rule on lootrunning mods

[jade onyx]

waypoints are fine
the problem is sharing them to people who didn't know the chests

you didn't do anything except click download; you put zero effort in and you're rewarded for not learning

this is an ai allegory actually

[mortal grail]

I mean you still need to learn the route (x

[shy horizon]

difficult to enforce so the rule is probably gonna turn decoration and thats not a good rule imo

[jade onyx]

how is it difficult to enforce!!

[shy horizon]

dm exists 🥀

[jade onyx]

you literally just delete anyone who shares waypoints in public that is the suggestion!!

[tulip sky]

level designers losing motivation is the problem to fix, waypoints being unfair modification of game and cheating is how you give a stronger moral position on it

[jade onyx]

this feedback post is about the suggestion 😭

[tulip sky]

because if its just developers losing motivations its not very morally strong

[shy horizon]

i kinda understand the waypoint part since i still can see shitters running ass route in m7 with secret waypoints and thought they are good

sorry i have to mention hsb but thats my honest feeling

[mortal grail]

🗣️ 🔥

[clever hedge]

I don’t agree with banning the sharing of loot running resources, I believe the fundamental solution to the problem is to solve it by redesigning the mechanisms so that optimized gameplay is still within acceptance of devs, it’ll take effort, but it is the fundamental solution in my opinion

And if the problem is really just the discouragement to the devs, devs should have the responsibility and right to rework the system to prevent it

[zinc igloo]

I mean like people dont play the server to loot run it. They loot run because its both easy and a practical way to farm money; but people only want to do that in the post game.

[mortal grail]

🥀 implement anti lootrun mechanic in all dungeon

[shy horizon]

yeah they dont lr on first clear

[zinc igloo]

they might not even lr on clear 50 too

[shy horizon]

thats why i thought its completely fine even if its shown to devs since people do have to play the content until a point they understand it enough to efficiently lr

but it varies from person to person so i cant really comment on this

as it does kill the experience once you decide to lr

[zinc igloo]

people do get to the point where they are rich enough to just not care about lr anymore and then they go back to clearing since it acutally fun

[mortal grail]

I mean some of my friend ask for waypoint just because they don’t want to skip chest in their normal clear ( I know it’s only like 20-30% of the flowey user but hey that count 🗣️🔥

[shy horizon]

you missed some chests too

[mortal grail]

I don’t do ex dungeon

🗣️ 🔥

[shy horizon]

its in blue

[mortal grail]

I don’t lootrun r3 dungeon

[shy horizon]

try harder bro

[mortal grail]

🗣️ 🔥

[shy horizon]

weak

[mortal grail]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1288104520370356276/1419348149738147860/attachment.gif

[shy horizon]

wadafak

[crystal canyon]

fundamental issues that drive lootrunning span all three regions and all forms of content- this is a massive ask. Assuming we can find a system everyone is happy with (lol lmao) implementation would take god knows how long.

In the mean time, I'm pointing the finger specifically at:
A. giant lists of chest waypoints being shared, and
B. screenshots / videos that are all chest waypoints

thats killing motivation

[mortal grail]

Delete silent boss and the video guide

[lofty cave]

and is also a large funnel of dev time 😭

[vast field]

Devil's advocate: making waypoint/lootrun content not publically sharable for the reason of not demotivating devs seems shallow, as if pretending it's not visible means it doesn't actually exist

[tulip sky]

^

[clever hedge]

Yeah this

[tulip sky]

stand on the strong moral ground which is that waypoint is unfair advantage

[crystal canyon]

im getting ragebaited

im not saying this is the fix

the fix is fixing the loot system

that is a massive ask

[mortal grail]

https://tenor.com/view/bait-cat-is-this-bait-cat-is-this-ragebait-gif-10902073105296387701

[crystal canyon]

I need sanity before that time comes

if that time comes

[vast field]

Devil's advocate is like productive ragebaiting you know

[shy horizon]

hey what if this

[lofty cave]

an impossible task

[upper root]

ban all waypoints... and you know what? ban everyone retroactively.

[zinc igloo]

wait here me out, what if the game just had built in waypoints for everybody problem solved

[jade onyx]

bespoke ragebait

[shy horizon]

make scaling a thing even when solo and reduce the window of time you have to kill things again

[jade onyx]

breaking a spawner highlights nearby chests

finally, a solution that changes nothing

[shy horizon]

spawners with blue ring effect protect chests

oh no it already exist in poi

[fossil grove]

no this is malware behavior

[zinc igloo]

mandatory astral in all delves, i've done it I've fixed loot running

[fossil grove]

the mod will be free software

[shy horizon]

is it possible to do a version check and disable features if outdated?

[upper root]

what if to cover all bases, the new version of the mod silently adds your name to list for a ban wave

[fossil grove]

no im very strictly against version checkers by default

[shy horizon]

sadly

[oblique trout]

[tawny marlin]

billions must rush for approved monumenta gameplay

[humble fulcrum]

devs getting discouraged from dr is not a reason to remove it what

no one lrs on the first clear

[stark stag]

🥀

[spice owl]

flowey with the 🔥✍️ views

principled foss development 🙏

[grave sentinel]

INB4...
You accumulate a charge (up to 10) every 10s. You may only break/open a chest when you have a charge. When you do so, you consume a charge

[crisp pivot]

make it not shareable because screenshots look ugly with chest esp

[grave sentinel]

On a serious note, I don't know how having waypoints + highlights (I don't use them) is any different than people just memorizing the location of chests and lootrun routes regarding developer motivation

Sure, waypoints and highlighting make lootrunning more obvious; however, if people can just memorize the location of chests anyway, people will lootrun

Perhaps less people will lootrun due to memorization requiring some more effort, but the general outcome is the same

[upper root]

and are we not deciding that there is a difference between engagement with the content and mastery, versus downloading a mod and a list?

[grave sentinel]

Downloading a mod and a list does not constitute the equivalent of mastery. This is seen in (obnoxious + extremely toxic content warning) ||HSB: just because you know where the secrets are in dungeons does not mean you will be fast at secret routes, a factor that is essential to determining how good of a dungeon player you are||

Essentially, just because you have some info on where everything is does not mean you can quickly navigate. Understanding dungeon mechanics, particular encounters, and the dungeon layout matters a lot when lootrunning

[upper root]

yep thats exactly how it is

[grave sentinel]

I think that this factor actually might make things interesting when designing dungeons/encounters. You can design particularly dangerous or hard-to-navigate areas that a lootrunner must be prepared for to master lootrunning the dungeon

[upper root]

I don't think anyone cares to cater to a lootrunner 😂

lets not go crazy

[grave sentinel]

I think if it is designed well, the encounter/dungeon might accomodate both a lootrunner and classic kill + loot playstyles

[upper root]

yeah sure that is a possible thing that could exist in this universe

[tulip sky]

memorization is harder

[upper root]

maybe modern aimbot is pretty close to having the skill to aim because its much more organic and akin to human aim

[upper root]

I don't think you are getting what we are saying

this isn't an anti-lr idea

[grave sentinel]

I get that. But, what I am trying to say is that LR waypoints do not create a significant impact that LRing in general has not already created

[upper root]

I don't see you arguing that, all I saw was further emphasis that waypoints are indeed not mastery/engagement

[tulip sky]

its not a problem that lootrunning exists

its a problem that waypoints make it unfairly easy

[upper root]

yeah it 100% provides an advantage over vanilla for entry level players

[tulip sky]

(the real problem i care more about is charging is sad when seeing screenshots of waypoints)

[grave sentinel]

I never really gave a clear thesis, so the ideas don't seem super coherent. For this, what I am trying to say is that the impact of lootrunning waypoints is not significant if the waypoints do not give the person the type of expertise that memorization and studying give. It just acts as a lower-effort but less rewarding opportunity. In the end, whether you use a waypoint or not, you already are not interacting with the content in the way the developers intend

(Also, if this continues to sound incoherent, perhaps it is me feeling drowsy after looking at a bunch of math notation)

[upper root]

some proponents of this idea might also think lootrunning is decroded (maybe me), but (maybe me) think that using a client modification is a extra step beyond the pale

[grave sentinel]

I get that. In general, I am not a fan of mods that give advantageous opportunities. I hate the puzzle solvers and secret waypoints in HSB's mods. However, I believe that this scenario is fine. The advantage from chest waypoints in Monumenta is unlikely to be felt so significantly when the use of the mod does not directly detract from others' experiences

[upper root]

I think its just an agree to disagree then, because I lean to "no" rather than "yes" when it comes to gameplay advantage mods that are in a gray area

[grave sentinel]

The issue with HSB mods is that new players and those who do not use such mods are bound to play with those who have such mods many times. When this happens, those without the mods often end up getting kicked/discriminated against due to not having the performance that a mod would give. (Now, you could memorize all the puzzle solutions and secret locations, but the amount of effort required on this part is unreasonable to the average player and usually only happens after a player has played a significant amount of dungeon runs)

[tawdry rain]

bit slightly off topic but uhh

please do not ban waypoints

like actual waypoints

i use them for dungeon keys/checkpoint locations

because i still havent memorised the aether cell locations 🥀

[grave sentinel]

"THOSE ARE IN CHESTS! BAN THIS PERSON RIGHT NOW!"

