📄Wiki

[craggy wind]

This may seem minor, but I'd request a slight change to the colored cell backgrounds in tables. The Reb/blue/yellow is spot-on with the game's color system, and also, it's a little hard to read the text (element field in infobox). Similar to best practices in spreadsheets, I recommend we go for more of a tint. Fans are getting older, so I want to keep readability in mind.

Maybe we can make these three colors - and the element colors - into template variables? That way, if we ever change them again we only have to edit the template.

[empty adder]

Trent is one of a few enemies that gets "substantial" remarks. Synopsis including its description. Combat section with a sentence explaining why it stands out from other enemies. Relevant trivia. Most of that will frankly be enemy for most enemies because a lot of them just kind of exist.

[craggy wind]

My wording came out weird. I think the cells with no text are fine as-is.

Yeah, that makes sense.

This reminds me, I need to add trivia for Lizard Man.

[empty adder]

Regarding element formatting, I kind of made a unilateral decision about that, so alternatives are welcome. I tried to make it as legible as possible, but less saturated tinting is a better idea. I had done some fairly "creative" things. I felt like dark blue, brown, and purple would have been too similar, so to distinguish them, I made Earth tan and Thunder pink instead.

In Thunder's game, there is also the matter of the game calling its color magenta when it's obviously purple.

I had also momentarily considered symbols to help color blind people, but I figured a symbol can't possibly be more helpful than the actual word written in boldface.

[craggy wind]

Understood, and thanks for moving that forward regardless. Actually, in Severed Chains retail, the color of "thrown items" didn't reflect the given element colors. Monoxide went ahead and changed those (in SC), haha. An improvement IMO.

And yeah, the word should be sufficient.

[thorn ruin]

That's retail, not SC

They use what appear to be beta element colours for a lot of stuff in scripts

[craggy wind]

Sorry, I was in future-tense mode at the start of the sentence haha.

it wouldn't make sense to say SC had the wrong colors but retail had the right ones.

[balmy robin]

dont you hate when you just get locked into passively glimpsing into the future

[empty adder]

Oh SC didn't do anything wrong at all.

If you play the merchant's tutorial, he tells you "the window color is magenta" when the window color is purple.

[craggy wind]

I didn't mean that it did; I wrote an error.

[empty adder]

Funny story. I accidentally had to diagnose someone as colorblind when he showed me a sample of brown paint that was actually purple.

[craggy wind]

@empty adder re: tabbed tables. initial response says we can try an extension, but it may not have everything we need. Still good info I think.
<#388048181142749185 message>

[empty adder]

Worth a try.

ya know, this may be being overly anal about it, but I had some disgruntlement about the way I as writing HP ranges, too.

In most cases, it's fine, like when an enemy has two attacks and uses one at blue health ( >50%) and the other at yellow or red (≤50%).

But then there are some enemies that use an attack only at yellow, and technically speaking "25%─50%" isn't quite correct because exactly 25% is red health, not yellow.

But writing 26% is not technically the truth either because the enemy could be at some decimal between 25 and 26.

And then writing >25%≤50% is just awkward.

[craggy wind]

I feel you on that. To me, this is best solved by keeping separate tables per HP level. I find it neater despite the redundant move listings. However, I don't know that I can convince anyone of that because I'm not sure how best to visually format it.

[empty adder]

Could try the tables in their current form and just remove the numeric column, leaving only the colored cells.

[craggy wind]

When Wulves expanded my core list into those tables on the Behavior doc, it looks like he just went with "B, BY, Any, YR." Then you don't need the numbers, and we can specify the color/HP relationship as part of the template.

Yeah that.

I know some enemies do use an ability at a specific percentage of HP, i.e. 61%, but IIRC that's just bosses.

[balmy robin]

I have concluded that the Mole enemy is a monotreme and lays eggs.

[empty adder]

lol

[craggy wind]

Emerald with the more serious topic at hand. 🫡

[empty adder]

Speaking of Mole but slightly off topic, do you know what my favorite Pokemon is? Dugtrio. Do you know why?

[craggy wind]

I used to think it looked like a platypus.

[balmy robin]

I uh...added Mole trivia.

[craggy wind]

Your favorite Pokémon is Dugtrio because... you dig it?

[empty adder]

Because of the instances of evolved Pokemon comprised of previous evolutions, like Magneton and Dodrio, we can at least confirm that the evolved Pokemon really is multiple instances of the previous one fused together into a single organism. However, in Dugtrio's case, we cannot be sure that it isn't just a team of three individual Diglett.

[craggy wind]

The stats better be triple an equivalent Diglett then.

[empty adder]

lol @balmy robin mentioned the playpus.

A correct observation, and also, you know what my favorite thing about the platypus is?

If you described a platypus, a unicorn, and a chupacabra to someone who had never heard of any of those things, they'd think it was the platypus that you made up.

[balmy robin]

right!?

also, the Mantis. That orange dot. We callin that an eye or a nose?

[empty adder]

That almost certainly has to be an eye.

Or a very strange anus.

[balmy robin]

okay, just wanted to make sure we were in agreement, im okay saying it has a single compound eye

similarly, the Evil spider. That is fur, not a web sac for carrying young.

[empty adder]

I have questions about Slime and Ugly Balloon.

Are these uncanny valley animals, or are they people who suffered a terrible fate?

[craggy wind]

It's a secret Dragoon spirit, obvs.

[jovial lava]

also need an explanation for where the bird men in home of gigantos fit into the 108 species

they're clearly an intelligent species, they can use weapons, talk, pick pockets

did a Mininto get it on with a Roc at some point?

[empty adder]

Several enemies make me question the 108 thing.

[craggy wind]

Can you not put that image in my mind? kthx

[empty adder]

Like, Orcs, Piggies, and Goblins wear clothes and use tools.

[jovial lava]

Too late, clearly

[empty adder]

And what about Dark Elf?

I think it goes without saying that Dark Elf is not just some evolutionary accident.

[jovial lava]

I may be wrong, but isn't at least implied that humans, winglies, minintos, and gigantos are the only intelligent species?

it may not be

[craggy wind]

That's not really a thing.

[jovial lava]

but if it is that has some weird implications for where all those other intelligent species came from

[empty adder]

Imago raises questions too.

Obviously it was made by the tree before human and winglies and all that, but it didn't "flower" until wayyyyy later?

[craggy wind]

TL;DR there's virtually no info on it, except that intelligence seems to increase with each successive fruit by number. However, Dragons specifically betray this notion, so.. it's not really reliable anyway. All I can say with affirmation is that the Humans and human-offshoot species are not the only ones who are intelligent. The Dark Tribe, for example.

and we don't even have a fruit number for them.

[jovial lava]

yeah, it's explicitly (in the translation at least) a fruit that failed to hatch when the others did. It's new and the only one of its kind

So really, we've only got 106 species to work with

[craggy wind]

Maybe the real reason things went bad is because Imago didn't birth sequentially. #iceberg

[empty adder]

😮

That's why it's a butterfly!

It butteryfly effected the whole damn process!

[balmy robin]

...bird men?

you're telling me theyre NOT just humans made to look grotesque and ugly?

[empty adder]

wait, which ones are we talking about? Was I not paying attention?

[balmy robin]

crafty thief I think?

as they have a super big orange nose that COULD look like a beak, but they also have a mouth. So I just took it as how a "witches nose" is made to look obscenely large and applied the same idea

[empty adder]

Oh, yeah I thought they were just somewhat deformed human men.

[balmy robin]

the Merman, do we know they're scripted to specifically target dart only?

[empty adder]

I can tell you from experience that they do not target Dart exclusively.

They might target Dart more often, which is why I left it in there when I was working on that page.

[balmy robin]

hmm. that needs verification for sure

[empty adder]

@thorn ruin @jovial lava I choose you!

[balmy robin]

its not in the behavior doc, and that seems like something that would be, but I don't know how to check scripts to verify

[thorn ruin]

Elemental attacks are much more likely to target characters of the opposite element

[empty adder]

In that case, calling attention to this mechanic on the Merman article seems like a strange way to do it since there are Darkness and Earth enemies that can pick on Shana and Lavitz much sooner than the Merman picks on Dart.

[thorn ruin]

It definitely doesn't belong in enemy articles

[jovial lava]

Mobs iirc have a hardcoded 50% chance of selecting the opposite element party member, and if that check fails, they're still included in the random chance out of 3 to get picked

[empty adder]

This is helpful. Thank you both.

Suddenly it makes sense why Vampire Kiwi seems to prefer Shana.

[craggy wind]

Yeah, this needs to be on the element article at least for now. Maybe some kind of general Combat article later.

[jovial lava]

That's just because she's got the delicate skin and high CO2 content

[craggy wind]

Oh, they're not focusing on her to get some of that 108th Soul's magic power?

Kiwis leading the way for the evangelist army.

[balmy robin]

the Mermans mouth is Gyarados' mouth.

[jovial lava]

I dunno, they're very distinctly not the same color as their skin, and not only that, have an orange-red band at the base. It's shaped and colored like some kind of half-beak

...

[empty adder]

Is it not possible that it's some kind of clothing item and not part of their body?

[jovial lava]

also, if they are, they're attached by adhesive lol

there's nothing connecting it

[balmy robin]

"Welcome to the Gehrich Gang, heres your uniform."

[empty adder]

Hmm

[jovial lava]

We found him

[empty adder]

AWfully big buck teeth too.

Yeah, I don't know about these guys

[balmy robin]

alright, gonna tackle the crocodile and then gonna call it good for a minute, but thats everything up to the volcano

[empty adder]

Yeah it's not like it all needs to be done right now.

I started making it a point to get all the technical info onto the wiki because that's probably what people are looking for, but all the fluff can follow.

[balmy robin]

i gotcha, im just saying what areas i did to allow for review, while also letting you know where to pick up if you felt like it

[craggy wind]

I think it's less likely they're birdfolk, and more likely it's a costume. The Plague Doctor mask comes to mind.

[empty adder]

fuckin "pedipalp" wut? you made that word up

Google: nah he didn't.

[craggy wind]

Says the member going warp-speed. 🤪

[empty adder]

hey

shut up

Nah, I kid. That was mean.

[craggy wind]

I read the context clue lol.

[balmy robin]

I have learned so much about animals today lol

[craggy wind]

so long as we reasonably share and focus on quality edits I don't care what the speed is. So long as we maintain our mission and set higher standards than on Fandom.

Hellena sinking into the ocean.. yeah, my @$$ it did.

[empty adder]

I think that I have at least been able to accurately identify all stats and sources for all weapons, equipment, accessories, and items except boss drops.

Did─ did you sit on its face?

[craggy wind]

If that info isn't in the archive yet, we (or I) should do that at some point. All the drop/buy locations, I mean.

we have enemy/boss drops but nothing else IIRC.

[empty adder]

I mean if someone wants to fact check my work on the Equipment and Items article...

I even have the accessories listed in order of their first guaranteed availability.

[craggy wind]

Did you change it from alphabetical?

[empty adder]

Someone may need to amend the descriptions for Angel Robe and Holy Ankh too because I honestly don't know whether they revive at 1 HP or half.

I mean it's sortable, so it can be instantly changed to alphabetical.

[craggy wind]

half

[empty adder]

okay im wrong

[craggy wind]

Ah, there are no arrows on the headers. I didn't realize it could be sorted.

It also adds consistency with armor's default sorting, and I do prefer that to be order of appearance.

makes sense.

[empty adder]

I included the sortable tag. What it does after that is beyond me.

[craggy wind]

No it's not a you issue, all good.

to-do: someone add a note saying the table is sortable by clicking on a header. Italics or something for now.

[empty adder]

So do we have to make a bunch of little templates for things like elemental stylization, or is it possible to put them all into one template and proc fragments of it at a time?

[craggy wind]

proc fragments should be fine for something that small.

[empty adder]

I don't know how to write a template that works that way.

[craggy wind]

I also don't know. But that won't stop us haha.

[empty adder]

prolly easier to just make individuals then 'cause I've googled around for how to do that and couldn't figure it out. I barely even managed to understand the #if thing

Correction: I still don't understand the #if thing.

[craggy wind]

I wrote in the correction for Ankh and Robe. ✅

[craggy wind]

Have you tried the MW knowledgebase?

[empty adder]

I even went to the MediaWiki Discord at one point looking for help with variable argumentation and came out of it no smarter. Even a syntaxc that someone straight up wrote for me didn't work.

[craggy wind]

Ouch!

[empty adder]

I guess any which way it's done, template syntax for enemy abilities and all that need to be written at least once, whether it's individual templates or a 'master' template.

[craggy wind]

Dang, there are some features I find so bizarre at first. It's possible to call a template X number of times.. but how would that work if you need to insert different data for each instance?

[empty adder]

Individuals would probably be less likely to confuse editors too for that matter.

[craggy wind]

That's why I originally wrote separate templates, haha.

It causes no harm, but tidying can be beneficial for advanced wiki coders.

[empty adder]

Which it does not appear that we are, so it's kinda moot.

[craggy wind]

Yes, it's something we can revisit later if we gain the skill or a new volunteer with said skill. No worry at all.

Ah, more edits to patrol. Curses! (<_< Emerald).

[empty adder]

guess I'll make some templates before I proceed making enemy articles

[craggy wind]

I need you to slow down a bit on them anyway haha.

[empty adder]

https://tenor.com/view/gotta-go-fast-sonic-the-hedgehog-fast-speed-motion-blur-gif-18342829

[craggy wind]

I saw someone doing lots of edits on the Fandom wiki. I sent a message asking if they'd check the in-house wiki and see if they would consider working with the rest of us.

[empty adder]

Cool deal

[balmy robin]

nice

[empty adder]

Is it possible to summon @short ember? The status ailment article looks really good.

Its links need to be changed to the Equipment article, though.

[craggy wind]

For both of you: please remember to input a reason for edits in the text field, including new articles.

For existing articles, it gives me quick context when patrolling edits for review.

For new articles... well, it prevents this hot mess in the recent-changes list. It can just be "created page".

[empty adder]

lol yeh. I wrote "Initial" for some of the new articles at first but then kinda forgot about it

[craggy wind]

anything brief would be fantastic, pls. xD

[balmy robin]

gotcha

[empty adder]

Another thing I hit snags with was that the behavior doc doesn't indicate which enemy ability names are official. Like, is Urobolus' "Loom From Above" a Sony dev tag, or is it a name that the author of the behavior doc gave it?

[craggy wind]

The exception would be edits that you mark as "minor", meaning typos or other tiny things that would never be reversed.

