#📄Wiki

1 messages · Page 2 of 1

craggy wind
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however, that would be a full ten six years before typical services like Google Translate.

strange wing
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True, was there anyone listed in the credits as translator?

craggy wind
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like much of the game, the script simply wasn't QA'd well enough.

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voice consistency and direction, music volume leveling, etc. So it was an issue from the top down.

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not even necessarily to say the leadership was "bad," just that the game project was too ambitious and they probably didn't realize it.

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I don't remember. Mobygames says no, and last I checked their credit list matched in-game credits.

strange wing
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Yeah I can totally see that, I like the bot theory for the translation because the alterantive is there was like no QA checking lol

craggy wind
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Well, that's simply true anyways haha

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As with many games of that era.

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In any event, you raised some good questions. I think it'll help to specify these things somewhere for editors. Maybe as part of a small write up on intended policy?

strange wing
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I think it would be a boon to have an onboarding document to just link people with a fleshed out explanation when they ask. I think it'd be good to have one for each type of project like one for wiki, one for translation, one for testing, etc. I'm down to write those out to the best of my ability if that helps

craggy wind
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I'll get one started when I get back to my desktop this afternoon.

thorn ruin
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I mean, the first machine translation was done in the 50s

modern vector
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Didn't see this until now. I am if you still need me. I'm away for the weekend and will be back Sunday night but I can take a look this coming week

craggy wind
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Yes please, non-urgent.

strange wing
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Literally those scripts in the archive are invaluable for writing wiki entries. Control + f to search makes it infinity times faster than rooting through a playthrough for dialogue that may not exist

craggy wind
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Yes, that's part of why we have it haha. First reason is posterity, but it also benefits many other things at the same time.

strange wing
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Every dialogue line mentioning Serdio is clearly used as either the name of the continent or as the country which split into Sandora and Basil. I think it's safe to assume the war bulletin description in the goods list, "Special Edition shows tension among Sandora and Serdio" is just a typo and should be Sandora and Basil instead. I'm going to start a list of the in game discrepancies I catch, I think it would be worth including in the onboarding document you've been writing to help pre-empt possible confusion from future writers.

craggy wind
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Yes, we should erect a list of known issues.

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There is also the matter of whether to use exact text for sake of canonicity, even when it's wrong.

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The two leading options are to do that and specify corrections under the table, or write proper descriptions and specify original text under the table.

strange wing
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I'd vote to correct inaccuracies like we've already established with the instances of Sandoras. We could have a footnote with the original dialogue/text so that people reading the wiki don't assume it's just inaccurate to the game. Imo we should have a disclaimer on the main page of the site explaining that since LoD contradicts itself and has poor translation, the wiki takes minor liberties with inferring the devs' intent for a more cohesive and clear representation of LoD's spirit.

craggy wind
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I like that idea very much.

craggy wind
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To-dos so I don't forget:

  • new onboarding document
  • known issues (i.e. contradictions)
  • finish example template for dynamic layouts.
strange wing
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Got creative and have been writing a starting point for the onboarding document

strange wing
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Added everything I could think of. Might have to change some of the guidelines depending on how the dynamic layouts work out. Also wrote, fleshed, out, and linked the writing tips and known issues documents. Hope this helps 😊

craggy wind
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You and your liberty-taking! shakes fist

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will read shortly.

craggy wind
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@strange wing I have appended my notes

strange wing
craggy wind
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You won't be able to, haha. I will need to rewrite this from scratch.

strange wing
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Oh I thought you would do the thing where you copy the google document but you are the owner, is that not an option?

craggy wind
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the who what now?

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Ah

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What I mean to say is that I have to write the bones of this doc myself, I think. You're stuck having to guess and anticipate and hunt around, when it isn't necessary. It's way better if I just write it myself, so it's correct from the get-go. I was going to start on this today, but you pre-empted me haha.

strange wing
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Ah I getcha, well at least you'll have my notes on everything I could think of. I figured before I started that with the templates changing there was going to be a complete redo of the format section, but it was fun to make. I don't think I actually remember how to properly implement a template, idk if we actually went over that since it wasn't a necessary step for the article we started me on as countries don't have a ready to go template atm.

craggy wind
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To be fair you're helping with a lot of things suddenly. It's okay. <3

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I think for next time, just ask me what I need most? Then we can be an even stronger duo than we already are!

strange wing
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I just wish I could do more, I know you've got a ton on your plate overall and I'm not sure where I can be of best help. I know that the wiki is one you really wanted help on, but it seems stuck until the layout/template stuff is automated, and once that's done we still wanted to look at the overall format/organization of the individual templates for optimizations.

That's a good point, don't know why I didn't think of that haha, sometimes I need to remember that taking initiative isn't always the most optimal path. On the bright side I think the writing tips section is looking fire now haha. Alrighty, what can I do to help you most right now?

craggy wind
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Get me more warm bodies.

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In order for our projects to generally flourish, let alone stop being understaffed, we really need an influx of 30-40 people who stick around longer than five minutes.

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So the #1 thing we need most, is more people helping out. Everything else will fall into place if we could just get some numbers. (wiki or otherwise)

strange wing
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Sadly that's one thing I don't know how to be of much help with. Social networking is about as far out of my competency range as possible. If anyone I knew personally had come to mind, I would've already recommended them, so that's out. I'm really trying to think, but probably the best places would be other fandom-centered discords that update wikis- but the ones I have seen have strict rules about linking other discords with some even calling it poaching.

As for what I think could be done server-side to assist in motivating people... Hmm, well I've noticed some interest here in the LoD server, maybe an announcement once the onboarding document & resources are neatly packaged and available will call to people. I also noticed that a lot of latecomer volunteers struggled to understand how to get started since a lot of the easier to parse information had been buried in chat- some people don't think to read pinned messages and sometimes people also forget to pin those kinds of messages- I know I pointed those out when I caught them. I think making more use of the updates channel and including hyperlinks to onboarding information so it can't be buried in chat or left as a pinned message would help.

As a volunteer, I think what volunteers need most is clear, easy to follow direction. I'm a fairly thorough person and I read through all of the guides/material that I was pointed to, and yet there were several times when information that would have been useful previously popped up only out of happenstance. One recent example were the script spreadsheets holding all dialogue. I also feel like part of the problem may be the number of resources from different places that people have to keep track of is a lot. There's a style guide on the wiki that I didn't know about until you commented on it today, and even after a few minutes of deliberate searching I can't find it. Between various google docs, multiple spreadsheets, the github repository, the discord, and the guide + templates on the wiki there's just a lot for a person to keep track of so I think having those relevant resources linked in an onboarding document will really help lighten the load on newcomers and help with people dipping after like 5 minutes.

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So besides all that, what's your #2 thing you need most?

craggy wind
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You make some fair points, though I find some of it to be unfair as well. It's not as bad as you make it out to be. Many of these things have been pointed out in clear, simple terms. For example, anyone who goes through onboarding will be shown the style guides. If you missed that, i mistakenly failed to mention it the one time.

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The documentation and processes can certainly be improved, but I don't think it's fair to blame the systems for low turnout. You would have to be here and see it over several years to truly understand.

craggy wind
# strange wing So besides all that, what's your #2 thing you need most?

One of the next most important things would be project leads. I am comfortable guiding on occasion, but I only have bandwidth to be a lead for a few projects at a time. Most projects are on-hold or very slow as a result. We need folks who are the right fit for these roles. Training possible in most cases - doesn't have to be someone super knowledgeable.

strange wing
# craggy wind The documentation and processes can certainly be improved, but I don't think it'...

Sorry if it came off as my blaming the system, I was only trying to convey that they were factors which I believe can be improved. I think onboarding materials would help improve volunteer retention- not totally fix it. If we made the onboarding document thorough enough, it could supplement everything except the part where you make accounts and double-check that a person isn't making errors. My main goal in thought is to try and automate what I think could be so that you gain more time for other things.

What project leads are missing/in need of filling?

craggy wind
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Nearly all of them. :P

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It seems like you really wanna help but are having trouble finding your exact fit. Yet, you've been a good communicator and you share my interest in being organized/etc. So, how about I fulfill a nearly ten-year-old half-joke and bring you on as a secretary? It would be nice to no longer feel alone doing operations-esque stuff, at long last.

strange wing
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I'm not sure what being a secretary would fully entail but I'm not opposed to a trial run to see if I'm a good fit for it. I would also be comfortable taking up a project lead position for the Wiki (organization, communication, and writing are my strongest suites) although I have no clue if that is something people can volunteer for or if you have criterion that need to be met for a person to be eligible.

craggy wind
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Sure, we can give it a try then. Like usual you can cease anytime.

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Strong suites, huh? xD

strange wing
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Alrighty, so what do you need done?

craggy wind
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Pardon, I am eating at the moment

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If you're open to it, I think we should do a call when we're both available.

strange wing
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No worries, a call sounds good, just let me know when you're free arrowtext

modern vector
craggy wind
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@white plover hey, can you still access and edit the Wiki project board on Github?

white plover
craggy wind
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Okay, thanks. Had a weird perms issue on the new Translation board, but sorted now.

ornate solar
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Not sure if this is trivia worthy, but...

Sandora Elite at Hoax... EVERY time I have fought this guy his real ones have always been; Left, Middle, Right, Middle, Left - Death... (I've never let him live longer than that)

Is there actually any randomisation to this or is it purely patterend?

craggy wind
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I have no idea, but there are also many detection methods. Big shadow, Detonate Rock, and whichever one uses Green Flame.

ornate solar
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I was aware of the detection methods... I just figured it was worth mentioning that I have never personally encountered an alternate pattern

craggy wind
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easy enough to check. Ask in #🧪sc-test-lobby ! I'm sure Wulves and a few others would love to check both SC and retail.

ornate solar
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I don't have access to that chanell...

craggy wind
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Ah damn. Okay, I'll do it!

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I got you covered.

strange wing
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I will absolutely look into that 😊

strange wing
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Reading the LoD game manual and boy the typos and inaccuracies are more rampant than I remember

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In the wiki it says that the Rare Monsters are reffered to as such by the devs, do we have the source on that info?

craggy wind
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JP Guidebook.

strange wing
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Ty!

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I know that for some things in the guidebook they could only have come from the devs, but for things like attack names it's less clear. Is the Rare Monster something definitively from the devs or is it a case of ambiguity?

craggy wind
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IIRC it's a titled header and there may be some description text.

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Many things are not strictly verifiable, unless we find a statement near the front or back of the book specifying how involved one or more devs were with the editorial team.

strange wing
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Gotcha, I was asking because the Rare Monsters entry states it as fact, so if it was unverified I was gonna move it to a trivia section with something like, "While not referred to with any specific designation in game, the JP Guidebook was made in collusion with the devs and uses the term Rare Monsters to designate this class of enemy"

craggy wind
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wow, a rare instance where the word "colluded" doesn't come with a nefarious connotation.

craggy wind
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I will clarify that some things are "implied" canon, like the lore section. The editorial team couldn't possibly know this information, and I doubt they would fabricate it to such a lengthy, specific level.

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Same with the TM guidebook's illustrations for equips and consumables. Naturally, we do want to verify as much as possible, and to that end we'll be checking the books in full.

strange wing
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I think we should change the abbreviations for Japan in the Wiki to JP. The current abbreviation is also a derogatory term

craggy wind
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What? That should not be possible. Show me in DM.

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Everything should only have JP, JA, or the full name.

strange wing
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Sent, that is the only case I've noticed so far but I'll keep my eyes peeled for more

white plover
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The internal spreadsheet for chest locations seems to end at the Undersea Cavern. Not sure if I’m missing a tab or something, but I cant find chests past that

IMG_1819.png
smoky girder
strange wing
white plover
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Ah, okay. I thought everything was on the spreadsheet already. Didn’t know it was still work in progress

craggy wind
strange wing
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Updated the Internal spreadsheet with the chests I've noted all the way up to just before entering Kashua Galcier in disc 3.

white plover
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Nice 👀

craggy wind
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New "Smart" Template v 0.1 ready for testing. I need a volunteer <@&438499271428407297> ! This test should only take a few minutes. If successful, we can proceed with the idea.

haughty karma
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I'm around for a bit Drew, whaddya need?

craggy wind
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I need you to be one of our pre-existing editors. That way I don't have to make you an account first and teach things. xD

haughty karma
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aw. ok. sorry I couldn't be of help

craggy wind
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It's okay, I can play both roles at once for the moment.

strange wing
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How many editors do we have in total now?

craggy wind
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A small handful?

white plover
craggy wind
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hi, I'm at my desk now. Yeah, that would be helpful.

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Up for a call?

white plover
craggy wind
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See you then

white plover
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@craggy wind is there a voice channel you want to go to our just a direct Discord call?

craggy wind
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server voice is okay

white plover
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Kk

craggy wind
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{{Location_Test

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Synopsis=
Story1=
Story2
Services
Shops
Collectibles
Goods
Stardust
Treasure
Combat
MinorMobs
BattleFormations
Bosses
Gallery
Trivia

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add }} on its own line after the last variable's content is filled in.

craggy wind
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THE WIKI IS OPEN FOR EDITING AGAIN!!!! (I am so happy, discovered something new that saves a lot of hassle)

craggy wind
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Hi Wulves, wanna join in?

strange wing
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Currently playing some games with frens right now, but if you all are still on after I'm game

craggy wind
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Cells and caption (| or ||, ! or !!, and |+) hold content. So separate any attributes from content with a single pipe (|). Cell content may follow on same line or on following lines.

Table and row marks ({| and |-) do not directly hold content. Do not add pipe (|) after their optional attributes. If you erroneously add a pipe after attributes for the table mark or row mark the parser will delete it and your final attribute if it was touching the erroneous pipe!

Content may (a) follow its cell mark on the same line after any optional HTML attributes or (b) on lines below the cell mark. Content that uses wiki markup that itself needs to start on a new line, such as lists, headings, or nested tables, must be on its own new line.```
craggy wind
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Okay, SwirlingCrow and I just went over the first test of dynamic layouts. Technically we already did this with the infoboxes in the past, but this is a lot more content and there are some hurdles. That said, the test was mostly a success and we are pushing ahead with it.

