Seraph Feedback Thread

[rose atlas]

just use cleansing rain 🥀

[mystic lantern]

you WILL use your soulsinger and you WILL like it

[high quest]

We lost rampant miasma 😢

[short adder]

Rampant Miasma was reworked before Seraph

[radiant isle]

Miasma is like, awesome now

[mystic lantern]

i love miasma ❤️

also unrelated but r2 seraph is so fucking peak

[rose atlas]

expand

[high quest]

Does having 0% str amplifier mean u have a 1 in 5 chance it does nothing or does it remove str from the roll table

[rose atlas]

removes buff 50% sure

[short adder]

You get a 0% strength buff

[radiant isle]

yup... which maybe can be changed to remove it from the pool

[mystic lantern]

@plush stone we are playing completely different games i think

i dont understand how you think seraph is bad in r2

[rose atlas]

what build are you using for r2?

[mystic lantern]

ian build

[rose atlas]

the 50 ehp one?

[forest lion]

I’ve been playing r2 seraph it’s pretty cool
I do think high pts r2 is just much harder than high pts r3 just in general
Every class feels that way
At least in my experience

[plush stone]

It is bad because I activate my spec ability only to watch to do less then a quarter of the damage paladin achieves. Ranged paladian is better in every way, every single way. Paladian is the most fair comparison I can make since its on the same class

[radiant isle]

same but with the greatest weapon of all time, firecoral lance

[mystic lantern]

https://odetomisery.vercel.app/builder/m=Stormborn Javelin&o=Muranic Urn&h=Crest of the Tundra&c=Veil's Horizon&l=Primordial Skin&b=Lieutenant's Storm&charm=None

[plush stone]

luminous infusion is an aoe skill that is better single target then hallowed beam in that region

[mystic lantern]

? im doing up to 60 damage with my orbs, and thats unbuffed?

have you played seraph with the recent changes?

[radiant isle]

I am sorry how is 16 damage more than 26 (+9)

[rose atlas]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/751480380632334457/1257747973023072256/togif-8.gif

[plush stone]

that is a 25 second cooldown to do about the same damage as elemental arrows, an ability with no cooldown and the same range.

[rose atlas]

6 second cd isn't it?

[teal dagger]

EArrows and Ascension are hardly comparable

[mystic lantern]

what are you on about lmfao

yeah like what?

[rose atlas]

anws add inf flight and like nerf scout

[plush stone]

they are both moves that make your ranged attacks deal 3 block splash damage?

[teal dagger]

one leverages other abilities on the kit to achieve unique goals while having weak splash damage while one functions as a burst mode that turns all projectiles into full aoe attacks

[high quest]

Er

Dont earrows only do 20% dmg on their aoe

[teal dagger]

yep

EArrows is mainly carried by Spirits and Spellshock

[rose atlas]

what are we even talking about rn

[short adder]

apples and oranges, mostly

[teal dagger]

good question!

[rose atlas]

mage talk in seraph

[plush stone]

I have been playing more seraph today, the ascension dash is pretty good tbh. Although I noticed myself using ascension for ONLY the dash and not the attack, like I would use ascension just so I can dash and fire maybe 1 orb to mark a mob then toggle off ascension.

[teal dagger]

https://tenor.com/view/throwing-stone-gif-18663989

[mystic lantern]

im refraining

[short adder]

notably, earrows doesn't grant other players a 30% damage + haste 2 buff

[plush stone]

The dash is really all I feel that has significantly improved the class, which is a good stop in the right direction but the skill is still not particularly powerful.

[rose atlas]

uhh

idk what to say about that

[plush stone]

I mean sure thats fair, but like I was comparing a spec ability to a non spec ability. The point was just that this spec ability to a passive, the point was just to show that the damage it deals is not strong in comparison to the rest of the game.

[teal dagger]

uninteractable statement really

[mystic lantern]

yeah idk

[forest lion]

I think particularly in r2 seraph really don’t have good aoe
So ascension aoe while not particularly strong is pretty needed sometimes

[mystic lantern]

i disagree?

[high quest]

Arent u comparing 4sp and a spec ability to a spec ability there…

[mystic lantern]

its aoe is quite potent, ive noticed in my delving this past week

[short adder]

like earrows + spirit is both a normal ability, a spec ability, and one with zero utility both for movement and team buffs and is on a spec entirely dedicated to damage

[rose atlas]

do we have a list rn with everything thats been agreed upon that needs to be changed?

[teal dagger]

Ascension damage output is honestly a carry in R2 sometimes

[short adder]

i genuinely hope it performs worse

[plush stone]

the movement of ascension is still a double edged sword, your very vulnerable wen your dash is on cooldown and your unable to go backwards smoothly.

its hard to dodge groups of ranged enemies firing at you for example

[rose atlas]

i would say yes to that but you could block with a shield

[forest lion]

Oh in that sense
Yeah it’s not weak
I think I’m just having too much of a crazy vision for it 😂

[rose atlas]

it isn't the best idea to solve the issue but the only shield breaks you get is from magic attacks in ascension

[plush stone]

blocking with a shield means I am not killing the mobs and losing duration on my timed ability though.

[rose atlas]

so dash then swap to bow?

[teal dagger]

if only you had some sort of powerful offense to generate space and control in combat while you float

also the bobbing on Ascension low key fucks with ranged mob aiming too

[plush stone]

well like the problem is that I watch the elites tank everything and still catch up to me while I am wearing 5 damage pieces.

[graceful gale]

this user does not use beam

[mystic lantern]

its true

[graceful gale]

that literally never happens when i played seraph

[unique cradle]

this sounds like exactly the thing you should be saving beam for

[rose atlas]

thats 2 different issues, defense in ascension and dmg

[plush stone]

beam only kills one elite, there are several

[teal dagger]

alright well we are playing different games then because you do NOT need to run glass or anything near it to handle elites

[rose atlas]

doesn't beam go through enemy's?

[unique cradle]

Why does my support spec not oneshot everything, an essay

[plush stone]

why are you being so indigenous and putting words in my mouth every time you talk to me

I have never been asking for seraph to become a killing machine this whole time

[unique cradle]

that wasn't putting words in your mouth I'm making a joke

[plush stone]

I want it to complete basic tasks

[rose atlas]

he didn't?

[unique cradle]

because, it really is fine

[forest lion]

r2 elite is like
1 beam 3-5 attacks maybe
It’s not like it’s taking 10 shots to kill
on 12pt

[unique cradle]

and idk whats your setup + pts

[plush stone]

r2 elite tanks 3 beams

and then turns into a dread which tanks 3 more beams

[unique cradle]

are you spamming all 3 beams and doing nothing else

[rose atlas]

ascension isn't used for beam spam?

its literally used for a bow power boost with aoe?

[viscid tapir]

remind me what kind of item you need to be holding to cast beam

[plush stone]

elites often also tank divine justice hit + 3 beams, the skill does 40 damage in r2 its not strong

elites have over 200 health and 2 tap you

[rose atlas]

we have a bow?

[viscid tapir]

the word is "disingenuous"

[teal dagger]

matching this experience to the fact that you've tried to run glass and I can only logically conclude that the elite in question is Forum Ent because how the fuck do you not kill an elite in 3

[unique cradle]

I'm being a native tribe

[plush stone]

I am running glass in r3 because the class isnt killing anything and then I still watch it not kill anything after trying to make it do more damage with everything I can think off.

[rose atlas]

hierophant isn't suppose to be ability spam like paladin? its suppose to be bow'ing while using ability's to buff other's or buff your bow?

[teal dagger]

I ran an uninfused Seraph set featuring Veil's Horizon and Primordial Skin as most if not all of the notable damage on the set and it would take 2 beams maximum

[rose atlas]

hang on what build were you using?

[mystic lantern]

^^ literally same in high points

[teal dagger]

tested on every elite in 25pt Light Gray, Cyan, Pink, Teal, and Forum (excluding Forum Ent)

[mystic lantern]

im starting to think you might be making things up

[wintry canyon]

Why is every copy of Monumenta personalized

[plush stone]

r2 cleric doesn't have other abilities, illuminate hits for 25 damage with C blessing up, most of your game play is using trident ball.

its just not capable of dealing with legionare i'm not sure what more to say

[mystic lantern]

me when i sneak in the elites that take 5 beams to kill into miracles copy of monumenta

[teal dagger]

me when I spread misinformation (Illuminate+CBless hits for ~30 base damage before all other scaling)

[rose atlas]

so why are you acting like seraph is suppose to instantly kill enemy's when using beam? its suppose to be crowd support and healing/buffing teammates not a oneshot?

[teal dagger]

aaaand I am nerd reacted

[plush stone]

ya okay what ever it does FIVE more damage then what I said

[fluid estuary]

you deserve it (but you're still right regardless!)

