rule on lootrunning mods

[vast blaze]

[upper root]

as in the effect it has on the gameplay that was originally built around spawners as focal points to somewhat have to conquer

[vast blaze]

what even is this statement

[jade onyx]

oh so you are worried about lootrun.

[shy horizon]

say a lr build is fast then shouldnt it be glassy and vice versa

[upper root]

shouldn't have made something that could be abused to lootrun...

[shy horizon]

reality is that you can have both

[tulip sky]

i mean you can't really prevent people from putting different pieces together
though for sure i think there is a bit of onus on gear makers making gear that is fast AND bulky

i dont think there should be pieces that do that

[leaden bridge]

Think they meant why design items that tailors toward lootrunning

[vast blaze]

this is about lootrunning mods... not lr?

[jade onyx]

agility now gives 3% speed per level instead of defense

[leaden bridge]

The thread became about lootrunning in general

I like it though its chisme

[tulip sky]

i think there were like four outcomes of the waypoint discussion and theres nothing new there anymore

[leaden bridge]

Nope !

[tulip sky]

i think this discussion of lootrunning has been pretty insightful

[shy horizon]

idk you ask them?? they legit are talking about how lr and dot clear is different when both are completely ignoring whatever is happening around

[vast blaze]

add anti lootrun to spawners, mobs, chests and boom 🐈

[upper root]

and its literally up to le devs theyve seen everything there is to say about waypoints

[shy horizon]

did you read the first sentence

[tulip sky]

.

[vast field]

I've seen enough, nerf inferno again

[shy horizon]

im not blind i am able to see the title

[tulip sky]

i think i dont have an opinion on passive clear vs lr being different

[mortal grail]

You can’t be deadass serious 😭

[upper root]

I think people may not be charitable in their interpretation of your message after your first one

unfortunate I guess

[vast blaze]

having build customization is the reason we have lr builds

[upper root]

its true I think

there has to be a build thats the best of "ehp + speed" in some way

[leaden bridge]

Question is should tanky pieces with speed exist

[shy horizon]

yea player optimized a set

now we are punishing optimization?

hn please not again

[upper root]

you see anyone talking about banning optimization?

[vast blaze]

what

[warped dome]

you literally suggested to ban lootrunning

[leaden bridge]

Something something lootrunning is optimization blah blah blah

[vast blaze]

alright so from what im seeing... is that your blaming build optimization for lootrunning?

[leaden bridge]

This is deja vu

HEY

[upper root]

Ive decided you are the funniest person to encounter in feedback threads

[warped dome]

whether you like the outcome of lootrunning or not it is literally the ultimate product of optimization

[tulip sky]

what i do have an opinion on is that this is the direction you can take to eliminate lr (if you want to) - if we find that passive clear = lr then passive clear can be eliminated, if passive clear != lr then success

[shy horizon]

is hsb comparison allowed here

i really need it

[tulip sky]

but optimization can still be conducted without the presence of lr

sure

go ahead

[upper root]

its going to happen again

[shy horizon]

ive seen zero (0) person complaining people go secret route and not fuck with mobs

why is going straight for the objective so bad for you

[vast blaze]

this entire channel is to discuss chest waypoints

[leaden bridge]

I chat in this thread like a vulture feasting on a long gone topic

[shy horizon]

yes and we released dlc #1 now let us discuss

pls

[vast blaze]

join wool

[leaden bridge]

[upper root]

what are we even saying? "bad for you" like what?
Could you please elaborate on this?

[leaden bridge]

Explode lootrunning, identify passive clear and explode those too then we all hold hands and walk together in the sunset with glee

[shy horizon]

and if you want an opinion on waypoints sure i have one
we ban esp for knowing what you should not, and waypoint does not do that

case closed

waypoints are knowledge and you are not punishing knowledge

yea you may argue that hey using waypoints from others is no effort

then go clear the prog skippers first??

[hard saffron]

just rename it to how do we stop loot running

🙂

[upper root]

rename it to "We should ban lootrunning because its bad for you"

[vast blaze]

lootrunning is impossible to stop?

[warped dome]

anti lr is just a bandaid to the issue that the objective of the game is breaking chests to get loot
people optimize for the objective so unless you go and rework the objective lootrunning is always going to be meta
lootrunning = optimized chest breaking (or spawner mining in the case of cz)

[vast blaze]

the entire meaning of lootrunning is just a optimized route for the best outcome

[upper root]

would you consider changing the objective to be banning lootrun? Just want to know where the chameleon stands on this

More for the entertainment tbh

[shy horizon]

clasisc ctm has three aspects spawners mobs loots
apparently for players with some sort of skill the first two may go live in eternal vigil together
and thats sadly the meta of monumenta rn

[vast blaze]

i wouldn't want to ban lootrunning, but make a way for lootrunning to be less optimal then clearing dungeons

[hard saffron]

ok how do we make loot running not worth it boom !

[shy horizon]

you cant change it unless you free the first two from vigil and let us introduce antilr!!

[vast blaze]

like breaaking spawners giving alot of loot at the end of a dungeon

[warped dome]

not the spawners again man

[shy horizon]

hn

[warped dome]

thats just chests but reskinned

[vast blaze]

what else is there you can do

[warped dome]

mob kills or something

[upper root]

you can't ban lootrun

[shy horizon]

then we are gonna enter a new debate of shall dot clear die

[upper root]

clicking something that exists in the game versus clicking on something that exists in the game

[shy horizon]

see, you cant kill lr

[upper root]

dot exists remember

[leaden bridge]

Yeah we cant do anything dot and slop clear exist

I think we throw the towel and call it quits

[vast blaze]

anyways rush strike

[warped dome]

so to you killing mobs doesnt count as engaging with the content either?

[vast blaze]

people have been talking about normal dungeon lr but look at rush cz

[upper root]

they are both clicking things

[warped dome]

so to you killing mobs doesnt count as engaging with the content either?

[mossy sigil]

destroy spawners

all spawners must die.

[upper root]

dot exists so yes :)

not a good enough solution to fix everything

[warped dome]

so theres no solution (for forite)

[shy horizon]

cz proved that reskinning chests apparently does not work

[upper root]

yep might as well throw in the towel

[vast blaze]

tbh i think of lr like a pacifist way of playing, instead of just killing enemy's you just steal all there loot and run away

[upper root]

there's a second option of allowing an iterative approach, but then everything you said in the last few hours would have to be reconsidered

[vast blaze]

like why kill them when you can cripple there wallet

[leaden bridge]

Monumenta sneaking update just dropped...

[warped dome]

yes id agree

[leaden bridge]

You sneak behind the Lunacrest Captain...

Rob their wallet...

[jade onyx]

assassin class if it was cool

[vast blaze]

killing = one time issues, bankrupting them = life issues for life

[tulip sky]

My thoughts summarized

• I don't think LR is bad in current form, but devs might want to align the content they design with how players optimize
• Primary content they design is mob spawn placement and layouts
• Primary objective of long-term endgame players is loot
• Therefore: align designed content and loot objective optimization by making mobs drop loot
• Counterargument: Passive clear is equally lacking in engagement with designed mobs and layouts as LR.
  • Rebuttal: Passive clear can be dealt with via iterative nerfs
• Counterargument: Players feel bad if the most time-wise optimized version of new mob drops system is slower than before
  • Rebuttal: This can also be dealt with iteratively, between removing spawners and somehow making sweaty active clear really fast

[shy horizon]

they get financial support every 7d

[vast blaze]

thats why we take every 7d

[upper root]

its amazing how many avenues open when you see how things go as you work to a solution

[vast blaze]

mob drops can actually help with this

[jade onyx]

[mossy sigil]

good route ending

[leaden bridge]

Dude Cz Boss literally will devour the planet we can't pacify that thing

[vast field]

You know framing lootrunning as pacifist stealing does give some interesting ways on how to make that gameplay more interactive and fun

[vast blaze]

mob killing running

[upper root]

perhaps

[mossy sigil]

you gain 10 stealth stacks when opening a chest

[shy horizon]

for steal to be lorewise can we remove self slowness on solo willow box 😭

[upper root]

I think there needs to be a chance of dying at least though

[vast blaze]

that's how i saw it anyway, i didn't think of devs thinking of avoiding content

[warped dome]

what are the new iterations? passive clear isnt a hypothetical outcome it is the current reality for all the already existing anti-lr systems

[vast blaze]

alright so instead of reworking loot system, make mob killing give ccs or some kind of cash

or adding anti-loot give more of a reason not to

[warped dome]

cz is the ultimate example

1. spawner requirement
2. mob kill requirment
3. twisted kill requirement
   and it plays nearly identically to lootrunning as people kill everything passively

[upper root]

I think they always nitpick because they are scared to cement their own idea to be subject to criticism

[mossy sigil]

add trapped rooms where u gotta kill all mobs to open the exit to escape

[leaden bridge]

Possibly because cz players are grossly overtuned

[tulip sky]

successive nerfs to passive clear to a threshold devs are satisfied with

[jade onyx]

mobs will rush to lock a chest if you make too much noise so you have to slowly sneak around

[vast blaze]

🔥

new mechanic stealth

[tulip sky]

i mean lowkey what i'm suggesting is also kind of an identity crisis for the server

[leaden bridge]

THINK OF THE EARTHSHAKERS

THE PURESHARD ADZES

[vast blaze]

so mechanics so fair,
Giving enemy's loot drops
adding a mechanic for mobs to lock chests

[mossy sigil]

bonus lootroom based on spawners killed!

