Tournament Chat

[jagged flume]

@bright anchor @snow seal

[snow seal]

oh

[bright anchor]

O

Not the saris

[upbeat ridge]

i feel like sale loses by pd

[snow seal]

why not keep uh

slowk

[jagged flume]

Give players breaks

[snow seal]

bruh

okay fair

[white apex]

yesterday i accidentally set my alarms for tomorow

[upbeat ridge]

hah

[wind blaze]

F

[gilded spindle]

eip

[desert hornet]

f

[gilded spindle]

rip

[jagged flume]

Well at the very least now that you've told me you won't be blacklisted from the next tournament

[upbeat ridge]

see this mATCH IS WHY I HATE KITERS

caps

[queen kite]

blacklisted sounds interesting

[gilded spindle]

bruh

[topaz rune]

I almost got to take your place 🥲

[jagged flume]

You're one of the main kite users :agony:

[gilded spindle]

I just said that in vc

[white apex]

anyways the stuff i was going to use

[upbeat ridge]

i did not use a kite this entire tournament

[queen kite]

so if people dont check in they get blacklisted?

[upbeat ridge]

wait what tou-
got kited buddy

[gilded spindle]

hou-

[jagged flume]

If they check in then fail to show up and then not give a heads up or tell me in any way for any reason

Then you'll be barred from the next tournament, because that's ridiculous and wreaks havoc with planning

[upbeat ridge]

i only use them once or twice then pack them up for a later date

[trim kestrel]

I took some tips from the tournament matches and I think I might have the most effective ship ever created

[swift heart]

uh

[desert hornet]

eye rape

[sharp bane]

really missing the agony emoji on this server

[hollow socket]

as have i

[safe marsh]

Yo third meltybrain user

[upbeat ridge]

finally remebered that ssh key huh

[hollow socket]

longer railfan is what i took from it

[sharp bane]

you really combined all of the best unique strategies of this tournament polar

[upbeat ridge]

just play kiters

[snow seal]

DONT SCREW ME

[kindred arrow]

kiters all in

[gilded spindle]

use the nuke wall vs his avoider

[autumn maple]

kiters boringness

[upbeat ridge]

salephz clearly cancerous tumors win games

stick with ot

[dense pewter]

if you want we can make an unofficial bo3 with our tourne ships at some point in the future. also made that now with rose.

its fun. but right now i wont have time anymore

[sharp bane]

I'm surprised we've not seen missile orbiters and deck cannon rammers in semi-finals yet?

[dense pewter]

bs deck cannons aint good in meta.

[still sail]

where's this tournament at?

[desert hornet]

we've only seen this semi-finals match

[swift heart]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSzcm3T6koc&ab_channel=SarisWinterwisp

[upbeat ridge]

bit late ro see the whoop from your former students

[snow seal]

fr blundered the second one

the default attack preset while i was tryna save my ship from fire

[sharp bane]

rip, rose has now won 2 rounds thanks to asteroids

[snow seal]

rock?

[sharp bane]

at least you didn't blunder as hard as me

[snow seal]

i didn't hit a rock

[jagged flume]

The rock provides!

[snow seal]

did i hit a rock?

[trim kestrel]

I've fixed the last flaw and I have now achieved perfection

[bright anchor]

Ahhhhh

[snow seal]

i dont remember hitting a rock

[sharp bane]

nah rose just used the rock to position

[bright anchor]

The rock provides

[snow seal]

rose i wanna do nukewall vs railfan now

[bright anchor]

Alr

I’ll host

[upbeat ridge]

lookslike thisisthemodern thinf

[snow seal]

i a

[kindred arrow]

lmao

[still sail]

lol

[desert hornet]

lol

[solemn oracle]

lol

[hollow socket]

quite a match

[solemn oracle]

that was really anticlimatic

[past fiber]

Is the oneshot ship a reference to the oneshot game or just a coincidence?

[lunar ice]

first it was coincidence

[jagged flume]

@bright anchor final match! Best out of five!

[white apex]

rose isn't new D:<

[sharp bane]

I think it's a reference to what slowking just did to that control room

[gilded spindle]

niko

.o.

[still sail]

Rose is fresh out of the oven

[hollow socket]

it was alpha inspired

[snow seal]

the only error i had was my ship's default attack distance is not kiting meaning that i let 2 of my rails get shot in the second match

i saved my ship with the crew management

[hollow socket]

i never considered kiters to be in the tournament

[snow seal]

zzz

[autumn maple]

i never considered that many missiles in the tournament xD

[snow seal]

there weren't that many missiles

[safe delta]

The rock provides indeed, Slowking touched the rock and then won 😄

[hollow socket]

we'll be better off next tournament, ze

[sharp bane]

the tournament was cursed by the enchantment of the 'rocks' password

[hollow socket]

rocks at every turn

[snow seal]

oh rose probably wins vs all of slowk's ships

[still sail]

probably

kites are lame af tho smh

[hollow socket]

hard to win when someone has hardcounters

i'll be bringing in a kiter next one

[swift heart]

THE ROCK PROVIDES

[snow seal]

2-1?

[still sail]

yes

[sharp bane]

yup, there's the thin margin for error right there.

[still sail]

avoiders can beat these walls without taking any damage but it's really not easy

[snow seal]

@-@

[still sail]

I reckon that the wall is still the best choice

[snow seal]

laser or deck cannon

[still sail]

deck cannon

[sharp bane]

yeah the armour would absorb multiple hits, but it would not be able to properly hide behind asteroids with that all-forward

[still sail]

wall would be to just chase the enemy

[snow seal]

what if rose just pushes the rock farther away

[still sail]

but it's not an easy move

slowking really isn't keen on the rock XD

[still sail]

hard

asteroids are eggregiously heavy afaik

[sharp bane]

they're playing duck duck goose now lmao

Niceee bait from rose

risky

[upbeat ridge]

ah yes

[still sail]

It's Rose's match to lose, slowking only has to bide his time

[sharp bane]

walt's modern patchnotes:

nerfed tag
added duck duck goose

[gilded nimbus]

Ultralight metaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[still sail]

avoiders are nowhere close to ultralights

also hello pyraeus

[sharp bane]

oh yeah, I had a question about ultralights: does a ship have to crew detach to be considered an ultralight?

[gilded nimbus]

Hey Gustav

[still sail]

nope

[gilded nimbus]

What is the difference then?

[still sail]

that's just one type of UL

[swift heart]

ring around the rosie

[still sail]

ring around the rose XD

wow that misplay

told you that he wasn' good around the rock

[gilded nimbus]

Sounds like avoiders and ultralights are awful close then, if one is a category which contains the other

[upbeat ridge]

nah screw that, lost a tournament to that

[still sail]

he hits it too much

[still sail]

ultralights are significantly faster and lighter

they also don't exist anymore and precede avoiders

[sharp bane]

lost to a ship that did crew detach or when trying to do it yourself?

[upbeat ridge]

latter

[gilded nimbus]

The ships we just saw, which are just shields guns and thruster modules to maximize the thrust:weight ratio, are what we called ultralights in tournament play

So I don't know what you're talking about

[still sail]

you don't know what you're talking about I created ultralights XD

[gilded nimbus]

uh huh

[sharp bane]

I would typically call any ship which uses light weapons (i.e not railguns) and has no armour an ultralight

why would they not exist anymore?

[still sail]

you can't get that much speed anymore

plus no more momentum tricks which they used pretty heavily

[sharp bane]

alright, I see

[buoyant karma]

oh god the tournammt is still going

[dense pewter]

Is final atm, Cant watch. Who wins?

[jagged flume]

Ultralights were typically just like the thumbnail ship but it dropped the side and front armor too

[hollow socket]

slowking is losing sadly

sadly as in he has nothing to counter kiters

[still sail]

I reckon the biggest difference was that they almost exclusively used huge thrusters

back when they had no rampup time

[autumn maple]

kiters sad win

[snow seal]

@safe marsh that was not funny

[autumn maple]

like orbiters in other tournaments xD

[sharp bane]

I guess comparing speed across versions is very difficult... but imo if ultralights as they once were no longer exist, we may as well call all light and fast ships ultralights now because there is no other category name for these ships

[gilded nimbus]

If anything I would say that an "avoider" ultralight is one that prioritizes strafing over forward or backward movement, but it's still an ultralight because of the design philosophy

[safe marsh]

I thought it was hilarious

[still sail]

in the end the way you'd play it is very different with momentum boosting and the likes, avoiders rn are much more reliant of spinning away enemy projectiles rather than just outranging the enemy XD

[gilded nimbus]

It'd be like saying I'm the one that invented missile barges just because I was using them back when Dallas was still playing

Which is just ridiculous

Archetypes evolve

[still sail]

I actually created the ULs tho? They were an actual thing back when engine rooms were added, they are a specific niche of the common fast wall

[upbeat ridge]

the last of the ultralights were ul nuke orbiters then

[snow seal]

alr ik how this ends

sleep time

9am

[still sail]

yeah

[upbeat ridge]

lol rip

[dense pewter]

Its final atm?

