Feedback for the August 2025 Balance Patch

[upbeat fog]

my point was that its stupid to describe a situational in a way that acts like you wont end up in an "oh shit my ehp is gone" scenario but thats a good one too

[granite river]

well im not saying it doesnt have downtime

im saying you can minimize downtime if you can manage well

its downsides are obviously still there

[upbeat fog]

but im just gonna say this again, I dont want guard to have any absurd uptime or anything, i just feel like 35% as a threshold both discourages using it if you're not always the most situationally aware, and encourgaes stacking a lot of guard, which is only an issue because this update was supposed to discourage situ stacking

"hey guys, this update is supposed to push you away from stacking situtionals, the best way to play guard is to stack it as much as possible to have terrible non-guard ehp so almost any hit will proc it's secondary effect, which applies retroactively"
like, do you see what i mean?

[granite river]

i see it but i think you might be reading a bit too much as well

its a nice bonus and not the sole encouraging factor

[hearty torrent]

its kind of just extra leniency to builds that have less EHP

[granite coral]

Insane buildcrafting right here

[slate pasture]

yeah honestly it's much more fit for magic classes

it is very doodoo with melee

and i only beta tested it with magic...

[upbeat fog]

the average guard build nets like 120 ehp across the board without guard
an enemy with 30 base damage will do a quarter of that without proccing the secondary

[slate pasture]

(especially arcanist and it hits 4000 times per second)

[hearty torrent]

soo in any delve that 30 base damage mob would then proc the secondary

or in a more realistic scenario

most mage that you fail to block would proc the secondary

[upbeat fog]

sorry my brain is melted
A mob that hits you for 30 damage*

[hearty torrent]

do you really expect them to lower the theshold that low?

[upbeat fog]

im in a call with 3 friends watching happy gilmore bite me for saying something a bit wrong

anyways here let me get the exact value for a 120ehp build (which is actually a bit generous for a guard build imo)

42 give or take some since it wont be exactly 120

42 is the rough minimum damage needed to proc the secondary effect if you have 120 ehp across the board before guard

40 damage, which wouldnt proc it, 5-taps a player who has 200 ehp across the board. It is not some absurdly low number.

just for you, I'll tap the sign

a hit that significantly hurts but isnt 35% of your health, even in delved content, is not some once in a blue moon occurrence

maybe im the idiot for seeing the secondary effect as just as much of a "your shield is broken mid fight but you can still proc guard" as it is a safety net for something like a stray spectre or even shade hound bitch-slapping you when you're off guard and/or outside of heavy combat

[wary reef]

I think the health threshold thing wasn't meant to be a giga buff to guard just a nice addition, I think its fine as is

[hearty torrent]

MR mobs deal 40-50 dmg at base

same for magic attacks

most mobs have 30 base damage, so delved that can easily reach higher than 42

and the standard should not be it activating on 50% of hits

[upbeat fog]

yeah but mr is upside down and spinning
i cant remember by who but that place was looked at and the dev had to ask "who the hell upscaled these guys to olympus"

[hearty torrent]

ok but then you agree that the 35% would be sufficient to give lower EHP builds with guard in MR some leniency in what attacks they fail to react to?

[upbeat fog]

also last I checked you'd need to be doing some seriously high delve points for a 30 damage enemy to be scaled the 40% needed to be doing 42 damage

[upbeat fog]

no, i literally said that somewhere more like 30% would be more effective at actually encouraging guard usage

[hearty torrent]

any buff to the threshold would encourage guard usage

[fleet lava]

14pt

[upbeat fog]

oh wait thats right damage scales the hardest

[hearty torrent]

don't forget any vengful, arcanic and or mob with carapace

[upbeat fog]

its what, 1.75x on 25pt vs the health and speed being 1.5 and 1.25

[granite coral]

LMFAOO

[upbeat fog]

wait no the health is only 1.3 and the speed is 1.1

damage just gets scaled to hell????

[granite coral]

pack it up gng

[upbeat fog]

actually wait LMAO that still means the average joe who runs 12pt wouldnt be getting the secondary

[granite river]

also less magic to block so probably fine in that case

or not block

[upbeat fog]

true but really my point was never centered around the magic stuff

like i did bring it up

but my bigger point was that a stray hit could just bite off a quarter of your health

i honestly just think that 30%, being just below a 3rd rather than above, would be better

[agile basalt]

25 base

[upbeat fog]

LMAO

Is it really that high?

I remember it being like 20, is it actually 25?

[agile basalt]

regulated cogblade + emerald ascension?

[upbeat fog]

Gratz
Thats significantly worse than a 1.6 sword and wastes charm power as a result 😭

Cogblade is NOT r3 lotd
It is not a sleeper pick

[agile basalt]

it was 20 with sturdy 4/5

iirc

[upbeat fog]

Wild

Anyways its 3:30 am im gonna go pass out

[thorny jolt]

tried out a bit of the new r3 paladin! love the javelin mobility

i have played with the new dj(u) and imo its nicer than the last one. but, idk if it's just me being stupid but it feels like counting my crits to optimise when i should do dmg skills is a bit hard to do when i'm already thinking about other things, it would be nice if there was some kind of visual or audio cue for at least when it triggers (or if there is already one, would love for it to be more a bit more obvious pls !)

[peak tangle]

honestly on steadfast, guard's secondary effect is a nice and fairly consistent proc on high health which is cute

neat little thing

[agile basalt]

@dense reef can we force sync the DJ third hit cosmetic to DJ u

[dense reef]

This is already the case actually

[agile basalt]

oh

wonderful

[dense reef]

They use the same combo counter

[agile basalt]

so the indicator is just that

[dense reef]

So there are both audio and visual cues

Well cosmeticless only has audio

[green mortar]

can yall make collosal brute force actually work with extra bf waves

rn it just does tree slashes on one side

[ivory mantle]

Cleric works very nicely in intruder

[forest flicker]

can we have active max stack luminous infusion trigger

[dense reef]

I will add that for next week

[agile basalt]

i have a sneaking mathematical suspicion that you're better off building for attack damage and neglecting magic if you just want to max out your solo DPS

although i might be Wrong

[agile basalt]

• Frenzy (u) uses the PercentDamageDealtSingle effect, might be able to change that to take the EnumSet of MELEE and MELEE_ENCH, but not sure if the effect lasts the whole tick or kills itself immediately
• Counter Strikes are only popped by MELEE damage, change to MELEE and MELEE_ENCH?
• Weapon Mastery adds its damage as flat unmodifiable damage, could code together a jank specification within the WM calc itself, or could rework WM
• Challenge is probably just correct as-is
• Riposte 2 (Sword) needs to be modified to pop on MELEE and MELEE_ENCH and delay its cancellation to the next tick

does warrior have any more damage skills (other than BF cause BF isn't sweepin)

[bitter pine]

negative defense guard item 🗣️

[ivory mantle]

I believe this is true (hexfall heiro gear #trading-and-offers message)

[hearty torrent]

any dev going to explain the reason behind situational stacking change?

[upbeat fog]

no, cs, frenzy(e), wm, rip2, and challenge should be the only ones. none of berserker's kit buffs damage, wall and bg dont, and toughness/bash/dline/bf arent applicable

[upbeat fog]

It was broken. Fundamentally. Situational stacking was the root of most broken builds.

[bitter pine]

casual 330% ehp

[upbeat fog]

stacking eth, poise, and in cases like bosses, cloaked
Would make you borderline immortal

[bitter pine]

for the cost of [getting hit once] or [taking the same type of damage]

or [taking enough damage]

it is not hard to do several situationals and the rewards are stupid

[upbeat fog]

this too. It was rather easy to stack up like 3 situs and just have cracked ehp in most scenarios

armor wasnt the best for r2 scout before, but its also just a lie to not admit that vehemence had a chokehold because just 2 levels of evasion is that strong

3 with the BiS agi boots, Lstorm

which was just a given

[bitter pine]

casual uhhhh yeah

[wary reef]

[hearty torrent]

Hoping the devs who thought of this change didn't have as simple of an analysis as you guys

[wary reef]

I'll be honest its not that deep

these changes were kinda necessary at some point

[bitter pine]

the analysis is simple because the problem is simple

exponential scaling on ehp is stupid

[upbeat fog]

BiS proj for r3? evasion 2, tempo 1 reflexes 1

[upbeat fog]

also yeah this

it really isnt deep

it absolutely was just "stacking situationals is bad for balance overall"

[wary reef]

you can still very much stack situationals but you won't be immortal doing so

[upbeat fog]

it choked build diversity because in 99% of cases, just pumping your ehp with a few situs was the best option

[upbeat fog]

also, this

[granite eagle]

Now I stack raw armor and prot so I become immortal again !

[upbeat fog]

its not like you cant stack them, you just wont see such godless results

[granite eagle]

WHATD I DO

[hearty torrent]

where do I even start to address any of these points

[bitter pine]

just explain why you think it is healthy first

[hearty torrent]

wouldn't exactly say its healthy, but I feel that the way its been changed was horrible

[hearty torrent]

like if you're going to solve it in such a simple way, it'll just cause a bunch unintended changes

[wary reef]

unintended changes like?