[leaden bridge]

The CTM dream DIES

[tulip sky]

no

no spawner kill req

[mossy sigil]

but it bonus :<

[leaden bridge]

The... torch reducing spawn rate of spawners mechanic...

[upper root]

we should bring torches back

[tulip sky]

i agree with oracore there that there is no benefit you're using a similar tool

to break a block

[mossy sigil]

do torches not do anything?

[leaden bridge]

They reduce spawn rates of a spawner

[mossy sigil]

😮

[upper root]

to make them work, we stop sending blocks that are too dark to see to the client

[mossy sigil]

maybe i shall complete my tessaract puzzles to get the torch one...

[upper root]

now you'll really need a torch

no fullbright bypass

[mossy sigil]

🙁 i dont use fullbright already, i am suffering with radiance items...

[clever hedge]

add a delve mod where if you're in darkness you start freezing

[lofty aspen]

can torches like not take a hotbar slot tho

[vast blaze]

anws im waiting for lr bots like hypixel skyblock coming to monumenta

[clever hedge]

well
sounds like devs are not a fan of lootrunning right now so

[mortal grail]

Lr bots 😭

You know lootboosting isn’t allowed right ?

[leaden bridge]

DONT SAY THAT

Bunch of evil robots begin play monumentas

[mortal grail]

Someone is getting cooked

[hard saffron]

NOT WORTH IT* not now worth it 💀

[mortal grail]

The thing is how do you make lr not worth it but normal run worth it 💀

Like what

Mob have a chance to drop mat on death ?

[hard saffron]

mobs add loot or something yup who knows

[mortal grail]

🥀

[tulip sky]

thats what most of us kinda settled on

[vast blaze]

adding mob loot like currency's and even rares can give more reason not to lootrun, you can keep the current lr state and give player's more cash while doing dungeons

[hard saffron]

has any devs said what they think about this?

[vast blaze]

not that i've seen

[vast blaze]

@lofty cave any thoughts about this?

[frigid coyote]

How would this scale with chronology, elites/minibosses/bosses, different spawner times, possible macro farms…

[mortal grail]

Astral farm 🥀 🥀 🥀 🥀 🥀

[vast field]

It's a chain of thoughts really

• Mobs dropping loot would be cool considering they literally only drop soul threads generally (I can imagine marking certain mobs for this, though we'd need a system built to manage this)
• However the current loot tables contain a lot of filler items which would be weird to spill out of the mob
• Why do we have so many filler items anyways if it's going to be sorted or /pu filtered

[leaden bridge]

Me eating the steak from the Dead Zombies

(Im becoming a zombie)

[vast blaze]

i did not think that far ahead, but you could limit the amount of mods that can spill out loot per spawner

[mortal grail]

Just remember this shit used to exist

[crisp pivot]

We get to kill cocopad 😺

[leaden bridge]

For the plu-

?

[vast field]

Monumenta players gotta be locked up bro I think

[leaden bridge]

[mortal grail]

First time ?

[vast field]

No but this is new

[vast blaze]

what is?

[hard saffron]

funny bug

[vast field]

The astral farm screenshot

[mortal grail]

It is like 2-3 years ago atp

[vast field]

If it's a pinata it needs to spill out of the mob like a pinata and not get teleported somewhere

[leaden bridge]

I'd imagine some smelly QoL would do the autopicking since imagine mob dying over the lava or void

[vast field]

It would be pretty fun to have one day though

[leaden bridge]

I want a rare to fly out of a mob with a particle trail that'll make my brain happy

Monumenta AU is insane work though

Truly the pinnacle of feedback

[upper root]

uhh ARPGs have loot filters why cant we
Just copy paste

[vast blaze]

but, is this is a possible idea that could be used to help with the lr situation?

[upper root]

client? side? whats that? Im on everyones side

[vast blaze]

instead of breaking chests, just commit genocide in dungeons for cash

[frigid coyote]

I think that it’s potentially more abusable vro image a mob grinder in light gray or smth

[vast field]

It's interesting that monumenta doesn't actually have mythical rare items as chase items the same way mythics do for wynn I think since all epics come from traders

[leaden bridge]

Imagine we had to grind for boss drops instead of buying them with frags

😼

[frigid coyote]

Revenant slayer 🥀

[mortal grail]

The skyblock vibe spread….

[leaden bridge]

MMORPG singularity is it real?

[mortal grail]

And it should be expected before it’s too late

[vast blaze]

fix lr = becoming more like skyblock

[hard saffron]

just have the mobs only drop loot on only the first wave of mobs or like mobs have a lower droprate if its a new wave

[mortal grail]

[snow holly]

Bouquet:

[leaden bridge]

TENNA ! ! ! !

[upper root]

are these a good idea? maybe because ppl love them tbh

[frigid coyote]

The 7 human reaction images

[crisp pivot]

That’s kinda part of why I liked monumenta when I first started though

[tulip sky]

^

[vast field]

I imagine making 1 in 3-4 mobs (normalized to prevent mob count maximization) drop a bit of loot as well as lowering chest count + increasing loot per chest as well as making chests more interesting via rarity or types as well as adding more metaprogression to monumenta would help, yes

[crisp pivot]

No going 8x dry for a drop i need

[crystal canyon]

yeah the absence is what I love

everything is defined

its quite respectful to your time in that sense

[tulip sky]

i think its cool for build variety

[crisp pivot]

Cosmetic rngs would be nice though

[tulip sky]

and experiencing the game on new and different classes

[leaden bridge]

It's nice but I also wished rare items (NOT MYTHIC KIND OF RARE) co-existed as well

[crisp pivot]

Give me a 1/1k chance for skr parrot every time I do skr scroll

[jade onyx]

I think that the mobs dropping things like this would be good so that new players don't get cluttered inventories - gear still drops from chests but you would get more loot from killing mobs

[lofty aspen]

hexfall sapling

[leaden bridge]

Like truly an item that had a value associated with itself and not its components

[vast blaze]

add pet cats to monumenta

[leaden bridge]

I pluh'd...

[crystal canyon]

fun fact, nicknon and monarch considered doing this for R3 release, but chests felt horrible to open

[snow holly]

what if you did both

chests still have items but are less cluttered overall period

[leaden bridge]

sug closed Monarch deemed it impossible 🧎‍♂️‍➡️

[vast field]

I mean the past is a different country

[crystal canyon]

is it

we're built upon those foundations

[leaden bridge]

Not with monarchs words i fear

It echoes through the future really

[tulip sky]

felt horrible in what way

[frigid coyote]

Btw there is one more well definable benifit to chests: it’s not hard to tell how much money it’s possible to make every week

[crystal canyon]

game feel to open sucked

[frigid coyote]

Specifically for dungeons

[crystal canyon]

I think is what it was

[tulip sky]

was there anything specific on the game feel

[crystal canyon]

i am a secondary source right now so take with grains of salt

i dont know specifics

[leaden bridge]

Probably the visual clutter of loot

Which is why filler plays a good role

[crystal canyon]

yeah filler is visual appeal

otherwise it reduces down too much

[vast field]

The "extra gear-as-currency" system is just messy though I think

[vast blaze]

add dungeon strikes that is one live and is just normal dungeons but the loot is lessened at the end and there's a cd of a day

[vast field]

Not to mention the system doesn't even fully work until you get pcrys

[leaden bridge]