[sharp bane]

NO YOU DID NOT SALEPHZ

YOU DID NOT SEE THIS COMING

[swift heart]

the throw

[still sail]

I always believed in the cannon wall!

[upbeat ridge]

kites boring

[gilded nimbus]

You did pioneer the archetype, but saying that they no longer exist makes just as much sense as me saying missile barges no longer exist because new ones can use flak

[desert hornet]

gg and congrats slowk

and rose for getting so far so early

[upbeat ridge]

l to the kite

[gilded spindle]

I did a thing!

[dense pewter]

Slow won final?

[queen kite]

so now slowking gets a role for 2X champion

[glossy rampart]

well played slowking

[bright anchor]

GG

[buoyant karma]

nice job

[autumn maple]

gg

[white apex]

very epic

[upbeat ridge]

but what will saris get then

[hollow socket]

we need a consecutive champion role

[gilded spindle]

Could somebody ask rose to reconsidir

[azure goblet]

GG!

[kindred arrow]

gz Slow, also good job Rose

[autumn maple]

yeah wp from both

[azure goblet]

Well played

[upbeat ridge]

hm

[swift heart]

thanks for hosting and organizing the tournament saris!

[queen kite]

https://tenor.com/view/star-wars-lies-deception-everyday-more-gif-18108988

[dense pewter]

@gilded spindle Gz on winning.

lets play a bo3 or 5 in next days with our tourne ships. Already played Rose and wanna know how i would have done vs you

[autumn maple]

yeah rose won definitely

[dense pewter]

Who won now?

[bright anchor]

Slowking won

Not me

[dense pewter]

Kk

[azure goblet]

Very close though

[desert hornet]

yup

[jagged flume]

Yes Slowking won, sorry

[glossy rampart]

you did well though

[sharp bane]

big mood rose, I tend to loose most of my close tournaments to piloting mistakes

wp everyone!

fun tournament, here's to many more to come in cosmoteer modern

I recently saw the game mentioned in a completely unrelated discord server so it's getting popular :D

[upbeat ridge]

my main wish is kiters go to the hell

[jagged flume]

Definitely gonna be more of a monthly thing from here on out after December

[sharp bane]

what if someone else decided to host in december?

[queen kite]

saris plz look in general chat

[pine swallow]

already done????

[past fiber]

I have progressed further in this tournament than in the past, I hope it will be the same in the next one

[rough oracle]

Gg to both rose and slowking, one hell of a match

[still sail]

@jagged flume very nicely done Saris good tournament sadly I didn't wake up in time to annoy you

[queen kite]

saris why you dislike the image i posted

it came from the stream

[swift heart]

it was corrected

[hasty jolt]

It was very interesting to watch this tournament, thought me a lot about all kinds of strategies.

[rough oracle]

Watching the fights between the railfans and the cannon walls were unique

Interesting to see crystals used as a defense against the railguns

[hollow socket]

i wonder when we'll get the next tournament

[swift heart]

january

[pine swallow]

:)

[jagged flume]

From me anyway, others might host a december one

[pine swallow]

ah

but on january i will probably be too angry for the tournament

and literally the entire year 2023

[hasty jolt]

I might try participating in the next tournament despite only having the game for 1 month

[jagged flume]

It'll be three months by that point, and there were a ton of new additions

[still sail]

I might try participating in the next tournament

as a caster of course

[sharp bane]

too angry? How do you know your anger levels a month in advance

[jagged flume]

Rose, the second placer, is actually another new player who did remarkably well against Slowking, a multiple year classic player

[still sail]

yeah

Rose got good real quick

[sharp bane]

still surprised we didn't see any of the tippity-top players joining

[jagged flume]

I was held back by professional standards, Quix was dying of covid, and the rest aren't much interested these days so far as I can tell

Could easily just be the incredibly obtuse time too though

[still sail]

I didn't even know it was today XD

[sharp bane]

well, more pickings for us eternal newbies

[jagged flume]

Yeah you guys should legitimately join to curbstomp. You're supposed to play to win and we need more bleeding edge no holds barred pull out all the stops type games

I want it to be visceral and glorious

[sharp bane]

and winning a tournament isn't quite the same if you didn't beat out paragons to do it, yknow

[jagged flume]

Yeah exactly, a victory feels so much better if the people opposing you are terrifying

[still sail]

Rose and Slowking are pretty strong

[hasty jolt]

Why are flaks so unused by the way, just too expensive for what they do?

[still sail]

they are bad XD

[jagged flume]

They suck

Mines and EMPs are better and those are also kinda iffy

[sharp bane]

there was a time when flak was good and most ships used it

[past fiber]

As I noticed, there are much fewer rockets than in the last tournament and I like it

[still sail]

the lesser rockets the better 😎

[jagged flume]

See the issue is that they're worse at shooting stuff down, PD will always do a better job. They can't be used offensively effectively due to how they guzzle ammunition, missiles can easily be arced around them or in sufficient volume just go directly into the flak ignoring it, and it's expensive due to logistical and crew demands as well as hard to protect. The one strength they have is they can shoot down disruptors and blasters, but that's rarely in and of itself helpful enough to warrant it as opposed to more shields or more disruptors of your own to disable opponents

[sharp bane]

yeah, they're also harder to shield than PD

[kindred arrow]

ngl i hoped there would be some huge changes in the meta after steam release, but sadly there are almost none... And the factor that most of the weapons are limited in terms of ammo makes this worse, well for me at least as i don't like it

[jagged flume]

Have you played at all

[kindred arrow]

ye, but i expected more

[jagged flume]

Judging the game by it's tournaments is a bad metric to go by anyway

[sharp bane]

it feels about as different as you could expect without swapping to a different game tbh

[jagged flume]

We barely saw any nukes which are a huge addition that have fundamentally changed ship design just by existing

[kindred arrow]

true, might hop in the next one if i get the time... (this one i would have been ready 3h after the start and i doubt you would have waited so long... but that's fine)

[jagged flume]

The next tournament will not take nearly as long and will be at a much more reasonable time

[sharp bane]

it's still fundamentally cosmoteer pvp with all of its quirks, but some ship archetypes are dead and new ones rise in their place

[hasty jolt]

today actually was a very reasonable time for me at 13:00.

[jagged flume]

Avoiders are back too, but we only saw two of those

[still sail]

yeah for me too but

[sharp bane]

yea same, europe high five

[still sail]

I took a covid booster yesterday and today I'm destroyed

[jagged flume]

Yeah it was for people on the other side of the planet, but they all hid away in the woodwork come modern. Given that they all disappeared I'm not gonna keep em in mind for the next tournament

[still sail]

which is also why I didn't play with yall yesterday I am sorry 😔

[sharp bane]

rip, my first one was good but the 2nd one killed me for 2 days

[sharp bane]

Well, back to the usual tournaments that finish at 4am for me then

[jagged flume]

In my defense

Better you than me

[sharp bane]

except my parents will hate me since our new apartment has two rooms and the PC is in the living room where they sleep

oh well, they'll have to live with it

[past fiber]

and what time is the next tournament scheduled?

[sharp bane]

january if saris hosts it

there's a domination tournament upcoming on december 10th hosted by players banned from the main discord

[past fiber]

Well, I'm talking about the clock

[still sail]

🤔

[past fiber]

and why did this happen?

[sharp bane]

tournaments will generally start around like, 20:00 UTC or later - expect that

[jagged flume]

Why are you helping them bypass it then

[sharp bane]

I'm giving the list of tournaments I know are upcoming

[past fiber]

Oh, for me it will be 2:00

[rough oracle]

I'm gonna see if I can join the next tournament anyways for general commentary

Could provide something other than a discussion of tactics and strategy

I was surprised at the lack of nuke usage, however the spinners were a sight to see for itself

[jagged flume]

Yeah you're first in line :D

For casting

[rough oracle]

Thanks

[still sail]

oy imma steal yo spot

[rough oracle]

Awesome stuff

Join me on the commentary table then

December tournament will be interesting, time to wait for times 🕑

[still sail]

come january imma be better than Saris 😎

[sharp bane]

there probably won't be one in december

[rough oracle]

Unfortunate

[signal valve]

Well, my deckgun ship performed as it was supposed to. Just it was not supposed to face a ship of that type. Never finished my third ship that would have countered such a slow ship :)

Though the tournament got me to actually make some "competitive" ships, which was good.

