan]

can someone explain to me what's going on?

[surreal pecan]

Yeah...

Sal being toxic because... Uhm...

Tag won against him?

He wanted a lossless game I guess.

[vivid ore]

no armor vs rails ... ok

[naive lion]

cuz he's sick of morbiters like everyone else

[sharp bane]

which part exactly? the tournament generally or the salt rn?

[short tartan]

salt

[sharp bane]

well, because of brackets having to have compromises due to an uneven number of participants, salephz got put in what he thought was a disadvantaged position against an opponent who could have potentially been put at a lower round due to losing more battles in the past

salephz got salty and typed in-game, leading to a loss due to rails not being set up

[jagged flume]

(And then immediately won twice anyway)

[fast oracle]

xd

[jagged flume]

@errant forge you vs Salephz

[fast oracle]

again the morbiter vs tb rail

[vivid ore]

wouldn't armor make TB less effective because it adds weight to your ship?

[sharp bane]

weight on a TB ship is often good, imagine a sumo fighter

it lets it push without being pushed around itself

[serene latch]

^

[vivid ore]

deja vu

[sharp bane]

a light TB ship would be more like a ninja with a grappling hook

[serene latch]

weight on the ship being pushed is.. dependent on the moment of inertia

like it makes it harder to get turned but also makes it harder for you to turn

[quartz summit]

GG salephz

Go again

[sharp bane]

https://tenor.com/view/get-rotated-get-rotated-idiot-rotate-rotation-shark-gif-24511062

salephz all day today

[quartz summit]

yes

The opponent when they get matched against Salephz with his TB Railfan

GG

[frank pecan]

Though saying this fairly, in this bracket Przyjem rammed a way through a series of good ships.
Obvious for the first day match.

[chilly barn]

should have used my morbiter bc that one destroys salphez

kinda

[quartz summit]

GG again

[frank pecan]

The net again?

[fast oracle]

przy is doing that because otherwise he'd get turned by the tb

you have to orbit and expose the diagonal/side

[quartz summit]

True

[fast oracle]

one of the finals of all time

[quartz summit]

indeed

[vivid ore]

why?

[quartz summit]

This should have been the official ending :sadge:

It felt like one

[surreal pecan]

Damn.

Truly a finale that exists.

[frank pecan]

Now Przyjem is both silver in dom and gold in elim.

[sharp bane]

can we pls pronounce the tournament winner's name correctly at least once.
pshy-yem

[serene latch]

looks like the morbiter won.

[quartz summit]

almost

[serene latch]

wait

[surreal pecan]

Looks like morbiter won.

Precisely.

[serene latch]

OOH

[quartz summit]

Persiashem

[chilly barn]

30 bucks?!?!?!?!!!

[surreal pecan]

Damn

[fast oracle]

i wish coolgamertag would have won that match

[serene latch]

@jagged flume are you hosting in june

[surreal pecan]

That's some good money in Georgian.

[chilly barn]

pls make these rules good

th

that's the one with the cash prize?

[frank pecan]

That is so much, I can't imagine what lunch I can buy with which.

[surreal pecan]

Salephz definitely didn't have to rage quit like that he still had a chance.

Too bad he passed it up.

[snow seal]

no i did not

[quartz summit]

He didn't

[snow seal]

what the fuck do u mean had a chance

[quartz summit]

he's not that type of person

[snow seal]

are u fucking delusional

[vivid ore]

Free lunch tourney ftw 🍽️

[chilly barn]

@jagged flume do you know what the bracket is gonna look like?

[surreal pecan]

I mean you did defeat him a few times before.

[fast oracle]

saleph calm down pls

[quartz summit]

More like he had hopes of the boss wining

[surreal pecan]

No I am not you literally prove yourself to have won

TWICE

[snow seal]

missile orbiters HARD COUNTER tb rails

[sharp bane]

przyjem was probably getting better at fighting tb rails during these matches so I presume it got harder to beat him

[fast oracle]

yeah, awesome piloting by you for winning a few times

[quartz summit]

I can contact Cannonitro if you want some retribution/j

[surreal pecan]

You have been playing minimum 10 times as long as PRZ and seem to be the most skilled TB rail pilot.

It evens out.

[snow seal]

yeah it says a lot when someone with NO SKILL WHATSOEVER

[jagged flume]

?mute Salephz 1h

[hybrid holly]

salephz#3355 was muted.

[surreal pecan]

Lol now you're just insulting Jem.

LMFAO

[kindred arrow]

this tbh^^ you can actually tell if you look at the first match they did and the last one

[jagged flume]

You clearly are tilted here and insulting other members isn't something they deserve

[quartz summit]

This seems like enough time to cool down

Good night Salephz

[surreal pecan]

Lol.

[jagged flume]

Tournaments are about having fun and playing to win so to blame others for their tactics is embarassing to say the least

[vivid ore]

was sure the tb rail wins in the end ... saleph obv loosing nerves

[inland lagoon]

couldnt handle przyjems genius

[fast oracle]

nah, they do really hard counter

[quartz summit]

This commentary was unnecessary, but yes

[errant forge]

at all you won with nick's morbiter easly

[fast oracle]

saleph is just an awesome tb rail pilot

[vivid ore]

... pulled a polar bear XD

[surreal pecan]

(I mean he did defeat other good players that he had an equal or even an unfavorable matchups against, so not like he's unskillful. I've played with them myself and a lot of other people have too)

[errant forge]

but yeah.. i can say i had an advantage

[sharp bane]

where's the screenshot

[fast oracle]

i knew i would lose because it was saleph, not because it was a TB rail

[surreal pecan]

That was my skill issue.

;~;

[quartz summit]

It was his first time using a morbiter and didn't fight against a TB Rail in a long time IIRC

[surreal pecan]

Plus the way I'm built - nuke.

Plus the way I panicked.

[surreal pecan]

Plus no previous play against a TB rail or at least not with a morbiter at all.

[surreal pecan]

💀

[quartz summit]

Who's polar?

[jagged flume]

@trim kestrel you will never live this down

[sharp bane]

(ofc this situation is pretty different from polar, polar was going to sweep the last match and then FFd)

[jagged flume]

^^

[surreal pecan]

Though GG @errant forge!

[quartz summit]

Indeed

very good plays

[surreal pecan]

One of the finales ever for sure, but you still did very good.

[sharp bane]

yeah gg! great performance going from dom into elim.

[fast oracle]

will we have a reupload of the tournament?

[surreal pecan]

I am impressed to see such a newcomer to elimination do this well and nevertheless WIN!

Truly deserving the title of ''Overdog.''

[quartz summit]

At first glance I thought you would fall very fast, it seems that I was wrong

[surreal pecan]

Indeed.

I still wanted a morbi mirror against you.

Too bad I matched up against TWO TOURNAMENT WINNERS

[quartz summit]

Got annihilated by everyone before that

that's an obvious exaggeration for the sake of comedy

[fast oracle]

oh wait who's third place?

[surreal pecan]

I deserved better matchups.

[fast oracle]

no third?

[jagged flume]

Third place typically isn't relevant

[surreal pecan]

You my friend.

[wooden crystal]

Too bad this style of tournament just makes it all so predictable due to matchups

[surreal pecan]

Yeah.

[jagged flume]

But yeah it'd be you Lunastro

[fast oracle]

:D

[quartz summit]

From start to finish I didn't know who was going to fight who

[surreal pecan]

Me too.

[surreal pecan]

You did gud

Gee gees

[quartz summit]

GG Luna, you're a third of a tournament champion

[jagged flume]

I'll have a solid bracket before the event starts next time to deal with that

[wooden crystal]

Don’t understand why counterpicking is such a horrible thing that we need to take the importance away from having a diverse array of ships

[fast oracle]

aaahgh i was so close to winning

[jagged flume]

Because it takes half an hour lol

[fast oracle]

only saleph qon

against me

[quartz summit]

Also shouldn't przyjem obtain the champion role?

[surreal pecan]

Half an hour well spent to witness a 10 times more diverse tournament without the things happening that for example happened to me.

Did I really have a chance against slowk to be perfectly honest?

No.

[kindred arrow]

@jagged flume did you say what kind of tournament you're going to host next time?

[surreal pecan]

I don't think so.