Why pcrys specifically

Oh right it gives more moolah

I forgot about that

[lofty aspen]

dragging shulkers of loot to the blacksmith

[crisp pivot]

Sug add peb option to replace armor in chests with raw currency

[crystal canyon]

its a natural extension of earlygame

it is messy but I dont think its bad

[vast field]

And built off of some crazy shenanigans with death system "players need extra gear sets" and all that

[crystal canyon]

like you'd lose character if chests just dropped money and not items

[crisp pivot]

I didn’t realise u could open shulkers in inventory at first so I manually ran from orin to forge repeatedly to sell my gear

[leaden bridge]

Perhaps crystallizer and its extension ruined the vibe of pawning extra gear to a merchant

[crystal canyon]

no thats just progression

[vast blaze]

what is this channel even about now, lr mod, lr to early game

[leaden bridge]

It's about the Universal Design of Monumenta

Truly what is Monumenta

[tulip sky]

^

[leaden bridge]

[crystal canyon]

replacement gear was maybe relevant way back when but its mostly just driven by Tiered item cycles and upgrades

[leaden bridge]

Wrong emote

[hard saffron]

its about making lr not worth it 👍

[leaden bridge]

[vast field]

That seems subjective I think

[frigid coyote]

Monumenta hollow knight graves

[leaden bridge]

Dude.

Be nice.

[tulip sky]

[vast blaze]

anyways what are we talking about now

[vast field]

I think you could replace it and skip the pcrys middleman

[leaden bridge]

Vibe based vs. game-ification

Who wins really

[frigid coyote]

I think, on an rpg level you would be right. On a monumenta as ctm level it’s maybe a bit taking from the game’s essence (whatever is left of that side of the ctm aspect anyway)

[vast field]

Honestly I think the system kind of hinders the expression of the CTM side tbh

Instead of dedicated rare items and rewards at certain points of progression you get several inventories' worth of tiered items

[crystal canyon]

I mean yeah. its subjective opinion but its part of the charm that drew me to monumenta

[frigid coyote]

Ok tldr add a thing for lootrunning mods to integrate into monumenta such that there is a white list and then backlist other mods that have unfair gameplay features

[vast field]

https://tenor.com/view/huh-dog-hug-dog-question-mark-dog-question-mark-gif-14144426802562365039

[upper root]

curious if this is similar to 1ar indigo chests

[frigid coyote]

Idk vro is there a way to prevent the waypoint mods or smth thats what this is about right

[vast field]

Yeah 1 ar indigo chests are kind of the worst thing for me currently

Like. what are we doing here anymore

[frigid coyote]

I’m trying to get Back On Track (geometry dash)

[crystal canyon]

I think in theory yes

[tulip sky]

i swear dungeon chests have crazy bad loot

[lofty aspen]

undelved dungeons do

[crystal canyon]

undelved yeah

[tulip sky]

i'm running nadir and i get 3 t3s 2 charms and dust of the herald

[lofty aspen]

on indigo release week everyon aws posting their 1 ar + 1t1 chests

[jade onyx]

sorry, should have played the content the game is balanced around (delves)

[frigid coyote]

Undelved indigo is actually trash and should of been changed week 2

[tulip sky]

i was playing blue and its like everything is zero loot

[upper root]

is there a reason why the rate is lower? is it because "there's more chests" or "there's a higher density of chests"?

[jade onyx]

current hardest r3 dungeon btw

[leaden bridge]

Possibly because there's no tier lower than ar?

[frigid coyote]

It’s certainly harder than forsaken manor bro

[vast field]

Even delved content can be pitiful sometimes too

[upper root]

8 treasure items to 1 ar

lets do it

[lofty aspen]

at least ur rolling for delve mats then

[leaden bridge]

Call it 'r'

[upper root]

we can have "full chests"

uar

uncompressed

[vast field]

1 bajllion chests

[frigid coyote]

I would suggest buffing loot to maybe 1 or 0.5 more tier of loot. Maybe something like a drask sigil that you can put toward summoning Sirius (instead of moolah), smth

[vast field]

What do you mean, 1 more tier of loot

[frigid coyote]

Hmm let me think sorry

I think I mean like, poi tier of loot increase? I’m not exactly sure how it works

Like tier from a 1 star poi to 2 star, or somewhere in between

[vast field]

The stars are unrelated to loot and I'm not really sure what this accomplishes besides just.... buffing loot in the game

[leaden bridge]

Padding the chest with more items with equal amount of value i think

[frigid coyote]

It’s tricky as in the end indigo delve will come after black

As delves are unlocked post monument

[vast field]

Wdym, padding though? It's just a buff?

Is this about indigo?

Ok enough about that I guess

[vast field]

If it were up to me, I think delves would be a lot more fleshed out, have some vertical depth to them, and give money directly instead of gear though

• the various ideas mentioned above too

[shy horizon]

iirc give money instead of gear in delves was once suggested by i forgor

but yeah that idea is a thing but not implemented yet

[leaden bridge]

What does vertical depth entail

[vast field]

Horizontal expansion would be like adding more delve mods, by vertical I mean adding some more progression to the system so it isn't insane bonkers for new players but also not boring and stagnant for old players

[leaden bridge]

Oh okay

I agree !

[solid oracle]

It'd be so peak to make a monumenta nemesis system based around the tormenteds

[frigid coyote]

Lawsuit

Rn it’s just
“tRanger…you fool…this is the Water Branch of Blue!! You cant keep up this time! Yahhahahaha!

[shadow junco]

not sure if i saw it suggested in here but to combat the lr and even the waypoints you could just do randomized but same # of chests per dungeon i think even 3 or 4 diffrent itterations would stop people from making subsets of waypoints for each version

[vast field]

This was kind of dissected the last time it came up but I think the issue with this is that it just widens the gap between waypointers and non-waypointers, and either it doesn’t accomplish much at all or it means players have to check 3-4x the locations for chests

[queen bridge]

this would just make it harder and as frozen said widen the gap between waypoints users and non-users

depending on the way chests would be randomized you either determine the variant and follow those waypoints or just check every single one if chest positions are completely random

[supple swift]

Whatever at this point just ban chest waypoints and only that
If anyone will have ever so visible high amount of nicely placed outlines/waypoints it'll be super visible
And people who got unfairly banned could just show their waypoints and proove that they didn't have chest waypoints
Everything that's banned on monu is BS to detect anyway

[mortal grail]

what about route recorder 🥀

[vast blaze]

this is off-topic but would chest lootrunning be a better way to discribe this?
#videos-and-streams message

[mortal grail]

https://tenor.com/view/never-cook-again-never-cook-cook-never-goku-gif-3962474524105307442

[proper galleon]

the difference in performance between someone with chest locations highlighted and someone who relies on memory to lr (achievable to a good degree even on ur 3rd or 4th clear) is honestly not so big as to require a rule to be set (if anything, i think good routing / good understanding of the dungeons layout would be more important), as most chests are more efficient to loot WITHOUT digging trough walls anyways, and i feel like most players know of most secret chests. Adding this rule feels like its just adding it for the sake of adding it, if a players wants to lootrun he still will lootrun even without chest cp, maybe at 99% efficiency instead of 100

[snow holly]

there are absolutely efficiencies to be made by digging and that's only by knowledge or routing

and more than you think

in fact usable even when non lootrunning like totem 4 in magenta

[proper galleon]

yes by knowledge and routing not by chest cp, if u rely on those ull smack into a bedrock wall more often than not

good knowledge should be rewarded if anything

Imo the issue to be looked at is, as others pointed out, the why people lootrun, and what can be done to reduce the gap between a lootrunner / optimally fast clearer and the average player, which probably deserves another thread

[supple swift]

rest in pieces old EC gameplay, you will not be missed (now please update EC to make it cooler and remove the garbage maze rooms)

[supple swift]

in ideal world, I'd see them not exist
But in the same ideal world LR isn't a thing
Besides what could TM even do about this? politely ask people to take down their videos with the route? or treaten with ban?

