Early Game Thieving Rebalance | Gamejam

[steady patrol]

Hey all!

For this gamejam, I wanted to take a look at early game Thieving and what improvements we could make to it.

When we added Group Ironman last year, it allowed us to see many players experiencing the early game together and Thieving was one of those areas that stood out as needing improvement.

The early game lacks a good natural curve; some of the best content involves awkward gameplay, such as world hopping, and there's just not a good variety in what you can do. This rebalance aims to address some of those early game problems to offer more variety and introduce some better rates across the skill which in turn hopefully makes for a better experience for new players in the future.

You can read my design pitch here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vQkMQRVMqANov1xvA_MBCyhLARGXUDzoK7djNiLCMKXLkRF3KLuFauzgxSfuXWU5bw2ibZeX6IZlf1B/pub

Please give us any feedback you have on any of the details mentioned, and also feel free to mention any further improvements you'd love to see made to early game Thieving.

Thanks - Mod Daze

[steep vigil]

Thank you for addressing this issue @steady patrol !

I definitely do think the Doors need to be nerfed or at least have it so its not a world hopping mechanic

[cedar glen]

It's nice to see this being addressed finally. since it was already the exact same stuff during fsw

[steep vigil]

O wow the drop tables for the thieving loot tables is a big task

[steady patrol]

Yeah that's why I haven't explored it for now - I think it's better to get the XP rates improved now and we can come back around for drop tables later

[tidal moon]

Could the hidden level 78 thieving requirement to obtain Black Ibis be changed, allowing it to be obtained starting at level 21?

Its listed as 21 in the ingame skill interface, and this would make Pyramid Plunder more attractive to do early on for a chance at the pieces.

Black Ibis also has potentially the rarest rate of any skilling outfit, so that might be worth addressing too.

[steep vigil]

Honestly thieving loot table has so much potential since people like to play a lot of restricted accounts so having it modernized will be fun

I didnt even know the ham female/male had different exp rates

[steady patrol]

Yeah - interesingly there are HAM female/male/guards which have level reqs of 15/20/23 I believe. Mad!

[tidal moon]

I like the idea of changing the thieves guild door/chests to be more like safecracking

[steady patrol]

Interesting! Will make a note to explore!

[steep vigil]

Ive been sitting and farming them for easy clue scrolls atm since im aiming for 100k+ atm

since clue cap was removed

I think the idea of the door mechanics like safe cracking would be good too.

Learning how to open high level doors for thieving as the concept.

[hard finch]

I'm a fan. no real comments other than that

[west flicker]

Would you also be able to look into making the action of pickpocketing smoother, by allowing us to left-click certain NPCs to pickpocket them?
While certain attackable NPCs already allow this by simply changing your left-click target settings, talkable NPCs (like HAM Members) don't support this QoL atm

[steep vigil]

Cruq eqals are pretty afk from the early game if I remember correctly?

I think theyre sort of op and it was the meta for thieving from what I could remember

[tidal moon]

If doors/chests at thieving guild are being changed to be more safecracking esque. Is that something you'd consider (with loot possibly loot improvements too) to other old thieving chests?

Like the old blood rune chest.

[steep vigil]

At the end it says loot tables would be next

but Im pretty happy with the document

[steady patrol]

I'd have to check more - maybe others can confirm. Are you thinking I'm potentially buffing them too far then?

[cosmic acorn]

where were you when door was kill

[steep vigil]

Cant really find anything that I can disagree with at all

[tidal moon]

I was at home

"door is kil"

yes

[cosmic acorn]

hahahaha

[steady patrol]

Honestly never even looked at them because I haven't even considered them as a player for years and years but can take a look

[cosmic acorn]

actually so exciting doors is killed off that stuff is not fun 😭

[tidal moon]

Me either until you mentioned door+chest in Thieves Guild possibly being like safecracking and I realised that could just be general "break in and get to the chest" function.

[steep vigil]

Loot tables should be looked as a whole for specific content. Chests should be done in one go since there are so many imo

[tidal moon]

As right now those chests are not worth going for

[steep vigil]

and the mechanics are also different too for each category

[steady patrol]

Hm... some NPCs could definately do. I think my ideal would be we don't hide "Talk to" ops unless neccessary so maybe with HAM guards as an example we maintain some talkable characters and turn others into (mostly) purely pickpocket targets. How does that sound?

[cosmic acorn]

best chest in the game has 1,000 coins, raw shark, adamantite stone spirit, uncut sapphire and its a 6 min respawn time at 72

[west flicker]

that sounds like a good middle-ground 😄

[steep vigil]

But I believe Crux are one of the meta methods. Let me see if I can find it but most thieving guides just recommend it until you unlock menaphos citizens for thieveing if I remember correctly

[steady patrol]

Don't tell the PvMers

[cosmic acorn]

thats a lotta supplies XD

[oblique flame]

Theiving early game. Yep it sucks. Happy to see how you will improve it.

[void crescent]

Well, thieves guild doors are meta for 45 levels, I’d recommend a bit of focus there :p (think they were discussed a bit above, just popping in)

[steep vigil]

Ya Protoxx's vid on 1-99/120 thieving has all the big items which are the fast way to level. But it sounds like crux get really good once your at much higher levels since early levels for it seem rough.

[tidal moon]

There is the general rule that thieving options are the right click option. Right now thats something you learn early on and it remains consistent for most of the game.

I do worry that rolling out so its more random means that players no longer learn that lesson and so don't start thinking about it, during quests or meeting new npcs without right click.

[oblique flame]

During GIM. I used my Aura and AFK pickpocketing. having to use a Aura sucked.

[cosmic acorn]

its probably out of the scope of this but is there any consideration regarding the safecracking stuff/alternative methods?

as its like overwhelmingly "the method" to do from 62 onwards

[west flicker]

@ Mod Daze, bit of a side tangent - is there any way to make lockpicks easier to obtain please? 😇
Right now it's a pain to obtain the many lockpicks you may need for Desert Treasure
(an easy method would be to increase shop stock in the rogue's den, for example)

[steady patrol]

In an ideal world, yes - there's so much room in Thieving to add to it (see the NPCs added with Garden of Kharid) but I think safecracking is so good it's hard to beat it out as the meta so realistically would be giving viable other spaces e.g. this NPC is really good for obtaining items X and Y

[tidal moon]

Safecracking did come out during a time where new skilling updates just radically increased xp rates without much reason

[cosmic acorn]

yeah that makes sense, at 300-950k xp pr hour its deffo gonna be hard to beat, is "lowering failure chance" something that could be relevant for straight thieving or is it mostly straight xp bonuses that are looked at?

[tidal moon]

I remember we went from "pyramid plunder is reasonable rate" to "you're a fool if you do it instead of safecracking"

[oblique flame]

One thing I would like to you consider is the f2p game.

Their is lots of theving content in f2p world, to the 90s.

So I think it would be beneficial to the members early game theif, is having Theiving as a f2p skill.

[steady patrol]

In what way would you like it looked at?

[cosmic acorn]

well, the way i see it is that theres a lot of failure in thieving early unless you specifically have the five finger discount and crystal mask, exoskeleton and all that, so maybe just lowering the failure rate like "lvl 15 unlock ham" and a separate "level 50 cant fail ham members anymore" like in cooking?

the consistency lends itself to higher xp rates

it doesnt have to eliminate all failure rates in the game, but just mostly having reachable "antifailure" goals helps early game progression a bunch

[west flicker]

I'd also be happy if "HAM members can throw you out of their cave" is no longer a thing 🙏
But I get that might be harder to do if it's there for balancing reasons

[cosmic acorn]

sure but thats a whole other thing haha

[west flicker]

yeah but it would in turn lead to higher xp rates (with the biggest effect at lower levels) as you'd spend less time in the fade-to-black & running back to them

[cosmic acorn]

yeah and it also makes for a smoother progression path with less reliance on third party items/auras/spells

[oblique flame]

Getting the HAM robes for Zanik is not very fun. So, I would like that HAM kicking you out be removed.
But you would lose a part of the quest.

[cosmic acorn]

well this would help the "getting ham robes"

if you fail less earlier

[west flicker]

Also, you have a SIGNIFICANTLY higher chance to steal ham robes if you wait until after starting the quest

(the point at which the buff is applied is when Zanik appears in the basement)

[cosmic acorn]

hopefully aswell the points at which failure stops will be in the guide aswell so players know what point they have reached "mastery" on certain thieving mobs

[oblique flame]

On GIM I went and got the jewellery that lowers my fail pick chance. So I could deal with HAM easier.