[hearty torrent]

well for one

using at least 1 situational is now better relative to no situational

depending on the item you've used before, it might even be a lot better

[peak tangle]

tbh on guardian the situational stacking imo helped give it a bit more identity and purpose for r3

it's not like it's gone suddenly, but i find myself pigeonholed a bit now

[hearty torrent]

let me just address the most common and dumbest point people make

[hearty torrent]

this means nothing

just pointing at the 334.75% number means nothing

and if someone who's in charge of balance makes balance decisions based on that, then I really want to hear their reasoning

[peak tangle]

so what's this point?

[hearty torrent]

its just people pointing at the very high ehp increase

[peak tangle]

oh

[hearty torrent]

I mean you see it all the time

[bitter pine]

wdym?
a situational is not always active

[peak tangle]

i think in some sense i sorta agree but idk i'm not sure how to feel

[bitter pine]

so it still depends on build

and how you play

[peak tangle]

the ehp increase could potentially be stupid, and there were several strong builds that used that as leverage

[hearty torrent]

ill probably go in to it deeper on why I think it doesnt deserve this type of change and how theres better alternative changes

[peak tangle]

but i think a lot of stuff didn't as well

[hearty torrent]

but I don't want to be typing it all out in to nothing

[bitter pine]

alr

I still think being able to get that high of ehp for something as simple as getting hit is stupid though

[upbeat fog]

so wait
stacking situationals being worse while individual/lower levels of situs giving you more mileage when they are active
is bad

[hearty torrent]

I agree, my point is that theres better ways to balance that

[peak tangle]

for me i sorta lean on the argument of "what inherent benefit was being that tanky was there for most cases?"

[granite eagle]

The ehp increase is pretty silly when stacking but my question is why did R2 get hit more than R3 if its the main source of the situ stacking (imo, atleast)

[upbeat fog]

yeah that did kinda confuse me too

[bitter pine]

I think mostly because region scaling was added

[granite eagle]

Probably what they meant by unintended changes

[bitter pine]

it used to be 20/30/30 cap right?

[peak tangle]

yea

[bitter pine]

or 24

[upbeat fog]

actually this makes sense, r3 situs have a higher ceiling now

[bitter pine]

I forgor

[peak tangle]

20

[bitter pine]

Now it's 20/30/36

[upbeat fog]

20/30/30 now 20/30/36 yeah

[granite eagle]

I'm judging based on the full image of this but I could be very wrong so who snows

[bitter pine]

r2 was not made higher but r3 was

[wary reef]

just wanna point out that this number does mean something, its to prevent extreme cases and possible future proofing. Furthermore reduce the strength of situational stacking builds as they tend to overpeform in many cases

[peak tangle]

i suppose now that i think about it

[hearty torrent]

the standalone number means nothing

[peak tangle]

the berserker slop build kinda did have like uh

[bitter pine]

i think it means quite a bit?

[peak tangle]

at least 4 situationals

[bitter pine]

not The number but the scaling

how it exponentially gives more and more

[hearty torrent]

sure it shows you how much of an ehp increase you can get, but if you base everything around just that number, you shouldn't even be discussing balance

[bitter pine]

pretty sure you can hit poise 7 now?

[peak tangle]

i think uh

cat you should prob continue when you have other points to address

[upbeat fog]

yeah saying "that number means nothing" is fundamentally just incorrect, it does mean something, for example, in stuff like hunts:
Monumenta Builder

[wary reef]

even at 4 situationals the scaling starts getting out of hand imo

[peak tangle]

bc realistically i think most people understand the difference between pointing out a big number vs the impact that number had on the game

like i don't think there's people silly enough that actually wanna have this discussion being like "hur dur big number bad"

idk

[upbeat fog]

also see poise guardian in intruder where there isnt much to just break through your hp

[peak tangle]

yea poise and steadfast guardian got kinda smacked by the change

which tbh i don't think is really warranted because these were never insanely performative in clear

[wary reef]

also I mentioned "future proofing" by this I mean, at some point we probably would hit a wall where we couldn't really add more items with situationals due to exponential scaling, now that it doesn't scaling exponentially, we don't have to worry about it as much.

[peak tangle]

my steadfast 10 build in question

[granite fjord]

Could Blighted Path get its Tempo back now, then?

[peak tangle]

i get the future proofing moreso for wanting to make taking damage more impactful and valuable of a trait down the line

[wary reef]

that too

[pine kettle]

still waiting to see any sort of constructive suggestions for improvements or justification for the previous iteration of situationals

[hearty torrent]

@wary reef question as to what you see in that image

[peak tangle]

so i think it's honestly for the best, even if it does negatively impact something i liked to play a lot

[bitter pine]

like, here is a build that I made in two minutes

this is poise guardian with zero absorption

[wary reef]

how much your ehp can scale with situationals?

[hearty torrent]

when we have the 334% ehp increase, what do you see as the alternative where you don't build those situationals?

[peak tangle]

okay tbf this is exactly what cat is talking about and i'm trying to defend him 😭

or at least

understand the logic

maybe not entirely defend

[hearty torrent]

like what EHP amount relative to the 334%

[bitter pine]

im just pointing out that exponential scaling gets very out of hand

[granite eagle]

GET WITHERED GET WITHERED

[wary reef]

I'm not only talking about that 334% boost, it already gets bit out of hand at 4 situationals

[peak tangle]

showing a bunch of out of context numbers doesn't really convince me

and it never has.

[hearty torrent]

yes but I'm asking if you get 6 situationals and increase your EHP by 335%, what is that relative to

[bitter pine]

??

[wary reef]

I don't really understand your point

I'm gonna be real

[bitter pine]

to the base ehp...?

[thorny jolt]

wtf r these with old situs

[bitter pine]

this is with old

i assume

[thorny jolt]

DAMN

[bitter pine]

idk what otm is using rn but it feels like old

[peak tangle]

yea you could just get really fat if you wanted to neuter your damage

but even more balanced builds were able to get fairly chonky

and dmg infusions exist to help with that anyway

[hearty torrent]

ok so situational stacking is supposedly super broken because of this type of exponential increase, and what I'm asking is, do you actually register 6 situationals being active as a 334% EHP increase or something else?

[peak tangle]

are you trying to get at something out of the scope of this hypothetical "you have 6 situationals at once active"?

like maybe opportunity cost?

[hearty torrent]

no I'm trying to understand his way of thinking regarding that image

[peak tangle]

tbh i'm not sure how relevant focusing on the image is

[bitter pine]

to be honest I think you are the one focusing too much on a single data value
i posted it to show the scalings with each situational

[wary reef]

the image just kinda shows how broken the scaling can get, I don't think about it too much

[hearty torrent]

its not all that relavant in the grand scheme of things

[bitter pine]

at four it is already wild

at six it is near lunacy

[peak tangle]

i suppose we can move on then

if it isn't important

like you said

or implied anyway

[hearty torrent]

ok ill just stop being cryptic

[wary reef]

situational stacking itself kinda has proofed to be broken for a long time, making it not scale exponentially makes it less problematic

[hearty torrent]

the 334.75% EHP is more similar to a ~100% increase

[wary reef]

you've been talking about there being better solutions for this problem, but you haven't mentioned any
if you have any ideas just share them

[hearty torrent]

because you're always looking at relative to what EHP you would have if you didn't use all your budget on situational EHP

[peak tangle]

okay so

it is opportunity cost

[hearty torrent]

regarding what I was asking uurik yes

[bitter pine]

okay I made a build with zero situationals and the highest tankiness I could find, pretty much

[peak tangle]

yeah i feel like you coulda started with that

[hearty torrent]

becuase I feel like that should be obvious to him if hes even talking about this

[hearty torrent]

hard to know where I should start because in all honestly I have to first argue for things that aren't even related to my main point

my main point being that I think the way to balance situational stacking could have been done way better

[peak tangle]

i mean yea i think situational stacking has always felt more appealing to me personally, but even still getting like 4+ felt like there was significant opportunity costs

[hearty torrent]

by adding caveats to easily abusable situationals

[peak tangle]

and success in this game isn't really measured by having 1000ehp

usually..

[hearty torrent]

I mean even if we go by example

even if

[thorny jolt]

but doesnt this show that it's not just a ~100% ehp increase though? it's reaching absurd numbers by focusing on poise

[hearty torrent]

why does literally every class not use situationals then?

[peak tangle]

hm?

[hearty torrent]

the only class where people exclaimed situational stacking to be broken on was bers

[thorny jolt]

what

[bitter pine]

what

no????