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I also learned that we can have everyone add content without having to wait on style guides to be finished!

strange wing
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Sweet! How does it work?

craggy wind
strange wing
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Now that we have the template stuff all I need for making entries is the onboarding doc so I can know how use the template stuff xD

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Oh also could you link me the style guide you mentioned on the wiki? I tried to find it but nothing came up even with the search bar

craggy wind
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Yes, we can move forward with that today. Tag me when you're available.

strange wing
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@craggy wind I'm available now 🙂

craggy wind
craggy wind
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Made lots of headway, got as far as Minor Mobs on the Location guide. Taking break to eat lunch and watch Evil.

craggy wind
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I'm ready to resume, but my cat decided it's the perfect time to lay on my arms. I can barely type this out!

strange wing
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You no longer have arms, they are a cat bed now xD

white plover
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In the Goods tables of Location articles there's a column called "Acquisition". What is supposed to go in there? I've seen different things under the acquisition column like the place/map you find it or the in-game item description, but I would've thought it was a description of how to get the good. Just want to check before I edit anymore Goods tables.

craggy wind
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That's for stating how the Good is acquired. Natural story progression, attend a wedding, et cetera. The item description does not belong there.

upper hatch
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So she isn't there when Shana is gone, she comes back when Shana recovered, and then she is gone again AFTER the hero compitetion.

craggy wind
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(o_0)

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@upper hatch I don't remember what the wiki article says atm. Can you also see if your finding conflicts with the website guide?

upper hatch
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the who

strange wing
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Do we have the data for which enemies can and can't use counter?

craggy wind
craggy wind
# strange wing Do we have the data for which enemies can and can't use counter?

Addition Counterattack Data

  • 1st tab: raw export
  • 2nd tab: vertical format. Column D determines if the enemy can counter at all. If so, column C will determine "aggression" value.
  • 3rd tab: voodoo
  • 4th tab: matrix view. Column D shows which addies can be countered (supercedes all else). Each column afterward belongs to one enemy, showing which steps of each addition they can possibly counter.
  • 5th tab: Addy Ruleset

@jovial lava while fetching this doc for Wulves, I noticed a glitch in the matrix (tab). Cells in row 172 say they're being referred to something that doesn't exist.

jovial lava
strange wing
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For the enemy attacks and behavior doc I created a new section at the top called "Key Terms" to reduce bloat of me re-explaining things over and over for common behaviors. Right now the only term is "Auto" which when found in the requirements for an action, means that the action will be performed on the enemy's next turn once the requirements are met for it. This occurs in a lot of boss fights, I'm only up to Fruegel 1 and it's already in 3 action entries

craggy wind
jovial lava
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i'll take a look

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Okay, I think it's fine

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it's just to do with the way cell formulas work

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The reference evaluation does not stop when a condition is met

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part of the formula checks values from the next hit. On the last hit, this does not happen because it skips that logic once it sees the "last hit" flag is set", which automatically evaluates it to false

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in the spreadsheet though, it's still checking to make sure everything in the formula is valid before it outputs a result. Since there is no row 173 on Addition data, it throws an invalid reference error, regardless of the fact that the full statement would evaluate to false regardless

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Hmm, it might have just gotten messed up when something was being moved around

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it was specifically failing on E$173

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I just redragged the formula to the last row and it fixed itself

craggy wind
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Okay, thank you.

craggy wind
# upper hatch the who

I was asking you to cross-reference with the Stardust guide on the website, because I couldn't look at it when we were talking. But looking now, it says: "She is inaccessible once the Hero Competition is started."

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So, if your findings are correct, then both the wiki page and the website guide are mistaken?

upper hatch
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oh i didnt know that was a thing

craggy wind
upper hatch
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the website just needs an extra comment saying she leaves when shana is recovering and once she is recovered she is back again

craggy wind
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Okay, and the wiki?

upper hatch
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the webste says she is found in three locations but it should say 4

craggy wind
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I know the terms overlap but that confused me for a minute haha.

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fixing now

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Oh, that writing is intentional. "... can later be found in three places."

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implying Bale is the first place.

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We should simplify it to just say "Martel can be found in four locations as events unfold." Or something like that.

jovial lava
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Yeah, definitely confusing as written

craggy wind
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The flow of text assumes that the entire page is being read, is the problem.

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This article needs a lot of TLC.

craggy wind
strange wing
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Looking way better! I didn't know Martel was a merchant, I always assumed she was an adventurer

jovial lava
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I don't think she's ever described as a merchant? I wouk'ld remove that, it's speculation as far as I know. She just gives you rewards that I think she said she's found in her travels. All we know is she's a traveler by necessity.

craggy wind
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I was working on something else and got my wires crossed.

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Fixed. The rest of the improvements should stand.

dawn dawn
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I might be a little late lol, but I'm down to help anyway I can

craggy wind
dawn dawn
craggy wind
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Do you have experience with wiki editing?

dawn dawn
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A little bit. I think I edited info for a couple bosses for this game a while back

craggy wind
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Ah, okay.

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Stick to location articles for the moment. There are a few things we need to overhaul before proceeding with most of the articles.

dawn dawn
craggy wind
# dawn dawn And that would be?

The overhauls? Well, #1 I am updating the wiki's version on our server. It needed to happen anyway, but being on an older version is stopping us from some other important upgrades, which is:

#2, making all our templates dynamic. Previously, to make a new Location article and keep it looking like all the other ones, we would just inject the static template and add content. However, little changes over time have made it so that many of the articles look inconsistent. Then we have to update each one individually, over and over again. So we're switching to a dynamic system where it all stays in sync automatically (yay!). The problem is, part of that requires a more recent MediaWiki version.

dawn dawn
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I'll definitely look into it

craggy wind
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The wiki is now closed for editing. I am beginning the upgrade process shorty.

craggy wind
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Update: Good news and bad news.

  • VoteUp The database for our wiki is backed up.
  • VoteDown The site files are backed up, but they somehow ballooned from 2.5GB to 40GB (zipped!).
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Does anyone know what could cause a zip file to be 20x the original size?

strange wing
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Only thing that remotely sounds similar is fragmented files, but I have no clue how that is handled on a website vs a personal pc. If it was just on your computer, you could search defragment in the search bar and use the tool that pops up to fix fragmentation.

craggy wind
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This is a fresh web server; fragmentation not possible. It might be an SSD anyways, though I'd have to double check.

strange wing
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Could be file corruption, can you access/read the files at all?

thorn ruin
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Fragmentation won't affect file size

thorn ruin
craggy wind
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Okay

craggy wind
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I'm stuck away from my desk for several hours. When I return, however, I will resume work on the wiki upgrade.

craggy wind
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Okay! The wiki version has been updated. I'm doing the short URL (nice-looking URLs) operation now. In a few minutes we should be okay to resume editing!!!

craggy wind
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There were some delays due to my brain failing to figure a few things out.. but thanks to Monoxide's help we are over the finish line!

The wiki is now open for editing!

Edit: What was changed? Upgrade to latest Long-Term Support release of MediaWiki, plus ShortURLs.

I greatly appreciate everyone's patience. Let's get these articles moving forward! Pizza and brownies for everyone. If any issues are encountered with the site, please tag me and we'll get it sorted. <@&438499271428407297>

strange wing
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Just discovered a very quirky behavior and not sure if I should log it to the document. Danton will only target Dart, even if he's dead, with the minor exception of his Counter Guard which can proc when targeted by other party members. This is kind of rare among the 1v1 fights, but also you would never normally encounter Danton with more than just Dart so I'm not sure if I should include it.

craggy wind
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@strange wing That sounds rare. I'd love to see footage of Danton attacking a downed Dart! Several enemies may need adjustments code-wise for party unlock - many of these sorts of things were discovered earlier this year and may get patched. I think Icarus was taking lead on that for a bit - you may want to ask if he's looked at Danton yet.

I want to say targeting behavior is part of enemy abilities, but we're really stretching the scope of the document as it is. Well, I assume you mean the one you've been converting from radio buttons to charts. It does fit but this would definitely be the point where the doc needs to be cloned and trimmed for public use. Testers may still be referencing it, and we don't want the doc to look too intimidating.

white plover
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The Wiki update definitely helped. The magic word stuff to get tables to appear in the dynamic template works now in the Hellena Prison article. Should I go around and update the Location articles with the dynamic template? @craggy wind

craggy wind
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Not yet. We need to check and see if there are more variables/parameters to create. Otherwise you'll just be re-re-editing those parameters on the other location articles.

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We don't have to finish the entire template (a perk of this change), but I had barely gotten it started before doing the version upgrade.

white plover
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Copy that. I’ll hold off on that for now.

craggy wind
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Synopsis, two for story, services summary, shops, collectibles summary, goods, stardust, treasure/pickups, combat summary, minor mobs, battle formations, bosses, gallery, trivia. I think that's all we need for now? We can update later for needs we discover along the way.

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In any event, I was imagining we should get Hellena built out before proceeding. This way, we have a "good example" article that editors can reliable refer to for all other location articles.

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Hellena Prison notes:

  • remove references that break the fourth wall (soundtrack reference).
  • formatting error after the subheading "Revisited"
  • missing shop data on 1st visit (more than one location. Are the contents the same?)
  • Need summaries for services and collectibles.
  • table widths should be shrunk for Goods and Treasures.
  • I think we should consider removing the Notes/Strategies column from the Boss table.
  • populate gallery with assorted images: a few for submaps (in-game, not standalone BGs), and a few for cutscenes should be a good start.
  • trivia needs tidying. Second point is not really trivia because it could be said for many areas.
  • We should talk about references soon, but for the moment we have nothing on the article that comes from outside the game (i.e. JP Guidebook).
white plover
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Sounds good!

white plover
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Re-added the first visit shop table to the Helena page.

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Also, there’s an issue in the info box at the top of location articles. Brackets appear around the names of bosses in the info box, and I’m not sure how to get rid of them.

craggy wind
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I have a fix for that. It was an attempt at saving on a bit of formatting that doesn't work.

strange wing
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The inconsistent capitalization of in game attack names is so unfortunate
"Slime Throwing"
"Lava throwing"
😩

craggy wind
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Indeed.

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Are you updating an article?

thorn ruin
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I strongly believe that normalisation and fixing spelling mistakes is fine

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And should be done

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For misspellings, you can add redirects to the page with the proper spelling

craggy wind
#

Yeah, we've already got a procedure for it.

#

In this case, Throwing will be capitalized.

strange wing
# craggy wind Are you updating an article?

Not at the moment, but I've been keeping the original spelling for the enemy behavior doc so it would be easy to include the notices for spelling discrepancies in for when I do start on the wiki

craggy wind
#

@white plover Are you down to help me finish off Hellena Prison?

white plover
craggy wind
#

Okay. I more meant near-future. I am going to make a little room today for it.

white plover
#

Probably not today

strange wing
#

Any update on the onboarding document for editing the wiki?

craggy wind
#

I am grateful for whomever invented using cell phones as mobile hotspots.

craggy wind
#

I am not sure which document you are referring to. I see a writing advice document that you began, and an instructions document that I began. I will dive in.

strange wing
#

The writing advice document should be complete. I sent a draft of the onboarding as I understood it, but I don't fully understand how templates as I thought it was a copy paste thing, and you said it would be easier for you to just write the document yourself. Basically the idea was a document which could teach people how to edit the wiki so you didn't have to onboard each individual person and as reference material if someone came back to it and forgot something.

craggy wind
#

I have lost that document. I will start over.

craggy wind
strange wing
#

Looks good so far!

craggy wind
#

I still request help finishing the list so we can get Hellena in ideal shape and doing a final review, so we can start applying these changes to every Location article.

strange wing
craggy wind
#

I have some thoughts regarding your writing guide as well. Up for a call today?

strange wing
craggy wind
#

I think I'd have an easier time in voice but text is okay.

#

Just parked, will get laptop out and write you

craggy wind
#

To-do list for Hellena is shortened! \o/

  • remove references that break the fourth wall - general story review.
  • check shop data on 1st visit (more than one location. Are the contents the same?)
  • Need summaries for services and collectibles.
  • populate gallery with assorted images: a few for submaps (in-game, not standalone BGs), and a few for cutscenes should be a good start.
  • We should talk about references soon, but for the moment we have nothing on the article that comes from outside the game (i.e. JP Guidebook).

I will take the Gallery next.

strange wing
#

Looking at editing the Hellena entry and I'm lost on how to operate inside a template or if I can copy/paste code to add tables. Once the onboarding document teaches how to do that, I can live test the document by following it's instructions and informing you of anything unclear. Afterwards I'll definitely be able to help more but at the moment there's not much I can do in confidence.

craggy wind
#

Sure thing. DM me when you're available, and I'll help you through it.

strange wing
#

Sounds good; just lemme know when you feel the onboarding document has reached that point and I'll figure out my availability from there

craggy wind
#

I don't think that's necessary? I can probably solve your issues in like two minutes of talking.

#

Plus, walking me through what you're trying to do can inform on what should be in the guide.

#

May we set up a time to meet?

strange wing
#

I would really prefer it in writing so I could reference it if I forget something (I'm unfamiliar with coding and I don't do well learning from lecture. Internalizing written words has always been easier for me than verbal as I have some audio-processing issues.) I can write up the points I feel are missing/need in order to progress; it'll mostly be technical things like "Where can I just type in text for displaying info" "How do I add a chart" "Do I need to copy paste stuff or should I never copy paste?" with maybe the occasional formatting question like "Can I add charts wherever I feel are appropriate or are there rules?"

craggy wind
#

That's understandable. I'll just continue on the doc as best I can.

#

Some of your questions depend on context, hence my wish to connect first, but I will do the general stuff and hope that helps you get better footing.

strange wing
#

I checked Haschel's entry on the wiki and noticed Hex Hammer had incorrect info (was listed as dealing 300% at max instead of 400%.) Fixed it and marked it as a minor edit, but realized after that it might be considered more than minor to fix incorrect data so thought I'd mention it here

craggy wind
#

I understand the language can be fluid, but single character is minor. Edits cannot be any smaller.

strange wing
#

Gotcha, just didn't want it to be for like, obvious typo stuff and then I use it for correcting something important like stats xD
Will keep in mind for the future

craggy wind
#

It's not critically important, just helps us get a rough idea at a glance. Treat it as such.

#

A few words here and there, one or two links fixed or added, a single sentence. Stuff like that. Non-minor would be entire sections added, a full paragraph, or full tables.

craggy wind
#

@iron umbra

iron umbra
#

would anyone like to brainstorm ideas for the wiki? what are you thinking it should look like and how can we get there by Dec 2?

#

and how do we all want to contribute?

#

is there a time we can all meet on a call to discuss it? 📞

balmy robin
#

I was wondering how we wanted to begin work on the boss pages? I'm not too great at images, but I can begin working on those with relative ease compared to map information (though i will try to take care of that as I go on). Figure if nothing else I can do a table of the boss statistics, a small lore blurb, and possibly trivia or tips to beat them

craggy wind
# balmy robin I was wondering how we wanted to begin work on the boss pages? I'm not too great...

First, we must select a specific boss as a prototype. Then, someone needs to build the new dynamic template for Bosses. Along the way, update the selected Boss page and see how it looks. Once that boss is fully written for, the other Boss pages can be worked on.

The main problem is that we don't have other volunteers besides myself for the most part. This will only work if additional helpers contribute in updating the templates and writing / testing the new layouts.

iron umbra
#

since Hellena Prison has good progress, would you like to start with Fruegel? (I actually don't think I knew how to spell his name)

balmy robin
#

You say dynamic template, i take it this is different from the template seen on Mappis page as an example?