[cosmic acorn]

doesnt lower your failrate just has a chance to tank it for you

so if base failrate is high you will run through those charges

[ashen jungle]

Early game pickpocket rates need to fixed, so you don't caught so frequently (a lvl 1 pickpocket target shouldn't be catching someone with 90+ thieving as I've experienced numerous times doing my jot runs)

[oblique flame]

Which, it better as you have more chances to pickpocket per hour

[steady patrol]

I think this is one of those things that I'd want to look at more in playtesting - I noticed in my runs for example that Warriors were particularly brutal to pickpocket at the initial level. I'd happily make that kinder but would then bring the XP down so it matches closer to my desired XP/hrs listed. There's an interesting side effect to that as well, which it means levelling then has less benefit in the long-run but with the amount of new content unlocked and safecracking I think that's a minor concern at best

[oblique flame]

The Aura shouldn't be required to train theif

[cosmic acorn]

yeah its true your levels will have less "overall impact" across the board, but it will have much higher "specific impact" with real milestones to go after

also i definitely would not want this to be overpowered if the rates have to be lowered thats fine, this lends to the idea of thieving itself being more about getting the materials/loot rather than pure xp

[steady patrol]

Yeah I'd be happy with that - makes it similar to Cooking where you no longer burn food. You're so good at Thieving this NPC will never see you coming now?

[cosmic acorn]

yes exactly this!

you have mastered thieving on these mobs and now they dont detect you

i would recommend a 20-30 level range for when you stop failing

since it makes it relevant for those mobs

[oblique flame]

Lost Her Marbles is a quest involving lots of pickpocketing, include HAM members.

[cosmic acorn]

i could mock up a list maybe but it will take me a bit of time haha

[oblique flame]

I think the Gloves of silence should be useful when pickpocketing

[ashen jungle]

can be slightly higher for true 0% failure rate imo, 20-30 can be like sub 1% so every npc isn't a 15 min afk npc and you get higher xp for paying attention if you get caught

[cosmic acorn]

lategame thieving can still have higher catch-rate so that you never "stop failing" unless you use those extra pieces, but there shouldnt be much reason to need level 90 gear for level 15 mobs

(slight hyperbole but you understand my argument :3)

[oblique flame]

Late game Theiving is quite fun, I don't think it needs a buff.

[west flicker]

Question for everyone else: how does everyone feel about Shifting Tombs being the meta for camouflage fragments?
(I'm not intending for it to be or not be changed, just curious)

[steep vigil]

I sort of do like the 3 mechanic kick out for HAM at the early game. Its so unique and it makes you want to get a higher thieving level to not have that happen.

[steady patrol]

Yeah I guess that is something to be aware of - cooking you have an inventory of food whereas pickpocketing you could do forever in the right scenario. So yes, maybe there's a balancing point there of not everything can be 100% success rate

[oblique flame]

It's fine. As Late Game Theiving is fun and you didn't need the outfit.

Maybe increase the rates.

[steep vigil]

Ya Im sitting at the 15min timer for ham members with the 100% rate. Its satisfying but I feel like its also a reward from all my progression for at least the low level content.

[tawny crypt]

is proposed rate factoring in sticky fingers?

[oblique flame]

I do like it for the story reasons it builds the world

[ashen jungle]

I'm fine with low lvl content being 100% rate at 99, it isn't an issue, just not every npc under 70 thieving should be 15 min afk 😛

[steep vigil]

^

[oblique flame]

I don't want to see that part of it go away.

[cosmic acorn]

35 levels over content surely should be "enough" to hit the high catchrate

that means ardy knights wont be 100% until like level 90

[steady patrol]

We had similar thought with the HAM hideout when I discussed with other mods - it's one of those nice quirks in how RS works as a game. I do think we should make it clearer it's an Agility level roll whether you get spotted or not

[cosmic acorn]

[west flicker]

hold on what

[cosmic acorn]

chat is this true

[west flicker]

I never heard this

[oblique flame]

I think 110 Theif (Which is on the roadmap) should allow 100% on all current pickpocket NPCs.

[steady patrol]

Oh haha 😄

[ashen jungle]

same 😮

[steady patrol]

Welcome to the new world

[steep vigil]

I think ironically Thieving is probably one of the healthiest skills for passive/active gameplay. I think only the early game numbers need tweaks and then the reward tables. Maybe new thieving activities that do fun mechanic content that is like BGH for thieving. I had an idea that it would be thieving from a dragon's lair and was going to make a whole concept art for it.

[ashen jungle]

TIL

[cosmic acorn]

hahaha

[tawny crypt]

maybe barring prif tho

also

[cosmic acorn]

i think a way to look at it too is thieving can be the more "laidback" method of training since even if you give 0% catchrate safecracking will still be twice as good xp per hour

[warm holly]

Weird suggestion, add lure as a right click option to all pickpocketable npcs

To pull em to a tile

[tawny crypt]

how will higher tier pickpockets be goof money

[cosmic acorn]

so normal thieving can be the "afk" training

and i think thats ok

[ashen jungle]

you could in theory add in an catch this guy mechanic roll chance if they've been continuously thieving for x minutes even if you they have 0% chance to fail

[tawny crypt]

through coin pouches or valuable drops?

[cosmic acorn]

yeah like with the elves

5 minutes you get "caught"

[oblique flame]

It's afk with 0 setup

[tidal moon]

Honestly the "elf" method could work for some npcs

Enough regions with guards for example

[ashen jungle]

Doesn't have to lock you out of pickpocketing again, its just to reward people for paying attention to the game

And not turn it into a 15 min click game

[cosmic acorn]

inb4 "attention bar" like stamina in mining, you get lower thieving chance the lower your bar goes

[vale pagoda]

chiming in on this, the way black ibis is obtained could be changed a bit, currently its quite a rare set and a pain to grind for, IMO the way its obtained should be changed, either being made a bit more common or being allowed to exchange treasures for like a chance for a piece of the set from the mummy

[oblique flame]

Would having a jingle when pickpocketing like Mining and safecracking be a good idea?

[cosmic acorn]

"time till detected bar" if it reaches 0 without reclicking you are caught, if you hold the bar near the top by clicking you have higher chance of success and a chance of double loot

:3

[crimson sigil]

oh this will be fun

Let's re-do thieving mechanics because the current design sort of sucks.

[tawny crypt]

some method similar to osrs varly theiving, where some npcs get distracted, giving a 100% rate for a little while could work

[steep vigil]

My 110 thieving dragon lair theiving concept sketched out. I was thinking the focus would be pathing where you disable various traps, and have npcs stationed and other unique mechanics while a dragon is sleeping and then rob some big chests behind the dragon.

[cosmic acorn]

[oblique flame]

That sounds good. I like it

[tawny crypt]

more content like the yanille agility dungeon maybe?

[cosmic acorn]

i mean i do think having a stamina bar or "stealth" bar, would add a lot of reason to be active while still retaining the afk-ness of thieving, the bars amount of "health" could increase with your thieving level

[tawny crypt]

just large sprawling dungeons that uses various skills (including theiving) to progress in

[cosmic acorn]

rewarding you for training the skill

all of this though is super beyond the scope of the gamejam, sorry!

[oblique flame]

Like it

[dusk zephyr]

Maybe I'm not understanding this correctly, but it feels odd that the purposed xp seems to be off scaled. Training at Cruq Eqal Druids, or Master Farmers for an hour at the recommended level just jumps you up by 10 levels in your current purposal.

Most of this as designed is made to push you so far out of the lower level brackets at such an accelerated rate, that you don't even get a full 8 hours of anything below level 50 when training the skills.

[lethal shuttle]

Started a GIM like a month ago so speaking from experience.
It was basically do some early level quests to bump to 30ish, an hour of Gullible Tourist, and then at 46 menaphite marketeers with 5finger discount aura (you have all auras on GIM) was easily 50k thieving xp/h without getting caught. Just an hour of pure afk every 3 hours.
Would argue this isn't needed at all lol but I guess it's good to have some balancing improvements 😛
Your live xp/h rates seem way off though?

[steady patrol]

I'm torn on things like a bar - I worry we end up with more and more skilling going this way and ultimately Thieving should just work. I'd always also prefer to reward attention vs punish lack of attention if that makes sense?