[wooden crystal]

You can set the in game timer and worst case scenario the players have a one sided matchup (like in this tournament)

[surreal pecan]

I think yeah.

[jagged flume]

Single player elimination with preview off and no ship restrictions

[kindred arrow]

ty

[vivid ore]

blind counterpicking is not a problem at all: it is poker
but playing poker with open cards where you can swich your cards even seconds before the call makes no sense at all.

[surreal pecan]

I thought you hated having no preview as it resorted to mind games.

[wooden crystal]

What makes no sense is rock paper scissors where you have one choice that you pick at the beginning of the day and everyone knows which one you picked

[vivid ore]

ppl will switch ships to hardcounter seconds before the timer ends

[wooden crystal]

OMG IF ONLY THE OTHER PLAYER COULD ALSO SWITCH THEIR SHIP LAST SECOND

[quartz summit]

Next time we need Ion only tournament pls

[surreal pecan]

Anyways, that was such a fun time.

Need to go ya'll, see ya.

[wooden crystal]

WOW WHAT AN AMAZING FEATURE THAT WOULD BE

[surreal pecan]

GGs to prz again and Salephz, please cool off.

[wooden crystal]

WALT SHOULD ADD THAT

[surreal pecan]

👋

[vivid ore]

yes but in rockpaperscissors you do not see what your opponent selects

[quartz summit]

bye gn nick

[sharp bane]

I made a helpful map of this tournament

[quartz summit]

Nick go sleep

[surreal pecan]

Sorry

[vivid ore]

true only having one choice in rps is nonsensical also

[wooden crystal]

That’s literally what this tournament was honey

[sweet saffron]

whats up with salephzs name

[wooden crystal]

Please read

[quartz summit]

Best way to play rps is to have everyone choose the coolest option

[vivid ore]

the only way you play rps is by blind picking - or with a hidden deck of cards if you compare it to poker

[sharp bane]

cosmoteer beauty pagent tournament

you are judged on performance and ship coolness

[quartz summit]

Ions and Ions

😎

Ion >> Any other weapon

[vivid ore]

true sweety - and i critisized that before

[sharp bane]

anyways, this isn't like poker or like rock paper scissors, because in an optimal scenario the visible picks option allows the two opponents to come to a compromise and pick ships that are evenly matched

[wooden crystal]

So you prefer predictable RPS to changing at any point in time?

[vivid ore]

@wooden crystal i guess we actually agree that picking ships BUT blind is the best solultion?

[wooden crystal]

THIS IS SEEN IN CHOOSABLE SHIPS

[quartz summit]

What if mirror matches

no more counterpicking

[wooden crystal]

LOCKING IN SHIPS AND BLIND PICKING MAKES THE GAME MATCHUP DEPENDENT WITH LOW SKILL INVOLVED BY REMOVING AN ASPECT OF THE GAME

[vivid ore]

ok read what we type, type slower and drop the CAPS

[quartz summit]

Uppercase bad

[wooden crystal]

CAPS LOCK NEVER TURNS OFF, AND IM READING MORE THAN JUST YOUR MESSAGES, GIVE ME MORE THAN 2 MINUTES

[jagged flume]

I agree that picking good, but how do you solve an hour or more being spent in a lobby

[wooden crystal]

NO BECAUSE PICKING SHIPS BLIND DOESNT REMOVE THE DEPENDENCY ON MATCHUP FISHING

[wooden crystal]

Rs snanbsjs jsjs

[jagged flume]

Ideally we have preview and switch on full round robin tournaments, but the amount of time that takes is too exhausting and as such concessions must be drawn somewhere

[vivid ore]

nugg didn't get that we actually agree - continues shouting ... well

[wooden crystal]

if we agreed we wouldn’t be talking about how to fix the problem

[sharp bane]

I personally still can't see a solution

[quartz summit]

Maybe a bad idea: 1 minute to pick and only allow 3 ship changes(????????????????

[sharp bane]

the way esports handle this is alternating bans, but because the variations in cosmoteer are infinite, that isn't applicable

[kindred arrow]

first to pick the ship loses the counter picking....

[quartz summit]

that's why it's a bad idea

is a solution but not a good one

[sharp bane]

at that point just have one player pick a ship and let the other pick a counter, remove the middle steps

[sweet saffron]

clearly you just need to balance the weapons in a way that makes it more profitable to have multiple types on a ship and lowering the number of "good" types of ship

[quartz summit]

Missiles OP buff flak

[sharp bane]

ah yes just make cosmoteer the best balanced game in existence

very simple to do

I think you can do it with a few if-else statements

[jagged flume]

We could finally do the ban system, we actually haven't tried that

[errant forge]

so yeah... i accidentally won tournament

my purpose was to MAYBE take third place to get paintjob

[sharp bane]

congrats!!

[quartz summit]

^^

[sharp bane]

happy for you

[quartz summit]

GGs

[fast oracle]

and the morbiter won

[vivid ore]

ok 1 last time, my view:
Locking ships to only one selection whole tourney can be boring because there is no surprise moment and no way to improove your ship choice over time.
rePicking ships with ship preview is exploitable in too many ways - wich have been explained now numerous times.
rePicking ships blind solves all problems above.

[sharp bane]

statistically even if morbiters were no better than other ships they would have won

cuz there were the most of them

[jagged flume]

Man you earned that placement so many of those matches and players were tough as nails and you clawed your way through a dozen close calls

[kindred arrow]

what about everyone has to submit 3 ships before the tourney starts... once they are matched up, the other person gets a look at those ships and both of them have to ban 1 ship at the same time... repeat that process and you end up with 1 ship for each player

[jagged flume]

That's the ban system that's been considered for a while now

[quartz summit]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1053513645218344960/1053519971168292944/caption-15.gif

[vivid ore]

why easy when you can do it very complicated 😉

[wooden crystal]

I’ve addressed your points and you haven’t solved the problems I brought up with your solutions spacecat. You’ve also ignored the points I’ve brought up for why the thing I’m talking about works fine. I’m gonna block you

[kindred arrow]

well i haven't followed the latest talks about a new system... but if others had the same idea it might be worth a try

[vivid ore]

ok lets agree to disagree.

[kindred arrow]

because then everyone can hopefully be happy at the end

[quartz summit]

slowly but surely building up to 200 blocked people

[sharp bane]

wdym by repicking blind btw? players pick visible, then pick blind?

or just pick blind once

[quartz summit]

Step one: Pick morbiter
Step two: Pick morbiter counter
Step three: PD wall vs PD wall

[vivid ore]

voting out ships from the other player is very hard = you best ship never gets played. Resulting in a lesser ships only fight.
Cannot imagine many ppl want that.

[sweet saffron]

forget this ship picking shinanigans, someone host a tourny where everybody participating gets the one singular ship built by the host

[wind blaze]

lol

[sharp bane]

if you want to play a specific ship you bring three copies of it

at the expense of having no counterpick options

[wind blaze]

Or, after each level is a different type of ship. For example the semi final can be an ion duel and the finals rail kites.

[vivid ore]

wich woud not be allowed because it is exploiting

[quartz summit]

why wouldn't be it allowed

[fast oracle]

what if you only had a number of bans during the tournament, let's say 3

[sharp bane]

last time it was allowed

[kindred arrow]

the heck you mean with ,,best ship''? there is no ,,best ship'' in this scenario because it's based on the matchup itself...

[sharp bane]

didn't we trial a single ban tourney?

[quartz summit]

proceeds to ban all the ships of the enemy, wins automatically

[sweet saffron]

pro strat: wait till the final game and ban their ships

[vivid ore]

both players pick ships without seeing the opponents ships picked - quick easy and fun gambling game. Then fight.

[sharp bane]

honestly this would be cool, for added points have a new surprise ship every round and make the flight controls as complicated as possible to turn it into a puzzle solving competition. would unironically be cool.

[sharp bane]

yeah that's not bad too imo, we're not hyper-competitive around here.

there can be a bit of extra luck involved

but I am saying this as a person who usually brought a single ship to tournaments anyways so never employed counterpicking.

not losing much on my end.