[chilly barn]

If I had been able to play I think we would've seen nukes do good against the spinner forts we saw playing

[sharp bane]

I feel like rail spinner forts would wreck most nuke ships because rails beat nukes on range

and may have enough armour to tank the somewhat limited ammo of a nuke ship

my nuke spinner has good odds of dodging most nuke ships but they can dodge it just as well, unless they autofire, in which case it's anyone's game

[still sail]

there were spinner forts?

imo they're just always a pretty subpar ship archetype

a real cool one yes but

[chilly barn]

I'd like to 1v1 your rail spinner fort sometime

[chilly barn]

They worked pretty well in the tourney from what I've seen

[still sail]

I only watched the three last matches pretty much

[chilly barn]

In semis they were good

I've only fought against one like once, I barley won with my nuke orbiter

[still sail]

sheesh

I don't see why that'd be the case, the burst from a nuke orbiter should easily pierce an MSF

[chilly barn]

My nuke orbiter doesnt have too much armor to be fair, but still they are good

[chilly barn]

I couldn't target the middle very well

[sharp bane]

I don't have one for the current version I'm afraid :P

[chilly barn]

Was also my first experience fighting one

[chilly barn]

😦

[sharp bane]

slowking and zachary seem to be your people for rail spinners atm

cy.co if he decides to grace us with his presence again

[chilly barn]

I also didn't see many ions

[sharp bane]

me and the winner had ion walls

there was one person bringing an ion barge I think?

maybe two

[chilly barn]

Rose didn't win

[still sail]

Rose brought an ion avoider

[chilly barn]

She had ion wall though

[sharp bane]

oh right I forgot already

[still sail]

which is theoretically good but practically pretty bad a lot of times

[sharp bane]

sorry slowking xP

[chilly barn]

I meant ion frigate

[still sail]

a rammer?

wouldn't know

[hasty jolt]

I think we saw 4 spinners? Some better than others. Zachary's spinner seemed really good, it just got countered.

[chilly barn]

I feel like ion frigates are really good against most of the ships winning

[still sail]

I'd bring a rail kite over a rammer any day

Zach's spinner is really good and cool but like, I have not lost to it once XD

[chilly barn]

Rails can't get though ion's sheilds

[sharp bane]

well, maybe they don't have to

rail traps >:D

and TB rails

[still sail]

traps are amazing but the micro on them is outrageous

[sharp bane]

yupp, my brain gets confused

having ship control groups helps a bit

[chilly barn]

I'm not sure how good a tb rail is against anything

[still sail]

because avoiders work well because of DC

you can't DC two things at once

[chilly barn]

It seems to me they aren't good enough at flipping

[sharp bane]

you can DC them one at a time, but it gets very tough at that point

[still sail]

yup

which isn't good enough because

r o c k s

[sharp bane]

yeah a good player will try to shake off rail traps by forcing them into rocks

[chilly barn]

Rocks make certain ships ok

I like rocks

[sharp bane]

I think good on the whole, but need balanced rock layouts

[chilly barn]

Ya

[sharp bane]

some matchups its a cointoss whether there is an asteroid in the middle or not

[chilly barn]

There should be like 3 different rock layouts to choose from

[gilded spindle]

hOw DaRe YoU11!!1!1!11

[gilded spindle]

yeah, the last match's rock layout was atrocious

[pine swallow]

did you get a starsector key?

[snow seal]

congratz @gilded spindle

[vivid ore]

Here is the career version of the vessel you saw in tourney:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/314115775319506955/1046158185603551272/Xena.ship.png

[chilly barn]

Looks so cool

[autumn maple]

laser rave

[gilded spindle]

really wish it was stronger

[signal valve]

That looks really cool tbh

[vivid ore]

there are enemies it wins against ... not railspinner 😉

[gilded spindle]

sadly it'd lose to all three of my ships

[vivid ore]

most likely

[snow seal]

i love the color

[sharp bane]

the way it fans out the ions is definitely very pretty

[vivid ore]

that beeing shared - i won't bring an aesthetic career ship next toruney ...

Oh and not to forget the bold support squib:

[white apex]

me

i didn't participate lol

[upbeat ridge]

pine

[sharp bane]

right that's it

was expecting rose to bring one tbh

[autumn maple]

i brought a classic ion orbit thtat died horribly to missiles :agony:

[brisk frost]

hey i just watched the last tourn stream, i dont think players should be able to see enemy ships prior to the match being live. I noticed that one of the early matches a player saw he was up againt an ion so he swapped to 3 swarmers and just ate him up. Really unfair IMO.

really liked that player were limited to pre-approved loadouts though, i thought that was a nice change

likewise, the other player knew he was against 3 swarmers and ditched armor segments right away in the match. It would be cooler if all that happened a bit more spontaneously once the ships were in LOS

[jagged flume]

While it's an understandable thing, having previews (as the setting is known) off results in rock paper scissors matches where there's now a huge amount of luck involved rather than strictly skill, as the tournament is supposed to be about. This was a major issue in the past and resulted in some matches that one player had NO chance of winning. There can be an argument for picking generalists or trying to mindgame about what your opponent picks, but again, this changes the focus from primarily playing the game to metagaming your opponent. Additionally it punishes players who have less time to practice against all of their opponents and become experienced with the ships they might be using

Fog of war is interesting and hasn't been tried before

[white apex]

fog is more annoying than good imo since it clears targeting

either that or u get in range and stay in range and it doesn't add anything

other than maybe ur skill at remembering where asteroids are

[dense pewter]

well fog benefits some weapons while being a pain for others. playing with fog basicly is an indirect nerf to rails, ioans, missels and maybe blasters, while a buff for cannons and maybe blasters (dont know exact FoW range atm if its higher or lower then blaster)

could be interesting to see a tournement with FoW, but i expect people then just use senser phalanx and wouldnt rly change a lot about gameplay. if Senser phalanx would be banned tho it could result in a totally different meta, making some interesting matches

[jagged flume]

Oh also stream sniping becomes a thing

[sharp bane]

we had a fog of war tournament run asynchronously during the beta. No recording as a result, but sensors were useful, and on the whole it just made targetting annoying and gave less time for intricate piloting.

[brisk frost]

well if you are trying to win a competition simply do not stream or stream on a few minute delay... as to it becoming an RPS game, well I saw exactly that happen this tournament, picks were changed RPS style before the match began, and I feel like one opponent either wasnt given or missed his opportunity to repick or counter pick as his opponent did to him.

Again, I think we all agree we dont want to see a RPS game play out over 10 minutes.

As to "There can be an argument for picking generalists or trying to mindgame about what your opponent picks, but again, this changes the focus from primarily playing the game to metagaming your opponent. "

Id argue that becoming an effective generalist or mind gaming our opponents are better than just counter picking a ship before the game even begins. Currently the meta IS countering, and we are making it easier than just building a good ship or being a good pilot.

"Additionally it punishes players who have less time to practice against all of their opponents and become experienced with the ships they might be using"

This is exactly how a competition is supposed to work. People with less experience are supposed to be at a disadvantage in competition. That's the point in practice. Lets not punish those who want to spend their time practicing shall we!

[sharp bane]

I think both points are valid, but this isn't about gaining an advantage through experience on the whole. This is about gaining an edge through meta-gaming, or having experience vs the specific opponents you are going against; it encourages you to spend time seeking out info and games vs players who you do not know very well in order to gain an edge over them in the competition, rather than focusing on general piloting practice and building more efficient ships.

I don't think there were many slip-ups in this tournament in the sense of picking the wrong ship, the broader issue is that the blind luck is still somewhat of a factor with this format - the opponent can bring a ship which has an edge over all of your ships, so you get a best bad choice. The three ship format was an attempt to make the meta not be countering, because previously people with larger ship libraries could often find ships which countered everything an opponent with a smaller ship library could bring. Maybe it needs a strike/ban system to be fully effective, though.

on a personal and less competitive note, my biggest reason for supporting ship preview being on is that it makes sharing ships before the tournament less of a disadvantage. I want everyone to see my ships, so feeling pressured to hoard them and keep them secret to gain an edge in a tournament feels off.

[jagged flume]

^^ Strong agree with everything you said

People with less experience are supposed to be at a disadvantage

While this is understandable and to a certain extent I agree, I'm of the belief that these events should be as accessible as possible to everyone who wants to participate. This may be somewhat antithetical to the 'playing to win' atmosphere that tournaments (should) represent, but I want the competitive aspect of the game to be as hospitable and inclusive as possible.

To deal with the counterpicking issue in the January tournament Im considering trying 2v2s with no restrictions to see how it plays out

[hasty jolt]

You could also try requiring the players to use each of their ships once. It was a best of 3 with both players having 3 ships, if one ship is countering it would only decide one match and it avoids a person having a ship that counters all 3 ships of the opponent deciding the game.

[brisk frost]

^ i like that, must use each lineup once... but what if someone just wants to enter 1 single ship.

The 2v2 tourn sounds fun, I still think seeing enemy ships before battle takes away from the overall experience of it. I think being able to quickly spot shape, systems, and design and relate that to how a ship will perform tactically is an important part of learning the game.

Also, maybe consider a different game mode. In arena mode players are competing to deal higher damage numbers within an allowed period. They can surrender a ship at any time and repick a new line up, we can limit overall value, and single ship value, and number of pilotable ships.