[tawdry rain]

🥀

also i think i have like 20 waypoints for teal

[grave sentinel]

Admitted to using waypoints for a dungeon chest...SMH

[tawdry rain]

2 checkpoint waypoints, 3 separators

and then 15 key waypoints

i only have fma for zenith rolls 🥀

[paper tide]

relating to the ESP discussion, why does monumenta not have something like xray protection?

is it too much of a lag issue?

actually nvm that would barely change anything

wouldn't impact esp'ers at all except making them harder to detect and them losing out on like 1% of chests per dungeon

[jovial zealot]

what is xray protection

[crystal canyon]

is the xray protection in the room with us

[paper tide]

sending different blocks for things behind walls

then updating it once player can see them

but not really applicable for most monumenta environments and would only hide hidden chests

which just removes data points

with no huge impact on loot

[shy horizon]

@honest sandal here

[crisp pivot]

not even that

[lament blaze]

sounds like a way to desrroy our proxies

if only a bit

idk we just never focused on anti cheat things i guess

[mortal grail]

🥀

Imagine using kill aura in a pve server

[soft python]

Add anti lootrun mechanics in private delves and crack down on classes used for lootrunning (Paladin & Ranger), randomize location coordinates of where delves spawn, etc

Lootrunning is honestly so sad and cringe, new players are running delves 2-3 times and then lootrunning them, which is so soulless. I personally think this ruins the coolness of dungeons while worsening the economy

I remember back in my days (👴) we used to run dungeons in groups with max points, leaderboard comps actually mattered, and everyone wasn't a billionaire. Now it's just some dude lootrunning the entire dungeon in 15 minutes while watching anime on the side which I personally believe kills the uniqueness of Monumenta

[humble fulcrum]

i mean not my problem infusions cost like 500 har and i cant grind all day

[small vortex]

I think minor chest randomness (think blue's earth eras having slightly different positions) and some trap randomness from a pool would be a big positive for replayability and making each run more important to actually pay attention and play the game, which would also come with the consequence of making lootrunning way harder. Imo lootrunning is only fine in strikes (ofc as long as the party knows what's happening) since they're explicitly designed to be replayable back to back with optimising (ie time leaderboards)

[soft python]

Infusions were meant to be long term goals, now people expect to be able to max infuse a set after a day or two of playing

[humble fulcrum]

i dont expect to infuse after a day or two

but i cant afford any sort of infusion in a reasonable amount of time if i had to fully clear every dungeon

while i agree its sad to see new players lootrun

it shouldnt just be completely deleted

making it less accessible is fine but the option should still be there

[soft python]

Making it less accessible is an awful bandaid

[clever hedge]

Yeah idk if it’s not intended it shouldn’t exist at all
Either it exists or it doesn’t
Making it gatekeep-able is bad I think

[tired ridge]

At least I meet more ppl want to learn lootruning than those who feel repulsive to it

btw if you don't like lr you can just ignore that

shouldn't be such a big case

[mortal grail]

https://tenor.com/view/camellya-camellya-wuwa-camellya-brainrot-wuwa-wuthering-waves-gif-1178415009242290734

[tawdry rain]

https://tenor.com/view/nikke-goddess-of-victory-nikke-boss-mirror-container-zlt-gif-17745377476774587847

[queen bridge]

uh oh

[young shadow]

silentboss feeling like oppenheimer rn

[vast blaze]

Did I make any developers upset for making that video?

[soft python]

Like 7 TM members 👎 'd that post so I wonder

[clever hedge]

It’s just the last straw I feel
The problem has been there

[humble fulcrum]

u know its bad when even lootrunners 👎 it

[mortal grail]

you mean the ojne in #suggestions-voting ?

[humble fulcrum]

the guide

[mortal grail]

the guide is so questionable

like in 90% of the aspect

i need to regain my breath when isee the png of reverie : easy and simple to lootrun

[tawdry rain]

"easy and simple"

[mortal grail]

if i have to rate a dungeon to lootrun

reverie will be at 2/10

when cyan is 3/10

yellow is 4-5

teal lime lg are 9

[paper tide]

how would this be added retroactively without a passive time commitment or throwing random cheats around or diminishing loot

[mortal grail]

like its the opposite of that 😭

[small vortex]

I don't know what that means tbh, it would take some time to set up the mechanics of randomness first of course, which is likely the hardest thing, but adding in the different positions should be fine if not a bit tedious sure. Idk what that has to do with diminishing loot though

[paper tide]

adding in random positions to a bunch of places where they weren't originally meant to be seems like it would lead to some out of place behavior

since to have any impact on loot running the variation would have to be significant

[frigid coyote]

Yeah I think that can probably be figured out by mods very easily and just makes it harder for players who run normally and expect chests to be certain places

[queen bridge]

shifting is the only dungeon thats impossible to waypoint practically rn

[paper tide]

the only way anything like that could make loot running way harder is if the variation literally like on the scale of rooms

[paper tide]

mods banned waypoint gen for procedural dungeons already as well

[queen bridge]

ye

[frigid coyote]

Lootrunning for me is only a problem in the case when I run into a poi and it’s lootran and I realize I have been wasting my time clearing. Idk how much of a problem this is now but it was a bit annoying when r1 narsen sea(?)* lootrunning because more popular

[queen bridge]

ow lr is practically non-existent rn, unless you count really fast spawner rush optimized clears

[frigid coyote]

I understand the point of issue extends from the fact that lr is generally the bis strat for smth when routing is made? + mods to help make it a bit more mindless.

It’s very hard to hardline stamp out gameplay behavior like this and not end up in some kind of arms race.

Therefore I think things that make lootrun more skillful and less mindless would be cool, but it’s very hard to design around that effectively without designing around it from the level design stage of production.

Although, I would argue chest waypoint mods border on xray, I’m not sure how they could really be dealt with though.

(I don’t believe in prohibition as an effective way of stopping a behavior)

[lofty cave]

no, definitely not at you directly
this is something that I've disliked for as long as I've heard about it - the video you made primarily just started public discussion on it, so of course me (and other devs) would begin to chip in our thoughts as well

[snow holly]

if anything it was good because it got people talking about it

[solid oracle]

saying you can't afford infusions without LR is crazy

it's like four runs maximum for a maxed out delve infusion

[supple swift]

I really don't like lootrunning existing and being as efficient as it is.
it's only really enforcable in overworld and even then I've been having rocks thrown at me since begining whenever I talk about it.

This is also a heavily gameplay impacting element that is just left on the side while it slowly snowballs and half the people either push the snowball or act oblivious to it.
While the argument of devs getting dis incentivised to build is something I understand a lot, it's also kinda...empty? Shallow?
Non the less I'm glad this toppic was brought up and has actual discussion, hopefuly within TM as well.

Though... there's no real actual solution to this, now is there?

• Add anti lootrun to instances?
  LR classes can kill mobs without issues, barely a slowdown, and anti LR is abyssmaly dogshit, crank it up to the on release version, THAT was something.
• Block public sharing of Waypoints?
  You just created Black Market, good job. Watch people try to sell waypoints for money, either IRL or in game currency.
• Randomized chests (as Tktom suggested)
  Honestly most feasible? ToV shows that devs have ability to randomize chest spawns for certain locations, they'd just need to prevent stacking like ToV's do.
• Banning Waypoints?
  All of them? or only chest ones? imagine getting banned for having waypoint to a quest item chest, difficult to enforce too.

It's also kinda funny how high amount of Lootrunners especially overworld ones are just stupidly rich and just keep doing it for god knows what reason (I'm sorry needmoney but your item is one of the reasons, I firmly belive that items is just exclusively a big "HEY I LOOTRUN" sign and nothing else)

I'm not even going to touch on excuses lootrunners use cause like... bro.