[teal dagger]

5 BASE damage that also is functionally 20% more damage

[edgy path]

it’s really just impossible to have a conversation about seraph when half of the people are playing it as a solo clear class and half of the people are playing it as a support class

[plush stone]

since the other support classes have better clear then it, by like a lot

[rose atlas]

subclasses when classes are built to be multipurpose:

[graceful gale]

i played it as a solo class and its still fine

[teal dagger]

maybe but how am I having a better time offensively in an uninfused hybrid set than miracle is in glass

[graceful gale]

never saw any issues in clear

[plush stone]

support does not mean the class needs to be weak

[mystic lantern]

its

not

beam and asc are fine

[graceful gale]

at this point

go record an encounter

[mystic lantern]

virtue needss some tuning but like

the class performs well in r2

coming from my solo and team delves in r2

[viscid tapir]

its clear that youre the only person who thinks the class is a weak clearer

[rose atlas]

could you explain which subclasses are you talking about?

[unique cradle]

probably shaman

?

[rose atlas]

shaman is healing and cdr not buffing teammates?

[fluid estuary]

Apoth maybe? but honestly seraph just is more powerful than apoth damage wise

[plush stone]

soothsayer and apothecary are the other 2 "support" classes and are stronger then seraph (gap is closer in r3)

[teal dagger]

comparing any class to Shaman is unironically disingenuous since that class is overtuned as all fucking shit

[graceful gale]

?

[fluid estuary]

apoth's clear power comes from good mobility and ability to live but seraph just does more damage than apoth no matter how you slice it

[rose atlas]

just nerf shaman

[fluid estuary]

Apoth is just not stronger than seraph lol (1 damage ability on 20s (?) cd vs. 3)

[plush stone]

we cannot just ignore an entire class when talking about class balance

[mystic lantern]

shaman wont be alive much longer.

[unique cradle]

Thy end is now

[wintry canyon]

What are you doing to Shaman

[plush stone]

shaman is the meta its fair to bring it up

[mystic lantern]

im at its place of residence

[fluid estuary]

not incl. base alch but its still not as much damage output (Brutal DOT + AA + Amalgam...)

[rose atlas]

shaman should not be meta

[wintry canyon]

Christ.

[mystic lantern]

also like?

[teal dagger]

not a fair perception to have since this assumes that every class that you use in comparison will be balanced on their own

[rose atlas]

so the issue is with seraph with your point of standing is shaman?

burn the class

[plush stone]

its hard for me to keep up since chat is being spammed but like this is not true, most of the thread so far as been people calling the class weak (and its not like the class was reinvented in one update)

[short adder]

soothsayer has better consistent AoE but is a much worse supporter outside of Chain Healing Wave

[fluid estuary]

I think seraph should be nerfed because its stronger than apoth. real.

[plush stone]

I am being rage baited, this isnt what I am saying at all

most of my comparisons have been to paladian

[teal dagger]

CZ Frostborn can kill an Elite Dread with one ability that can hit an aoe the size of a continent, so I am going to use this class in a comparison to rationalize why Mage should be allowed to do the same thing (ignore prenerf Null Agglomerate for 1 second)

[rose atlas]

alright explain how are you comparing to paladin?

[graceful gale]

so how is a spec with no support abilities compared to seraph

[plush stone]

I did so for like 50 messages in this thread already?

[teal dagger]

definitely wouldn't say NO support abilities (Choir Bells is debuffer + taunt)

[rose atlas]

i'm asking for a location on where you described it not just a comment

[fluid estuary]

to be fair they did talk about pala

[graceful gale]

(1 compared to 3)

[teal dagger]

also base class but semantics

[fluid estuary]

Asc is a support ability?

[viscid tapir]

ok but like

[wintry canyon]

Oh wow ranged paladin

[rose atlas]

it buffs players around you

[wintry canyon]

I hate ranged Paladin I will not lie

[graceful gale]

gives haste and damage if you hit players

[fluid estuary]

i only play solo tbh so i never realized; thats fun

[viscid tapir]

youre literally just making up shit about it and/or exposing yourself for playing in a kind of not great way

[rose atlas]

slop paladin before jb nerfs

[viscid tapir]

like you kinda implied that youre trying to kill an elite by just

dumping beams into it

and nothing else

thats not what the spec is

[solar sonnet]

then how do u kill an elite

[rose atlas]

bow

ascension + bow

[solar sonnet]

ur allays are weak, asc is too long of a cooldown

[unique cradle]

dj bow...

[viscid tapir]

you might have to actually use the weapon you're holding to cast the beam

[unique cradle]

the horrors

[viscid tapir]

the weapon is more than a stat stick

[short adder]

cycle beam with your main weapon to maximize seal damage

[solar sonnet]

so how many hits will that take?

[viscid tapir]

which is the entire reason beam became flat damage and not mainhand scaling in the first place

[unique cradle]

probably like 4

[rose atlas]

i think the issue is the fact that people are wanting the class to become a dps class instead of a mix of support and dps

[plush stone]

@rose atlas I mean like I talked about it a few days ago in the thread already (whole rants all start here)

[unique cradle]

not even DPS, sustained burst damage

[solar sonnet]

no i want the class to have clearing power

its not even dps

[rose atlas]

alright thank you

[viscid tapir]

so the weapon would stop being a stat stick and start being a thing you use to kill things in the intended manner as well
but it seems people have missed that anyway

[unique cradle]

Too lantern prism pilled

[solar sonnet]

it literally asking for a singular bers hit

on dumping full abils

[plush stone]

I think hallowed beam should be capable of killing a dreading

in r2

[wintry canyon]

We need to bring back clip based balancing I think

I can't tell whose right or wrong

[solar sonnet]

if u need like 2 beams and 3 bow hits to kill a singular elite in r3

its just bad

[viscid tapir]

it has clearing power

[rose atlas]

which support are we talking about in paladin, bells?

[viscid tapir]

...?

fine i'll take the bait

should we buff scout

[rose atlas]

nerf scout

[viscid tapir]

should scout be able to kill in two tridents and one ball then

[plush stone]

Blessing, bells, just being able to kill so many more mobs then seraph can.

[solar sonnet]

scout takes a pstrike or like a razor and a bow hit

[viscid tapir]

since clearly five hits is too many

[solar sonnet]

and its not like beam is a short cd spell or aoe

[rose atlas]

wait... nerf scout... scout uses bow... seraph = bow... nerf seraph

[viscid tapir]

acting like half of hunters dont run split 2 pin 2

[solar sonnet]

its a 10s cooldown on a single target and dj is also single target

[radiant isle]

x ability only does y damage which is less than z (completely differnet and uncomparable thing) is a dubious argument I think
playing the game has lead me to believe seraph is doing very well

[plush stone]

hunter in r2 can very viability run split 2, pin 1, pred 1 and its good since pred helps you defeat elites covering your weakness well.

[rose atlas]

i think the pet needs a buff

[solar sonnet]

i feel like people are playing really slow and then thinking the spec is fine

[rose atlas]

what is the name of the ability?

[solar sonnet]

like

[fierce dawn]

keeper virtue

[solar sonnet]

every class is fine

if you play at the pace of a sloth

the cooldowns are too long

[fluid estuary]

honestly i think the class name should've been kept Hierophant and Keeper Virtue should've been called Seraph but its okay!

[rose atlas]

keeper virtue is fun to have but its a bug zaper dps wise

[viscid tapir]

ive been running split 2 pin 2 for months in r2 and its been fine

[graceful gale]

yeah the class cant clear guys look how long it takes me to kill an elite

[viscid tapir]

you just

[rose atlas]

i dont have much knowledge on the healing but in r2 its a bit weird

[short jasper]

oh i only use beam for healing for r2 basically and for r3 it's a nice extra bit of dmg

[viscid tapir]

shoot the elite until it dies

woe is me i had to shoot five times with bow and then volley to kill all the spiders

terrifying

[amber sequoia]

1razor

[viscid tapir]

plus i feel like basing clear ability entirely on the basis of can it kill elites is kind of dubious

[wintry canyon]

Nice hacks (My video isnt loading )

[teal dagger]

fuck I forgot to even try Covenmourn lmao

[graceful gale]

cmourn ball is very cool

i think

[viscid tapir]

i cant lie i dont even know what all the abils are with sins of the voracious 😭

[plush stone]

the main thing I am thinking when playing seraph is just "why am I not playing paladin instead". Ethereal ascension takes a long time to do a fraction of the damage my luminous infusion can, all while its less flexible, with less damage and a longer cooldown. The support ascension has means nothing when I am by myself so its not really a nice consolation prize.

[viscid tapir]

but yeah truth nuke it really doesnt struggle with elites

[mystic lantern]

sorry they didnt die in 1 sec so its kinda ass bud,,,

[plush stone]

I do still feel that seraph is just stuck in paladins shadow

the other spec just does stronger things then this class can, I dont see the reason you want to play seraph other then wanting to have fun playing the new class

[viscid tapir]

consolation prize

[amber sequoia]

Too slow on a 40s ability paladin already end them in 1 nanosecond with LI

[plush stone]

firefox has bad spell checking leaving me alone 😭

[teal dagger]

but also this clear speed actually is shit because Rogue and Mage and Berserker would've ended the fight in a third of the time at most so this class is terrible awful doodoo dogshit

[viscid tapir]

that raises more questions why are you using browser discord

[short adder]

it's like saying "why would i play soothsayer solo when hexbreaker exists" man
one's more useful for team support and one's more selfish

[graceful gale]

true everyone should just switch to mage

[solar sonnet]

can we not do that here

[viscid tapir]

not even a dunk atp im just curious

[graceful gale]

its like how species keep evolving into crabs

[teal dagger]

all roads lead to overcentralizing nuke charm

started a tally on how many times we can reinvent the wheel

lost count

[solar sonnet]

i think we should keep things civil

[plush stone]

thats a good comparison, but currently soothsayer is very competitive with hexbreaker even if it is a worse class overall.