[cosmic acorn]

the bar would also make it easy to design bonus % catchrate as it could just add to the energy

[cosmic acorn]

yeah of course, i think a bar might not be the ideal thing, but its just one of those "if it aint broke dont fix it" type of things, it works well in mining since it does reward you for playing actively

[steady patrol]

May not be completely accurate as they were shorter tests than I'd like but if any stand out as way off let me know. These were all with the unlock level and no additional buffs to help out

[cosmic acorn]

the main incentive of the bar could be higher catchrate the more energy and a chance of bonus loot

[oblique flame]

Mining you can afk. You can't this way.

[sweet solstice]

Wooo Mod Daze Jam

[cosmic acorn]

yeah once again im sorry if that was super out of scope

i just find it to be an interesting way to engage with normal thieving

[oblique flame]

Early Gane Theif is needed, I am very happy about this.

Wooo indeed

[cosmic acorn]

i do still believe the catchrate "cooking" resemblance changes i was referring to earlier are very healthy for the early game thief

[tawny crypt]

i think pickpocketing the same target should increase fail rate with a message like "The Ardougne Knight notices money missing from their pouch and grows weary of their surrondings."

[tidal moon]

incredibly tangentially thieving related but GIM was mentioned as part of the motivation so

Any chance of irons/GIM being able to play heist at all?

[cosmic acorn]

put the bar over the target showing how much "loot" they have left

once it reaches 0 you gotta find a new target

[tawny crypt]

nah bar is predictable

[lethal shuttle]

I can't comment on other methods, but at 46 thieving with no failure rate (aura) doing the North Eastern Menaphite marketeer that doesn't move around as much as the others the xp is 100% sure 58k/h

[cosmic acorn]

yeah bar is silly but it works so well 😭

[tidal moon]

Not even talking about the rewards just the ability to play the content

[steady patrol]

"This person literally has nothing left to live on. Are you seriously this cruel? At least let them have enough to buy a loaf of bread to eat tonight."

[oblique flame]

That not a bad idea.
Varrock has a sign ingame which tells you the global about of Theiving going on.

[wary bear]

I think the most important thing to balance is what xp/hr each activity would bring

[cosmic acorn]

XD

"you feel bad for the ardy knight and put 50 coins back in their pocket"

[oblique flame]

The Aura shouldn't be needed to train

[tawny crypt]

ye but its less mining stamina and more of a negative rockertunity

[west flicker]

+1

[cosmic acorn]

+2

[lethal shuttle]

The argument was GIM, you unlock all auras on GIM so this is the current way of going lol. You can also wait until lvl 94 and gloves of silence for 0 catch rate :p

[cosmic acorn]

you should never "need" the aura just to play the early game

[steady patrol]

Cheers. Wasn't aware there was one that didn't move so probably lost time there....

[tidal moon]

+3

[crimson sigil]

I haven't fully read the google doc yet, (going to in a sec), but I have an annoyance with the existing pickpocket Thieving mechanic because the methodology of training doesn't line up to what it actually does.

The expectation is you focus on higher level targets as you level up, but the problem is your chance of getting caught goes down the higher level you are compared to the initial req. (summarizing). Less chances to get caught means more pickpocket attempts which could correlate to more xp/hr.

Unless the XP drop for higher level targets is balanced in such a way where you are highly encouraged to engage with higher targets over low level targets then the annoyance I have with the system will remain.

But there's also a 3rd factor: Due to all the thieving buffs/qol additions, players can fully afk pickpocket now. This means, it can generally be better to do slightly lower xp/hr methods. I find this very unhealthy design wise.

TL;DR: The current pickpocket mechanic sucks, let's find a redesign of how it functions.

[umbral glade]

Theiving guild always seemed in a weird spot to me because of hanky points being a limited turn in method. Maybe add unlimited turnin but have a max held points and balance the xp around that? Since you don't get loot, the "loot" should be xp imo

[flat leaf]

i think this is much more of an issue with auras than it is theiving in specific

[tidal moon]

Yeah I don't get the need for a daily cap on hanky points

[cosmic acorn]

lets not turn the chat into an aura discussion though

[tidal moon]

It seems like one of thoe daily things that can just be outright cut

[cosmic acorn]

i still think reaching "mastery" rates is really good for the early game progression

[crimson sigil]

Also fun fact, everyone loves the Crux Knight afk pickpocketing, and they are great, but a hidden pickpocketing gem is elves.

[steady dawn]

Honestly it’d be really great to just generally raise or remove the cap. Most other reward shops don’t have a particularly noticeable cap at least

[crimson sigil]

normal elves, not prif elves

[cosmic acorn]

in general, its less frustrating with less failrate, not higher xp pr thievery

[steady patrol]

Yeah, I've tried to balance numbers so moving up to your next target is always viable but without lots of playtesting it may be that some NPCs at lower levels remain better. I do think there's a balance (that we're already discussing) of potentially reducing catch rate & reducing XP to make the whole experience smoother; and potentially this has to come with some limitations on the afk-ness of pickpocketing right now. We've discussed bars etc but could be as simple as you get 10-20 attempts and then stop

[dusk zephyr]

Going through the Doc, I do think thieving guild doors being player specific is better for gameplay, we're not really structured else where to encourage world hopping except for pvm slayer mob competing, and this is a weird outlier. I don't think they need their current 5 min timer if you go that route.

[umbral glade]

A stun bar over the player when caught would go a long way

[undone river]

What was meant by "competitive" here? Is it referring to profitability? If so, I could be wrong, but I don’t really see how that would work. Since most thieving is so AFK, wouldn’t the majority of items added to those drop tables end up crashing in value?

[cosmic acorn]

could also just be a flat 5 min timer before catch, like priff elves

5 minutes is still tons of time

[crimson sigil]

Yeah the Priff elves funcitonality is a potential solution

[cosmic acorn]

and then the "target has noticed you, pick someone else" making you move around abit

this would make for a smoother curve, easier progression and more linear rewards

[oblique flame]

Problem is the players who want to afk theif. Going active should be something the player wants to do and not have to do

[thorn charm]

If higher xp rates for lower tier but lower catch rate sources are a concern, what about reducing the xp of actions if you exceed a level threshold for it as a way to encourage players to move on to something else? If their focus is experience

[steady patrol]

Not massively thought through but competitive compared to other methods in game that require a similar amount of effort - at the simplest example it could be gem stalls now have a chance to give some better gems like dragonstone at low rates. It's not going to break the game but better that just getting low tier gems the whole time

[cosmic acorn]

5 minutes is still plenty of time for afk

[undone river]

Ah I see, makes more sense now. Cheers for the clarification Daze

[oblique flame]

I do like the Gem stall idea.
Instead of Mining Gem Rocks, you could Steal Gems.
That helps Iron crafting, having a different method.

[cosmic acorn]

yeah that would be pretty nifty

[steady patrol]

Is that something people want from pickpocketing, or is that an opportunity for new content? It's probably out of scope for what I'm proposing right now but maybe something that can be explored when we get to 110 Thieving

[kindred obsidian]

I really like the sound of everything so far!

Daze while you're in the code, could you give us the real rates of getting caught? The wiki is lacking in that area, currently it's a lot of "look at the osrs wiki, if its a newer mob, gg"

[wise siren]

i think thieving is one of the skills that should have a clear active and afk options, stalls are active, should respawn faster, give noted products (could be an unlock) and good xp, while pickpocketing isnt as good at low levels, thief guild is full afk pickpocketing but slow xp and no loot, once you have hard ardy/gloves of silence pickpocketing becomes a viable training method, the failing rate should be much lower than now and have stop failing level similar to burning food, but the xp rates be reduced becausue it is the afk option, once 110 happens pickpocketing can have good money makers since it has high level unlocks (upcoming mainhand, crystal mask, light form, familiars, outfit, aura)

[kindred obsidian]

(also, getting caught by a man at lv 99 thieving is insanity)

[ashen jungle]

Can always make different npcs serve different niches since there is so many different ones

[umbral glade]

I know personally I've spent over 100 hours at marketeers because if I couldn't 100 percent afk it, I wouldn't have played at all

[steady patrol]

It's way too many numbers right now, but yeah for man as an example the low chance is 180 and high chance is 240 (so at 99 you have a 240/255) chance of succeeding so yeah without buffs there's still always a chance

[cosmic acorn]

a level 99 master thief failing on a level 1 target

[keen cradle]

would like to see pyramide plunder buffed for xp by like times4 at lv20 to times 2 by 90, maybe some added drops (few gp, early-mid game supplies logs/stone spirits/fish) from urns besides artefacts
high effort > high reward

[kindred obsidian]

Ahh okay, well if you ever have the chance to make a .txt dump, the wikians would be grateful! 😄

[steady patrol]

Remind me at some point and maybe I can find some time

[kindred obsidian]

I do think it felt really weird to full afk crux equal druids with aura

[warm holly]

https://tenor.com/view/persona-akira-kurusu-gif-20822103

[kindred obsidian]

😍

[wise siren]

can we have the osrs rogue outfit effect on the black ibis to make it worth going for?