Damn this message is kinda a nothing burger

[ember grove]

gang on release antilr was miserable

also no one lootruns overworld anymore what are you on about

[solid oracle]

I think that discussion on antilr has kinda become an all-or-nothing mindset. I think that anti-lr could be implemented universally if it was less prone to false positives

[supple swift]

https://tenor.com/view/omni-man-omni-man-are-you-sure-are-you-sure-invincible-gif-3935116808772397515

[ember grove]

yes because anti lootrun exists

there is no point lootrunning overworld when you could lootrun dungeons, or if you're out, lr cz

i don't think you have actually tried lootrunning the overworld it sucks

[upper root]

Kid named Lootrunners to chasm: we had a good thing going. We had child-murdering fring. You had to go and blow it all up

[crystal canyon]

Trying to block people from mining chests is inevitably going to lead to bad gamefeel

[humble fulcrum]

pdias

[crystal canyon]

If we want to "stop lootrunning" it means incentivizing normal play not trying to block lr

[spare tundra]

good thinking

[humble fulcrum]

also yeah i dont have time for a full delve run?

[spare tundra]

no one would lr overworld even if it didnt shits like 2 har per hour 💔

or 2 ccs with r2 undelved pois but at this point that might as well be more

[snow holly]

indeed

[humble fulcrum]

lr has existed for a very long time clearly it wasnt that bad of a problem before when less ppl did it

let me play the game how i want

[solid oracle]

it was a problem then and a problem now

[supple swift]

Make chests have garbage loot by default and killing mobs and breaking spawners nearby increase it

[snow holly]

all you are doing is slowing down lootrun profits, people will still do it

[humble fulcrum]

no it wasnt for a bit

[snow holly]

it's the time factor not the actual loot

[humble fulcrum]

its just everyone started lootrunning now

instead of like 5 people

[supple swift]

It always was an issue

[leaden bridge]

It's... always been a problem?

Well, even if it was only a few people did it, the problem was there

[supple swift]

Groove was fucking nightmare to clear normally and stil continues to be to do this

[tulip sky]

Not a problem if you’re playing solo

[humble fulcrum]

we are talking about dungeon lr.

[leaden bridge]

It just so happen the game nowadays became a lot more meta then it was

[tulip sky]

(Sorry imlikesocat)

[solid oracle]

lr existing directly devalues playing normally

[supple swift]

It's just that now with certain developer adding hyper easy way to mark chests more people started to do so

[crystal canyon]

From day one it has been of developer concern

[jovial zealot]

wait like what do you mean

[humble fulcrum]

yes but now it has become very accessible

[jovial zealot]

are you saying you cannot complete the dungeon in 21 days

[humble fulcrum]

no i can but

[crystal canyon]

yup

[humble fulcrum]

i can clear more if i lootrun

[supple swift]

[insert lootrunner excuse]

[snow holly]

civility please

[humble fulcrum]

ok yui can u not

[crystal canyon]

everyone has the time, its a matter of just wanting it done faster. thats not inherently wrong

[supple swift]

I mean yea, If you ignore 50% of the game that is combat and spawners then.. yes. By all logic

[upper root]

I can clear more with fly hacks or something
In defense of lootrunning the game literally allows you to do it without fucking you up so why not

[humble fulcrum]

i dont want to clear a dungeon i just want to do raids and zenith and stuff

thats what i like about this game

[solid oracle]

Stopping LR directly benefits people who actually play the game 😸

[tulip sky]

interesting perspective

[warped dome]

there is no such thing as stopping lr

[upper root]

In this day and age degenerate optimization is a big gamer thing I think. It kinda is at odds with the original audience monumenta had which might be why it wasnt already addressed

[warped dome]

lootrunning is just optimal gameplay

[upper root]

Not this again

[spare tundra]

thats the perspective of every lootrunner, no?
there is so much content other than dungeons in monu now that dungeons have long since stopped being the only possible end gameplay goal

[upper root]

There's a difference between how optimal gameplay would look when you can literally ignore reqs and when you cant

[crisp pivot]

theres like no proof this would be the case

[warped dome]

as long as that involves running between 100 chests/minor objectives with weak, passively clearable mobs the optimization will always be to "ignore" as much as possible

[tulip sky]

maybe the solution is to make dungeons more fun

[warped dome]

no its not

[spare tundra]

take cz for example, getting into that without money is borderline impossible and where do you get money from if not lootrunning dungeons assuming cz is all you're interested in?

[warped dome]

fun doesnt matter

its optimization

[leaden bridge]

EVIL community HATES fun

😟

[humble fulcrum]

what im saying

[solid oracle]

less delve mats/har/hcs/hxp/pdia entering the economy from lootrunners will cause the value of mats to rise, even if only marginally 👍

[warped dome]

for the purpose of stopping lootrunning subjective fun is irrelevant

[upper root]

Lootrun could be the worst experience ever in gaming and people would still do it for money

[humble fulcrum]

proof: story strike

[crisp pivot]

... and will also result in less raw currency in the economy

[tulip sky]

well its cuz people find cz more fun than dungeon

[warped dome]

people lootrun cz too

[tulip sky]

or hf more fun than dungeon

[warped dome]

people lootrun hf too

[spare tundra]

unless the answer is "use rentals" but really picking between lootruns crutch and rentals crutch i would easily pick the former because at least the player uses their own things rather than own nothing and rent super expensive sets

[humble fulcrum]

and i found it fun

i liked it

i had fun doing it

[crisp pivot]

all lr methods for raw currency are also generating strands/pdias, you remove the strands/pdias entering the economy and also remove a large source of raw currency entering the economy

[spare tundra]

yea but you could make a point that both hf and cz are done for their bosses

cause otherwise they arent any different from delves

especially cz because, well, thats literally what it is

[warped dome]

i was replying to the idea that people find cz more fun than dungeons in the context that more fun = less lootrunning

people still lootrun the 'fun' content

[upper root]

This is why rush is the best

You cant lootrun it

Rush >>>> Shifting water rooms >>> r1 > r2 > r3 > cz

[solid oracle]

It's true

[warped dome]

yes rush is a good example where optimal gameplay isnt ignoring mobs though the meta is lootrun adjacent so i dont think its a better outcome

[crystal canyon]

can we stop all development and start work on a shifting sequel instead

[warped dome]

a better example would be like a boss rush, you cant lootrun that and tanky wouldnt be meta

[solid oracle]

So true bestie

[leaden bridge]

Aaand the meta is glassoid

[warped dome]

yeah basically

[tulip sky]

well i guess the most fun part is the bosses

[leaden bridge]

[tulip sky]

and optimizing bosses

so they lr to get to boss fast

and optimize 40s boss kill because thats satisfying

[solid oracle]

More people should be forced to play challenge forum I think

[warped dome]

in modern cz bosses arent really that interesting personally

40s boss kill where it doesnt cast anything

[leaden bridge]

Modernmenta gets it so easy 🙄 🙄 🙄

[upper root]

Fullwipe r3 shifting with reincarnation and 1 shots

Solved

[crystal canyon]

I think some folks, especially Frossoli, are thinking of how we could change that basic formula so optimization stays generally in vein with the base loop. So instead of ignoring combat / spawners you'd in theory just be really good at it.

ideas towards such a system would always be welcome

[spice owl]

Im not sure why the conversation keeps going back to lootrunning honestly. It is entirely tangential to the actual post (despite being in the title). This post is actually about discussing whether anything should be done about perceived concerns with waypoints, and what limits (if any) there should be on them.

[crystal canyon]

because LR is the crux of the underlying issue

[snow holly]

insert-slowing-down-pickaxes-argument-here

[crystal canyon]

it makes sense really for it to constantly swing back

[spice owl]

Yes, but thats a topic for another thread, this is about waypoints ._.

[solid oracle]

the thread is about the accessibility of lootrunning, how would lootrunning not be a topic

[spice owl]

The title is.

The thread is about waypoints.

[tulip sky]

mobs and spawners drop loot (first spawnwave, accounting for legion)

[crystal canyon]

this but the loot is in nearby chests for real

[solid oracle]

if it was on spawner break it'd be peak

[crisp pivot]

real

[upper root]

I dont know if I like item drops that I gotta pick up

[spice owl]

Can we talk about waypoints

[jovial zealot]

i think that arguably makes LR more favourable, not less (although that’s probably what you’re really trying to say isn’t it)

[snow holly]

?