[teal dagger]

I am beyond rational behavior so I'm going to leave

[plush stone]

Serpah is, if I am being kind half as good as paladin where as sooth is like 80% as good as hexbreaker

[solar sonnet]

calling everything bait does not really make this discussion better

[short adder]

it's one valid chain healing wave nerf from this not being the case

[plush stone]

that is fair but like sooth has high tier clear too so like the class is eating good

[amber sequoia]

haste2 tax

[rose atlas]

so seraph is bad because shaman exists?\

[plush stone]

the apothecary to harbinger comparison is also close as well I feel

[rose atlas]

thats true ig

[radiant isle]

I'm trying to understand how asc somehow deals less damage than LI because I'm looking at the numbers right now and it... isn't

Every single one of my orbs deal more damage than an LI explosion

[short adder]

like, I can see what you're getting at but I feel like the more you push Seraph's offense, the more likely it becomes that Seraph just becomes ranged paladin with extremely potent support abilities attached. I already think Seraph massively outshines Paladin in a group setting

[solar sonnet]

it has 2x less radius

[mystic lantern]

it came to me,, in a dream,,,

[plush stone]

LI is burst and is stacked on top of another attack, so it kills the mobs quicker

[solar sonnet]

i think most of seraphs support comes from healing anyways

most damage supports are just cbless

[short adder]

beam seals are a colossal damage boost for melee and proj specs in R2 and ascension orbs are twice as effective as a damage boost than thurible2 with the small caveat that you have to use it at opportune moments and get kills rather than it being always on and passive

[forest lion]

Is this like
A+B is better than C
So B>C

[plush stone]

it also does not slow down your movement and can be used as recklessly or conservatively as you want, its a much more flexible skill which means a lot.

[solar sonnet]

not so small with half uptime

calling 2x potential half uptime "2x effective with small caveat" is just wrong

[radiant isle]

And you can fire 10x as many of them? the argument of damage does not make sense to me, it sounds like there's more intricate factors here

[solar sonnet]

u can argue its better but the uptime is not that much

[rose atlas]

Im looking for just what you're trying to say, it feels like you're arguing with everything that is with the class

so what is the problem in your view?

[solar sonnet]

ascension is an ultimate on a 25s cooldown

and without ascension it should still be clearing good

[forest lion]

Isn’t LI on 20 also
It’s not that far off

[plush stone]

I guess but like thats just how luminous works as a skill, its not really right to not include the other attack its being used along side with

thats like looking at mage skills without considering spell shock

[rose atlas]

miracles stand of point btw
(not saying you're wrong but it feels like the entire chat is arguing with one person)

[solar sonnet]

ascension can clear good sure but the class being a singular nuke just makes it like tene where u use an ability and now ur left with nothing

[radiant isle]

Not quite since ascension's cooldown starts when the ability ends

[forest lion]

Then you should compare to A+C

[solar sonnet]

its realistically on a 35-40s cooldown

[short adder]

i mean you can chain orbs to get up to a 20s buff duration
using dew and ToR at the correct moments can squash the ascension downtime to only a few seconds and that's just in R2

[radiant isle]

Beam and virtue should in theory be able to hold the class up well enough during ascension downtime

[solar sonnet]

virtue doesnt

beam maybe but virtue is just weak i think

[radiant isle]

Yes I'm aware it's not quite there but it is the theory

[rose atlas]

couldn't there be a charm thats changes the core of the move? short cd with less nuking

[solar sonnet]

it should be better than fox

[teal dagger]

it's moreso Beam and a good aoe proj weapon but yeah it does fill in the gaps

[solar sonnet]

bandaid charm doesnt work in r2

[radiant isle]

Ashkii galero is exactly this now

[rose atlas]

it isn't suppose to be a bandaid, its a nuke move. r3 lets people change gameplays so?

[plush stone]

My mean issue with the class is virtue. But in general I don't think the class is a underpowered and like like some parts of its kit to be pushed so it has a more dedicated niche

[mystic lantern]

this has been addressed many times already

we all understand virtue kinda is ass right now

[solar sonnet]

i feel like the ultimate ability just makes it so the class is weak without it

[rose atlas]

ult moves in monumenta is a weird idea

[solar sonnet]

if the class is strong without it its op with it

if its ok with it its weak without it

[plush stone]

like if beam was a stronger skill theres reason to run seraph instead of paladin for its superior single target damage. Or if ascension was a more capable nuke, then i would feel good using it instead of luminous infusion.

[mystic lantern]

dude the wheel is fucking real

we just went full circle

[viscid tapir]

honestly i tend to completely forget ascension exists for long stretches of time and just clear with like

beam illu hol

and it still holds up so i really dont know what the complaints are

[solar sonnet]

whats the environment

[viscid tapir]

12-25pt clear

[solar sonnet]

also im arguing from a balance standpoint

you cant balance a strong ability on a long cooldown if u want it to clear without it

[graceful gale]

you can very much clear without it

[rose atlas]

Ashkii galero is the idea but for the gameplay people are wanting (fast usage and recover) the cd still feels to long

[radiant isle]

to that I simply disagree

[rose atlas]

[teal dagger]

you can if the tool provides a unique benefit that the class otherwise cannot access

Ascension gives some of the best true aoe coverage in the game coupled with a unique method of mobility and indirect sustainability mixed together

[rose atlas]

anws any thoughts on multiple virtues?

[teal dagger]

sure you can clear without Ascension, but Ascension can benefit you if you apply it correctly

[radiant isle]

yes my thoughts are that I would explode trying to code it

[solar sonnet]

what if virtue was u can stack multiple it regens over time and u press a key

and then it all just goes free

[rose atlas]

fair enough

[fluid estuary]

i dont think you would heart (virtue + 1 charm when) (in all seriousness it should be pretty simple tm hopefully)

[rose atlas]

waiting for summoner build in monumenta

[teal dagger]

ok so hear me out for just a moment, split the Virtue into an attacker and a healer

[rose atlas]

thats kinda dumb

its like removing a core mechanic of the move

[light kayak]

The virtue gets schizophrenia

[teal dagger]

this implies that the core mechanic is that there is only one of them

[mystic lantern]

can we sacrifice our teammates to fuel our virtue

[rose atlas]

insane idea

i cant wait for 10 seraph to drain my health

in sirius

[plush stone]

I mean sure, in my head I was doing this but I did not really explain. Ascension does preform better when you use like hand of light + orb attack at the same time. Compared to LI though, lumnoius can be combined with more attacks plus its still stronger when combined with the same attacks Ascension can be paired with. There is also a major difference between r2 and r3 here; in r2 the gap between the 2 skills then it is in r3 where ascension is better.

[mystic lantern]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1133866289601970347/1404178530828550216/1370959767216066700.webp

[plush stone]

in gameplay I found myself using hand of light (with zoetic gas to be clear) + ascension basically every time I used the skill

[forest lion]

Does that even numerically make sense

[plush stone]

yes since in r3 luminous has better charms

[forest lion]

I thought we’re in r2
r3 I don’t play much yet can’t say much

[plush stone]

It is very hard to talk about 2 regions at the same time 🥴

[rose atlas]

how did the testers react to virtue

[high quest]

I wish virtue was a lot better

[rose atlas]

who doesn't

[plush stone]

in r2 you are 2 shoting mobs with both classes, which is rather slow (paladian is far from a top tier class there). Difference is that paladin has complete freedom of movement then seraph has, with better uptime on its abilities and can out damage with luminous + divine justice at the same time (albeit to a single target, but thats all you need sometimes).

[rose atlas]

so what you're saying is that there's better options for clearing poi's?

[amber sequoia]

Bewitched Lantern worths +300% damage icl

[plush stone]

no I am only talking about delves here, since it does not matter what class you play for the rest of r2

[amber sequoia]

It’s weaker than geas

[plush stone]

as far as I am concerned seraph is a top tier class at the chillwood pois

[rose atlas]

seraph weakness is a cieling

[plush stone]

thats a litlte unfair but delves are all we have for endgame in r2 (besides dd of course)

[gilded escarp]

30 how? the base damage is 15

[plush stone]

so like I kinda have to use delves as the metric since were else am I supposed to compare classes in

[teal dagger]

looks like I am also spreading misinformation

what is its damage

[plush stone]

acutally facts, its really hard to use ascension in close corridors

[rose atlas]

beserker but without jumping

[teal dagger]

15 base or does the 15 have like CBless put in

[gilded escarp]

its 30 with hailstone equipped but we're talking about r2

[teal dagger]

I deny Hailstorm anyway it's all g

[gilded escarp]

15 base at lvl 2

[rose atlas]

i think the real issue for seraph is the fact that scout didn't get a majour nerf in the changelog

[plush stone]

i talk so much about LI but whats even more important is just that paladin's 3 abilties together is a more well rounded kit.

[rose atlas]

@radiant isle with your design why did you add a health bar to virtue?