[snow holly]

incentivize not doing it
you'll never fully prevent it so do it the other way around it

[supple swift]

there's no real way to incentivize it without killing the entire way monumenta is played to begin with

running past mobs and spawners is pretty much the definition of optimalization, as twisted as it is, it skips 66% of Monumenta's gameplay focusing on one last aspect of gameplay, If there even is a way to deincitevize it would definetly kill the spirit of monumenta and it's CTM roots

Making loot chests get bonus for actually doing stuff around them is the only thing I could come up with, and again, even then, it just slightly decreases or delays lootruner's profits

But go on, think more, I'm sure someone else can come up with a better idea

[spare tundra]

Nima

[mortal grail]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1288104520370356276/1419348149738147860/attachment.gif

[jovial mulch]

the solution is clearly getting rid of chests entirely and making mobs directly drop loot

i'm only half joking tbh

[jovial mulch]

i remember this holy shit it was awful

[mortal grail]

🔥 o/ derailious

[jovial mulch]

anyway here’s my thoughts

players get loot bag they get to keep on them when in dungeons or whatever -> 1st mobs from each spawner have chance at dropping chests equal to what you’d see right now, elites basically guarantee that chance -> loot is automatically split among number of players in dungeon -> players open chests whenever they want

obviously you’d lose some of the charm of actual chest opening and looting. Maybe keep some around for rare chances or something… idk.

This is just my rough thoughts on something that would solve the problem (and it is rough)

[mortal grail]

👴 ' back in my days you can lootboost others dungeon '

'no effort just pure afk for 15mins '

[jovial mulch]

back in my day r2 snowball build was viable

[mortal grail]

💀 wait when

[jovial mulch]

2020

[mortal grail]

thats way too old for me

[humble fulcrum]

lets go ballcanist

also funny r2 build in r1 meta

and 2 coc meta

[jovial mulch]

https://youtu.be/ceHn-7T8WwI?si=E6x5RF5CuG-H7YIQ

here’s the unlisted video on it from too long ago if you want monumenta nostalgia

anyway regardless i really think lootrunning wont ever be “solved” unless chests are fundamentally completely changed

[mortal grail]

the first memory of my monumenta gameplay is uhh

full shattering in yellow ( like 4 times) and nearly getting beefed by the entire cn community

[humble fulcrum]

i dont think lr is a problem that needs solving

[jovial mulch]

i think it sorta is because it demotivates non-lootrunners

but obviously my solution is extremely radical as per usual with my takes

[humble fulcrum]

i still would prefer group dungeons over lootrunning any day

[jovial mulch]

true…

[storm gorge]

i'd prefer my dungeon /lfg consistently fills up

maybe i'll actually run dungeons then wawa

[mortal grail]

thats so me🗣️

[bronze oyster]

Some of those filler items arent easy to get otherwise making them slightly less filler, as a sidenote

Mostly only relevant because buying blocks from npcs is hella expensive and there isnt really a player market niche for it

Also i would like to point out an entirely different issue that i dont think has been addressed so far i think, but i only read maybe half the thread so maybe i missed it

There is a disproportionately high representation of lootrunners in the discord server because there is considerable overlap between the type of user dedicated enough to want to install extra mods and optimize their gameplay and the type of user who is dedicated enough to want to talk a lot about monumenta outside of monumenta

[old thunder]

I'm a bit confused on why people are arguing that lootrunning needs no changes while also agreeing that its the most effective way of making money

[bronze oyster]

A separate but related issue is that any newer player joining the discord looking to transition into that category of player is kind of soft railroaded into picking up lootrunning, I feel. Most people active in the discord are going to have a lot of expensive utility items and/or epic tier items as a consequence of how long theyve played, and new ppl are going to want those same items asap, and thus look for the best way to make money due to the cost involved.

[tawdry rain]

Hypixel skyblock crystal hollow chests

ported to monumenta

the true antilr solution

[wide charm]

i just dont understand how flowey mod chest cords are different from regular esp

[spice owl]

Esp: sees things that are there and only things that are there
Waypoints: sees things that could be there, could not be there, you just placed a dot on the map. There is no knowledge gained about the state of things.

Its a bit like looking at two tests that got every answer right and saying 'I dont understand why the one that cheated is different from the one that studied'

[jade onyx]

in practice they are not but the method of obtaining differs

[spice owl]

Its about the origin of the knowledge yes

[wide charm]

in my eyes both are cheated . one is just allowed by the teacher

[spice owl]

You think studying is cheating?

Uh

Ok I guess

If the teacher let's you bring in one page of notes and someone else is looking stuff up on Google its different even if they get the same answer

The origin of the knowledge matters.

[wide charm]

no i think a chest esp with the chests added beforehand and chests just being there is still esp

[spice owl]

See here

[wide charm]

like it is chest esp with 98% accuracy

[upper root]

There is 1 difference. Let's look at it step(em dash)by(em dash)step

With chest esp, you download the mod and can see chests through walls. However, if you dig to a chest in a suspicious manner you get banned.

With fma you download a mod and a file
and can see chests through walls. If you get banned, you can say you were using the legal version and can be unbanned.

[soft python]

Not even hypixel allows being able to see shit through walls

[spice owl]

What like are xaeros waypoints banned

[soft python]

No, specifically niche stuff like Secret helpers or whatever the hell skyblock has these days

[upper root]

What are like replay mod to look at stuff through walls banned?

[spice owl]

You can see xaeros waypoints through walls though, isnt that seeing things through walls?

[spare tundra]

nah hsb definitely allows some vile things nowadays

secret waypoints exist and they are legal

[wide charm]

didnt ppl get banned cause they were standing on rails in marina a year ago

[soft python]

You are totally ignoring the point of the question

[wide charm]

and now esp is allowed

[austere shuttle]

Except the people who use that excuse just... don't

Every chestesper says they are using fma, then it turns out they are just using it as a cover for actual cheating

[upper root]

There's always ppl trying to cover their tracks but do it badly

Airplane with bullet holes diagram

[wide charm]

but a more accurate exaple is mob aura and mob aura if you kill 1 of the mob beforehand

the studying part of the example would be just remembering chests and getting them

[upper root]

Anyways im saying fma users could at some point be suspicious because what's the actual difference between seeing chests through walls via cheats and seeing chests through walls "legit" "but also some waypoints were found with cheats too and those are still legal to use"

[bronze oyster]

what does fma stand for

[crystal canyon]

flowey monumenta addons

[spice owl]

Restricting fma stuff explicitly to waypoints you made yourself would be reasonable. Showing any knowledge of things you shouldn't have knowledge of would not be plausibly deniable, because you cannot claim the waypoints came from anyone but yourself.

The enforcement model for 'no using waypoints you didnt make' is identical to the enforcement model for anti-esp.

It has the same coverage, it doesnt introduce anything that is more 'unenforceable' than already exists.

And, notably, it makes enforcement of anti-esp easier

[snow holly]

blue bumky jumpscare

[crystal canyon]

I'm expecting we're gonna look at banning the fma/mme waypoint feature outright for lootrunning. Xaero's is likely where the gray area is going to exist for self made waypoints- With stuff like tov getting whitelisted in a sense

[spice owl]

To clarify

fma feature removed
make versions of fma with it disallowed, you must be on a new version if you use it
technically waypoints aren't disallowed, just specific mods
if someone makes a mod that waypoints like fma but isnt blacklisted it can be blacklisted then

Or am I misreading

[upper root]

Also I think white-listing coordinates/locations available from the wiki would be good too for xaeros in this scenario

[crystal canyon]

less about which mods, more about the "for lootrunning part"

[fossil grove]

okay honestly all im going to say is that banning chest waypoints as it exists in the latest version of flowey mod will be incredibly pointless because people will just migrate to using xaero waypoints, full stop

[crystal canyon]

I cant give specifics because we haven't moved the discussion to mods yet, 27 devs voted in favour of moving towards ban mass-chest-waypointing for the purposes of lootrunning like this in some capacity. will give more updates as the convo progresses

[spice owl]

This is consistent and enforceable.

I would encourage reading and understanding why I keep mentioning it

[leaden bridge]

Simply ban Xaeros on the basis that it grants an advantage over those who uses the maps in EC

[crystal canyon]

I mean yeah using xaero's for lootrun waypoints would also need to get hit

but there's no offense in waypointing say quest items or hidden chests you've found yourself

[fossil grove]

okay but there's precisely no way to verify if you found a chest yourself or not

if a friend tells you in vc that a chest exists at {location} and you mark it, is that bannable?

[crystal canyon]

I dont see why that would be bannable

[fossil grove]

the reality is that information is a continuum that isn't well orderded, so you can't even come up with some arbitrary cutoff, since you have no real way of evaluating if something is beyond that cutoff systematically

[crystal canyon]

in the weeds a lot of moderator discretion is going to be required

[spice owl]

If you mark it without having visited it, I would argue yeah, probably. Forcing you to go where you are waypointing before dropping it down seems fine.