[vivid ore]

maybe even paly a round of chess before the match, who wins can pick the the other players ships ... yes yes mor complexity plz

[quartz summit]

Gn people

[sweet saffron]

night

[sharp bane]

this isn't complex, stop strawmanning. for the players, they would be in the lobby and playing within a few seconds.

it would be a fun experimental tournament along the lines of the zombie waves tournaments.

[vivid ore]

well new tourny types - im all for it

like bossfight

dom tourney

wierd setup tourney

[sweet saffron]

not a tourny per say but there are bossfights being hosted and they have them on youtube

[sharp bane]

sad that the racing tournament didn't work 😔

but I am looking forward to a racing tournament if/when custom asteroid placement and collision damage are introduced!

[vivid ore]

are they palying them in local network - because they are rarely seen in lobby?

[sweet saffron]

I'm pretty sure it's not LAN

[sharp bane]

are you talking about Blade Tardigrade's series?

[vivid ore]

have been online frequently lately, but hardly any bossgames seen

[sweet saffron]

yes

[sharp bane]

yeah I've been in a few but blade hosts very rarely

it's hard to make a fun bossfight tho

either it's a missile/rail monstrosity that steamrolls everything, or it gets rolled itself by more optimal/outranging ships

[vivid ore]

in classic they where epic at times

myself does not host bossgames simply because i have not built any boss ships

[wooden crystal]

We should ban individual parts LOL

[vivid ore]

Was a rly enjoyable tourney and with changing ships could have been even more so.
cya

[serene latch]

what if you had 3 loadouts and you take turns banning

so like a -> b -> b -> a

[kindred arrow]

still thinking that a has an advantage there... imo both of them would have to ban at the same time (such as using discord dm or etc.)

[serene latch]

that could also work

[snow seal]

for a 1v1, is a 3 minute game too short?

[spring fable]

depends on price limit

[snow seal]

1.5m

[spring fable]

it problably wouldnt be enough for any kind of avoider

[snow seal]

hmm 5mins i guess is better

not many games got to the point past 5 mins anyways today

[snow seal]

is this the same as

• A bans a ship from B
• B picks the ship A uses
• A picks the ship B uses

[trim kestrel]

I was young and foolish but I don't regret the experience lol

[jagged flume]

Understandable ha ha ha

[vital spindle]

What is sphe co?

[snow seal]

nothing dw about it

[vital spindle]

Hmmm may I join

[desert sky]

so who won?

nevermind i've read annoucment

[snow seal]

morbiter

[desert sky]

:agony:

[vivid ore]

💡 Playing some team game rounds post tourney yesterday, wich where very enjoyable, i had an idea.
Tourney with differnt price classes then 1.5mil.
Like: 1st round 500K, 2nd 1mil, 3rd 2mil
Would force players to get out of the 1.5mil meta zone.

[fast oracle]

i think it would be interesting, but there's a lot of research put into 1.5M ships, and some people just don't want/don't have the time to experiment with other prices. I think the 1.5M category is beautiful because the meta is very very refined and new small ideas improve it even more.

[short tartan]

wait tournament spec is is 1.5 mil not 1 mil?

[surreal pecan]

Oh my what an unexpected news not like that was the MP standard all along or anything.

But yeah satire aside it is.

[short tartan]

oh

I'm making my first tournament ships

[surreal pecan]

Cool.

[fast oracle]

yes, but i'd suggest playing normal multiplayer (to test your ships) before playing in the tournament

[surreal pecan]

Obviously.

[short tartan]

yeah

I meant mp spec ships

[surreal pecan]

Yeah, PvP ships.

The best way to start making a PvP ship in my opinion is a basic railfan.

The next best one would be an ion cruiser.

Way more forgiving to new players than a monothrust ion orbiter.

[vocal cloak]

eh I wouldn't recommend railfan as first ship

[surreal pecan]

Yes mister ''medium reactor module-less nuke avoider as the first ship'' man.

Who the hell am I to judge lol my first proper PvP ship was a nuke ULMSF

[vocal cloak]

i started with an MO

cruiser is a good choice tho

i would flip it. cruiser first railfan second

[fast oracle]

me neither because newbies don't fan. I'd recommend ion cruisers

i started with ions and saw that morbiters were winning all the time against me so i made a morbiter

and then i saw qawa and made a cannon wall

[surreal pecan]

xd

[fast oracle]

mainly because i wanted to learn morbiter piloting to be able to predict their movement

[surreal pecan]

My PvP beginning in a nutshell:

''Ew meta is so generic.''
sees Thorned Eryngo
''OMG meta encourages wackiness and experimentation''
gets instantly hooked

[fast oracle]

my pvp beginning was:

oh i remember this game i played it so many years ago
oh ions were very cool i remember making a 4 ion emitter ship
sees sunburst
ok i need to build a ship like this one

[vocal cloak]

i started with a copy of cosmic's storage based MO, saw a few nuke orbiter and changed out the missiles for nukes

[vital spindle]

Mine was I made a shitty mine ship
Sees IGBM
Alright I’m making that

[surreal pecan]

Nothing will top the sheer inspirational spark Enoshade gave me.

Oh yeah Forder too.

Oneshot and Eryngo where the two ships that made me go from ''Ew stale meta'' to ''OMG WACKY META.''

[vivid ore]

tbh i always thought 1mil is more intersting then 1.5mil. All the ship types are possible in 1mil but there is less copies of the same building blocks.
i joked that a 1.5 mil is basically a 1mil with 500K Spam added.

[surreal pecan]

Not true.

There are a few ship types that specifically require 1.5mil, ULMSFs most specifically.

It's true for most ships but not all.

Oh yeah, ion capacitors as well for whatever that's worth.

Plus 1.5mil allows for WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more variety.

[vivid ore]

only the variety of different weapons and systems hardly ever happens - mostly it is more of the same.

[desert sky]

ooohhhh yes i agree

i've tried making it my first ship but horribly failed
my brain just can't stand making long rail array

[vivid ore]

we both never tried a 1mil ULMFS - but i think it should be perfectly possible

[desert sky]

it would be more hard tbh
imagine making a 3 module spinner with a core or using medium reactor who mess with the shields supply

[white apex]

railfans have some of the hardest logistics choices and targeting/piloting techs in existance

[white apex]

less viable due to the inner core taking up more space proportional to the rest of the ship

[white apex]

imo squibs/traps would be best due to their relative incomplexity at low skill levels and the basic rts skills they teach at a low level

also i started w/ squibs so u should too :P

[spring fable]

i would say a DC ship is a good way to start

thats how i started anyway

[white apex]

dc piloting is pretty forgiving from its weight

[upbeat ridge]

wanna name a few?

[white apex]

too lazy :P

[spring fable]

if they dont know how to railfan they will not win ever with rails

[upbeat ridge]

okay yeah railfan first, tech later
trust

[serene latch]

orbiter walls have some of the easiest logistics, and the piloting is pretty intuitive

(not biased at all)

[vital spindle]

Their piloting is a pain

I’ll give you logistics

[serene latch]

intuitive =/= easy to pull off

[desert sky]

be me and start with an avoider

[serene latch]

be me and start off with dom ships

[vital spindle]

be me and start with an IBGM

[sweet saffron]

be me and start with two-part ion rams

[desert sky]

you do pvp now?

[upbeat ridge]

did

[vivid ore]

This might be a ship type that suffers from lower credits ... but i also suggested 2mil.
2mil ships are certainly more spammy but fleetplay will get more interestng at the same time.

[raven fern]

If you play domination why not. Otherwise you're just wasting your time building ships you'll hardly ever get the opportunity to play.
Unless building in itself is sufficient satisfaction

[surreal pecan]

Yes yes good luck mixing TB nukes and ions in a 1mil vessel without sacrificing EVERYTHING.

[surreal pecan]

Okay fair point.

But an amateur railfan can still do well.

And I mean an A M A T E U R railfan.

[vivid ore]

There are many credit ranges that are rly truly interesting. They all shoudl be built and played !

[desert sky]

well ig 1.5mil was chosen for a reason

it's just the most intresting in all aspect s

[raven fern]

Deleting your previous message just to paste it at the bottom of the discussion in bold doesn t get your point accross any better spacecat

[surreal pecan]

Wude.

[errant forge]

If you want unsual price ranges play dom !