#

Fruegal would be a good one. Early on enough, with enough story presence to fill all the other parameters I mentioned

craggy wind
#

Yes. If you look at the code of any location page, and then compare with Hellena Prison's code, you will see the changes. I will demonstrate.

iron umbra
#

i think Fruegel would be tickled "red" knowing he was the Boss template

#

it would also make sense to then expand on the boss template by visiting Fruegel again when team returns to Hellena Prison, which will help us start to* figure out how to address combo bosses (Fruegel et al)

craggy wind
#

Old ↔ New

image.png image.png
#

As you can see, the first image includes more "manual" code that must be added to each article. When we create new articles, we inject the static "skeleton" template to put all those section headers in, and so on. However, if we update the layout, then we have to manually go to every location article and update them manually. It is a lot of extra work.

With a dynamic template, we only ever need to update a single page (the template itself). Then, all location articles are automatically synchronized. Hellena Prison is the test bed for this, and once Hellena is nearly finished, we can begin the changeover for all location articles. I will provide simple instructions for this - it isn't hard and no code skills are required. This is also good because it simplifies the article creation process for inexperienced editors. Instead of injecting the static template, saving, and re-entering edit mode, they can merely call up the dynamic template and start writing without having to Save first.

Similarly we must do this for other categories i.e. Bosses. Fruegel can be chosen, but his article will be complex as it includes two boss fights and boss minions. I recommend we do a more "plain" boss that fights alone, appears once, has no phases, and has some lore. I would recommend.. Jiango or Kamuy.

balmy robin
#

so then in creating the dynamic template we first just have to figure out which information we'd like to have and the layout, correct?

#

and as a counterpoint, if we begin with a simpler boss, it may be harder because we would then need to make changes for bosses like fruegal, whereas if we make the template with fruegal in mind, it would be easier to apply to those simple ones. Unless I'm not quite grasping something. tbh I only barely figured the old coding out lol

iron umbra
#

i think you bring up a good point and i want to go further and suggest separating the task of formatting versus content generation

#

i wanted to set up an excel document to house all the information so that it can be copypasted later with correct coding & templating once that is finalized

#

by dissociating these two tasks, maybe we can build up some momentum while final decisions are deliberated for the template?

craggy wind
craggy wind
balmy robin
#

but if we have the parameters, and if doing something such as changing the layout and aesthetics at a later date will automatically apply across the board....why wait to begin?

iron umbra
#

let's begin!

#

i'm away abroad for a short holiday but i am really excited to work on this project, so i'll be logging a few hours a day at least

craggy wind
balmy robin
#

fair point

craggy wind
#

So the tasks:

iron umbra
craggy wind
#

We already have a project board for the wiki. I didn't have time to go over that with you in our call, but you should be linked to it.

iron umbra
#

until i have access to the wiki, would it be okay if i try out my own system to organize?

craggy wind
#

You are free to for your own notes.

iron umbra
#

k, making a trello account

craggy wind
#

Here are some of the priority tasks atm:

  • add to Hellena Prison article, until ~95% complete.
  • Create dynamic template for Bosses
  • Convert a simple Boss's article so that it uses the dynamic template
  • Start writing content for said boss, evaluating as we go.
#

I will probably be most needed for creating the dynamic template for bosses. I can get started on that now. I'll need others to take initiative on content writing for Hellena Prison and a Boss.

iron umbra
#

@balmy robin would you like to start on bosses and i'll see what I can do to complete the Hellena Prison article?

#

on a boss*

balmy robin
#

well if I may, what more do we hope for on the prison page? At a glance right now it seems like all thats needed is images and possibly an additional tidbit of trivia

iron umbra
#

lemme check the trello

#

the last message on there says that Hellena Prison part 2 needs to be added

craggy wind
#

That seems correct. A previous editor wrote a "Revisited" subsection, but noted that it's copy-pasted from Albert's story section. That is something we should not do (it was temporary, ofc).

iron umbra
#

no rush, but any update re: my wiki access? i'd like to jump in, if i may

craggy wind
#

It could be refactored, but it may be better to write from scratch and just use it as a reference.

balmy robin
#

ah, right. hadn't clicked on that so it was still hidden

craggy wind
iron umbra
#

🙏 thank you kindly

thorn ruin
#

I don't remember what the problem was

craggy wind
#

Creating a new account resulted in a fatal error.

iron umbra
craggy wind
#

yes abso

#

what's your username?

balmy robin
iron umbra
#

ooh like a playthrough as you work through??

thorn ruin
#

Let me know when you pull the logs

craggy wind
iron umbra
balmy robin
#

yep. should be relatively quick, easy to blitz from boss to boss if you arent worried about stardust or going off the path for treasure.

iron umbra
iron umbra
craggy wind
#

invite sent

#

section on the wiki article. It should not be verbatim from Albert's page in this case.

iron umbra
#

k

#

also, it looks like the trello has max 10 collaborators. do we need a subcription?

craggy wind
#

No, we are leaving Trello. It's something I intended to mention to you soon in case you felt you could assist.

iron umbra
#

good to know^ thank you

#

if we could throw money at this wiki project, where would it be used and how much?

craggy wind
#

It would fund the web server costs, which I pay monthly. It's a very good service. I don't recall the exact price atm but it's way better and cheaper than our previous service.

iron umbra
#

let me know how i can help fund that^

craggy wind
#

the money would go to me personally, for transparency.

#

I fundraise for all things LoD, except SC which Monoxide has a separate ko-fi page for.

#

Speaking of Fruegel earlier, that is my entry sub tier xD.

#

I have begun the dynamic template for Bosses.

balmy robin
#

Hes manifestiiiing

craggy wind
#

I'm a they/them out causing may/hem. <3

balmy robin
#

omfg rofl

#

i was referring to fruegel but thats great lol

craggy wind
#

Okay, time to look at this mysterious log.

balmy robin
#

I feel like we arent meant to look at the log here...

craggy wind
#

@thorn ruin I am no lumberjack, but I have procured a log.


Backtrace:

from /var/www/lod/w/extensions/Popups/includes/PopupsHooks.php(200)
#0 /var/www/lod/w/includes/HookContainer/HookContainer.php(338): Popups\PopupsHooks::onLocalUserCreated()
#1 /var/www/lod/w/includes/HookContainer/HookContainer.php(137): MediaWiki\HookContainer\HookContainer->callLegacyHook()
#2 /var/www/lod/w/includes/HookContainer/HookRunner.php(2396): MediaWiki\HookContainer\HookContainer->run()
#3 /var/www/lod/w/includes/auth/AuthManager.php(1581): MediaWiki\HookContainer\HookRunner->onLocalUserCreated()
#4 /var/www/lod/w/includes/auth/AuthManager.php(1294): MediaWiki\Auth\AuthManager->continueAccountCreation()
#5 /var/www/lod/w/includes/specialpage/AuthManagerSpecialPage.php(376): MediaWiki\Auth\AuthManager->beginAccountCreation()
#6 /var/www/lod/w/includes/specialpage/AuthManagerSpecialPage.php(504): AuthManagerSpecialPage->performAuthenticationStep()
#7 /var/www/lod/w/includes/htmlform/HTMLForm.php(729): AuthManagerSpecialPage->handleFormSubmit()
#8 /var/www/lod/w/includes/specialpage/AuthManagerSpecialPage.php(435): HTMLForm->trySubmit()
#9 /var/www/lod/w/includes/specialpage/LoginSignupSpecialPage.php(320): AuthManagerSpecialPage->trySubmit()
#10 /var/www/lod/w/includes/specialpage/SpecialPage.php(701): LoginSignupSpecialPage->execute()
#11 /var/www/lod/w/includes/specialpage/SpecialPageFactory.php(1428): SpecialPage->run()
#12 /var/www/lod/w/includes/MediaWiki.php(316): MediaWiki\SpecialPage\SpecialPageFactory->executePath()
#13 /var/www/lod/w/includes/MediaWiki.php(904): MediaWiki->performRequest()
#14 /var/www/lod/w/includes/MediaWiki.php(562): MediaWiki->main()
#15 /var/www/lod/w/index.php(50): MediaWiki->run()
#16 /var/www/lod/w/index.php(46): wfIndexMain()
#17 {main}
#

It seems that the Popups extension is breaking account creation, somehow?

#

this seems over my head, so I will wait and work on something else.

thorn ruin
#

Yeah, popups is breaking it

craggy wind
#

Self: reminder to disable extended logging.

balmy robin
#

@craggy wind Sorry for the ping, but not knowing the usual time constraints for the making of templates, could you please ping or DM me when you got it ready for a test run? No rush of course, tomorrows just the start of the work week so i dont wanna forget in the hustle and bustle

iron umbra
#

i'm going to be helping with that

craggy wind
#

sorry cap

#

@balmy robin which template are you referring to?

balmy robin
#

bosses

craggy wind
#

Done

#

Do you already have an account on the wiki?

balmy robin
#

yep

craggy wind
#

please login if not already.

balmy robin
#

I am

#

man these step by steps are super easy so far

craggy wind
#

Okay. You can have your pick of which boss is our prototype. Has to be a simple one with no minions, phases, only fought once, etc. I recommended Kamuy or Jiango earlier - any like them are fine.

balmy robin
#

lets do Jiango. If only to once more have another connection back to Fruegel today lol

craggy wind
#

I love Gozer, haha.

balmy robin
#

I AM THE KEYMASTER

craggy wind
#

Okay, remember how to create a new article?

balmy robin
#

i believe so. Currently I've only clicked on Kamuy and its taken me to the steps to create an article, though I understand theres another way

craggy wind
#

Okay. In search bar, type Jiango and press enter. Click the red link to Create it.

#

you can do it by clicking on an existing red link for it as well, yeah.

balmy robin
#

gotcha, and im there

craggy wind
#

Open a second tab and nav to Hellena Prison > Edit. For now you can simply copy over the code (omitting infobox on line 1 for now) to Jiango's article.

#

Or you can just look at it and memorize, up to you. It's just so you learn the tiny bits of syntax needed for this new setup.

#

But, we're gonna use a different set of variables.

balmy robin
#

alrighty

craggy wind
#

Your variables are: Synopsis, Story1, Story2, Combat, Gallery, Trivia, and References.

#

keep an empty line between these, as I did with Hellena, so it's easy to parse when future editors work on the article.

Oh, and above the variables you need to "call" the template, which will be {{Boss. At the end of the article, close with }} on its own line, and one line below that put [[Category:Missing Information]]

balmy robin
#

gotcha

#

thanks Drew!

#

I'll try to take care of this tonight, so by tomorrow we can decide how we feel about it

craggy wind
#

Like with locations, ensure the synopsis' first sentence includes the article name (Jiango) and that it is in boldtext. That's how our pop-up preview things work when we mouse-over links on other articles.

That should be everything.

#

You're welcome. If anything trips you up or I missed something just ping me.

#

Yeah, this is the starter version. We need to have a few discussions about what combat data will be included, and how to visually present it, so for the moment let's get some flesh on the bones to start.

#

Thank you for helping!

balmy robin
#

quick question, whats the syntax used for noting a reference point?

craggy wind
#

We haven't made any yet, so I'm not sure haha.

balmy robin
#

awesome lol

craggy wind
#

Anything confirmed by the game itself will not need a reference. Else we'd have umpteen references on every page.

#

We will use them once we start referring to details that are only found outside the game itself. That includes the two guidebooks, interviews, Siggraph convention materials, and so on. Makes sense?

balmy robin
#

gotcha, was gonna use it to refer to direct quotes, but that makes sense

craggy wind
#

You can definitely quote the script once in awhile though. For example, "I cannot die yet." Use sparingly.

balmy robin
#

Gave up on references, the example given I couldnt get to work anyway. So aside from things such as stat numbers in the combat zone (and I know you mentioned we still need to figure out HOW we want that section presented) and the gallery being empty (might load up the battle on SC tomorrow for screenies) I think I'm done for now. Gonna hit save and wait to see what changes we'd like.

craggy wind
#

Sounds good, thank you. I'll review in the morning.

craggy wind
#

Good day yall. I have some updates - short version in bold text.

  • I've moved the Sandbox from the main namespace to the project namespace. That way it's more hidden away from end-users. From now on you can use this link, or search Project:Sandbox1. We can erect additional sandboxes as well (i.e. Sandbox2, Sandbox3).
  • I have reviewed Emerald's first pass on Jiango, which uses the new dynamic template for bosses. It's a very good start. Minor issues i.e. punctuation and a few inaccuracies, easily remedied with future passes on the article. Thanks @balmy robin! Let's follow up.
  • The next category of articles I will create a dynamic template for, is Player Characters. They use the old inject method which should be replaced. I'll make time for that later today.
  • Please note that I will be pruning members from the Wiki Editor role. There will be a ping for this in #1231291471106277436 . Unless you plan to contribute as a wiki editor, the role will be removed from your profile.
  • miscellaneous improvements
  • random gif for inspiration
1-pan-downward-opt.gif
balmy robin
#

🫡

balmy robin
#

Alright, I am ready for whatever kind of follow up we need, whats the plan stan Drew

craggy wind
#

@balmy robin pardon, things have been busy for me. I'll share some notes here shortly.

iron umbra
thorn ruin
#

@craggy wind just needs to disable that plugin

craggy wind
#

I was of a different understanding than disable. It can be offline for now, though. One moment.

thorn ruin
#

Well, the plugin's broken

craggy wind
#

I think we are in agreement about that much lol.

#

@iron umbra round 2, drum roll.

iron umbra
#

🥁

craggy wind
#

i will accept late drums.

#

Let's do a chat or call in DM for some basic training before I let you loose on the full wiki.

craggy wind
#

Humi had a good question about quotes on the wiki, whether we might have a section on each location article. We plan to use quotes for other things anyway, like a Discord bot or the main website. So, I created a fresh Google Doc here.

craggy wind
#

@balmy robin Okay, here's some abbreviated feedback.

Pros:

  • Good length for synopsis and story. Combat is a bit long, but some descriptions are good.
  • Trivia is good
  • Use of links is good overall.
  • story details are accurate with rare exception

Cons:

  • Ambiguous, but we should have a group chat about how much we reference game mechanics in story and synopsis. I'm leaning toward virtually none as the encyclopedia aspect pretends it is "real", so we try to avoid breaking the fourth wall when possible.
  • Minor punctuation issues (missing period, apostrophe)
  • Jiango's attacks are not elemental, just plain phys damage.
  • avoid references to the reader ("you", "your")
  • avoid opinions of combat strategy (a major issue with the Fandom wiki). Exception can be made for remarking the Sachet as it is a special part of this battle.