[fossil grove]

okay how do you prove that

i can say "i ran this dungeon before and i got it that time"

[spice owl]

Coreprotect

You can actually tell if someone has looted a chest, or plausibly did

[fossil grove]

okay so we expect moderators to look at every piece of footage with chest waypoints and verify individually if they've visited every chest?

is that practical?

the standards you propose are practically unfalsifiable without unreasonable amounts of man hours methinks

[spice owl]

I think if there is a question about it because bro tunneled through walls to get there they could look closer

[upper root]

Does a lootrun video count as sharing waypoints?

[fossil grove]

breaking news: portal route videos are now bannable

[spice owl]

If someone follows the same path that is trivially provable no?

[bronze oyster]

My friend who is in VC and I’m streaming my gameplay to told me about this chest

[fossil grove]

nope banned

illegal

what a criminal smh

[bronze oyster]

I am actually an alt replaying monumenta for a 2nd time and already knew about this chest

I watched someone loot this chest in a video

[spice owl]

To be clear, this is just as enforceable as anti esp is now. Your statements would imply making esp illegal is also silly.

My rule makes enforcement of anti esp easier if anything since you cant just say 'waypoints', you need a patsy

[fossil grove]

anti esp is very enforceable

[spice owl]

Thats what im saying yes

[fossil grove]

chest waypoints are not

how are chest waypoints more enforceable? esp actually gives you more information while chest waypoints don't

[spice owl]

Having to find the chest yourself before having the waypoint is just as enforceable as anti esp is it not

[upper root]

Chest waypoints obtained via esp are legal atm

[spice owl]

^

[spice owl]

^^^^^

You remove any gray area about the origin of your knowledge

[fossil grove]

wait but this is silly

across all of the community the set of available chests is definitely known

i don't think there's a single hidden chest not known to at least one person in the community

[jovial mulch]

ehhhh i think this would be extremely hard to enforce

[spice owl]

If you got the chest location from someone, you would have to mention that someone when asked. You'd need a patsy.

[jovial mulch]

knowledge is incredibly wishy washy among players

[upper root]

So how would esp be enforceable, moreso than waypoints?

[spice owl]

It is as enforceable as anti esp is now.

[fossil grove]

i don't know if i can publically disclose this

[jovial mulch]

the moderators going on a 17 player manhunt to find who knew the location of chest-mcgee 472 located behind 3 walls and 14 traps in indigo

[upper root]

And i mentioned already that esp waypoints are legal

But im guessing you saw that

[jovial mulch]

this is why i think chests as loot doesnt work well in monumenta

[fossil grove]

i would argue that information about chests ultimately lacks "identity" - the same information regardless from ESP or because someone knows that chests exists are the identical piece of information

the epistemology doesn't matter, so to speak

[jovial mulch]

like i get it from a CTM perspective but loot dropping directly from mobs would probably be healthier

[leaden bridge]

Is the CTM dream dead?

[jovial mulch]

Yes i think

[crystal canyon]

maybe healthier objectively but the character is lost

I can't imagine removing chests entirely is feasible

[jovial mulch]

I’ve just come to the conclusion that Monumenta is no longer realistically a CTM in ways that aren’t just… homage

Monumenta is much more an MMO than a CTM

[fossil grove]

probably because it's fundamentally unsustainable to have a ctm server that people will play on for an extended period of time, like these two goals are very much contradictory in nature

[spice owl]

The server can track some record of specific rarely touched chests and when someone touched them. The first time someone touches a container is epistemologically valuable and can have tooling that gives you statistically useful information. But only if you can ensure that the player should be the source of their own knowledge.

[leaden bridge]

Region 3 has exemplified that a lot yeah

[jovial mulch]

Correct

[crystal canyon]

yes.. lets not push it further towards MMO than we already have..

[jovial mulch]

CTMs are fundamentally built to be one and done (mostly)

[crystal canyon]

some crazies among us still like it for it's CTM qualities

[jovial mulch]

I mean sure but i dont think mobs dropping loot would suddenly be the point where its not CTM enough

[upper root]

This along with your previous statement does imply a pretty solid way that esp'ers get caught without waypointers getting caught ngl. I've decided that esp and waypoints are not quite identical in effect now

[fossil grove]

Yes, the first contact is definitely epistemologically valuable, but then the solution is to punish only those who esp to get that information, not downstream consumers

[jovial mulch]

I digress though its not really something I imagine is feasible

[spice owl]

I am assuming you cannot legally use other people's waypoints here

Theres no downstream

[crystal canyon]

something something summation of many changes in the same vein as this until its no longer recognizable

[fossil grove]

i think it would be illegal to distribute waypoints obtained illegally

[crystal canyon]

but yeah we're offtopic

[spice owl]

Distributing waypoints in general, regardless of how they were obtained

[jovial mulch]

what would stop me from downloading waypoints and just.. copying them and changing the color and saying “they’re my waypoints I made them”

[fossil grove]

okay but what counts as that

[spice owl]

^

[fossil grove]

sending the file?

[jovial mulch]

eh…….

[spice owl]

Using other people's waypoints is more accurate.

And not sharing

[jovial mulch]

“I touched this chest first” is a… weak way I think of going about that

[spice owl]

If you can ensure the player must have been the only source of their knowledge you actually can act on it

In aggregate

[fossil grove]

okay the fact of the matter is that we have some way of finding espers, and if they are sufficiently silly, then the "downstream" can also be found and banned

[upper root]

This would also blanket ban, retroactively, disclosing chest locations right?

[fossil grove]

okay but what if i say "there is a chest at X, Y, Z" to my friend in vc

is that valid

can i share lootrun routes for portal

is that valid?

[upper root]

As in it would be necessary for your solution

[spice owl]

Yes, and you can tell in aggregate. A single instance of esp isnt dangerous, its only dangerous in the aggregate.

Concerning*

[fossil grove]

sorry can you elaborate on what you mean

[spice owl]

If bro hits 100% of every chest in every instance he goes to, first time, 'my friend told me' works for maybe the first two dozen secrets

[fossil grove]

sure

[spice owl]

As a very rough example, a single isolated instance of showing knowledge says nothing, a distribution graph with a noticeable bump on the end for 'percent chests found first run' leaves questions, and you can look closer. Who is going to be the "friend" that claims they knew already?

[jovial mulch]

I imagine that would probably lead to some players being genuinely concerned that opening a secret chest could lead to them getting accused of being an secret sharer

[spice owl]

"Yes, I showed him" requires putting yourself on the line

[jovial mulch]

I just don't think I like that solution based on the witchhunting mentality that will cause alone

[spice owl]

Wha

Literally just dont use waypoints you didnt make

[fossil grove]

are you seriously suggesting mods should track down information following some kind of DAG

like

this is very silly i think

teaching mods graph traversal algorithms ✍️ 🔥

[spice owl]

I think that, by creating a rule limiting where people can plausibly have sourced their knowledge from, you make enforcement easier via methods (like this you mention) that already would be possible, but are not reasonable to do because you can't prove a player had to be the origin of their knowledge.

[fossil grove]

wait we have methods
just say that if you get caught by esp catching mechanism even while using flowey mod you get banned anyway

[spice owl]

These enforcement methods I am mentioning, notably, already exist but cannot be used because the rules as stated give people plausible deniability

[fossil grove]

who cares

just reject the plausible deniability

[spice owl]

?

[fossil grove]

say "if you use a public waypoint set and get caught for esping, sucks to suck, you're banned"

i don't want to disclose too much about how we catch espers publicly so I'm not going to elaborate anymore than I have already

but i think we can simply reject the flowey mod excuse in a large proportion of cases

[spice owl]

I think we agree, if this is what you think should happen? Im trying to parse it but this sounds like what im requesting, but more 'use public waypoints at your own risk' than 'you cannot use waypoints you didnt make'

[fossil grove]

yeah

use at your own risk, cry about it if you get banned as a result

[spice owl]

I think being explicit about it being disallowed is better but like

That seems reasonable to me, because after you have seen a chest you have immunity to questions of the origin of knowledge from then on

[upper root]

Thats a terrible idea

Anything allowed in monucord has a implied "lack of unendorsement" from tm

I am strongly against the idea especially because it seems like it comes from an self-serving intention

[fossil grove]

i don't think disallowing is good because, again, info sharing is a continuum
For instance, we can order by how much I would subjectively consider to be "direct"

1. if I use a public waypoint set, is that allowed?
2. if i send my friend my waypoint files, is that allowed?
3. if my friend records a video, and i follow that, is that allowed?
4. if I screenshare my gameplay and my friend tells me where secrets are, is that allowed?
5. if my friend communicates to me that such and such secret exists, is that allowed?