[mossy flume]

More xp is great, but loot would be my main incentive to not simply skip the early game Thieving with quests personally. Especially if Thieving loot supported other skills like it should. Some loot to support early to mid game Crafting, as an example.

[thorn charm]

One of my gripes with thieving is the lack of a story or motivation behind it, which goes through the entire skill

We aren't stealing to hugely benefit ourselves monetarily, we aren't stealing valuable/rare jewellery or pieces of art to "own" (I really hoped Safecracking would lead to this but it didn't), we aren't stealing from the rich to help the poor
You get a bit of pocket change or some common fodder items until you reach the higher levels where the most sought after difficult to steal things are : Seeds and porters
Probably won't be seeing that on the next Oceans 11 film

[west flicker]

what's the effect?

[oblique flame]

It focuses more on the loot.
At Gem Rocks you train for the crafting xp, not the Mining xp.
But the Mining Xp is such a nice thing to have, that you don't feel like you are traning Mining.

Doing this with Theiving, make it a skill you do for the loot and not the xp.

[wise siren]

my bad, the effect is 20% chance to get double loot per piece, 5 pieces so basically double loot with full outfit

how is stealing! not good money maker

[kindred obsidian]

Yeah, like gem stalls take so long to respawn you might as well world hop... Or if what you need is the loot, just mine gems

[steady patrol]

Ah yeah I see - yeah that is definately something I want to explore with drop tables in the future. Just didn't have the time this game jam to get that far

[warm holly]

Perhaps having some thieving exclusive enchanted jewellery from specific npcs could be a fun addition

As a super rare chase loot

[steady patrol]

Wow gem stalls really have a 5 min respawn timer?

[dusk zephyr]

I'd also say it may be worth looking at some weird outliers for thieving stalls. The respawn timers haven't really been changed since RS2's release.

There really isn't a reason to keep these timers that are over 7 seconds. Some of them are strange about it, like the Silver stall in Ardouge is 30 second respawn, while Keldagrim is 7 seconds, but both provide the same xp. Resources like Gem stalls, would still lose out from things like minning, it's just an alternative. In runescape classic they had a 3 min timer, but it was nerfed with RS2 and gained a 5 min timer.

We also have the thieving chests that were designed in runescape classic that could be rebalanced to be modern. things like the 10gp chest, nature rune chest, blood rune chest, Ardy castle chest, etc...

[cosmic acorn]

gem stalls on a 5 minute timer is super rough for sure haha

[keen cradle]

thats why noone does thief with stalls after cake stalls 🙂

respawn times are dumb

[cosmic acorn]

didnt they change all stalls in osrs to make theem spawn faster`?

[mossy flume]

How about the stalls don't instantly deplete in one swoop?

[steady patrol]

I hadn't spotted that but yeah could absolutely tweak that - yeah the only other stall I spotted that was better later on was the lamp stall in Menaphos where you should get 1 lamp roughly per hour which you can put into any skill

[steady patrol]

Would be nice but more work - likely would want different models for the stall and then need to track it's progress. Not saying we can't do it, just changing a respawn timer is seconds in comparison. BUT would feel way more realistic

[wise siren]

this may not be in the scope of low level changes, but thieving should be able to get things to help other skills, like charms, or stone/wood spirits, urns? stuff like that from different npcs to make more things useful rather than like, menaphites and druid knights

[crimson sigil]

I did some research into pickpocketing ages ago but I can't find it 😦

[tidal moon]

I do think whatever pickpocketing changes happen, probably should extend to higher level targets which I dont think anyone pickpockets nowadays

paladins, gnomes, heroes

[cosmic acorn]

definitely feels like those things are too out of the way for a gamejam like this

[thorn charm]

For stalls, and some suitable NPCs, what about a "Warehouse Key" or " Portal Postal Services Order " for a rare/uncommon larger reward which requires a little bit of interaction?

Eg
Market/Wine stall, 1% chance for a PPS Order.
That tells you a time & location where their delivery will be coming from.
Perform a mini heist on that delivery while it is in progress, before it reaches the stall. Either within the R.P.D.T. branch building itself or find the traveling NPC bringing it over.
Awards a larger chunk of xp & bulk item rewards, which could bump up the average from that stall or npc without hugely rewarding afk gameplay

[cosmic acorn]

if we get the catch rate changes only ill still be very happy with it

[wise siren]

i also think so, but there is a 110 thieving update this year i think so its good to give some ideas for that 😛

[cosmic acorn]

oh for sure

[umbral glade]

That could build in with some of the mechanics from capers too, so they're used more than the once

[cosmic acorn]

i think the way it should be on catch rates is:

15-25 levels above target -> drastically reduced catchrate (1%) is what it should say in the skillguide
30-40 levels above target -> 0 percent chance of being caught in the skillguide

this would mean some mobs would be viable and later mobs wouldnt be too affected

[exotic swift]

there will be a separate post in #1347565671214747698 for 110 thieving. I dunno if Mod Daze wants that discussion in this thread

[wise siren]

could be like, 30 levels above, gloves of silence are -10, hard ardy -10 kind of thing

[oblique flame]

Well.. changes to the early game will affect 110 theif.

[cosmic acorn]

yeah but we want the baseline to be approachable since alot of this is gonna be fore newer players

[steady patrol]

Cheers for all the feedback so far everyone! My main takeaways for the current proposal is:

• Generally feels in the right direction
• Consider success rates at the expense of some XP: it would be nice to 'master' some targets but also not fail so much so that you need auras to carry you. This should NOT lead to 15 min afk timers throughout the skill however

Beyond that:

• Consider additional content e.g. Pyramid Plunder, chests etc
• Check Black Ibis earn rate and consider improvements that could be made there
• Consider respawn rates of some stalls
• Drop tables DO need improvements and ideally should lean into an approach of "I'm doing this to get X item, but getting Thieving XP at the same time" (see gem rocks as an example)
• Lots and lots of other smaller suggestions (improve gloves of silence, black ibis unlock level, left click vs right click pickpocket options)

[cosmic acorn]

good writeup

[oblique flame]

That's a great summary

[tidal moon]

Another thing. Cheeky Monkey should probably lose its passive pickpocketing effect, given its a temporary event pet that only returned years later from premier club tokens.

My suggestion would be to move the effect to a thieving familiar. So magpie? Since its the only one I can remember currently.

I feel off having a unique thieving buff from a premier club pet.

[crimson sigil]

Looks good to me

[wise siren]

100%

[tidal moon]

Solid list there Daze

[thorn charm]

The google doc could do with being pinned as well cannon

[tidal moon]

I do wonder if lowering/changing snake rate in PP might make it less of a pain to do

[steady patrol]

For the Thieves Guild doors, I think I've seen a mixed bag of comments and would be good to get more confirmation on that. I pitched making them personal, but there's part of me that just feels like I'm retaining them because they ARE the best thing right now - do people want changes so they still use the doors or are they happy for them to potentially be resigned to be a thing of the past? Maybe retained as the BIS way of getting hanky points?

[oblique flame]

Desert Treasure Theiving section is painful. It's not a Theiving method, just want to express my pain.

[steady patrol]

Adding to a familiar is a nice idea and probably better economy wise!

[cosmic acorn]

where were you when door was kil

[thorn charm]

Wouldn't be the end of the world making them personal rather than shared, lessens the burden if multiple people are training in 1 spot

[tidal moon]

Honestly this alone makes me wish that thieving shops sold more lockpicks. You break so many during this section.