[amber sequoia]

prevent blizzard v2

[plush stone]

like javelin is not a crazy ability but it does do much better then virtue and holds its weight for you. Bells is very great and really improves your splash damage when you need it the most.

[rose atlas]

expand on that

[amber sequoia]

❌

[rose atlas]

How dare you.

[amber sequoia]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-speech-bubble-gif-25592479

[plush stone]

the health bar on virtue I do like a lot, the design of the skill makes a lot of sense (giving the support spec its own ally to buff makes perfect sense, it makes the class's support not go to waste when playing alone) it just sucks math wise.

[forest lion]

I think you need to compare skills 1 to 1 I don’t think many people like that
If anything I would compare javelin to beam
But you don’t
You see the issue
They are not 1 to 1

[radiant isle]

because I wanted it to have a unique mechanic you have to interact with really

[plush stone]

like it does 7 damage and only attacks undead, thats the real problem more so then needing to heal it

[plush stone]

well for javelin vs beam, beam does win that comparison pretty easily. Javelins problem is also being a weak skill, it remains useful for being a flexible skill that is good at marking and being paired with LI/justice. Beam is better at damage but doesent really mesh well with the other skills since virtue is too weak (it does more damage to shoot the mobs then virtue gets out of the heal).

Javelin is the worst pala skill but it does have its place in the class and is worth using.

[unique cradle]

You, uh, can't buff it

You buff yourself and it scales off you

[plush stone]

Yes you cannot and it makes me very sad

[rose atlas]

realistically in the moveset does virtue actually fit into the kit?

[plush stone]

it really feels like you should be able to buff it with the other skills, right now only beam buffs it

if virtue was not bad it fits very well I feel

[wintry canyon]

You buff it with cbless and it becomes super macho 😼

[forest lion]

the reason you can't buff it currently is because its damage is counted as your damage, and you buff it by buffing yourself
but there's the idea of making the virtue not inherit the buff from you and receives buffs from outer source like from you

[fluid estuary]

what if you could press virtue trigger while it was active to consume hp and do big aoe around virtue (healing or damage depending on current virtue mode)

[forest lion]

curse of too many triggers I think

[fluid estuary]

makes virtue stronger and makes health a bigger resource to manage

[plush stone]

and then make TOR reduce teh virtue aoe attack cooldown 🙏

[fluid estuary]

it would be like old reckless swing but virtue!

[plush stone]

virtue could be a really cool skill

[plush stone]

I would not mind deleting virtues healing completely if it needs another trigger to work with. The class has 2 other heal moves already, 3 if you count boon as another; which are all better then virtue is at healing anyways so its not a huge loss.

like virtue could just have, attack stance, idle stance, special attack key (over the current heal mode key)

[fluid estuary]

Virtue is an angel; angels should heal! idk if its actually inspired by but Eos/Selene/Seraph from FFXIV would not be the same without the healing

[mystic lantern]

virtue healing right now is quite solid

its offensive capabilityi s quite weak both l1 and l2

and its buffs for both l1 and l2 are nothing burgers

[plush stone]

no it still does not heal the 61% HP player and makes me sad

[fluid estuary]

Ideally virtue could function with only two keybinds: Summon / Burst AOE which consumes health (if added, aka. cleric reckless swing) and Swap Mode (between both/heal/damage)

[mystic lantern]

this is intended

but i think the thresholds should be raised imo

[plush stone]

it is like kinda okay if you use in in drask but like thats it

[wintry canyon]

If they bring back reckless swing but as a virtue ability I will Rage Quit

[mystic lantern]

fuck you cocpad,

[wintry canyon]

?

[fluid estuary]

i think it would be funny cocopad

[wintry canyon]

I'll have to undergo metamorphosis to become Ex'holrim Dark Beast of Carnage

[mystic lantern]

its true

[unique cradle]

https://tenor.com/view/emo-gif-1771696518054862294

[plush stone]

as for the blizzard v2 thing, I feel like its not going to be a problem since virtue cannot be controlled precisely and has limited uptime by design. Things would have to go seriously wrong for it to become a solo ability like blizzard can be (like quadruple its current damage and thats still not enough to make it a solo ability)

for comparisons sake blizzard needed to do 50+ dps permanently to be a solo ability (and more then that to be a solo high points ability, which it cannot do anymore)

well there was the tank set stuff but like my point is just that virtue is very unlikely to become blizzard v2, so I would not be concerned about it

Of course it does not need to be a solo ability to be useful, it just needs to contribute meaningful damage to fights.

I want to talk a little bit about this charm here. the reason is that, I miss my orb radius a lot. Neurons new design makes the skill very limited as it restricts to to be basically only a heavy CC tool, as it does not have the duration to be used outside of this role very effectively, The issue is that I want the radius for those kinds of situations and the charm no longer has it. The low radius was always a big problem the skill had and I really valued the precious version of neuron for increasing it, so much so that I called neuron required. In its current state it is a 30% damage boost and an overall duration increase if you can kill sufficient mobs. Its acutally not that strong for 3 charm power epic imo, I had more success switching to hailstone instead.

The travel speed is like neat I guess but I think its not worth losing that radius at all. Although I also would be happy to just see the default radius increased (at least make it half of LI's radius, or equal to like illuminate radius)

[high quest]

i'm not a fan of the way neuron currently works yeah, but i guess it's just not for me

[plush stone]

oh I just remembered that LI and illu have the same radius, I was thinking about mourning star LI radius (since I think or mourning star when I think of paladin, that charm is so bonkers)

[faint hill]

Did some short POIs on offensive seraph, here are some random thoughts:

• so far its the best spec to ever perform in a 0pt arx unmwed. It cleared EASILY, really fast and i dont think i was hit even once.
• I switched over to 12pt (dread 5, twisted 5, arcanic 2) and it still performed ok. I can see where Miracle took his problems with dreads from, and killing elites was also quite a bit harder than in 0pt, but i feel like it was still within acceptable levels. Other than that, clearing went extremely well. Sure, it doesnt oneshot an elite along with the dread it dropped like scout volley and 2 tball cycles does, but you can deal with them reasonably well as long as you kite for long enough (i was often met with a situation of running like 6+ spawners back to not get hit while dealing with the dreadlings. Ascension performed really well on them, especially if you also cblessed during it)
• Used explosive component and still felt that my ascension damage was fine.
• Ascension actually feels very satisfying to use, and even if you dealt less damage than with dj (which im not even sure is the case) it would still be worth it cause you can reliably hit an entire spawner worth of mobs at once.
• I tried Ashkii Galero and it was definitely better suited to my playstyle for ascension than the base ability. Also, the most efficient use of ToR that ive figured out is:
  Cbless -> Asc -> wait til ascension finishes -> ToR so it affects both of these high cooldown duration based skills

Overall i kinda get where Miracle is coming from in terms of not enough damage, but rather than having specific arguments for it I myself just have a feeling of big contrast between delved and undelved. My abilities just felt like they didnt kill stuff when that was the case on other classes in same situations. As long as its not a gear, charm or skill issue it feels like seraph really falls off from being the peak 0pt spec to being a low-mid tier delve spec. (Still would definitely play and recommend. Very fun regardless of allat!)

Next ill probably try seraph in r2 when I have time, as thats certain to be interesting.

[plush stone]

do note that I was doing max points so those elites do just straight up have more health and more importantly have back up that matters. The class inst so bad that it just dies to a solo elite (nothing is THAT bad); it struggles vs boosted elite that has help.

I do wish I had metrics to look at that arent just delves, but there hardly anything else thats endgame to look at so its all I can really use to compare classes in. Like I dont think anybody wants to hear about hexfall seraph since thats just a different game and like hunt bosses are not particularly powerful.

[faint hill]

I mean... Complaining that seraph doesn't oneshot elites or dreadlings in a max pt is a very weird argument

It's been stated many times that balance reaches basically up to 22 points (or somewhere around that)

And any higher pts are not taken into account since they're too extreme

[dense oyster]

How well does seraph perform in intruder

[light kayak]

no aoe to clear no great single target dps

probably works cuz intruder is not that hard but is just a much much worse paladin

[plush stone]

seraph is very average in intruder ya

[faint hill]

This could also be the solution to your argument of "yeah seraph is fine, but why would I ever pick it instead of paladin". Well as long as there isn't a large power difference between the two in 22pt and below, you can comfortably play both since it's more preference and not need

Also, yeah hexfall and bosses are almost a different game

[light kayak]

i mean intruder still needs clear, if your class excels at that you can leave the dps to your duo

... it doesnt excel even at that though

[plush stone]

The thing is that the majority of the other classes can hold up, so its only fair for me to use this metric since the game has so many powerful classes right now.

It's easier to list the classes that struggle then the classes that can survive at high pts currently. The player is just really strong in r3

[faint hill]

I literally don't think that it is fair to use this metric

As I said, balance doesn't extend that high

Meaning whether classes perform well in high pts is more of an unintended consequence

Of course, I'm not a dev so call me out if I'm spitting absolute fake info

But buffing a class based specifically on a metric that is stated to not be taken into account when balancing is... Contradictory

[plush stone]

It sorta does extend this high indirectly and going forward it definitely should since theres only going to be more power creep coming forward.