So where do we draw the line? I provided some discrete examples, but it's reasonable to see how this could very much be a continuum, and although i've provided an ordering, it's non trivial to provide a consistent one that everyone can agree with and that is well ordered

[spice owl]

Its foss bro, he pays his time for users to gripe at him, the only interests he's serving are unappreciative users

[upper root]

Not every foss head is the same

Maybe im being uncharitable since bad takes can occur without an agenda

[bronze oyster]

i'm confused what's this about being self serving

[fossil grove]

i think you are being intentionally facetious and are completely failing to justify how it's a bad take

you can't just take that a priori and expect people to agree

brb i have to go walk somewhere

[upper root]

Waypoints have not been discouraged from being publically distributed

Thats why its a shit take

[spice owl]

What do you think this thread is about

[upper root]

My further commentary is probably, on further review, facetious because im mad about the take

[spice owl]

This thread is literally about whether waypoints being posted publicly should be discouraged what are you on about? Did you read the top level post?

[upper root]

I think you are the only proponent of this information sharing restriction

[spice owl]

Did....did you read the first post...

The thread topic...

[upper root]

I did so I think you are misunderstanding me

[spice owl]

This one

[upper root]

You are the only person suggesting a heuristic of sorts to track where people found their information

[spice owl]

?????

[spice owl]

What

Do you think this thread is about

[upper root]

Oh my fucking god

I think you are the one missing the context

[spice owl]

You are telling me what I think the thread is about, what do you think it is about

[upper root]

The guy with the take I didnt like has previously said that waypoint removal isnt a good solution

[spice owl]

What is the thread about

[upper root]

There's no point in telling you because you are completely ignoring context here

Oh by the way, your idea of infrastructure makes absolutely 0 sense

[fossil grove]

okay then we should say "hey, we should be discouraging this, right?"

[spice owl]

Yes, that's what the thread is about, thank you flowey

[upper root]

So you now think its a good idea? Okay then we are on the same page

[fossil grove]

?

i've always agreed that we should discourage sharing

[upper root]

I dont believe that to be the case but at least we reached a point of agreement now

[spice owl]

No no, im the only proponent for restricting sharing

[upper root]

Im talking about your system of nonsense to track people's first chest grab

Not common sense

[fossil grove]

im saying there are bounds on what can be reasonably be enforced, and it's non trivial to come up with a good definition of what can be considered sharing
that's my take
that's literally all my take is

[jovial mulch]

I mean people just have different opinions on what a potential solution for this would look like

Yeah I think we probably shouldn't lean into insults here

I think everyone discussing here genuinely wants what's best for the game and just has different views of how to get there

[upper root]

I think my insinuation of floweys motive was way off the mark so I apologize for that

It is, from further review, very disrespectful to assume a selfish agenda from a foss community mod

[spice owl]

I think its reasonable to draw the line as far away as at 'waypoints existing only for places you have been and marked there'. If someone is demonstrating knowledge they shouldnt have yet, you can just like. Ask. People who are cheating are generally not going to be the best at parallel construction. Setting the rule at waypoints and no further, and using human discretion if someone seems esp-y, seems reasonable (long run). Obviously its harder to enforce short term.

[fossil grove]

well

[spice owl]

Once someone has been somewhere, 'I tunneled where I had been' is reasonable

Allowing waypoints for places you have touched/been is identical to memory in terms of how it appears from the outside

Enforcing anything past that is an effort in futility

[fossil grove]

i have a somewhat specific response in mind but i think i should be directly talking to moderators

brb

[bronze oyster]

i am still confused why "having an agenda" was even brought up. If the goal was self-benefit, wouldn't the ideal case be that literally nothing is changed at all and everything stays as is, since currently FMA is benefiting the most from the current setup?

[fossil grove]

idk how i would even benefit

[bronze oyster]

i don't know either

[fossil grove]

i make like maybe pennies from mod downloads on modrinth
it's like i think negligible compared to a different mod i've written
etc

[spice owl]

Think of all the social credit you have in the bank and aren't spending

[fossil grove]

oh true

i forgot about that

well there are easier ways to farm social credit than maintaining a mod like fixing hard to fix bugs or implementing cool features

[jovial mulch]

I should make derailiousmod that unlocks the secret dungeon bigtm has been hiding from you all

[fossil grove]

true!

[finite temple]

@fossil grove hi flowey

[fossil grove]

hi jasmine

[finite temple]

:3

[soft python]

boo

[soft python]

Honestly the best solution that comes to mind is randomizing dungeon coordinates, or rotating the dungeon at random. That way people with experience know where chests are and waypoint/fma sloppers can suffer

Banning that fma module is only gonna make people still use it under wraps. And there'd be no way to find out if they are, similar to Tweakeroo.

[finite temple]

dungeon mechs in shambles

[soft python]

An anti measure after banning the module would be the most healthy moving forward

[finite temple]

all will be relative coordinates

[soft python]

Yeah that's the bad part

Some genius figure ts out 😭

[finite temple]

i think the idea is fun though

[soft python]

It seems viable if implemented, but how would one implement it

Ah yes my Indigo checkpoint teleporte- WHY AM I IN THE VOID

[finite temple]

its sadly far more than just that

[neon pivot]

I agree but would probably be quite a lot of work to implement

[finite temple]

there is a world where everything is made in relative coordinates but that world is a sad one too

[soft python]

Of course it is, I'm just giving a silly example

[bronze oyster]

ok so the issue with this is that there is in fact a waypoint mod for relative coordinates

[soft python]

Can we atomize all waypoint mods

How does that even work? It recognizes the structure or something?

[queen bridge]

from player probably

[ember grove]

dungeon secret guide from hsb does this

[bronze oyster]

it was designed for randomly generated mazes ala EC or shifting style yes

[ember grove]

it scans blocks you're looking at and figures out what room you're in

[soft python]

People will make anything to not play the game properly

[ember grove]

if you play a dungeon properly you are actively throwing

[queen bridge]

as for now random shifts in coordinates without rotation are very easy to account for

[soft python]

Bro I used to be #1 Archer XP when f6 released and we used to do secrets like normal 😭

Now you need 400 mods and 50 of those mods are ip loggers/rats

[ember grove]

when f6 released

[ember grove]

shrimple solution make every dungeon a random rotation

if you get lucky it's almost a multiple of 90 degrees

if you don't, curse of 40 degree dungeon

[queen bridge]

diagonal

[soft python]

40 degree stair

[supple swift]

you have only 4 rotations, really
But the sheer idea of moving them around is absolutely CRAZY and GENIUS

it does fuck up with wiki's cords, but that's like who cares we can just describe area's or add photos

[queen bridge]

and only would be a temporary solution really

[supple swift]

Ship this next update 🔫

[soft python]

Multiples of 90 is gonna have people make 4 waypoint files for each rotation cro

[ember grove]

@soft python blue

[fossil grove]

I mean this is possible just so this in plugin

[supple swift]

unless you start banning lootrunners I fail to see what else will be a permanent solution

[fossil grove]

Secret tech

[ember grove]

i meant a random number between 0 and 360 degrees and the dungeon is most playable when it's near a multiple of 90

[soft python]

Do you mean blue dungeon or am I blue thing

[ember grove]

you are blue

[soft python]

It not being a multiple of 90 is not feasible in Minecraft perhaps

[ember grove]

it is just use //rotate

disclaimer i am not being serious but //rotate does exist

[soft python]

//rotate vs stair 😩

[ember grove]

bring your firm

[timber hinge]

iirc server can just hide coordinates from f3 menu

so just do that for dungeon shards and problem solved (?)