[jovial zealot]

like

if pickaxe are slower

[tulip sky]

magnet

[jovial zealot]

it sucks ass to play the game normally

[spice owl]

Spawner mechs, mob changes, pickaxe changes, loot changes, its like, all entirely out of scope for whether waypoints should be legal...

[upper root]

Style meter that is used for loot tables

[jovial zealot]

so you just LR instead

[crisp pivot]

i think its a reference to a complaint me and many other people have made about how spawner mining being so slow incentivises skipping them

[solid oracle]

That's what he's talking about

Pickaxes have gradually been slowed down

[snow holly]

probably 1/3rd of delve gameplay-time consists of sitting there and left clicking on spawners and picks just keep getting slowed down

[solid oracle]

(boreas mattock, stoneborn sculptor, pureshard adze)

[snow holly]

i don't believe that to be fun.

[crystal canyon]

In theory the mobs and spawners all have value in their xp but its just not enough to matter

[tulip sky]

do you mean hexfall encounters by this

[crystal canyon]

no

[tulip sky]

raising the value of xp is also a good nudge

[upper root]

Hyperbole to this extent coming from you might damage the point

[crisp pivot]

also like all haste being deleted

[jovial zealot]

give me back haste 3 and my life is

[snow holly]

im not sure of the actual time percentage but it's substantial regardless

[crystal canyon]

the Zero thought idea I meant was instead of dropping items directly they just increase the loot found in the closest chest by X% or wtv

[tulip sky]

risks still being profitable to run without combat

unless it starts at 0

[upper root]

Spawner breaking is kinda slop ngl wish monumenta had half the spawners that were twice the threat generation

[crystal canyon]

sure it'd be profitable but the opportunity cost across the whole dungeon would in theory be quite impactful

[leaden bridge]

Dude if mobs dropped loot my monkey brain would die from dopamine overdose

[humble fulcrum]

i tried to get my gf to play monu and she just hated mining spawners taking so long

[tulip sky]

you could probably hollowknightify monumenta by making spawners instantly decay

[leaden bridge]

That is such a social experiment i want to see

[tulip sky]

i think most spawners are designed with the intent to trip once

[leaden bridge]

(Everything gets nerfed because clear is too fast)

[upper root]

The ability to death rush even easier does not sound great

[spare tundra]

mfw some random chiv mob over the void

or like

[tulip sky]

thats true

[spare tundra]

half the indigo dungeon basically

even without delves

[tulip sky]

ig in hk the mobs come back when you die

[leaden bridge]

LOL

[tulip sky]

maybe the spawners should come back when you die

[leaden bridge]

You can tell I didn't think for longer than a second 💔

[upper root]

The ambush rooms are dope but nothing in monumenta is equipped to work like that

[snow holly]

can someone do that as an experimental delve modifier
all mobs get a 2x base health increase and every spawner is now a 1 spawn decay

[jade onyx]

accumulate loot score by killing mobs and breaking spawners. upon opening a chest, your current loot score (up to a certain point) is consumed to generate the chest.

more loot score consumed, more rewards

[shadow locust]

it has been 12 months since I last touched monumenta

[upper root]

Style meter

[shadow locust]

and I'm not sure how lootrunning mods became popular

what changed lol

[upper root]

They're easy

[jade onyx]

• ADVANCING SHADOWS CHAIN (x22)

[shadow locust]

I remember people were making lootrun paths even as far back as march of last year

[tulip sky]

to discourage deathrush

[spare tundra]

people found out there is a esp u dont get banned for so uhm we're here now

[tulip sky]

make mob death to loot into your inv

tp

[spare tundra]

its like glorified chest waypoints but gameplay is just straight up esp

[shadow locust]

what the fuck

[spare tundra]

technically it marks the chests you've found before but u can just download a waypoint file

[tulip sky]

look at screenshots

[spare tundra]

and it shows thru walls

and it hides on chest break

so like.

[shadow locust]

ok so it's just wynntils lootrun paths but with chest esp

got it

[spare tundra]

there is no path just esp

[tulip sky]

no longer does that

i think hide on chest break was deemed illegal

[spare tundra]

was it now

[shadow locust]

idk that seems pretty strange to me

[spare tundra]

idt even that was talked about or given any official stance

[shadow locust]

just ban chest esp

[spare tundra]

its not chest esp

its flowey mod old versions

[shadow locust]

what is flowey mod

[tulip sky]

multipurpose mod

[upper root]

Tm dev made a mod

[spare tundra]

general monumenta qol

[tulip sky]

mr/portal timer

cz charm stats budget viewer

contract reminder

[upper root]

Legal chest esp

[spare tundra]

its like a good all around mod and uh

offbrand esp

it is removed in new versions but nothing is stopping people from downloading old ones

this whole discussion is about whether it should become illegal and where to draw the line

since it is still waypoints by technicality

[shadow locust]

hmm ok

I mean lootrunning is kind of an inevitability

monumenta's endgame content loop is playing the same 5 pieces of content day by day week by week

with the goal of clicking as many chests as possible to accumulate wealth that you will never spend

so at some point there will be mods created to make this process as fast and painless as possible

I may be misunderstanding this

but I think the line should be drawn at chest esp

if you can see the chest through the wall at any point then it is not allowed

if the mod simply generates a blue box around a chest then it is fine

unfortunately I think banning lootrunning mods entirely will just make it harder to gather data on how they're being used because I imagine no one will stop using them and they're quite hard to detect

[spare tundra]

but then should xaero's waypoints not be allowed as well? or hell even writing down every chest coords on a piece of paper is effectively the same

[shadow locust]

is xaero's waypoints actually allowed in monumenta

is that not also basically just cave radar and chest esp

[warped dome]

radar is banned waypoints are allowed

[shadow locust]

you can just set waypoints into whatever caves and hidden chests you want to find and dig straight into them

[spare tundra]

well yeah

[warped dome]

yeah thats literally what this is talking about

[spare tundra]

but waypoints also see tons of general usage

at least half my time using waypoints is random ass r3 charm traders

i pull up from wiki

[humble fulcrum]

same

[shadow locust]

this is what I'm confused about

how would you actually ban lootrunning

there are too many ways to track where all the chests are

[jade onyx]

Make loot tied to mobs/spawners

Intrinsically

[spare tundra]

that's why this thread has however many messages it does...

it is undetectable

within reason

[shadow locust]

exactly

[warped dome]

as far as the thread goes it isnt banning lootrunning its about banning waypoints

[warped dome]

this but also some way to prevent mob grouping otherwise you just end up with cz lootrunning which is fundamentally the same goal of ignoring mobs

[humble fulcrum]

^

[shadow locust]

the fundamental argument behind all this is that developers feel terrible that players optimize their way out of actually interacting with content though

right

[tulip sky]

yes

[shadow locust]

then even if loot is tied to mobs and spawners

people will still lootrun with DoT alchemist or shaman

which is what I think happens in portal

[tulip sky]

i think that's fine

they're fighting things

they're helping other players

[warped dome]

definitely not man there is virtually no difference

[tulip sky]

they're engaging with some design

[leaden bridge]

Even so it falls within the domain with the balance team, they are interacting the game in such a way that they could do something

[shadow locust]

is throwing 1 potion while running past a mob functionally any different from just running past that mob

[mossy sigil]

this is i think the sad truth of whats going on

[shadow locust]

I think banning chest waypoints would certainly make it slightly harder to lootrun

[mossy sigil]

information spread has kind of caused this in every game

[shadow locust]

but is there any way to properly prevent the spirit of optimization from forever snowballing until players find the new meta strategy for ignoring content

[mossy sigil]

but i dont think you can prevent information from really spreading

[shadow locust]

I'm probably going off topic rn but I don't think banning waypoint mods will actually quell the desire to lootrun within the playerbase, nor will it decrease the amount/efficiency of lootrunning in the long term

and I also presume that it will hurt people who use waypoints to find charm traders, for example

[tulip sky]

Experimental Delve Mod: Pinata (0pts)

• Cannot be selected with Colossal
• All unmodified spawners now decay after one spawn wave
• Chests are empty
• Either:
  • Killing a mob adds a loot roll to the end pinata chest
  • Killing a mob does a loot roll and teleports loot to player (disadvantage: inventory clog)

[shadow locust]

like idk exactly when lootrunning became rampant enough for this conversation to happen but I think it was bound to happen eventually