[faint hill]

You can definitely form an argument for "balance should extend to higher pts"

[plush stone]

like I said that rogue is a little rough around the edges in the past, but that class is going to pop off once it gets its 4th enhancement point. With even more player power on the way we cannot stick to 25- points at the metric for anything.

[faint hill]

But i feel like the fact that you kept that as an implicit assumption instead of an explicit one hurt the previous discussions here for you

And also this thread might not be the place for that specific argument

Since it's muuuch larger than seraph

Also, my info on whether high pts are taken into account might be outdated. I'd love to hear from balance devs about this and how it is currently

If it's still not taken into account, I'd focus your energy on convincing them of your point of view on the scaling first, rather than talking about seraph specifically

[split sentinel]

okay this goes a little deeper than just balancing around 25 or max

if i may

[plush stone]

This is a different view point for sure. but its not something that only I think. A lot of players just only play high points or they dont play at all. I also noticed in general (not trying to point fingers, just in general). That I have seen casual players call seraph fine and high point players call seraph weak.

[faint hill]

Cause that will just lead to a fundamental disagreement that can't rly be solved without the underlying discussion

[split sentinel]

the expectation has been that we balance around 25pt for the majority, which is what we'd like to do

but it really is that the environment in R3 has shifted so much over time that that's no longer the case for everything

there's stuff that we just have to treat differently because of how much charms have changed things

If I had to give a rough estimate, balancing (For me not for others) for a solo player goes like this for each region:
R1: 12-18
R2: 12-22
R3: 25 and above

25 and above is a very loose statement obviously because of how delves are

but in the future we'd like to move towards making max points in R2 and max points in R3 more alike, leaning towards R2

so for now I'd like you to dedicate attention in R3 to 25pts and below if possible

[light kayak]

i am actually curious how do you balance around 25pt? or anything that isn't either max or none
there's so much variety in it, 25pt can both be hell and borderline delveless depending on what you select so how do you pick points to balance around

[faint hill]

I'm glad we got that out of the way

Discussions that are unproductive because of different underlying assumptions that aren't clearly stated is one of my biggest pet peeves

[split sentinel]

I won't say much on seraph since I've already gotten my experience playing it and I won't be able to really change a lot of your minds if I say it's good or it's bad, but if I am to say anything it feels like I have to put in more effort playing it for about expected output for a support class, which is more than I can say for a lot of things.

[plush stone]

agreed this is a lot of the reason why I like to do at minimum take every modifier when play testing something

[split sentinel]

I think it might also be a good idea to reframe how we look at classes from being able to end encounters almost instantly as the standard, and moving towards more thoughtful gameplay

because I see seraph being compared to other classes a lot and that's not the goal here guys

[light kayak]

well for some classes ending encounters instantly needs a whole bunch of thought

but yeah a lot are pretty brainless

[split sentinel]

it's a very general statement admittedly and doesnt account for everything said, but i just wanted to get it out of the way

[plush stone]

what is the goal then since the class does not exist in the vacuum.

[split sentinel]

to make it so that it is able to comfortably play solo and has a gameplay niche

xernial can elaborate more if he wants to

[plush stone]

I do think that seraph should be equal paladin

[split sentinel]

but personally i have only a few problems with it

virtue can probably be stronger and a few charms are weird

other than that asc feels fine to me

i'd like to compare experiences and variables so i can get an idea of what's going on

[plush stone]

sure that sounds great. I am just viewing the class in how it does in the game, right now more so then its potential in future context (since like I have no idea what it is)

[light kayak]

from my limited experience the main thing it's lacking is aoe
the damage is great but it's sorta like charmless brute force or earrows with no spirits

good damage to 1 mob but then everything around it just gets tickled

well i played vase idk if thats the issue

ive heard people use tball but. no. just no

[split sentinel]

If you're only using vase you're going to suffer in my experience

currently I'm dual wielding between oneiro mavros and vase

and the multishot helps me cover for my downtime

[light kayak]

does multishot all proc dj

[split sentinel]

yes

[light kayak]

what about ascension orbs

[split sentinel]

it does multishot asc orbs for large aoe but it doesnt stack damage

dual wielding covenmourn and vase i found to be pretty strong for raw dps but i didnt like the gameplay compared to oneiro

[plush stone]

covern + vase is what I settled on, also liked trident ball

[split sentinel]

tridentball felt a little clunky to me since there was already a lot of management in seraph movement and cooldowns so i figured something simpler would work better for me

crest/veils/pskin/lstorm/muranic/blunderbuss
skullcap/watcher's/moqqils/prim treads/bugle/oneiro + vase
these are the two sets that i use, both use beam 2 to help out with clear

[radiant isle]

Stormblessed portal core with scopophobia is what I have most success with but I think it'd be great with something a little faster

[plush stone]

I guess ya, from my pov I made this clear from the very beginning that I view the game this way but not everyone acutally read my prior statements (or maybe just forgot, which like fair).

[split sentinel]

For other devs it might be different but for me I go off feel and some other factors

like what my pace is, how much effort do i need to put in, and how my build influences it

particularly how the class demands the build to be

like what stats do i need, how badly do i need them, and what stats can i afford while doing this

its like an economy sort of is how i view it

[plush stone]

I look at this as well, for seraph (and clerc in general) its always bothered me with how hard it is to make a well rounded build. The class needs 2 damage types and sometimes attack speed/throw rate which makes it hard to add EHP into the build. Which always felt very painful to play with how quickly you can die.

in r3 everything I try just feels like its missing something which sucks. I ether miss damage or sustainability.

[split sentinel]

I think build limitations are also healthy and you shouldn't get everything you want

the missing stats should be something you supplement with gameplay

it just depends on whether the gap is too big

[tough vector]

it wasn't a big of a problem back when you could just luck out on boons
there was whole playstyle about using slower melee's to 1 bonk to death before

But now I struggle heavily to make a single valid build, they all just completely suck
Hell even some of builds I grabbed from other people just suck and they are aparently fine with it

[plush stone]

I mean sure that makes sense, but even still the EHP is really low even by r3 standards

it would be less of an issue if the class had more offense but I feel pressured into running as much damage as possible

[plush stone]

ya before you could over rely on boon to play with these greedy builds, but now you cannot really use them comfortably anymore. But theres also a lack of cleric items so like what else can you try.

[split sentinel]

in a group i was able to get away with maybe 110 melee ehp, and 140 others in a max pt blue

[tough vector]

split damage type pieces get a budget, that much I can say
But building anything acceptable becomes impossible, you either fully dedicate or become abomination that struggles to clear

This is the part where I show iridium crown as an example, not even a build, a fucking sole item explains the whole cleric's split damage type issue instantly.

[split sentinel]

iridium crown isnt all too different compared to something like fungal fury in stats

in the base role the item serves

[plush stone]

the r2 seraph build (same one mscr and everybody else is using) is acutally very good as far as armor is concerned, it has a good balance of everything (has damage, competitent EHP, even some walk speed). Its largely r3 not having enough items for cleric I feel (including melee cleric).

that said I do think the r2 seraph build is just better when you switch the class to paladin too lol

[reef oak]

is it paladian

and not paladin

[split sentinel]

All of it seems roughly correct

granted iridium crown probably isn't using the melee damage stat on it for much

[tough vector]

I miss previous Wolf's Rosary
would love to see it return as a new item in near future
it was perfect tankier item for Cleric, especially a melee seraph

[plush stone]

ya thats the issue the item has, its never using all 3 types of damage, only 2 at a time so budget goes to waste. It would be a lot better if it was just 9 agil with only 2 types.

[tough vector]

did you know I tried to play jack of all trades seraph?
did you know I either had to live with 90 ehp or give up?

[slate arch]

that would probably require a nerf to every class in r3 ngl

[woeful elm]

my chronology legion carapace spectral riftborn delve vs my twisted chiv arcanic bloodthirsty infernal delve

nerf chrono!!!!

[slate arch]

im not even really aganist that even

[modern lark]

time to nerf everything 🫃

[tough vector]

I mean yea, literally every other class just ends encounters instantly

[split sentinel]

that's... unironically not off the table in our general discussion

[tough vector]

even other support specs can either just evaporate or be the filth that is DoT apoth

[split sentinel]

as a window into how i feel maybe, the pace of the game has far exceeded what I think is reasonable

and toning down is certainly necessary in some parts

[tough vector]

I agree with that, saw few other people say the same
but that means you'd need to shoot literally every other class

[radiant isle]

I will second that it'd be appreciated if feedback was more focused on Not 65 pts nadir speedruns as the spec just isn't built or balanced for that in the same way everything else is

[slate arch]

4 minute max pts nadirs and all that

[split sentinel]

jack of all trades i think might be outside the scope of reasonable building, since that's almost in the vein of trying to build melee alch or melee mage

then again ive never tried or bothered to

[tough vector]

Supports, by the very sake of their existance, NEED to be strong, NEED to provide something useful

So tell me, WHY would anyone go play weaker class that gets one extra heal skill, a useless follower and a skill that has no way to tell if you buffed a teammate, and even if you do it's meaningless with sheer buff count you get in r3

Instead of just going another damage class. Paladin is better Seraph.