[wicked rose]

I am loving these tournamets btw. You guys have some wacky ship designs ❤️

[surreal pecan]

Wackity wack meta my beloved.

[surreal pecan]

Nice Przyjem is red now.

[unkempt gulch]

yee

[quartz summit]

Yee

[surreal pecan]

Yee

[vocal cloak]

oh next tourney is on 17th june

[surreal pecan]

Mhm

[errant forge]

accidentally yes

[surreal pecan]

👍

Accidentally winning a tournament is surely one of the ways to win a tournament.

[errant forge]

exactly

[raven fern]

Where was it announced?

[vocal cloak]

The description of saris tourney higlight

[raven fern]

Thanks for the info

[surreal pecan]

Nice.

[surreal pecan]

Hey Saris hasn't posted a link in #events yet.

Is the June tournament form/rule introduction already up?

[jagged flume]

Waiting for Walter to put an ingame announcement

[serene latch]

BECOME ONE OF US

EMBRACE stupidity THE CHAMPION ROLE

[desert sky]

i hope that mean originality is overrated but in polish

[errant forge]

sure lol

[snow seal]

did u notice the imposter amogus

[serene latch]

woah what happened to ur role

[snow seal]

nope u still blind

[serene latch]

wdym it's gone on my client

unless that's just me

[snow seal]

u are tunnel vision

it's not me i'm crew

someone else is the imposter

[jagged flume]

Salephz left and rejoined the server to purge themself of the role earlier, Qawa

[serene latch]

huh

[snow seal]

@-@ i'm not the imposter

theres someone else who is sus

[snow seal]

also i left bc i was angy

[raven fern]

Well that's new, the next tournament has a cash prize. People are going to step up their game 👀

[spring fable]

welp, im not getting that money

[raven fern]

Sure you can, you never know how things might play out. And you have time to design some better ships if you're scared of that

[naive lion]

Just go morbiter and you'll prolly win

[chilly barn]

So, to be clear, basically your opponent chooses your loadout?

and you choose theirs

Honestly may be best idea to go morbiter morbiter morbiter

bc no one is going to have three morbiter counters right?

Yeah I predict that this tourney will not go well
Can we nerf missiles yet?

like what the heck is person A gonna do there? they loose automatically

I may not go 3x morbiter but I think 3x something is the play here, which is kinda dumb IMO

[raven fern]

How would you offer to nerf missiles without making them irrelevant? Also, how hard is it to bring a ship with some PD which completely counters missiles?

[stone zephyr]

wheres the rules for this tourney?

[raven fern]

#announcements

[chilly barn]

easy counter to that is you ban the ship that completley counters missiles

[stone zephyr]

thanks

[chilly barn]

like if you have any ship in your lineup that looses to missiles, then you get wrecked by a 3x morbiter person

BC they're doing a morbiter no matter what and they get to choose what ship you are using out of three

[raven fern]

I'd say that a rule could be added stating that you can't bring more than one ship from a particular archetype to your lineup. However, that brings up other issues

[chilly barn]

it's the same game as last time, but with single elimination instead @jagged flume

I don't think that this is good for the game, I think that this format is broken

Or also having four lineups or only one ban may help

[jagged flume]

Only one ban could lead to a counterpick loop

[chilly barn]

I think that the rules in their current state really just make it even more rock paper scissors because it's single instead of triple-double elim, and if the opponenet chooses right and you choose multiple different ships, the opponent auto wins

[chilly barn]

how is that worse than a even more rock paper scissors rng tourney?

[jagged flume]

We get stuck in counterpick hell and the event never finishes

[chilly barn]

okay, fair

I think it's better to do blind picking rng then rng rng gaming tho

[jagged flume]

This will only increase in likelihood compared to past events given actual stakes

[jagged flume]

You... that's... that's a joke, right?

Ok whew you edited it

[chilly barn]

XD

But yeah this is gonna end up in a morbiter victory unless they get real unlucky and get paired with someone with three morbiter coutners

[jagged flume]

I'll convince Walt to nerf missiles in the mean time

[chilly barn]

PLEASE

Although I was planning to metagame and play missile kites, and convince ppl to play morbiters

so I have pd and they dont XD

[jagged flume]

Oh boy it already begins

[chilly barn]

but yeah I guess the metagame will be metagaming

[jagged flume]

I'll be miffed if I see anyone giving players bad advice

[vocal cloak]

Oh the ping restriction is gone :D

[chilly barn]

Hey @wooden crystal you should play an avoider, a missile orbiter, and a deck cannon wall with 50 layers of armor!

make sure the avoider has no pd

[jagged flume]

I won't likely ever participate in official events since I'm going to be hosting them

[chilly barn]

Ok ill tell nug to do that then

@jagged flume what if you couldn't have multiple ships have the same weapon? That prevents 3x of the same ship withought making objective archetype statments.

[jagged flume]

I kind of wanted to have as little restrictions possible ship-wise this tournament

[chilly barn]

I don't want the gameplay meta to be pick 3x morbiters or TB rails, I want your ship selection to have the ability to be unique

because with these rules, 3x of the same ship will almost always win

[jagged flume]

Hmm, you've mostly convinced me, but there's still the downside of people needing three different ships at minimum as well as unseen issues I'm not cognizant enough to see right now

Issue of a 750k rail pair and a tb rail being different as an example but no way to work around that...

[chilly barn]

you could add a clause saying that it's per bracket of number of ships in your loadout

[serene latch]

if i happen to host another dom tourney, would you participate?

[jagged flume]

Potentially, but the tournament after this one will be domination anyhow

[serene latch]

oh nice

you should play, i think it'd be interesting

[upbeat ridge]

metagaming was never my forte

[raven fern]

Are we talking about nerfing missiles because we are incapable of finding a tournament system sufficiently balanced and to our liking. Or are we doing so because they actually need a nerf?

Sure, we've seen morbiters do well in the tournaments because we were limited to picking a single ship but how do they perform in regular lobbies? They are powerful but have several counters starting with anything making use of PD. We've seen ion rammers and UL nuke orbiters do very well against them and other ship archetypes as well.

How do we justify nerfing missiles and not TB rails? They have just as much success if not more. I'm sure Salephz would back me up here in saying that they are impressively strong against the majority of archetypes. I'm not saying TB rails necessarily need a nerf but it's a good comparison.

Additionally, if it must be done. How would we propose to nerf them without creating a power vacuum which increases the success rate of other archetypes more than it should?

-Let's say you tune down missiles damage, anything with good shield regen just got a buff and can potentially outright beat morbiters when it use to be a close matchup
Another example, take a look at Luna's ion rammer, it counters morbiters about 50% of the time or more. You've now increased the chances of it winning that matchup.

-Limit the arc of missiles? Ships such as avoiders will now have a field day against them and those with high acceleration can easily dodge.

-Limit the lifespan? The speed meta just got even stronger. Anything fast enough to dodge the first pass may not have to worry anymore as the missiles will die out before their second pass.

Small changes won't have the desired effect, anything with a stronger impact will potentially result in the above.

Anyhow, lots of people are demanding a missile nerf without a clear and reasonable approach to doing so. That's dangerous for game balance and enjoyment, at least that's what I believe.

[upbeat ridge]

well, it's easy to use for the same amout of success

too easy

[snow seal]

tbs require a minimum amount of skill to win with

[sweet saffron]

totally realistic solution (sarcasm): missiles have to follow your cursor

[raven fern]

Due to the nature of the weapon that isn't avoidable. As it stands, it's a fire and forget weapon so maybe the mechanic behind the use of missiles should be changed?.We can nerf it but then we risk just having a result similar to flak. Which is nobody using it because everything else can do better

[jagged flume]

I personally having extensively seen their performance as well as played against them and seen their prevalence firsthand, am of the opinion that missiles are overtuned, and warrant a nerf. As you've pointed it out here it's obviously a complex issue that any one solution will have unintended side effects, but arguably said side effects are going to be far less of a problem than how consistently and accessibly powerful they are and against such a truly massive wide arrangement of opposing ships. It's not just that it's a strong pick against a few archetypes it counters, as much as it is the case that it's an excellent pick against a majority of archetypes.