[balmy robin]

theyre almost all names weve assigned

[craggy wind]

I thought that was part of the doc. One sec.

Either it was never a part of the doc or Wulves ruined my work. D: lol.

I have the fix

As far as in-game data is concerned: all named abilities, both common and unique, are listed here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pYaiRhFhx4qE1339-_1fPUEwxR3nWalldXJtyFseXMA/edit?gid=184112357#gid=184112357

There may be a few more... something about Lloyd 1's finisher perhaps. But that's virtually everything.

There are repeats because lots of stuff is hardcoded, sadly.

[empty adder]

cool

[craggy wind]

rather than pointing to shared variables

[empty adder]

oh no we've been over this

Lloyd's abilities are named The Lavitz Special™

I will not negotiate about this

[craggy wind]

Okay, there's the door lmao.

[empty adder]

The door to Mayfil. Get through it, Lavitz.

[craggy wind]

You would get along great with Grey Mad haha.

Spectrum Sword!

that was the name

IDK if we should include it, because content not "used" should not be taken as canon automatically.

perhaps the devs decided not to use that name or maybe they ran out of time, but we can't make that determination either way.

so it'd go under Trivia for Lloyd's article.

[empty adder]

Sure

petition to change Rose's height back to 6'7"?

[craggy wind]

Sadly, denied.

[empty adder]

Step on me, mommy.

[craggy wind]

Don't make me call Monoxide in here.

[empty adder]

Monoxide can watch.

[craggy wind]

Ah, another one: Atlow's 5-Sense Blocker. It's part of combat speech rather than the usual ability box, but it counts.

[balmy robin]

that was the funniest thing to me. Just visualizing amazoness Rose at Kongols size

[craggy wind]

He's still much taller haha. Though not for a Giganto.

[empty adder]

Rose could have purged me in one of her Moon Child hunts, and if I saw her again in Mayfil, I'd have apologized for being in her way.

[balmy robin]

oh i know, but my imagination puts them equal

[empty adder]

Fruegel's model is positively huge even compared to Kongol's

[craggy wind]

It is. I wish they were all to scale.

[empty adder]

How do we know that they aren't?

Like obviously some models are not. The location sprites are not to scale.

[craggy wind]

The data doesn't match the models' relative sizes.

[empty adder]

What data? Does Fruegel have an official height?

[craggy wind]

age and height info is given for many dozen characters, including very minor characters.

Yes.

[empty adder]

hm

[craggy wind]

we also have Dragon tonnage.

Fruegel is 48 years old, 190cm.

[empty adder]

dat's nuts

[craggy wind]

That reminds me.. not suer how to go about it, but we need to include this data on the wiki. For lore-only characters like Fester, we can just have a template that includes a picture, age, height, and location(s) or whatnot. However, for a boss.. that's extra fields and only some bosses have such data.

Options.. ?

1. Add age/height to the boss infobox, and set default text to Unknown
2. Separate template that's only used for bosses who have age/height data
3. List it in the synopsis.

I'm leaning toward #1 on the basis that age/height are commonly in infoboxes on Wikipedia and such.

[empty adder]

hm

I might have recommended just putting it in the synopsis section since it's such a small amount of information, but I dunno

[craggy wind]

It'd work well, I'm just a sucker for infoboxes haha.

so used to seeing age/height on Wikipedia for.. over a decade?

[empty adder]

It makes perfect sense to have a separate infobox for characters with biographical information

I mean let's go through a few of them, right?

Commander. No known biographical information. Doesn't need the infobox.

Fruegel. Fought twice. Necessarily gets a non-template infobox.

Urobolus... need I say anything?

Kongol. Special case because he's a boss and party character.

Doel... Okay, he can have a biography field.

But also necessarily gets a specialized infobox because he has two stages.

Virage. Firebird.

I nominate option 2 because it looks like there's going to be a lot of awkwardness for most of these bosses.

[craggy wind]

It's mostly humanoids, haha. No need to delve into creature stuffs.

We can do it.

[empty adder]

I think Gehrich is the first boss that would actually use the template.

Assuming we know his height and age.

[craggy wind]

I mean there's a lot of entries

I'd have to look.

[empty adder]

Then Lenus gets another specialized box because she's fought twice, and Regole is a creature.

[craggy wind]

Without counting I'd estimate at least 30% of bosses have age/height data.

It's gonna be 🙃 for Princess Emille, because she has two ages at the same time.

[empty adder]

of course she does!

[craggy wind]

20 and 22.

Thanks, I hate it.

[balmy robin]

something something different calender systems? One on the lunar calender one the....star...calender...

[craggy wind]

Who the fuck wrote Potter Armor?

[empty adder]

The obvious explanation is that she's 20 and she just tells bartenders that shes 22.

[balmy robin]

Clearly a muggle.

[empty adder]

Potter Armor? Where?

[craggy wind]

Bosses article

[empty adder]

oh i ain't touched that one

[craggy wind]

@pure rapids This is 3 years belated, but thank you for making me laugh.

[empty adder]

Potter Armor at Fort Migrad

Speaking of infoboxes, I was thinking we should hyperlink some of the terms in minor enemy infoboxes. Specifically, Element should link the Element article, Counters Additions? should link to the Additions article, Status Immunity should link to the Status Ailments article.

[craggy wind]

Yeah. Can just be part of the template right?

[empty adder]

We can also tidy the infobox by removing the boxes for the four ailments that all enemies are always immune to and annotate that on the Minor Enemies article.

[craggy wind]

I'd rather hardcode it in the template so the checks are always there. I don't want the status data split to two parts of the article.

[empty adder]

Also also, if we're going to include the phrase "is a [[minor enemy]]" in every article, then we can more efficiently use the Minor Enemy article to compile all of the universal stuff.

Bewitch, Dispirit, Petrify, and Armblock are always there. They're not variables.

[craggy wind]

Oh, it's already like that?

[empty adder]

Yes.

I was suggesting taking them out of the template altogether and using the Minor Enemy article to compile data that applies universally to all minor enemies.

[craggy wind]

That should happen, but I think that can take place without splitting the data on enemy articles.

I see your point, and also, familial data should probably stay together?

[empty adder]

I don't think I understand what you mean by "splitting the data"

[craggy wind]

You suggested removing the ailments that are never in play.

[empty adder]

Yes

[craggy wind]

I don't want them to be removed, is what I'm saying.

[empty adder]

all right

[craggy wind]

brb

It may be splitting hairs, but for me it's the principle of it I guess. The game doesn't use some MHIT data, but that doesn't mean we don't document the numbers from the game. We document and we add a note saying it's phony. 😈

@thorn ruin it was MHIT, right?

[empty adder]

I don't think I was being clear enough about what I was suggesting. I did not mean removing Petrify, Bewitch, Dispirit, and Arm Block from the infobox and put them somewhere else on the page. I was suggesting removing them from the article entirely. Then just include a note on the article titled Minor Enemy that all minor enemies are always immune to these four status ailments.

[thorn ruin]

Think so

[empty adder]

I feel the same way about the little blurb in every "Abilities" section that explains how to read the abilities table. Just put it in the Minor Enemy article. In other words, compile all univeral constants into a single location instead of repeat them on every article.

[craggy wind]

Unfortunately, that won't work for people who read individual articles before happening upon (if ever) the compilation article.

The intent is good, but we have to think about it as though we're surfing the wiki as a typical end-user.

[empty adder]

True.

I'll be frank. I don't have much sympathy for those people, but that's true.

[craggy wind]

You're gonna have to lol. It'd be odd to require random readers to magically know there's a compilation article with that info on it.

[empty adder]

[[minor enemy

[thorn ruin]

You don't have sympathy for someone who googled something and went to the page that came up explaining that thing?

[empty adder]

[[minor enemy]] is conveniently linked in the template for every minor enemy.

[craggy wind]

And they may not click on it. 🤷🏻

Redundancy is not the devil. Foosball is.

[empty adder]

That's not what I said. I don't have much sympathy for people who are unable to extrapolate for themselves. If the information they were looking for isn't present on the particular enemy article, they could assume that we're doofuses and left it out, or they could infer that the information is in some other relevant location. In the case of Dispirit especially, the question "Is this enemy immune to Dispirit?" is a silly one. Enemies do not gain SP. Even if they could be affected by Dispirit, it would make no functional difference. If remarks about Dispirit immunity are absent, it stands to reason that the other three absent statuses are absent for similar reasons.

Or put another way, "i didn't get instant results. therefore 😠 "

I see the point you all are making.

[craggy wind]

I think a typical person would ask "why are half the ailments missing?" Sure, they may try to think on it and eventually come to the conclusion player characters can't inflict those ailments, or that the enemies are always immune, but that'd take a lot of checking. It's much simpler to just give them all the ailments side-by-side. We go from potentially being asked about it hundreds of times, to never being asked about it even once.

[empty adder]

I guess I'm cynical because I am used to working with people who are like "yo i keep getting this error message" and I ask, "What's the error message say?" And they're like "i dunno, i didn't read it." bruh... and then it turns out the error message explains how to fix the error.

[craggy wind]

I get that frustration, believe me. At the same time, these sorts of considerations are a part of the community service we provide.

[empty adder]

or, you know, my favorite: when someone goes to Reddit to ask a trivial question as if they've never heard of Google.

[craggy wind]

I think it's valid to ask question on Reddit in general. Especially given the recent obfuscation of good search results at times.

[thorn ruin]

It's mostly what Drew said, if the information isn't presented there it drives more support requests

Not everyone had the opportunity to develop search engine skills and other things you take for granted

I've worked in IT for 15 years, a little empathy will go a long way

[empty adder]

You know what? That's a true statement.

[thorn ruin]

Believe me, I've seen pretty much every kind of end user you can possibly see

And especially in gaming, you get people from all walks of life

[craggy wind]

TL;DR We need to create solutions that take care of everyone. It's not supposed to be built for my lens, your lens, or the modder who datamined it to begin with.

for added context: it's not just for neurotypical people who don't happen to consider such info is in a compilation article. People with disabilities also exist, so we want to keep some redundancy in mind for them as well.

All this said, I know it's hard sometimes to wrangle everything in a satisfying way. There's a lot to LoD and keeping data concise yet comprhensive has been my ongoing challenge for nearly ten years straight. It's rough, ruff.

[pure rapids]

Well, now you got me curious about how, my memory ain't the best and that was some time ago

[pure rapids]

And to D-Wrecks here since I just happened upon this, it may be redundant to state things you brought up here when a compilation article can centralize the information, but a community (or any) wiki is about ease of accessibility of information, not just efficiency of listing. Especially if it's something that is easy and concise to explain, like, saying an enemy is classified as Plant, rather than redirecting to a list of all Plant enemies, and hope the reader is savvy enough to know Ctrl + F can let them search for that particular enemy.

Which is also just quicker for them to have it right there in the same article anyways, lol.

[craggy wind]

All good Claire. My memory is swiss cheese, so I can relate.

[empty adder]

So I've started experimenting with templates on enemy ability tables. I don't think it works quite the way we were expecting, but it works. And it makes it so much easier. It was a great idea, @craggy wind

[craggy wind]

Yeah, I see that you bundled it in a creative way - basically turning the template into a whole table segment. Well done!

[pure rapids]

I'll probably go through old location pages and clean them up as a way to de-rust

I know some of them were used as kind of test pages anyway for folks like Swirling

Been too long now to retain lore/game events and I don't have that much spare time for another playthrough that easily

[craggy wind]

That'd help a lot, thank you Claire. I just reviewed your first one a few minutes ago and it's great.

I wrote an updated style guide for locations here for the time being. (Note to self: I gotta get the other layouts in there too)

The Onboarding document also has more content since you were last here - good for an overall refresher. Has notes on writing, a link to all the resources we use, etc.

@empty adder Have you altered any location articles lately? Want to ensure you're keeping with the style guide, and/or if you made a layout change we are sticking with, that the guide gets updated accordingly.

[pure rapids]

dunno that I'll be thorough enough to get that all down but I'll bookmark for reference

just gotta be honest with myself on that now 'cause I overpromised and underdelivered before lol

[craggy wind]

Countless people including me have done the same. Start small, see what works for you. I just want to make sure I give you the latest info now, rather than have you find out after the fact.

[pure rapids]

Guess I'll make a "mission statement" of sorts, which is mostly to make the story synopses more...palatable. Catch myself whispering under my breath now when reading things ever since I encountered a bit of advice to "read it like I'd say it." Commas being small pauses, periods and semi-colons are subconsciously taking a breath, etc. And then a new paragraph, I just think of having a power point presentation and you're moving over to the next slide, everyone's taking a moment to take in the pictures. Or the sheer amount of bullet points that had to be fit in.

Other thing I'll be working on is how group dialogue going back-and-forth is handled, if it's a little too quick to go from one person to the next, it'll feel like it "jumps" a lot to go, "Lavitz says...Dart then asks...Shana interjects, to which Lavitz explains...Rose is not amused by this"

*Editor's note: Rose is never amused

[craggy wind]

Yeah, it's a delicate balance when there are 3+ characters with short lines one after the other.

As digital conveyors, it is our job to ensure pig lizards sentences come out right.

Optionally, I could ask if you'll un-fuck the Dart article. All bold text must be removed, except the first instance in the synopsis and story headers. It may need some general cleanup anyways - two birds with one stone?

[empty adder]

Not lately. The locations that I've updated are Seles, Forest, Hellena, Prairie, Limestone, Bale, Hoax, Volcano, and Nest of Dragon. Mostly I cleaned up the Combat sections and changed collectibles images to .webp

[craggy wind]

Okay. I think all that's changed then, are the tables for singular mob listings.

(having images now)

[empty adder]

Yes, that would be the most significant change.

[craggy wind]

Got it.

I have to re-update the style guides. 🏃🏻

[pure rapids]

Could take a look when I wake up and see what that entails and then fix 'er up once my shift is over. Or at least start to. Depends how nice my wrists decide to play, very carefully working around a flare-up of the ol' ulnar nerve.

Once you get carpal or ulnar tunnel once, things get a little more delicate than you like sometimes.

[empty adder]

Not even gonna lie, some of the writing I've done was with speech-to-text

I talk to myself a lot, so it just kinda made sense.

[craggy wind]

I can relate somewhat, hand pain sucks.

[pure rapids]

Speech to text would be awful for me, lots more "um" and "uh" these days and sudden pauses as train of thought gets away from me

Some folks would probably think I'm a little special on first blush, but nah, just socially stunted

[empty adder]

lol I just keep repeating myself until I get it right and then go back, highlight the bad parts, and delete it.