[plush stone]

by lack of items, I mean that the items in question ether dont exist or have like 1 choice (like there is ONE chestplate and ONE boots for this kind, so like if the item does not fit then tough luck you just have to use it)

[light kayak]

jack of all trades is pretty stupid
seraph clearly isnt designed around melee and while you are free to go play it you cant expect it to be a balanced experience

[slate arch]

well yea thats main issue rn kinda

[tough vector]

every single game ever, showed that unless Supports are strong, noone will play them

[light kayak]

well same can be said for every class, no?

lol

[reef oak]

chain healing wave

[slate arch]

for a class all about healing i sure hope every teammate i play with doesnt have a certain item that would heal them for half hp instantly

[tough vector]

no, damage classes are inherintly prefered to play, anyone knows how to hit and kill mobs

but Supports require a lot of mind games and target priorities often

[split sentinel]

paladin also isn't able to have the utility of ranged aoe, or able to fly around large gaps and funnel mobs safely

[edgy path]

seraph has a huge dmg buff too wdym

[split sentinel]

nor can paladin give haste 2 and 30% damage to others by using your main ability

[slate arch]

mmm

[light kayak]

paladin very much has ranged aoe what

[split sentinel]

choir bells maybe to an extent but it's a specific location

[slate arch]

haste is flavor buff... i think

[light kayak]

caster paladin is pretty ranged

[slate arch]

if thats even a term

[light kayak]

not any less than seraph

[tough vector]

Lance yeets you 6+ blocks forward, and has 32 blocks range.
ranged aoe? HAVE YOU FORGOTTEN ABOUT TRIPLE SWAP HANDS?

[split sentinel]

consistent ranged aoe isn't something i count on r2 paladin to do

[tough vector]

neither will R2 seraph

25s cd skill vs 20s cd skill with 3 uses

[plush stone]

Not liking the state of the game is fair, but at the same time what else are we supposed to do to judge the class by? Lowering the difficulty for seraph is just being paterionizing towards it. For the speed thing I care less about that then I care about comfert and reliability though; if the class can keep up I wont knock it too hard for being slower then say shaman.

[split sentinel]

this is going to go nowhere if we're just trying to one up each other

[tough vector]

yea, I'm sorry but please try to understand my point

[split sentinel]

that's the thing, i feel like it's just not a point that stands

[slate arch]

it is very hard to judge spec by itself i think

where do you set the standarts

[tough vector]

While I definetly agree with Xernial that R3 should slow down
it would require HEAVY reworks to everything, CZ, Abilities, Charms, even Intruder
(sirius doesn't change he's a snooze fest)

[split sentinel]

i don't think the content needs to change

that's the exact opposite thing that should happen

[radiant isle]

Let's start with the fact that relation to other classes in 65 pts is not 1:1 with relation to other classes in more... normal settings

[slate arch]

its actually charms mostly that are different from r2

[woeful elm]

i think r3 power and fast clear is fun for me because i kind of get to mow down the "boring" normal mobs and get to engage with mobs that have more abilities and are very interesting
part of why i don't think i enjoy r2 after playing in r3 is that most of the mobs really are just super vanilla and then you also can't get through them fast

[slate arch]

enhances are not that impactful most of the time

[tough vector]

Seraph being first to set the predecent is something I am fine with.
BUt then I want to see others follow suit. not wait half a year to see berserk get shot, and watch as every other class that steps out of the line gets shot one by one, until over the top strong content remains while we hold pathetic sticks to fight back

[plush stone]

we dont really have many normal settings to look at sadly. Even when I look at some of those normal settings (like say intruder) seraph is at best average if not still underpowered.

[radiant isle]

A 22 pts const tower took me just 1 minute more to clear on seraph compared to paladin, but head into a 65 pts nadir and it's a larger difference

You cannot use 65 pts as a universal metric

[woeful elm]

i think 65pts is a good metric in the current state of the game because the scaling is the same as 25pts so it's not really a stats thing

[split sentinel]

just like how cleric struggles more in quelled convent than other classes

because there's more types you have to mark

[plush stone]

if we look at 22 vs 65 then now all of the sudden every class is good and we learn nothing though.

[woeful elm]

most of it is just the extra mods and how your class can deal with the mod specifically, not the scaling

[slate arch]

when we did hexfall duo (very good metric, i know) we picked pala over seraph even with equal dps and supposedly better support capabilities of seraph

[tough vector]

go away with hexfall as comparision

please.

[radiant isle]

you know this is a terrible metric so why are you bringing it up...

[woeful elm]

like the difference between your typical 25pts and your 25 pts + carapace 5 is if your class can do multihit

[slate arch]

its a situation where you pick a better support really

[edgy path]

you cant crit while you are flying.. if you are in duo you need both people to actually do something and not be flying for 20 seconds

[woeful elm]

or your typical 25pts and your 25pts + legion 5 is if your class has aoe

and so 65pts becomes a benchmark of the ability to deal with specific mods

[slate arch]

i dont know why try to balance everything only around 25~ pts dungeons and pois in r3 when region is focusing much more on bosses and strikes than previous two

like raid is ultimate support test what can i say

[split sentinel]

very sweeping statement when hexfall supports ignoring key aspects of the game

[slate arch]

im not saying that hexfall alone decides a better support

[edgy path]

its fine in both raids
strike meta is to lootrun then swap class in boss so idk how you balance that

[modern lark]

why bother balancing around hexfall when its just bis damage builds 🥀

[slate arch]

im just really struggling to find a situation where i would prefer seraph over pala in r3

[split sentinel]

monumenta is also not decidedly a competitive game so i don't think everything needs to be perfectly equal, of course large gaps are not good but i think tierlist balancing is not great

[reef oak]

or bis tank for clear

[slate arch]

I guess for normal coop gameplay there is a niche for ranged support and that would be the selling point over pala

[reef oak]

-# soothsayer

[plush stone]

you would still have to ignore the scout in the room even then

[modern lark]

main selling point is being different from paladin in terms of gameplay loop

[radiant isle]

I don't know how reasonable it'd be to take some support aspects away from paladin to not make it have 2/3rd of the same support capabilities

[slate arch]

we lock scout outside the room for this comparison

[radiant isle]

Like the shared DJ or boon healing or something could go to seraph's passive instead

[plush stone]

true we should just ban scout from boss fights so people can play seraph as the ranged supporty class instead

[slate arch]

allay still could use more support capabilities perhaps

more in line with buffing/debuffing

15% vuln on one target is pretty pathetic

[modern lark]

what if the vuln had a build up mechanic, the more it hits a target the more vuln it applies 👽

[radiant isle]

virtue will get some rethinking in the future I hope

for now the healing is getting a little mechanical buff

[plush stone]

I still like the idea of making seraph lean more into burst to differentiate it from paladin. Having strong burst potential lets seraph deal with the most dangerous encounters but its long downtime means it does not have the better sustained damage that paladin has in comparison

[slate arch]

i cant say i dont miss my 600x3 beam but i dont think thats idea of class anymore

[plush stone]

and like in future content there could be reasons to want a support class with burst capabilities, like maybe a boss is built around having strong mini bosses to help it and you want seraph to help kill those while also buffing the team a little

could also make seraph more reliable at its current powers, better flight mechanics, useful allay, maybe a bit better beam. It may struggle a bit to stand out but just upping the power at least makes it a viable option to use for fun and maybe useful someday.

[woeful elm]

seraph totemic :ooooo

[slate arch]

if the plan is to make combat slower overall then seraph by itself is probably fine

its more of a comparison to pala in terms of support

thats kinda questionable

[tough vector]

You sneaky...
You just explained intruder
Okay that was intentional wasn't it?
Nice one

Ah wait, right, pstrike

[plush stone]

ya thats fair since right now the best thing a support class can do is kill kill kill since dead mobs cannot hurt your team. The game going towards less of a kill or be killed meta makes having healing and damage buffs more valuable

[woeful elm]

seraph being like that in intruder would be cool

maybe some damage tradeoff for healing

im always taking chip from fire bow mobs and from the whole-arena beams criss cross beams

[plush stone]

like scout is a better support then seraph since it can also buff teammates damage but it also kills mobs very quickly too. Its a smaller damage buff but it makes up for it by being so much better at clearing; which is more important in most situations.

[slate arch]

a good buff for seraph would be to remove the ability to heal of a button press once per 5s

just saying

[plush stone]

could maybe just give seraph access to eagle eye, that might do the trick

[light kayak]

seraph can surely see more from up there than scout from down below

[reef oak]

heretic radar

[radiant isle]

Have you played group dungeons for example with a seraph in the party?

[mystic lantern]

iirc they only play solo

[plush stone]

for seraph is it has mostly solo yes. I cannot imagine wanting to pick a seraph over a scout as a teammate any day though

[slate arch]

shrug

[plush stone]

I did like some casual content with multiplayer seraph (like world boss, hunt boss) it was like, fine I guess but didnt blow me away

[slate arch]

maybe i want buffs over someone else clearing the mobs theoretically

[reef oak]

i was playing hexbreaker solo in r2 a lot but in cyan challenge i found that being full support soothsayer was much better since deaths of all members were much rarer

[slate arch]

feel as a main character or smth

[rose atlas]

Are the buffs worth loosing another clearer?

