Thieving Rebalance: Feedback Thread

[civic spire]

After content release sure, but a couple of week ago, prior to nerf and before rumors of nerf, not true.

[sick light]

You're right. It could have been done differently, but they apparently listened so now we will see how the new update plays. I think it'll be much better. Side note. I'd be in favor of removing or at least nerfing tetracompases from pickpocketing too. But just my opinion

[royal rover]

I am concerned with the way some of the information was presented in the blog.

Going through the feedback thread, four specific points came up repeatedly:
...

• Higher levels, gear, and buffs do not feel meaningfully rewarding
  This was because high level gears and buffs were changed (oblivios) and nerfed (crystal mask / light form).

Should we expect to see end-game adjustments like this again along the road to restoration, where rewards that require hundreds of hours of time are fundamentally modified? It makes me question whether or not I should continue to invest time into this game. I would have hoped that the tenants would have included clearer communication.

[unkempt cedar]

I have to say, the details of the latest post significantly alleviate pretty much all of my concerns with the pickpocketing changes. I can get behind basically everything I saw listed

I do hope they address the changes to things like oblivious, but honestly, if oblivious simply makes your suspicion meter go up even slower then that will be enough for me personally

[civic spire]

Agreed, the post did little about making higher end stuff better other than extend afk-ability, which we already had prior to the "update".

It's still a nerf.

Even if new players never knew what it was like to afk for 15 minutes straight...

Would they go after the crazy req to get something like crystal mask just to afk a little bit longer??

Probably not.

The proposed changes are not enough in my opinion.

[unkempt cedar]

I'll give the fact that how afk and op high end pickpocketing was prior to the update needed looking at, but if it means that the pickpocketing is more cohesive and better for early game, these newly proposed changes an acceptable compromise to me and also makes the upgrades feel more rewarding again

[sick light]

What if they lowered the reqs for the mask and other upgrades?

[civic spire]

You can still have a cohesive early game with unlimited pickpocket late game, they choose not to allow it.

The funny thing is they have a graph that shows that you can afk for 8 minutes which is not accurate...

Crystal mask makes the maximum afk of anything to 5 minutes.

This may even be reduced with light form upkeep, in the way of prayer points. Do I need to carry 5 prayer pots, holy wrench to be in a spot for an hour and have to bank to get more prayer pots?

It's not really a solution for the end-game.

[sick light]

Are the outfit reqs being lowered from 54k fragments? I may be totally making that up but I thought I read that in one of the blogs

[glass harbor]

fairly sure that graph is with the changes, which don't seem to be implemented yet?

[sick light]

It's coming later in the week

[civic spire]

Crystal Mask duration is 5 minutes. Means you can only afk maximum 5 minutes

[unkempt cedar]

I guess it depends on how the play the change to be fair, it might be changed so that CASTING crytal mask simply increases your timer on the target by a percentage

[hybrid reef]

In the post they talking a lot about nerfing xp/gp which is good for a little more afk. Also because gp was to high for so long afk. But then there is somewhere stated only once iirc, items being nerfed. Exp/gp is going 70% lower. I mainly did the pickpocketing for rewards as an ironman. If they nerf the loot as in items as well with 70% that would mean pickpocketing is not even viable anymore for me. You got items before update but it also wasnt huge? For example a lil arch mats, its not like you got 1000's per hour or so.
The tetra pieces are a problem.

Am i wrong about this?

[viscid aspen]

its 30% nerf

[royal rover]

All tenants that the blog mentioned that will be used moving forwards can be applied, while still devaluing the time invested by players for rewards. My concern and worry is that changes are made down the line in good faith by Jagex that fundamentally changes an unlock that I went out of my way to obtain has a reward that I no longer desire, and feel as though that time spent has been wasted. I get that it might be a stretch, but since the game is being overhauled, its not impossible.

The changes that are proposed does restore value to crystal mask, which I appreciate. It did not cover the miss, which was miscommunicating that an invention perk was going to be modified. It's clear that speed over precision is being used over these updates, and it is not appreciated

[sick light]

All buffs will increase the afk time window

[hybrid reef]

Oh you are right i misread that so much. Ty for elaborating.
That might be not to bad we have to see.