My idea to nerf them, as it has been for a while now, has been to reduce their lifespan and rate of acceleration. No matter what your stance is on the matter, one has to agree that having to dodge the same projectile three times is silly, and them being capable of chasing you across the map while your opponent effectively twiddles their thumbs ludicrous. I am solid in this conviction, and given that the current state of the game, balanced as it is due to my efforts, I feel as though renders this intuition as trustworthy, or at the very least worth pursuing and refining further.

.
As for flak being useless specifically, it's the case that there's multiple reasons without parallels. It has overlap in it's niche, insufficient rotation speed, huge ammo cost logistically and literally, and other issues that it's direct alternative of point defense does not. I can confirm that missiles will remain a main stay despite any nerfs given that there is no alternatives that cover the same brand of a constant barrage of fire from out of range from the hardest part of your ship for your opponent to get to.
.
The reason for not nerfing tractor beams, or buffing blasters despite my proficient use of them as another example, is on the basis that these are significantly less prevalent and rarely as successful, while simultaneously it being the case that nobody else can use the specific weapons and tools remotely as successfully as players who are excellent at the game. There was what, seven players who brought morbiters, but only one who brought a tb rail and nobody that brought an avoider?

[chilly barn]

flack seems really op in dom but also I've barley played dom

[jagged flume]

@raven fern is there any of your points you feel I left unadressed

[upbeat ridge]

lmao no; they're outdone by cannons in terms of value and dps

if anyone's wondering about why boomeranging is a problem… have this vid of classic: https://youtu.be/YrKtNv0PauU

[raven fern]

I definitely agree with the issue of the skill ceiling being much lower with missiles than any other weapon. However, it is inherent due to the nature of the weapon itself.
Shouldn't we instead focus on changing that and propose implementations to raise the skill level required in order for players to achieve the same level of success?

If we pursue your idea, nerfing the lifespan and rate of acceleration sufficiently so that missiles can no longer make multiple passes entails allowing most ships with a decent amount of speed or manoeuvrability to now completely dictate the pace of the battle and probably remove any possibility for the missile user to achieve victory. A morbiter deals damage either through a constant barrage which chips away at the opponents ship or by unleashing so many volleys that the opponent can no longer dodge them all as they make multiple passes coming from all sides. It becomes helpless if an insufficient amount reaches the target and no amount of piloting skill can change that.
In other words, we are punishing players for using missiles and encouraging them to move on to another archetype where their skill can make a difference.

Seven players brought morbiters because they are indeed accessibly powerful. Other designs that perform just as well are either harder to design, harder to pilot or both. A couple of them more than capable of beating morbiters were present at the tournament but got knocked out early. Such as Slowking's UL nuke orbiter which would've been perfect for the task.

It seems that players are less annoyed by the result than by how easy it is to achieve it.
Which brings me back to the point of increasing the skill cap through a change in missile gameplay instead of a nerf which would just make the weapon less appealing to play if at all competitively.

[desert sky]

heh my pc still down and i have less that 3 ships total in my folder
wait hold on i do have 3 avoider

...is is lag banned here?

[jagged flume]

No, feel free to join

[jagged flume]

Thank you for the excellent link Jun0, and demonstrating the example of how irritating missiles can be right now where a random set of projectiles can often and repeatedly just come from off screen and instantly kill you. That's not anything but unexpected and irritating, and is often a consistent behavior that pilots often choose to try and reproduce due to how effective it is.

The skill ceiling being lower isn't what I was trying to say and I disagree that it's a factor. Naturally different playstyles will be more intensive, but that's wholly irrelevant.

HE missiles are the fire and forget weapon, it is only natural that they be easy to use, but to posit that they have a low skill ceiling is strictly incorrect. Expert players of their craft such as 0neye and Quiximo can do fantastic things, directing missiles, choosing when and how to launch them, choosing targets, accounting for rotation, body blocking and harassing opponents physically, among other things all allow for a skilled player to take full advantage of what they offer. You need only check the recent tournament for Przyjem's exceptional positioning and how it corralled other players, using very similar ships, and did huge amounts of unpunished damage.

The point I was trying to establish was that despite the massive skill ceiling that players can reach into, clearly it isn't necessary, because the inherent strength of missiles overcomes this. Any skill or finesse that the opponent might have is obliterated by the fact that you have the ultra consistent fire and forget weapon that will hit its opponent. That is what I would say is the issue is that people have been voicing.

In my mind an exceedingly simple nerf, and a slight one at that, is going to be far more beneficial than fundamentally rewriting the entire identity and use of one of the oldest and most unique weapons in the game, as well as an order of magnitude easier to try and impliment.

[frank pecan]

(Because the content I want to express is quite complex and was typed fast, for the convenience of typing, I directly converted the following content from Chinese to English through translation software. If there are any errors, please forgive me...)

I believe our original intention in hosting the Cosmoter Championship was to entertain through competition, encourage innovation, and reward players for their achievements, rather than frantically pursuing the best solution in a system. Championships are not military conflicts in reality: we do not prioritize winning; The balance relationship we are based on is not determined by extensive social and physical limitations, but rather developed by a programmer and a group of players. Therefore, I believe that we have the need and full ability to choose to intervene in the form of the tournament.

As for missile orbiters, as Saris emphasized earlier, I believe their biggest problem is being too versatile, as well as being low risk, low investment, but high yield. When everyone needs to face the restraint relationship between ship types and the uneven skills of players, the benefits of using missile orbiters are really too great. They can indeed be highly restrained by specific ship types, and the upper limit may not be as strong as some ships, but being too strong does not need to be invincible. It only needs to make using it more profitable overall than using other ship types. Overall, I agree with the assertion that missile orbiters are too dominant in the competition.

Moreover, in the May tournament, the missile orbiter had already shone brightly. I am not questioning the legitimacy of the seven players who used missile orbiters in the May Championships, as they only made the most appropriate judgments based on their own understanding after the new competition rules emerged. But with the May Championships already in place, there is a repeat of a missile orbiter melee If that's the case, CCC may not be willing to watch the live broadcast with you in the early morning. The competition in elimination mode could have been exciting.

However, just a debate between a few people is not enough to determine whether a certain ship type should be removed from the competition. I think it would be better for us to have a more formal vote, conducted by all players who have signed up for the competition (and perhaps respected and organized players). To avoid potential conflicts, anonymous voting may be used until the end of the competition registration. Before the voting result is determined, players who are willing to use missile orbiters can send a lineup with and without missile orbiters.

(Chinese version, in case any missunderstand caused by my transelator:)
我相信我们举办Cosmoteer锦标赛的初衷是通过竞技来娱乐，并鼓励创新，奖励那些卓有成就的玩家，而不是疯狂追求一套体系中的最优解。锦标赛不是现实中的军事冲突：我们不是以求胜作为最高目标；我们基于的平衡关系不是广泛的社会和物理限制所决定的，而是一位程序员和一众玩家一起发展出来的。因此我认为我们有需要，也完全有能力有权利选择对锦标赛的形式加以干预。

就导弹绕轨器来说，正如前面Saris所强调的，我认为它们最大的问题是过于通用，以及低风险低投入但高收获。当大家都需要面对船型之间的克制关系和玩家技巧的参差不齐时，使用导弹绕轨器的收益就实在太大了。它们确实能被特定船型高度克制，上限也许也没有某些船强，但是过于强大不需要是无敌，它只需要使使用它在整体上比使用其它船型收益更高就行。总体来说，我认同导弹绕轨器在比赛中过于强势的论断。
何况在五月的锦标赛中，导弹绕轨器已经大放光彩了。我不是在质疑五月锦标赛中那七位使用导弹绕轨器的选手的正当性，毕竟它们只是在新赛制规则出现后就自己的理解做出了最适宜的判断。但在已经有五月锦标塞的情况下重现一次导弹绕轨器大乱斗......如果是这样的话CCC可能没人会愿意凌晨守着直播陪你们了。淘汰模式的竞技本可以精彩。

不过仅仅是几个人之间的辩论我认为确实不足以决断是否应该把某个船型挪出比赛。我认为我们最好有一个更加正式的投票，由所有报名参赛的（也许还有受尊敬的和组织赛事的？）玩家进行，为了避免潜在冲突也许采用匿名投票，一直持续到比赛报名结束。在投票结果未定前，有意愿使用导弹绕轨器的玩家可以分别发一个含导弹绕轨器和不含导弹绕轨器版本的阵容。

➡️ In short:
*We adjust tournament rule to improve the game, not just following game rule.
*I think missle orbitors are tactically overpowered (especially) when ship lineup is limited.
*I think this nerf should be voted by attenders.⬅️

[jagged flume]

Thanks for your detailed input! There wasn't any errors that I noticed. Part of the deliberation is that instead of being a tournament specific thing, it's possible for changes to be tested and implimented for the entire game to hopefully improve its overall balance, not to just have a more balanced tournament

[frank pecan]

Specifically, on how do we implement this limitation I think all the proposals that can be accepted by some contestants can be put into the voting.