Next Steps (for any editor):

  • It can help to mention a few more details about Jiango. For example, the chains suggest imprisonment against its will, rather than being a willing pet like Guftas and Rodriguez. Can also mention Rancor resemblance in Trivia section.
  • I would strike most of the combat text, saving Jiango's attack list (good descriptions!). You can mention something like strong phys defense, but avoid exact stats as those will be placed into a table below the summary text you wrote. That much is certain.
  • Sachet will be linked to an anchor of Items rather than its own page, at least for now. We may make an exception but we're not there quite yet. I can teach you how to point to an anchor on another page.
  • I'll link you to the Enemy Behaviors doc in the resource archive, if you're not already familiar with it. It's got a ton of intimate combat data we largely haven't revealed to the wider fandom yet, and the wiki is one place we'll display the knowledge. I predict we'll want a "simplified" version of stats and ability kit info shown by default, and perhaps a "click to expand" button showing full stats/behavior in combat. We already know how Synopsis and Story will be structured, but combat is a section we'll have to grow and test organically on Jiango's page. So, we'll just have natural discussions as we iterate on Jiango.
balmy robin
#

Gotcha! Appreciate the feedback, and I would definitely be interested in learning how to anchor the satchet to the items page

#

also, clarification needed because synonyms ; would you want the stats table listed below the combat summary, or towards the top under the synopsis?

craggy wind
#

On Kashua Glacier, mouse-over the links in Tercero's shop - you'll see a hashtag thingy in the URL, which are anchors. Go into Edit mode to see how the code works. In the square brackets, the left-hand side is the target and the right-hand side is the display text. You can emulate based on that. Lemme know if you need more help!

#

Also, view the code of Items to see how we make anchors. We need to create anchors before we can link to them, of course, and IIRC I only made anchors for consumable items thus far. IDR how far I got.

craggy wind
balmy robin
#

I agree on that part, my problem is that synopsis can be used as a synonym for the word summary, so im unsure if you want it within the combat section of the article, or the synopsis section so that we have that information displayed earlier

craggy wind
#

The synopsis at the top is written as story introduction, basically. The combat summary goes more into the game mechanics. We technically don't need a text summary under Combat, though we'd want to compare how it looks with/without.

#

Your description with the stalagtites was great, for example.

balmy robin
#

Ok, cool lol, in my head I was imagining the stats table being of a similiar format to the map table where we display services, save points and the like near the top

craggy wind
#

With some games the attacks can be very bland/flat, so there's nothing to really describe. In LoD, however, many of the abilities are designed to have style, impact, and appear cinematic. We'd be remiss not to describe Regole's tidal wave. But, the primary function of Combat section is indeed the stats/behavior of the enemy. A summary just gives it some more flair to read about in a sort of loose-lore perspective.

#

What map table are you referring to?

balmy robin
#

Id imagined that location within the article, only instead of "hellena prison" itd be "Jiango", with the different rows and columns being the stats.

But i do see what you mean in regards to keeping synopsis more lore based and combat being the statistics and attacks

craggy wind
balmy robin
craggy wind
#

Search Template:infobox and the location one should pop up.

balmy robin
#

Question : how would I go about actually creating/saving the template once done, to where we could mirror infobox_location line of text but withInfobox_Boss

#

also this may take longer than planned, the 5yr old wants to go to the park lol

craggy wind
#

It would be the same way you make a regular article. Type Template: Infobox_Boss into search and press enter. You'll be prompted on whether to make a new template.

balmy robin
#

oh cool, wasnt sure if it had a different procedure

craggy wind
#

Luckily same procedure!

balmy robin
# craggy wind Luckily same procedure!

tried to make the template, unfortunately inputting it seems to break the rest of the pages sections, but if nothing else feel free to take a look at it for revision. Jiango has seem some editing as well, particularly the combat section. I did try to add a table there, but it again didnt want to cooperate. Kept keeping the first { but nothing else after. Deleted that particular symbol so the rest should be invisible on the page but there in the coding for easy implementation later

#

my laymans guess is maybe the template doesnt like me adding additional coding within it?

craggy wind
#

@balmy robin Hey there! I'm reviewing your two edits now. I apologize, as I forgot to mention the one major downside of dynamic templates: Tables are more annoying to create, to some extent. I will refer you to what Kosmic Aes figured out some months ago. I dunno if there's a way to make it simpler, but at least we have the basic (read: tedious) solution for now.

#

@short ember Heyo, if you're willing, I'd ask for you to help Emerald with the method you used for tables inside a dynamic template call. I cannot locate our prior discussion in search, unfortunately. Side note: We are working on the dynamic prototype for Bosses now. IIRC, you were interested in that area of things. ^_^

#

Oh, and you were also talking about waiting for the enemy movesets to be fully documented. That's a thing now, in excruciating detail. You'll be blown away.

balmy robin
#

Appreciate it

craggy wind
#

Edit #1 is quite good. Edit 2 is already discussed, we'll fix it together.

craggy wind
#

In terms of cleanup - on your writings or anyone else's - prioritize more black-and-white errors first such as missing punctuation or run-on sentences. Other changes may be more subjective because we're all slightly different when it comes to vocabulary, experience, et cetera. Stick to what you're sure of, and if you're not sure whether something should be changed, always feel free to ask the group here.

craggy wind
#

Found this in the Fandom wiki today:

"Powerful" items with no price or location cannot be bought anywhere, and sell for 20 Gold. The damage dealt by (Multi) items can be amplified by up to 200% by rapidly pressing the X button multiple times. There spell animation changes after each extra 20%.

I genuinely do not know how this stuff is vetted, except to say that it isn't.

#

The max has always been 268. Where did 200 come from?

thorn ruin
#

Lol

#

"I can't get past 200 so that must be the max"

iron umbra
#

hi @balmy robin, could i ask you to review the Hellena Prison page? it's lengthy with story but i'd like a second opinion on the details & use of the location test template 🙏🏻 https://legendofdragoon.org/wiki/Hellena_Prison

Hellena Prison

Hellena Prison is a prison island on the southernmost coast of Serdio and under direct command of Imperial Sandora. Isolated from land by a narrow drawbridge, the dark, stone prison resembles a skull with torch light and black smoke rising from its eyes and nostrils. Guards relentlessly patrol every walkway and room, ready to attack intruders wi...

balmy robin
#

off the bat, I can tell you that IF it follows the same logic as the items page, all of the equipment can be linked to the equipment page, using a leather jacket as the example itll be [[Equipment#Leatherjacket|Leather Jacket]]

craggy wind
#

Equipment situation is not yet decided. Consumable Items is decided, however.

#

I just taught Humi about anchors in the last day, was a fun chat.

balmy robin
#

aaahh, well then disregard lol

balmy robin
#

Not bad in my opinion, youve clearly got a way with words and I can tell you had some fun with it

However, it maaay be prudent to tone it down a tiny notch. For example, "They slyly slip past a dozen wardens" suggests a higher level of stealth than what we were given. Or describing dart as "incredulous" implies a more dramatic reaction than "But, the Shana of my memory hasn't changed a bit."

Fits very well when looking at the tone of the story, and what a situation realistically could be, but clashes a bit with what we're given on screen.

But again, thats my opinion and Im by no means great at this myself. Youre welcome to take this as me nitpicking and ignore it, either way I enjoyed reading it

craggy wind
#

While you're here, I should say I checked out your boss infobox today. It's a start. You gotta add more variables after the first two, but it's under way and that's great.

balmy robin
#

Too distracted by little ones to check, but first two iirc were name and element, yes? Which other variables would be of interest before the stats?

Also, the one time I tried to use it in Jiango I couldnt actually put in any values, it just kept the default example text

craggy wind
#

All of the stats should be variables.

#

You can't enter values if you don't make variables for them, if that makes sense.

#

In other words, everything you surrounded with hashtags should be in curly brackets like the first two.

image.png
balmy robin
#

Aaaaaah

#

Yeah that makes sense now

#

Funny thing is I dont even remember what prompted me to change it when id apparently gotten it right with the first two lol

iron umbra
craggy wind
#

Yeah, I think you were really focused on quality storytelling in its own context, to the point you slightly embellished. It's okay to merely convey what happened for the most part, as a focus on color and style can feel more like fanfic than canonical history of events. It's a delicate balance, to be sure.

jovial lava
#

As a reader of wikis, I also prefer a drier, more reporting-the-facts kind of tone. They're informational text to me, rather than storytelling

balmy robin
craggy wind
balmy robin
#

oh no worries, more than welcome to take your time. chances are im workin 16 hrs tomorrow anyway lol

craggy wind
#

yikes, I can barely handle 4-5 hours anymore. I hope you manage some rest in-between.

balmy robin
#

i work in a prison. Its unfortunately gonna be 16 straight on through

craggy wind
#

@balmy robin Okay, table situation. Long story short, tables don't work in dynamic templates. MediaWiki is aware of it - I don't know if they have plans for a better solution. In the meantime, we have to do some cumbersome formatting to make tables work. Kosmic Aes and I figured out how to do it earlier this year.

#

So, we have to use "replacement" characters. For example, have you ever seen %20 in your web browser's address bar? That simulates a space, since URLs are meant to be contiguous. We have to do something similar here.

#

In this case we have to replace the vertical bar symbol (shift+backspace key normally). We have to replace each bar with an exclamation point, wrapped in two sets of curly brackets. See figure 1:

image.png
#

Note the start and end have three curly brackets, that's because you need one to open and close the table itself (followed by the other two for the first vertical bar thingy). I think for cleanliness and reduced human error, we can keep those on separate lines.

balmy robin
#

hmm, weird, but alright

craggy wind
#

@balmy robin did I already go over sources with you, for things like fetching enemy stats?

#

I did a pass on Infobox_Boss, cleaned up expected variable names. It "can" be what you wrote, but the issue is everyone shorthands the stat names differently. So, we try to stick to the exact acronyms from in-game for consistency and preventing future errors.

#

I added full names in front of them so anyone not familiar knows what they are.

#

I also added the drop rate for Jiango's Sachet. For the infobox (and most other places), the rate should be listed one space after the item name inside parenthesis.

balmy robin
craggy wind
#

Are you free for a short call?

#

When you're free, we should go over sources for 5-10 minutes.

balmy robin
craggy wind
#

Okay, I've got my laptop with me.

#

Well, I was ready, but my roommate is proving unhelpful. I should be back in 10-15.

balmy robin
#

no worries, i am sat down and ready so feel free to call when good

craggy wind
#

back

balmy robin
#

Alright, stat table added, as well as an attack table. For now I've left out things such as "fall asleep" and "do nothing" as they aren't exactly attacks so much as "combat actions"
I did try to add an anotation there that a * would denote unofficial names, but I'm unsure how to format that. Ideally I'd like to put it INSIDE the table, but i'd want that row to only consist of the one section rather than two or three.

#

...for jiango. All of this was done on jiango's page

craggy wind
#

Well, after talking with you about it, I realized we don't really need a micro-template at all. We can just write that sentence in the main dynamic template, and it'll always be there. There's a caption field for tables, which may fit what you were going for.

#

I just looked. Hmm. This is a bit tricky. The notice could be placed before or after the table.. I am slightly leaning toward after. I'm gonna tinker with the template.

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The placement will depend on how we arrange everything. Right now, we can put the notice at the start or end of the combat section. If the movelist ends up being somewhere in the middle, we'd have to break the combat variable into two or more to have better control over it. For now, I am putting it at the end, so it'll look similar to your implementation.

#

Since there are only a handful of official names, I wonder if it'd be easier to asterisk the ones which are officially named, rather than putting an asterisk on almost every single ability that isn't.

#

Okay, I made the change. The notice is in the dynamic template, and I removed the manual one so it wouldn't double-up.

#

In the process, I tried cleaning up the tables by putting that opening and closing curly bracket on their own lines. Well, disaster struck, MediaWiki really doesn't like that, So, first line starts with 3 curlies and last line ends with 3. Eep.

#

Quick notes about current issues with the wiki (if you notice anything else, please mention it):

  • Popup extension is borked. It's unaltered, so it may be an issue with our extra-secure server config.
  • Some images are broken, despite appearing to have the correct server-side perms (watchlist in upper-right, Powered By in lower-right, and possibly favicon)
iron umbra
#

hi wikis, i'll be spending some time today applying peer feedback for the Hellena Prison wiki and starting to play in the sandbox with the character template. @balmy robin - how's the boss template going? any tips for me for my first time templating?

balmy robin
# iron umbra hi wikis, i'll be spending some time today applying peer feedback for the Hellen...

heya, I think we're in a good spot on the boss template. As for templating, as a complete layman what I've done is looked at examples from other pages and just copied them over. Adjust columns and rows as needed, add in the links where I'm able. Mostly its just learning through emulation. For example when it came to items and linking them I took a look at Kadessa shop inventories, figuring how to apply those links as well as just making a table collapsible. Then the boss Infobox I mainly looked towards location infobox templates and such.

#

Adding a table inside a template took some work, as well as fixing the infobox, but in those cases its a matter of the preview button when it comes to trial and error

#

(and some helpful insight from Drew)

iron umbra
#

sounds like i'm on the right track then

balmy robin
#

On that note though, I'd like to start going through bosses in a new playthrough, if we are indeed in a good spot. That work for you @craggy wind or should we hold off?

iron umbra
#

yay! that sounds exciting

balmy robin
#

think the main evolution here would be when bosses are joined by minions or have different parts. Special mechanics could probably remain as a text blurb above the stats table

#

Suppose I could just forego filling in pages in story order and focus on relatively simple ones for now. Atlow for example has a page created, but its bare bones

iron umbra
#

i also had the idea to do the work as i played through the game

#

it's a lot more enjoyable that way, but a bit more time consuming d:

balmy robin
#

tbh i dont mind the time, its just theres a lot of early enemies that summon or start with minions, or have multiple phases. Commander, Sandora Elite, Virage, Firebird, Greham, Drake, Fruegal for both battles, Doel....Kinda wanna get the format for those set before going through them all

craggy wind
#

@balmy robin Good morning! Thanks for getting back to us quickly. Right now we're at the stage of finalizing these two prototypes, so we can unlock those two categories completely and refer all editors to the prototypes as a model. I'll check out Jiango now and post final checklists for that and Hellena Prison.

For Bosses with minions and/or phases, we can probably select secondary prototypes that start out modeling Jiango, then we tinker with layout options for minions, phases, et cetera. Then that secondary prototype becomes the model for other bosses that also have minions/phases/etc.

craggy wind
#

Hey yall! We're near the finish line for the new Boss and Location prototypes (Jiango and Hellena Prison). Here are checklists for both, which we must complete to consider them ready for final review. Then we will unlock all Location and Boss articles for editing - woo!

For all prototypes, once we finish these checklist items I envision we'll need a three-step process for final review. We must ensure we meet the goals of the wiki and do a final check for missing info. We're looking for 95-100% completion of in-game content. Out-of-game info should be considered a stretch goal (aka 108 status).

  1. Get opinions of fellow editors for finalized prototype
  2. Check against Fandom article of same type (pick a few per prototype).
  3. LoD fan review: 4-6 people give honest opinion compared to same page on Fandom wiki (i.e. are we achieving our goals in terms of accuracy, neatness, comprehensiveness, and so on).