[spare tundra]

when f6 released hsb was a sane game

peak dungeon times and arguably peak hsb times

then it devolved into... i dont even know how to describe it anymore

[tawdry rain]

wtb aether cell 4 location 🥀

[mossy sigil]

what if u made chests indestructablee

so u cant axe them

[queen bridge]

many non lootrunners axe chests

[neon pivot]

oh hell nah

I refuse to open chests

[mossy sigil]

am i the only chest opener 🙁

[queen bridge]

and it wouldnt stop lootrunning anyways

[mossy sigil]

its fun to peek inside

[neon pivot]

I'm not a lootrunner but opening chest is just so slow

[queen bridge]

no, i usually do unless my build conveniently has an axe

[mossy sigil]

i do wish i had an axe too, to break after looting

so i dont go back to it

[queen bridge]

people would just build more ehp/sustain. no one would benefit really

[lofty aspen]

or boee

[mossy sigil]

ive learnt a bit about builds on this thread tho

ive been going full dmg

perhaps more hp would have been smart...

or near full, for r1 at least

[bronze oyster]

Brown making u stop and open a chest every 20s:

[crystal canyon]

this unfortunately destroys legitimate uses, such as wiki coords for important items

[crystal canyon]

yes, but its still a step in the right direction. Same boat as Cave Mode / Entity Radar

[crisp pivot]

Can’t wait to start clearing dungeons again in 2027 and get banned for knowing a secret chest that I haven’t opened since 2024

I agree with charging something doesn’t need to be detectable to be disallowed

[warped dome]

studying is actual memorization its using a 1:1 copy of the answers vs chatgpt doing it for you

the "not-esp" waypoints in question

[hard saffron]

https://tenor.com/view/rotating-skull-gif-24524852

[snow holly]

routing mod >>>

its up to you to remember the exact locations

unless you use that WITH the chest xray

which

[spare tundra]

at that point the dungeon isnt even visible

[humble fulcrum]

fucking hsb stereotypes

[humble fulcrum]

waypoints as a whole being banned is bad i dont think i need to say why
people can share waypoints because information sharing should of course be allowed

how does that work then

also idk why everyone just agreed that lootrunning is evil and is a problem that needs to be solved in the first place

[warped dome]

im very neutral on lootrunning but i think anti-lr is awful so id rather lr go away entirely and there not be any janky bandaid restrictions in the game

[steady sluice]

ngl this ^. I can't really think of any negatives to the existence of lring outside of the overworld. it's pretty exclusively a later game activity so first playthroughs aren't affected, it has no significant economic downside for the average player (if anything it helps them), and truthfully optimizing my gameplay was the most fun part of monu for me. also i dont know if this is an uncommon take but playing the game normally isn't nearly rewarding enough

spending an afternoon to get 1/3 of a delve infusion for a single piece is pretty ridiculous

[paper tide]

(preface: I'm talking here in the circumstance that waypoint information sharing is banned, what need money was saying) all heuristic anti cheats have inherent error in them, but in this case it seems reasonable to say that it would be possible to do some sort of analysis on information of players' chest opening statistics in combination with other data points, and make a determination off of that for at least investigating their gameplay

I'm not a statistician so I don't know what exactly that would consist of

and ofc no way to know without having the data and trying it

but I just wanted to say that I don't think enforcement of it is as impossible as some may think

if MM started gathering data and then cross referencing that people afterwards caught for ESP, and including supplementary information, then you could actually determine the enforceability instead of just guessing at it

[ember grove]

gathering data and then cross referencing that
and who is going to do this

tm is volunteers man i aint doin allat

[paper tide]

passionate statisticians 🙏

[ember grove]

like i love this game too but that is too much work it is not worth it

[paper tide]

anti cheat work is a crazy amount of effort

so either way I think in reality the best solution is whatever takes the least effort by TM simply bcs nobody gets paid

[grave sentinel]

Alright, so I will get Great Explorer 20 to boost my chest rates and then be able to instantly collect all the contents of the chests I loot with a single right click!

[shy horizon]

remember that to collect on right clicking a chest you get slowed for 1.5s!

[grave sentinel]

Of course! I forgot: you need to make Minecraft more realistic, so you must stand near the chest for at least 10 seconds (not 1.5 seconds, contrary to popular belief) to successfully open up the chest and then take out each item

[shy horizon]

what about you need keys

antilr treasure score at its peak

[crystal canyon]

This style of play is not something we're comfortable with

[fossil grove]

Honestly if your problem is with seeing this why not get the mods to ban the footage

[clever hedge]

I’ll be honest that does not sound like a good solution
Banning footages because “devs don’t like it”

[paper tide]

its not unreasonable to enforce style rules in official MM discord

if that's not how they want their game portrayed in the main server, then what's the issue

[crystal canyon]

it'd still be happening.. I just wouldn't see it

[clever hedge]

I guess you can do that
But like it’s kind of blurry line and that has a history of people thinking there are inconsistent standards of what’s allowed and what’s not

[paper tide]

is that the case here

"don't post things that make it look like you have chest esp"

slippery slope fallacy ahhh

[solid oracle]

There's a myriad of mods that have been banned for less substantial reasons

Look at the banned mod list. "Gives a major advantage over vanilla" is a pretty obvious throughline there

Dunno. Giant green mesh boxes look ugly and reflect poorly on gameplay (and the server at large tbh). It makes sense to not want people's first impressions to be that

[humble fulcrum]

is it "we" or is it just you

and does lootrunning even need to be a problem

"it demotivates us" the dungeon is literally already built and everyone appreciates new dungeons

i dont see any demotivating to be done here

if the dungeon is already made

ive also done dungeons enough times so i dont really see a problem not wanting to play it normally again?

i think you just hating the idea that people are going to lootrun doesnt warrant deleting lootrunning

i would also like to know other devs opinions directly

[stark stag]

Too bad one of the reasons that has listed in original post is dev does not like it
We started the whole conversation based on it

[humble fulcrum]

and not from you as you claim

[leaden bridge]

Lootrunning and this image specifically are two seperate things

[crisp pivot]

I think the main argument is that lr is acceptable but waypoints aren’t

[leaden bridge]

I wouldn't mind banning chest highlighting in specific (and not xaero waypoints if you really want to argue 🙄) in the same sense as cave mode or entity radar

As Ian puts it best it green mesh boxes are hella ugly and does not reflect monumenta as a game well

& I would rather not see it in screenshots nor videos

[crystal canyon]

thanks for telling me how I should feel?

[crystal canyon]

I've said several times I'm not looking to remove loot running. its a consequence of optimization the current gameplay, and a fault in the design that optimization moves away from regular gameplay instead of proficiency in it

[crystal canyon]

This is what is likely going to occur, not "removing lootrunning"

[vast blaze]

The main difference i see is people either use it to just to run around and grab every chest, or people use it to either plan a better route or just to see chests better.

[vast blaze]

which poll is this from?

[crystal canyon]

An internal one

[shy horizon]

i recommend using #66ccff as the outline color, its cool light blue ;3

[vast blaze]

i screwed chest waypoints

damn

[shy horizon]

also may i ask if we are banning the public appearance of this feature or the usage of that feature?

i have to admit that the feature was a huge 👍 for me as it allowed me to make routes and made rushing delves much more efficient for me and my duo

[paper tide]

mfw the thing that shows you where all the chests are helps you find all the chests

[vast blaze]

So i created a video on lr, devs didn't like flowey, majour talk on it and i'll have to remove the video

if there is a ban from this mod

[jade onyx]

it was happening before that

it was just the tipping point that created a discussion

[vast blaze]

it was but the real reason why action is happening is because i made that

[jade onyx]

... sure, if you want

[vast blaze]

i dont know what the think right now

[paper tide]

i mean i don't think this is a very important distinction

[leaden bridge]

If it makes you sleep better at night Big TM has placed a one chargillion bucks bounty for your head

[vast blaze]

im getting executed whenever this goes through

[leaden bridge]

It's snoever.

⛄

[vast blaze]

[solid oracle]

yeah nobody is getting retroactively banned for using that

[shy horizon]

i used to full clear all spawners on 12pt because big level number looks cool but after using the waypoint i actually didnt miss many chests

(in fact it is missing some known hidden chests)

e.g. the one on a windmill in blue wind branch

[tulip sky]

no

[vast blaze]

[tulip sky]

[paper tide]

🧐

[vast blaze]

anyways could someone find my body whenever they ban flowey waypoints

[shy horizon]

i cant argue if the mod is used for quick learning or what but for me i only used it to plan routes that may or may not work

[leaden bridge]

I cant believe lootrunners are PROG SKIPPING the LEARNING part

[shy horizon]

real

[vast blaze]

insane

[shy horizon]

prog skipping is intruding monumenta

gg

[leaden bridge]

It's snoever.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1222108295582584832/1312727718898696233/1150249187326312508-1.gif

[mortal grail]

?