[craggy wind]

I always find it so strikingly odd that there's virtually never an "uh" or "um" when I think/type, yet I have to make a constant effort to keep them at bay verbally.

[empty adder]

You know what? Me too. In my head, I just ramble and repeat the same phrase over and over again until it's refined into exactly the statement I want to make. But when I talk, I hesitate more, and when I write, I'm prone to all sorts of mistakes like duplicate fragments and transforming wholes words into other words.

[pure rapids]

Only composed when I write, sadly. Thoughts are free of "um," but also just goes all over the place on subject. Hooray for the logical extreme of "everything is associated with something"

[empty adder]

So I've got a question about these tables. Keep the numerals or ditch them in favor of the colors only?

[pure rapids]

I'd personally say keep both, some simpletons like myself would miss color change in the name to reflect remaining health

[empty adder]

lol Perhaps. It would also be more hospitable to colorblind readers.

[pure rapids]

I'm the sort of lad that overlooked the castle crumbling in Aria of Sorrow when Julius whipped out the Grand Cross

...feel like I may have aged myself talking about that and I hadn't even grown up with Castlevania

[empty adder]

I just kind of presume that everyone is in their thirties.

@craggy wind, have you looked at the Knight of Sandora page? I experimented with infoboxes again for enemies that multiple instances.

[pure rapids]

Close enough, 29 this June. Anyway, look at me, derailing like my usual. Bout time I slept anyway, y'all have a good one.

[craggy wind]

I'll take a look shortly.

ditto, keep both for now

[empty adder]

Actually I should scroll back up and find that information about toggle tables.

[empty adder]

@thorn ruin @jovial lava @upper hatch So I was looking at the wiki article for Status Ailments and Can't Combat was included but left unexplained. Now if I'm not mistaken, Can't Combat is not a status effect─ that is not what having 0 HP is called by the game, right? It doesn't have any ongoing effect like Petrify. It's just a momentary check to set the target's HP to 0, and then it... stops... doing stuff? Trying to figure out how to describe what it actually is from a programming perspective.

[thorn ruin]

It's not a status effect, no

However you can have 0 HP and not be dead, there's a specific flag that marks a battle entity as dead

[empty adder]

Presumably that's a separate flag in order to make it possible to revive knocked out party characters and for Ghost Knight and Ghost Commander to come back to life?

[thorn ruin]

Nope, just how they did it

The only place I'm aware of it coming into play is when fighting Lloyd, when you kill him he isn't marked as dead and takes one last turn at 0 HP to do his ending move

[empty adder]

Would it be accurate from the game's behavior to say that using Total Vanishing is the same thing as inflicting Can't Combat?

[thorn ruin]

Then the next time you attack him he's marked as dead

Yeah, as far as I know both of those just kill the target

[empty adder]

something something mumble mumble Almost sounds like depending on how pedantic you want to be, Can't Combat is not the condition of being dead, it's the act of dying.

[craggy wind]

Can't Combat means instakill, functionally speaking.

[empty adder]

Sure. I think what I was struggling with was trying to describe to players that Can't Combat is the precise moment at which a character's HP becomes zero, not the ongoing state of their HP being zero.

[craggy wind]

I'd group it with abilities that do set damage, like basic attacks from Rares or bosses that drop you to 1hp automatically.

[empty adder]

Yeah, that sounds right.

[craggy wind]

I see. Well, it's a shared ability, so it should be described as an ability rather than a status ailment. Death is technically a state change just like stun, but it's divorced from typical aliments. Naturally.

It certainly is funky though.

[empty adder]

Of course. I was just trying to rationalize its existence on the Status Ailments article.

[thorn ruin]

I wouldn't list it as a status ailment, personally

[empty adder]

Me neither, really, but it has some things in common with status ailments.

[craggy wind]

I'd say make a brief note of it with a link to an article on death state. Idk what to call that because there may be some conflict in naming. However, my point being it's an excuse to point people to an article on character death and/or "game over"

Should be a decent little tie-in for curious readers.

[empty adder]

That might be better.

[craggy wind]

I just reviewed the update to Status Ailments. Looks good, might be able to keep Can't Combat on that article.

[thorn ruin]

Still don't see how that belongs on a status ailments page

[jovial lava]

Same

[craggy wind]

I sort-of agree but we don't have another article to toss it in atm. Gotta decide whether it'll be an article specifically for that ability, part of a Death States article, et cetera.

I already suggested doing something like that and linking out to it from the Status Ailments article.

[thorn ruin]

I also don't see why it'd be linked from there?

[craggy wind]

Same reason you brought up the other day, I felt, but I could be mistaken.

[thorn ruin]

What reason?

[craggy wind]

Keeping a little overlap/redundancy. Some people may genuinely look at Can't Combat as similar to a status condition, as it has prevention mechanics specifically for that type of action across multiple abilities/enemies.

So, one line noting its existence and pointing to a different article makes sense to me. Such an article also wouldn't get linked to very much, therefore doing it from Status Ailments might give it a tad more visibility.

bbs, driving

[thorn ruin]

There are prevention mechanics for elemental damage, but that doesn't make elemental damage a status effect

[craggy wind]

I agree with you. It's for user benefit as some people may mix it up.

[craggy wind]

Caught up on edit reviews. 👍🏻

[lavish cosmos]

Is there a place I can find a tutorial on locating and editing the meshes/tex I'm after? I want to just start with world map Dart for now, but I'm struggling to figure out where the mesh is within the file structure.

I believe I found the textures, the texture data seems to be easier to read, but I don't fully understand how the palettes work, or how to know which palette is correct for the armor or face. Mainly because I don't understand how the game processes the data. lol

[craggy wind]

Hi @lavish cosmos. Seems like you found the CLUTs, heh. There are multiple of a given texture, instead of just one texture per model. For this, you can chat with someone like DooMMetaL, our resident expert on models.

This channel is just for documenting the game's story and combat on the surface level.

[lavish cosmos]

Ah, my bad. Sorry, I did a server search for meshes and it brought me here when you guys were talking about the wrong normals on the goblin mesh

[craggy wind]

See #1198091177363263550. This is a thread about DooM's in-house asset converter. It takes the extracted files that Severed Chains produces (when a user supplies a legal copy of the game), and converts them into mroe common formats for use in programs like Blender. It's mostly just models atm, but will eventually cover all asset types.

It's no trouble! Yeah, there was some issue getting models to load correctly in Blender.

[lavish cosmos]

Weird, so if I click your link it takes me to that thread, but I don't see that thread in the modding channel. Am I missing something there?

Oh sweet, he has videos in here as well. Dumb question, is it actually possible to import custom meshes/textures at this time?

[craggy wind]

Just in the topic list, or in your channel list on the left?

For Discord's forum channels, it shows recent threads and then has a divider for older threads. In order for a thread to be in your channel list, you can post in the thread or just click the "Follow" button I believe.

[craggy wind]

Yes, but not "formally." Long story short, SC has a modding API. This gets expanded over time, enabling more types of mods to be created. The system is meant to be simple for both modders and users:

• Modders use the API to make a mod
• Modders publish the mod for download
• Users download the mod
• Users put the mod contents in the /mods subfolder of SC.

However, it is also possible to go outside of that system if you really, really want to. Just need to know what you're doing. For example, see #1341465691265568880 . This involves merely replacing some of the stuff in the /files subfolder. In order to get stock assets back, you'd have to clear the files and re-unpack (delete the version file inside of /files, IIRC).

More relevant to your question, model swapping has been done. I don't recall the process and it was long ago, but we have some examples of Dart with a custom weapon (in my case, a candy cane). Eventually this will be a formal part of the modding API. I hope this answers your question.

[lavish cosmos]

Yeah, this is primarily what I'm after. I'm interested in getting involved in custom meshes/textures for overworld meshes similar to the FF7 Nino mods and such. Not exactly that art style, but something similar

[craggy wind]

Gotcha. I would love to see mods involving 3D models.

[lavish cosmos]

I just wasn't sure if the tools were there yet, but I definitely want to be involved

[craggy wind]

Touch base with DooM now. He'll probably tell you it's only possible in the non-formal capacity right now, but it is possible. You'll have to see if the process he specifies is too tedious for you or not.

[thorn ruin]

I loaded halo 2 maps as battle arenas in one of the last devstreams

[craggy wind]

Re: roadmaps, SC is getting close to 3.0 release at long last. Afterward, SC 4.0 development will begin, which focuses on the modding API. The only thing slated in particular is script modding, but other things will be packaged in. 5.0 will be 60FPS for battle, and after that more modding API expansion.

Ah yes, the Halo 2 crossover. That was very cool.

Corey, am I right in remembering model replacement is not a formal part of the API yet? It's just file replacement atm?

[thorn ruin]

You should be able to load custom submaps with custom models

Both for the submap and objects

[craggy wind]

Oh, juicy.

[lavish cosmos]

That's okay if it isn't, I can always check back. It seems a tad over my head at this time. I can't really seem to make heads or tails of how the meshes work. As mentioned, I want to attempt work on the overworld Dart mesh to start, but I'm not even sure I understand entirely how it works. Is Dart's mesh loaded globally or in every single scene?

[lavish cosmos]

Is there a link to this?

[craggy wind]

sec

[thorn ruin]

Every submap has its own set of models

[craggy wind]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRkuqqYLf6k

[lavish cosmos]

Yikes. So in theory, if a custom mesh was made, it would have to be replaced on every single map?

errr scene?

[thorn ruin]

Iirc there are at least 7 different models for Dart

At the moment yes

[lavish cosmos]

Damn. Are any assets global? Battle meshes?

[thorn ruin]

Only because we already deduplicated them

[craggy wind]

I tagged you in the other thread, Khali. more info on the way. 👍🏻

[strange wing]

Just learned that the Legend Casque has an unlisted effect where it halves all magic damage on top of the insane stat boosts. Checked the wiki and saw it was missing, but it's been a good while and I don't remember how to edit it anymore 😅 Found this out in retail while verifying some of the damage types lol

[jovial lava]

Surprised that wasn't recorded yet

[craggy wind]

Yes, we've had this documented internally for a long time. It's simply that the item and equip list hasn't been exhaustively filled yet.

both LC and AoL have a hidden effect, and they don't stack with Phantom Shield, so PS is a waste if both are already equipped.

amended to include both effects

[strange wing]

Looks like it's in the wrong column

[craggy wind]

It was intentional just to get it on the board. And maybe to encourage someone else to help out so it's not me writing 90% of the content. :)

[strange wing]

Was able to figure it out and fix it 😁

[craggy wind]

I should do things wrong on purpose more often! xD thank you.

[strange wing]

Hey is there a place to view all the templates like in a list?

[craggy wind]

Sure, what do you want to do?

[strange wing]

I was wanting to see what templates have been created, so I know what all tools are available

[craggy wind]

Tools, you say?

The list got ballooned recently, due to D-Wrecks' work on the minor mob articles. Before that it was mostly the preset layouts for each "type" of article: locations, bosses, minor mobs, player characters, etc.
https://legendofdragoon.org/wiki/Special:UncategorizedTemplates

those templates keep layouts in sync, so if there's an update to a layout we only make the changes once.. not 20-40 times.

templates can also be used in smaller doses, like calling up a single word or sentence.

And we can use them to populate new articles in a static way, with the substitution command. This copies the template's content elsewhere, but it's static rather than synchronized.

lots of cool stuff can be done with templates! :D

[strange wing]

Thanks! Am going to work on some of the minor mob articles as well

[craggy wind]

Welcome. Be sure to follow the ones D-Wrecks has set up. I am not sure if the style guide doc is up-to-date. I did a big update but I don't recall exactly if it incorporated all his stuff or if he did more after.

[strange wing]

Yeah I basically just looked at Berserk Mouse and have been updating the ones which have been either completely untouched or are obviously out of date. Figured as one of the first enemies it's probably the most worked on

[craggy wind]

Yeah, one of the higher priorities atm is uplifting the outdated articles to match current conventions. Thank you for helping!! I'll patrol for edits every few days as needed.

[strange wing]

Happy to help 😁

[strange wing]

Updated all minor mobs whose names start with A or B, and also Wyvern. Also created some new templates that were missing and fixed the broken links on the minor mob page for their various drops.

[strange wing]

Found and fixed an accidental delete in the LoD Internals spreadsheet
Updated/Created entries for all minor mobs whose names start with C through H

[craggy wind]

What was accidentally deleted?

[strange wing]

It was one of the Hellena Warden stats, a cell was left blank and a 3 became a 9, so probably shifted the cell right by one

[strange wing]

Big overhaul on the status ailments page
Updated/Created entries for all minor mobs whose names start with I through L. Also created and tweaked more templates

[craggy wind]

Okay. Pause there, as I'll need to patrol all these edits.

[strange wing]

Feel free to shoot me any questions, if I don't respond soon I've probably succumbed to sleep. I've touched up 41% of the minor mobs articles so far. Thinking at some point to add the more precise counter-attack data. Also will at some point go back through the game with a comb to verify attack names. But before that probs gonna tackle the accessories page

[craggy wind]

I am grateful for the big boost. Yeah, the counterattack data we've gathered should definitely be included at some point. As for attack names, unless you mean something else, this is easily done with the Combat script in the resource archive. All named attacks are present, i.e. Chisel and Skullcasting.

[strange wing]

Oh I actually forgot about that lol; I was just gonna manually summon enemies to verify names. At least for most of them I'm confident if the names are made up/translated vs direct quotes, but some enemies I'm more foggy on due to scarce encounters on an average playthrough. Like the mobs from the Divine Tree, the Tower of Flanvel, and that man eating bud from disc 1 xD

[craggy wind]

Yeah, the doc will solve all of that very fast. As with everything else, it's about empowering fans with knowledge! 🧠

I am starting my notes on your changes to Status Ailments.