[keen cradle]

for improved drops, they can very good scale with lv of drops to thief lv like stone/wood spirits or fish for example to not bloat the tables and somewhat targetable if one wants specific items > possible sacrificing thief xp for lower tier ressources

[oblique flame]

The doors are locked behind a theving quest, we want players quest for good rewards. Keep the doors.

[dusk zephyr]

It's just world hopping that seems out of place in our game. I think it's fine to make them personal, but they shouldn't have as long as a timer on them if you go that route. They could just be an alternative at lower level brackets, which was what they were originally designed for. I don't think anyone thinks they're great pieces of content, just this weird outlier meta.

[tidal moon]

There are two stores that sell lockpicks

one sell 2. The other sells 10.

[wise siren]

i dont see why they are necessary after stalls are made better, world hopping is terrible content

[thorn charm]

Why aren't lockpicks smithable?

[cosmic acorn]

opening doors deffo would be less of an issue if no world hopping was required, making them respawn in 10 seconds would go a LONG way

[tidal moon]

I'm fine with doors but I do think they'd be better if they were more safecracking esque, either on the chest or the door. That it takes some time instead of relentless world hopping.

[steady patrol]

That's fair

Okay so explore making the doors personal and viable to do as a loop without world hopping would be preferred?

[keen cradle]

imo keep them as they are right now until the early thieving rebalance is done
that way doors probably fall behind anyway

[primal prairie]

definitely do away with needing to hop yeah

[cosmic acorn]

or just reduce respawn time to 10 sec pr door

[jolly hornet]

I'd personally suggest as minor changes to the doors as possible so more time can be spent on mainline thieving(NPCs or stalls) which is what I would rather be doing

[wise siren]

since they dont give loot, and locked behind a quest, ye sure

[cosmic acorn]

and its fixed

[tidal moon]

I mean any change to the door would be bunched together with the other changes

[steady patrol]

Yeah I kind of have to change the doors because the XP is so mad that even with the changes proposed doors would still be best

[steady patrol]

Well sorry that's a lie, I could change the XP on them but then they'd be annoying and you'd never do them because no one is world hopping for slightly better than average XP

[exotic swift]

done 🙂

[tidal moon]

Sometimes things are an outlier and end up a casuality of a proper rebalance. Thats life.

Same reason if we do an agility rebalance we'd probably change it so you don't climb the watchtower trellis for 30 levels straight up and down

[dusk zephyr]

accept the outrage for the health of the game 🙂

[mossy flume]

I like the idea of doors being harder to unlock, anything to avoid world hopping

[cosmic acorn]

could nerf the doors by like 10% and compensate by giving them that fast respawn timer

should make it same xp rate as worldhopping

[tidal moon]

Probably need more than a 10% nerf given the rate compared to everything else

[steady patrol]

I'll see what it looks like with a shorter respawn rate - that could be the easiest option vs rewriting to be completely personal

[oblique flame]

Maybe have each door, require a higher theving level to unlock, for each new door

[tidal moon]

Like, looking at the doc

61k xp/hr at 15 is eehh

[cosmic acorn]

yeah completely personal doors seems like it would lead to more spaghetti than is necessary haha

[tidal moon]

you don't reach that rate again on other stuff until way later

[wise siren]

unpopular opinion but nerf safecracking, how do you go from 30k xp/hr or whatever to 300k+/hr up to 1m xp/hr with very few unlocks

[oblique flame]

No and you only get those xp rates with other skills and items.

[tidal moon]

I do like the proposed rebalance rate better

[cosmic acorn]

a 10 or even 20% reduction for fast spawn timers i think would be more than fair enough

could even be 30% for that matter

[steady patrol]

Haha 😅 Honestly the thought did cross my mind but I also quite like my head attached to my neck so baby steps and all that - I'm giving you buffs and nerfs here 😄

[tidal moon]

The doc proposal is unironic over 50% xp rate reduction and I think thats the fairer

[keen cradle]

maybe the steps before are just to bad?

[thorn charm]

You could use the dinosaur pets as a familiar which boosts the door rates back up following a nerf.

That way people will have to Open the Door, get on the floor, everybody walk the dinosaur.

[tidal moon]

Its an incredible outlier compared to any similarily leveled method

[ivory burrow]

Safe cracking is far more involved to get the rates, so a big jump is fine imo. Maybe not that big but hey

[cosmic acorn]

definitely true

[cosmic acorn]

safe cracking is wayy too easy for the reward

[ivory burrow]

Doubly true now with passive sticky fingers

[cosmic acorn]

not even mentioning the insane gp from it from irons early

millions of gp for early game irons

[keen cradle]

being active should reward more xp/hr then sitting in the same spot afking by a lot imo

[steady dawn]

Any chance there could be a Cheeky Monkey reward added somewhere? The fact an actual useful pet is locked behind the Premier Tokens store definitely kinda sucks and would be a great mid-journey unlock for Thieving tbh

[steady patrol]

My feeling is those doors were never intended to be good and the numbers were balanced on a "there are 6 doors and a 5 min cooldown" completely forgetting world hopping exists (granted when it was made, world hopping was a lot worse I think -> go to lobby -> world select -> rejoin)

[ivory burrow]

millions if you do a ton of safes

small looting bag is only 55k gp when full

[tidal moon]

#1367832809997074533 message

[cosmic acorn]

it really doesnt take long to make that amount of cash

[dusk zephyr]

Rip the bandaid off. nerf it.

[oblique flame]

Us Irons need the gp.

[tidal moon]

Pretty sure you're right

[ivory burrow]

55k from a full small bag which takes 11-16 to crack which take... idk what timer tbf

[cosmic acorn]

i like the GP but its 100% an outlier compared to every other thieving method

[ivory burrow]

but to make 1m from that you're looking at 200-300 safes

[tidal moon]

Ultimately I think skills are better off when they're arch style balance of escalating xp instead of here is a ridiculous method you will be 40 levels higher in the next hour.

[cosmic acorn]

you get a bunch of tokens that each reward 40k coins

[ivory burrow]

Skills are better off when they're balance with a variety of levels of activity/intensity at different exp/reward rates*

[tidal moon]

This is also true

[thorn charm]

I feel like im in the minority being disappointed with safecracking, not being able to actually use the rare paintings you steal in a PoH was a shame

[ivory burrow]

The different style has to be unlocked at some point which will naturally cause a jump in exp rates from that

[tidal moon]

But I feel the biggest intensity at thieving is PP

[ivory burrow]

Which somewhat makes the former point harder to achieve

[keen cradle]

it looks more gp then it is, i dont think i got 10m+ from 66-99 from safes on my cgim

[ivory burrow]

It's also, outside of PvM which you don't get into for a solid while, the only reliable source of early game gp

[oblique flame]

The gp is luck based.

[ivory burrow]

We don't count selling to stores

[tidal moon]

Yeah. Though i'd argue probably not at 15

[tidal moon]

WFE changed gp for irons quite a lot, and probably not for the better

[ivory burrow]

why not level 1, laughs in Whirligigs

WFE are being nerfed so somewhat a moot point in this instance

[oblique flame]

Quest Points should be noted, but the amount it gives is limited.

[cosmic acorn]

questing gives a ton of gp

[ivory burrow]

yeah QP is a solid cash injection but a one off source, it's not repeatable

[oblique flame]

Not for CGIM.

[cosmic acorn]

there is more than enough cash in the magical dices to carry you till better moneymaking methods

[ivory burrow]

CGIM is, realistically, very far removed from where balance should be considered to be "correct" for

[tidal moon]

I like safecracking but it did feel like a radical xp jump when you unlock it for no real clear increase in difficulty/intensity

[ivory burrow]

Given it's a further self-imposed limit on a self-imposed limit game mode

[tidal moon]

If anything its less intensive AND several times faster AND better loot than the skill to that point

[hard finch]

I'm very much in favour of the introduction of good gp methods in early thieving, probably at the cost of xp

[tidal moon]

Which just feels ???

[oblique flame]

Explorer Jack is another way to get GP for Iron, It's also limited.

[ivory burrow]

definitely more intensive esp if you're going for the good rates

[cosmic acorn]

how much money do you even need early on?
like genuinely you dont need that much to bridge the gap to real moneymakers

[ivory burrow]

You don't stand in 1 spot click man until punched and repeat, you've got a lot of travelling to do in between each safe (And more active if using the hotspot mechanic)

[oblique flame]

Summoning you never have enough.