This would completely prevent the RPS or counter picking meta, as technically someone could pilot a few ships with different abilities. Or get a fresh pick after they were destroyed, and still have time to respond.

However, I still think a limited library its a good idea.

[sharp bane]

imo playing around with arena is a very good idea, it is quite versatile especially now that some of the old issues with it have been patched.

[brisk frost]

bingo^ i think its a way better game mode right now

[bright anchor]

do any you guys know when the next tournament is gonna come?

[pine swallow]

idk

[sharp bane]

in terms of official elimination tournaments, probably early in January

[bright anchor]

ok

[white apex]

"the future"

not within the next month

[earnest halo]

I feel like arena isnt great for tourney since respawning makes some stuff abusable

Actually that would just mean a diff meta i guess

But oh god i can already see the nuke stick spam against literally anything and then the rails only to counter nuke stick

Then anything to counter rails i guess

Sounds like scissors paper stone lol

[chilly barn]

Can counter nuke stick with anything that moves fast

[earnest halo]

Multiple sticks tho?

Theyre cheap

[sharp bane]

still relatively trivial to dodge nukes in a fast orbital wall or avoider

[chilly barn]

Yep

I feel if we do a team tourney then rail kites would be extremely overpowered

[sharp bane]

even more than they are now?

but yeah, basically having rail traps piloted in direct control

scary

[chilly barn]

Yes
Rose basically forced qixmo to attack her and only her in a 3v3 we had

It wasn't very fun to fight i'm sure

[trim kestrel]

if I were to host a mini tournament this month what would you guys be most interested in doing?
🇩 domination
5️⃣ 500k elim
🇹 teams
🇦 arena

[white apex]

arena bad bc there's exploits and u can make it so ur opponent can't get any points from u once u start dying w/ ur ship

[sharp bane]

hasn't that been fixed?

[snow seal]

u passively lose points

[sharp bane]

ah I see, so only 50% fixed

[hollow socket]

Just kite until time runs out, you lose no points

[sharp bane]

RoD messes up kiting lategame

[azure goblet]

I'm thinking it would be nice to have a Dom tournament since iirc Saris is planning on hosting a team tournament after this one already.

[sharp bane]

and also we aren't likely to get a dom tournament on this server anytime soon unless someone else hosts

[jagged flume]

0neye is right, as is Enoshade: I likely won't ever host domination so one ought consider the opportunity

[chilly barn]

Probably won't be a 500k elim touney either

[gilded nimbus]

Ultimately it's up to Polar Bear

500K would be a fun little break from the usual

[earnest halo]

Do a 10mil tourney :p

[surreal pecan]

A 3mil tourney would be interesting though.

Or maybe 2.5mil.

[desert fiber]

A tournament above 1.5 mil would likely take too long IMO

[white apex]

nuke only tourney ezpz

[hollow socket]

1,500,001 tournament?

Most likely it would be a 2m tournament if you ever get one above 1.5m

[gilded nimbus]

I'd be down for 2m tbh

Tho the funny thing about it is that the ability to concentrate damage scales more quickly than the ability to defend against incoming damage. A really big rail fan can punch through an almost arbitrary number of shields. So the real test of large builds is redundancy and damage control.

Or it would just let me take four Legionnaires instead of three 😄

[desert fiber]

I might say instead the tendency for players to concentrate defense scales more quickly than their tendency to concentrate damage. Plus concentrating damage is harder to figure out than slapping down some shields and armor.

[jagged flume]

Is it? Just slapping more weapons on your ship or loadout naturally proportional to cost increases damage allocation, you have to actively go out of your way to maintain the same ratio for defenses to opponent weapons

[white apex]

somply alpha dtrike

simply alpha strike

[hollow socket]

I wonder what we'd see in a 2.5m tournament

[gilded nimbus]

FIVE LEGIONNAIRES 😄

Nah at that price point they wouldn't be able to tank a rail fan

Bigger and bigger ships tend to incorporate more rails and ions

They have to use all that internal volume somehow

The real fun comes from being able to diversify your ship loadout

You get to use an ion core fit for a 1.5M ship and still have credits for a decent amount of cannons or lasers, for example

[sharp bane]

rails and missiles are the only ones after a certain price point

[hollow socket]

30m railfan kiter

[earnest halo]

500 accel rail stick

[white apex]

tb cube

o wait those don't work anymore

[hollow socket]

sadly so

[gilded spindle]

What if we're to do 1.5mil teams instead of 3m teams

So each player has 750k rather than 1.5

[desert fiber]

Or one player could have a 1 mil and the other a 500k

[chilly barn]

Or one player has 1.5m the other watches

[hollow socket]

Sounds like fastwalls to me

[white apex]

most 1.5m ships beat traps

[chilly barn]

Hmm seems like one player playing a 1.5 mil ship may be the play

That wouldn't be fun tho
So i think total of 3m would be good

[sharp bane]

no what are you on, discounting other factors and assuming decent team play (which granted is not a given in cosmoteer), two pilots are going to whale on one pilot of similar skill so hard. Traps are already scary even just with RTS mode, if both traps are being piloted in DC...

[white apex]

yea but speed metaaaa

get a rammer and any traps r useless

since they can't trap

same w/ avoiders that outspeed

then it's just a patience game or until one of the pilots messes up really badly

[sharp bane]

anyways same issue present in 3 mil, so the solution is either ship cost split equally per player, or (my preferred one), both players have to be above one third of the total budget. So, in 3m the limit is 1m + 2m, in 1.5m it is 1m + 500k

[gilded spindle]

yea

that seems like a fair trade

[stone zephyr]

would I be able to enter the next tournament (whenever that is) even if Im new to the server?

[sharp bane]

no limits on who can enter tournaments, you definitely can

just have to have the game, be on this server, and follow the rules

[stone zephyr]

Epic

[snow seal]

saris finally made the highlights video

[chilly barn]

https://youtu.be/kgCAoUgFoiU

This one or can I not find it?

[snow seal]

that ya

[jagged flume]

First of two

[chilly barn]

Nice

[sharp bane]

lmao I love the 32x speed on my match

it was an honour

to an extent this is as much a 'the rock provides' compilation as it is an explosion reel

[cloud escarp]

Would y’all be interested in a more custom bracket design? I watched the last tournament and really liked it, and I have a good deal of experience making graphics n stuff. I wouldnt mind making a bracket that looks good for the tournament.

[jagged flume]

Not at all!

They're so rough and off the cuff so I can actively tailor them to the participants that actually show up, and retaining detail while crossing off/adding two entrants is difficult

[hollow socket]

for the tournament planned in January, would there be many participants

[jagged flume]

I'm not sure. I'm trying to determine a good way to process 16+ teams, but haven't had much luck. I'm extremely curious about a swiss style but as cosmoteer has no draw potential it becomes somewhat iffy in nature

[chilly barn]

swiss cheese style?

[wooden crystal]

who said anything about cheese

[jagged flume]

My understanding of a swiss style is an organization of tournament where you're matched based on victories. Lets look at a 8 person bracket, players A~H A wins against B, C against D, E against G, and I against H. Now the players who won are paired against each other and those who lost against each other. A v C, E v I, B v D, and G v H

Following that you now have two people with 2 victories, four people with 1 victory, and two people with 0 victories, and then you pair them up against each other again accordingly

Normally it's more nuanced, with victories giving you two points and draws one. Supposedly nobody ever faces the same opponent twice. This also prevents early eliminations of cool players who might have otherwise been solid contenders

[chilly barn]

sounds fun

[jagged flume]

Yeah it's definitely curious and interestingly might provide a slipshod ranking system

[hasty jolt]

I've played in a swiss style league of a game before and that one just had everyone fight everyone once, which worked for that game, but will probably take way too long for this.

[jagged flume]

Based on extremely questionable math though it doesn't actually reduce number of matches by a huge amount though. Considering a 32 player bracket:

Elim 16 + 8 + 4 + 2 + 1 = 31, x 2~3 for a best 2of3 = 62~93 matches. For a double elimination bracket it's 60~61

For Swiss it's normally as many rounds as you reasonably want due to the draws, but with the binary system of only wins or losses in place, one would either have to go all the way down 16matches x 5rounds for 80matches, or switch to an elim bracket after 3/4 rounds, leaving 8/4 players left if you only accept those with minimum 2/3 wins (or 1/2 losses max)
(4+2+1 = 7 x 2of3 = 14~21, + 24 = 38 ~ 45)
(2 + 1 = 3 x 3of5 = 9~15, + 32 = 41~47)
Those seem reasonable, definitely lower than the sixty minimum, but I can't shake that it's effectively just a best 2of3/3of5 against random opponents which seems as though it would feel bad to lose. On the plus side those with sufficient straight losses could be removed from the bracket as they have no hope of making it to the elimination stage, but that also feels harsh

[jagged flume]

That's actually a 'round robin' and honestly would be ideal from a competitive perspective, but is unfortunately unfeasible due to time constraints

Works for any single digit at the very least due to nonreliance on a binary system

[hasty jolt]

A round robin could work if you just show one fight in each round robin round and do that in such a way that every player is shown exactly twice. We won't see all the battles but every player would be represented equally in the livestream and other highlights can be made later?