[peak tangle]

i've seen a lot of cases outside of warrior tbf

i can think of it on pretty much everything

maybe not like harb>

[bitter pine]

scout, cloakflexes, ethereal, steadfast,

poise

tempthereal

[peak tangle]

even scout i saw a pretty solid stack build

[wary reef]

what..? far from it, theres a lot more classes its broken or itching that

[peak tangle]

though i don't think it had the absolute best clear

[hearty torrent]

those aren't really situational stacking

[bitter pine]

????????

ok the mixes are less so but still

[hearty torrent]

ok I guess I should specifiy then that building 2 opposite situationals isn't situational stacking

because they literally cant both be active at once

I mean where you only stack 1 situational

[bitter pine]

people were building multiple levels of non-conflicting situationals all the time

[peak tangle]

i think it can be seen under the lens of being an issue that was intended to be addressed all the same however

[bitter pine]

not just warrior

[hearty torrent]

stuff like ethereal stacking, which is only a thing on tcleric ( easily could be given extra steps to fix that being an issues )

[bitter pine]

warrior is maybe the standout

[peak tangle]

i think warrior does it best

and has since the item rework released

[bitter pine]

ethereal is not just a problem on tcleric sob

[hearty torrent]

steadfast stacking in CZ rush builds ( also easily fixable throught a different approach )

[wary reef]

thats like just bandaiding the whole issue

[bitter pine]

literally any class that gets hit often

[pallid ravine]

gut tcleric

[wary reef]

we aren't looking for bandaid solutions here

[pallid ravine]

Why? Yes

[hearty torrent]

literallly everything is

[bitter pine]

ominous bell in four weeks

[wary reef]

ok but if everything else is, then why should this be too?

[hearty torrent]

to me this looks worse than a bandaid fix because it creates other issues

[bitter pine]

is the recent update a "bandaid" do you think

i think it pretty neatly cut out the problem, cauterization can come later

[hearty torrent]

I don't think I want to focus on that point right now

[peak tangle]

the classic dilemma of "make a change that makes the future balance for this game healthier" versus "this decision in this exact moment in time has unintended negative consequences, and i do not desire the direction of balance to change"

personally i'm for the former usually

[bitter pine]

okay then what do you want to talk about if it is not the issue we are discussing

[hearty torrent]

anyways what classes were situational stacking consistently

only common example I know is warrior

everything else was niche builds

[upbeat fog]

this is do agree with tbh, it just has to kit to profit from situs. Bg for poise, toughness enhance and/or rampage for inure, steadwind and ethereal

[bitter pine]

scout runs various situationals including tempo and evasion
ethereal is on any bruiser including warrior, pala, and reaper

poise on any absorption class

steadfast for cz in general

[hearty torrent]

should specifify, to achieve greater than normal performance

[bitter pine]

second wind + steadfast for just straight up any class to become a wall

[wary reef]

mage, scout (in r2 atleast), lootrunning in general just to name a few

[upbeat fog]

basically every bruiser class ran ethereal, poise alch was pretty violent in the past, tempo/evasion scout had a chokehold on things

[bitter pine]

pairs better with tankier classes sure, but its still a thing

[hearty torrent]

I'm asking stacking

[upbeat fog]

like dumplig said steadwind is just there

[bitter pine]

reflexes, which was changed in a different way but was still blatantly overpowered in almost any content

[hearty torrent]

not what situationals might work better with certain classes/specs

[bitter pine]

particularly any content with mobs such as ROD

i am telling you classes that i know to use these situationals

[peak tangle]

idk how common it was to stack 4+ non mutually exclusive situationals on anything that wasn't warrior or like reaper

or like you said- weird niche builds

[wary reef]

swordsage

[hearty torrent]

yes I want example like this

[upbeat fog]

so you're asking what situs were op in a classless vacuum that was never seen?
you cant ask "what situ builds were used to better effect than generic builds" and then ignore the class side of things, its fundamentally the classes that enable the situs to shine

[hearty torrent]

where was there an obvious increase in performance when doing so

[upbeat fog]

oh yeah reflexes tene

[wary reef]

even if there is not right now, it could be in the future, hence I've been keep mentioning future proofing

[hearty torrent]

no need to focus on that right now

we can go 1 question at a time

[peak tangle]

this is the main thing for me

[upbeat fog]

also yeah uurik's future proofing point has been something I feel like people have overlooked a lot here

[peak tangle]

of course

your question is kinda hard to answer anyways

because define "performance"

something this entire community struggles with

[bitter pine]

what do you mean by performance yeah

[peak tangle]

it's not easy for anyone to answer

[bitter pine]

speed? lifespan?

[upbeat fog]

also yeah, this
the cloaked build i sent earlier wasnt overall better than other builds, but it still was exceedingly powerful in hunts

[bitter pine]

clearing speed?

[hearty torrent]

ok so far I've seen:
-berserker stacking some number of random situationals,
-reflexes in ROD
-steadwind in CZ
anything else?

[upbeat fog]

...

[bitter pine]

scout
ethereal stack
poise

[hearty torrent]

I mean where it is objectively better

[peak tangle]

i think guardian was at it's best with it too

[bitter pine]

...

[peak tangle]

outside of like boss dps

[upbeat fog]

poise guard up there too

[bitter pine]

scout, ethereal stack, poise.

[wary reef]

the whole existance of thorns cleric 👽

[hearty torrent]

as in its way better that way or its a niche build that exists?

[bitter pine]

you cannot just say objectively better because if a build is objectively better in region 3 something is pretty wrong I would say

[peak tangle]

i think we need to first try to define "objectively better"

before throwing out examples

[bitter pine]

objectively better by a SIGNIFICANT margin may I add

[upbeat fog]

it was a disgusting build that could absolutely eat even high-pt pois without a care because you have near-permanent uptime of poise with bodyguard

[bitter pine]

the nefarious -85% cdr

[pallid ravine]

i'm pretty sure you could get 100% uptime

[wary reef]

poise shaman was also a thing... might still be

[peak tangle]

ugh

shaman..

[bitter pine]

i think it still is

[pallid ravine]

hell for poise guardian, 3 poise is effulgent, and knucklebones

[bitter pine]

stupid good healing + infrequent hits

[hearty torrent]

for afking or general clear?

[upbeat fog]

poise was so gross that I was able to make a build abusing knucklebones that also stacked up ethereal, steadfast, and swind 2

[bitter pine]

if you were comitting to the bit you could pretty easily get 6-7 poise

[upbeat fog]

granted it kinda fell off after the attack speed changes

[bitter pine]

is that stupider? yeah, probably, but you'll never die either

[peak tangle]

i think i'd define something being "objectively better" as having at least the fastest consistent clear speed of given content (where applicable)

because at the end of the day, the rate at which you can complete content is the end all be all when speaking obectively i feel

[bitter pine]

Okay
so the fastest clear is BIS, argument solved

[pallid ravine]

@bitter pine not even sure it works but its funny Monumenta Builder

[wary reef]

I also wanna note that making situationals not stack exponentially, is one of the easiest ways to nerf lootrunning and thorns cleric without completely screwing over others 🫃

[peak tangle]

i don't think this is necessarily true

in most cases

my metric can be flawed as well, because stuff like movement speed is a large factor

[pallid ravine]

hm

[peak tangle]

at the same time, there are lots of cases where defensive leverage causes you to waste less time performing a task

so even then, this metric is hard to see clearly

[bitter pine]

correct

[upbeat fog]

i feel like its more mesaured by how fast you can comfortably clear (i.e a Ratio(i guess?) of clear speed to "oh shit" moments where you need to run away and heal, or die.

[bitter pine]

objectively better is an impossible statement

in r3, at least (I hope.)

[hearty torrent]

running situationals for lootrunning isn't that effective

[bitter pine]

???????

[upbeat fog]

?

[bitter pine]

w h a t

this is the second ??? statement so far

[peak tangle]

i'd maybe say practically impossible/unrealistic if i'm being semantic

[bitter pine]

sure

[upbeat fog]

outside of obvious cases (i.e upgraded items) i agree with this

[peak tangle]

even going by the gist of it though, i wonder how often "situational stacking" builds really cleared that line

or at least

cat is wondering

[hearty torrent]

you'd mainly just focus on building speed, and the tank items you built because of it already make you tanky enough

[upbeat fog]

often enough for them to recognized as a problem

[pallid ravine]

you didn't even need to build speed

[upbeat fog]

by (id like to think) the wider portion of the community

[pallid ravine]

considering situ stacked items made you that tanky

[hearty torrent]

why would you not build speed for lootrunning

[pallid ravine]

you didn't have to build nearly that much speed

[hearty torrent]

you're not struggling in lootrunning because you're not tanky enough

[peak tangle]

i'm not really sure personally

[bitter pine]

you do, but you do not need to if that makes sense

[thorny jolt]

Havent been following the discussion much but i remember seeing mentions of other alternative approaches to the current changes to situs - what has been proposed so far?