[tulip sky]

the ultimate idea i think is to bring whatever "lootrun" is into line with the dev vision of the game

and optimization being to play into more intended facets

[warped dome]

it is literally impossible to prevent people from optimizing
but people arent optimizing for ignoring content they are optimizing for earning har over time
the problem is that har over time lends itself to ignoring content, because the only actual economic objective in the game is to go from chest a to chest b (and not to kill mobs)
so the goal would be to change/split the objective of chest a to chest b to some other acceptable objective, which would be a major rework

[shadow locust]

the goal will always fundamentally be to earn money though

[tulip sky]

they just need to make the fastest money making method to kill mobs

[warped dome]

yes and that isnt a fixable issue or even an issue at all i wouldnt say

i havent seen anyone complain that people want to earn money at least

[tulip sky]

any thoughts on this

[shadow locust]

I think to some extent the devs will always feel terrible about their majority playerbase that just doesn't want to enjoy the game

past a certain point

[tulip sky]

i would phrase it differently

[shadow locust]

because once a certain proportion of endgame players play through everything to the extent where they don't find it fun anymore/the game stops being a niche community that plays it for the fun of it

the fundamental goal of the community (or at least part of the community) will just be to make as much money as possible

[tulip sky]

the majority playerbase enjoy the game in a direction that is orthogonal to the dev direction

[warped dome]

if chests are starting empty you might as well just add it all to the post-boss lootchest

[shadow locust]

frankly I enjoy(ed) monumenta because I liked making money

[tulip sky]

devs can make these directions align

[tulip sky]

fair

[shadow locust]

how though

[warped dome]

just fill chests with food/blocks/arrows and put all the currencies/valuables in the end chest

for this mod ^

[leaden bridge]

Pcrys power creep...

[tulip sky]

by making the fastest money making method be to engage with mobs

[shadow locust]

woud it make the devs any happier to see the players use the most cheesy speedrun strategy to kill mobs with DoT to farm money

than just watching them run past mobs to click chests

[tulip sky]

certainly happier than chest mining

[solid oracle]

strike based chests with a spawner req for entering your lootroom

[tulip sky]

i would say so

[warped dome]

no

[mossy sigil]

its exciting entering a dungeon for the first time and getting cool weapons

[leaden bridge]

The overpowered DoT alch places the burden on the balance team

[shadow locust]

am I actually interacting with the content though

[mossy sigil]

i loved getting the prismatic sword from the mage r1 dungeon for an example

and using it mid encounter

[warped dome]

yeah i dont think its an ideal solution but as far as that mod suggestion goes its better than calculating mob kills per chest

[shadow locust]

if I click 1 button instead of 0 buttons to kill mobs

[leaden bridge]

Which is better than the disconnected objective between chest A to chest B

[tulip sky]

then its in the purview of balance

[solid oracle]

infinitely more than zero

[warped dome]

no

and this is also an issue people should acknowledge ngl

[upper root]

Its true, we cant fix things gradually because there's easy dev intended builds that exist

[warped dome]

cause how do you complain about lootrunning vs still lootrunning but you press 1 button every 15s

[shadow locust]

idk I just don't think the devs will ever regain that intrinsic satisfaction of knowing that the majority of the playerbase plays the game because they love how fun it is (rather than just optimizing the shit out of my har/hour gameplay loop)

[tulip sky]

make the content harder

[upper root]

Might as well let people ignore the game

[shadow locust]

monumenta is just a little too large and a little too old for that now

[tulip sky]

make those builds that allow you to dot weaker

i dont play wynncraft but i feel like they were actually able to make lootrunning be some form of engagement with content

i feel like its doable

[upper root]

Dot is magnitudes more respectable than lootrunning no matter what lootrunners say 😭

[shadow locust]

this is not true unfortunately 😭

[warped dome]

this is delusion genuinely it is identical to lootrunning in all significant ways

[shadow locust]

we went from clicking chests with warp to casting 1 spell per second and running in circles with warp

[warped dome]

dot is not interacting with content

[leaden bridge]

It would be better as a balance issue than a design issue

[humble fulcrum]

why is lootrunning a problem again

[shadow locust]

like it's an improvement but do the devs actually enjoy seeing players "lootrun" their content instead of just lootrunning their content

[humble fulcrum]

i mean i want to know why its a problem

[upper root]

In the way of playing the game using dev intended setups, no
Sure its easy as hell but the fix is a balance pass rather than a systems wide change of how monumenta plays

[warped dome]

its still a design issue, and its the same for pretty much all aoe that you can just group every mob in the dungeon at once and kill them all

[shadow locust]

my point is that the fundamental issue of players not engaging with content isn't really going to go away

and like

[upper root]

Its dev intended so its met the basic threshold

[shadow locust]

waypoints are helpful

[leaden bridge]

Tenebrist gameplay...

[humble fulcrum]

also this thread is about waypoints

not solutions to lootrun

[upper root]

Honestly every proponent of waypoints makes me feel more against waypoints

[mossy sigil]

do people not? everyone ive inved to play with has engaged with the content i think in the normal way

[upper root]

I have not seen a convincing argument at all

[tulip sky]

i dont think its too bad of a problem

i dont think its a problem*

[leaden bridge]

I think its like, a post endgame realization

[shadow locust]

it's mostly a post endgame thing

[leaden bridge]

I mean people are still gonna play the game for fun like brah who starts a game to optimize it

AND PLEASE dont jinx me.

[mossy sigil]

the only time ive seen outside help / looking things up was for a few of the tesseract puzzles, though ive been trying them with no tutorial (apart from one of the puzzles which mentally boomed me)

[tulip sky]

until it maybe affects other players

[upper root]

Its crazy that people keep playing past the point of having fun but I guess we built different

[warped dome]

its a problem if you want to optimize and dont like that optimized gameplay puts killing mobs as a secondary objective even with anti-lr

[shadow locust]

once you've already played the whimsical first-timer joy out of the game it becomes lootrunning slop

[upper root]

Not to me, sorry

[shadow locust]

I am quite surprised that lootrunning mods became big enough for this to be a conversation in the first place

[mossy sigil]

ohhhh i see, im still in r2. Still, my perspective is that this server is one of the greatest ones ive ever played

[upper root]

This is a you issue

[mossy sigil]

and ive played an ungodly amount of mc

[shadow locust]

I also thought that people would just play the game for fun

but like

apparently not

[humble fulcrum]

i play the game to have fun and optimized content is a means to having fun

[leaden bridge]

I mean optimization is awesome yeah

[mossy sigil]

i dont really read the discord much, so it was quite surprising to see the sentiment low

[leaden bridge]

Go play strikes... start sweating bm...

[upper root]

Optimization is dope

[leaden bridge]

https://tenor.com/view/mr-peabody-hypnotize-gif-18017563854157472082

Return to the r2 glory days...

[humble fulcrum]

also i like optimizing its fun

[solid oracle]

there's a pretty substantial difference between optimizing clear and optimizing lr

[warped dome]

optimized clear is just dot

[mossy sigil]

even the dungeons which people say is unfun has its own charm

[shadow locust]

the difference between optimizing clear and optimizing lr is pretty blurry at the intersection though

[upper root]

I dont care if currently optimization is lootrunning in terms of the people who optimize for fun. Have your fun, the game is built to make lr the best

[leaden bridge]

"Just dot" what if they nerf it brah

[mossy sigil]

and i wont forget stuff like cyan, while long i had a blast still

even if i did fall down a few times

[humble fulcrum]

ok but am i wrong for having fun just because its not dev intended? its not even against the rules or anything

[warped dome]

then just the next best aoe which is dot but on 10s ability cds instead of every second ticks

[shadow locust]

doesn't even have to be dot

[leaden bridge]

Shit wtf...

[upper root]

Not the slippery slope 😭

[shadow locust]

past a certain point people will just have mobs run behind them and nuke them with aoe every 10 seconds

[warped dome]

its not a slippery slope

its cz right now today

[leaden bridge]

No.. please dont clear fast with an arcanist...

[shadow locust]

is this not literally what edd players do in the big 25

or cz players

[leaden bridge]

That's what cz does yeah

[upper root]

The juggling between "wow dot is as bad as lootrunning (its not)" is pretty funny

[humble fulcrum]

can anyone answer this

[warped dome]

juggling one statement?