Checklist - Hellena Prison

  • We forgot to move the dynamic Location code from the Location_Test template to Location template, deleting the former. I will do this now.
  • Link to Sandora is wrong (synopsis)
  • Battle formation tables are slightly mis-coded (refer to Aglis)
  • Hellena Prison should not be bold (Story1)
  • ⚠️ (humi) look into collapsible table for treasure chests
  • Can we get the two instances of "Items" above shop tables closer to said tables, like the Battle Formation tables for Aglis? Not sure if it will look better, but spacing feels weird atm.
  • we should get some opinions from each other on the Boss table. It's good enough for the moment, but just in case we think of an improvement.
  • ⚠️ (humi )Gallery must be filled
  • Check the prison for 1-2 more trivia items, but don't force it. One is fine if that's all there is.
  • Check for information exclusive to out-of-game sources like JP guidebook (takes 2 minutes). If present, we will work it into Story section and create at least one Reference.

Notes on automation/synchronized default text

  • Stardust: I think we should set the No Stardust sentence to default text in the Location template. That way, we can leave it blank when appropriate, and the sentence will auto-generate and always be consistent on every page.
  • Ditto for Shops
  • Do we want a subsection for Rest Areas and Save Points? Currently they're only mentioned in the Services summary, but they probably warrant a subsection just like Shops. Especially if we're gonna include a picture of where these are. If so, Ditto for both of these.
  • Ditto for Goods
  • Maybe Ditto for Chests? More complex because of the treasure count template we're currently using. Should be explored in a Sandbox. Drew has a theory on how to do this.
  • Ditto for Combat, probably.
  • Ditto for Gallery
  • Ditto for Trivia
  • Ditto for References.

Checklist - Jiango

  • I'm so tired from writing the first part.. didn't see that coming. SECOND WIND! this list may not be complete 👀
  • sachet anchor link is not working.
  • We need to overhaul combat section and start including key information like moveset. I figure the best way to do this is for one of you to voice chat with me so I can convey that. I can do it myself, but I need to pass my experience on so yall can do this part without leaning on me.
  • Set up automation/synchronized default text, similar to the notes in prior bullet list. (if not done already)
  • Create Gallery (bind to 4:3 for now if we use SC)
  • review and improve infobox
  • Check guidebook for exclusive info. If any present, work into story and add to References. Need to know what Emerald added?
  • IDR if all changes suggested by my prior review were made, so that may be worth a look.

@iron umbra @balmy robin <@&438499271428407297> huff huff this was a lot, phew. I am gonna find my third wind and start on the first bullet point, phew. Please help, phew.

craggy wind
#

Okay, I completed the first item. I updated the main "Location" template with the dynamic code, allowing me to remove the "Test" template.

iron umbra
#

i'll work on these changes today!

craggy wind
#

I'm claiming this one next:

Check for information exclusive to out-of-game sources like JP guidebook (takes 2 minutes). If present, we will create at least one Reference.

#

I have added some default-text items from the list as well, so we can see how it looks (use a sandbox, call the Location template, and purposely leave some variables blank).

#

Thanks @iron umbra ! Please check to see which items are crossed-out already, then claim 1-2 items at a time.

#

... how did I never see this in the guidebook translations before???

Hellena Prison. The prison Shana was taken to after the attack on Seles. This prison was built by humans, converted from the ruins of a race that had been destroyed, and is currently run by Fruegel. Jiango, who lives deep underground, is a monster that has been in the prison for a long time.

iron umbra
#

whoa! k, good reminder, let me go back to the guidebook translations

craggy wind
#

@balmy robin I just noticed your edit on Atlow. Thank you! We can do more with that post-Jiango.

iron umbra
#

the pet came with the prison 👍🏻

craggy wind
#

well, maybe lol. Unclear how long ago humans converted the ruins.

craggy wind
iron umbra
#

Completed:

  • Link to Sandora is wrong (synopsis)
  • Hellena Prison should not be bold (Story1)

Working on:

  • Battle formation tables are slightly mis-coded (refer to Aglis)
  • look into collapsible table for treasure chests
  • Can we get the two instances of "Items" above shop tables closer to said tables, like the Battle Formation tables for Aglis? Not sure if it will look better, but spacing feels weird atm.
#

Clarification:

  • look into collapsible table for treasure chests

these are already collapsible, will apply same to battle formations so that all tables are collapsible in Hellena Prison/Location

craggy wind
#

forgive me, I meant to write collapsed by default

iron umbra
#

NOTE: mobile (portrait v landscape) v desktop site; can we look into optimizing mobile reformatting as 2/3 of our audience will be using mobile?

craggy wind
craggy wind
#

going for fifth wind but my cat has immobilized me.

jovial lava
#

Cat knows what's best for you

craggy wind
iron umbra
#

completed:
⚠️Battle formation tables are slightly mis-coded (refer to Aglis)
⚠️Can we get the two instances of "Items" above shop tables closer to said tables, like the Battle Formation tables for Aglis? Not sure if it will look better, but spacing feels weird atm.

adjustment:
⚠️ look into automatic collapsible table for treasure chests

balmy robin
#

@craggy wind I'll be able get onto tonight and see what can immediately be done, like fixing the sachet anchor. I did see the guidebook info, so I can put that in as well. References I may need help figuring out. I remember when I tried to tackle it before, the method from the example just wasnt working. Beyond that, I'd like some clarification on movesets and infoboxes. (And no rush of course to any of these. Take your time, rest, find some fireflies, etc.)

  • With there being a table for all attacks / actions already, as well as already mentioning special mechanics like Jiango sleeping, I'd like to know what changes you envision?

  • Same for infobox, purely because with there already being a full completed stat table in combat, I don't think a full duplication is needed, which is initially why it just became a slimmed down version of it. We could add a species listing? Humanoid enemy, wingly enemy, monster, etc. Possibly factions?

#

Also I may have to take a deeper dive on enemy stats and compare to the spreadsheet. Yesterday fighting atlow a couple times provided different stats each time, neither of which matched the spreadsheet. Hoping this isnt a widespread problem

craggy wind
#

Okay, sounds good! Just beware that we're crossing things off with strikethrough text. Once things are claimed, I put a warning emoji on it (for now anyway). @balmy robin

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For changes, I just mean we need to make the layout look a bit better. It's very plain atm and we want to get it looking neat/tidy/uniform-ish. We have to figure out what goes above or below each other, too.

#

The idea of the infobox is a summary, so maybe we should keep the infobox simpler? Just a name and picture at the upper-right corner?

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We can't do species for most monsters, but all humans and winglies could be labeled as such. Maybe Species for everyone, and the ones we don't know will just say "Unknown".

#

Your Atlow experience terrified me haha. I sure hope that is solvable. Either you jumped difficulties via DraMod, SC is randomizing stats, or.. i don't want to know.

balmy robin
#

Yeah, its got some scary implications. But I'll try to verify and recreate a few times. Was using saves 220 and 219 from the link you provided for a forced a battle and story battle respectively. battle 2 had no mods, but tbh didnt check the first 1. My first thought was maybe the game uses a base stat, but spawns an enemy with an "acceptable" range from the stat

I can get on board with eliminating stats from the infobox. Name, Element, Picture, Dropped items sounds good to me. Would allow me to remove it from the combat table and reserve it purely for consistent things like stats, xp, and gold.

Species honestly wouldve just been limited to human, wingly, giganto, virage, dragon, spirit, and monster. Though the monster category would be incredibly vague.

craggy wind
#

Did you check our data dump to see which one is the apparent "correct" one?

#

sned that over to the others

#

or just tell them what you determine

#

i agree on infobox downsizing, so that should be part of Jiango's checklist.

balmy robin
#

I will, thats what I was referencing when I did comparisons. Iirc Atlow only had 1 result when searched. But again, I'll be verifying everything when I can

craggy wind
#

Let me know when we can do a call together. I'll be generally available this evening and try to sync up with you

#

it's possible scripts alter stats?? Since they alter % chance a move is used from the enemy movepool (rendering our beautiful data dump useless, ugh)

#

but that'd be weird. I don't think I've ever seen scripts alter stats.

balmy robin
#

that....would suck tremendously

craggy wind
#

it actively sucks lol

#

I mean it tells us their initial considerations perhaps, but scripts appear to be the "final adjustment on top"

#

they pull data but can also alter data, I guess.

craggy wind
#

@balmy robin checking in

balmy robin
#

unable to do anything for what i estimate to be an hr and 10 min

#

enough time to put kids to bed, then dishes, then i should be good provided the wife doesnt add any errands

craggy wind
#

I may be out of commission by then. If you do wiki stuff tonight, only claim line items that aren't crossed out and don't have a Warning emoji.

#

probably start small with the Sachet anchor link and increase automation for blank variables on the Boss template. Look at how I set up the Location template with default text for the variables, which is used if a variable is called but left blank (i.e. Combat= [no text after equals sign]). Use the same sentence "style" for each variable, like I did.

balmy robin
#

alright, i should be good now if you still are

craggy wind
#

Hihi, text only.

balmy robin
#

gotcha. Then you were referring to the text that reads like {{{Services|This location has no services (save points, rest areas, or shops).}}} as being the text that fills in when theres nothing there, correct?

craggy wind
#

Correct.

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The bar with nothing after, would make the variable appear blank if left empty when called upon. Otherwise, that call will just show the variable name on the article, which is bad.

#

Bar to make it empty, bar with content for default appearance.

balmy robin
#

ah, gotcha

#

What about being able to remove the clickable button to expand for story 2 for bosses that simply don't have too much story behind them?

craggy wind
#

I forget which ones I already did in the Boss template, though, so see if you can add any. Skip story - there will always be story for each boss.

#

Not sure yet, but I have percolating ideas about it. Leave it to me for now.

balmy robin
#

yes, but if we were to use Atlow as an example, he has some story, which can go in story 1. But I wouldnt say he would have enough to warrant the 2nd box

#

alrighty then

craggy wind
#

It's okay, I'll worry about that for now.

balmy robin
#

gotcha, then it appears you've already edited gallery, trivia, and references. Which is really the only things that would ever be left blank, as there's always going to be combat info and story info

craggy wind
#

Ah I see. Oops.

#

Onward to check for exclusive lore?

balmy robin
#

noted. Though it doesnt seem like the text is autofilling on jiango for the sections currently empty

craggy wind
#

Ghost in the machine?

balmy robin
#

seems like it. Same text code as in the location template, but still nothing after the section header

#

also, wording. When a reference is empty shouldn't we say "This article has no references" instead of location or boss?

#

Okay, figured it out. For it to autofill you've gotta completely avoid putting the section itself inside the written article.

tonights work consisted of :

  • Sachet Anchor fixed : good ole case of a capital instead of a lowercase letter
  • reviewed and improved infobox, trimming stats and adding species tag as discussed. This prompted a removal of dropped items from stat table.
  • only new jiango lore from cross referencing jp guidebook was what you mentioned previously in regards to the prison itself, it has been added into Story2. References still elude me.

Still needs work :

  • add references
  • contribute images to infobox/gallery
  • combat section overhaul
iron umbra
#

made some last minute updates to Hellena Prison, but nothing new to cross off the list

#

if minor mob enemies are hyperlinked to pages, do we really need to hyperlink the same enemies in battle formations? i vote no, but pls weigh in

iron umbra
craggy wind
craggy wind
craggy wind
craggy wind
craggy wind
#

Okay, hello, I'm here.

craggy wind
#

Things are looking good. I need to do a few chores, then I'll work on another line item.

iron umbra
craggy wind
#

Jiango already has several, so unless there's something blatant in the JP guidebook it's done for now.

#

one of them is already sorta borderline-ish (skulls indicating Jiango's diet)

#

Hellena trivia task will probably consist of checking the submaps really quick with SC warps. There's a small bridge above the Merchant's docking area, where it's easy to miss a large head with an eerie green glow. But, we should be careful, because it can easily be a case where 99% of trivia is just notes about submap details. We'll have to draw some kind of line as to what qualifies, haha.

#

typical trivia will include: notes on inconsistencies, beta content, and out-of-game content.

#

For example, one piece of trivia for Hellena is that during the 1st-visit jailbreak, Dart and Shana's models are leftover beta assets that didn't get replaced.

craggy wind
#

i added content for the savepoints, as well as a new line for trivia. (Hellena Prison)

#

We are nearly done with the Location prototype. This is big!!!!!!!

craggy wind
#

@balmy robin are you free tonight before midnight CDT?

balmy robin
craggy wind
#

kk

balmy robin
craggy wind
#

I'm in voice chat

craggy wind
#

slef note: make reference entry for Jiango page, (end of Story2)

balmy robin
#

okay, so today we figured out that to align a whole row you would put style="text-align: right;" {{!}} In one of the rows with {{!}}-

#

whereas to change a specific cell you would place it directly in front of the values within that cell

#

examples {{!}}-style="text-align: right;" {{!}} to change the row right under it

#

whereas style="text-align: right;" {{!}} Attack {{!}}{{!}} would ONLY align the cell holding the word "Attack"

#

there is a way to just effect columns, however the wiki doesn't seem to recognize the {{Table Alignment}} code thats supposed to be the line before the table itself.

Ideally (according to example) it would look like {{Table alignment}} {{{!}} class="Wikitable Sortable col2right" if for example i was aligning column 2

craggy wind
craggy wind
#

I found the inspiration and wrote the beginnings of the Dragon article. Hopefully yall like it!

balmy robin
#

ooh, nice!

iron umbra
#

omg omg omg

craggy wind
#

I will take that as positive, heh.

balmy robin
#

of course! though it does make me think we need to figure out references so we can cite the bit about dragon eyes and the 2nd 7-eyed dragon

craggy wind
balmy robin
#

10 TIMES - well. this makes my challenge scarier.

craggy wind
#

Shall I go for three?

craggy wind
#

Good news and bad news. The bad news is... I already wrote an article for Dragon Block Staff four years ago. I don't remember doing that, and when I typed the article name the site said the page was not created. Apparently that's because I typo'd "Dragoon Block Staff". 🤦🏻

#

Example of synopses, old on top:

image.png
#

it's fun to look at little things I did differently, like ancient relic > magical artifact.

craggy wind
#

Cleaned up. Phew!

craggy wind
#

On fire with a third article.

dart-burn.gif
balmy robin
#

nice! on a roll

craggy wind
#

I got as far as I could! Not bad for being stuck in a car with a crap-ton of acid reflux. Here's the start of the article Divine Tree.

indigo condor
craggy wind
#

Yeah, it'll be a part of the Kadessa article as well unless it's there already.

#

Hi Bease. ^_^

indigo condor
#

I hope you recover from your acid reflux soon 😦
I find that chewing gum can help!

craggy wind
#

I used to quite a bit, but tums is my solution hehe.