[tidal moon]

Pyramid Plunder is more intensive has worse rate and because banking is a pain unless you got the sceptre, you end up tossing most loot to the ground

[west flicker]

are you turning your excess pouches into spirit shards via Bogrod?

Can save a lot of money that way

[hard finch]

yes there are other methods, but thematically, thieving being reasonable gp just makes sense, and having obvious options that you can just go to for 250k-500k raw cash/hr at a low level smooths over the early levelling experience for those who want it, and I don't think it breaks anything

I'm not much of a fan of the gullible tourist though

[cosmic acorn]

if you turn in your pouches its not bad at all

furthermore you do not need super high summoning to make money from other sources

[tidal moon]

I've done safecracking high intensity method for all perma rewards on 2 accs, it feels like a drop in intensity tbh.

At least it did to me.

[ivory burrow]

Tbf I guess somewhat it depends on what all bonuses you have access to as well. More unlocks, auras etc. makes standard thieving even more afk

[tidal moon]

I guess its increase in intensity compared to menaphites

and compared to later unlock of elves and all buffs available at certain other spots

[oblique flame]

I had no idea this was a thing. That sounds very helpful

[ivory burrow]

Menaphites are kinda ridiculous, they're 100% chance super early on right?

[tidal moon]

I still don't feel safes justify a... how much faster is it once you get it?

like triple your previous thieving xp rate?

more?

[ivory burrow]

yeah lv 46 it's 100% with the best aura

[oblique flame]

The Kingdom is another big reason you need millions of gp early.

[hard finch]

yeah safes are broken

ridiculously powerful

(just as dwarf traders were before)

[west flicker]

aye ^^ you get 70% spirit shards back of any pouches/scrolls you turn in ^^

[hard finch]

I feel like 'early game thieving' ends at the point you unlock them though

[ivory burrow]

Safecracking provides between 300,000 experience an hour at level 62, to 500,000 experience per hour at level 90.

With a sufficiently high enough success rate, the player should expect 116,000 experience per hour with Auto-Pickpocketing and 200,000 experience per hour with an active playstyle.
For Druids

So it's not that huge of a gap, but that 200k is probably heavily carried by the aura

[oblique flame]

I got all these poches on my GIM to turn in. I just have them in the group storage.

[tidal moon]

just 500k at 90? I could have sworn it was higher

[wise siren]

it is 1m/hr high lvl

[tidal moon]

Top end felt like it was around the million mark

yeah

[fossil totem]

For group ironman this was even not that worse as you can just do the aura which would improve pickpocketing rates, without auras early game thieving is even less balanced and is essentially restricted to just world hopping whereas with the aura alternatives like gullible tourist were at least doable.

I greatly support changing the early game experience, especially if RS3 also plans to do leagues regularly, strong support for this from my part. I'm hoping changes will be live before the next leagues.

I support doors being nerfed, i also support drop tables being updated perhaps with resources that have been added to the game since the pickpocketing targets or stalls were added in the game, to stay on theme. Like: if new seeds were added in the game since master farmers or farmers were released, they could be added to the drop table.

[ivory burrow]

tbh I think that's a point to consider as well. Pickpocketing has boosts, Safecracking (afaik?) doesn't

So pickpocketing rates increase with unlocks and levels whilst safecracking is largely the same until you hit the new tier of safes

(And/or certain quests for unlocks)

[west flicker]

Maybe it's just me, but I also hope one day they can make safecracking clearer (the flashes specifically)
It feels weird that using High Contrast Mode provides such a big visibility benefit there

[ivory burrow]

So... I don't think safe cracking is the issue so much as the other options are heavily gated behind unlocks for higher rates that you likely won't have access to whilst doing them

-# Insert obligatory auras bad here /s

[tidal moon]

I do agree with the aura issues people have raised, in part I think it is a general aura issue though.

The entire system of how aura works from obtaining to using to how it functions and is integrated in the game is a whole thing to untangle.

[ivory burrow]

I think the thieving one is (Or at least, it definitely feels) far more impactful than most others

[west flicker]

Hear me out: thieving aura fragments obtained from various sources
One part from pickpocketing, one from stalls, one from safes, one from pyramid plunder, one from ? (sorceress' garden perhaps?)
Each part unlocks one tier of the aura, but makes the next parts rarer

[wise siren]

also, someone earlier said druids are like 200k xp/hr, no lol they are like 110k xp/hr at lvl 85 with aura thats not competing with lvl 65 safecracking 300k xp/hr

[oblique flame]

That should be done with the Aura rework. So Aura update not a Theiving update.

[cosmic acorn]

yeah sure some thieving methods are good lategame with all unlocks, but early game its deffo not even close to these other methods

[oblique flame]

Pickpocket Druid for Herbs is something I have done a couple of times on the Iron.
It's ok.

[cosmic acorn]

safecracking is the outlier at 300-950k exp, but just making the early game failrate lower would bring normal pickpocketing atleast a bit closer

[wise siren]

im saying safecracking is atleast 5x as good as any alternative at its level

[fossil totem]

Nerfs aren't always as appreciated, but we've seen recently nerfs to fun methods (like the upcoming boss nerf, past nerfs to for instance ed3). I don't consider hopping worlds and opening the doors as very fun content. I think a nerf would be less controversial for those than for actual fun content.

A safecracking nerf would be more controversial but in might all honesty also be needed, as i don't think a lot of people are levelling the skill via other methods. It's a bit unfortunate that nowadays in thieving a lot of skilling methods are not explored at all. What would help though is if the thieving outfit drop rates were increased, which would help revitalize pyramid plunder a bit. I think for other high levelling methods, it'll have to be rewarding as thieving is considered a "moneymaking skill", so maybe not necessarily the xp rates (even if a slight buff could help), but the loot also needing an update. I'm not super familiar with all high level training methods and their loot, but that's also a result of safecracking being so good.

[cosmic acorn]

boss nerfs just got announced to be reverted btw

[fossil totem]

i didn't know that, need to check where they announced that.

[cosmic acorn]

nerfing doors for the sake of them not feeling bad to do is fine though

like upping respawn timers removing the need for worldhopping alltogether

[tidal moon]

Tbf the ED3 nerf was needed and the only bad part was not changing it before

It was incredibly out of line in how strong it was

[oblique flame]

Oh. That's cool. Do you have a link?

[wise siren]

nerfs are alright if there is an alternative, like nerf the op thing and buff the dead content now u have a new skill since all of the content is basically new to players

[cosmic acorn]

#game-news message

[tidal moon]

Oh thank god they're not dropped entirely just being revised

[cosmic acorn]

deffo feels right to not just do blanket common nerfs by a %

[fossil totem]

That's true

[steady dawn]

Fantastic to see

[simple root]

Haven’t had a chance to read the doc yet but any talk on blackjacking?

[snow kraken]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but losing out on almost 40kxp/hr is going to feel bad with no real replacement, and the suggested xp/hr is still best at doors at level 15 so it doesn't change a whole lot. I'd be more in favor of a smaller xp/hr nerf at doors and a bigger buff at other places. early thieving is going to feel like a grind if these numbers go through

[jolly hornet]

Yep it's in the doc. Moving those actions to left click knock out, then left click pickpocket while they are knocked out

Just for the thieves guild for now but could be expanded

[simple root]

Interesting, will it be universally always like this or could we get it so it’s only like that with a blackjack equipped?

[crimson sigil]

Here's some info: https://i.imgur.com/XuaLJY8.png

idk the ??? column, it may be base damage but it doesn't line up with some brief testing I did.

also idk what npc goes in #6

[oblique flame]

We need more failed pick lines.

[tidal moon]

More 👏 diverse 👏 npc 👏 pickpocketing 👏 shittalk

[cosmic acorn]

"Stop! You violated the law. Pay the court a fine or serve your sentence. Your stolen goods are now forfeit."

"Stop, criminal! I've heard of you. Your criminal exploits are well-known."

[wise siren]

do we know the % chance of multiple pickpockets?

that could be changed to scale with level kind of thing

[warm holly]

23 is ham guard right?

Was mentioned here earlier

[crimson sigil]

Oh cool didn't know that

yeah wiki has it listed at level 20, as does the osrs one

[warm holly]

One would assume it was copied from male ham members on the wiki then

Or never correct in game

[crimson sigil]

There's no reference anywhere else of them being different tbf, and unless you tried pickpocketing them between 20-23 no one would notice

[simple root]

You know in addition to rates would it be out of the question to make pickpocketing a bit more like safecracking and priff thieving gameplay wise?