[leaden bridge]

I think so I got banned for SR AutoAttuner

[shadow locust]

personally I think lootrunning is fine

[humble fulcrum]

god forbid i want to enjoy the game in a different way than how you do

[upper root]

Lootrunners are so good at optimizing their detractors to be even more convinced that lootrunning should go

[humble fulcrum]

can u read

[tulip sky]

i think lootrunning is fine

[humble fulcrum]

what

[mossy sigil]

a big part i think is how important trading / economy is

[shadow locust]

I personally enjoy the game because making money is fun

[upper root]

I started out thinking its fine ish

[shadow locust]

if I ever play monumenta as my main server again (I probably will soon, indigo looks really cool) then I will be doing it because making money is fun

[tulip sky]

i'm mostly discussing this from the perspective of if devs ever wanted to axe lootrunning, how should they do it

[leaden bridge]

I DID

[tulip sky]

but if they should do it all, im not really know

[leaden bridge]

[shadow locust]

will there ever be point past today when the devs can go to sleep knowing that players are fighting mobs and clearing spawners the way god intended

[upper root]

I dont think its worth it as much as dealing with waypoints is worth it

[mossy sigil]

i do this still...

[shadow locust]

or will they forever just go to sleep knowing that the players are still using dot slop or aoe slop to "clear" mobs

[mossy sigil]

it was painful clearing reverie though

for the 4th time

[upper root]

Fake ass argument again lmao

[shadow locust]

and then every change to make lootrunning harder (such as this one) is another step down the slippery slope of hoping players will eventually play the game

[warped dome]

i dont care if lootrunning goes or stays but anyone saying passive clear is any different from lootrunning is delusional
passive clear is genuinely more slop than lootrunning because its literally still just lootrunning but with a speed limit attached to make it even more boring

[upper root]

I said dot is fine

[spare tundra]

any player is bound to do that at least somewhere because if you lootrun the unfun dungeons for you just to get money, you are spending that money to play something else you like

i doubt many people lootrun just to lootrun

[humble fulcrum]

no one forces people to not have fun

they lootrun to have fun

[upper root]

Maybe one day a lootrunner won't skip the important parts of a game conversation to get to their point

[humble fulcrum]

is having fun something to be patched

[mossy sigil]

some people find fun in super optimizing things

i think the goal should probably be to raise the floor

[upper root]

Some people have fun fly hacking

[humble fulcrum]

....

[spare tundra]

you wont catch me doing indigo lr ever, it is an amazing fucking dungeon and i'm all for it but if i dont wanna pay 40 ccs per forum mat and dont like forum itself why should i not make it easier for me

[leaden bridge]

That is ideal yes

[mossy sigil]

so the difference between a lootrunner and a normal player isnt like heaven and earth

[humble fulcrum]

please stop

i want serious discussion

[upper root]

Please use real arguments

[mossy sigil]

i dont mind if im half as efficient as a lootrunner

[humble fulcrum]

fly hacking is obviously against the rules

why is that a consideration

[mossy sigil]

but it does slightly dampen motivation if im spending 5h to clear rev, when u can lootrun it in 20 mins

[humble fulcrum]

we are within the boundaries set by moderators

[upper root]

Maybe lootrunning could be too at some point

Maybe the bounds change

[humble fulcrum]

but i would argue it shouldnt

[shadow locust]

fly hacking is not on the same order of magnitude as lootrunning

[humble fulcrum]

^

[shadow locust]

that is a strange example to use

[tulip sky]

sometimes when i engage in a monumenta debate i start questioning my fundamental moral principles

[humble fulcrum]

ur just starting to get ridiculous

[warped dome]

how would you make lootrunning against the rules?

[upper root]

"I like lootrun" is a better argument than "dont patch fun"

[leaden bridge]

Yeah we're closing R3 to patch out any fun

[upper root]

Via banning lootrunners

[warped dome]

if you clear x poi in under 10 minutes you get banned?

[leaden bridge]

Sorry pluh spawns no AoE slop or DoT alch

[humble fulcrum]

no i like content that i have a good time with because of lootrun

[leaden bridge]

Playing R2 as Monarch intended

[upper root]

Up to mod interpretation, I dont care about hard and fast rules so that isnt a gotcha

[warped dome]

up to mod interpretation

idk

[tulip sky]

like lowkey forite is making a point from purely logic but i think my heart is not there

its like

[spare tundra]

up to mod interpretation has notoriously never ever ended well for any game in history
see: wynncraft

[upper root]

The take for lootrunning being "i like it too much" is genuinely one i consider good

[leaden bridge]

LMFAO

[upper root]

The rest are fake logic though

[tulip sky]

suppose we were in a hypothetical dystopian society where lootrunners were automatically banned by an individual moderator who was watching behind you and could see your thoughts

[humble fulcrum]

i dont think fly hacking and lootrunning shouldever be considered the same

one is an unfair advantage

[tulip sky]

i think is what forite means

[humble fulcrum]

one is not unfair

[upper root]

Thats besides the point

[humble fulcrum]

you literally made the point

[upper root]

Please just be direct and say you like lootrunning

[shadow locust]

why should lootrunning be made harder in practice though

[humble fulcrum]

i cant because i dont

[upper root]

Its good enough to keep it if enough ppl like it

[leaden bridge]

Something about the economy

[shadow locust]

it's not going to stop the spirit of lootrunning from forever ruining the motivation of devs

[mossy sigil]

playing in a way people dont like isnt anything like cheating though

thats just playing super meta

[shadow locust]

it's just a way to play the game that people don't like

[leaden bridge]

Girl its totally valid to like lootrunning

I mean is that not what strikes are for

(Even if they make a little too much dinero)

[upper root]

You have said something like this thrice already and its still just as fake

[shadow locust]

is portal not literally designed for you to lootrun it

[leaden bridge]

Repeatable, optimizable content

[humble fulcrum]

except i dont and i only lootrun because i like other content that can be enjoyed more by lootrunning

[mossy sigil]

i love strikes for the music

[spare tundra]

intentionally fast paced as that

[mossy sigil]

if sr did not have the amazing track it does

[humble fulcrum]

well i somewhatlike lootrunning but after like 2 clears it gets too boring

[mossy sigil]

i dont think i would play it as much

[leaden bridge]

Sealed Remorse once again being Bis strike !

[spare tundra]

lootrunning is fun in like.. forum

where you learn new chests

that is putting aside the waypoints thing

[mossy sigil]

tbh i like fs a bit more gameplay wise, but sr music...

its too good

[leaden bridge]

SR glazers how do we respond

[humble fulcrum]

i like sr

[leaden bridge]

Excellent.

[humble fulcrum]

i think

[leaden bridge]

I dont

[mossy sigil]

i love how the fs boss can just kill everyone if you mess upo

[leaden bridge]

[spare tundra]

most of the fun i find in lootruns is stumbling upon a chest ive never seen before and wondering what kinda mental illness somebody had to have to put it there but in a good way

[humble fulcrum]

cshura unlocked rocket boots and chausses in r1

[crystal canyon]

its ragebait right

[mossy sigil]

wats rocket boots 😮

ive seen the msg in chat, i thought it was r3 tho

[spare tundra]

it is

[snow holly]

not even ragebait

[upper root]

I used to think lootrunning was universally disliked even by the lootrunners which is where my original facade of authority came from. Messages like this are convincing because it tells me its at least not a complete wash fot all involved

[humble fulcrum]

thats the joke

[mossy sigil]

oh

[snow holly]

it would be interesting seeing pacing

[mossy sigil]

i love difficult bosses though, i wish the world ones were juiced up massively

seeing everyone die in chat is epic

[tulip sky]

Experimental Delve Mod: Pinata (0pts)

• Cannot be selected with Colossal
• All unmodified spawners now decay after one spawn wave
• Chests are empty
• Either:
  • Killing a mob adds a loot roll to the end pinata chest or lootroom
  • Killing a mob does a loot roll and teleports loot to player (disadvantage: inventory clog)

[upper root]

Its true

[tulip sky]

anyways i think the slippery slope of clear optimization has a bottom

[spare tundra]

well there are more fun things i would do instead of lootrunning had i not needed money to do them in the first place but lootrunning itself is not completely disgusting to me; it can still be fairly entertaining especially to people who like optimization a lot

[mossy sigil]

ive never been to a server lately, where the game feels hard

its like a throw back to old mc

its why i love the server so much

[snow holly]

in theory, it should be longer because spawners dont have to be broken, but you're doubling the total health of the poi
but if it's shorter on average...