[bitter pine]

socat can you at least agree that, for the intent of surviving in a piece of content, situational stacking was a problem

[pallid ravine]

these for instance

[peak tangle]

haven't quite got there yet

[thorny jolt]

ah aight tyvm

[bitter pine]

and it is better to situational stack 99% of the time instead of something else

[upbeat fog]

idk, reflexes tene was just accepted as "rod becomes a joke", ethereal bers/cleric were known to basically be walls, same for poise guardian, poise alch was a bit of a menace in it's prime and it was nerfs to alch that hurt it, steadwind is steadwind, BiS agi had a chokehold in both r2 and r3 because just building evasion alone made scout immortal with positioning

[wary reef]

rod is kinda cooked with reflexes rework

[hearty torrent]

I agree for a certain pieces of content

[upbeat fog]

yeahhh

[bitter pine]

i think we are just waiting on lb reset + rod rework

[peak tangle]

i'll probably kinda trust it since even i've always leaned toward it

[pallid ravine]

ok for the not building speed argument

[bitter pine]

by the way what is your suggestion to make it better

[pallid ravine]

this only made you only really need 1, maybe 2 pieces with speed

[peak tangle]

and tbh a lot of devs i'd notice playing tend to run some odd builds someimes, that came off weak?

surprise- almost never situationals

[wary reef]

HEY I make my own builds, not running buzzlight year 🫃

[hearty torrent]

won't be going through that yet because I feel like there's other stuff I'd want to get through first

[peak tangle]

mkay so where are we at?

[hearty torrent]

like there's scenarios where situationals are objectively better

[upbeat fog]

also i disagree that it "could've been done better" for 2 reasons

1. the change gives players more mileage out of lower levels of situationals, while punishing using too many, which i feel is healthy if anything
2. the update just dropped two days ago. Like Dumpling said, "its pretty neatly cut out the problem, cauterization can come later". Tweaks can be made in the coming weeks to stabilize things

[hearty torrent]

but as far as I see it, stacking situationals outside of that isn't effective in general gameplay

[bitter pine]

okay, well, so there's no problem then?

[upbeat fog]

this is just "situationals are good in situations" what

[bitter pine]

because that was barely changed?

[upbeat fog]

the whole idea of situationals
is that they make you objectively stronger when played to their strengths

[bitter pine]

if you actually look at the graph instead of focusing on the big number you will see that level 1-2 of situationals were barely changed

[pallid ravine]

only started being a big impact on 4 or higher active

[bitter pine]

the biggest change is r2, with like ~8% ehp loss

at level 2

with 3 situs? ~18%

and this is all assuming ZERO item changes were made... which we are pretty much waiting on anyways

[hearty torrent]

no you'd see that most r3 items with situationals got an EHP increase of 2.25%-10%

[bitter pine]

okay... is that a problem? the situationals are weaker now?

[hearty torrent]

situational stacking is weaker

[bitter pine]

this nerf is targetting situational stacking

[upbeat fog]

yes the idea is not to make situationals worse, its to discourage stacking them

[bitter pine]

yes...?

[thorny jolt]

r u saying the issue is more about the item balance than the situs themselves then?

[hearty torrent]

but because of that, the situationals individually got buffed

[bitter pine]

is that a problem.

[upbeat fog]

and that is a problem why??

[bitter pine]

the point is to discourage high highs

[granite fjord]

Except Inure. Because fuck Inure.

[bitter pine]

it does not matter if the lows get higher

that is not the point of the rework

[hearty torrent]

if I were to maybe think situational stacking could have been fixed without this buff to everything else situational related, then yes it would be a problem ( for me )

[upbeat fog]

#FreeInure
give my boy his 50% clause back 😭

[wary reef]

I think inure was kinda gutted too hard

[upbeat fog]

inure was lowk inoffensive and just got shot

[bitter pine]

Okay, then I think we're at a good point - how would you have fixed it in a different way so that nothing else changes?

[hearty torrent]

still rather focus on different points for now

[bitter pine]

Then don't bring up that it "could have been fixed without this buff to everything else situational related"

[hearty torrent]

because we likely don't even agree on that

so why move on to the next thing

[bitter pine]

I don't know if we do or not, because I don't know your idea!

[peak tangle]

let him cook?

[bitter pine]

but alright.

what do you want to discuss then

[peak tangle]

tbh i'm curious about seeing this whole vision of yours laid out

[hearty torrent]

no point in me selling you the idea, if you don't even believe in the issues I believe

[peak tangle]

i think that isn't a good way to look at arguments

[hearty torrent]

ill probably just do it in a seperate feedback post so I have a lot of room to think how to word stuff

[peak tangle]

and it doesn't look great either..

[bitter pine]

Okay, fine
what do you want to discuss then

[wary reef]

I'm not really sure how you would go about solving situational stacking any other way than the way it was done without fucking over other builds

[upbeat fog]

this is just avoiding the issue dawg, a literal logical fallacy

[hearty torrent]

its moving to the solution before agreeing on the issues....

[peak tangle]

i think it could have been more narrowed in scope with far more specific and targetted fixes

[hearty torrent]

why do you think that would get anything done

[peak tangle]

which are literally band-aid fixes

[upbeat fog]

you argue that there are better ways to have changed situs, but any time someone asks you to elaborate on even one of those better ways, you sidestep

[peak tangle]

i don't think the "solution" counts as a point

[upbeat fog]

what "other issues" are left then? we've gone off on just about every tangentially related topic and come back to 'what would've been a better way'

[wary reef]

those would mostly likely just fuck over more things than this did, I haven't really seen any issues with the changes. It did what it was suppose to do, nerf situational stacking without fucking over other builds

[thorny jolt]

give us your idea. Then back it up afterwards pls

Watching the discussion unfold is like waiting for the next episode of a telenovela thats just edging you on when the mcs are gonna kiss dude, I would personally appreciate it more if you presented your point first then explained it afterwards instead of trudging through separate aspects of the issue via the spaced out messages here

[hearty torrent]

because if the fix involves keeping situational stacking intact, the person who thinks situational stacking is the most broken thing in the world, won't give it any thought

[bitter pine]

Okay, what is the fix that involves keeping the problem intact

that sounds like a very good fix to the problem if the problem is still there after

[peak tangle]

pr much

[peak tangle]

so i think we need to back it up a bit

and discuss and argue about why the stacking Wasn't an issue to begin with

because that's where this is heading

and i think there's been already talk of that before

[bitter pine]

Alright
I think it is patently very stupid how each level of situationals gives exponentially more EHP than the last for the same drawback

[peak tangle]

but maybe focusing a bit more on it could help?

[upbeat fog]

This is just poisoning the well, you're just saying that someone is incapable of looking over your argument and seeing your point of view

[bitter pine]

aka, it being "situational"

[peak tangle]

if i'm being honest, the more i read everything being discussed here and think about it myself, the more i feel comfortable with this change than i initially did

[hearty torrent]

why are you constantly stating debate stuff, its as simple as, "we first need to agree on the smaller points to begin to talk about the bigger picture"

[peak tangle]

we gotta see more points

[hearty torrent]

ye if someone thinks something isn't an issue and you propose stuff that solve that in the context of that being an issue, then we dont get anywhere

[peak tangle]

because so far they haven't agreed on any presented so far

[bitter pine]

You are the one constantly stating that you have a big solution that would both solve the issue of situational stacking while also not touching anything else except that

But fine,
for the third time, what do you want to discuss

i do think we've already went over most of it though

[wary reef]

🍿

[peak tangle]

it really, really just boils down to convincing people why stacking wasn't a problem

[upbeat fog]

because, simple as, this is, or at least has evolved into a debate? Just about everyone else's stance is "the update was a healthy step towards fixing the problem that was situational stacking" whereas you're saying "the update could've handled it better (while sidestepping whenever someone asks you to present a better way to have gone about it), and also situ stacking wasnt a problem"

[peak tangle]

and i think if the game was to remain stagnant in regards to balance for the forseeable future

like yeah you could make some great points on why it wasn't a big issue

at least a few

[upbeat fog]

like this wasnt the kindest way for me to say it
but i had no less blunt of a way to word it

[oak jacinth]

I know you just came up with this number off the top of your head, but dude that's still double and it's not like situ items don't also come with damage/speed stats

[upbeat fog]

Anyways i figure this is an infinitely better place to put it than suggestions

Given the fact that sweeping edge can now apply aspects and works on non-swords, maybe add 1-2 levels (or more in some cases tbh) to a handful of items that dedicate a large chunk of budget to aspects to give them a proper way to capitalize on those stats.

[bitter pine]

i mean, a few are a bit to get sweeping, but true

me when 3 block radius fire aspect 5 inferno 5

[upbeat fog]

thinking about it maybe quake items should be excluded given they have a way to spread aspects

[dire sedge]

is reflexes usable on slow melee weapons?