[craggy wind]

on Status Ailments

• (unrelated) It's probably worth it to add a table near the top, showing the affliction hierarchy.
• re-added that going Dragoon can't directly solve all ailments (some require another member to activate special).
• reworked paragraph 2 and 3. Now, one is about prevention and the other is about cures, instead of a mix
• Do the damage formulas for Bewitchment and Confusion not factor in Power Up (giving or receiving) or Rose Storm effects?
• Bewitchment can be dispelled by defeating the enemy who cast it.
• petrified chars cannot be directly targeted and cannot be dealt any damage.
• amended Command Blocking paragraph.
• I'm not sure the trivia entry you added is possible without modding character status. Since arm-blocking cures post-battle, it's impossible to go into Polter or Melbu with it still active right? Or am I missing something? Still worth listing either way though - good catch.
• We should look at infliction a bit more. Despite having barriers up, I saw a character get bewitched. LoD has multiple ways for enemies to apply status, and the blockers may differ here. See #⛓️‍💥severed-chains message. (barriers don't seem to block direct-status abilities)

I have updated the article with some of these changes. @strange wing

[craggy wind]

This is very minor, but I am starting to think it'd be cleaner to put the asterisks in front of known enemy attack names, rather than at the end. More uniformity I guess. I also wonder about using them for unofficial names instead, even if it'd mean far more asterisks applied. Not necessarily a good idea.

I should tell you that MediaWiki's "minor edit" system is not meant literally. Rather, it means "an edit that doesn't require review and can never be the source of a dispute." It may involve: fixing typos, adjusting formatting, or rearranging text without altering content. I used to use it like you have been, so I get it.

Since you and I built the Enemy Abilities doc from the ground up in tandem with the SC team for clarifications, I'm not going to patrol the minor enemy articles you have created/edited just yet. You know exactly what's supposed to be there.

What source did you use for enemy status immunities?

Based on template changes, we'll have to update some style guides and writing instructions. For example, I don't recall that formatting for minor enemy synopses was altered. This can create confusion, and we may have new editors in the very near future who pick up outdated instructions.

Minor Enemies article

Hmmm. Weren't a few minor mobs immune to instant death? I think a better way to introduce them is to say they are repeatable, non-unique enemies who are susceptible to status conditions.

Your link alterations to The Moon went invalid. We have an existing article titled Moon That Never Sets, which is treated like a regular dungeon location.

As an aside, I added the correct translation of Canbria Dayfly in a new trivia entry. \o/

I have caught up to all of your non-Minor Enemy edits. Well done overall!

[strange wing]

• Yeah I would've added the hierarchy, but I don't know it off the top of my head or where we keep that data, and I'd already spent 4 and half hours on that article so I needed to sleep xD

• Bewitchment and Confusion do not factor in Power Up, Element Bonus, or Field Penalty. Rose Storm uses the same function on boosting defense as Power Up, effectively Target Power Up, so it shouldn't work either, although I haven't expressly tested it.

• Yeah the trivia is only observable using hacks- shoutout to Monoxide adding the status tool or I'd never have found that out

• Ooh I haven't even thought about the Magic Shield and Physical Shield, definitely gonna play around with how those interact with various abilities. I'd imagine it will correlate to whether the statuses are tied to A-AV or M-AV, since sometimes it doesn't line up with the damage being dealt, like when an attack deals physical damage but also inflicts a status that can be dodged with M-AV.

• I agree, I think I'll move the asterisks to the front. It'd make sense for it to be asterisked on unofficial names, but that would need to happen after verifying all the names to avoid confusion.

• Yeah I think I started to realize that after a long ways in whoops. Still learning hehe

• I used the LoD Internal Data spreadsheet for immunities

• Yeah I just went with what was already there and looked good. Will go back through with a comb once the entries are more fleshed out to make things like synopsis and trivia uniform, but I've gathered from what was there already that synopsis is a written description of what the creature looks like and any worldbuilding info like how the knight of sandora synopsis is written, while fun facts like the sprite being a recolor or that an enemy has a rare moveset go into trivia. Will approach the style guides and update them when I get a chance so they better reflect the templates I've added and edited.

• I can't quite recall if there are ones immune to instant death, unless you're including the rare mobs like 00 Parts. There's mobs which are limited in encounter like bosses, but are still affected by instant death like Magician Bogy, Guftas, and Rodriguez. I'd have to test around to see if there are anymore because that's all I can recall off the top of my head.

• Gotcha, I think there's a slight issue with the minor mob template that calls for locations. The structure is something like, "...this enemy can be found in [location]." but the problem is for entries that should be prefaced with 'the' such as the Barrens, the Moon that never Sets, the Mountain of Mortal Dragon, etc. Can't just add 'the' into the template, or you get stuff like "the Aglis" but without it, it sounds grammatically incorrect. Easiest solution imo would be to just have those articles prefaced in title with 'The' so it's called in with it, and so the titles don't sound odd in of themselves.

• Nice! Thanks for looking over everything!

• I looked over your additions to the status ailments page, looks good. I added spells, did a minor order tweak for more uniformity, included finer details on poison's damage formula, clarified targeting on Petrification and included inability to recover, and clarified the Dragoon form's interactions with Command Blocking. I've also made a note to test if Dispiriting blocks SP from equipment and items, since that isn't mentioned yet

[craggy wind]

Only 4.5 hours? pfffft

If you tested Power Up then RS should match, yeah.

I was unable to get status-setting to work in debugger. :(

thanks for the feedback in general. I release the pause, haha.

as for status and shields, it seems to depend on whether the ability deals damage or not? it almost sounds like the status proc won't fire unless the damage got through.

(but does 0 count, or only misses block the status proc if so?).

Might need to tag @gilded flower , he had intimate deets on this.

The internal sheet should be since Zy's corrective upload the other year.

[strange wing]

Yeah when I was first using it I almost thought it was bugged but I realized that the status debugger can't inflict statuses on members who are immune to that status (lots of stuff late game protects from a bunch of stuff, didn't even realize for a bit that I had that on Rose) and also can't apply it if the character is guarding

[craggy wind]

as for the "the" issue.. might be solvable? Unclear. We have a thing that can detect singular vs plural.. but idk if "the" is a more difficult type of detection, given the English language.

it's a nice automation feature though.

[strange wing]

Are the encounter numbers in the Encounter Data spreadsheet equivalent to retail? I'll note to add them to the minor mob entries if so

[thorn ruin]

Yes

[craggy wind]

mmm, maybe a good piece of data for the infobox?

[strange wing]

If we can fit it in, it'd also be nice to include all encounters where the mob appears with other mobs as well. I think there's even one or two mobs that never show up alone as well.

[craggy wind]

Possibly. We already have this expressed in the battle formations section on location articles. We can do localized versions to that mob on their own page I guess, but it'd only be a few entries for each at most.

I am adamant about a full list of formations, however, as their own article. We already have all that data anyways.. might as well make a compo.

[strange wing]

Would you be opposed to me transferring the style guides into the wiki itself as special pages? That way everything's all in one place and easily searchable.

[craggy wind]

Style guides were moved off-wiki for the time being.

much cleaner, and newcomers got less confused.

[strange wing]

Can we pin links to the style guides here so it's easy to find?

[craggy wind]

I should add: we have the older ones on-wiki, so they can either be updated manually from time to time or removed to avoid that kind of confusion. Sorry, brain.

either way

and yes

[strange wing]

Sounds good, I'm not actually sure what all guides there are. This was the only one I was aware about: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1V7OjaEfJVmqhhCngDU7-hYgEbsud9IX_qOqSOPGdbWk/preview?tab=t.0#heading=h.l8u38c4v26a2

But after your comments I realized there's probably more, and found this one using discord search: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HUuUiB0sOuErhV58yK_r6xTCnhAgvcD9n8FIKp43v9c/edit?tab=t.0

Were there any others?

[craggy wind]

Wiki portion of the Resource Archive - LINK

Contains onboarding, writing tips, style guides, and more.

[craggy wind]

Ah, see URL in the pin.

Thanks to you me and a few others, the checklist is very out-of-date. Many on-hold items are now open for editing.

but we can look at that later.

[strange wing]

Also would it be possible for me to get permissions for deleting pages? I'd like to tidy up the leftover/defunct templates from the minor mobs

[craggy wind]

Dang, I forgot how well I wrote some of the onboarding doc. Whew.

I can look into it. I may need to set a new in-between role so I don't give every editor deletion power. Not quite up for that risk.

Which ones are leftover/defunct atm?

[strange wing]

A lot of ones that are move specific when there's lots of instances of elemental damage outside that move. So for example the template:Burn is only for Burn Out, but I created DmgFi to fit with the naming convention of DmgPh, and it can be used for all instances of fire damage and not just one attack. There's probably more that I could point to overtime as well

[craggy wind]

Ah, so just improving on what D-Wrecks started. Very good then. I'll try setting the perms tomorrow.

The more we can use universal, versatile templates instead of specific manual ones, the better.

[strange wing]

+Added encounter field for minor mobs template
+Corrected a bunch of errors in the additions tables (Spelling, incorrect stats)
+Added number presses to the tables and marked the ones which are never countered
+Parsed the counter attack spreadsheet and found there are only 9 variances of counter table (+2 for countering all or none) so was able to categorize all mobs into 10 tables.
+Added counter data for all mobs in the Additions article
+Consolidated rules for counter attacks
+Created a template for the first table (Cou28)
+Added counter data field for minor mobs template, with no data entered resulting in a default of 0 for those who cannot counter

-Still need to create the other 9 tables, but should be fairly easy now that I have the first one done. Once that's done, adding counter data to mob pages is as easy as typing: |Counter Data={{Cou28}}

Would keep going, but sleep is calling

[craggy wind]

I do feel that the old language of "Sometimes an enemy will not counterattack even if it could have" is clearer than the new language of "only when given an opportunity." Even though the latter is more meaningful to the game mechanics.

I agree with listing the "button press" count, but it feels weird to me that the strike count was removed. It's probably a dumb nitpick, as the two numbers are only one count different, but I am used to wikis where combo attacks are displayed with the strike count / # of hits.

You listed Omni Sweep as 501%. We have this as 500% in the Game Info doc. One or the other must need correcting? I am seeing a few other discrepancies as well.

It may be helpful to lightly frame the Opportunity system as levels of aggression, and include a list of enemies that cannot counter. People will do control-F and check random enemies, so they should all be listed.
trivia that some enemies can counter but have no aggression, and vice versa.

I was able to figure out why you didn't use the aggression values listed in the matrix doc. I was hoping the original aggression values would be exposed here, but you cut a layer of translation with literal opportunity count so I think it's great anyway.

Overall, rad af update to the additions article.

[strange wing]

Would mixing the two togther into something like, "Sometimes enemies will not counterattack even if given an opportunity" work? Mostly wanting to preserve the keyword "opportunity" so it matches the charts.

Yeah I felt similarly, but having two counts that are virtually identical next to each other felt too redundant, and of the two presses is the more pertinent information. Thankfully, when I add the damage formulas and hidden charts which make use of hits, it'll end up in there anyway

I referenced in game for everything I changed, so game info doc is incorrect

Good idea to include the 0 group, will get to that eventually. For right now, if your enemy doesn't show up on a control F search, it cannot counter.

Yeah I might include aggression's specific mechanics at some point to just have more of the game code documented

Thanks! And also thanks for looking over it 💙

[craggy wind]

How the hell did the game info doc get multiple incorrect datapoints? History too long, will not check.

You make a good compromise for the first part.

I wanted aggression meter but I may lose the vote on that one haha.

@jovial lava did that rating affect the actual frequency/likelihood of counterattacks?

[jovial lava]

If I understand what value you're asking about, no. It's a threshold for whether a monster is capable of counter a hit at all

the lower the value, the more hits they have the capability of countering

maybe I should have called it reflexes lol. Aggression is a little misleading, it was just the first term to pop into my head

each monster script iirc just has a hardcoded value compared against RNG for whether they actually counter a hit that they are able to counter

but that occurs in the script engine, not the game engine

[strange wing]

That fits with what I understand. Spring hitter is the only enemy in the game capable of countering only one specific addition press, and its aggression is listed as 22 which is the highest of all mobs

[craggy wind]

Okay. Is there any way to tell what the % chance of a counterattack is?

if difficult, ignore request.

[jovial lava]

Yes

Find the value in every single monster script 😛

[craggy wind]

well I suppose we can look at 2, and if they're the same, assume all are identical. Very good practices in play here.

[jovial lava]

the counter code is the same across monsters, so you can search for a chunk of it in a hex editor

[craggy wind]

Unfortunately I have way too much on my plate. We will put this on the list of things non-Drews and non-Coreys can assist with.

[jovial lava]

or someone can do something sane and write a quick script to find the value in each with some pattern matching

[craggy wind]

that's derentus.

also thank you for the insight.

[craggy wind]

So who does Spring Hitter have beef with?

[strange wing]

Dart for some reason xD

It can only counter Volcano

Any idea where we keep the data for where encounters occur? Like, iirc each screen in an area has different probabilities for certain encounters, like in shrine of shirley there's an area where Crystal Golems are more likely or one where gargoyles won't show up at all.

[craggy wind]

Yes, it's 4 battle formations per submap. Each of these four is given a weight - as far as I know it's a simple percentage. IIRC the weight distro is the same for all maps.

I don't have it in front of me but can link you soon.

[jovial lava]

Read that as Spring Hitler lol. Some real The Producers vibes 😆

[craggy wind]

oh dear

[strange wing]

+Corrected the internal spreadsheet for additions
+Created the remaining templates for Counterattack Data
+Updated the style guide with one simple trick for learning how to format mobs, DRs hate it. Also updated the synopsis definition for uniformity, and included some exceptions and the various templates
+Updated the minor mob template so unofficial names are marked instead of official ones. Also, due to formatting constraints, the symbol for marking is ~

Would you be opposed to moving the articles like Moon that Never Sets, Barrens, etc. to The Moon that Never Sets, The Barrens, etc.? Would be easy to just copy paste current articles into new the new ones, then delete the old ones. This would fix the grammar problems that keep cropping up.

[craggy wind]

No laptop ATM. Which synopsis, just minor mobs?

We tend to avoid "The" in most cases. While it's somewhat a personal preference, using "the" in front also breaks search autofill.

However, when we change article names, we use a native "move" function. Copy-pasting is a last resort.

[strange wing]

Yeah just minor mobs
Why does it break autofill? Was curious and typed 'the' just to see what happens and The Prairie showed up fine, albeit it's a redirect.
Cool, that would preserve the edit history which was my only concern about moving articles

[strange wing]

The same issue would apply to any middle section search for the autofill. If I type "never sets" nothing autofills. Likewise, if I type "The Moon,"nothing autofills. However just pressing enter pulls up page title matches first, so searching Moon would immediately pull up the right article

[craggy wind]

Hopefully that makes sense, I am worn out.

May we switch to Simlish?

[strange wing]

I've never played Sims so can't speak Simlish myself xD but yeah you made sense.