[jagged flume]

Ah, not covering all the fights or having multiple streams. A good idea, but there isn't yet another good party for streaming and managing their portion of the event. Additionally participants and viewers expressed that they liked seeing all the fights

(I know it seems like I may be shooting all your ideas down but I really appreciate you talking about this 💙)

[hasty jolt]

Those are all very good reasons, elimination just has the problem that if one person ends up countering you completely you're out, despite your possible win/loss count against the other participants being better. I guess swiss is a good middle ground between that and complete round robin.

[jagged flume]

Tournaments have since implimented rules to reduce counters or unwinnable arrangements (why I will NEVER use previews off). Additionally that's why there's the best 2of3 or double elimination addatives so that a given loss is less harsh. Increasing the number of losses required to be eliminated from 1 to 2 isn't the largest leap though 😕

[hasty jolt]

For this game it's also just not viable to use an all-round ship that has a bit of everything, the extremes of using one type of weapon are too advantageous which makes balancing things difficult.

I really do like seeing all of those completely different ships though.

[jagged flume]

Definitely. Nice thing about teams at least is nobody wins a 2v1 regardless of counters so ship restrictions aren't as necessary

[hasty jolt]

What kind of price limits have been tried? I know the last tournament was 1.5 million, could any other amounts be interesting?

[jagged flume]

Maybe but staying at 1.5mil allows a consistent way to practice and build ships. If I set it to 500k everybody has to build new ships to accommodate the price change. 1.5mil is about the range where most everything is viable as well, too high and blasters fall off, too low and rails fall off, etc

[hasty jolt]

I guess if every fight gets streamed there is just no way to make a loss less harsh due to time constraints and 2/3 rounds swiss into elimination is the best we can have, but maybe the fact that it is teams might lower the amount of participants by a fair bit. Possibly allowing for swiss without needing to end with eliminations.

[chilly barn]

I wonder if you would allow just straight up one person with 3m ship

[jagged flume]

Boring by comparison, as well as an unfair advantage

[chilly barn]

like if one person on the team can't play the game

[chilly barn]

is it?

[jagged flume]

Yes

[chilly barn]

I've only seen bad 3m ships but they have been really easy to beat

[jagged flume]

What 1.5mil ship could survive a 3mil railkite volley

[chilly barn]

I have one
but it will die later
but also then why not have two people join up their railkites?

bc you can have ships join together

[hollow socket]

railkites with pds

[hasty jolt]

Actually, you could have a tournament with many more battles if you make the tournament last longer, have like 4 weekends of battles and you can get through full swiss and maybe even a little more?

I've definitely participated in tournaments for other games that took 3 months to finish with a stream almost every week.

[jagged flume]

Definitely, but then you drop participants because they could make room for one day, but not four

Helpful for viewers too. More coherent overall

[hasty jolt]

Yeah, but might be an idea for 1 bigger tournament a year or something like that.

[sharp bane]

assuming that more people actually join it than a normal tournament, which may be hard to guarantee...

[hasty jolt]

The other games for which I participated in a tournament worked completely differently, so I'm not sure how nice a longer tournament would be for this game.

But it could be worth a try?

[jagged flume]

Well currently I'm content to just test and practice the infrastructure for larger tournaments, it's not necessary methinks to try and go for a grand tournament or whatever when we haven't tested an in-game notice yet

[hollow socket]

A big tournament, spanning weeks is sure to erase a few social lives

[sharp bane]

it may also make emotions flare up more, a multi-week commitment feels much more high stakes than a single day tournament

like playing neptune's wrath

[rough oracle]

Also don't need the tournament really interfering with anything that's also beyond school life. Weekend's might seem suitable, but people probably got some extra arrangements to manage

[jagged flume]

Friendly fire for teams? 🤔

Make cooperation an absolute requirement instead of potentially just a trivial tack on

[white apex]

mines D:

and nukes

also makes cannon teammates missing a loooot worse than laser

[jagged flume]

Yeah cuz people were gonna be using cannons

[snow seal]

rip missiles

[white apex]

yes :(

i would use mines too if i could get a factory setup to work

[chilly barn]

I think friendly fire would cause some unfortunate happenings

and deck cannon bricks are pretty useful in casual team games
if everyone is gonna use a railkite probably not buutt idk
seems like it's making the already worse strategies even worse

[jagged flume]

Yeah I'll not turn it on

[chilly barn]

nice ok

Starting distance?
I think normal is better to allow for more in depth positioning

[jagged flume]

I changed it from short to normal just for you, actually

[chilly barn]

ty 🙂

[stone zephyr]

when is the next tournament planned to happen?

[jagged flume]

January 28th

[sharp bane]

is it pretty much confirmed that team credits will be shared, or should we be prepared for having to each bring a 1.5m ship max? A bunch of players are building with the assumption that credits will be shared.

[jagged flume]

1.5mil per player (3mil per team), not pooled

[sharp bane]

OH ok

[stone zephyr]

😢 guess Ill have to wait for the next tournament to try and join

[jagged flume]

Why?

[stone zephyr]

Im going to rock the universe which happens to be on that weekend

definitely going to watch the stream though

[chilly barn]

😦
I can go to this one though 🙂

now I just have to hope rose can

[surreal pecan]

@thin dagger Considering the number of Design Contests you have hosted, can I ask you approximately when the next one will be and what kind of Design Contest will it be?

---

I had a really smart idea for a contest in mind: Built-In Copy Contest. As we all know, there are some built-ins that are left in the old game and will possibly never be adapted to the new game. Whilst things made by official engineers like Vilda and 0neye will probably get some love in being reworked, some miscellaneous ones like those by Walt himself, David Billingsley and others will probably be left out in the dark for good. So, there could be a contest where members of the community will try to rework three old Built-In ships of their choosing and giving them the style of one of our four factions they fit in the best.

I'm not here to wrap my ides around others, but I think this kind of context would be really epic whilst also giving justice to some old ships we all grew attached to.

[jagged flume]

Ones by non-David/Walt required the original artist's explicit permission to be updated, and nobody felt like pestering them so they didn't happen

[surreal pecan]

Hmm, really..?

[thin dagger]

a- i have plans on hosting a design contest pretty soon
b- it already has a theme
c- like saris said, we would need permission from the contest winner ship designers for this idea

[surreal pecan]

:c

Okay

Fair enough.

[thin dagger]

on a side note, yes i mostly host design contests and barely if any tournaments, this has a few reasons, but the main 2 are that other hosts mostly do tournaments and i enjoy hosting design contests more than hosting tournaments

[surreal pecan]

Flagship design contest would be neat though.

Minimum 3 Million credits, no credit limit.

One ship only for any given faction.

[white apex]

lagbomb flagship when

[hollow socket]

in comes the 600m missile barge, along with no connectivity

[thin dagger]

as far as im aware, ships with a budget above 3 mil dont spawn. even in classic i dont think terror would actually spawn in bounty hunter due to being too expensive

[surreal pecan]

WHAT?

Never knew that was a thing.

Such a weird mechanic.

[thin dagger]

at least thats what i heard

[surreal pecan]

But level 18 is exactly the 3Mil+ ships.

Apostheusis or something, All For Now, Voluntas...

Those do indeed spawn in-game.

Arbiter too.

[surreal pecan]

*Apotheosis.

[thin dagger]

huh, walt himself once sent me a ship budget chart, it maxed out on 3 mil exactly

[surreal pecan]

Then explain this video, and many more showcasing level 18s in Career... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Z39vyXu46Y

All For Now moment XD

[thin dagger]

level 18 is 2.5 mil to 3 mil. at least it should be

[surreal pecan]

Hmmmm.

Okay.

Maybe Walt changed it since?

My friend can confirm that he's seen several 3 Millions when exploring in the ''Free Build'' mode of Career.

[thin dagger]

well yes, 3 mil is the max so that is not impossible

[surreal pecan]

Anzu (~2.5Mil+) is Level 17 though 👀

Yeah I have no idea where you got these stats from, but they don't seem all that correct, sorry.

[thin dagger]

i literaly got them from walt, aka the dev

[surreal pecan]

Hmmmmmm.

I genuinely don't know, then.

Probably got changed.

[thin dagger]

thats probebly it

[earnest halo]

Wait yeah this chart i see everywhere doesnt show that too

Hm

[jagged flume]

Flagship ended up being a significantly more flexible price range than described

[hollow socket]

40k ship tournament perhaps?