[upbeat fog]

probably not really

i've heard bad things

doom

[bitter pine]

i highly doubt it

[dire sedge]

I wonder if the duration of reflexes could be affected by some "attack speed modifier" so that if reflexes working on slower melee is a goal, that it wouldn't come at the cost of making fast melee overwhelmingly good with reflexes

[bitter pine]

bhop crit speed is just about reflexes

yeah I was thinking something similar

but honestly, I think its just better to be decaying dr over time

so that it's not melee only

[upbeat fog]

that actually sounds like a good idea ngl

lot better than "if you dont bhop, you dont get uptime"

[dire sedge]

for bhop melee reflexes seems to pair pretty well with tempo if you want a "just in case" idk
I like the new agility situational scenario on paper

[wary reef]

I think reflexes are cool

[dire sedge]

its so dope, it feels like a match made for swordsage

[bitter pine]

i like new reflexes I just think it is too inconsistent

[upbeat fog]

i dont hate the idea of dr on hit, its just that 0.67s makes it a really closed-off situ that not nearly as many classes can take advantage of

[wary reef]

rogue is kinda eating good with cloaked too

I think I would rate this monthly patch 8.65/10 👽

[upbeat fog]

yeah cloaked got just a sick buff tbh

[green mortar]

cloaked could replace reflexes on some items with no issue

[bitter pine]

ignited could be a replaced because ah yes inferno reflexes

i always want to get into crit range when using inferno

[upbeat fog]

going back to this, a few things

harmonic could seriously benefit from this, right now it kinda just get dropped for the first rare sword after pink... or not used in favor of a pre-pink sword, given that its inability to spread those aspects in a crowd makes it essentially a 10.5/1.6- barely better than the a t5, the brutal longsword.

phlog (and other quake items) probably should be excluded given as, like I said before, they have a way to spread aspects

anyways, while some of these are a bit iffy and more just spitballing, here are some other items from all 3 regions I feel like could seriously benefit from getting at least 1 level of sweeping edge

oh i never pasted it but uhh
add r1 prismatic blade to that list

really I guess it boils down to

If a melee weapon is just "solid stats, aspect for a bit of budget and flavor", i feel like it should have the ability to spread that aspect
-# this is doubly the case for items like amaranth blade, which is quite literally centered around fire aspect as a core stat

[granite fjord]

(in Molldyer's case you got Arcane Strike U, although it'd be funny to interpret Sweeping Edge on it as you just swinging that huge blazing stick around in wide arcs)

[bitter pine]

im wondering if it would be more balanced if sweeping transfered effects at a reduced ratio (like, 50+10% per level)

its 3 block radius around target yeah?

[upbeat fog]

as in duration?

[bitter pine]

duration would be good i suppose

[upbeat fog]

cause i dont see why that would be bad

[bitter pine]

it's not really, i suppose I'm just thinking of "wow that is like, a lot more targets than before"

[upbeat fog]

id actually say thats better

[granite fjord]

Does Sweeping Edge transfer Knockback, btw?

[upbeat fog]

i dont think its that big but idk

[upbeat fog]

actually
idk

[bitter pine]

yes

which is why extinction got it

[granite fjord]

awesome

[upbeat fog]

thats pretty cool

[bitter pine]

and why it was "reworked" (now custom)

https://tenor.com/view/bunny-rabbit-golf-hole-in-one-gif-821257481761453386

[granite fjord]

might try Thundering Legacy

and melee mage

[bitter pine]

now that knockback is custom, i wonder if astrike transfers it

[hearty torrent]

Ok yes, the actual number is 108.5% EHP increase, which is when they're all active, and you can also have non of them active, resulting in the build with no situationals having 108.5% more EHP. And we're talking about opportunity cost so any other stats like damage/speed would be accounted/irrelevant to the actual numbers.

[opaque zenith]

can we kill potion injector next

[opaque zenith]

it is kind of a stun machine if you just swing it

[upbeat fog]

but to elaborate on this, I have a some astral dummies on my plot, right?
⬜⬜🟧⬜⬜
🟥
roughly arranged like that?
if i swing and hit the red square dummy
⬜✅✅✅⬜
🟥
thats what a sweep was hitting
If im standing to the right of the red dummy, and swing at the orange one
⬜✅🟧✅⬜
✅
that was what I was hitting

at least thats what I remember from when I was just screwing around with telum yesterday

so overall, the aoe isnt absurd

like i dont know how exascerbated it gets in packed crowds, but in my "testing" you really only hit mobs on the blocks directly adjacent to your target

[bitter pine]

gotcha

[upbeat fog]

i still do agree that the (50+10*level)% duration isnt a bad idea

if anything it would pre-emptively help balance both existing and future aspect + sweeping edge items

[opaque zenith]

it is kind of tragic inferno got shot before 3rd enhance so i never got to use arcane u with it

[agile basalt]

HELLL nah

it’s (hitbox is the hitbox of target, expanded by 1 block in every X and Z direction and 0.25 blocks in every Y direction) AND (swept enemy’s hitbox must intersect with EITHER a 3 block radius sphere around the player’s head OR feet)

[agile basalt]

disagree on phlog since it already has the Quake but the others are a good point

[upbeat fog]

ash I said that phlog and other quake items should be excluded.
twice.

to hell with monu reading comprehension, maid reading comprehension moment

[agile basalt]

mb i just woke up and stared at individual messages without reading the whole thing

[upbeat fog]

the first time was right below the original message 😭

[granite eagle]

Just because something has an aspect doesnt mean it should be a potential candidate for sweeping edge (Particularly in the spitballing section, except for Smouldering I think)

Amaranth and Harmonic I do see the vision

[bitter pine]

So does punch work with explosive now

[tiny peak]

how bad is shielding 3 now

[placid iron]

~18% less in r3
~33% less in r2

[granite eagle]

Ok but ur foolish to run shielding 3

Eggs in one basket ahh build

[placid iron]

Yeah build some raw and prots instead and maybe go for 1 or 2 levels instead of 3

[bitter pine]

since it is ehp increase it's more like 18% r2 9% r3

[tiny peak]

im not trying too,, just a byproduct of other things i want on the armor pieces,,

[snow sun]

you'd think this was a pvp centered game considering how often balancing changes are made

[frank falcon]

It's honestly a big positive that monumenta is so dynamic in this way

I think its exceptional how many of these changes get implemented over time

The game changed a lot since i started playing and I can honestly say that it was for the better even if the changes were not always good at first

[granite river]

i think in a way it helps keep things interesting

even if thats not the goal

[snow sun]

really? for me it's the complete opposite, it's frustrating getting weaker every balance update even if I understand the reasons behind the changes

and looking back, player power has decreased so much I find monumenta from 2 years ago almost unrecognizable, not from big changes in one update per se, but the constant nerfs adding up over time

generalist charms, additive changes, pot extending, etc

[granite river]

okay using pot extending as a point is sort of silly i cant lie

thats more like bug abuse than anything actually player power related

[wary reef]

the power level for players still feels quite high

people out here breezing through 65 pts like its nothing

[snow sun]

relative to what it used to be I think it's night and day

[granite river]

I think to be fair only recently have we really been doing more buffs than nerfs so it has been more nerfs overall

especially with this one now to situationals

[snow sun]

in particular the quality of life changes are the most jarring to me when I talk about player "power", it's why I mentioned pot extending (I understand how it can be seen as a bug, I thought it was a clever interpretation of the ability desc), like for example the fire resistance changes, scout losing haste, rogue losing haste, or easy to use builds designed solely to clear mobs being gutted such as Blizzard (Urn of Perpetuity -> -200% damage) or spawner rushing with Supernova Mattock (with the removal of generalist charms + inferno nerfs)

other changes (like the removal of haste 2 potions for example, or the changes to axe attack speed) didn't quite kill some builds but made them extremely annoying to use, requiring the use of soulsinger, which limits you to 6 uses a day, or having to use both haste and attack speed potions

[ruby chasm]

[granite fjord]

(Urn got -65% locked Blizzard damage tho)

[opaque zenith]

54 damage inferno ticks deserved getting shot down to like 30

[wary reef]

I would like to comment on lootrunning but I will not comment on it...

[snow sun]

assuming most of those changes were made to combat lootrunning

similar to cz, most of the changes beat around the bush and don't tackle the actual problem

and it ends up affecting the intended way to play the content

but even after all the changes made to cz, you can certainly still rush through it, it's just slightly slower than it used to be

but it's now more cumbersome to run for regular clear as well, not to mention occasionally getting blocked doors in dd

[tiny peak]

does hunting companion trigger reflexes

[pine kettle]

🧠

[agile basalt]

tried out new Harrakfar's Roar, it's awesome

i feel like i really got what i paid for with my enhance

i can lock down rooms with only 4s downtime

now that i have a good feel for the current power of the charm, i do wish it wasn't just "make the enhance better: the charm" and some of the power was shifted into the actual enhance while the charm got a stronger identity

[bitter pine]

make it giant wind bomb that shoots mobs 30 blocks up

[agile basalt]

perhaps something like

• base dura 3s -> 5s
• base pull +50%
  roar becomes
• +70% radius
• +20% Aeromancy passive

[granite fjord]

4 charm cost
🔒 -95% Wind Bomb Height
🔒 +200% Wind Bomb Vortex Radius
+150% Wind Bomb Vortex Pull
+25% Wind Bomb Cooldown

A mini black hole

[bitter pine]

+100% Wind Bomb Radius
+200% Wind Bomb Damage
+150% Wind Bomb Launch Height
+200% Wind Bomb Slow Falling Duration
+200% Wind Bomb Weakness Duration
+30% Wind Bomb Damage Boost

[pine kettle]

sludge

[bitter pine]

funny

[pine kettle]

wind bomb rocket jump

[bitter pine]

one may hope

If only mojank velocity code wasn't so cursed

arrow goes straight into the ground pretty much

[green mortar]

i feel like the situational changes made player in r2 even squishier

compared to other regions

kinda related

could r2 situ cap be lowered to 28

so every region is +8

20 28 36

[bitter pine]

i mean yeah it was hit the hardest

i don't think people were really situ stacking outside of steadfast sw that much though

maybe a little shielding too

[green mortar]

bilionth time this has been posted here

[regal scaffold]

almost every r2 situ item should've been buffed at least a lil though so it should be more stable when those situs are down

[green mortar]

r2 agility hexbreaker

used mwake before

4 situs

[green mortar]

could you say how situationals scale with armor/agi up to the cap now? previously it was obvious but now even advancements just say "up to 20/25/30%"

[regal scaffold]

previously the advancements were just as vague

i could find no mention of the 20/30/30 cap anywhere in game

[green mortar]

20% increase to agi/armor is obvious up to the cap and knowing it too

the cap was hidden

how much ehp in agi/armor you get without hitting the cap

is unknown

now

[regal scaffold]

it works as is described in game as providing enough armor/agi to give you 30% * level EHP, but it'll scale linearly up to the cap of 20 / 30 / 36 depending on your region. Having 18 armor in R3 means you would only get 15% * level EHP's worth of effective armor.