I agree that having someone code it to parse other than the start of an article would be ideal. I think in the meantime the best we can do is to be the most inclusive we can be.

Right now, searching "Moon" pulls up the correct article in the drop down and if you press enter, but searching "The Moon" discludes the article from both so only 50% inclusion. If we change the article names to include "The", then searching "The Moon" pulls up the correct article in the drop down and if you press enter, but searching "Moon" would not show up in drop down, but would show up if you pressed enter, for 75% inclusion.

Hope you get some rest soon friend

[craggy wind]

have laptop again. woot!

We can create "The" versions of articles, which act only as redirects, but I'm trying to keep the wiki clean. It's already got some mess to it.

[strange wing]

Woot for laptop!
Yeah creating redirects might add a bit of bloat, but if we wanted to go that route I'd probably have Moon redirect to The Moon, since The Moon corrects the grammar issues elsewhere.

[strange wing]

How was the combat script (the one for when enemy attacks have names/characters talking mid fight) in the archive obtained btw? Was it filled by hand?

Asking bc there's a discrepancy where the combat script has a "Bewitching Arrow" listed for Dark Elf, which is unused as the mob in game only has 3 attacks. I'm curious if that's possible user error in copying data or if that's possibly a move that was cut, which would be neat to add to the trivia section.

[craggy wind]

It's a data dump, so we start raw and filter if necessary (same with enemy stats). The script isn't wrong, so it must be unused text or a broken move.

[strange wing]

Cool, that almost certainly means it was a cut move since the moveset data matches in game

[strange wing]

+Minor enemy articles from A to L have been updated to most recent changes, including encounter data & counterattack data. Also made trivia and synopsis entries uniform with style guide.

[strange wing]

+Corrected enemy names in Encounter Data spreadsheet and in LoD Internal Spreadsheet
+Updated/Created all minor enemy articles that begin with M (there were like 20 of them lol there's a lot of M named enemies)

[craggy wind]

enemy names??

What are you doing to our precious documentation!?

[balmy robin]

Mama mia, a manifold multitude of monstrous malevolents? Marvelous motivation to manufacture such masterfully magnanimous messages.

[balmy robin]

Merci

[strange wing]

XD

[balmy robin]

No mere magnet may mould MY mysteriously missing marbles

[strange wing]

Well, correcting it mostly lol

Sometimes tho I sneak in little easter eggs when no ones looking... shh... it's a secret to everybody~

jk jk xD

[craggy wind]

I'm docking points for that first word not starting with an M.

[strange wing]

"Mere magnets mayn't mould..." now we're talking

[balmy robin]

....metaphorically?

[craggy wind]

May many moths mire monsieur-Emerald's mountainous metroplexes.

[strange wing]

Technically, Merald would be pronounced the same as Emerald, wouldn't it?

[craggy wind]

now I'm paranoid.

Which Encounter Data? Unfortunately there are several. (ugh)

nvm I can extrapolate from the other doc

[strange wing]

How long has it been since the data in the archive has been double checked? Every time I do a project I uncover more errors lol

[craggy wind]

Welcome to my world lmao.

Revision history isn't highlighting the changes. Okay please tell me what you changed, and I will relent. xD

[strange wing]

Uhh a bunch of stuff this time around. Lemme think

[craggy wind]

fuck me

[strange wing]

Added spaces to a few names, like Mr.Bone -> Mr. Bone, MetalFang -> Metal Fang

Changed some instances of Spiral Shell to Screw Shell

[craggy wind]

Ahhhh. Hmmm. See that's why I ask, because the dump should've been a literal copy of what's used in-game, basically.

one sec pls, I have some insanity to tame.

[strange wing]

I also saw some instances of Will-O'-Wisp and corrected them to Will-o'-Wisp

[craggy wind]

Space in game... vert de furk

Fair enough.

but

https://tenor.com/view/always-be-ready-johnny-rose-johnny-eugene-levy-schitts-creek-gif-20787532

[strange wing]

Yeah I basically only correct data when I've confirmed it in game

[craggy wind]

I know. You're one of the few I trust to be that thorough.

when you are 108% trustworthy you will receive a, uh.. hmmm.... Dragoni Plant?

[strange wing]

lol is that gonna be a custom role xD

Changed Pot Belly -> Potbelly on the encounter sheet btw

[craggy wind]

Dragoni Steward? Maybe,

Next thing we know it's gonna say Mon ster instead of Monster. 🤦🏻

[strange wing]

Oh neat, Puck likely had a cut move called "Increase Morale" which kind of fits with its musical theme. Maybe it would have been a power up for allies or some other buff

[strange wing]

+Updated/Created all minor enemy articles that begin with O through R.

[craggy wind]

Ah thank you much

[craggy wind]

After your current session I request another brief pause. I just want to do some quick patrols, else the queue gets too long.

[strange wing]

Can do, just lemme know when I'm good to keep progressing

[craggy wind]

I will know more about my schedule shortly.

[craggy wind]

I can access my desk! For a few hours, anyway.

nice work copy-pasting a lowercase that in Moon that Never Sets haha!

@strange wing unfreeze. Keep in mind I am not able to patrol every minor mob article at this time (helping Zy with a special project). But from what I've seen they are looking really good so it's okay.

https://tenor.com/view/shattering-eyes-defrost-break-free-cold-ice-gif-14362498

[strange wing]

I knowwwwww ;-; xD At least I caught it like instantly but I felt so silly haha
Yeah the mob entries should be like 99.9% accurate with how much I'm double checking, but there's also just so many things to keep track of that it's possible some little things are slipping through. Things like not setting the category for the disc, or forgetting to add an ~ to some names would be really easy to overlook. Gonna go through every entry once I'm "done" for a final recheck just to catch everything that I can.

[craggy wind]

It's simple enough to merely generate a checklist of things all minor mob pages should have, check each element for one article at a time, and note any changes required. At this point it's best to finish the minor mob article list and then do this audit afterward.

[strange wing]

+Removed Sandora Elite (Hoax) from minor mob list, as this is a Boss (immune to total vanishing and magic sig stone)
+Properly linked Sandora Elite (Black Castle) to the Sandora Elite article (the article itself will be tackled along with bosses, so will remain incomplete for now)
+Removed the Sandora Elite (Hoax) entry as it is not a minor enemy
+Added Hellena Warden (With Fruegel), and added labels for the other two entries in the minor mob article
+Noted that the Crafty Thief (with Mappi) is not a minor enemy, and will include in the Boss page later
+Updated the internal doc with which sandora soldier is hoax vs marshland, and the same for sandora elite in name so its easier to tell at a glance
+Corrected and updated the info in the sandora soldier segments in the minor mob article

[craggy wind]

What do you mean when you say you removed the Sandora Elite (Hoax) entry?

Can Crafty Thieves (Mappi) not be TV'd and whatnot? If so, they're still minor mobs, just that they merely double as boss minions (as with Wardens and Senior Wardens)

[strange wing]

It was listed in the minor mobs section, but it's a boss.
Yeah Crafty Thief (Mappi) is immune to TV and Magic Sig Stone. If I'm not mistaken, the only references for grouping enemies in game is minor enemies, which are mentioned by magic sig stone and total vanishing. So for the page about minor enemies, I think we should only list enemies affected by those items to avoid confusion and inaccuracy.

[balmy robin]

can confirm, went through every boss a while ago to see how many uses demons gate has : Its really only for Fruegals pets.

[craggy wind]

And simple farming of minor mobs for rare drops.

[craggy wind]

I'm asking because you have two very similar line items about this in your message.

Item 1 and Item 3

[strange wing]

Ah, whoops that was actually me saying it twice because I typed things out as I did them xD

[craggy wind]

In that case, all acknowledged and accounted for. 👍🏻

[strange wing]

+Added Missing Fire Spirit and Magma Fish entries to the Minor Mobs article
+Removed the unfinished instance of Senior Warden, which turned out to be Fruegel's boss minion anyway
+Added some missing % for drops in the minor mob article
+Decided to split the Sandora Elite page into Sandora Elite (Black Castle) and Sandora Elite (Hoax) respectively, since one is a Boss and the other is a Minor Enemy, and there was no clean way to merge those two page layouts- especially given this is likely the only time we'll see a Boss share their exact name with a Minor enemy. I considered making it (Minor Enemy) and (Boss), but figured most users would know what they were looking at based on location rather than a designation of rank. Changing the original article to Sandora Elite (Hoax) as it already makes use of the Boss layout makes the most sense imo. I'll just make the Sandora Elite (Black Castle) article from scratch in the meantime.

• Will need your help to use the Move article tool you mentioned before; I assume that tool probably requires permissions I don't have. As an aside, any progress in granting me the ability to remove out-of-use templates or should I just make a big list so you can get them?
• Also I don't think I ever got that encounter rate by submap data, could you link me? I tried searching through the archive, but I didn't catch it.

[strange wing]

+Created a new infobox template, despite my best efforts not to need it, for minor enemies that need more than one image in their infobox
+Changed Spiky Beatle to Spiky Beetle in encounter doc
+Tidied up some trivia entries on Hellena Warden and Sandora Soldier

[craggy wind]

Ah good morning. :)

I am mid-sleep. Will respond later today when I have the brain to come correct. 🥴

[strange wing]

So far, the only things I'm not filling in are missing images, and one instance where I need to verify counterattack data which I'll do later, so for the most part these articles are nearly complete from a technical standpoint. Only info left I can think to add is the aforementioned submap encounter rate data.

Hit 100 minor enemy articles created/updated, only 28 more to go until completion

[craggy wind]

go for 108! There is no other way!!

[craggy wind]

while not without a potential negative, I recommend switching this part of the Minor Mob infobox to be left-aligned with IDs in front. Would be an overall cleaner display IMO

[craggy wind]

okay, switching away from secret business #1, back to public business #104

@strange wing perms elevated

https://tenor.com/view/brooklyn-nine-nine-brooklyn-99-b99-detective-chief-gif-11992137206915222591

Move/Delete are under the More dropdown, next to the other page options.

What do you need to move besides Spector? 😛

Also I don't think I ever got that encounter rate by submap data, could you link me? I tried searching through the archive, but I didn't catch it.

Main spreadsheet. Has lots of data, but make sure it's not missing anything from the following:

Spreadsheet 2.

If you wanna take on this task it'd be super helpful atm, and not just for the wiki. Would be nice to have this marked as .

mmmm. This may only cover encounters generated by player traversal, not on-contact or scripted encounters.

also missing wmap 2/3/4

[strange wing]

Yeah I think it'd be cleaner in this case, but some foes have multiple IDs for a formation so it'd ruin the clean look. I figure most people would probs be looking for specific formations if they're looking here, so this way they don't have to skip over the IDs for each line.

Sweet. LMAO I already made a new page for Specter before you sent this xD I didn't even know there was an incorrectly spelled one. Is there an easy way to double check for that? Would rather not have a bunch of outdated articles floating around lol. Only thing I can think of for moving rn is the Sandora Elite page for the bosses, and probs the location articles to the aforementioned "The" format for maximizing inclusivity. It'll be a bit of work to correct the broken links, but it'd be identical to have to code in an injection of "The" every time in the minor mob articles, plus it'll save on every instance moving forward so that'll help a bit at least. With the move tool existing, I probably will only use the deletion tool for templates that are unused/outdated. Is there a way to see all instances of a template in use, just to double check that I didn't miss any current uses and can correct them before deletion?

Yeah I can try and parse it out and double check for missing info. Should be really easy since anything missing is gonna stand out on the wiki like a beacon. Also gonna include escape% on encounters as well since I realized we can add that too. Before I add all this I'm probably gonna finish out the last few enemy articles just so everything is updated to a uniform standard.

Okay, in order to preserve the spector page, I'm gonna have to copy the data from Specter, then delete the page, then move Spector to Specter, then overwrite it with the copied code. Does that sound correct?

Wait, nvm, I can't read lmao. I usually catch typos on the main page, but this one slipped past me lol. I usually just click the red link on the minor mob page to create a missing entry, and the person before me had it written as Spector and that was close enough to Specter I didn't notice xD

Actually someone literally coded it to hide the typo?????

[craggy wind]

Ouchie!

catching up to your messages now.

when you say multiple IDs, do you mean the doppelgangers? :P i.e. Fire Spirit

[strange wing]

Nah I mean like this xD

Albeit this is the most extreme example lol

[craggy wind]

Although it counts as game knowledge, since those are not retail encounters I don't think it's something we should list. Not in an infobox, at least.

A lot of those are really not meant for use, as there are many which are spawned extra close to the player. So I think we should only focus on retail encounters.

the same way we don't list crashes or named mobs with nullstats

[strange wing]

Is there a note about which one/ones are retail encounters? I'm not seeing anything which indicates which ones are which

[craggy wind]

That's on the to-do list LOL

I can knock out most of them tomorrow if you like.

there are some notes about oddball entries in one of the sheets I linked.

[strange wing]

Sounds good
Gonna just leave it up until we know for sure, then will move the values which aren't actually encountered normally to trivia as game knowledge.

[craggy wind]

I already made a new page for Specter before you sent this xD I didn't even know there was an incorrectly spelled one. Is there an easy way to double check for that? Would rather not have a bunch of outdated articles floating around lol.

Mispellings can happen many ways, so it'd be a chore to think of them all and type them all. Instead, I recommend checking the master list of articles or the category lists (this one is for minor enemies), skimming all names at once. You can find these and many other classifications/tools on the Special page for the wiki. (a nice match for LoD, huh? )

should be a really fast process to check the minor enemy list.

Once you reply to that I'll answer the rest.

..... okay something went wrong.

The category for Minor Enemies only contains one solitary article: Spring Hitter.

[strange wing]

Looks like they're all in the category for Enemies

https://legendofdragoon.org/wiki/Category:Enemies

[craggy wind]

https://tenor.com/view/why-me-facepalm-stressed-star-trek-gif-14598957

[strange wing]

It's baked into the template for minor mobs, easy to fix

[craggy wind]

I'm laughing in dismay haha.

Did we figure out synchronized category assignment or some shit?

Ah, Kosmic changed this in Feb 2024.

If you're not editing it atm, I will fix that now.

Fixed.

This means that when you uplift Spring Hitter, cut the manual cat assignment.

Whoa, it's dynamically adding like 3 mobs to the count every second that i refresh the cat list.