Example: As you pickpocket the npc glows/reacts or whatever periodically indicating they are starting to notice you. If you fail to click them or maybe click off-them, whichever feels better/makes more sense, you get a mark against you. The mark increases your fail chance but doesn’t automatically make you fail. The more marks you get the more the fail chance goes up, eventually getting enough results in automatic failure and a cool down on that specific npc.

[tidal moon]

Thieving should perhaps be a bit like mining

While picpocketing you notice a wealthy target passing by

so you're encouraged to switch

like oh you've been pickpocketing this guard for a while? This other now has his a little shine around his pockets, go loot him now for a bit improved active gameplay.

Since IIRC all pickpocket targets have multiple targets wandering around

[cedar glen]

Idk, priff thieving feels so bad. They catch you once and basically within like a few secods they catch you the 2nd and 3rd time. Atleast that was how it worked last time i cared to try it

That never felt good and always seemed like something was wrong there

[simple root]

That could be cool, maybe there should also be a loot cap? Like a reverse stamina bar but not a bar where you have pick pocketed a person clean gradually dropping their loot until nothing so you go take a break from that person

[crimson sigil]

Success rate boosts:

• Gloves of Silence/Exo skeleton = +5%
• Legendary Five-finger aura = +15%
• Crystal mask = +15%
• Light Form = Crystal mask x 2?
• Magpie = +3 thieving levels (another +2 with scrolls)
• Thieving cape = +1 level
• Soul-in-a-box = +2%

[simple root]

The difference here is Priff elves are on a set max timer and it’s got no active element. The proposal here is that it’s variable based on your amount of activity you are putting in and it’s not guaranteed failure only increased failure unless you get a lot of strikes.

[crimson sigil]

Rogues' Castle npcs work like priff elves btw

[simple root]

Ever the reminder we badly need new skilling familiars if that’s the best we have.

[simple root]

TIL

[crimson sigil]

oh also waiko islanders and cyclops

[warm holly]

Spirit wallbeast summoning pouch.
Just an arm from a moving floating portal

[tidal moon]

A summoning rebalance where we got fewer combat familiars and more specific utility familiars would be great. Then make those few combat familiars meaningful when you get them.

is there thieving familiars beyond magpie

[warm holly]

Abyssal bird

Weaker than magpie i think though

Ya abyssal lurker is +4 with scroll

[simple root]

Probably not the place for the discussion, but god I hate the scroll system of summoning and wish it could be done away with entirely.

[crimson sigil]

Maybe I do that this weekend, pickpocketing research

[cosmic acorn]

i think scrolls are neat, but this is deffo not the chat for that kind of a discussion

hahaha

[simple root]

If you are going to research be sure to test the variances in the boosts.

[tidal moon]

Feel abyssals should be honed in on rc

instead of being both rc and thieving

[warm holly]

All abyssals are beast of burden for essence

The thieving and agility was useful for abyss

[fossil totem]

yes summoning is one of the skills that most needs an overhaul because 90% of familiars are never used and is dead content.

summoning familiars that help with pickpocketing success rate could be a good addition

[cosmic acorn]

summoning familiars helping with a bunch of things would be good, but it doesnt look like its on list for focus anytime soon

scroll of mixing, instantly makes all unfinished pots in your inventory (unnoted only)

[crimson sigil]

I wonder how success chance works

[cosmic acorn]

surely we just make it simple no?

[crimson sigil]

it's not

[fossil totem]

i think the existing skilling boost familiars just are not that impactful, which is why they are rarely used, also it's kinda of a struggle to even make most of these

[cosmic acorn]

set a target level for "0 failure chance" and the closer you are the lower your knock rate is

[crimson sigil]

elves don't get a 100% success rate even with all the boosts it looks like

I'm trying to figure out the current way

[cosmic acorn]

it seems ppl are pretty opposed to changing anything about lategame thieving according to some of the comments ive seen

for all i care you could make 99 thieving give a 100% success rate on all thieving targets but i think thats a bit too wild of a take XD

[wise siren]

random suggestion, elite outfit give gloves of silence effect with 54 hunter not plague's end for the skillers

[wise siren]

heres how to nerf safecracking, you now need keys to enter rooms with safes, that you get either randomly as you pickpocket anything (universal keys), or specific npcs for specific areas (key for every region/tier), the keys could be tradable making the skill buyable if you want to skip fast, and money maker for others, or untradable as extra xp every so often

[inland matrix]

I think that as an afk skill thieving has the potential to help relieve the pressure on divination if it has profitable afk options. But it also needs some nuance - I liked what one person said about having a distraction mechanic timeframe on pickpocket npcs for temporary 100% success rate. This could even be a rotating thing, like time wisp from archaeology.

[cold epoch]

How are menaphite marketeers more xp/hr than Druids when they are nearly 40% less xp per action

[inland matrix]

In rp terms, as a thief being opportunistic is probably a core idea - so switching between targets based on opportunity makes sense when it comes to 'the idea of thieving'

or

instead of rotating, there could just be the occasional special distraction event (it might be a status on an npc that randomly triggers)

some of the items that people proposed to increase the rates could also affect that

[cold epoch]

Not sure if it's in scope for a Gamejam, but "Thieving Contracts" similar to construction contracts and/or safecracking where in you get a target to steal from anywhere around Gielinor, and have to successfully steal from them for a big reward (Think similar to Rat Catchers having to sneak into the Estate to catch the rats for the ratpole)

[inland matrix]

also, for the record I think that thieving is just worse than other afk skills for profit simply because it is less afk due to getting caught, so if this was made more workable it may become a more popular method

[cold epoch]

considering theres a thread for engaging skilling content, I dont think a real solution is making it more afk

also since i just think afking is bad for the game, ebcause then you're not interacting with the game

it becomes an idle game

[inland matrix]

it is if people want to be engaged with afk, I dont think thieving is where people are expecting to be engaged

yes, for a lot of people RS is their idle game of choice - they exist and arent second-hand players 🙂

[wise siren]

not everything should be afk, but thieving is an afk skill

[inland matrix]

right

[cold epoch]

how its currently designed yes it is an afk skill, but it doesnt have to be and i dont think it should be

[wise siren]

im just saying keep the option of afk, keep the low xp rate idc

[inland matrix]

it isnt particularly profitable, so if it is active players would need huge incentive to do it at all

afk is literally the only thing going for it

[cold epoch]

"I think the game can be both engaging and afk. It doesn't have to be one or the other. Give the options so that people can play how they want to. However, I feel the afk options should never be better (loot or xp) than the active options otherwise nobody will ever do the active option."

This is exactly my opinion that someone posted in the engaging skilling content thread

Im not opposed to afk stuff, but it shouldnt be the primary nor best

[inland matrix]

thieving is not the best so no worries there

[cold epoch]

im not talking about the best skill

im just talking about strategy to train it

and i also dont think its the best that the only feasible training method to max starts at lvl 62 and doesnt change

but im getting out of scope here cuz this is early game thieving thread

[inland matrix]

thieving used to be a highly unenjoyable skill that involved an immense amount of clicking, and they "fixed" it by giving alternatives - and even when highly active, it was not a particularly profitable skill, has never really been the best way to make money

the new afk options are basically why it can be enjoyable to interact with as a skill

however

it is still hampered by an RNG element that ensures that you will be locked out of npcs for a few seconds at a time, which can be annoying

that's why so many people want this aspect modified

[cold epoch]

and i think that stems from the whole idea of what thieving is on a fundamental level. Its picking the small pocket of a single individual thousands of times for a couple raw gp or items and some measley xp. My idea that I stated earlier, which is unfortunately similiar to both construction contracts and safecracking, gets you to steal 1 target a single time for a big reward of items and/or xp, and the engagement comes from travelling and not getting caught.

also my idea isnt the solution to fix everything

[inland matrix]

contracts could also be a decent idea

[cold epoch]

just a quick pitch that has good intention in my head

involve the player in the score rather than clicking thousands of times (or once every minute or so)

I want to be the thief

Especially with a whole thiefing guilding existing, I definitely think thieving contracts are a great idea

[inland matrix]