[green mortar]

that makes sense. thanks

[gusty gyro]

no lightbringer is r1 cleric weapon kinda

[upbeat fog]

stiletto is not the "premier cleric weapon" what

that title i think still goes to cwatchers but honestly its just most stuff with smite

[neon pasture]

its supposed t be the premier cleric weapon

it is the sole magic damage sword in the region, those weapons are made for cleric.

[upbeat fog]

bro there is nothing premier about this in the first place 😭

if you want magic damage use c'axtals

[neon pasture]

also lightbringer got nerfed out of viability as a melee weapon, please bring it back 🥺

[upbeat fog]

granted shooting yourself over 8% in the first place is a choice

[neon pasture]

C'axtals is also not really usable as a weapon ether, all axes just do sigifgantly more damage then it. The only use would be just to power up your spells slightly and have another weapon to stab the monsters with.

[upbeat fog]

not they do not dawg it is a very respectable weapon

[neon pasture]

in the other regions, the magic damage melees are just the best choice as cleric in many situations; that just inst really true in r1 where they are very understatted.

[upbeat fog]

literally tied for 4th highest base dmg with a 0.9

basically 3rd given velara crusher is a meme

[neon pasture]

lunatics respite is just outright better, it does equal damage with its first strike and has better attack speed

you can also gain significant advantages from the spec axes or even C scalawags hatchet

[upbeat fog]

yes
that doesnt change the fact that c'axtals is a rather viable weapon

[neon pasture]

its a viable weapon.... on shaman

I dont see a great reason to use ether one of these magic weapons on cleric as a primary weapon

[upbeat fog]

then uh.. dont! 🙃
we arent in the dark ages anymore. If an item sucks ass, it will be buffed to be more competitive

[pine kettle]

I think if it got a marginal base damage increase it could be awesome
Even more awesomer if it got Technique in R1

I think pass weapons are difficult enough and lategame enough to be able to get away with it

[cinder whale]

Hmm

[copper sparrow]

C'Axtal's Crusher could use a bit more, I think

its stats as an axe leave a bit to be desired (many other axes will outperform it for general use), and its magic damage boost while held only sees use for Shaman (which, for the record, is pretty fittin' given it's insinuated to be the weapon of choice for C'Axtal, a Tlaxan Shaman) since any other class that likes magic damage on their mainhand has a different weapon type they need to use anyway

[frank falcon]

Well cleric could use it if it had reasonable melee stats

[cerulean rapids]

okay so dj melee with paladin hits this (56 62) with my build (no bpact pendant), and with the new li i can hit with ~180 single target, let alone the aoe from mourning star (87 43 62)

javelin for me hits 57 damage but the damage on it is not required for me because i use it for launching into fights with an li charge active

this is without the dj enhancement extra magic damage

with it its around 200 damage on an li crit

with fractured warp drive, and malignant neuron means that most encounters only have a few seconds of downtime between them

damage after dj enhance proc

with touch of radiance you can just stop a deflector mage from being able to do shit and you can just melt it

[dense reef]

Just letting everyone know that the planned mini balance update will unfortunately not be happening as I have not had enough time to properly assess how cleric performs and all the feedback on it, plus I've got some mild burnout from coding for hours every day in the 2 weeks leading up to the update

If we end up doing one later I will let everyone know

[bitter pine]

take some time off you cooked

(i think what was changed is pretty good so far anyways)

[pine kettle]

(It's fine as-is)

[ruby chasm]

That also means no nerfs gonna happen

[bitter pine]

does anything about the kit really need to be nerfed though

[narrow furnace]

well can inure at least be reverted

[upbeat fog]

Fr

Inoffensive situ shot dead in the street

[peak tangle]

i feel like it was pretty well agreed upon that inure was more than "inoffensive"

[upbeat fog]

no?
it was the only situ to have an item in r2 and r3 with 2 levels that were both good

As opposed to being all but total memes (see drifting scales/piercing steel)

if it was a problem, crown of chains and sporebound wouldnt have gone unchanged for this long
Sporebound was last changed over a YEAR ago, and crown chains was last changed almost TWO YEARS AGO

situational ehp boosting above 2-3 levels getting reduced was enough

inure was not some household name of stacking

because you didnt stack it

you picked an inure piece or two for a decent way of buffing ehp for classes that took hits (or allowing a class thta didnt conventionally get hit become a bit more resilient), accepting that a 3rd damage type will still cause you problems

the 50% clause wasnt op, it was what made inure not all but a strictly worse ethereal outside duration

[oblique trail]

Situationals are meant to be situational

theyre not just slop you put on for raw ehp

Inure was very much just a slap on without much else honestly

I think, if theres any under powered inure items, that you should just explain how they are under powered

[narrow furnace]

i dont think the old secondary effect is that strong

[oblique trail]

why do you think so?

[narrow furnace]

it just doesnt feel like so for me , i used inure like twice before the patch

[bitter pine]

to be fair inure is not something you really actively think about compared to most situationals I think

it has no duration and if it happens it happens

you cant really choose to get hit by something, unless... you wanted to get hit?? But like, okay, why?

[green mortar]

well you try to not get hit by magic and blast even more because they are pretty much guaranteed to brake inure

[bitter pine]

sure, but in general, if I'm playing without reflection I will try to avoid taking magic and blast damage

especially since those two are far less frequent but higher damaging, usually

[pine kettle]

inure was situational because it was backloaded EHP that could be completely lost depending on your enemy composition

i think it was fine still even with the secondary clause, although

I would be fine if Inure stayed as-is post-patch but I would like the budget to drop even more

[peak tangle]

idk i also didn't really find the secondary clause too strong, but it just felt sorta free

[peak tangle]

like aside from one person in particular, looking at message history tells a story of a lot of people, including you specifically praising it

rating it among the top 3 in the game

putting r3 aside, its consistency in other regions was unapparelled

you did not stack inure because stacking stead is better, because being so tanky automatically fulfilled the build requirement

which is unique to something like steadfast, or to a lesser extent poise

and tbh i don't even find steadfast as arguably the strongest situational egregiously powerful, and it can't really be changed to not be that way tbh

without a fundamental rework at least

i think it's in a fine state

ideally i'd want something back for inure maybe, but i lean towards budget if anything

[neon pasture]

there are only 26 items (not including skins) with inure, I can say with confidence that 80% of them are bad now

it was good but it was never really something that was stacked since any stack build would just be made out of mostly weak items and not really be strong.

I never really liked inures design since it was not something you really planned around though; it was just an enchant you happened to have since you where using an item like Kauls warden or ex ironscale. Now I still dont plan around it, I just dont use it!

[upbeat fog]

im just gonna clear up two things

1. a situ being praised is different than is being called op and in need of a nerf. Nobody to my knowledge wanted inure to get nerfed.
2. I called it a top 3 warrior situ. Not top 3 overall. Even before the changes, i didnt think it was top 3 overall, because only bruiser classes could ever make use of it, and you could still get nuked by a 3rd damage type.

I really need to second miracle on this, most inure items weren't even very good before the change but now they're definitively bad items

because their situational that eats a chunk of their budget
is literally just ethereal if it wasnt good

[peak tangle]

mayb

i don't think the items are "definitively bad" from the change, but i could see them being less appealing than before despite some buffs

the 50% condition felt like weird to me when it got added, cuz it changed how i looked at the situational a lot, and it didn't feel as interesting

i think maybe budget increases can happen on some of the items, but i think inure itself is honestly fine working this way. I've always liked it since it got added

i don't think it is worse than ethereal for general gameplay

ethereal only really shines when you're facetanking a ton of hits, and especially now with the situational changes, playing like that is less effective on a conventional build

i dunno, part of me does also think that the situationals should strive to be roughly the same in item budget- i feel like it's strange to have some that are inherently worth more/less but perhaps it's fine for inure idk

[main vine]

inure in region where every mob has a magic ability while being melee/projectile

honestly i wouldnt count inure as a situational in r3 anymore, its something like a flavor stat now

again there werent really strong items with inure either, strongest there was is probably roots of the fen and its just a generic tank pick that just happened to be decently statted outside inure

[agile basalt]

EX Ironscale was a good contender i think

[main vine]

oh yea cz rush set pants

[peak tangle]

i think r3 mobs are kinda exaggerated when people talk about them, but it doesn't change the fact inure will perform worse there due to the prevalence anyways

tbh even ex ironscale, which was a super appealing item to me before, doesn't appeal much to me now so

maybe inure should get smth back

[mild moss]

So I'm kind of late to this whole discussion and I still don't even have full opinions on the situ changes, but why (in the changelogs) were justifications not given for the inure/reflexes changes

[green mortar]

there was?