[strange wing]

The only manual assignment I've been doing for categories is for the disc numbers anyway since I remove redundancies when I encounter them

Seeing the code in action like that is cool hehe

[craggy wind]

Yeah. I think we baked in Missing Info since it's a given for all articles for awhile, but in one of our audits we'll eventually decide to cut that too, going back to manual cat assignment on specific articles.

else we'll be like "wtf could possibly be missing? there is nothing left to add!"

Alright, moving to your other thingies.

Is there a way to see all instances of a template in use, just to double check that I didn't miss any current uses and can correct them before deletion?

See the Special link above for lists like that!

Also gonna include escape% on encounters as well since I realized we can add that too.

We have to talk about this first (as far as I know). I can access this part of the code in SC, but we had a somewhat-progressed dump and I can't find where it went. Since you can sleuth like me, I was hoping you'd be down for a quick search in the archive. I came up empty about 1-2 months ago, but haven't checked everywhere yet.

might save a ton of work, I just don't remember where it was. Perhaps an untitled sheet I forgot to name when importing. I better check for that when I get back to my desk.

lemme know if I missed a topic. Back soon.

[strange wing]

I found it here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ASt7nHqKm3F2UDaOur1qgzG2I_azjAkMzA4V6sGgcDA/edit?gid=1603043694#gid=1603043694

[craggy wind]

YOU FOUND MY BELOVED!!!

@strange wing okay so this doc is mega important.

[strange wing]

Lots of info here yeah haha

[craggy wind]

It is one of the most sacred documents, so don't mess it up or I'll pull a Miranda and mess you up.

[craggy wind]

https://tenor.com/view/im-watching-watch-you-eyes-on-you-kid-cute-gif-16282723

[strange wing]

lol sacred xD
Does correcting errors count as messing it up xD

[craggy wind]

TELL ME WHAT YOU CHANGED!!

i.e. it depends.

[strange wing]

Of course I'll tell you what I change- well when I remember, sometimes so much gets overhauled it's hard to keep it all straight 😛

[craggy wind]

seriously, be clear about what you change in that particular doc.

please and thank you.

[strange wing]

I was making a tongue in cheek joke; I've practically never left alterations undocumented

[craggy wind]

uh huh.

[strange wing]

I promise! That, and weren't we just talking about how low my error rate is? Practically nonexistent 😎 🤣

[craggy wind]

Uh huh...

[strange wing]

I read the combat script to see if there were any other cut moves for trivia, and actually found one more. Berserker is listed as having "Raise Energy" as their second attack in script, but in game it is Charging Spirit. I wonder if Raise Energy was a precursor to Charging Spirit or if it was a different buff entirely.

[strange wing]

+Renamed Fire Ball to Volcano Ball in encounter data

[strange wing]

+Added Guftas and Rodriguez to minor enemies
+Updated Senior Warden's location on the minor enemies page to be Hellena Prison (2nd Visit) as the wardens in the first visit are not minor enemies

[strange wing]

+Deleted prototype and superseded templates that were visible under the Unused Templates (ensuring they were completely obsolete.) There are still more I'll be removing later, once I've purged their usage (mostly bosses that I haven't touched yet still have some instances.)

• There are some left in the unused section, but I figured "sandbox" and "testing" were just for people to experiment with code so I let them be. Wasn't 100% sure what the purpose of "see also" was about so I didn't touch it, but it looks redundant (like writing out the code within the template would take less time than actually using the template itself) so unless you're opposed I'll remove that one too.
  +Categorized the templates I added so the "Cou##" templates are under "Category: Counter Data Template" and will be categorizing others as I go to help organize the uncategorized templates page since

[craggy wind]

Wait, why aren't you classing Senior Wardens as minor enemies? They very much are, especially if you're counting the unique pets.

[strange wing]

The senior wardens in the fight with Fruegel aren't affected by Total Vanishing, or any items that target minor enemies from what I could tell. That's about the only criteria we have to go on from the base game for defining what a minor enemy is- besides the standardization a lot of games are sorted into as "Bosses vs Non-bosses." I'm actually considering creating a new category, Boss Minions, since I think calling them minor enemies is gonna create confusion otherwise due to it being inaccurate by the game's own metrics. It'd also be nice bc Cleone, Snow Cannon, and Volcano Ball basically aren't listed at all right now. Also just for clarity, the minor enemies page still has senior wardens listed, since they do show up as minor enemies in the 2nd visit to Hellena, so I think most players looking for them in that article will find them and probably not even notice the location noting only 2nd visit. Same case for Crafty Thief

[craggy wind]

I am very grrrrrr about this. 🙃

I was planning on doing it anyway, so here's my hail-mary pitch. Either:

• Boss Minions get their own article category. Virtually identical to Minor Enemy, but solves the heresy. Can include a field for whether they are affected by death effects and such.
• Boss Minions do not get their own article to begin with. Since they only appear with the boss, their data can be baked into that boss's article. Many minions don't have enough content to qualify as a stub article, let alone a full one.

It sucks when I agree but disagree simultaneously. That should be against the laws of physics or something.

[strange wing]

Yeah I know what you mean. It's not cleanly divided since Cleone, Snow Cannon, and Volcano Ball only appear with their boss and at that point they basically feel like part of the boss, especially as they don't particularly feel like standalone enemies as opposed to powers which happen to be targetable. But then there's Senior Warden and Crafty Thief, who make things complicated since they both have minor enemy entries and feel standalone. Not to mention the number of people who will assume Crafty Thief with Mappi is the same as all Crafty Thieves. Senior Warden is at least obviously different in strength thanks to the gap between the 1st and 2nd visit, but Crafty Thieves are so close that I can't really fault anyone for making that mistake. I think I solved this issue in-article at least, so anyone visiting the Crafty Thief or Senior Warden pages will have everything laid out clearly, it's just not having them listed in the minor enemies overview article that kinda bites. (Granted, their entries are technically there thanks to having minor enemy variants, so a control-f still pulls up links to the articles.)

I'm really torn between the two options. I like the idea of having a "not minor enemies, but like, these guys aren't bosses or rare monsters lol" section, sort of analogous to the "Non-Status Ailments" section for Ailments due to the sheer volume of misunderstandings, but having it be in a seperate table would lose out on the stat comparisons feature. Maybe having a very obvious visual difference like having their text be Hot Pink or something to indicate "hey these boyos are different!" would be enough to prevent misunderstanding? At the same time, having individual articles for the three summons also feels a little wonky since a lot of their behaviors are tied to their summoner. Hmm, I think I've worked out how to merge the best of both ideas, but I want to sleep on it to look things over with fresh eyes

[craggy wind]

Yeah, it's a mess. The Crafty Thieves are at least more different than the Fire Spirit twins, but players won't typically notice.

We could choose to have those enemy cell BGs tinted. It's a good start, unless we think of something better right away. Trivial work, and can always be changed later.

looking forward to what you come up with.

[strange wing]

Okay so here's the idea.

1. Create a master list of all enemies in the game under Enemies, so that all foes in the game can be compared (would also be nice for seeing the points where bosses from earlier in the game are as strong as random encounters later haha.) It'll be the same table used in minor enemies, but just include everything.
2. Have the current tables remain on respective pages, so bosses, minor enemies, raremonsters, and boss minions would each get a table for their category that only has foes of that category. This way if people only want to sort by each type of foe, they can.
3. Boss minions get their own pages and integrated with their bosses
   -Get their own pages, to avoid confusion about "broken" or "wrong" links
   -Not necessarily redundant to have information available in multiple places if it avoids confusion or misinterpretation

While not a lot of information, boss minions have enough where their individual pages wouldn't look incomplete, and can have links to the boss pages. For Crafty Thief and Senior Warden, I think that their current pages work fine

[craggy wind]

1 & 2 - If we go with this, the tables for each grouping (minor, rare, boss, boss minion) should be put in a template. Enemies will pull them all, while the others only pull the respective table. This keeps information synced, and prevents us from potentially updating two tables whenever a change is needed (hopefully you sense what I mean there). The "Enemies" page would need some text at the top specifying it means "all enemies".
3 - I presume we should list the minion below the main boss on the boss article, with whatever their abilities and behaviors are. Keep in mind that there isn't need for any confusion about broken/wrong links because we have the anchor link feature (skips to the combat section on the boss article, aiming right at the little subsection for the minion). If the info is a literal copy-paste, then embedding in the boss article is preferable IMO. It's pretty common practice for stuff with little data to be simply embedded in a parent article with an anchor link.

Semi-related: shall we keep all rares on the group article with no individual articles? I lean toward group-only for that set.

While I'm thinking of it... since we don't use category pages anymore apart from system grouping (as it's not search-intuitive for the common viewer), we should edit each category's "content" with a single line pointing to the regular namespace equivalent. For example: Category:Bosses should have a single line pointing to Bosses.

That way, anyone who does end up clicking the Category assignment link at the bottom of an article will get pointed in the right direction for the extra content we've written.

[strange wing]

Agreed, a template would work best to prevent having to check multiple tables for editing info.
Ah, I had forgotten about anchor linking, good idea. In that case for boss minions that only show up in boss fights, I'll just anchor link them to their info in the boss page. I'd do the same for CT and SW, but honestly the explanation on their differences to their minor enemy counterparts is like the second sentence on the page so a regular link works fine.

I think we should give them the same treatment as the minor mobs. It'd be kinda hard to neatly include counter data, since some belong to group 28 and others to group 16, and with photos too, I can't think of a way to get that all to appear in the comparison tables when they're already pretty packed with info. Could have it separate, like in a second table, but that's gonna look odd when the other overview pages don't have the same format. Also there's probably going to be quite a few things that want to just link to the individual mobs, like their drops, statuses they use, the counter attack chart, etc.

Yeah that makes sense to me for ones people might end up on like bosses, probs unnecessary for things like templates unless we just want to explain what they're for. I experimented quite a bit with categories and templates last night getting the templates, but not their transclusions, to properly categorize without messing up the formatting. Sorry if you see a million template edits for the various Cou## and Dmg## templates 😅 At least I know how to do it right in one go now lol

Also since the system organizes categories alphabetically, I figure naming all categories for the templates as "Templates for X" would help keep them grouped and not jumble up the categories already there.

[craggy wind]

Fair enough on your middle paragraph. I am just a diehard about avoiding stub articles in most cases. It's a bias for sure.

Sorry if you see a million template edits for the various Cou## and Dmg## templates
I am happily ignoring those for the moment.

[craggy wind]

Can you give a few examples? Not sure which context you're referring to.

[strange wing]

https://legendofdragoon.org/wiki/Special:Categories

So like for this page, the categories are all listed out, but if you need to find the ones for Templates they're all right next to each other

https://legendofdragoon.org/wiki/Special:WantedCategories

Same for this one

[craggy wind]

Okay. Is it already how you want it, then, or are you wanting to break that up?

Something seems off, because when I click the category "Templates", it shows 18 articles, including one of the Sandboxes.

and none of them are actually templates, because they're in the wrong namespace. (except one)

[strange wing]

These are the ones I made, I didn't make the category that is just templates.

Yeah it's already how I want it, just letting you know in case you wanted to categorize other templates

Ah, yeah whoever made the Boss Template added a category without noinclude tags so it's applying to all bosses that make use of the template

[craggy wind]

I see. So you're just keeping similar templates together with the cat system. That's more than fine.

Oh, the idea was to have all templates be in the Templates category.

but this is covered by the corresponding "all templates" link on the Special page.

I'll swap this line to Missing Information to match Minor Mob template.

okay going back to your pitch

the template names are a hair too short for my liking but I understand the desire for brevity.

Seems you have a template for Phys but not Magic (would be "DmgMa"?)

HP templates are wicked smart for the current ability display. Kudos.

[balmy robin]

curiosity calling since I dont see it specifically mentioned, are boss parts going to fall under minions?

i.e. : arms, legs, tentacles, etc.

[craggy wind]

It may not be displayed exactly the same but basically yes. No reason for a standalone article for Virage Arm though - just on the main article

[strange wing]

Yeah probs just gonna make those a part of the boss article itself

Like their parts can go in the overview list for stat comparisons, but links will just anchor to the boss page

[craggy wind]

if you make articles for Left and Right Arm I will force you to write a wiki devoted entirely to Exodia.

[balmy robin]

cool, just wanted to put it out there for the sake of thoroughness

[craggy wind]

we'd never not include boss parts.

[strange wing]

Oh boy, so to summon exodia you have to get all five cards in your hand, or use polymerization thanks to one of the newer sets

[craggy wind]

they are deeply a part of the behaviors system so it's necessary to point out which abilities they govern, show their speed values, etc.

[craggy wind]

Yes, and you'll never finish it because LoD has no Leg body parts.

[strange wing]

Welp, only logical thing to do is invent time travel, become fluent in Japanese, go back and join the LoD dev team and make the leg parts

[craggy wind]

I would argue the logical thing to do is follow my lead. :P

[strange wing]

Yeah, but there's not actually any pure magic damage in the game since they're all transcribed into the elements system. So there's DmgFi for all fire-elemental magic damage.

[strange wing]

Thanks, but I can't take credit for this one. Someone already had this idea worked out when I got here. I did add in one or two missing ones tho

[craggy wind]

ahhhhh okay that explains it.

better to split it

[balmy robin]

exodia boss requested. Thanks Drew

[craggy wind]

zomg

wait

exomg

[strange wing]

Can I get a source for this since it's external?

[craggy wind]

JP guidebook, I believe.

It shouldn't be exposed like that (we stay in-character as a general rule sans mechanics).

[strange wing]

What page number?

[craggy wind]

I am mega tired, please ask a translator or ping me tomorrow!

probably the section header for them in the guidebook. They get a little spot for them.

[craggy wind]

found duplicate category: Disc1 (no spaces, should have space). I'll clear it tomorrow.

[strange wing]

+Created the Enemies page, but am holding off on adding the table until I get other stuff out of the way first

[craggy wind]

Sounds good. I saw you mention text boxes in the other channel. I'm all for LoD-ifying the wiki, but would like to know how you intend to apply it. Probably best to do that big of a change in a sandbox first.

[strange wing]

I'd like to know how I'll apply it too xD
I haven't the faintest idea at the moment, still just figuring out what's possible.

[craggy wind]

Definitely set up your personal sandbox if you haven't already - it was very helpful for myself and others.

[strange wing]

Will look into it 💙

[craggy wind]

If you dunno the convention just let me walk you through it next chance we get.

[strange wing]

+Created two more categories and sorted the appropriate templates into them.

[craggy wind]

It's conceptually amusing that there's a page for uncategorized categories.

fixed broken category assignment on Prairie.