[upper root]

Though once we do cut through the noise, we can eventually ask whether optimization is still just as fun even if lootrun goes. We are definitely not ready for that yet though, seeing this convo

[humble fulcrum]

would immediately backfire with momentum based classes

[tulip sky]

its balanceable i think

[upper root]

If half the soawners decayed maybe

No health balancing either

That doesnt sound fun to me

[tulip sky]

i can totally see why forite says "i like lr" is a good argument tbh

[warped dome]

its nonsensical to want to get rid of lootrunning but simultaneously defend dot/any other kind of passive clear
also this isnt for lootrunning (aka passive clear), im not even arguing to keep lr? this is against passive clearing (aka lootrunning)

[spare tundra]

well i find non-lootrun optimization fun as well (see 5 minute nadirs) but lootruns are just a necessity for money atp to consistently get infus

[tulip sky]

its balanceable and i think the slippery slope has a bottom

[warped dome]

how is aoe dot balancable?

[upper root]

Its not nonsensical to be iterative in your approach

[warped dome]

its not a numbers issue

its that you dont need to do anything for the mobs to die

[spare tundra]

im kinda speaking for myself about a few months ago, i dont rly lootrun as much and rather just do normal delves but in group nor do i need money that much but the point still kinda stands as im sure i wasnt the only one

[snow holly]

aoe dot on 2 of the tankiest classes in the game

what is the point

same lootrunning argument

[humble fulcrum]

i agree

[leaden bridge]

I mean... you are building damage pieces for the DoT right?

[warped dome]

yes exactly its identically to lootrunning

[upper root]

And? Whats the conclusion here

[warped dome]

"lootrunning is bad" and "dot is fine" is mutually exclusive

[upper root]

Not really

[humble fulcrum]

dot is literally the same thing with extra steps

[warped dome]

steps is generous

step

[upper root]

In the sense of gameplay effects yes ill give you that

[humble fulcrum]

the gameplay is the same

the goal is the same

[snow holly]

dot apoth can take supernovas to the face and shrug it off and infernolock is, well, infernolock
i dont think its healthy to specifically target lootrunning itself and not target the nearly-completely-identically-functioning-playstyle

[upper root]

In the sense of effort-time distance from here to there it is different

[warped dome]

no only in the time distance

the effort difference is a rounding error

[upper root]

Developer time effort to fix it

Not player time effort

[tulip sky]

oracore what do you think about lr -> mob drops + removing dot

[mossy sigil]

dot builds look fun tho...

i was thinking of making an inferno build at some point

[humble fulcrum]

dot builds are interesting

some ppl like it but its just seen as a bad build?

idk why

[upper root]

Its why the "what about x" falls on my deaf ears, because changes for good have never been done all at once. Iterative as always

[humble fulcrum]

i mean its because some ppl use it to lootrun but

[warped dome]

well dot as in inferno/decay isnt the problem is all forms of passive clear

[jade onyx]

dot builds simply play differently and they perform worse when it comes down to it so whatever

[mossy sigil]

yea- like i enjoy warrior as its my main, but i wanna try new stuff out too

dots or trident stuff looks cool

[tulip sky]

days hypothetically if clearing mobs optimized was as fast as lr would you be fine with losing lr

[solid oracle]

rising tide lifts all boats
addressing lootrunning and making warlock (mostly Tenebrist) not parasitically attached to inferno are all net positives imo

[tulip sky]

i think this might be an impossible hypothetical

[jade onyx]

who cares if someone wants to relax and play the game in a non-intensive way

[mortal grail]

Dot still exist 💀?

[humble fulcrum]

yeah

[mossy sigil]

passive clear can be nice and chill too though

[vast blaze]

[mossy sigil]

i think its nice theres lots of builds people go

[warped dome]

passive clear gameplay is identical to lootrunning except that its slower

[jade onyx]

genuinely what

[tulip sky]

what other stuff is passive clear

shield wall, tcleric?

[mossy sigil]

im not a dev, but as a player i dont mind if someone is throwing totems or something out and killing things

thats what their class does

[tulip sky]

whyd you summon dumpling guys

[warped dome]

flame spirit, snowstorm, shaman totems, thorns cleric

[upper root]

In so many facets its not identical

[warped dome]

anything that isnt YOU actually killing the mobs

[upper root]

I get wgt you say it though

[jade onyx]

flame spirit, my favorite passive clear that requires you to hit mobs

[mossy sigil]

thats kinda like summoner-style gameplay no?

[warped dome]

if you spend more time looking at mining spawners than looking and killing mobs you arent interacting with the mobs

[upper root]

You are only considering how it looks from gameplay

[mossy sigil]

thats a super popular archetype in games

[leaden bridge]

You are interacting with the spawners though

One goalpost closer!

[upper root]

Its true

[warped dome]

i mean i consider cz lootrunning lootrunning

i dont lootrun outside of cz anyway

[jade onyx]

no?? because you are killing mobs??

[tulip sky]

keep nerfing passive clear until the dev threshold of sufficient effort

[vast blaze]

A way that can discourage chest loot running is giving a reason to break spawners, like giving more loot at the end of a dungeon if you break spawners* I have no concept to help with a idea to help but giving a purpose to breaking spawners might help

[warped dome]

no, your thorns armor is killing the mobs

you arent doing anything

[mortal grail]

Depend actually

💀

[upper root]

One step at a time is way better than nothing which is way better than all at once

I agree

[jade onyx]

mate I actively play thorns don't say it's all passive

[mossy sigil]

bonus loot sounds cool

[warped dome]

the thorns part of thorns cleric is intrisicly passive

[mossy sigil]

if it doesnt take away from finding cool rares when your clearing

[lofty aspen]

what if spawners dropped a real amount of xp instead of 1 fullclear dungeon = 3 world bosses worth of xp balls

[jade onyx]

yes but just because I have thorns doesn't mean I stop interacting with the content suddenly

[warped dome]

there is nothing you can do to impact thorns besides pressing w into mobs more often i guess

[vast blaze]

That does nothing with lootrunning for money

[jade onyx]

I think you have not played thorns post nerfs

[lofty aspen]

xp is supposed to be the "loot" from mining spawners but its so fake rn

[jade onyx]

besides it's getting shot next patch probably so whatever

[mossy sigil]

🙁 my epic warrior build i had planned...

[upper root]

Its probably just a relic of vanilla mc and nothing more ngl

[leaden bridge]

Xp is loot except A. dying makes you lose it all and B. Celestial Zenith Enlightenment Charmed Experience Bottle

[warped dome]

thorns is a passive enchant nerfs doesnt make it less passive

[jade onyx]

By that I mean Sanctified

go wild

[vast blaze]

Make xp convertible to cxp

[mossy sigil]

oh is that a cleric thing?

there was too many buttons to press on that class...

[jade onyx]

I think that if you are forced to engage more because it is weaker it is less passive

[solid oracle]

maybe dawn should get a real skill instead of the XP farm tool

[warped dome]

the parts where you arent relying on thorns/reflection isnt passive yeah, im not talking about the non-passive (and therefore probably non-optimal) parts of your particular build

[jade onyx]

mah 150% exp for one button

[leaden bridge]

Cz is really scary

[jade onyx]

true but then what's wrong with that

[vast blaze]

Everyone is talking a bout normal lr but nothing about rush cz

[solid oracle]

the source of all evils

[jade onyx]

I'm still playing the game

[vast blaze]

It makes so much cash

[jade onyx]

I'm not actively avoiding spawners and I'm killing mobs

[leaden bridge]

Cz has done unnamed amount of damage yeah

IDEA! WE CLOSE CZ!

[jade onyx]

Saying passive gameplay = lootrun is reductive

[leaden bridge]

Everyone plays Depths!

[snow holly]

god please

[jade onyx]

born to Edd, forced to charm gamble

[solid oracle]

goodbye r3

[mossy sigil]

depths is so funnnn

though i feel bad for throwing the last edd...

[leaden bridge]

It's okay edd is scary

[jade onyx]

sorry guys I panic potion of annihilation'd myself

[warped dome]

what is the difference between mining a spawner and mining a chest? was cz never lootrunning? the main complaint against lootrunning is that you dont engage with the mobs, your thorns/dot/360deg aoe of choice killing stuff for you isnt engaging with the mobs

[solid oracle]

edd is two letters away from Eddie
what did TM mean by this

[upper root]

Also "braindead passive clear" if it exists is impossible to deal with when there's lootrunning right there that beats everything in "clear" efficiency

[upper root]

Its that good

[vast blaze]

Remove poi’s dungeons strikes and speed stat and boom no more lr

[jade onyx]

"what's the difference between mining a spawner and mining a chest"
??