Technically speaking, I hold a pessimistic attitude towards nerfing on the design and usage details of missile orbiters: setting a design limit may lead to too many things and controversies that need to be standardized, while limiting usage methods may intentionally or unintentionally evolve into a referee's nightmare, and these controversies can easily touch everyone's understanding of the core gameplay. I am more inclined to useage restrictions, such as prohibiting the use of missile orbiters in multiple rounds, giving opponents greater lineup options when it comes to facing missile orbiters, and also the worst but easiest option of course: giving missile orbiters a June holiday off from tournament. And etc. These limitations, limited to the competition format, should be sufficient to absorb many contradictions as long as they are recognized by players.

My idea is to give each ship type a "universal score" and a "difficulty score", and to limit the score for each player. A ship type that is easy to operate and moderately high will occupy players' scores for battle. However, this scoring mechanism is still too idealistic. On the one hand, it is difficult for us to evaluate it, and on the other hand, it is also difficult to calculate the balance of job division. Moreover, this system is difficult to handle innovation ships and innovative tactics.

[errant forge]

well... there is hardcounters to Morbiter, at the beggining of the tournament i knew i have no chance to win against slowking's UL Nuke Orbiter, however there is much more archetypes that can counter Morbiter, EVEN Luna's Ion Rammer was able to beat me after detaching her front armor... speed, aimable prisms and tough sides wasnt that easy

of course morbiter is powerful thing i absolutly know that, but not as powerful to limit usage of whole archetype

also im nearly sure, after some time meta gonna be refined by players who builds ships that can counter morbiters

[desert hornet]

might play this time

[frank pecan]

(By the way just a remind, remember besides elim there is also dom that is a competeive game mod? Maybe July would be great time for us to have the second dom tournament)

[errant forge]

yess

also would be nice if more elim players would try their best in dom

like me in elim :agony:

[frank pecan]

(We offer whole set of teaching in game if you are interested)

[errant forge]

i think they understand the game but trouble with micro

[frank pecan]

Also missing up with tactic methods leads to mistake roll so.

Definatly need some more practice.

[errant forge]

however some of them played dom in classic

like quiximo

thats his ship i guess

[unkempt gulch]

认同 那些导弹绕轨器简直是同时折磨选手和观众们 非导弹选手会被淘汰而观众只能看到重复的对战让整个比赛无聊且没有新意

[upbeat ridge]

so... "elim players play SCII"

[unkempt gulch]

dom will be more simpler（

[upbeat ridge]

well it looks a lot like a fully-fledged rts to me

[unkempt gulch]

no

is rtt

[hollow socket]

No hotkeys to ships though

[hollow socket]

No hotkeys to ships though

[sleek blade]

what about flak buff tho

imo make flak cheaper but I havent used them much so idk

[frank pecan]

@sleek bladeIs it normal that I am seeing you sending triple? Cause one of my friend is also sending me like that.

[sleek blade]

discord is bugging out for me somehow

[gilded spindle]

recent discord bug

pretty sure they're having server issues

recent discord bug

pretty sure they're having server issues

[desert sky]

i'm pretty sure yeah

[hazy brook]

yeah everyone is saying things multiple times for me

[errant forge]

yeah some issues are here

yeah some issues are here

yeah some issues are here

[unkempt gulch]

bug

i have encountered the same problem。。

[errant forge]

It seems taking three morbiters and banning their hardcounters is best idea for tournament 😃

[chilly barn]

@jagged flume is seeding randomized or do you pick?

[chilly barn]

Saris was going to make rule where you cant havr the same weapon on two ships

To stop that

[errant forge]

Yeah.. just joking ofc
I wont do that even if that would be possible

[desert sky]

hold on

i can't bring three avoider

[surreal pecan]

Nobody should repeat my mistake.

No not the going with morbiter one the failing to TB because lack of practice one.

[errant forge]

What if someone wants to use Avoider and Wall Orbiter, for example

[chilly barn]

well, they can't

because there is no real clear way to define archetypes, that's the only way to stop 3x of the same ship

an overly simplistic view of the tourney, but yeah this could be kinda what ship selection looks like.
A is doing every possibility, B every possibility for the first one, and is doing "best" as determined by me for the second time
B gets a hardcounter almost every time

unless you take out their rock when they have already taken out your scissors, you've won

it seems like the first seed advantage is real
time to do this with a acutal cosmoteer ship selection

I think better ban selection would be 1 ban for lower seed, 2 ban for higher seed, 1 ban for lower seed

[chilly barn]

the only "mirror match" is because of a bad pick from the higher seed

[desert sky]

that the issue with cashprice

[chilly barn]

yeah, so 1-2-1 banning is better

it goes to a mirror match unless higher seed is dumb enough to not ban the one that has a hard counter on one of their 2 remaining ships

we need 1-2-1 banning unless we want to have 1st seed dominate, at least according to these sheets

Obviously there's still some nuance here but 1-1-1-1 banning seems like the higher seed can always get the best matchup for them on the ship that the opponent chooses

so unless one of their ship looses to all three of the lower seed's ships, the higher seed wins

PLEASE tell me if my theory is wrong, I'd like it to be

[snow seal]

what on earth

[chilly barn]

Maybe i should have wrote it in a covesive manner

[sweet saffron]

so a minimum of 3 and maximum of 15?

[hollow socket]

Yes

[quartz summit]

The underdog went with the flow of the river, no one can stand against the rating of originality

[snow seal]

do ppl not notice the imposter??

[desert sky]

btw will all tourney from now will have a cashprice or that just a test?
i sure hope it's jsut a test

[white apex]

why

money is good

will make ppl even more salty though lol

[stone zephyr]

so true

[raven fern]

If people get salty over 30 bucks then they have an issue haha

[errant forge]

I hope players like quximo and omeye gonna play this time

Nugg and pine too

[sleek blade]

even better would be 5 loadouts so you can favorite a ship but I dont even have two ships

[serene latch]

yea ik slowk

[desert sky]

i think i'm know for being blind

[hollow socket]

If I win the 30 cash prize, I can use it to buy cosmoteer for the third time

[snow seal]

@wind ermine react agony to that please

[stone zephyr]

i got you

[hazy brook]

I CAN BUY UNLIMITED ROBUX if i win

[sharp bane]

this makes sense to me! It's also how the game Settlers of Catan balances itself out, with the person choosing their location first also choosing their second location last

[surreal pecan]

Originality is Underrated.

Slowking is such a chad.

[short tartan]

where is the rules document?

[errant forge]

On excelsior

[short tartan]

oh ok

[surreal pecan]

#announcements message

.....I feel like this will have a way larger audience because of the cash prize and the post in #announcements

Overall the competitive community is slowly but steadily growing, very nice stuff.

[wicked rose]

how many individual players can join a match?

I've never tried multiplayer so I have no clue

[short tartan]

sorry I missed that

[surreal pecan]

Up to 8

[wicked rose]

I was thinking it be like an eve online type of armada

[snow seal]

also #announcements

[chilly barn]

really interesting picking going on here

what's the best option for each of us?

I"m acutally not sure

and I bet my counter matrix is wrong too

there's no rule against 3x of the same ship yet so I might be overthinking it and meta is 3x morbiter
but if you can't do 3x of the same ship the metagame is real interesting

[snow seal]

??

saris probably bans ur morb every time

u should ban his avoider every time

[chilly barn]

tell me if the win/loss matrix is fair

not really a matrix but whatever

[snow seal]

huh?

no i'm really confused

in this matchup, i bet u will be playing ion every round

[chilly barn]

morbiter beats ion frigate and dc trap, but is mixed vs avoider
right?