(if you add "The" I will make like a Salamander and stunlock you)

[strange wing]

Adds The to every single page, even the ones that like didn't need it like "The Poison, The Claire"
Alt: I just make every page like a listing from Wish.
The Moon The Never Sets, Moons, Moon, Set, Moonset, Birthday, His/Hers/Theirs, Celebration, Gift, Gaming, Video Game, Gift for Retro, Retro, Legend of Dragoon, The Legend of Dragoon, Legend of the Dragoon, The.

[strange wing]

Is a sandbox different from the show preview option? Looking at what it's used for on media wiki and it seems about the only use I could think of for it would be for templates, but we've already got the template:sandbox for that.

[craggy wind]

Sandboxes are merely pages. As such they have all the same functions as our typical in-character articles, like the preview button. Not all wikis use them, but we do to test large changes before putting them on their intended articles.

@strange wing Template:Sandbox is deprecated. You're looking for these instead. The first two are general sandboxes anyone may edit or add to, occasionally cycling out older material. The others are per-user sandboxes only they may edit. You would simply create Project:SandboxWulves as your personal sandbox.

Sandbox1 (currently a test for the new front page)
Sandbox 2 (boss layout)
SandboxDrew
SandboxDWrecks
SandboxHumi

These are kept in the Project namespace.

Benefits include "clean-room" testing away from neighboring code, as well as reducing edits on production articles in case something new causes a big mess.

[strange wing]

Will keep that in mind. Also looking into stylizing the media-wiki and so far it looks like a custom skin would be the way to do it.

[craggy wind]

Yes, that's been in the queue for awhile. If you want to help, please do start a custom skin.

See this help article.

[strange wing]

Yeah that's the one I've been reading. Looking at other people's on open source to see if I can't just yoink what I need because tbh if I can just get text overtop an uploaded image I think I can at least make the tables look cool. Would like to have them maybe be similar to the battle-end screen, or like the in game menus perhaps. Been pretty inspired by Senerio's bestiary, love me a ui that reflects the original style of the game. Blame the years I spent trying to be a graphic designer haha

Oh yeah, what version of Mediawiki are we on?

[craggy wind]

I feel that. We can aso apply skins just for our logged-in account, so it is easy to test without affecting the general appearance. Once we have something in great shape we can set that as the default appearance.

[craggy wind]

We're currently on MW 1.39.8. Later this year we'll be switching to 1.43 LTS.
See: Special:Version on our wiki, and Version Lifecycle on the MW website.

[craggy wind]

Checking for theme compatibility?

[strange wing]

Yeah, might as well make sure the code works on this build before I start reverse engineering it lol

[strange wing]

+Edited and added to the Tesfer article

[craggy wind]

Ref=LoDOG ... LoD Dog? Legend of Dog? j/k

I may need to revise or rollback your change to Tesfer.

[strange wing]

Why?

[craggy wind]

I'm pretty certain Soa is not just implied to be the Tesfer administrator.

[strange wing]

I read through the jp translation spreadsheet and couldn't find a direct confirmation, lemme know if you do

[craggy wind]

I carefully wrote it the way I did because of those translations. I know it's not fully clear as one of them is worded as an implication, but another is not. Soa seeded the world, and had at least some intention of said life being completely wiped out. It would be weird for the book to mention administrators, and then mention a non-admin by name with no indication of who the admin is.

I will cite page 66: Soa, the creator, would also be called a great god.

[strange wing]

Yeah with how it's written in the translation it's only implied since the only mention of administrators I found doesn't mention Soa, even in the text leading up to or afterwards, unless you meant more like, it'd be weird for them to mention administrators and then leave the role empty. It would be weird, but I mean they name the continent as Endiness and the dimension itself as Tesfer but leave out the name of the planet, so I don't want to make any assumptions. I don't think being called a god is definitively being called an administrator, especially when the very next paragrapgh has, "the Winglies were as gods." That said, I don't think there's any real chance of Soa not being the administrator, and I think it is very strongly implied to the point where it has basically done everything except stating it directly. For keeping to the facts, I've been operating under keeping things technically correct, rather than having things which are practically correct but technically incorrect or incomplete. Unless there's an error in the translation, the guidebook technically doesn't name the administrator, so I figured it's better to play it safe

[craggy wind]

I can understand about the planet, for sure. However, I'm not saying a god is an administrator. I'm more saying this is canonically Soa's plan. There may be more concrete statements but I don't remember off-hand. That said, while the majority of the translations have been great, note that there can certainly be errors. There are numerous spelling mistakes, and I've had to repair a few translations that were mistakenly wrong.

For this issue it's best to defer to the translators for a final word. So let's bring in @rose sinew and @modern vector. Can you two please check for the intention of any/all statements regarding Soa? We have an amicable dispute as to whether they are only implied, or confirmed, as the Tesfer administrator.

[rose sinew]

Char's favorite topic!

[modern vector]

Page 408 in the guidebook outlines Tesfer and implies Soa is the admin or caretaker (管理者)

[modern vector]

i'm eye rolling so hard at this lmao

[craggy wind]

I believe it's outright confirmed, but my stomach ache wants to have bad timing and impede my will to go data-hunting.

[modern vector]

Soa also has the title of creator (創造主ソア) since they are the one that planted the Divine Tree

[craggy wind]

Possible related question: Would you take Creator and Administrator as interchangeable in this context?

i.e. page 66

[strange wing]

Yeah could be an issue of differing synonyms. Like administrator and god/creator in english aren't terribly interchangeable, but they could be in Japanese.

[modern vector]

Hmmm, i don't think I would personally. The kanrisha [管理者] (caretaker) title implies that something gave them the realm and they are free to watch or interfere as they see fit. Like Soa is a part of something larger than the people of Tesfer could conceive. But that's just a personal opinion

[craggy wind]

If it's theirs and they have free reign, I'd take that as admin. But we already know that Soa is part of a huge space-time organization a-la the TVA or the Q continuum.

with zero fucking details because of course the devs would say only the minimum and leave the rest as a cosmic cliffhanger.

[strange wing]

If you do find any kind of concrete statement, snag the page number so I can cite it xD

[modern vector]

創世主, and 管理者 are different in Japanese, enough to the point that you'd be calling the god of the world a supervisor of Earth

[rose sinew]

管理者 is definitely more clinical and business-like, while 創世主 has a holy vibe

[craggy wind]

To circle back a bit, I did intend for page numbers to be added for every statement that isn't from in-game. The article was merely from before we got rolling with the reference tag in general. I hope that helps, if you were wondering why I didn't do that.

reference work began with.. the Hellena Prison article? It was the model prototype for our new Location standards and layout.

[strange wing]

The devs either giving us some seriously mixed messages on Soa's vibes or they're just like, let's mention an entire department above even the most powerful named character for the lols

[craggy wind]

an article that is basically 108% complete with no missing sections.

[jovial lava]

Honestly, i'd go with Occam's Razor here, but 🤷‍♂️

[craggy wind]

Occam's Razor is a weird name for an admin, but okaaaaaay.

eyeroll emoji
sarcasm emoji

[strange wing]

Thanks for helping with the translations @rose sinew @modern vector 💙

[craggy wind]

I am somewhat of the same mind, but i don't want to destroy Wulves' sole chance to correct me on some bleeding-edge lore. :P

[strange wing]

Don't worry I'm editing the Endiness article right now

jk jk xD

[craggy wind]

[strange wing]

(no but seriously I am editing the Endiness article but there's not like big changes I'm just adding more locations that weren't included like Rouge lol)

[craggy wind]

Did I not put in the Broken Islands?

I hope I did that much at least.

Ah, I didn't. I also didn't write those territories quite right... the interpretation can be a little ambiguous but still.

Eventually that article will have section headers for each region. Serdio (aka Basil/Sandora), Tiberoa, Mille Seseau, Broken Islands, miscellaneous, and external places like Vidalio.

I'll piggy-back off of whatever you construct.

[strange wing]

Sounds good, I actually ended up here because I was like, oh I included Endiness in the first sentence of Enemies, how far along is that? and then I was looking at that page and like, oops that link to tesfer is red, guess it doesn't exist- unless it does and the- yeah the link is broken. Okay now I gotta read page since I'm gonna fix the link. Wait no references? I can add those, lemme look through the translation spreadsheet. huh, better also check the game scripts in case that was where this was coming from. Welp, guess I'm gonna need to edit somethings here and there.

tldr my adhd go brrrrrrr

[craggy wind]

Indeed. Most of the brevity is intentional (or there's literally only a scrap of intel). Lore-based articles are not as uniform as other classes of things such as Locations or Bosses. They're all story-focused but their total length, topical orbits, and so on will vary wildly. We don't have a style guide for them yet, although it won't be hard to write one. We just need to do that work before proceeding much further. As the only long-time active loremaster most of that content falls to me anyway, as other editors haven't really sunk into the material or checked all the resources we have. So I got us started with a few, to help flesh out the wiki and give it some versatility until we could solidify some guiding principles.

https://tenor.com/view/are-we-on-the-same-page-alexis-rose-alexis-annie-murphy-ted-gif-20787620

Also you are the Ted to my Alexis on the Tesfer thing.

[strange wing]

Don't know who those are for the context 😅

+Added some locations to Endiness article, would've added more but sleep is unfortunately summoning me

[craggy wind]

Watch Schitt's Creek!

I'll take over, no prob.

[strange wing]

Well, this is awkward. Commander in the marshlands is: immune to total vanishing, but is susceptible to magic sig stone, and statuses. I love one off exceptions of otherwise clean and tidy rules 🙃

Incidentally, I also have discovered that the enemy move probabilities we have mapped out are exlusively for non-boss fights. All boss minions are discluded as well, even the ones who are also minor enemies. This is probably the cleanest correlation to having some concrete evidence for which enemies the devs considered bosses. Magician Bogy and Commander (Marshland) are both included, so they're considered minor enemies which fits with the fact they aren't status immune.

The only abberant behavior for them is that obviously they are limited in encounter, which is normally a trait of bosses. If they weren't like, the only two in the whole game, I'd consider giving them a class like, Minor Boss or Mini Boss, but for so few entries it feels more like trivia than a class of enemy.

Oh, this also lets me know which of the two Hellena Warden entries are which, so that info is now in the enemy move probabilities

[craggy wind]

Yes, this was identified some time ago. Long-story short, some bosses have a hidden chance to simply do nothing on their turn. It's why Virage II can be lethal or a total cakewalk depending on the RNG. We don't yet know what the chance is they'll use any given attack (except retaliatory stuff). It's in the game code, altered by scripts apparently, so that's a fine howdy-do.

[strange wing]

+Investigated why the header won't center, on sortable tables. There are invisible arrows which are meant to be visible throwing things off. Either an aesthetic choice or a bug in mediawiki is preventing them from rendering.
+All Minor Enemies minus the Rare Monsters subgroup have had their personal pages created and generally updated. There's definitely going to be some minor errors here and there just because of the sheer volume of stuff I added or changed. If I made one error in about 400 changes there should be about a dozen or so articles with an error hiding around.

[craggy wind]

Might be intentional, will take a look in a few hours to see if I recognize it.

[strange wing]

+Corrected 00PARTS to OOPARTS in encounter data

[craggy wind]

Best edit by far.

[thorn ruin]

Pretty sure it's actually 0's ingame

[craggy wind]

I only recall that it's in caps lock.

Now you have me curious.

Actually the dump would certainly clarify

mmm, yep that's zero. Retail bug! XD

@strange wing wanna be a rebel with me?

[jovial lava]

Bold assumption that it's not intentional

[craggy wind]

I know, right?

Zero zero place artifacts, I guess.

[strange wing]

Honestly I grabbed the name data from SC's little combat debugger since I assumed that draws from the game code directly

[craggy wind]

That interface is showing you capital O's?

[strange wing]

Yeah

[craggy wind]

Does the game have both?

[upper hatch]

no i was just showing the difference

[craggy wind]

Well, an old dump showed zero . So I'm confused.

[upper hatch]

what dump?

[craggy wind]

Unstretched

One of the ones in the archive. Slow Internet in this driveway, sorry.

[strange wing]

The internal game info dump has it correct as OO, the encounter data which I'm thinking was input by hand given the volume of errors was 00

[craggy wind]

It's possible.

[craggy wind]

Bravery payoff!

[upper hatch]

if it's by hand it's not a dump 😛

[craggy wind]

We just need some doc cleanup.

[upper hatch]

i never made the dump but you don't even have to decompress a BPE file, you can just look up the LOD text encoding for "mantis" and the table is right there.

[craggy wind]

https://tenor.com/view/doc-brown-back-to-the-future-when-you-remember-when-you-cant-remember-if-christopher-lloyd-gif-5381579

[thorn ruin]

It's o's

[craggy wind]

My ailing memory was right!

@strange wing not sure if I mentioned it the other day, but I will be making at least one correction on your Endiness edit. It's easy to miss, but the latitude and longitude lines are nonsensical unfortunately. We can't use them for scale. I'll fix it while expanding the locations from where you left off recently.

.. you asked about this before, heh. #🐲legend-of-dragoon message

[strange wing]

No worries; that part was already there when I got there lol

Did you not patrol the person who edited it before me?

[craggy wind]

.......... it was me!?!? Impossibubbles.

i was lied to.

pardon my error, I guess being right about OOPARTS had a hidden cost.

@craggy wind I will be making at least one correction on your Endiness edit. It's easy to miss, but the latitude and longitude lines are nonsensical unfortunately. We can't use them for scale.

[strange wing]

Not necessarily about the wiki, but I'm pretty sure I've found that modifier order matters for damage calculations so the damage formula document we have is gonna get updated. For reference, I made it so Haschel's addition dealt 1,000 flat to make it easy to see modifiers. Made the enemy afraid, and it went to 2K as expected. Then powered up, and we're dealing 3000, so far so good. But once I throw in power down, the damage I'd expect is 4,500, but instead is coming out at 4,000. If the modifiers are applied as just flat multipliers, it should be 1000 x (1.5 x 1.5 x 2) which totals 4,500 no matter how you arrange the modifiers. However the result I'm seeing is combining the +50% from power up and power down instead, for +100% or x2. I recall this is how it works in retail as well, so I'm pretty sure this is intended. I don't think I've tested all the possible modifier interactions, but I'll at least double check how this interacts with an enemy using power up on themselves as well

Okay interesting. If you hit a foe that's powered up with a power down, they don't mix, the power down just overwrites the power up entirely.