[gilded spindle]

that'd be storage galore

[hollow socket]

Storage only

[sharp bane]

yeah because the cockpit is 15k and SR is 25k

[rough oracle]

Capacitors could work.. but then again we actually do want the fight to last a while so maybe such short price budgets are not suitable

[hollow socket]

short fights makes a shorter tournament

[sharp bane]

more like many draws

[earnest halo]

Hm how good would nukes do in ai tourney since i dont think ai can dodge well

What if the ship was just a single nuke

Itll probably 1 shot most of the 40k ships

[jagged flume]

In an AI tourney nukes would probably be one of the best options

[chilly barn]

You could probably do very well with a nuke stick

[snow seal]

ooo saris remember the zombie tourney?

[jagged flume]

Don't remind me it didn't go well 💀

[snow seal]

i can't find the stream

[earnest halo]

Yeah i feel like nukes would do pretty well in ai battles

U take away the 1 main counter of dodging and suddenly its op

[jagged flume]

You can set up some pretty nice structure lattice with armor every 5 tiles to minimize nuke damage since they don't know they're not supposed to target too though

[sharp bane]

there was a 65k ai tournament and nukes definitely did very well, but still, with all but the slowest ships over half of the nukes missed.

[chilly barn]

You can even put what you want them to target on the sides

[surreal pecan]

This seriously has to be the funniest, goofiest, silliest, daftest most bonkers ship I've ever seen. It also resulted in one of the longest PvP matches ever recorded in this game.

I want to make something like this too.

[sharp bane]

I think I have a track record with long games, my 2019 rail spinner was also rather known to last until the very last in the ring of death

here's an updated version of that spinner if you want a look, and also my old spinner which I wish would still work but the updates have not been kind

[autumn maple]

oh no

alternating boosters :agony:

[surreal pecan]

WOw...

Looks amazing.

[snow seal]

nah that's permaboost

u used to be able to put batteries in boost thrusters

this was before larger reactors and engine rooms distributing power

[autumn maple]

ah righ

infinite boost

[jagged flume]

I think they're also no longer even close to fitting in such a small frame either 😆

[jagged flume]

11pm UTC or 1am UTC starting time 🤔

Not much difference, only a two hour delay or such between the stat dates

[pine swallow]

utc is?

[jagged flume]

Coordinated Universal Time

[snow seal]

i vote 11pm

[chilly barn]

I prefer 1 am but either works

[snow seal]

wait what day

[chilly barn]

January 28th

@snow seal

[snow seal]

oh

[sharp bane]

11pm all the way, 1am could honestly make it undoable for me

I'd still try but it would be a huge pain and I'd probably get everypne mad at me for keeping them up at night

maybe I could try to move the PC setup outside or to the toilet if the tournament is too late

toilet probably a bad idea since people will be using it at night sometimes

but outside will be cold

[hasty jolt]

Is this about the next tournament date and time?

[rough oracle]

Yeah

[hasty jolt]

I assume it is 11 pm saturday january 28th and 1 am sunday january 29th? I would definitely prefer 11 pm.

[jagged flume]

Cont. from #off-topic

Since Rose popularized them for some blasted reason, railkites are the central theme. Deck cannons as a new addition are a popular experimentation tool, with deck cannon rammers being a consistent (and easy to pilot), powerful choice, with a decent/good matchup against the popular railkites being another important factor

That being said, there hasn't been enough experimentation, and though RKs and DC rammers are good, they're not necessarily meta like TBrails or Missile Orbiters have been in the past

[upbeat ridge]

:(

[wooden crystal]

so still a very dynamic gamestate? not really centralized

[upbeat ridge]

i think rose damn well centralized it

[wooden crystal]

well if more than 1 thing is viable its better than previous metas

[upbeat ridge]

eh, it's similar to the terminal classic meta

[jagged flume]

Well RKs are a focal point but everything is still fluid and shifting. When not under a RK's influence everything is glorious chaos of experimentation and unknowns, which is also simultaneous to trying to find more consistent opponents to RKs

[jagged flume]

I vehemently disagree there's no terminal or stagnation about it

[snow seal]

so tldr is railkites and deck cannon bricks are popular but not the meta yet? correct me if i'm misunderstanding

[hasty jolt]

I don't see anything in the document regarding submitting ships to be used in the tournament or how ships will be chosen during matches?

Will we have a limit of 3 ships for each player again? Or is it different because we now have teams of 2?

[chilly barn]

Limit of 5 per player

[surreal pecan]

Oh boy will this start some trouble for being a diff.6...

Yup, it's a ludicrously overengineered version of Rochre.

Except quite different.

[gilded nimbus]

So, what's a guy gotta do to get a partner for the upcoming tourney? 😄

[jagged flume]

No ship limits at all this time

[jagged flume]

Just ask around. Excelsior could be especially good for it too

[bright anchor]

What made you decide to not have a limit on ships?

[jagged flume]

Difficulty in managing. When I'm taking care of everything it's easier, but this time there'll be two extra people that need to manage stuff

[hollow socket]

I am currently looking for a partner

[gilded nimbus]

Then it seems we have a coincidence of needs!

[hollow socket]

i feel like this has happened before, as it has

[gilded nimbus]

What do you mean?

[hollow socket]

The last Teams tournament in classic

[gilded nimbus]

Oh, that was so long ago I didn't even remember

[snow seal]

whats this for

[jagged flume]

That's just a natural part of teams, not everyone instantly has or knows a partner in mind

[snow seal]

saris wait i dont see anyone putting their steam name

should we edit it?

[jagged flume]

Oh, yeah, completely forgot

[hollow socket]

never mind that

[snow seal]

??

can u explain urself

[jagged flume]

Been considered turning previews off for the team tournament since counterpicking is harder to accomplish...

[stone zephyr]

That'd be really funny to see

Also it'd make for some interesting strategies, maybe not making a completely meta ship for some better all around matchups

[chilly barn]

I mean like I think I have a counter to everything that an opponent has

So maybe better to do counter picking?
Scouting to predict opponent choices will be a thing

[sharp bane]

yeah uh I think there is definitely a lot of room for counterlay

dual railkites are incredibly different from missile barges or DC rammers

[hollow socket]

know your enemy, claim the win

play last and know all their ships

[sharp bane]

doesn't work if they have every ship type 😉

[stone zephyr]

big brain

[snow seal]

ohno confirmed

stacked team

[chilly barn]

When qawa plays

[chilly barn]

But not every ship type works for teams

[chilly barn]

Is there going to be an in game announcement?

[jagged flume]

Of what

[chilly barn]

the tourney

[jagged flume]

I've announced it on youtube, in #tournament-announcements, #events, and 0neye mentioned it in Excelsior

Which really seems all that's necessary. Would you announce it in-game?

[chilly barn]

I'm not sure, I just remember you talking about it

[snow seal]

oh yeah walt can make some news pop up in game

[gilded spindle]

It'd be too much activity to handle most likely

[jagged flume]

Well, supposedly this tournament should be able to process up to 32 teams, or 64 people in a reasonable time frame. Past that we start having issues though, and I would prefer to have multiple days laid out if there was an ingame announcement

[sharp bane]

might be necessary if it ends up looking like there won't be enough teams signing up though, at least the team aspect should keep too many people from spontaneously joining and increase the maximum capacity of the tournament. I.e probs a better idea now than in a future solo tournament.

[hollow socket]

more teams, longer tournament

[upbeat ridge]

then, it'd be the most effective tactic given your information on average

[chilly barn]

wow already 6 teams

[hollow socket]

might be closer to 7

[surreal pecan]

Poor Saris, he gets pinged every time somebody signs up and there's nothing he can do about it ;-;

[gilded nimbus]

He asked for that specifically

[hollow socket]

Saris enjoys being pinged

13 signed up teams, 26 players, in comparison to the other tournament in November, it seems we have grown a larger selection of players

[sharp bane]

no I think there are 7 signed up teams?

13 players have signed up, 6 full teams and half of one team

[hollow socket]

Each sign up is a team of 2

Or maybe I am thinking of something else

[sharp bane]

both players have to post a signup message

[hollow socket]

I was thinking about the last teams tournament

[snow seal]

@hollow socket i'm not sure u have the correct time

it's at 23:00 utc so that should he 07:00 utc+8

unless u meant utc-8 then it's 15:00

[hollow socket]

And I'll be there, early

Preparing in the last 2 hours for it

[snow seal]

idk atleast correct the time in ur signup message

[surreal pecan]

:'>

[hollow socket]

Quix and Saris on the same team, this may be an uphill battle

[sharp bane]

I like to think that me and salephz could pose a threat too

cgt and rose definitely scary too, both very active modern players

[rough oracle]

yeah, rose won the last tournament iirc, so there is some deadly competition

[sharp bane]

this will be a common misconception for a long time to come I feel

slowking won, but rose seemed to be winning until the last moment

very strong showing from both tho

[snow seal]

it was 9am and i said

"i'm gonna head to sleep
we all know how this ends"

a minute later...