[snow seal]

all of his ships do well against them

and the best shot u have is ion mirror

but his ion is probably better because it can spend more on dps than u

[snow seal]

idk about dc trap but i assume this is correct

ur ion rammer loses to avoider and dc trap

[chilly barn]

My ion rammer wins vs avoider, looses vs dc trap, and is mixed vs ion frigate

My dc rammer wins vs the ion frigate, looses vs the DC trap, and is mixed vs avoider

[snow seal]

but mixed? probably still loses to ion cruiser

ion rammer never wins against avoider

if u are playing saris

[chilly barn]

maybe, ion rammer is faster than avoider tho

I haven't played against saris enough latley

[snow seal]

we in game !!

[chilly barn]

blah blah blah playing the game
why the heck would you do that when you can talk about playing the game

[snow seal]

wtf

[chilly barn]

I have it dual monitor so I can see the game, I"m fine

[chilly barn]

yeah so having my ion rammer in this game is not fun thought because I always loose then
maybe could beat dc trap

actually probably could lol

[snow seal]

no..

it has enough armor that it tanks the ram

and full forward he rams slowing u down so much that the otherone just shoots u from the back

[chilly barn]

yeah well then I just loose bc having one ship that looses to three of oponent's ships is instant loss for you

[chilly barn]

yeah also no one wants to fight a missile kite so ykykyk

[vital spindle]

Dear god missile kites are painful

All kites are painful

[serene latch]

alright time to bring this bad boy in

[vital spindle]

Get out

[serene latch]

:(

[vital spindle]

goddamn kites

ruined my gemoetry test too

[snow seal]

@jagged flume thinking about it, instead of getting first ban for losing/being seeded higher.. they should be able to choose if they want the first ban or second double ban

after the first ship is banned, u have more information on what to do and so i feel it is advantageous to be the second person banning ships

but maybe some people disagree saying it's a disadvantage to ban second..

which is why having the choice in banning first/second would be optimal for everyone

[upbeat ridge]

cash price incentive

[short tartan]

what is a kite? is it just a ship with a lot of side thrust?

[vocal cloak]

kite are an archetype that's entire purpose is to avoid direct engagement by playing at max distance

so large amount of rear thrust

and usually rails or missiles but there are some ions kites

[short tartan]

ah

[desert sky]

also (and mostly) the name of a maneuver*

like i can kite dc brick with an avoider

[hollow socket]

kiting is a playstyle

a pretty popular one aswell

[surreal pecan]

If only 😔

[surreal pecan]

What is this?

[surreal pecan]

LMAO

[surreal pecan]

Ion kites need to have a lot of forward thrust too though to constantly engage and disengage so I consider it a ''diver.'' No that is not an official term.

[naive lion]

@jagged flume given the rules of the tourney, if i were to use these asymmetric traps as one of my loadouts, would i then not be allowed to have either of my other loadouts use rails or missiles?

[white apex]

can all of my ships have pd or tb on them

like a pd/tb wall orbi and a tb railfan w/ pd wings on it

[jagged flume]

Yes. And PD counts as a weapon, so no, but TB doesn't, so yes

[white apex]

so only one of my ships can have pd on it?

but all of them can have tb

and my wall with prism armor would not be allowed if i also brought something with an ion core?

[snow seal]

can u organize these responses please

i have a severe lack in brain function

[white apex]

> do this for quotes

[jagged flume]

I understand I need to be accurate but now I want to be more confusing

[sweet saffron]

is there a set amount of x-weapon allowed before it's banned from being used on other ships or is it more or less up to you to decide

[snow seal]

what about eb?

would someone be able to bring a ion ship with eb and also an orbital wall with eb?

[jagged flume]

Gameknight's asymmetric traps
Using this ship would barr rails, PD, and EMP from your other ship slots
Air's question
TB isn't exclusive, PD is
Iontinker's question
If you use anywhere between 1 and infinite of an X weapon then you cannot use X weapon on the other loadouts

[white apex]

brueh so one of my ships just isn't allowed to cope with missiles

ig i can just ban all missiles

[jagged flume]

And only one of their ships can force you to seethe with missiles

[white apex]

also is the missile launcher a single weapon or is each missile type its own thing

[jagged flume]

Latter

[white apex]

can i change them midfight

[jagged flume]

If you change them it counts as both

[sweet saffron]

why on earth

why would you

[jagged flume]

Never underestimate the unexpected Iontinker

[white apex]

3 m orbis but they just have different missiles in the starting loadout

[white apex]

prism armor does count as a weapon?

[jagged flume]

Prisms aren't a weapon

They're often used in tandem with one but cannot deal damage by themself

[sweet saffron]

I imagine that if the launchers are set to HE but all you have stored is EMP then it's counting as EMP

[white apex]

can u make a list of all things deemed "weapon" and edge cases for them (like missiles)

[jagged flume]

But where would I put it on the rules document. Hrmm

[white apex]

50 page lawyer document for cosmoteer tourney lol

if only 1 ship can have eb wouldn't shields be really strong?

[jagged flume]

Disruptors, and you have EMPs available

Or raw firepower because shields can easily be pierced the majority of the time

[white apex]

also it should probably say who gets the discord role

[jagged flume]

Thanks, fixed

[white apex]

o btw how will u see ur opponent's loadouts

[sweet saffron]

hold on, I could just make three sumo ships each with a little ship to stay in the ring

[white apex]

also up to 3?

[sweet saffron]

three loadouts with 5 ships max per loadout

[white apex]

there probably shouldn't be periods here to be consistent with the rest of the lits

[white apex]

it says up to 3

currently

[sweet saffron]

is it meant to be exactly three

[white apex]

probably, otherwise the oppoent can just ban every ship u have

[jagged flume]

~If you only bring one loadout then it just can't be banned~~

[white apex]

what about 2

should probably add that to the rules

[jagged flume]

Is that not intuitive

[white apex]

does this only include out of game editing and is everything u can do while ingame fair?

ex. i save the ship while in the sun radius so half of the otuline is white

also u can just completely hide previews by saving under certain circumstances in multiplayer

also how r aesthetic mods covered

[sweet saffron]

tldr: making it so it doesn't show your ship properly is not allowed

[jagged flume]

In any way means in any way, including ingame methods. However as you'll be sending your ships to me I'll be modifying them to be vanilla anyhow

[white apex]

ok so it doesn't actually matter if we modify it bc ur going to be resaving it anyways?

[desert sky]

i didin't realise up to 3 meant i could bring only one

[sweet saffron]

I didn't notice the "up to" either

[white apex]

no, does it mean u ban until there's 1 ship left? if so, it should probably say that

*loadout

[snow seal]

hm shouldnt it be higher seed? or idk what u want saris

[jagged flume]

It's weird because "high seed" means a lower number

[snow seal]

first seed is lower number.. hmmm

higher seeded ?

higher seeding player

idk i gotta go

[naive lion]

Doesn't this present the same problem that coolgamer came up with - bringing three of the same ships would be equivalent to only bringing one ship. So you can't ban the single ship but they can ban the counters to the ship.

[jagged flume]

Yes that's true. Revised.

[serene latch]

so you must have three distinct loadouts? no more, no less?

[sweet saffron]

why not pick loadouts before the match

[white apex]

so that coutnerpicking has a concrete solution that's not that 2 pickers agreeing

[serene latch]

if this is the case, then there does arise the possible issue of a loadout consuming all forms of weapons before the third loadout, meaning the third loadout cannot use weapons

[chilly barn]

What

Morbin time

[serene latch]

@chilly barn

[chilly barn]

Ty

Yesss I get to think about game theory

How do we determine 3rd if its single elim?

[jagged flume]

Loser picks first

[chilly barn]

How does that determine 3rd?

[jagged flume]

Whoever lost the second round lost

[surreal pecan]

PD counting as a weapon is really silly in my eyes.

It is something you randomly dot around your ship.

[vocal cloak]

welp i know what im perma banning

[surreal pecan]

Imagine the loopholing cappabilities.

[errant forge]

No way... thats actually pretty stupid
I cam bring only Morbiter and ban my opponent's hardcounters to morbi

[jagged flume]

.