[runic flame]

You don't need crystal mask for everything; only for 1 or 2 of the highest level to pickpocket from or to replace a buff that you don't have.

[civic spire]

Are they changing crystal mask?

Because it has a 5 minute duration, once it drops the effect disappears. Effectively meaning you have to recast (return to keyboard) every 5 minutes

[glass harbor]

also regarding the chart, I do find it a bit odd they have ardy cape below crystal mask, since that buff is always applied if you've done the diaries, and I'm fairly sure ardy hard is easier to do than the light within?

[sick light]

Based on the chart. Crystal mask adds nearly 2 minutes to afk time at menaphos gaurds before getting caught

[viscid aspen]

that whole chart feels weird, it includes Legendary Five-finger Discount which probably not that many people have but leave out vitur/magpie or camouflage outfit which are far easier to obtain

[sick light]

But it says camo, ring and magpie further increase afk time

[civic spire]

Right, but they didn't mention changing it...

So it doesn't matter if you have 8 minutes of afk if you have to recast it every 5 minute.

[viscid aspen]

Yes, but why show how much FFD adds instead of vitur or magpie?

[sick light]

Oh ok yea I see what you're saying

But refreshing does reset the timer

[royal rover]

I think it would have been cooler if they had given us a link to a calculator that allows us to play with the proposed changes, but understand that might be a lot to ask for in such short notice. For a quick chart that needed to provide a variety of expectations, it does its job

[civic spire]

Like before, some targets I could pp 15 minutes without having to use mask / lightform.

This new model requires mask / light which effectively makes max afk 5 minutes due to recast

= 3x worse than before.

3x nerf on afk isn't 70%
It's 33%

[viscid aspen]

^ this, what's the point of it being 9min if mask is 5min

Do the other buffs make it like it was prior monday, that you can do it without mask/form but only for 9min?

[unkempt cedar]

That's ONLY if they don't change how crystal masks timer works to compensate, which is kind of implied with the proposal to be fair

[civic spire]

Why would the imply vs just telling us..?

[unkempt cedar]

Because the whole post is an ongoing proposal I guess? I'm not a dev so I couldn't say, and don't get me wrong I've been incredibly upset with the changes and how this whole thing was handled. But they are clearly looking into it, so we can't really make a proper opinion until it's in our hands so to speak

[sick light]

I don't think you'll get caught as soon as the mask buff ends? So could potentially keep going for a couple minutes longer. At least that's my understanding

[civic spire]

Maybe.

But let's say your 5 minutes in on your 6 minute timer..

A mask / form was 3 of those minutes, you're over and you're busted...

[hybrid reef]

I kinda agree with that. They talk about transparancy, but there is still a lot of 'guessing' why not say exactly what the changes are for everything. Or atleast the really big important things that 'might" change like mask. The might is the problem in the sentence.

[unkempt cedar]

I would assume that either having the mask active on the act of initiating a pickpocketing, or casting it while already pickpocketing, would likely increase said targets time, so the mask timer ending wouldn't simply negate that bonus, similar to how the buff from memories of guthix increases the timer by 30 second for each person who hops on a wisp?

We won't really know how it works until they make it clear or release it.

[civic spire]

Ideally, but it makes it confusing for new players.

Would be hard to code..

Just make mask timer 15 minutes and problem is solved

[unkempt cedar]

Yea but you'd probably want to Increase its rune cost to compensate for that as well

[civic spire]

Sure

[viscid aspen]

But then they would nerf xp/loot even more

[unkempt cedar]

3x timer = 3x runes? Or maybe casting it multiple times let's you increase its timer

We already have things that increase timers anyway, so I'm sure they could bootstrap those systems to that spell

[wary violet]

: ( they shouldve just changed it without changing anything about it and keeping it all the same!

[civic spire]

I mean,...

If I have to now use mask on targets that I never had to use it on before...

Do we really need to ramp up runes to 3x?

Maybe.

[wary violet]

I'd never say no to a new rune sink, runes should be worth more

[unkempt cedar]

I definitely agree with that, especially if we are getting rid of vis wax soon

[civic spire]

I do agree there.