[jagged flume]

Rose was a close second place for the record

[snow seal]

yeah i watched the vod

[rough oracle]

oh, right, sorry

[snow seal]

honestly a lot of the teams are pretty promising

[chilly barn]

rose didn't want to win with a railkite and then she lost

[chilly barn]

thank you

It sucks because I can't really test out most of my strategies vs good teams

[snow seal]

why not

[chilly barn]

no one plays in their tourmant teams besides me and rose
at least we haven't played vs any tourney teams

[sharp bane]

me and salephz would be up for it I think

assuming free time matches

[snow seal]

this weekend maybe

[chilly barn]

I'm busy all weekend 😦
not gonna be free much after that weekend either

[sharp bane]

honestly the scariest team is the one with the most free time lol

[chilly barn]

yes XD

[chilly barn]

could we get a thread?

[jagged flume]

Creating a thread for sparring coordination among teams

[chilly barn]

yay

[jagged flume]

#1059955398603448340 message

[reef bloom]

Yeah theoretically me and cosmo are scary but he lives in Australia and I live in the USA so we have very little free time

Although slowking and Zachary are a scarier combination, as are saris and quiximo

[chilly barn]

you havent' signed up yet

[reef bloom]

Because we haven’t gotten around to it

We should probably do it today

[surreal pecan]

Are spinners in any way shape or form good in the current competitive scene? Because they're like, easily my favorite meta ships in the game.

ULMSF my beloved :>

[snow seal]

ultralight no because they dont have dense enough shielding to be good against all weapons but ions

and u saw how i fought ur nuke spinner with ions

[hasty jolt]

If an ultralight is fast enough it can work against nukes as well.

[snow seal]

the skill ceiling for using nukes is high enough that speed sometimes wont even matter

[sharp bane]

an ultralight spinner can tank some less armed railkites. It also has the potential to do well vs missile orbiters, as well as any slower ships. I think it could be viable, but most likely a nuke wall ends up being a better platform for nukes than a spinner. And doubtful that nukes will be top of the meta regardless, too many drawbacks.

[surreal pecan]

You can be surprised on how tanky these guys can be...

Their only real counters are fastwalls and really big railfans.

[snow seal]

uh hello

[surreal pecan]

Uh hello please don't compare your piloting skill to mine.

You'd win against me regardless if you gave me the objectively best meta ship to ever be created.

And I've beaten enough DC walls and ion walls and what not with this ship anyways.

Even some spinners.

[snow seal]

there is no objectively best meta ship

ion walls rarely win vs a rail spinner

[topaz rune]

I'm fairly certain there has to be an objective best everything. Whether we know what that is is another matter

[surreal pecan]

Indeed.

[topaz rune]

It just comes down to defining the parameters that define it

[surreal pecan]

Objective perfection in games that allow this much creativity and customization is indeed too hard for us mere mortals to find.

[snow seal]

hmm yeah i guess there would always be an overall best ship, but it would still have counters

[jagged flume]

I think that the game has been balanced enough to prevent truly meta things to take place, the best example probably being TB railfans of old, but even then there was counterplay arguably dismantling the meta title

[surreal pecan]

True.

There is not a ship that can not be defeated.

[jagged flume]

What designs are popular is a better designation IMO, and that I can solidly and safely answer as Railkites and DC rammers

[surreal pecan]

Even if you make a perfect shield tank kiter with 50 giant shields, it could still be defeated by a ship of equal price, maybe an EMP spam...

[surreal pecan]

I've not seen any DC Rammers.

[topaz rune]

And walls lately, which counters one of those and is countered by the other

[surreal pecan]

Rock paper scissors meta.

[snow seal]

spock gun

[jagged flume]

Well yeah, that's part of the designation of popularity, ship choices warp around the popular ships

I think that deck cannon rammers wouldn't be nearly as popular if they weren't one of the consistent options against railkites, as an example

[surreal pecan]

Yes.

[topaz rune]

It's a lame matchup, but favored

[surreal pecan]

If something is very good in a competitive scene, something that can reliably counter it will arise on the top as well.

It's true in every game.

It's a dumb comparison, but in Clash Royale, when the Mother Witch was on the top of the meta after some giant buffs, great competitive choices like the skeleton army turned completely obsolete, whilst nearly useless troops that could counter Mother Witch in specific became good choices all of a sudden.

(I feel cringe just by using a Supercell mobile game as a comparison to Cosmoteer 😅)

[topaz rune]

TB rails enjoyed quite the run in classic before counters were common. I doubt we'll see anything like that again, even with knew parts, so even if a part is problematic, counters will rebalance the meta fairly quickly

[surreal pecan]

I don't know man, despite that promising 100% power buff, TBs are very incapable.

[jagged flume]

Any match with one railkite is lame what do you mean 💀

[topaz rune]

TB rails can still trivialize a lot of rammers, which are still fairly popular

[surreal pecan]

Even if you're super light it has trouble pushing you away with its power.

[topaz rune]

exactly

[snow seal]

deck gun rammers have too much thrust...

[surreal pecan]

But when something can defeat a railkite and wrecks its backside, now that's epic!

[topaz rune]

I used to think that, but a good enough 6+ TB rail and a strong pilot can still take them out.

[surreal pecan]

I was genuinely screaming YEEEES when Slowing rammed Rose's kiter in the final match... Even if it was just a mistake from Rose's part that king exploited.

I hate when match is decided by not sheer skill, but not having a counter to a powerful enemy choice.

[snow seal]

i think your boomer variant with less armor was just tanky enough to survive rails and fast enough that tbs were struggling to affect, but it mightve just been the limitations of my ship

[jagged flume]

Yes, definitely sympathize, or in a set up where you're forced to use a ship that has no chance

[surreal pecan]

Yeees.

[topaz rune]

Boomer does a lot better against TBs than most DCs because of it's unusual amount of thrust, but it's still gotten taken down by the occasional TB rail. I don't think your average DC stands much chance against 6+ TBs

I'll admit though that when facing TBs, input lag is the devil and that was a factor at the time

[snow seal]

hmm lag probably gives more micro intensive ships an advantage

[topaz rune]

When there is a .5 second delay between your input and it happening, it's a lot harder to counter TB interference.

[chilly barn]

Has anyone really played deck cannon that much but me?
Or at least played it consistently as a railkite counter?

I really haven't seen effective deck cannons played that much recently, I think railkites are still much more popular

Deck cannon fights are still really boring though when I tank to wait for rod or tank to make ammo dissapear
That seems like it came off very braggily, sorry about that. Meant to more say that Deck cannons aren't really that popular, Rose and Calvin both have pretty tanky deck cannons, but neither of them use them too much.

[topaz rune]

I put in a lot of time to deck guns when they released and I have plenty of deck gun matches. I don’t use them as much after getting a clear understanding of their strengths and limitations.

[chilly barn]

ah that's true

[limber sparrow]

I noticed in chat here it was mentioned you needed to be in closed beta to join the tournament? Is that different than having purchased it on steam? Is there a version I'm unaware of? The Tournament Document doesn't seem to mention that you need to be in "closed beta".

[jagged flume]

That's for a long since outdated tournament that happened during the... closed beta, a few months back before the game release

The current PvP tournament document is this one https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Y_kHJTGoF4xGxoVvRfcfT1GNu-K3ADeQyMyZhUuIsCw/edit?usp=sharing

[limber sparrow]

Oh gotcha! I didn't check the time stamp my apologize. I just saw the tournament chat here and started reading a bit haha.

Time to try and put my 120 hours of building random crap to possibly some use? lol

[jagged flume]

Heh heh, yeah you're fine. I haven't deleted that thread since I thought @trim kestrel might still want to have access to the match recordings

And yeah, I'm sure there's other people floating around that need a teammate, try asking around and such, or recruit a friend you've been playing with

[limber sparrow]

What's the difference between credits per player/team and max ship value? Is it like, two players in a team can have two ships of 1.5m and be fine at the 3m max? But you can't have 3 players with 1.5m ships?

[sharp bane]

kinda, but what is relevant for this tournament is that each player should bring a 1.5m ship or multiple ships adding up to 1.5m

[hollow socket]

For example a railtrap consisting of two 750k Railfans

[limber sparrow]

but the team can't exceed 3m right?

[hollow socket]

Each player on the team only gets 1.5m, no 1 player gets 2m and the other 1m

[sharp bane]

yes, though that's redundant info since you should have no more and no less than 2 players

[limber sparrow]

Gotcha, I wasn't sure what the team sizes were so it was more theoretical

Cool thanks guys!

[hollow socket]

It is indeed 2v2 battles

[sharp bane]

(for this upcoming tournament. Most others are solo, and we have yet to have a major tournament with bigger teams I believe)

[hollow socket]

Saris, will we have to submit 3 ships similar to November?

[chilly barn]

Not saris but I believe I asked a while ago and you don't need to, you can play as many different ships that you made as you want

[jagged flume]

I think there might have been a 3v3 at some point?