[jovial zealot]

chasm you’ll pretty much be fine

[vast blaze]

will i have to takedown the lr video and rechange the footage?

[vast blaze]

https://tenor.com/view/meow-meow-meow-aghhyyahhhd-gif-25918045

I saw that.

[paper tide]

prolly would have to at least take it down from here

[vast blaze]

[jovial zealot]

i doubt there will be retroactive bans

[vast blaze]

you cant ban flowey mod without any screenshot proof

[jovial zealot]

although you should at least note that the mods previously
enabling this aren’t really allowed anymore

[shy horizon]

so publicly showing goofy green boxes are bad now?

[vast blaze]

mods after seeing a green neon block:

[vast blaze]

for now nothing's changed

[shy horizon]

i mean if you only get nuked for showing it then its just cyber marijuana

everything fine

[paper tide]

yeh I'm gonna be honest without effort by developers and mod team, it's just a change in how things will be presented

[vast blaze]

they'll propably say something at the balance update

-added thinking to lr and hierophant and berserker rework

[humble fulcrum]

im saying it doesnt make sense from my perspective

[humble fulcrum]

then what even do you want

[vast blaze]

i cant believe this exists

[humble fulcrum]

what is the "described above"?

you keep mentioning that one screenshot

[crystal canyon]

this entire discussion has been about the mods specifically

[humble fulcrum]

what is the thing described above specifically

that is my question

[shy horizon]

i also do not understand why is it that bad

its not like the mod did lr for us

[crystal canyon]

its just chest ESP by downloading a file

[humble fulcrum]

its bad because devs dont like it i guess

[vast blaze]

this could be a number of things that could happen

[crisp pivot]

on the user end its identical to using chest esp except you cant get banned for it

[crystal canyon]

correct- because nothing has been finalized

[humble fulcrum]

god forbid people do stuff they want to do thats not dev intended

[shy horizon]

bad thing is you can never tell if we can call it visualizing

[leaden bridge]

YEAH?????

[shy horizon]

if one already knew all chests?

[leaden bridge]

You think they'll let me use SR AutoAttuner??????

[humble fulcrum]

...

[crystal canyon]

what are you even saying

[vast blaze]

chest esp but you use other people's memory's

[humble fulcrum]

can we not extend this to that

[humble fulcrum]

why is non dev intended gameplay bad if people want to do it

[leaden bridge]

You're making a silly statement I gotta call you out on that

[crystal canyon]

yeah what are you even

[fringe oar]

[humble fulcrum]

can you answer me

[crystal canyon]

Bro flyhacks are unintended

[vast blaze]

flyhacks = ranger

[humble fulcrum]

ok idk why i even need to specify this

but why is it bad if its within rules

[crystal canyon]

seeing every chest in the game for free is an unfair advantage

[shy horizon]

tm actually stands for tactical maneuver instead of team monumenta

[humble fulcrum]

and im arguing its not unfair

[shy horizon]

we win this

[crystal canyon]

and as cocopuff said above, media including the greenwaypoints leave a bad impression of the server

[shy horizon]

i opened every single one of them once why cant i mark them

[humble fulcrum]

then just ban posting of those?

[shy horizon]

its about public and private

[humble fulcrum]

you do know that lootroom sharing is allowed but the discussion isnt

[shy horizon]

it sounds like you are nuking fma

[leaden bridge]

That is whats likely going to happen I would imagine

[shy horizon]

based on this what about we remove skr coord list

[vast blaze]

wait what is this about, the public eye of monumenta or developers not wanting people to lr?

[humble fulcrum]

and i would say this has worked out well

[crystal canyon]

There are many components to it

you can't just point to 1

[leaden bridge]

Because its a super grey area as all it takes is one degree of seperation for it to be not unfair or whatever

[vast blaze]

ban memorizing dungeon, unfair advantage

[leaden bridge]

& if you disagree with me I will cover your message with a bunch of evil green boxes

[crystal canyon]

I'd still be legal but behind closed doors, which is just weird

[humble fulcrum]

lootroom sharing has been done this way

[crystal canyon]

yeah and that is weird

[humble fulcrum]

didnt create any problems

[vast blaze]

lr for chest waypointing is a open secret in a way

[crystal canyon]

I'd imagine its going to end up same vein as cave mode or entity radar

[humble fulcrum]

we dont know yet

[vast blaze]

the real thing thats going to happen if waypoints get banned is that people will need to remember and map out chests in another way

[humble fulcrum]

also what is stopping people from just waypointing every chest + does that also apply to key chests and objectives

[crystal canyon]

once again this is not about stopping lootrunning

[humble fulcrum]

and also it isnt even an unfair advantage if waypoints are explicitly in the allowed mods list

[vast blaze]

it isn't but what if people start making maps of dungeons where chests are?

[crystal canyon]

Dont see any problem with key chests or objectives

[vast blaze]

like if waypoints get banned, people are just going to label it in another way

[crystal canyon]

external media seem fine? not sure what you mean

[humble fulcrum]

what the line

if i tell ppl in vc for routing is that illegal

[vast blaze]

downloading dungeons to find every chests for example

[humble fulcrum]

if i send an in game <coords> and waypoint it is it illegal

[crystal canyon]

that's effectively impossible to define really

[crystal canyon]

world downloads are illegal to start

[humble fulcrum]

so im arguing if theres no clear definition it shouldnt be defined at all

[crystal canyon]

its gonna boil down to player & mod discretion

[humble fulcrum]

wonder how that will turn out

[vast blaze]

it is, but people will find a way to map out in another direction so hopefully its a good one

[humble fulcrum]

"this mod is online dont lootrun"

[shy horizon]

actually chat is this the answer we want
ban posting content showing it but ultimately allow the usage

[humble fulcrum]

"go appeal to this mod not that mod"

[crystal canyon]

ok you're just being silly

[shy horizon]

imma bring up another similar topic

[humble fulcrum]

the modrator team should have a shared opinion on disallowed behavior.

else it creates problems

[crystal canyon]

they. do.

[humble fulcrum]

is that really silly

[vast blaze]

every moderator is against waypointing?

[shy horizon]

i doubt no skr player who did find the button with xray rp

[crystal canyon]

trying to say they don't is silly yes

[humble fulcrum]

and mod discretion doesn't really sound like that?

[crystal canyon]

Mod team discretion?

would that be a more apt description

[humble fulcrum]

yes

[crystal canyon]

okay lets roll with that

[jade onyx]

why is esp bad if people want to do it

[crystal canyon]

I can't comment on the resolution to a discussion that hasn't happened yet

[jade onyx]

it's not like it changes my gameplay

[humble fulcrum]

for the

fucking

10th time

[jade onyx]

i don't mean downloading a waypoint file i mean actual esp

[humble fulcrum]

can you stay reasonable

im going to lose it

[jade onyx]

what do you mean? what's wrong with esp - it's just that the devs don't like it

right?

[humble fulcrum]

cheats are obviously another consideration

...

[jade onyx]

so how does this differ from a cheat

in practice

[shy horizon]

actually there is no way to detect esp so we might eventually have to let it go

[vast blaze]

waypoints are from marking chests down, esp is showing every single chest everywhere

[humble fulcrum]

one is allowed

one is not

[vast blaze]

there the same but different

[humble fulcrum]

simple as that

[jade onyx]

so, what's wrong with making chest waypoints not allowed?

[humble fulcrum]

thats what we are trying to argue

[crisp pivot]

this has soul though waypoints dont

[vast blaze]

people could start making other ways of chest tracking

[crystal canyon]

right, except for the giant list in spoiler chat of every single chest

[humble fulcrum]

the waypoints in question have like 20% of forum chests

[vast blaze]

so is it the mods problem of waypointing or is it the people who use the mod?

[humble fulcrum]

just stop sharing waypoints in public channel

if someone goes out of their way to get it from other sources they can lootrun

but it would stop posting screenshots and stuff, mentions of it and i think that would be better

[crystal canyon]

the "functionally same thing as ESP" happening behind closed doors instead of in the public does not make it any less unfair

it aleviates some concerns, such as public facing image and dev demotivation

[vast blaze]

so how do you fix this kind of issue then

[crystal canyon]

great question

[humble fulcrum]

functionally the same, fly hacking to end room or getting a completed dungeon instance add