[errant forge]

Oh, alright my bad

[jagged flume]

You're fine

Participating?

[errant forge]

Working on my ships currently, not sure if im gonna finish them before tournament so im not signing up for now

[snow seal]

study up lol

[errant forge]

Of course everyone gonna ban my great morbiter

[white apex]

w/ my current ships it's not possible to attend bc all of them have pd

other than 1

[surreal pecan]

Greatest fan of PD needing to cope with only 33% his ships being PD

Sad.

I think of bringing a morbiter hardcounter as one of my ships at least.

[hollow socket]

Any ship can be a pd wall, just add no sustain pd to the sides

[surreal pecan]

Too bad you're only allowed to use one type of weapon.

[sleek blade]

planning might be harder than building the ships on this one

[chilly barn]

Planning fun 🙂

But also I need to get much better with tb rail

[upbeat ridge]

looks like you have a pick

good luck fielding it, though

[white apex]

how will we see opponent loadouts

[short tartan]

I would assume that either the ship will be displayed in the ship chooser or there will be pinned messages in this channel

[chilly barn]

Lol

If I have a morbiter and a tb rail
And then I add on something else, maybe dc rammer

They have to have all of their ships not loose to whatever ship they pick from me

[serene latch]

if i join the tourney, imma give in to the meta :(

i'll try to make it unique at least

[snow seal]

u kinda have all the stuff u need

eb and nukes overlapping

[vital spindle]

TB rail

Join us

[snow seal]

he has

[upbeat ridge]

damn it do you want me to bring a certain ship

[vital spindle]

Do you have time to talk about our lord and savior TB rail today?

[upbeat ridge]

no

[vital spindle]

Make time

[upbeat ridge]

too busy being able to kill them

[vital spindle]

Really? I wanna see it

[snow seal]

https://discord.com/channels/546229904488923141/1101151242861957131

[snow seal]

with circulado?? T^T

[vital spindle]

Pain

[upbeat ridge]

once you can kill missile orbiters, the meta becomes fun

[vital spindle]

Depends on who is piloting the morbiter

[upbeat ridge]

assume ≥expert skill

[vital spindle]

Ehhhhh I’ve won against pretty well piloted morbiters before but nothing to expert level

Fighting a morbiter just puts you on a clock, if you can deal a critical blow before the missiles break your armor

[upbeat ridge]

it also depends on the morbi's architecture; blueshift does better than the traditional orbiter layout

[jagged flume]

Qawa what do you mean give in you're supposed to be as sweaty as possible, doubly so now that there's an actual prize too

[vital spindle]

Yeah morbiters like this aren’t bad as you can cut the walkways leading to the missile segments

Fortunately that is kinda the meta right now

[serene latch]

have you noticed how i've been stepping out of my comfort zone recently, even during moments where im 'supposed' to be competitive?

(last tourney)

[upbeat ridge]

the meta also depends on piloting skill tbh

[serene latch]

i've also tried to not be confined by the meta

[vital spindle]

When it comes to this matchup you do have to be pretty skilled when piloting the morbiter as any slight mistake can lead to your side being shown

[serene latch]

i have 6 tb rail ships, but they're basically all clones of each other so it's more like 2

[vital spindle]

Bring ‘em

[serene latch]

only allowed 1 rail loadout in the tourney

[vital spindle]

I might join the tourney but I only have one ship I can pilot well

[serene latch]

same

[vital spindle]

I have a good morbiter but I suck at piloting them

I’m considering making an avoider but it would literally be look at saris’ design and control C control V

[serene latch]

not all avoiders have to use lasers

[vital spindle]

The best ones do

[serene latch]

nuke avoiders are alright

[vital spindle]

Nukes are an interesting concept but take exceptional skill to use fully

[upbeat ridge]

rail avoiders :agony:

[serene latch]

why not both

this horrible ship

lol

[upbeat ridge]

doesn't work as well

[serene latch]

come to think of it, i've never seen a pure rail avoider before

[vital spindle]

Saris better start making one

[upbeat ridge]

yo

[vital spindle]

yo

[upbeat ridge]

i've done rail pd but slowk's done pure rail in classic

does it do well? not anymore
does it kill everything? if you play your cards right

[vital spindle]

Interesting

In this tourney ships are hidden right?

If not I could literally bring PD wall and TB rail

[snow seal]

no

ur opponent definitely knows what ships u have

[upbeat ridge]

that's why there's a ban system

[vital spindle]

Well PD wall to scare away kites and morbiters

[snow seal]

they could just ban it

[vital spindle]

That is true

[jagged flume]

I feel an orbital wall with rails would do better, or a pair of rail traps. Rails are about getting the right angle with precision to make up for damage, and avoiders are about battering your opponent and jockying in front of them. Rails are so heavy and low damage output if they have armor, right?

[serene latch]

@jagged flume since you're here, i wanted to ask

for the ban system, how do the opponents know what ship you have? will it be publicly posted or is it like they see the ship icon? or something else entirely?

[vital spindle]

Yeah what is the ban system exactly, is it just you can’t use ships if the mods think you’re abusing them?

[serene latch]

think of draft pick

[jagged flume]

The lobbies will have 4.5mil budgets and host assigned ships. Both player's slots will be filled, one player says "I don't like option A" and then the host removes option A, and so forth

[vital spindle]

I see

So reverse draft pick

[jagged flume]

Sequential banning

[serene latch]

alright ty

[vital spindle]

Who gets the first pick?

[serene latch]

oh also

[vocal cloak]

Will there be extra labels on the ships like what weapons it uses and etc?

[serene latch]

wouldn't it be better if the loser got to choose whether they wanted to pick first or second, rather than just picking first?

[jagged flume]

The higher seed (more roughly skilled player) gets to choose if they or the opponent pick first. After that, the loser of the previous bout chooses who picks first

[serene latch]

.

[upbeat ridge]

^^; railtraps at this point are akin to dual orbiter walls i feel

[vital spindle]

What happens if 2 players are around equally matched?

[serene latch]

i can think of a scenario where picking second is better

[jagged flume]

Read what I said, Qawa

[jagged flume]

I don't think it'll ever be particularly close but it's easy enough to randomise in the groups of people who are that close

If players 2~4 are the same skill level then it'd go 1 - [2~4 random] - 5, if that makes sense

[serene latch]

i still stand by my opinion that the loser should have the option of whether or not they want to go first, rather than being forced to pick first. I can think of a scenario where picking second is more beneficial than picking first, so this current system can actually make the loser of the former bout more likely to lose again.

[jagged flume]

You still didn't read what I said because I directly said that the loser gets to pick who goes first

[vocal cloak]

Higer seed is the loser qawa

[serene latch]

i did read what you said, i was making a suggestion and making sure you understand why i made the suggestion

[vocal cloak]

U getto choose to be first or second as loser

[serene latch]

OH

[jagged flume]

Do x
I'm already doing x
DO X
I'm already doing x 💀

[serene latch]

i reread

my eyes

skipped tghe part

where it said

[vocal cloak]

Bruh

[serene latch]

"gets to pick who"

maybe i should go sleep

[jagged flume]

No kidding

[errant forge]

Sounds good

[jagged flume]

It is good

Unfortunately I've no one to assist me thus far so it'll likely be just me doing lobby stuff

[vocal cloak]

Saris since you removed the ping restriction i assume you found a way to mitigate lag?

Why are you telling people your game plan lol

[vital spindle]

Meh

Good point

[jagged flume]

Nope. I'd love ideas

Future tournaments won't be teams and will likely utilize lower budgets to deal with it

[vital spindle]

Now kine Id if I go against you you know what NOT to do right?

[vocal cloak]

Yes

Idk if im gonna join or not

The tourney is at 3am

[vital spindle]

Actually ima go make sure I can actually pull up to it

[vocal cloak]

The only idea i can think off is having multiple host in different regions but considering that you are running this alone thas not an option probably

[jagged flume]

If you wanna send me 10k to move to Europe I will

[vital spindle]

Start a kickstarter

[jagged flume]

Helluva concept

No, nobody is really as available as I am to burn time hosting unfortunately or fortunately. I'm looking off and on but haven't made progress