[mild moss]

it just says the items will be rebalanced

The tempo guard and cloaked changes had explanations but not relexes/inure

Obviously I can assume "they were too strong" but insight as to why reflexes needed to be completely reworked would have been nice to have in the changelog

[mild moss]

Also I have a lot of questions about this "situational" idea. Because what about inure or the new reflexes is ever "situational"

[oblique trail]

I didnt personally make that change, but the way I see it is that reflexes now is trying to get you to consciously damage mobs to be able to have more dr instead of passively granting it with just 4 or more mobs

I believe you should ask mscr or chiinox, Im just stating my views on this

[wary reef]

well its only active in the situation when you damage enemies

[mild moss]

easily could have a sentence or two about it in the changelog... yeah I was just curious, it was def too strong but this change is a weird direction

[mild moss]

loot running is situational, playing the game normally isn't

[wary reef]

I feel like inure was hit too hard, it could've just give 33% effectiveness instead of 50%

[oblique trail]

whar

[wary reef]

[mild moss]

you were joking but I just mean reflexes was mainly used "situationally" ie lring/rod

and it was way too strong but it's in no way "situational" now

[frank falcon]

I agree inure would feel a lot better with the fallback mechanic

Esp in R3

My opinion is in no way connected to the fact I used crown of chains in r2 and nightmares warden in r3

But I'd prefer better inure than extra armor tbh

[wary reef]

reflexes was reworked to be usable without having to run legionary or content with high mob density

or lootrunning

[green mortar]

i use crown of chains no problem in 12pt delves still, but i fear any arcanic would screw me up

[wary reef]

why would you choose arcanic then

[green mortar]

i dont

but challenge delves exist

[wary reef]

[mild moss]

so it was

too

[green mortar]

and random points in edd

[mild moss]

Situational

...

[wary reef]

it was too good at its job

[green mortar]

reflexes was probably the most consistent situational

[main vine]

it was not situational in certain situations !

[wary reef]

it also became less of a situational when you slapped cloaked with it

[green mortar]

consistenational

[wary reef]

I personally like the new reflexes

[mild moss]

But that's a different problem than what you described, you could up the mob count if that was the issue

[wary reef]

its awesome

[green mortar]

elaborate

[wary reef]

that would just make it even more situational and good at what it was already good at

it wouldn't really fix anything really

[wary reef]

I play swordsage

its nice for melee classes

[green mortar]

enough

[main vine]

reflexes trigger on abil dmg right

[mild moss]

sorry am I missing something, why do we not like situationals being good in the situation they were designed for

[wary reef]

it should yeah

[main vine]

do they trigger on sidearm perchance

[green mortar]

direct dmg

so i assume most non dot

[wary reef]

its bit hard to describe but I think situationals should usable in every content you run

idk

[main vine]

we dont like the situation

this was kinda both anti lr change and making reflexes more "situational"

atleast imo

[mild moss]

yeah no amount of mob count increase would fix lr

[wary reef]

reflexes doesn't feel like situational but it is in a sense

[main vine]

disappearance of all situs from the game will not fix lr

[wary reef]

you could argue tempo isn't really a situational since it passively gives damage reduction

[mild moss]

either way I feel similarly about inure where it just happens sometimes and there's no "situation" you put yourself in where it excels

[main vine]

inure situation is delveless r1

[wary reef]

inure was still a situational with the secondary effect but it was maybe bit overpeforming

[mild moss]

mindblown

[main vine]

the strats

yea nwarden deserved that nerf it was so op

it had uhhh

uhhhhhhhh

[mild moss]

do we have too many r3 items we might have too many r3 items I forgot ts existed

[slate pasture]

https://tenor.com/view/aurified-gif-14165547921444576532

[main vine]

yea thanks it had aura

i infused magenta on it

i personally think reflexes change is fine

now make a proj item with it pls

[mild moss]

sidearm abuse?

[main vine]

stop leaking my strats

[mild moss]

gng you said it first

[wary reef]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-tongue-silly-gif-10645319279704373400

[main vine]

is it abuse if you are the one suffering from carpal tunnel

[wary reef]

you take irl damage 👽

[cerulean rapids]

sug add projectile fragil melee dmg armor piece (this is totally not because i use infinite shield wall totally not)

[green mortar]

thiefs raiment:

[cerulean rapids]

agility i think

[green mortar]

run agility then

do it

[wary reef]

Mix it

[green mortar]

ok wth

there is 0 armor items here

[wary reef]

guh since when was ribcage proj frag and not melee frag

[oblique trail]

it what

[agile basalt]

it what

[wary reef]

ok I might be dripping

was it always proj frag

[fleet lava]

i thought it was melee

[wary reef]

theres seems to be no change log mention of it

[fleet lava]

it is in Situational Changes.txt

[wary reef]

oh ok

[upbeat fog]

Id argue that actually using inure gives you more of a voice because you can see the difference
Crown is probably kinda fine given its only mildly different from fgc, but r3 definitely got hit hard. I used to be able to live 25pt fairly fine with a set that used sporebound husk
I literally just get nuked the second more than 1 damage type is present because if hits are alternating, i have basically no dr

[frank falcon]

I did feel much squishier in an r2 delve

With inure 2 after the changes

I didnt notice much of a difference in R3, but my build had like 180 melee ehp base so it was plenty and I also used bodyguard and challenge

[frank falcon]

Iirc situ stack was hit the hardest in r2 right?

Even if coc got like 1.5 armor I think

[upbeat fog]

Yeah

R2 got hit harder because r3 got a cap increase

[bitter pine]

both are situationals that you do not have to think about, they just "happen" - and are not hard to happen either

[green mortar]

what if r2 got 30 per situ

and r3 35 or 40

[mild moss]

what. reflexes was like the only situational where you could intentionally put yourself in situations where it was crazy ie lring/playing rod/legionary+other mob spam

[bitter pine]

did you actively think about inure though or did you just play normally

is what I'm getting at

[mild moss]

then just say inure, but also we just reverted it to old inure which 1. Was literally widely accepted as the worst situational at the time and 2. it isn't now somehow more situational

[bitter pine]

taking reflexes as an example - you cannot do anything really to trigger it
What are you going to do, spawn more mobs?

[bitter pine]

the nerf is in the wrong direction I agree

[mild moss]

I gave you 3 pretty clear example...

[bitter pine]

I do not know why it was nerfed in that way, but I think it does need changes

[bitter pine]

all of those are not active however
they allow you to do better where content IS like that

same with old cloaked, partially
You're encouraged to kill things - but often it's only there in bosses because what will 2 regular mobs do that needs damage resistance

now you are actually encouraged to play with it

old reflexes is just "when there are at least x mobs, you take less damage" - what do you need to change about how you play the game to interact with it?

[mild moss]

I see what you're getting at but like at this point "situationals" is a misnomer

[neon pasture]

you had a fair bit of control over reflexes with smart target priority. Going after the strongest mobs first, left the fodder alive giving you more defense for longer. Simply mowing down all mobs equally made the enchance worse

you also could opt to spawn more mobs thats a very valid thing to do

[mild moss]

and you're describing a different design philosophy than what the name "situational" would intuitively imply. Like the enchants being be good in certain situations...

[granite fjord]

Having more than 4 mobs around you was just another situation.

Not sure if a shittier Ethereal was the way to redesign it.

0.65s is barely anything.