#

I admit to using a small amount of ko-fi money on a container of Tums once. <_<

iron umbra
craggy wind
#

Mm. The next pass on Divine Tree should include the pozzle, since it's about that very thing haha.

craggy wind
#

I wrote all that Divine Tree content.. forgetting my hyper-rare find of the tree's height from the SIGGRAPH magazine. Amended. 🫠

I may or may not have also created an article for Soa and the Tesfer Realm.

balmy robin
#

As this is my first time hearing about the tesfer realm, my reaction is : WHAT!?

craggy wind
#

How were you here so often yet missing that? xD

#

Devs felt it necessary to pull back the curtain, but only enough to leave us befuddled with a singular fragment of the top-level backstory.

balmy robin
craggy wind
#

Surprise!

#

I think I'm gonna keep writing lore as a way to inspire others to step forward and help out. We got so close to finishing two prototypes, and a third was under way. I can't let that momentum evaporate.

craggy wind
#

I have created an article featuring a shortlist of known Dimensions.

balmy robin
#

Could also include info on Melbus phases, as I dont think hes travelling through time in the physical realm with the party. course it COULD also just be because battle takes place in the tree

iron umbra
austere jacinth
#

ME: maybe i should offer to help with templates for the wiki
also me looking back at old wiki template edits: it burnssssssss

image.png
#

also not to sure if media wiki and Fandoms wikia use similar or even close to similar tagging
I will stick with finishing my playthrough before doing any sort of wiki work though lol

craggy wind
#

I don't recognize the content.. looks like it's for a different game?

#

@austere jacinth our template system seems a lot simpler than what you're showing.

We lost our only two helpers to RL, so I am in a really rough spot haha. I'm trying to encourage us to get the wiki in a good state by December 2 but it seems like that goal is tougher and tougher to achieve with each passing day. Especially now that I'm the only editor.

Fandom and core MW are very similar. The main problem in my experience is that Fandom's system necessarily lags behind in version number, and their syntax / eligible codes are modified. Someone once tried to copy-paste a Fandom article to our in-house wiki, and it came out a total mess. They didn't even try the Preview function first! sigh

#

If you're down to have a 10-15 minute chat with me, we can review the in-house wiki. Then you'll know what the landscape is and whether it's a good fit for you.

balmy robin
#

I should be all set to get back to workin on it in 2 weeks. As it is ive just been ensuring availability for the injured 4 yr old.

craggy wind
#

Sounds good, RL first as always.

austere jacinth
craggy wind
#

Ouch. At first glance, this looks really bad. It's not like that at all in our system.

craggy wind
#

The pattern continues. Going for the Dragon Campaign, even though I don't fully feel ready to tackle that yet. Just needs to happen.

austere jacinth
balmy robin
#

So just to kinda give my input, as you already have some experience and you seem willing to help - before i had to take my break from things what we really needed to work on (to my memory) was

  • presentation for tables and such. See if we could spruce it up a bit, maybe try different formats or styles y'know? Specifically for monster stats and attacks. Should have some sandbox pages

  • gallery implementation. Likely gonna need more coordination with Drew. Things like sizing, templates, maybe gif implementation?

  • references. Theres tons of canon info from non-game sources that are hard to track down, and should be cited

That about right, @craggy wind ?

#

(general content addition as well, of course)

craggy wind
#

Sec

#

Based on the pinned post.. Hellena is only missing gallery and a bit of table review (mainly Boss shortlist, though it looks pretty good). I also forgot to code a reference, so I'll pick that back up.

For Jiango: Discuss how we display combat data, explore a few options in sandbox before deciding (crucial!). Gallery. Refs. So, yes, looks like you have the same understanding.

craggy wind
craggy wind
#

Okay, so.. now there are multiple lore articles built up pretty well. That is a relief, big progress in just a few days.

#

@balmy robin do you want to have a short meeting to review the tables, or just play chat tag? I imagine that'll be the easiest task.

balmy robin
#

chat tag, if its not too much an inconvenience 😅

craggy wind
#

Okay.

Second-easiest will be gallery. Pics aren't hard, but we need to be consistent about a V1 pass on sizing. Actually, I think @iron umbra did send me a package so I'll upload those tonight for Hellena. Jiango, we'll talk about after the boss table thingy.

Refs might be the toughest, but only because I may need to have "proof" posted somewhere in the archive. I'm not sure. Will do the research tomorrow and come back with my findings.

#

we're gonna get these prototypes finished before the next MC is born, or my name isn't DrewUniverse.

craggy wind
#

@thorn ruin We're getting an error on image uploads. I am investigating, should be able to fix it myself.

The source file appears to upload successfully. However, the wiki creates smaller versions on its own, and is throwing an error 127 about that.

At first glance, the directory tree it's trying to use doesn't exist. /usr/bin/convert

thorn ruin
#

I installed imagemagick, should work now

#

Also doing a system update because there are like 160+ packages out of date

craggy wind
#

Please do.

#

error persists:
Error creating thumbnail: /bin/bash: line 1: /usr/local/bin/convert: No such file or directory Error code: 127

thorn ruin
#

Why is it trying to use a different path now lol

#

You should log in every week or two and do a system upgrade

#

fyi

craggy wind
#

Which system?

#

I'll make notes and set a recurring calendar event

thorn ruin
#

The server

craggy wind
#

I dunno the first thing about that, apologies

thorn ruin
# 
sudo apt update
sudo apt upgrade
craggy wind
#

Got it, ty.

#

As for the changed directory, I added one line since we seemed to be missing it. The line contains local, but I didn't remove the other one. Based on a quick search, which directory is used may depend on the ImageMagick version installed.

## is writable, then set this to true:
$wgEnableUploads = true;
$wgUseImageMagick = true;
$wgImageMagickConvertCommand = "/usr/bin/convert";
$wgImageMagickConvertCommand = "/usr/local/bin/convert";
#

I can remove that line if it's screwing things up

thorn ruin
#

It's in /usr/bin

#

The last line is overwriting the one with the correct path

craggy wind
#

I will remove it and try again.

#

Where is the usr subfolder located? I don't see it in main wiki dir or /images

thorn ruin
#

/usr

craggy wind
#

I genuinely do not get that result from ls -la in main dir.

#

I see tests, vendor, webroot in alpha order

thorn ruin
#

It's not in the wiki folder

#

/usr is the whole path

craggy wind
#

Okay. Can you understand how that is confusing me? xD

thorn ruin
#

It starts with /, it's an absolute path

craggy wind
#

meaning the root of the VPS?

thorn ruin
#

The system root, /

#

Like if you saw a path on windows that said "C:/whatever" it's from the system root, not C:/program files/wiki/C:/whatever

craggy wind
#

How may I nav to that directory?

thorn ruin
#

cd /usr

craggy wind
#

OHHHHHH

#

It's at the absolute top. I was in var like an idiot.

#

intelligence restored, thank you for your patience.

#

So it doesn't want to convert in-dir, it wants to convert externally and then shunt the converted images back in the wiki space afterward.

#

Okay, I've removed the line I added.

thorn ruin
#

No, it uses /usr/bin/convert to do the conversion

craggy wind
#

Right

thorn ruin
#

It can't write to /usr/bin

craggy wind
#

Good news: I broke the site
... but I fixed it because it was just a typo.

thorn ruin
#

Lol

craggy wind
#

WE HAVE THUMBNAILS!

#

ImageMagick working as intended, now that it's actually present.

thorn ruin
#

I'm going to remove nginx, it's crashing on startup because it's trying to bind to ports apache is already bound to

#

It may or may not cause issues because some packages are only installed because it's installed, if that happens I'll reinstall them in a few

#

Nevermind, cloudpanel relies on it

#

Is cloudpanel working right now?

craggy wind
#

one moment

#

back, had real life

#

I logged into CloudPanel successfully. @thorn ruin

thorn ruin
#

Okay

craggy wind
#

Are you doing a once-over of all packages to see if we actually need them?

thorn ruin
#

Ah I see cloudpanel runs its own nginx service

#

No it was just causing the upgrade to fail because it was trying to start nginx and failing

#

Should be fine now

craggy wind
#

okay

#

I have set a recurring calendar to-do for the update/upgrade

thorn ruin
#

I did a kernel upgrade, you may want to reboot the whole server

craggy wind
#

Anything else you want me to check on or make a recurring reminder for?

thorn ruin
#

Nope

craggy wind
#

kk

#

Alright, ty

#

@balmy robin after a weird detour, image uploading now fully works again.

#

server rebooted

#

Hi Humi, I see you there. Uploading your set as we speak.

craggy wind
craggy wind
#

Gallery tested and working.

#

Table is fine for now, we can iterate as we go with minimal extra work if needed over time.

As for references.. I don't have the brain to digest all of it right now but this is the manual for references. There is also a plugin to supposedly make managing them easier.

craggy wind
#

Can't get a basic reference to work. Looking into it.

iron umbra
#

i'm just a-lurking to stay updated c:

craggy wind
#

Help enlisted for references. I'll get an answer soon.

With that, it's time to open the gates and start converting all pre-existing location articles to the dynamic format.

craggy wind
#

Banging on all cylinders tonight

#

Apparently reference tags aren't part of core MediaWiki... which I find really strange.

thorn ruin
#

Banging on all cyclinders eh?

craggy wind
#

A weird day calls for phrases I never use.

thorn ruin
#

I think you may be the only person who's ever used it 😆

jovial lava
#

Which explains why they've never used it

craggy wind
#

Thanks tfz, you really helped.

jovial lava
#

I've got your back

craggy wind
#

Spoken like a true NPC ally in UT2004.

#

Thanks to Monoxide finding a way to get my brain unstuck, I can finally enable reference tags on the wiki. Phew.

#

References enabled.

#

@balmy robin finishing touches can be applied to Hellena as we go. Locations unlocked. Now, I want to finalize Jiango so we can say most boss articles are open for editing.

balmy robin
craggy wind
#

I have resolved the months-long issue of Popups not working correctly, as well as the issue bugging account creation.

#

New issue: Extra space(s) after links. aYaaaaa

craggy wind
#

side note to consider support for video embed and interactive map.

craggy wind
#

Setting up Gallery test for Jiango article. I'd like us to check said gallery on the most widely-used browsers. I'm hoping we can standardly use WebP files or similar, so as to keep the articles lean in terms of load time.

craggy wind
#

Side note to discuss, then choose between:

  1. Separate infoboxes, aka "cards", for entities with more than one classification (i.e. boss, player character).
  2. Single, modular infobox as a "one size fits all" for bosses, bosses who are player characters, bosses with lots of other data, et cetera.

Having a discussion about how to handle "multi" articles will be paramount, once we've gotten the one-dimensional articles established. This includes articles such as Kongol, Zieg, bosses with two appearances, and so on.

craggy wind
#

Jiango is pretty much done. I'm moving on to the player-character template and prototype.

balmy robin
#

can confirm gallery works on mobile version of chrome at the very least

#

really have gotten some crazy momentum and a lot of stuff done, bravo

craggy wind
#

indeed. It's just necessity given form.

#

Looks like resized versions and/or previews are put into PNG, but that's not so bad given the webp source is tiny already.

#

opening full WebP works in Edge. Can someone check a few Apple-side browsers as well as Firefox?

craggy wind
#

I have converted the Player Character template to be dynamic.

craggy wind
#

Things I am noticing:

  1. Dart's page needs a ton of triage in the story section.
  2. I can soup up the template more than I thought.
  3. Variable names can be both fun and accessible (DragStat, DragMag, Daddy).
jovial lava
#

and programming functions

#

like getTrans 😛

craggy wind
#

Hah. Every time you type it, a wild Drew appears.

craggy wind
#

This article was a hot mess. I've wrangled it into better shape, but more work needs to be done and I am officially out of spoons for dynamic conversion for awhile.

Improvements to the Dart prototype:

  1. Created dynamic template for Player-chars
  2. Replace static code with dynamic code on Dart's page.
  3. did all those annoying table vert-bar code conversions.
  4. Numerous misc. fixes
  5. Added gallery placeholder
  6. commented-out most of Story section.
  7. I forget what else

To-Do before player-char articles are open for editing:

  1. Story section needs massive overhaul or rewrite from scratch.
  2. add list of compatible equipment (exclude accessories, just link to the main article for now).
  3. Stat table: remove speed, move HP to second-column position.
  4. Figure out how to make Divine Dragoon section appear collapsed/vague until clicked-to-expand?
  5. Revise infobox (requires discussion)
  6. Make and test a reference. I put the <references /> tag in the dynamic template, to potentially remove the need to add that on each article. Not sure if it'll work, but it's already stopping the "this section is empty" autotext.
  7. Add Gallery images. 1280x960 for 4:3 shots, 1920x1080 for Combat shots (we'll try it out, can always clip them to 4:3 with no need for second batch of shots). Start with PNGs and convert to WebP (ezgif.com is a great resource for this if you don't have Photoshop or similar).
  8. Probably something else.
craggy wind
misty adder
craggy wind
#

Welcome to our newest helper, @pallid granite (Pronounced ah-sif-er). Started off with a story paragraph for Fletz.

I am going to try to convert all location articles to the dynamic template format this afternoon, starting now.

pallid granite
#

Thank you @craggy wind. happy to be a part of it!

craggy wind
#

I had an epiphany. Instead of manually replacing every vertical bar in tables with {{!}}, so they'll work inside dynamic template calls.. I can instead chuck the table code in LibreOffice and do a mega-fast find-and-replace for every vertical bar. Time saved!!!!! Useful for anyone who needs to convert tables in a flash.

image.png
craggy wind
#

All Chapter 1 location articles have been converted to the dynamic template. 👍🏻 108

A reminder that approved editors may work on any location article, even if it's using the old system. When articles are converted, all your work will carry over.

craggy wind
#

I have finished converting all location articles to the new, improved, dynamic template. All of them will now stay in sync in terms of layout. This also includes some assorted fixes and added content, like missing synopses for almost every location article. 🙌🏻

pallid granite
#

Thank you for all of that work @craggy wind ! Also, Fueno and Fletz now have Story1 updated along with the synopsis for Fueno. I'll be starting work on Kazas either tonight or tomorrow.

craggy wind
#

You're super welcome.

slow trench
#

This is what I have so far for Evergreen forest- I have no played the game in a very long time so I have been using a walkthrough to help:

Evergreen forest:
Evergreen forest is a forest where the animals whom were once tame, have now become a menace to the surrounding areas. Dart and crew have to find Kamuy and put a stop to him. They instead find Teo, who is Kamuys friend. Teo tells everyone that it wasn't Kamuy's fault and that he was only trying to protect Fa. When no one believe Teo, Kamuy attacks some of the soldiers and Teo jumps on his back and they run away. Dart and crew head back to Furni the Water City to regroup.

1 save spot

DART: "This is Kamuy!?"
Resident knight Harris: "everybody surround it!!" Finally I found it!
Bulgus "I'll get him and I'll get the five times larger prize!!" Let me kill it!!
Little boy: "stop it!"
Harris: Teo!! Are you all right!!
Teo: Everybody listen! It was not Kamuy's fault! It was a different monster that attacked Fa!
Harris: Teo!! Leave Kamuy!!
Teo: no way!! Cuz Kamuy protected Fa! So I'll protect Kamuy this time! Please!! Don't kill Kamuy.
Harris: Teo! It's no longer the Kamuy you knew! Many other people were attacked by it!
Knight: guys! let's grab Teo first!
Teo: stop it
Kamuy howls and then starts running around and attacking the knights in the circle one by one until it gets to Teo. Teo then climbs on Kamuys back and they run away.
Harris: Teo! Pursue them!