[slate arch]

thats the question really

[plush stone]

they arent which is part of the problem with support in this game. Its why support has to be competent at clearing too.

[slate arch]

are you losing another clearer is also a question

maybe seraph clears fine enough

[rose atlas]

Just make ascension have 30% resistance in air

Jk but like I’m not sure if it is worth

[plush stone]

like a good comparison is DD dawnbringer vs CZ dawnbringer, the former is not a viable class but the latter has clear (in both acutal mob clear and support that speeds clear) which makes it play able. Its the same class the difference is just power and environment

[slate arch]

maybe im too far removed from normal cooperative play at this point

[woeful elm]

i appreciated seraph healing when i was like playing in a 25pt indigo

[plush stone]

a lot needs to be done for support to feel good having then just having a walking nuclear bomb as a teammate is what i'm saying here

[rose atlas]

Paladin soothsayer can heal you

[slate arch]

give seraph sundrops fr

[woeful elm]

and also a 70pt 8 player starbound sanct

the seraph was very far away

but saved me from shadestepper

and vanguard

[rose atlas]

So you like seraph for the long range healing?

[woeful elm]

i like being healed

[rose atlas]

Just get a personal pocket soothsayer

[plush stone]

tbf seraphs healing is more useful then what it does offensively, its not a useless teammate its just not a particularly great choice.

part of the reason why is just that other classes can heal too (cough cough paladin)

[slate arch]

i dont feel like there is content (in r3 atleast) where i would really want a support rn

[rose atlas]

Hexfall

[slate arch]

like yes sure it is nice to be healed

[modern lark]

let virtue apply cooldown recharge speed on allies and world hunger is solved

[slate arch]

buffs sometimes are noticeable

[rose atlas]

That’ll be interesting, instead of a turret that’s just shoots stuff and die you make it a cdr bar that you can drain for extra cdr

[viscid tapir]

Man.

[slate arch]

but i can do just fine without, my pickaxe heals me for 1.5 hearts, every elite kill heals me for 10%+ hp, i got instaheal in hotbar and life drain/prismatic/whatever sort of sustain the class has

[woeful elm]

maybe i should play with pi in normal play

kinda drains fast tho

[reef oak]

usurper is hands down best sustain infusion

[rose atlas]

Just don’t get hit

[elder spade]

what if you got 2 virtues it would be pretty cool

[rose atlas]

Dev already said it’ll be a nightmare to code

[plush stone]

ya seraphs arguable best strength healing, is devalued with how wide spread it is in the game.

[modern lark]

reading this makes me wonder if people are just trying to play the most optimal way possible everything in this game

[elder spade]

tragedy...

[reef oak]

idk i have ii in every build and i use like 7 in the whole day if im bad

[rose atlas]

Yes everything needs to one shot enemy’s heal players to full hp and give haste 3 buffs

[prisma idol]

support just doesn't easily mesh with TM's goal of content being soloable if not explicity team content. Exacebrated in r3 because brute force via incoming threats is diminished by player power spiking

[viscid tapir]

if anything it would be functionally the same as having one virtue with two targets given that the cooldown works the way it does

[rose atlas]

Has anyone tried seraph in hexfall?

[radiant isle]

How do you expect me to take your feedback as authentic if you have not even played it
I have no reason to believe any of what you're saying on seraph's support capabilities, I can't use this for anything

[plush stone]

I guess I did say I'd rather have the meta class over seraph. I would also rather have most other classes too though. I wont like be upset if I see a another person playing seraph on my team, I don't really care enough to police class choice of other players in game.

[reef oak]

its the dps

[slate arch]

true, pace of the game is simply too fast for supports to matter a lot

[reef oak]

for magic

[woeful elm]

i think this is not true

[slate arch]

seraph is hexfall meta, which says absolutely nothing because only reason it is, is because alch has higher vuln than pala

[rose atlas]

Interesting, is it a bow dps or bis melee?

[woeful elm]

otherwise more people would play hexbreaker

[slate arch]

melee

[reef oak]

hf dps seraph

[rose atlas]

So ascension is not used

[modern lark]

spec so good that it makes it too boring so people fall a sleep and it becomes unoptimal 👽

[slate arch]

its used when downtime to buff and get off it

[graceful gale]

you ascension to buff then get out of it

[reef oak]

ascension 1 for when you cant melee aka inner leave attack in voodoo

[rose atlas]

Just nerf and break some shaman abilities

[modern lark]

shaman is just a balance nightmare

[slate arch]

shaman is a mistake really

[reef oak]

dshot was killed

[rose atlas]

Insane

[plush stone]

sure I can go play some high pts in multiplayer some time too. I was willing to talk in the first place though since I was most concerned with the classes solo performance since thats how I (and most people) play the game most of the time and that was still authentic.

[rose atlas]

I’m expecting mobs being able to break totem in the next changelog

[plush stone]

For the record I did do like bounties with seraph too in multiplier (so 22 points 3 players), I did not really feel like I was doing anything special there

[slate arch]

actually do people really play coop still

i see zero dungeons in lfg

[rose atlas]

Tbh most delve dungeons I do is usually with guild mates

[reef oak]

consider shatter 3 your gear now

[modern lark]

dungeons give most loot for solo players

[rose atlas]

[modern lark]

[slate arch]

encouraging playing solo even more

its not a team game anymore is it

[modern lark]

also like, lfging people takes time

where as I could just do solo without waiting

[rose atlas]

Hexfall lfg is nightmare fuel

[woeful elm]

hexfall lfgs are good brah

[edgy path]

ummm

[solar sonnet]

erm

[slate arch]

hexfall ironically is more lfgable than any dungeon

[woeful elm]

all my lfg are like <= 5 attempts

[slate arch]

and sskt

[woeful elm]

except for like one

[slate arch]

maybe if we had more actually hard coop clear type content support would shine more

[rose atlas]

I spent 6 hrs doing a hexfall run just for a noobie to give up

[edgy path]

6??

[slate arch]

actually hard and not selfinflicted type hard

[rose atlas]

Yes 6hrs

[modern lark]

if only we could bring seraph to zenith 🫃

[slate arch]

zenith is simply spawnerrush while aoe of choice clears the room

[edgy path]

yea perma haste 2 clear pls

[slate arch]

kill twisteds

kill threatening elites

[rose atlas]

So what are we discussing rn

[slate arch]

actually now that i think about it cz is most teamplay monumenta sees now

[rose atlas]

Cz rush = profit

[slate arch]

im yapping around the topic idk

[woeful elm]

i think we need more interesting mobs yeah

i think theres too much work on class balance proportional to mobwork

[rose atlas]

Another 20 scout nerfs are needed

[modern lark]

maybe the real way to balance the game is to make all encounters as obnoxious and hard as possible

[woeful elm]

push for delve rework, r2 poi delving, some more r2 mob reworks maybe

[plush stone]

its kinda both at the same time, mobs are designed to be weak and swarm you and classes are designed to kill fast.

[woeful elm]

more content generally

[rose atlas]

Give us the green wool dungeon

[woeful elm]

yeah i dont think it should be like that

[plush stone]

Like most attacks in the game come out on frame 1, the classes physically attack fast. Like mage can use its whole combo in under a second.

[rose atlas]

What my thoughts are is why are the player buffs in a long cd ability

[plush stone]

only thing is like, changing this means changing the whole game.

man all feed back threads just devolve into "rebalance the whole game lmao"

[woeful elm]

not really

i feel like you can just do some more mob redesign work

and new mobs

[rose atlas]

So what are the confirmed changes that’ll be happening apart from virtue

[modern lark]

well, its just the truth tbh

[rose atlas]

Remove charms

[wintry canyon]

Charms after giving you the power of God

[modern lark]

god left us long time ago

[rose atlas]

Charms after giving you the power to throw a razor extremely fast

[woeful elm]

like make more hard mobs in future

even the intruder elitea are fun

[rose atlas]

I want people begging for a support in the next content

[wintry canyon]

The indigo elite already has 500 hp what more do you want

[radiant isle]

DJ is getting a change to its healing mechanic to address some issues it has now

[wintry canyon]

[modern lark]

this will just devolve to "kill or be killed"

[woeful elm]

not hp vro

[radiant isle]

mostly minor stuff besides that really

[woeful elm]

moveset

[rose atlas]

Is that a issue

[radiant isle]

expect to die less I suppose

[plush stone]

HP is like the issue though since mobs being frail has lead to the balancing of all mobs trying to 2 shot the player to be threatening

[modern lark]

thats like what r3 is right now, I personally don't mind it

[plush stone]

the game is fast because the mobs are frail above all else

[rose atlas]

Why not just make everything harder to the point where we need seraph support

[prisma idol]

kill or be killed

[rose atlas]

[woeful elm]

i kinda like the tension

[prisma idol]

half of what its meant was always "kill the shit before it does its move"

[woeful elm]

what draws me to the cool elites ig

[rose atlas]

Assassin gameplay

[woeful elm]

i guess i only care about the be killed part

[rose atlas]

😭

[woeful elm]

like i love lunacrest captain

[modern lark]

one of the design pillars of monumenta is that we want to make the game playable for solo players too

[woeful elm]

and i love bee elite

[rose atlas]

I want them exploded

[slate arch]

why not make a specific piece of content where you really would want support instead

[woeful elm]

poison swamp

[rose atlas]

Aurora strike

[slate arch]

its not really nice where you need a support to function in a 12pt poi either

[unborn lintel]

Malignant Neuron(rework)
Keeper’s Virtue Touch of Radiance +200% cooldown reduction rate
-50% duration

[split sentinel]

the end goal should be that the game is moderately difficult without a support but it becomes easier in a different way to having another clearer

[woeful elm]

i think the most impactful support i’ve personally felt was release earthen wrath

when i had no clue how bee worked

and didnt know what was splashing purple meteors

[slate arch]

maybe theres also the situation where all content is intended for mw1-3 and delve scaling maybe goes up to mw4 uninfused, but people are all just minmaxed fully infused and dont have anything to run other than same delves

[slate arch]

I want to tank atleast ten hits without flinching.