[strange wing]

Alrighty, rewrote the formula a bit to account for this. This actually removes 4 modifiers, and adds 1, so things are actually going to look a bit tidier as a result which is nice. If anyone knows of any other weird interactions with damage modifiers let me know

[strange wing]

I also realize I can cut down on some redundancy by having things written to automatically disclude circumstances that are impossible (an attack being both the same element as the enemy and their opposite, for example) So it should look even better in a bit

[craggy wind]

Good morning.

[strange wing]

Morning

[craggy wind]

Are we about to have another instance of "wasn't this a raw dump formula that can't be wrong?"

https://tenor.com/view/making-an-entrance-bob-barker-buzzr-here-i-come-i-have-arrived-gif-18314177375404235611

[thorn ruin]

The formulas are code so they can't be dumped, just interpreted by a person

[craggy wind]

Well, you know what I mean. Code is code, sort of thing.

The interp was provided by tfz, I believe. @jovial lava we have an interesting development for ya. #1194378507032211467 message

[strange wing]

Looking back through from years ago and the original had it as correct. I think I made the math error when converting the percent values to make multiplication easier. Accidentally took (100 + 50, 0 + 50, 0) and made it (1 x 1.5, 1 x 1.5, 1) thinking it worked out the same. Funnily enough, I probably tested this to make sure they came out the same, but only tested them individually which are actually the same 150% vs x1.5 and only when combined do they come out different 200% vs x2.25

Found this all out bc I was adding Destroyer Mace to the damage calc doc since I realized it bypasses Rare Monster's damage mitigation xD

[craggy wind]

well it's still mitigated.. just a 2 instead of a 1 haha.

also

https://tenor.com/view/aha-shout-scream-point-gif-727062754941698905

[strange wing]

You know it's wild no one else noticed, it's been wrong for like over a year. I guess not many people were using power down and power up simultaneously during testing?

[craggy wind]

Probably not.

and yes, things stay wrong awhile until one day they're noticed. :P

That's why I try to keep us vigilant and re-examining things once in awhile.

[strange wing]

Yeah but like, over a year? I think that qualifies as a bit more than awhile lol. I guess it was probably due to how niche it was. Well, thanks @strange wing for catching this; keep up the thorough testing xD

[craggy wind]

I see you have joined me in the self-referential madness.

[strange wing]

I have finally gotten around to testing the locations for rare monsters to be encountered. So far of the suggested locations almost all of them have checked out. The exception seems to be from Furni the Water City to Evergreen Forest for Red Bird. After around 50 battles I gave up. If anyone else can get this encounter, let me know. Oh, and also some suggestions for lohan to kazas for a bunch of them for some reason. I still tested with 50 encounters, but I'm thinking those were inaccurate since the road leading out of lohan to nest of dragon is cursed jar and the road out of kazas toward hellena is OOPARTS, and it'd be wild for a third rare monster to be sandwiched between them like that. That said, if anyone sees anything let me know.

I still have some other locations I'm going to check.

[strange wing]

The Encounters by Submap ID spreadsheet you shared with me has the same typos in the name spellings as the encounter document had before I corrected them. Was this a data dump that was then filled in by hand for what data meant what?

[craggy wind]

I can only give a partial answer. From what I recall, some of the dump had empty names, and were listed as Autocomplete. This probably doesn't account for every custom write-in, but at least some had to be entered manually for a fact. I'd tag Zy but he should be sleeping now, if not soon. He's flipping his sleep schedule today. But we can ask him afterward if needed.

[strange wing]

No worries, just wanted to confirm that some entries were done by hand, so it's possible there's errors to be mindful of.

[craggy wind]

Yes for any that had Autocomplete in the original dumps.

[strange wing]

Bad news, there's already problems. The road in front of Bale has Yellow Bird a lot of the time, to the point where I'm convinced it's the entry with two yellow birds (45%). I literally got it 7 times in a row a bit ago. However, the spreadsheet has it listed that the entry where it's 45% is supposed to have slime and ugly balloon, but in game it's bats and ugly balloon.

Actually it's probably easier to just say it like this: there is a road directly in front of Bale where yellow bird appears, where slimes do not appear, and that isn't possible according to the spreadsheet. I think screaming bats and slimes are flipped. Also it might be bad luck, but the very first entry I checked has errors that I was lucky enough could be deduced through observation. Is there an OG dump and method for parsing it that I could use to double check these?

[craggy wind]

what entry with two yellow birds?

you mean two of the four slots are a single Yellow Bird?

[strange wing]

Yeah

[craggy wind]

@gilded flower I believe you sent us some of this data. If so, think you can help us solve some of these quandaries?

[strange wing]

Yeah the more I investigate this the more the information isn't lining up with in game. I don't know if it's just the monsters that are in the wrong spots or if the probabilities at the top are wrong too. Like I know OOPARTS has to have a higher chance than just 10%, because out of about 20 battles he showed up 13 times. Plague Rat is supposed to be 35%, and I saw it once. I'm all for anything's possible, but OOPARTS being this common is consistent from every playthrough I've done.

While it isn't defined, I assume a segment is a road and the end points are locations and intersections. Also the number of segments is pretty close to the number of roads using that definition. If so, OOPARTS only shows up once in the sheet, but there are two confirmed roads where it appears.

There are more issues I could list, but honestly there's enough going wrong with this right now that I think we should label the spreadsheet as "Inaccurate - Work in Progress" just so no one rooting through the archives mistakes this as solid info.

[craggy wind]

Sounds like you should help me straighten out the archive. :P
Go ahead with the warning label. Are we still talking about the doc that's mostly for submap encounters?

[strange wing]

I would but I don't have the OG dump or the methods for actually parsing the data myself. As for this one, I can at least generate a document for verified encounters on the world map

[craggy wind]

That is what you'd be helping me check on. Come on, be brave!

grab your machete - or Martel's giant knife - and we'll cut through the jungle.

[strange wing]

I mean if you can get me the OG dump you used and the method for parsing it, I don't mind going through it, I just can't do anything without those as I don't know how to extract or parse that info myself.

[craggy wind]

We ... we will find out. :)

it's been too long since we had an audio call, so let's make a date of it.

[strange wing]

+Updated Rare Monsters and added their individual pages

[craggy wind]

What did you find about the road segments as it relates to Rares?

[strange wing]

I removed any general statements and included only the info I was able to verify. So stuff like, "OOPARTS can be found between Lohan and Hellena" is now way more specific in that it says something like, "between Kazas and Hellena Prison intersection." On their individual pages I went so far as to define each road specifically to avoid assumptions about what was included, and also if there was any super big tells I included the vague (Commonly) or (Rarely) just so that people who are looking for grind spots don't just go to the first on the list which might be pretty rare, when there's a location that's fairly common. I do need to go through and test the individual locations being touched and then run the roads, as discussed in sc's test lobby, but otherwise they're pretty much done for the moment.

[strange wing]

@craggy wind How familiar are you with mediawiki's gadgets? I was looking around for how to make a sticky header for the minor enemies table to remove the need for stat markers, and it looks like it's available as a gadget that you can add to the wiki.

Here's the page overviewing it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Gadgets#gadget-StickyTableHeaders
And here's the specific gadget I'm referring to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Gadgets/export/StickyTableHeaders

+Updated an entry for minor enemies table, and reworked the stat markers to be cleaner

[craggy wind]

I skimmed them once upon a time. If we could have a single sticky header row, that'd be idea.

[strange wing]

Well good bc that's literally what I sent you xD

[craggy wind]

I only have vague recollection that our team investigated it before with much frustration.

Will look soon

[craggy wind]

@strange wing worth a try. I'll import it this evening!

mmmm it's already evening.

Possible snag

i have all perms, so it must be that js/css edits are disabled at the system level?

I followed the other part of the instructions so it's in place: https://legendofdragoon.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Gadgets-definition

https://tenor.com/view/what-can-you-do-gif-14355325654165871840

[strange wing]

Will look into work arounds when I'm free and see what I can find out

[strange wing]

Okay so I'm just gonna go through standard troubleshooting steps. I tried to see what permissions you have, or even what I have, but couldn't find anything other than my designation (administrator) which unfortunately doesn't actually say what my permissions are lol. So, first up is make sure you have this role/these permissions

From there, we need to make sure the gadgets extension is actually installed.

Having checked our version, I don't see gadgets extension so this might be the issue we're having

[strange wing]

Looking around at the specific error you got, and you likely need to edit the localsettings.php and add 'js' and 'css' to it in the same manner as this example I found

[craggy wind]

(o_0)

[strange wing]

Oh yeah also the internal dump has another error. Lists Shirley as having 0 gold and exp, but...

[craggy wind]

That's not an error, it's a scripted value. Do not change it.

[strange wing]

Scripted value? How do you mean?

[craggy wind]

The value posted is correct. The EXP is assigned separately.

To a player there's no difference. However, let's imagine someone mods this value as part of a rebalance. The player will not get the value put in that table cell.

I think we discovered it around the time I started my first 0-EXP run.

or earlier.

[strange wing]

Okay then we should add a note explaining that, so that people don't think the spreadsheet has inaccuracies, and so I don't add misleading information to the wiki. Are there any other discrepancies like this?

[strange wing]

+Changed Doel to Emperor Doel for the encounter data doc
+Changed Doel (Dragoon) to Dragoon Doel for the internal doc

[strange wing]

Found another wiki page that needs to move. It should be Home of Giganto, not Home of Gigantos

[craggy wind]

Have you tried being instead? j/k please feel free to add a note.

[craggy wind]

I still wish for us to move to modernized speech i.e. Dragon's Nest / Shirley's Shrine. If we're going ahead with that, I think the plural seems more fitting?

[strange wing]

Hmm, thinking it over and I think it's better to stick with what's used in game to prevent mild confusion. Otherwise you have to include a lot of "Called Nest of Dragon in game, Dragon's Nest is..." at which point it's a fair bit of extra work for a stylistic difference. That and people are going to generally use the names in game when looking stuff up.

Also modernizing the language is like adding another layer of translation, which creates opportunities for personal preference. Like I could see any of these being equally valid and various people arguing for different ones: Dragon's Nest / Feyrbrand's Nest/ Dragon's Lair / Feyrbrand's Lair / Feyrbrand's Forest / etc, and there's not like an objective "right" one over any of the others, so then the wiki starts to feel more subjective bc it was just up to the preference of whoever was editing at the time.

I could also see people being like, "wow the wiki has it as Dragon's Nest when it's Nest of Dragon; if they can't even get the name right, most of this is probably riddled with similar errors"

[craggy wind]

I see your point, I just hate saying Nest of Dragon when Dragon's Nest is more accessible.

in my observation wikis do need to be exact for just about everything, but sometimes the spirit of the wording is more effective than carrying over a devteam's errors. Like when we correct the damage listings for D-magic, although it's not a direct comparison.

I'll relent, given that if we justify some it'd set a precedent for changing lots of things that don't need to / shouldn't be changed.

(also, what if we set up things like Dragon's Nest as a redirect to Nest of Dragon? <_< )

[thorn ruin]

Redirects are fine but I would use the official name for the articles

[craggy wind]

Hi Corey, welcome to happy fun time. :P

[thorn ruin]

https://tenor.com/view/angry-cat-grumpy-cat-gif-3255620432886759515

[craggy wind]

purrfection.

[strange wing]

Yeah I think redirects would be fine too. Will move Giganto over in a moment

Incidentally also just found the same for Tower of Flanvel -> Flanvel Tower

[craggy wind]

Okies

[craggy wind]

@strange wing success!

I think this also works as a solution to the disagreement over the inclusion of "The" in select location articles. Instead of futzing with advanced autocomplete in search, we can just do this for now.

[strange wing]

Works for me, I think I've changed my mind a bit about including The, if it isn't in line with what's used in game. It'll be a pain, but I'll manually rewrite all instances of the tag's use to be grammatically correct.

Also the stats for the Ghost Variants of the Dragon Spirits is missing or unlabelled in the internal doc. Will try and see if I can find a blank/dummy name that has identical stats and drops. Otherwise can't tell if the exp and gold is coming from the ghosts or if it's scripted like Shirley since the Dragon Spirits themselves are listed as dropping none

Found it, Cell 183 is Ghost Feyrbrand

[craggy wind]

The tags? I'm not sure what you mean. The squarebracket hyperlinks?

[strange wing]

The "Auto Complete" entry here is Ghost Feyrbrand from the optional boss fight in Mayfil (not to be confused with Dragon Spirit from the same fight)

[craggy wind]

Yeah there's two entities sorta, which can fuck with debuffs IIRC.

[strange wing]

Ah, sorry, yeah I mean the hyperlinks. Like in the minor enemies the template data has baked grammar that isn't super flexible, so it gets a bit wonky when it's "x is a minor enemy located in Moon.." but if I add "the" to the template to fix it, other locations now sound odd like "x is a minor enemy located in the Hellena Prison"

[strange wing]

Yep, I remember discovering that and us all discussing it at the time

Still wild that you can power down and deal more damage, but its damage is unaffected since it's technically another entity making the attack xD

[craggy wind]

Yeah, like an invisible Virage part.. but only for half of it like you said. so weird.

[craggy wind]

Ahhh, I think I understand.

We can rework the template so it's flexible.. like "Location: {{{LocationName}}}." However, at that rate it's more of a stat you put in an infobox.

the best I can say is.. there might be a way? But I am not sure. Let me start with a similar issue, regarding singular and plural for treasure chests. As you know I've got "There is one / are two" flexibility for chest count as part of the Location article layout (the chest text is its own template).

Take a look at the code here. It factors for singular/plural. Perhaps we can do something like this for "the / no the"?

maybe not possible, but thought you should know some types of special handling are possible.

I'm gonna make some more redirects for a little bit.

[strange wing]

I'll check it out in a bit and see if it's possible. Otherwise maybe adding it to the infobox would be the easiest fix.
+Found and labelled Ghost Feyrbrand and Ghost Regole in the internal doc

[craggy wind]

Didn't we already have it there?

I will say I think it helps justify/fill out the individual articles when it's in the synopsis, however. And in turn, that helps the mouse-over popup text feel a bit less empty.

mmmm we need to percolate more.

[strange wing]

The info is there, it's just labelled as "Auto Complete"

+Did the same for Divine Dragon Ghost

[craggy wind]

You're talking about Game Info Internal, yes?

i thought we cleared all the autocompletes a long ass time ago.

either way, appreciated.

wait

nononononononoo

I was asking about the Minor Enemy infoboxes.

I thought their location was already included as part of the infobox.