Shana: the wolf called Kamuy. They say it used to be Teo's, I wonder why it became savage?
Dart: I don't know. The only thing we know is that the wolf is a menace in the forest now.

short ember
#

@craggy wind What's the state of the wiki right now?
Is there anything I should know if I want to do a few location articles or something?

craggy wind
#

Much progress since you were last here. Location articles got a code revamp, so the layout is always synchronized across all of them. Hellena Prison is the model article for the rest, and is essentially complete (all sections filled). Feel free to edit any location article.

#

Before we re-open the other types, we have to finish the style guides for them and complete a full article as a basis (as with Hellena).

#

Important: If you add a new table to any location article (that uses the synced template system), the one downside is that all the vertical bar characters - |||| - have to be replaced with {{!}} for each one. It was a bit cumbersome for a bit, but then I realized I could use find-and-replace in LibreOffice to do it in mere seconds per table. See here: #1194378507032211467 message

Although I converted every location article with the synced template code, I don't think I converted all the old tables in each article. Some may need converting to the above system; it was months ago so I'm not sure.

short ember
#

Nice. Got it.

I like how Hellena looks. It needs an image in the infobox in the top right corner through.

I added a handfull of treasure entires on evergreen forest. Then went the complete other direction and started redoing Darts story section. Tell me how you think it reads.

On the main page, all the top level links are not working. Is that on purpose? And are the sandboxes still availble?

craggy wind
#

Ah yes, an image for the infobox.

craggy wind
#

I have reviewed Evergreen Forest changes.

  • Infobox: "Kamui" is technically correct, but the playerbase will expect the spelling given in-game. (Kamuy)
  • There should be auto-generated text when Goods, Stardust, and other fields are left blank. However, since we have variables for main sections as well as subsections, that's probably what is tripping up the activation of some instances.
  • description text for third Treasure. Should say something like "the party" instead of "we."

Otherwise, very good update.

Semi-related idea. I wonder if we can set auto-generated text for blank variables in the infoboxes? That way the language would always be identical across articles with parameters that equate to nil.

short ember
#

It would be nice if it auto generated something for goods and stardust entries if it's blank because so many locations have none. I just wrote it in, because it feels off to have nothing at all. Could be more effort than its worth though. Ditto for info boxes. If it's easy to automate that stuff I'd say go for it. Otherwise writing it in manually isn't hard.

craggy wind
#

I'm torn about it. On the one-hand, auto-generated text is generally best practice. On the other, there are a static and limited number of locations, and it'd be much less heady to just write in manually for each article (so long as we keep the same wording, which could be part of a reference doc in the resource archive).

short ember
#

Up to you.
My two cents is that the automation isn't worth it.

craggy wind
#

I think it's worth it in cases where we don't have nesting, but I'd rather it be all-or-nothing for the most part. Hmm. I'd like a few days to think it over, since we don't have anyone else to weigh in atm.

#

For all we know, it might be as simple as asking in the MediaWiki Discord. Perhaps they have an answer for this already.

#

It's my first time creating and using dynamic templates (ones that keep article layouts synchronized), so my knowledge here is amateur.

thorn ruin
#

Dart trivia says "mose"

image.png
craggy wind
#

Yes, short for Moses. Remember, he's the messiah!

short ember
#

I've been working on Dart's story section. Feedback would be great. Thanks!

craggy wind
#

Welcome to our newest wiki editor: @empty adder ! 👋🏻

craggy wind
#

check if we can rename file uploads

craggy wind
#

@short ember Heyo, I have belated feedback on your Dart edit.

I think we need to gut all these uses of bold text. Insofar we have only used it for the article synopses, partly so the pop-up preview box works when mousing-over a link. I'm not sure if you started that in the older edit, but either way we need to have a conversation as a group before making a large change in our conventions.

Minor typos and grammar issues. General wording is good. A few links may need to be renamed. Overall it's some good story text. I'm sure we can keep most of it for the long-term.

short ember
#

Thanks for the feedback!

I can't remember why I did the bold text thing. But I have no problem getting rid of it.

Great! I'll keep working on it.

craggy wind
#

Okay, see you in another month LOL! Just kidding.

craggy wind
craggy wind
empty adder
#

I think that there should be an "Inhabitants" section on Location articles, and each NPC can be listed by order of precedent. One, important NPCs. These would include NPCs like Tasman or Minister Noish who deserve their own articles. Two, named but unimportant NPCs whose individual articles, if made, would only be stubs. This would include Plos, Isha, and Lowe. Three, unnamed NPCs who offer lore or other insight into the game world. Includes the NPC in Seles who mentions being unable to travel between Seles and Bale because of the guardian in the Limestone Cave. Four, unnamed NPCs who don't say anything of note. The person who whines to Dart about how he feels about Shana. So the list would look something like: [[Tasman]] ─ combat instructor and tutorial NPC, Plos ─ explains purpose of attack to Dart blah blah, Isha ─ blah blah, Lowe ─ blah blah, unnamed NPC who mentions Limestone guardian, four other NPCs. This would give us a place to mention NPCs without having a bunch of stub articles.

craggy wind
#

Side note that, although the stories differ in several ways, it may be worth noting the manga or the novel as trivia items occasionally. For example, on Seles, we can mention the name given for the jealous NPC who has feelings for Shana.

empty adder
#

Sure. The "four other NPCs" in my example were the two dead men on the first screen in Seles, the guy who whines about Shana, and the injured NPC on the far left side on the second screen. In Seles, only Tasman deserves his own page, Plos, Isha, and Lowe get their own mention by virtue of being named, and the one woman with Tasman who mentions the Limestone cave gets a separate listing because she says something relevant.

#

I didn't realize that one dude had a name, though.

craggy wind
empty adder
#

I agree.

craggy wind
#

Just my first thoughts but it sounds like you have a good idea here.

empty adder
#

Thanks!

craggy wind
#

It'll be beautifully awkward to have vague names as specific people, like the Mysterious Adventurer haha.

empty adder
#

lol It might help prune the long sentence on the Kazas page by moving his mention to another section, though.

craggy wind
#

Note that although our template keeps the layout in sync for all locations, we will still need to write in that variable name on each location article. We can start in the sandbox, using Hellena NPCs. Once we're happy with the layout, we can put it on the Hellena article and open it up for all articles.

#

Sound good?

empty adder
#

Sure!

craggy wind
#

Rad. You can get us started if you want, else I'll start as soon as I get home.

craggy wind
#

I do not see any changes, so I will get started in a sandbox.

#

@empty adder I suddenly remembered something I forgot to tell you. While we were reviewing your first edit, I realized we may have a clean-ish solution already for the "there's nothing here" sentences.

We already have a mini template for treasure chests. One sentence, one variable we add a number to, and boom. Clean output, always the same wording everywhere. So why not create a few more mini templates with the "nothing here" sentences? Heck, we might be able to nest them all in one template and call the portion we need.

craggy wind
#

I have completed a V1 draft of the new onboarding document. The purpose is to give newcomers an option to simply read the doc and get started - mostly without my input (except account creation). Or, if I'm guiding someone, I can ensure I won't miss anything. On that note, a few things are probably missing - that's where you come in!

So, I'm looking for some feedback on the new document. Is it readable enough? Are things presented in an order that makes sense to you? Am I missing something? Other thoughts? Please let me know.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1V7OjaEfJVmqhhCngDU7-hYgEbsud9IX_qOqSOPGdbWk/edit?tab=t.0

Tagging assorted peeps who this pertains to, plus former editors who may be interested in returning for a little while. @strange wing @short ember @empty adder @balmy robin @pallid granite @indigo condor @iron umbra

balmy robin
#

Will look it over sometime tonight 👍

craggy wind
#

👀 accidental big update to Dragoon article. Looks like this may be one of the Lore prototypes. It's coming together, yeah?

balmy robin
#

I think its good! My only nit pick is choosing an existing location article as an objective default thing to edit for the first time.

I know you mentioned accomodating specific requests of course, but still. The plus side is that it can be a method to fully flesh out the articles, but at some point there wont be anymore objective information that needs done. So at best the longevity of this approach isnt long, and at worst it means constantly fixing potential mistakes on articles that were solid.

I suggest a sandbox style test article (ie just create the formatting, make a table, insert a template etc), OR have them begin a NEW article that can be built up

craggy wind
#

I can understand said nitpick. I wrote that because almost everything else is closed off to new editors until we can finish the prototypes.

Letting them work in a sandbox can help them test their skills, however, and we can create an array of test options (i.e. make a table about XYZ, see how close it matches the same table on XYZ article).

#

I used to have people make new articles as part of their training sometimes, but the process is different now. Besides, we'll run out of articles to create.

#

Thank you for the feedback.

balmy robin
#

happy to help

And while I would totally be up for helping more on the wiki, my schedule barely allows time to work on my alternate dragoon mod as is. May be better suited for when I can get that done

craggy wind
#

I'll just have to make you jealous by bringing in more helpers. 😛

craggy wind
#

for later: add trivia note to Fueno that later in the main plot the Woodcutter from the Prairie arrives at the Inn.

empty adder
#

@craggy wind I looked at your onboarding document and don't have any feedback since it looks fine to me. However, I also just updated the Seles page and there are some inconsitencies that I should point.

#

In particular, the onboarding document states that article names will not use ranks or titles. However, the Seles paged like to an article called "Emperor Doel" instead of just "Doel."

craggy wind
#

Seles and most of the other location articles need to be brought in line with Hellena, is all. Things like that are expected, and will need to be fixed.

empty adder
#

Well the problem in this case is that the article really is called "Emperor Doel". It would appear that the article name needs to be changed to just "Doel."

craggy wind
#

Ah, okay.

empty adder
#

There was one other discrepancy regarding character/article names. Lloyd's anonymous persona is called "The Hooded Man" when in game, he is first and most referred to as "Man in Hood".

craggy wind
#

Ah Kraysus made this article way back in 2018. Fair enough xD. We can "Move" it to Doel. Did this before a few times, so far no hiccups.

empty adder
#

Cool. I already changed the text to link to just "Doel" so that would automatically fix the nonexistent hyperlink.

craggy wind
empty adder
#

tru dat

#

Also like what even is "North of Serdio?" You mean fricken Northern Serdio?

craggy wind
#

Yes, exactly. We could keep every name as-is, but the localization is very rough. So, we can choose to use better wording for stuff like that.

#

I moved Emperor Doel to Doel. ✅

empty adder
#

I did some other assorted things with that article. In the quick reference table on the right, I changed instances of "None" to "No". I did this for agreement (if Save Point is Yes, then Rest ought be No) and because most of other Locations pages do that too, so this change was for consistency. In Combat, I changed "Minor Mobs: Yes, Scripted" to just "Scripted." I figure that any mention other than "No" indicates that there is combat, so the "Yes" just seemed redudant, and the formatting kind of implied that there was a combination of random encounters plus scripted ones.

craggy wind
#

Technically that's another convention we need to establish - the wording we use in any of the infoboxes.

empty adder
#

We also need to figure out how to put optional story content in the article. Right now, I have mention of the missable scene with Shana reacting to the carnage that you can see when you go back to Seles after Bale, but it's just sort of there. I wonder if we use a little header like "Optional" the way that the Hellena page has "Revisited"?

craggy wind
#

I agree that "yes" is redundant for Scripted.

empty adder
#

Also I put that cool beta screen with beta Dart in the gallery because why not

craggy wind
#

We can erect a section specifically for optional content, if you like. It may fit best under Story, since after that it's all gameplay-oriented stuff. Either before or after the upcoming Inhabitants section.

#

What do you think about it? Also, I am reviewing your Seles edit now.

empty adder
#

Frankly, I'm content to finesse optional content into relevant story sections using relative framing. For example if event X becomes available in Location A after the player progresses to mandatory story event Y in Location B, just go back to Location A's article and write something like "Around the time Y happens, X happens in A."

craggy wind
#

Hmmm. It may depend on the article, but I can't really say without working through every permutation (ouch!).

empty adder
#

It could get clunky.

craggy wind
#

I believe all missable scenes should be listed in some way, but not sure the best option. Maybe a standalone article? I kinda want to put them in each corresponding article a scene relates to as well, but I don't have strong feelings on it atm.

empty adder
#

For instance, Seles has more mandatory story content after the initial visit: the ending. Should the optional content be listed separately after the summary of the ending or between the initial visit and the ending where it happens chronologically? Ya know?

craggy wind
#

Hmmm. Not to say that optional content should never be in Story 1/2, but keeping it in a separate section right underneath would keep it all neatly organized, and remove any need for story 1/2 gymnastics. I vote we prototype a separate section and see how it looks alongside the other new section (Inhabitants). We can make the best opinions when we try it out with a vertical slice first.

#

and, perhaps, model at least 2 formats so we can compare the two outcomes side-by-side.

#

one being inline only, one being separate section? If I'm not overthinking this.

empty adder
#

In that case, something like a "story3" seems most appropriate.

#

I don't think there is any reason to make optional story content a whole other section like Story and Collectibles. Just nesting it into the Story section seems appropriate.

#

Maybe just make it another collapsible?

craggy wind
# empty adder <@131606461947052032> I looked at your onboarding document and don't have any fe...

Story1 is good. I pause a bit at effectuate - i like the word, but not sure how accessible it is. May trip a few people up even though the base effect ought to be obvious. I like the rest of your flavor text.

Hesitation for including the word protagonist. The wiki can never be fully in-character but I hope we can restrict it to combat/gameplay sections where possible (as you did by removing the word cutscene). Also, a bit of serendipity here - I just happened to add a note of Dart's encounter with Feyrbrand on my last edit of the Dragoon article. I might suggest a line about Feyrbrand trying to find them by damaging the nearby cliff wall, then losing interest.

Just for context: there are several similar scenes in Seles depending on exactly when the player backtracks. We have most/all of them documented in the group testing doc for SC 3.0 Beta, which should help untangle how we'll need to explain all these on the wiki.

Brownie points for intuiting that we can't easily justify a separate article for the Eastern Forest just to cover this outside-Seles portion.

craggy wind
#

I have had great trouble having a second collapsible on the same article - anywhere on the same article in fact. This may require some experimentation and research. Or, can ask in the MediaWiki Discord server. I have gotten good help there a few times in the past.

empty adder
#

You're right. "Protagonist" is a little too meta.

#

I also made the executive decision to remove the word "horse." It's obvious that they're intended to be LoD's equivalent of a horse, but if I'm not mistaken, we don't actually know that that's what they are or what the in-universe characters call them.

craggy wind
#

You made a minor mistake in Trivia #2, missing a word or two near the end.