[rose atlas]

So we have concluded to nothing

[slate arch]

yea basically seraph is fine mostly except for allay and paladin kinda having same support, rework whole game please thanks

thats the tldr

[rose atlas]

The game is the issue not seraph

[split sentinel]

yeah

thats honestly what it is

[plush stone]

every feed back thread just ends this way

"the problem is the game"

[edgy path]

also the haste is probably being undervalued because nobody is going to build for haste 2 that doesn't have 100% uptime

[slate arch]

making the game slower also gonna make lootrunning galore

as for allay it can get like root or smth when damaging enemy idk

[rose atlas]

Personally I don’t like the idea of the main support buffs being on ascension

[slate arch]

or silence

[edgy path]

the hunting companion

[slate arch]

the hunting companion indeed

[woeful elm]

its not the game

[rose atlas]

It’s the players

[woeful elm]

its future direction of mob design i think

which is partially the game

but its not like

The whole game

[rose atlas]

I think we can all conclude for scout nerf

[slate arch]

i dont need to interact with yall mob design if i can simply break the spawner or loot the chest while i use some form of aoe abil off cd for mob kills if needed

[wintry canyon]

Pinata modifier yall

[slate arch]

i think its reaper turn to get nerfed

[woeful elm]

but what if all mobs are torms

[prisma idol]

this dark soul enemy moveset agenda is kinda crazy

[rose atlas]

Is this the main reason why we cant have overpowered supports?

[modern lark]

no..?

[rose atlas]

[woeful elm]

..?

[rose atlas]

i typed that wrong

anws idk what else to say

[woeful elm]

i just …? whenever somebody else does …?

[slate arch]

"beating elden ring but every mob is malenia"

[short jasper]

I love virtue blocking my bow shots

Boon spreading splash potions is the best part of cleric ngl

Not that the heal is bad it’s good obviously

[amber sequoia]

undertale but every mobs are sans

[rose atlas]

nerf virtue it stacks reflexes

[faint hill]

LMAO

Reflexes stack comeback

[faint hill]

im curious what are the plans to make virtue more viable as an attacking skill

so far every person i think said its attack mode is underwhelming

[radiant isle]

current plan is to figure out a plan

[faint hill]

best plan

my totally oriignal and balanced idea is to make a virtue follow a player (you included in the list of possible targets) and make it attack whatever you attack in a small AOE with vuln applying

kinda like e-spirits but consistent

and if it follows someone else it procs on their attacks

if its melee it has more damage and radius, if its ranged its ranged and pierces like fire spirit

[faint hill]

goddamn seraph in r2 is enjoyable

and feels strong too (at least in a 12pt pink)

i dont even have muranic urn and im using silverthread raiment and it feels strong

[tough vector]

it could genuenly just apply vuln around itself similiar to how it gives players around itself speed in passive mode

15% is nothing and literally any other class will overwrite it anyway, so might as well

[faint hill]

That feels boring

And kinda clunky too as it either had a huge radius or is hard to apply due to the virtue following you with a delay

If you could make it follow others and make it faster at base I could see that yeah

One fun fact is that I think a guardian seraph duo is the strongest possible combination in the game now

You can build glass on seraph due to guardian aggro tanking, guardian can utilise your virtue to become effectively immortal 100% of the time when combined with their absorption and your emergency beams and HoLs

They have high single target dps (especially with cbless and ascension buff,especially since they can utilise the haste 2 better than most classes), you can cover some AOE with ascension, HoL and illu or a piercing ranged weapon

It's literally a blender plus power cable combo

Might be like the best duo composition for max pts, where healing, damage and tankiness all matter

Another pro tip for aspiring seraph players: Creation is goated now. It stuns in an AOE during ascension, boasts extremely high base damage with no falloff like PB weapons (useful for when you are flying in the air behind your team or kiting and at lvl 2 ascension even has higher radius.

It's weakness of no piercing during ascension downtime can be made up for using illu, beam and HoL

Definitely not the only option (ascension has opened doors for many playstyles, often depending on personal preference) but definitely something worth considering, especially if you have a focus on supporting a team, for which both stun and higher radius are good.

Oh and attack mode virtue isn't actually useless

Sure it doesn't do much

But it's helpful if you miss a threshold by like 20 dmg on a mob. You can just run away from it and the virtue will finish it off in like 2 seconds

[light kayak]

idk what exactly that duo is best for but certainly nowhere near best for clear because you just picked two of the slowest clearing specs and mashed them together

[light kayak]

not even close

i am willing to bet i'll clear faster solo on multiple playstyles than a duo of a guardian and seraph

the two have pretty solid synergy i'll give you that, but calling it the strongest duo in the game or anything even remotely close to that is a huuuuuuge stretch

[faint hill]

Best for consistency

It's extremely hard to make a mistake

[light kayak]

thats a very, very vague concept

[faint hill]

I will admit I didn't take clearing speed into account

[light kayak]

the most foolproof might be the right word

[faint hill]

Because I almost never think about it

[faint hill]

Yeah that's the word I was looking for

[light kayak]

but you can just as well be consistent at something that clears faster should you practice it a bit more

[faint hill]

Also best for synergy ig

That along with the aforementioned fool proofness was most of my reason for calling it the best duo in the game

[light kayak]

well i would argue the best synergy is cleric cdr with classes that were not really meant to have that cdr

with is a fairly long list atp

and guardian is not among them

you only benefit from healing and the dmg buff

[faint hill]

True enough

The most it does is increase your absorption uptime

Also in that statement a bit of my tank class bias was showing

I have a bias against running with glass builds because it feels like my healing is not used to its full potential/wasted on overheal

And sometimes I turn away for 0.5 seconds and they're just dead in that time lmao

[hollow thicket]

is it intended that Explosive Component raises buff to 33% instead of 40% (charm listed +10% ethereal ascension orb damage amplifier)?

[radiant isle]

Nope and I've fixed that now

[hollow thicket]

Tysm

[hollow thicket]

sorry for ping, will this be fixed for update this week?

[radiant isle]

yup, we're doing another mini balance update this week and there are a handful bug fixes in there too

[amber sequoia]

Melee seraph if there isn’t 1skill flying 1skill need proj weapon(is it still)

idk if only casting ascension with melee weapon cancel the flying and orb and give the buff to yourself

[radiant isle]

Hallowed beam is being changed so that you can remove the proj weapon only restriction in trigger customization

It was only restricted because it scaled off of projectile weapon damage but since that's no longer there it doesn't need a projectile weapon

Meraph will be real

[unique cradle]

Can't wait for the seraph Recoil Sword™

[amber sequoia]

sounds nice

[mystic lantern]

MELEE SERAPH IS REAL!!!

[amber sequoia]

Recoil throwing dagger 🗣️

[errant hound]

[hollow saddle]

doesn't really matter razzial is still the best

[rose atlas]

how many seraph changes?

[rose atlas]

ascension melee

[radiant isle]

not nearly as many as last week but it's something

there may be more healing changes later, will need more time to iterate on feedback, but seraph will likely not get many changes outside virtue

^ for the future, that is, there are more healing changes this update

[rose atlas]

thats good

[rose atlas]

sad, i liked the idea of ascension inf uptime but it would've been unbalanced like scout

nerf scsout

[radiant isle]

I think infinite ascension uptime would bring the death of seraph

uptime changes aren't out of the question entirely but I'm quite happy with it

[rose atlas]

a inf flight support sounds broken but fun

[radiant isle]

it's an ultimate and should stay that way I think

[rose atlas]

it is meant for that

its a fun ability like that

[rose atlas]

is there a possibility for ascension to float on water?

[radiant isle]

should be an easy change, just need to make sure it doesn't send you floating upwards while underwater

[rose atlas]

i've always wondered if ascension did float on water would it affect hexfall gameplay

seraph hexfall gameplay*

[radiant isle]

that should perhaps be considered

but it's a 12s duration and you could just loom anyways so probably not

[rose atlas]

thats true, can you crit while using ascension?

[radiant isle]

nope

[rose atlas]

sad

[short adder]

there's no benefit

if you're not on a platform hycenea will blow you up

you can already easily cross platforms with ascension dash

[amber sequoia]

yay dj change

We are so back

[short jasper]

melee seraph is back

[amber sequoia]

Is the DJ healing all 5% rn no matter you used DJ or not

[unique cradle]

Yes