But there's too many runed due to drop table.

That's a whole nother issue...

[unkempt cedar]

Another discussion for another post, sure, but yea I mean, considering the cost of mask now, it's not exactly a problem to increase its cost to compensate for an increased timer

Or simply let us cast it multiple times to overcharge it or something

[civic spire]

Could be an issue if you reduce gold by 30% and xp 30% ( need to train 30% longer)

[rigid fog]

Just finished the thieving post that went up today, on the last few notes from the post id like to mention theres a line blurring between heists (thieving) and agility courses. Which i think is fine and thematic even but lacks that “distinct skill identities” mentioned. Other than that i see no issues with their proposed adjustments.

[hybrid reef]

I am still of opinion that the lower targets should be 100% afkable even 15mins. Because of al the unlocks and especially levels (time you have spend to get to 120) i know that a lot of people have gotten 120 for free.

But how i look at, its kind of the same saying okay you 99 str but on lower level targets you hit lower so you need to input multiple actions to kill the mob instead of oneshotting

Maybe not the best comparison, but you get the point right?

[wary violet]

I mean they increased the afk time, isn't that what yall wanted? I think the changes are fair, and tbh I wouldve nerfed the xp more

[unkempt cedar]

Eh, let be real, the xp and gp form pickpocketing was kinda nuts for how simple it is. I could make 100m just casually afking it while working with next to no input, I'm not opposed to a little nerf to keep it both fair and in line with an afk method

[civic spire]

You've missed the convo...

Afk times are capped to 5 minutes because you have to recast mask every 5 minutes

[wary violet]

"The following times are the base AFK time before an NPC starts becoming suspicious. Players will continue to pickpocketing beyond this time until they get caught." in reguards to the times I posted..

[runic flame]

Agree that Crystal mask should just be buffed to 10 min for double rune cost.

[civic spire]

Those times only exist if mask is applied, which needs to be cast every 5 minute

[wary violet]

I think thats fair tbh

[sick light]

I don't think so the way I read it. Unless I'm missing something

[wary violet]

Not gonna please everyone, espically if you were already 'spoiled' by 1,300,000+ xp hourly with only 4 clicks

[civic spire]

The y axis is +, This is accumulation effect, which mask came before

[sick light]

"Before looking at the example below, it's worth calling out that these baseline AFK times reflect the experience at or around the point at which a target is unlocked. As you over-level a target, your guaranteed AFK window increases, and buffs then extend that further on top"

[unkempt cedar]

Honestly, a 30% nerf is still roughly 1m an hour, which is still kinda insane for an afk method

[wary violet]

100%

[hybrid reef]

I dont think anyone is applying that the exp was justified.

[sick light]

This is an important note. So if you're way over target level, your afk time will be much longer by default, before buffs applied

[unkempt cedar]

Yea, and it appears that the change will affect ALL npcs across the board now, not JUST the new ones

[civic spire]

Were talking about end game efgort effecting afkability

[sick light]

I think we will just have to see how it plays. But it feels better than the current version. But playing it will tell everything

[royal rover]

Runescape is more than just numbers, and xp. It's also about the story. This is a silly suggestion, but is feedback none the less.

There is an in-game interaction with the Thieves Guild master, where having a high enough thieving level makes the him unable to see how fast you pickpocketed. This suggests that there exists a skill gap where a thief's pickpocketing speed is undetectable. I think it would be lore accurate to keep this skill gap in the game. For example, we could hypothesize that the guild master's level is 1, and so if you have 59 levels above the target, you can afk for 15 minutes without being detected, even if you don't have any additional bonuses

[hybrid reef]

Correct. I wish they nerfed exp to the ground items maybe a lil but not to the ground but kept the afking at max with every unlock. Especially the lower targets. That you need to apply mask/light form to afk 5mins on the higher once is fair for me.

[civic spire]

The first buff they include in the chart is Mask

All the buffs are on top of mask and in addition to mask.

So the 7+ minute timers are not real if you have to recast mask every 5 minute.