Maybe, maybe not. I don't think it's a particularly good idea until 2v2 is better tested

[stone zephyr]

3v3 sounds very chaotic (but fun)

[limber sparrow]

Does the 1.5m cost include blueprint costs?

[hollow socket]

1.5m is the total cost of the ship, it includes ammo

[sharp bane]

no, a lot of concepts from career don't apply to multiplayer pvp. The cost of it in your ship library is exactly what you get in multiplayer, so refer to that.

[limber sparrow]

Thanks

[sharp bane]

you can also see current ship price in creative mode (only counting resources currently in the ship, not the ones planned to be in it) with a little barely-visible arrow under the ship directions on the far right of the ship editing interface

[jagged flume]

Crew for example are a static 1k each in non-career mode

[hollow socket]

Crew isn't cheap, it is why good crew logistics is important

[limber sparrow]

What was the price limit last years tournament? I'm studying lol

[jagged flume]

It's always been 1.5mil

Per player

[limber sparrow]

Gotcha. thanks :)

[cloud escarp]

would ion capacitor ships be of any use in pvp? I've been seeing them around a bit and they're an interesting innovation, but not sure how much of a gimmick they are

also if this is the incorrect place to ask this kind of question lmk

[stone zephyr]

probably not, currently its too expensive for not really great damage

[rough oracle]

Absolutely not. It's funny sure, but at the end of the day it's a gimmick. It's pretty damn explosive once the crystals are charged anyways

[jagged flume]

Prisms are stupidly expensive and you gain at most a few seconds of burst

[desert hornet]

I'd expect railfans to rain king in 2v2 because of the possibility of a shot in the side/rear

[lilac glen]

If you split a ship apart with an explosive charge does it still only count as one ship for the purpose of the 5 ship limit?

[jagged flume]

Yes, there's nothing against use of explosive charges

[surreal pecan]

@sharp bane Is this thing any good? I think it is a really dope ship, and I have to give you credit for it.

It has more nukes but less storage for them.

[sharp bane]

I'll have to look at the shield layout in-game, but on the whole it looks solid. I'm concerned that some of the nukes may hit the ship when it is spinning though, have you tested it? In particular the ones directly to the right of a protruding crew quarter.

the lower spin thrust is, I reckon a good compromise - mine doesn't need to spin as fast as it does.

looks like you could probably run every module off a medium reactor, or could maybe try extending the larges to supply two modules (I mean heck, maybe it could work with three large reactors with a non-conventional asymmetric spinner design), but that's your call. LRs will refill the shields faster than MRs, though looking at your number of crew, you may need some more to fully utilise the reactors.

testing it vs a ship that is constantly firing at it to see how long it takes shields to go back online and how well the crew is utilised is a great method. Since these designs are fast and rely on hit and run vs most ships though, they don't need perfect shield sustain to do well in favourable matches

what's your top speed?

(the engine design looks to be very nicely space-optimised btw, getting 4 thrust blocks at that size is great)

[trim kestrel]

I'm still looking for a teammate for the tournament if anyone wants to join, I'd love to help any newer players if your interested in learning.

[sharp bane]

polar is definitely worth teaming up with, would be a great catch for anyone still looking for a teammate 👀

[desert hornet]

Oh hey, me too!; altho i wouldnt call myself a new player.

[sharp bane]

speed in-game is very solid, 95-100m/s is wonderful for a mobile spinner fort. The shield layout looks solid too, though I am slightly concerned about how exposed the control rooms are, there is a single large shield in one spot over them and they are likely prone to random EMPs/EB shots, not to mention lucky railfans.

[rough oracle]

The nukes don't get caught by the quarters right?

[sharp bane]

seems to be fine at this spin speed

[jagged flume]

I'm pinning people looking for teammates by the way

[limber sparrow]

Two questions, do we have to have a partner Is it only 2v2? and How many ships are you allowed as long as you don't go over budget?

[jagged flume]

As many as you want, and yes you need a partner

[hollow socket]

What if you chose an Ai as the partner

[white apex]

can i be my own partner on another computer or do i get banned forever

[jagged flume]

Just don't get caught and I would never know. However, just find a partner because it's remarkably easy

[chilly barn]

In game announcment!

[limber sparrow]

Anyone looking for a tournament partner? @ me!

[limber sparrow]

I can be your teammate Polar Bear! :)

If you want.

[jagged flume]

@trim kestrel doesn't pay attention to discord so you have to ping him

[desert hornet]

@trim kestrel ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[sharp bane]

this is becoming like a dating show and polar is the eligible bachelor

[chilly barn]

Looks like it

[white apex]

i need partner too lol idk if qawa's doing it

[hollow socket]

Milk should get in with joro

[chilly barn]

?????

[hollow socket]

I had meant quix

[chilly barn]

Hmm

[hollow socket]

If we bring 5 ships to the tournament, and they are all used in the same battles, would they all get paint?
Or only 3 of them

Or if every round we use a different 1.5m ship

[trim kestrel]

you say this at 2am

[white apex]

:O same timezone

[hollow socket]

Indeed, he doesn't pay attention to discord, while unconscious

[odd zealot]

Im loking for a teamate. Any voulenteres?

[jagged flume]

Best way to get a response is to say something wrong 😛

[desert hornet]

@jagged flume you can unpin me, i thought the tourney was at 11am, but after re-reading the google doc i saw that it will be at 11pm, meaning i wont be able to participate. D:

[jagged flume]

Unfortunate but I'm glad you tell me now before you signed up

[reef bloom]

I don’t use it bc some of the railfans I go up against can kill it but also bc that’s a boring af matchup

[surreal pecan]

Yes, they sometimes hit my ship, which needs fixing.

Air asked me to remake the ship for me and... This is what he made.

Abomination.

[surreal pecan]

Thanks.

[sharp bane]

hmm, better sustain on the shields over the reactors but don't think it's worth the big weakpoints created between segments

[surreal pecan]

The top speed is Well above 110 MPS without the module spinning and messing it up, but with the jerky movement whilst the outer spinner ring is actually spinning, it still reaches above 100MPS.

[sharp bane]

yeah, mine moves exactly 100m/s before detaching and around 90m/s while spinning

[surreal pecan]

Still good speed, definitely nothing to scoff at.

Ohh, I need to go for a while, I'll be back though (I'd love to talk with you a bit more)

[sharp bane]

guess my main critique of air's version would be, what's the point of having 5x layered shields when another part of the ship has a gap with 0 shielding and the single shields have the worst sustain due to distance from reactor

cya!

[chilly barn]

What's the crs?

[autumn maple]

well did they

[surreal pecan]

Yeah Air forgot CRs XDDD

And also the damned point defence.

[autumn maple]

imo its just a literaly waste of money

[surreal pecan]

.....And the smiley face on the explosive charge, because this is Air we're talking.

[autumn maple]

oh god

not the scary smile bomb

and the red nose ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[surreal pecan]

Clown Jumpscare 🃏

[sharp bane]

hmmmn maybe I should adopt that idea

[hollow socket]

There is a design error, a singular hallway blocks some of the shielding

[white apex]

yes :D

[limber sparrow]

with the victory condition of 90%, does this mean that even if you blow up all their CR's and Reactors, and a large section of their ship still exists, say a bunch of missile launchers, have they lost? Or do you have to destroy those until 90% as well

[jagged flume]

Sections without CRs are considered dead

[limber sparrow]

oooo okay cool.

[hollow socket]

If 1.35m of the enemy ship is dead, that player will not win, it being teams of two that is 2.7m of dead ship.
But it is best to just kill the cr's rather than slowly trimming the enemy down until they meet the minimum requirements of a defeat

[surreal pecan]

True

[hollow socket]

Zquey is in the tournament, nice

[snow seal]

lets go nugg

[sweet saffron]

would this be allowed? (no external programs/scripts/software/resources were used to modify the file of this ship)
REDACTED FILE

[chilly barn]

so what did you do to modify the file?

oh I know I think, you just saved the parts?

[sweet saffron]

oh shoot people know

[chilly barn]

LOL

well if you do that you won't have the crew roles right?

[jagged flume]

No, if you pull this crap in the tournament you and your partner will both be immediately disqualified

[sweet saffron]

figures

[jagged flume]

If it figures why even ask and make other people aware of it?

[sweet saffron]

and I'm not trying to ruin anyones fun here, idk what's with the seemingly harsh response

[jagged flume]

I'll take your word for it being harsh, that wasn't my intention, but I thought the rules were pretty clear on modifying your ship's appearance

[sweet saffron]

it's not modified in any way its just how it gets saved

REDACTED stuff in REDACTED REDACTED and click the REDACTED

[jagged flume]

Please do share how you've done this then

[sweet saffron]

normally you just have the four REDACTED

[jagged flume]

Thank you kindly for bringing this to my attention

I've removed 'artificially' from the "Do not artificially replace or edit the visual appearance of your ship" clause

[snow seal]

maybe there will be a meta where people use ship image editing to make their ships look better and not for nefarious purposes