[bitter pine]

if its design was fine it then it was way too easy to activate
"spawn more mobs" relies on outside sources
"Go after priority targets" is fair, actually - cloaked seems to be filling that niche now though
yeah the redesign is middling it should slowly decrease in potency after the current limit until a certain point where it hits half potency imo

Most of its use cases were places where mobs are spammed and in those places it is bis because you don't need to do anything just exist and not touch enemies

and once you do, it only deactivates with 3 or less alive

[green mortar]

Imo buffing r2 situs to 30% ehp per situ and r3 to 35 or 40% would make situational reliant builds more usable

[wary reef]

r3 situational scaling is fine

[green mortar]

my hunter lost like half its hp

maybe not half

[main vine]

press s and spacebar and win

who needs ehp

[green mortar]

problem is i kinda relied on ehp to position myself for a good volley and now i cant do that without almost dying

[main vine]

you are probably not dying to evasion reduced damage anyway

[granite fjord]

mfw my Hunter build lost 4 situationals since its first iteration

Steamgaze Monocle (Evasion 1)
Anti-Acid Apron (Cloaked 1)
Shroud of the Disappeared (Evasion 1) -> EX Ixume's Hunt
Blighted Path (old one, Tempo 1) -> same, without Tempo
Starbound Talon (Tempo 1, Reflexes 1) -> Silvari Coin

[main vine]

thats just changing the build

[granite fjord]

well, partially yes

I'm still a little bitter about Blighted Path losing Tempo

[main vine]

idk bad item to mid item

[green mortar]

steamgaze -> stonewrought -> falling blades
garb of gallows
razorleef breaches
dichen resolve -> blighted path
starbound talon -> silvari coin

[main vine]

personally i swapped from armor scout to telos realms

[granite fjord]

Razorleaf 🔥

[green mortar]

cloaked is quite similar to evasion

both reward keeping distance

[granite fjord]

But you can also now snipe an elite and get its bonus for 6s regardless of enemy numbers

[green mortar]

ye

also breeches is fun bc regicide 2

actual synergy withim the item

and speed

[ruby chasm]

Delve damage multi change feels tough with situ changes 😔

[dire sedge]

I did 32 point delve in r2 with my 3 situ build and didn't really feel lacking in ehp compared to before

reflexes is in it which means that it technically was less online than before too

[ruby chasm]

Because only r3 changed damage scaling i was talking about r3

[narrow furnace]

those axe rats in chittering gutter 😭

i think i'll just play 18pt from now on

[frank falcon]

When is the followup balance update coming? Paladin is in a good spot (and inure isn't but whatever)
But what I really want is some look into the hierophant changes planned

[pine kettle]

September

[frank falcon]

Oh wait I read the change-logs wrong, hierophant is coming in September anyway

Rip 😭

On another hand

[pine kettle]

the week-after balance patch was cancelled because it was meant exclusively to adjust Paladin if it came out undercooked

and there wasn't anything in Paladin that needed adjusting

[frank falcon]

Serebrian lineage and defensive line enhancement need changes

I just cannot see a use for serebrian lineage nor the enhancement

After playing like several delves with them

[ivory mantle]

??? It’s so cool

(I have not played with them yet)

[frank falcon]

It's not that good

Like, you would nullify more damage with the longer Dr

And the base enhancement by itself is basically nothing

As I see it, it'd be good in cases where there are rare but powerful attacks

But that doesn't really happen. Either you're in the crowd of mobs and two hits nullified means nothing cuz you get hit a ton

Or there are few mobs, which usually means its not dangerous

[ruby chasm]

[frank falcon]

2 hits blanked isn't that much, especially on warrior who has pretty good Dr anyway (toughness, base defensive line, resistance on bears and absorption on guardian)

Even when reaper had a hit blank on a like 5 second cooldown it wasn't considered unholy op

(it was definitely unbalanced but noone played it)

[pine kettle]

it is true xernial was locked in on cleric

[frank falcon]

If i had a suggestion on how to change it - instead of blanking hits, make them have 100% resistance. Then, serebrian lineage removes the Dr completely but gives like 50% Dr for 5 hits maybe

That would make an interesting charm, making the resistance stronger but only as long as you don't get hit more than a certain amount of times

That said, the enhancement definitely needs changes too

One hit is just... Not that good if it's on a literal 30 second cooldown

One might say "it's op because it allows you to blank a very powerful hit"

But the thing is, those don't usually come first in an encounter, so you gotta wait for it, taking just straight up more damage cuz you dint have defensive line Dr from the start

Also serebrian lineage removing the support aspect from the enhancement and base dr honestly just sucks.

It's cool in theory, but as I said it's underwhelming in solo play anyway

In fact, I'd rather have it the other way - the enhancement is stronger but ONLY affects allies

[green mortar]

most powerful hits are not melee dmg anyways

[frank falcon]

Like, 3 blanked hits but only for others

Embrace the supportive aspect of guardian

[frank falcon]

I know for a fact that the devs thought about something like that since the star point voodoo bonds epic exists

Well this one would be without the damage transfer, so quite a different thing but still

Idk if people notice but guardian is already a great tank in team settings

Challenge basically takes off 90% of the pressure off your team as everything is on you, shield wall can nullify all projectiles and help kite melee mobs for your team if played around, bodyguard is an "oh shit" button for your team, giving them 12 absorption and knocking away and stunning all threats while the guardian can clean the mobs that were a threat

Defensive line also exists

But guardian is great in team settings as a tank and can still contribute with melee damage

Anyway that was my pointless tangent rant on how I like guardian. Circling back to serebrian lineage, it quickly became my favourite charm with the potential it has, and led me to enjoy warrior but it needs changes so that this potential can be realized

I hope my feedback allows the devs to improve it and NOT leave it alone and unchanged for months cuz they forget about it

Oh and a note about the pull from serebrian lineage - cool idea. I have not seen it have much impact but that may be due to solo play and a failure to properly utilize it. It should probably be kept as it fits the gimmicky theme of epic charms

[upbeat fog]

I found it pretty neat on a telum sweeper build

The free damage negations + dr and pull helps sweeping really clear stuff out

[cerulean rapids]

sug add earthen wrath skill

[upbeat fog]

Sug add delete ewrath i hate it

[cerulean rapids]

trvke

ewrath gotta stop showing up whenever i mutate as steel

[frank falcon]

i will defend ewrath with my life

literally the only skill that carries the "pure tank" fantasy in monumenta

[cerulean rapids]

good i will go jump into vesp attack

[frank falcon]

and earth is STILL UNVIABLE

i know cuz i asked today and got told by everyone and their mother that its not good and noone plays it and noone needs it and noone loves it

[upbeat fog]

Yeah except at the cost of undoing all progress made towards mainstream bruiser earth

[cerulean rapids]

earth lifeline now makes earthquake around you that affects both players and enemies

everyone is cooked

[upbeat fog]

I dont mind the idea of eating damage

The issue is nobody takes damage cause caster/steel sweeps shit with aoe

And even when they do, the explosion happens too late to matter

[frank falcon]

My suggested changes to Defensive Line and Serebrian Lineage:

Defensive Line New Enhancement:
Additionally, up to 10 affected players gain 100% resistance against the next two attacks that hit them.
(Changes made:

• all affected players changed to 10 max so it cant be absolutely abused in world bosses and similar settings. number is arbitrary and can be changed (both at base and by charms)
• Negation changed to 100% resistance so that this can be modified by charms.
• one attack changed to two because the 30s cooldown really is too long. I dont think cd maxxing with like a mdew, touch of radiance and the like would even be worth it.
• Changed "melee attack" to any attack. I don't think this is too much to ask for. This limitation imo doesnt make much sense, and it should be also affecting magic, which is usually the biggest threat. You can make exceptions like boss attacks to balance it.

New Serebrian Lineage Ideas:

The "more value if you dont take many hits" serebrian lineage
🔒 -100% defensive line damage resistance

• 5 defensive line enhancement blocked attacks
  🔒 -50% defensive line enhancement resistance against blocked attacks
  -20% defensive line cooldown
  (the stats that make it pull)

The "support" serebrian lineage
🔒 -100% defensive line self resistance
🔒 -100% defensive line enhancement self resistance
🔒 -30% defensive line cooldown
-10% defensive line resistance for others
+1 defensive line blocked hit
(the stats that make it pull)
(obviously its more conceptual ideas, take the numbers with a grain of salt and focus on the idea pls. i think these are cool and would be more unique to fit the epic charm that serebrian lineage is, but in practice these ideas could just suck. I just hope it gives the devs ideas and motivation to work on the charm and enhancement and make something really great instead of forgetting it and making it a trash forgotten charm and placeholder enhancement. the enhancement and charm really have a lot of potential)

[frank falcon]

where were you when i asked for bruiser earth 😭

can you share the buyild in #gameplay-discussion if you dont mind?

i wanted to try it out but didnt hear anything

[cerulean rapids]

up to 10? what about my dreams of eprayer scaling 🥀

[frank falcon]

precisely what im trying to prevent 😭

for the sake of balance it needs to be done, im sorry

[cerulean rapids]

eprayer is so dogshit it doesnt even matter 🥀

[frank falcon]

that lack of limit might even be holding eprayer back

since its... not good, and not really ever used except in those world bosses if someone wants to bother (they usually dont)

that said, im really excited for hierophant changes. Finally support hiero will be eating good!

[frank falcon]

also wanna say that while i think a support oriented serebrian lineage would be cool, im fine with keeping it as a more aggro option as long as it becomes somewhat better (im saying it needs a buff)

the proposal for changes in base defensive line enhancement still stands though. imo it would add stats to spice up using charms and generally make it a better standalone enhancement instead of (in my view) relying entirely on serebrian lineage to function

[peak tangle]

i think the defensive line enhancement is okay, but i'd rather it function to make the base skill more consistent to build into in r3 rather than being another riposte

i had an idea for it and i forgor if i posted it here befor

Defensive Line: Now grants the user 5 Knockback Resistance for the active duration. Skill now can be activated when your shield is disabled. Level 2 Radius increased from 8 -> 10 Blocks. Enhancement reworked to "Half of the Damage Reduction provided from this skill will persist on affected players for an extra 0.5s for each collective instance of damage taken during the initial duration, up to 10s.