That's the main point

[unkempt cedar]

I wont lie, the idea of level now actually having an impact on things like the dwarf traders does feel better then it ONLY impacting the npcs introduced in november, and this change will hopefully also fix the issues with the heists from what i understand.
I also understand where needle is coming from though, if they dont alter how crystal mask works either application or timer wise, the whole change would be pointless.

[civic spire]

For example.

Elf at 120 thieving.
4:37 (no buffs)
5 minutes with mask (since recast is 5 minutes)

What incentive do I have to grind and get crystal mask?

[hybrid reef]

@civic spire is correct mask/light form give you the most afk time according to the chart. So basically re-applying mask is needed ever 5 mins and thus afk is not 5 mins+ like the chart says.

UNLESS they are making changes to mask timer which they didnt say

[wary violet]

It is, because you dont get instantly caught as soon as CM stops.... did you read it

[unkempt cedar]

As a positive side note, as someone who likes to collect the skilling outfits, i will say i am incredibly happy they buffed the drop rate of the ibis pieces
The previous drop rate was down right criminally insane

[wary violet]

and also Children of Mah

[hybrid reef]

Amen to that

[wary violet]

Some of yall really acting like you gotta chop off your left arm to get the quest done... like if you're going for 120 in any skill i'd hope you'd at least have the bigger quests done

[civic spire]

If the buff of CM falls off it puts me into a huge time deficit which would likely lead to me being caught.

And if you don't get caught.. then it defeats their purpose of making it predictable. You're in chaos mode trying to figure out if mask falling off means you need to renew, wait and look at the screen or recast and hope for the best. It doesnt solve any issues.

Easy fix. CM duration is increased to 15m
Maybe you add rune cost

[wary violet]

The point is, if you wanna afk more you click CM again... again, 3 clicks in 15 mins is not a lot to ask for, and is still afk

[hybrid reef]

But i do think the post somewhere says that recasting mask restarts this base afk timer.

[civic spire]

Ok, but max afk time is 5 minutes then right?

[sinful schooner]

There's a new thread for discussing todays changes, btw #1473386767812919557

[hybrid reef]

Predictable afk time yes

[tawdry nexus]

I hope changes to materials aren’t drastic. I wouldn’t mind if they took only 70% of gp and left materials as they are or 70% of gp but left rarer materials as they are and reduced common materials

[hybrid reef]

Correct, i said it before. I'd rather get stupid low exp/h, but still have the same items (not gp) drops. As when afk its mostly to upkeep stuff or unlock other stuff at a slower pace.

[dreamy plaza]

items is gp for everyone who's not an iron though

[vague coral]

im happy they heard us! im also glad they took everything into consideration, still feel some kinda way about the cmask being 5mins when apparenlty were still going to need it so all the new stuff is basically afk till u reup mask.. so it looks good on paper but is it really?? also the aura.. thought they were getting rid of them.. and they are only like 2hrs max anyway. so again not helpful... why give us predictions with something that is going away and why make sticky fingers hurt us. again. leaves more questions unanswered.

[dreamy plaza]

many aura functionalities are staying even if the aura is going, and five finger discount is explicitly one of the ones who's effect is staying as an unlock somewhere

[viscid aspen]

Breezy on reddit:

The blog coming soon will detail the ideas for where Aura effects will go, but in short we're looking at moving FFD to a Thieves guild unlock, the exact % has yet to be finalised but the proposed value will be in the blog.

[vague coral]

thank u both

[runic flame]

Prior JMod responses seem to indicate most skilling auras will become unlockable passives.

[lilac fern]

Even membership in and of itself is already pay-to-win; most useful items such as potions and scrimshaws are members-only.

[foggy mulch]

No comments like that please (in regard to the message I deleted). Let’s keep it to feedback about the thieving rebalancing

[rigid fog]

What about 12 min, first actual skilling aspect?

[vague coral]

that deff helps me, thank u!

[upper token]

did they delete this skill yet its a slap in the face i get 120 200m and I cant rob even a level 2 man. whats next stunned while i fish ?

[dreamy plaza]

....Blubbers exist...

[upper token]

dont give them any ideas well be back to classic 1 knife 1 log shit