#

They are indeed referred to as horses.

empty adder
#

If there is an instance of anyone actually calling them horses, I can change it back.

craggy wind
#

please do lol.

empty adder
#

While reading back to myself, I did notice some errors, so I'll correct those.

craggy wind
#

The anteater-head mount is a horse. The juvenile version of the mouse-face mount is referred to as a piggy. Piggies (the enemy) are orcs. Squirrels are more like rabbits. 🤷🏻 analog shifts for everything.

#

At least elves are elves...

empty adder
#

The forest article describes the critters that follow you around as "small rodents." Seems appropriate since they appear to just be lower quality models for Berserk Mouse. But in Bale, there is a house where the same model is used for what it clearly a pet, and it barks at you.

#

somethin' ain't followin'

craggy wind
#

We should also consult with translators on the names, as they may be more accurate in some cases.

#

They're nothing like Berserk Mouse, I promise.

#

The basis for Squirrel is the Merchant (tutorial edition)

#

I remember a captive one in Lohan near Pelpee's entrance, but that's all.

empty adder
#

How do we feel about the practice of illustrating the story section with screenshots?

craggy wind
#

I am going afk for dinner, but happy to re-engage soon.

#

I want us to lightly pepper most articles with a few images, so basically yes.

#

just a matter of testing on a sandbox first to make sure it looks good; i.e. learning how to neatly display them without mucking up the text alignment.

craggy wind
#

Back, had to do some RL stuff.

empty adder
#

I feel like the stats for bosses should be in a table on the upper right corner. Most people looking at a boss page are probably looking for that information, and it feels wrong to have them scroll down to the combat section to find it.

craggy wind
#

They used to be. I think I mentioned that in our call.

#

I would slightly prefer we list the stats both in the infobox and the main combat section.

empty adder
#

That would work.

craggy wind
#

Are you looking into model viewing so you can take different images for the wiki? If so, it's something I wanted to talk about as well. There are some considerations both for and against.

empty adder
#

Yeah mostly so that when you're ready to start making enemy articles, we can get some good screenshots of them. Even with the debugger, I can't really zoom in on enemies on combat stages, though.

craggy wind
#

We will need to have a serious conversation and involve a few other editors first, but I look forward to it and whatever resulting shots we start taking.

empty adder
#

Oh I haven't found the FreeCam

#

I did a thing. I'm not publishing these changes. I'm just practicing my wiki editing. Think I might be getting the hang of the rampant usage of {{}} these things.

Screenshot_2025-03-23_110135.png
craggy wind
#

Good stuff! Seeing this makes me want to dig up the old layout we were designing as well.

craggy wind
#

Crispy

untitled.png
empty adder
#

You gotta tell me how you did that.

craggy wind
#

Did what? This?

Merchant-Idle.gif
empty adder
#

yup

craggy wind
#

or maybe this? xD

Lavitz-RT_CamFollow.gif
#

It's pretty great, haha. I'd be happy to show you.

empty adder
#

The freecam is built into Severed Chains?

craggy wind
empty adder
#

ah, totally neato

craggy wind
#

It's how we found a ton of new discoveries, like the presence of a hidden beast during the Night Raid attack.

empty adder
#

love it

craggy wind
#

and verified the flyer in the Barrens is the same model in Hellena's intro, as well as a group of flyers on the Moon near Michael's statue.

empty adder
#

Do you make your gifs with an installed app or a web app?

craggy wind
#

It depends on the case. GIF Cam for quick screengrabs of whatever. Blender for high-res custom renders of images and video (requires assets to be converted with DooM's tool first, and mega worth it).

#

IDR which Blender version is recommended atm. Might be latest LTS version. @humble coral ?

empty adder
#

Probably not all that pertinent to me. I was just curious because that Lavitz gif is clean as fuck. If I was really that motivated to make models and animations, I would have done it while modding Elder Scrolls and Fallout, but I just never bothered to learn.

#

I just couldn't imagine you could get a gif that nice by screen recording, then using a web app to magic cut out the background and convert it.

craggy wind
#

We also have real (read: specific) shadows instead of blobs, using this method. I'm sure it'll come to SC in some form eventually (even if only as a mod), but in the meantime this is peak model representation so long as we are careful about positioning the light source.

#

Yeah, this is a clean render with no need to painstakingly carve out a background or anything like that. It just works as-is provided the Transparency option is checked!

#

Blender can also spit out every frame of an animation as a separate image, so you can use those images to make a perfectly clean video. It's rad.

#

I've been contemplating custom renders on the wiki for awhile (let alone elsewhere), but with the wiki I know it's easy to take it too far, thus my request for a tempered discussion first heh. But, if you want to get into custom shots (in-SC or via Blender), I am building a small team of people who generate and contribute such shots for use in our community branding. For use on the website, video uploads and streams, Discord stickers, and whatever else.

empty adder
#

Sure, there's really no reason why the wiki needs a breathing enemy in the infotable. That other stuff does sound really cool, though.

craggy wind
#

Hell yeah it does.

#

I got pulled away, but hopefully I can show you a different kind of example shortly.

craggy wind
#

Update: 😩 it will have to wait another ~3 hours at least.

craggy wind
#

OKAY. I am back, and I am doing the thing.

#

gif for looping preview

ezgif-1c497df46ac815.gif
#

So the idea is, we can make all kinds of stuff with Blender. @empty adder . But most of such things won't be for wiki use.

indigo condor
craggy wind
#

Thanks Bease! ^_^

balmy robin
#

I vaguely recall attempting to put boss stats under the boss image for jiango, but we weren't sure how much we wanted put there without completely reiterating it in the combat section. and still remaining different from the fandoms layout

IF a condensed version is wanted I think I just included element, atk, def, m.at, m.df and included the rest under combat

That said, it does look nice

craggy wind
#

It's a tough call to some extent. I think we should revisit having it in the infobox, but before deciding either way we need to design how the combat section will look in full. Else we can't make a fair judgment IMO.

#

We have lots of good data available now. All the enemy abilities and their conditions have to be wrangled into a layout that's tidy but powerful.

#

So, step 1 on this front is that at least one of us needs to start experimenting. Get all Jiango's data in their combat section and get it looking decent.

balmy robin
#

For reference, currently combats divided to 2 subsections, stats and abilities. Abilities are where the enemy actions are (with the exception of "do nothing" as a player wouldnt even know that was a thing without diving into the scripts). So that should be all the info needed if anyone smarter than me wanted to brainstorm visual appeal.

craggy wind
#

Since you bring it up, I'm planning for us to include hidden stuff like Do Nothing.

balmy robin
#

Thats fair, I just figured with the game having no indicator for turn order, and theres no way to plan around the enemy randomly not taking an action, that it wasnt much a factor for combat

craggy wind
#

It can be a very large factor, surprisingly. This commonly happens with Virage II, where it can end up taking almost no turns. A complete pushover. Sucks.

#

it's a meme fight for speedrunners.

#

Thankfully bosses are simpler than minor mobs in a few ways. No escape chance, and no need to list status immunities (we'll have a note on all bosses saying "all bosses are immune to all status ailments, as well as Can't Combat").

balmy robin
#

God I wish bosses werent automatically resistant to all status.

#

But, fair enough on "do nothing".

craggy wind
#

I feel you. I wish it was just a mitigation or had some alternate effect.

#

What a tease letting Fruegel have Fear in the JP Demo.

balmy robin
#

yeah, would give an indirect buff to rose too. Half her magic is basically useless unless youre fighting random battles

craggy wind
#

Looks like Jiango's movelist is in Sandbox 2 atm

#

...and their live article. xD

#

The current stats table is neat, but I'm not sure how much I like it.

balmy robin
#

yeah, the sandbox one was to compare whats there with a potential version that, if i remember right, was almost a direct copy from the enemy behaviors

#

Stats are gonna be tricky as currently theyre displayed down the line as they would be in game. Gonna have to break with following the game model for a different layout

#

of which all that comes to mind is seperating physical from magical stats

craggy wind
#

Right. So about that text doc.. It's one table per boss because that keep the doc consistent. But it's not always pretty. So many bosses do so many different things, it's hard to have a uniform design unless it's one table. Maybe another option is.. one table for regular-turn moves, another for bonus turn moves? But I don't want to have to review every single boss just to determine a design that works.

craggy wind
#

Alternative.. keep all stats listed like they are now, and chuck the ability table right next to it.

#

I need like, a white board with magnetic parts I can move around to visualize in realtime.

#

Gimme a boost for a sec. I'm gonna tap into all the parts of my brain that are not active. 👀

balmy robin
craggy wind
#

fair. Plus 60-75% of readers will be on mobile, where the tables will show vertically regardless.

#

Oops, his ability to sleep was not included. Fixed.

balmy robin
#

It was part of the text breakdown for the opening of the battle, after that I felt it would be too redundant to include

craggy wind
#

I get that, but I'd have to argue that all tables are complete. Else there will be a large number of possible exceptions that come down to arbitrary calls. There is supposed to be some redundancy, when there's both a summary text and a table.

balmy robin
#

thats fair, i just bring it up to see what the current mindset was. We were in agreement when it was made, but i know things change and evolve

craggy wind
#

It does feel weird regardless because it's not an offensive move, rather a special effect the player intiates. The player can almost never do this, so.. :S

#

Yeah I'm an agent of Soa now, sorrynotsorry.

balmy robin
#

lol, all good. Like I said i dont think I have much time to work on it, but its good to know what the past attempts look like and what the thought process was then vs now

craggy wind
#

I'm thinking of putting Sleep and Do Nothing in a Special Behaviors table right below the main one.

#

we may just have to craft these tables on a case-by-case basis for any complex bosses.

balmy robin
#

and we may have to better define special behaviors. For example counterattacks vs lenus or lloyds tendency to go crazy when they see a dragoon

craggy wind
#

Did we ever figure out max width per column?

balmy robin
#

I know i never did lol

craggy wind
#

or both in Lenus' case IIRC.

#

Shit.

balmy robin
#

right, thats what I mean though. A seperate move as its own action, dantons counter attack, could also just be included in the move list. A bonus turn doing an action in the move list is still doing the action in the movelist, but is still of very different nature than putting jiango to sleep for example. Its a very broad term, and while im not against using it, it will be rough to sift through

#

personally my mind still has an easier time processing the top table in sandbox2 that you posted earlier, keeping in ACTIONS while leaving out IN-ACTIONS. The exception being explanations behind how the player can cause IN-ACTION or in the case of the winglies, more ACTION.

craggy wind
#

You make some good points too. Things to mull over for sure. Also, I want to bring @strange wing in at their convenience, being the master wrangler of this content thus far.

balmy robin
#

If i cant help physically I at least try to help the process

though id be lying if i said talking about it didnt tempt me to just get to business lol

craggy wind
#

And this is a pain point! I should bring up some easier, juicier stuff to draw you in for a few irresistable edits once in awhile. 😉

balmy robin
#

honestly thatd probably work lol

craggy wind
#

Even easier templates, dynamic media, and images strewn throughout the story section? Hm? Do you want it?

balmy robin
strange wing
# craggy wind You make some good points too. Things to mull over for sure. Also, I want to bri...

I'm down to help, although in terms of organization the behavior doc is probably the best I could think of for compounding information into a small space/table. Filling it out was comprehensive, with my goal being to lose absolutely zero details while striving for the most compressed look possible.

The premise of creating general rules, tags, keywords, or categories for moves would be difficult to pull off without sacrificing nuance. For example, "Retaliate" probably has the most different rules between bosses for being a single recurring idea. Some can only be triggered by physical additions, others by magic, some by both, some include archers, some trigger even if you miss, some choose abilities at random, while others always follow a predictable behavior, some have a chance to trigger while others are guaranteed.

That all said, I did do my best to give similar or identical moves the same names in the doc when I had the liberty of naming things myself, so that might help as a baseline to work from, simply by using control f to search through the doc to try and categorize abilities.

Also wanted to say I really appreciate that you called the Behavior doc absurdly detailed in the onboarding doc, it means a lot 💙

craggy wind
#

your first paragraph is why I summoned you. Worth every MP spent! And your second paragraph is exactly what I was considering going into this headspace.

#

I'm guessing my best bet is to finesse everything into two tables: One for regular-turn moves, and one for any special behaviors at all. That way, there is consistency for every boss article, and all the complex/unique stuff is lassoed well enough into its own table. I'll make three examples for three bosses on the sandbox later today, as a proof of concept.

#

(I am aware that this may result in a few duplicate ability mentions, but I want to see if I can make it work despite that).

strange wing
#

Best of luck! I look forward to seeing your ideas

craggy wind
#

Thanks! I don't, my brain is a hot mess in need of major assistance.

humble coral
#

the problem is 4.2 had a lot of issues compiling shaders.... while 3.6 is done very fast... downside, 4.2 is more 'realistic' with EEVEE engine today... while 3.6 still keeping 'cartoonish'

craggy wind
#

I see. I haven't kept up with LTS timing for Blender

#

Thank you for the details.

humble coral
#

no problem... anyway to point something more... both versions of Blender supports the glTF 2.0 Format in mostly same way...

craggy wind
#

I would like to know if it's safe to recommend 4.2 for anyone assisting us with LoD projects.

humble coral
#

if keep in touch to Blender community for little issues would be 108 % fine...

#

btw Blender 4.2 tells when an update is ready... something that in earlier versions of Blender was not available

craggy wind
#

A note that 3.6 support stops in June, as well.

humble coral
#

exactly

craggy wind
#

Speaking of which, I better make a calendar reminder for next wiki LTS, even though it's far away.

#

I also solved a problem I was having with model appearance, will post in the tool's thread later.

humble coral
#

awesome... also i have to look more into glTF 2.0 specification... for blender 4.2.x since i know they will implement an update that i was waiting for long hehehe

humble coral
empty adder
#

So I had a thought about your boss move list.

#

In cases of whether an attack is immediate and ignores turn order, or is just prioritized on the boss' next turn, just specify that in the description field.

#

Also, here is a draft of the Seles Commander's right-hand infobox, stats, and abilties that I made for your consideration.

Screenshot_2025-03-24_120213.png
#

"Formation" would mean any additional units the player should be aware of. In the case of the Commander, he "has minions" because he starts with them. For Virage, it "Has multiple parts." For Drake, he "Summons minions." For Kongol, he is "Solo."

craggy wind
empty adder
#

Yes it is.

craggy wind
#

I'm not sure why you're telling me to do it then. xD

empty adder
#

I wasn't "telling you to do". It was just a note for clarification.

craggy wind
#

Okay.

empty adder
#

So like Lloyd's Lavitz Special, for instance, he doesn't respond to a Dragoon instantly. He just prioritizes instant KOing on his next turn.

#

If it's even still on the field on his next turn.

craggy wind
#

Hahaha Lavitz Special. Ouch.

#

There are also openers and closers, in his case.

#

You know what, Lloyd is a good candidate for my list of 3 examples.

#

I like the way you got that Conditions note at the top; very cool.