[warped dome]

anti lr systems immediately turn lootrunning into passive clear you can see this with every anti lr system
also "if it exists" ????

[warped dome]

yes

the avoiding spawners part doesnt matter

lootrunners arent pathing around spawners the only difference is mining them or not

[jade onyx]

so if a player uses an ability to deal damage over time that's bad and evil but if another uses an ability to do one big chunk of damage that's good

[upper root]

Yeah so once the biggest problem is passive clear then we can address it in this poisoned hypothetical universe we've concocted

[leaden bridge]

That universe is real brah

[warped dome]

what hypothetical universe?

[leaden bridge]

Its cz gameplay

[warped dome]

literally

[upper root]

You cant try to fix a problem that has an even worse alternative

[warped dome]

skt cz mob requirement strikes

overworld pois

hello?

[jade onyx]

i don't get what you're trying to say lootrunning =/= passive clear playstyles because one avoids mobs and the other does not

[leaden bridge]

Balancing for anything outside of cz seems reasonable

[warped dome]

lootrunning doesnt avoid mobs it ignores mobs

[upper root]

Yeah I think we are having two entirely different conversations at this point

[jade onyx]

who cares if it's less interactive if they're still engaging with the content

[warped dome]

because thorns killing mobs for you doesnt count as you killing the mobs
If you care about engaging with mobs passive clear isnt doing that for you

[upper root]

Its like how you thought I thought you thought I wanted a need money exclusive heuristic machine to enforce a needless clause

[jade onyx]

same thing pretty much

[warped dome]

i didnt think anything man you replied to me apparently without backreading and never picking up on context for 2 hours

obviously if you reply to me i think you know what im discussing

[upper root]

No it was definitely the other way around

[mortal grail]

[upper root]

Now im convinced your universe is hypothetical

[warped dome]

💧

[tulip sky]

i have to say forite is a crazy debater

[jade onyx]

i don't think that this is entirely fair to be perfectly honest because it is still better than ignoring/avoiding mobs completely?
am I less "engaged" then a person playing a normal setup? yeah, probably?
am I still interacting with the content more than a lootrunner? yeah, probably?

[warped dome]

in what way is thorns/reflection passively killing mobs for you interacting with the content more than a lootrunner

[tulip sky]

regardless of the argument about passive clear i think that mob drop loot certainly a step from which more can be done

[shy horizon]

lootrunner at least manage to not die in swarms and passively clear is just random bullshit go

[tulip sky]

the most drastic of which is nuking alch and shaman and warlock and tcleric

[shy horizon]

how is it better

[jade onyx]

1. i don't kill with just thorns/reflection if I did that I would pop like a grape instantly
2. at least the mobs have an interaction? where they hit me? instead of standing there and then despawning as the lootrunner breaks a chest and runs away?

[shy horizon]

and yes big dmg big cd is worse than low dmg low cd

[leaden bridge]

What did warlock do...

Unless its inferno lock

[tulip sky]

inferno i think

[leaden bridge]

That's so scary...

[shy horizon]

why do you think dragon eye is a rare when mycosis is an epic?

[hard saffron]

is inferno lock even real anymore

[jade onyx]

its more like opportunity cost

[upper root]

inferno lock is blessed when you compare it to chest clicking

[warped dome]

obviously you get hit lootrunning, and no there isnt a magical despawn mobs button that lootrunners have

[mossy sigil]

another planned build... should i be worried about dots being murdered...

[tulip sky]

i thought infernolock isnt good tbh

[leaden bridge]

Inferno lock has already exploded a looong while ago

[upper root]

it isn't anymore

[leaden bridge]

It works probably

Not on a caliber of this discussion though

[jade onyx]

oh, so lootrunners are stopping to kill mobs then after they get hit

[tulip sky]

ok to be fair about shield wall

i dont think sploofie was getting a lot of kills from that

[mossy sigil]

noooo dont touch my baby shield wall

[tulip sky]

so if you need to kill the mobs to drop loot

guardian can stay i think

[jade onyx]

explodes your everlasting hallucination with mind

[hard saffron]

is it just not one charm that make shield wall dumb

[mossy sigil]

explodes your eardrums with shield wall procs in rush

[hard saffron]

just nerf that

[jade onyx]

i think so

[hard saffron]

so its not 100% uptime

ez fix

[jade onyx]

why does this have damage

2* btw

[mossy sigil]

WOAH

[hard saffron]

wow that is

[jade onyx]

250% damage, -20% radius equivalent pretty much

[hard saffron]

a charm

[mossy sigil]

im looking forward to r3

i love running into 10 mobs and hearing non-stop procs

[leaden bridge]

It's a really strong charm

[jade onyx]

its always a good sign when a charm has +3 bajillion damage or -700% cooldown those are always great skills

[leaden bridge]

Scarily strong..

[hard saffron]

warrior charms vs warlock 🙁

[tulip sky]

isnt the uptime the same because the duration nerf

[jade onyx]

y u p

[ember grove]

yeah, ,until everlasting hallucination gets involved

then things get silly

[leaden bridge]

Just use everlasting and it becomes

[jade onyx]

if only there was a charm to increase the duration oh wait

[leaden bridge]

Yeah

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1222108295582584832/1312727718898696233/1150249187326312508-1.gif

[ember grove]

anyway off topic jumpscare

[warped dome]

like ive said already the parts where you are stopping to kill mobs isnt passive clearing so obviously that isnt comparable to lootrunning
i dont care about your specific playstyle im talking about any form of passive clear which includes 100% of the damage your thorns and reflection does

[upper root]

I think when a player has to build around defeating the suggested clear reqs (that aren't enforced as of now), its better than when players build to ignore the suggested clear reqs. Once suggested clear reqs become solid clear reqs, we can decide, in that paradigm, whether or not some playstyles are too good

you want too much all at once I think

[mossy sigil]

i think clearing spawners for additional loot in the endroom would be a simple and good start no?

someone mentioned that

[warped dome]

then you just mine spawners in addition to chests

[mossy sigil]

yes

[upper root]

its true

[leaden bridge]

One goal post closer

[mossy sigil]

isnt that the problem i thought

[leaden bridge]

[warped dome]

nothing changes

[jade onyx]

#suggestions-voting

[jade onyx]

oh no, now they have to do the content, its the same

[warped dome]

not for the complaint that lootrunning is boring/not interacting with the mobs

[mossy sigil]

ppl zooming around at mach 5 skipping all mobs and spawners i thought was the issue no?

[upper root]

it is somewhat better but it still leaves obvious places for improvement

[warped dome]

right cause mining spawners is the content

[jade onyx]

so its the same as just chests?

[warped dome]

i love my cosmetic atmospheric boss fights between my spawner mining sessions

[warped dome]

both are mining a block yes

[hard saffron]

he said its a start

not a fix

[jade onyx]

sigh

[warped dome]

what is the start

[jade onyx]

spawners give loot

[warped dome]

mining a block -> mining a block

[upper root]

I think you are trolling at this point Im gonna be honest

its good bait to be fair

[warped dome]

do you not consider cz lootrunning lootrunning?

[leaden bridge]

NO cz is scary brah

[jade onyx]

yeah tbh you're being much too reductive to be serious

[leaden bridge]

All of this is assuming cz is out of mind

[shy horizon]

is our topic on forcing lr players to mine spawners

[upper root]

it looks like reductionist parody to me

[hard saffron]

there still has to be something to give incentive to kill mobs and just KILL all dot play styles 🙂

[shy horizon]

if yes then sure youve created zenith 2.0

[tulip sky]

i dont think forcing engagement with spawners is the solution

[warped dome]

its not

[tulip sky]

mobs > spawners

[warped dome]

spawners dont matter

[leaden bridge]

They do they make the lr experience miserable

[warped dome]

mining a spawner is LITERALLY the same as mining a chest

[hard saffron]

ok remove spawners

boom

[warped dome]

yes sure thats a real change

[shy horizon]

make mobs come from nothing lik mr snipers

[tulip sky]

honestly how like every action game works i think

[leaden bridge]

It's an interesting idea its kinda scary

[upper root]

Im not sure if this is feasible

[leaden bridge]

Think of the pickaxe balancing

[tulip sky]

well the implementation is the one-wave decay spawner

[leaden bridge]

My earthshaker... my pureshard adze...

[shy horizon]

i mean why are devs crying about lr when they singlehandedly created a whole build that fits lr so much

[vast blaze]

adding anti lr to mining spawners