Hm, I suppose it could either a. be like task sets where you can easily see a set target, or
b. it could be like the voice of seren mechanic where there is a rotating buff to different targets at different times and switching is a good idea for profit and rates

ofc the other option is talking to an npc but I feel that players may find this takes too long, which is why it might be good in an interface of some sort, maybe even attached to an item to let you know where to go (like how the farming amulet tells you how your crops are doing)

It could be something like 'a new shipment of goods just arrived at the menaphos market district, thieving drops are enhanced' or something like that - can be a way to make afk content engaging too

but it could also be like the enchanted gem where it just quickly tells you your thieving assignment which could be similar to slayer assignments

and you need to thieve from say 500 elves until the thieving task is done

also, I feel that a potion could be involved, if people are unhappy with the thieving mechanic but also are scared of making it too much like other skills - this is an opportunity to make a potion with a timer that lets you get 100% no catch rate

[hard marten]

how about this

new thieving training method

graverobbing

use your shovel to dig into special spots to uncover tombs with loot, many hotspots in the desert

[wise siren]

nothing major will happen to thieving as long as you finish the skill in 20 hrs an interact with none of it thanks to safecracking

[hard marten]

gameplay loop is run around looking for hotspots (they shift around) -> dig -> loot , there are defenses such as those in pyramid plunder

because they shift around, the tombs themselves can be subject to rng and you can potentially pull a very valuable tomb

[cold epoch]

same premise as my thieving contract just themed different. I do like it especially since it's less of a "copy paste" of contruction contracts like my theme was

[hard marten]

I was initially half joking but it is a decent idea, I don't think it could take the place of a contract idea though since the premise there is having consistent access to a system that takes you around the world and up and down the level range

[cold epoch]

yeah, i mean graverobbing could literally just be one of the places the contract sends you to. "rich dude died and buried himself with his family heirloom, go get it"

[cosmic acorn]

thieves guild contract
steal from x mobs till you get these things then turn it in for a reward

[fossil totem]

thieving contracts could also be an idea maybe to help you direct who to pickpocket for boosted xp or gp rewards, something like that.

[fossil totem]

yeah this

[cold epoch]

im not opposed to that as a separate addition as well. But my issue is click once every min or two a couple hundred times for small xp drops and uninteractive play. All the directed thing does is add another layer of, after doing that for an hour, move to this pickpocket over here for an hour now

[hard marten]

graverobbing could be a way to differentiate contracted thieving from normal thieving, instead of contracts just being "do this thieving thing for this amount of time"

[cold epoch]

true

[fossil totem]

think i've said it before but pyramid plunder would also be done more if the skill outfit pieces weren't absurdly low drop rates (in particular since obtaining the outfit probably takes longer than just safecracking to 99, making the outfit never worth the cost to invest time in obtaining the outfit).

[inland matrix]

I doubt they are adding like a whole minigame around this, that's why I tried dumbing down how it could be implemented and compared it to current examples in game

[hard marten]

in that vein there should be more though... bank heists, castle heists

[cold epoch]

heists is a great word

[hard marten]

yeah I was thinking that, this would be better off as a whole content update

[cold epoch]

yes of course

[inland matrix]

Yeah, new area, new npcs, new stuff to do, probably not 'early game rebalance" rebalance being the key word, probably the only intention is to change some numbers, not add anything

[fossil totem]

would probably feel a bit similar to archaeology

[cold epoch]

the whole point i was making with the (im calling them heists now) heist update is that thieving has an underlying problem of click once every 1-2 min then wait to level up

(other skills have this issue too but we're in a thieving thread)

[inland matrix]

we have heists already btw - it is a minigame and I heard a mod say they are going to add new high level ones

[hard marten]

I do believe heists were brought up some time before but I can't remember any details

[cold epoch]

im not opposed to more things in game that combine skills together. I think a lot of current content that involves more than one skill are very enjoyable

[fossil totem]

but graverobbing could be an interesting idea to do on the new area because well if i think of vampires i think of their graves

[cold epoch]

had no clue, but if that is the case, it should be apart of the skill rather than a minigame imo

[hard marten]

eh I'd rather things like that be game-wide

not very fond of region-exclusive content

[fossil totem]

but that would feel similar to barrows which is also sort of "graverobbing-themed".

[cold epoch]

it could definitely be launched with havenhythe, for the aforementioned reason

but not be exclusive to havenhythe

[fossil totem]

well morytania & maybe the desert are like the 2 most obvious places for stuff like that

but "pyramid plunder" also in a way is a bit similar to "graverobbing" but instead it is pyramid treasure looting

[inland matrix]

the game rewards thieving and hunter experience. The issue is that it is player vs player and the rewards dont really incentivize it very well for going through active engagement like that

[cold epoch]

offtopic but im glad the new area starts with an H, so if we get a lodestone, we dont have to do some crazy alt shift ABYX stuff

[cold epoch]

makes sense. and again i think it should be apart of the actual skill loop not just a minigame, and yeah no pvp

[fossil totem]

maybe wilderness too, and theres stuff like waterfall dungeon (tho i think considering the lore it'd be weird if you decide to graverob that again)

[inland matrix]

it isnt like player killing though I should clarify, more like hide and seek

[cold epoch]

theres definitely lots of places this could work. im thinking draynor manor for a low level one for sure

[fossil totem]

a problem with the existing areas is that they need to be enlarged a bit because the activities & stuff there is a bit crammed together so if you want updates/new contents in existing areas, some of these need to be enlargened.

[inland matrix]

they could just add new areas

[fossil totem]

yes draynor manor is a good call too

[cold epoch]

also i want to apologise for really taking this thread off topic of a simple rebalance of early game thieving curve

[fossil totem]

new areas or area expansions in the overworld are kind of rare, we now get one with havenhythe which i greatly like, but there haven't been too many other than maybe other realms/dungeons/boss places & the dig sites. I think menaphos was like the last obvious overworld one. I suppose senntisten while underground should also count.

might be forgetting stuff

anachronia too

& lost grove & ungael

[cold epoch]

Also helps with a problem Anachronia has mentioned here https://discord.com/channels/303835144073248770/1367158455693082644

[kindred obsidian]

Pickpocketunerties!!!

[cold epoch]

xd

[inland matrix]

Yes basically pickpocketunities, or thieving opportunities lol

[cold epoch]

yeah i will say, that isnt a bad quick solution for better rates and a bit more interaction

[inland matrix]

being a way to have some engagement in an afk skill without making it so active that noone wants to do it

[cold epoch]

i think its good just for the fact that it just makes it a more common system across the game as a whole

[inland matrix]

and maybe using it as a way for the player to have temporary no-fail rates

[cold epoch]

The afk stuff would still exist its not like it would get removed. But adding active methods should also be the primary training method that yields the best rates

to actually have the player playing the game

[kindred obsidian]

I think this is as close to a formula we've ever been given #1367832809997074533 message

[inland matrix]

oh sure

[cold epoch]

thats the biggest problem here imo, aside from safecracking, theres no active method of thieving thats worthwhile. With a safecracking nerf and/or new method somewhere could help break up the grind

I don't want to do safes from 62-99, and i dont want to click on elves every few minutes

[inland matrix]

well, pyramid plunder was the primary method before safecracking, and it was active

I remember those days though, kinda tedious

[cold epoch]

yeah, i dont like PP but also thats fine i guess. extremely repetitive tho

same with safes, pretty repetitive

[manic swift]

i'm assuming early game means before 62?
as much as safecracking can be boring, it is also a perfectly fine activity
world hopping for jail doors is not however, and nothing even comes close

[cold epoch]

I would imagine so yeah, the grind pre62 on my GIM actually felt really grotesque especially since it was the start of GIM as a whole gamemode so doors were HEAVILY contested for months

i ended up just doing Gullible Tourist until 62

also not fun

[ivory burrow]

This is somewhat odd unless other things are adjusted to also benefit from the aura. Afaik, safecracking and stalls have no benefit from it?

[cold epoch]

yeah and what about GIM that already have the aura at Legendary tier just for existing?

[ivory burrow]

Instance doors and change them so you can <commonly/uncommonly/semi-rarely> get a key from pickpocketing other NPCs which allows you access to them

Tbf that's a separate 'issue'

[cold epoch]

Yeah I was thinking of instanced doors but also, doors arent even contested now again. you might get unlucky running into someone but the actual issue is that you can only open 6 doors before you have to break the 4th wall and go to a new server for the doors to be closed again??

[inland matrix]

you could just gain the ability to lock them yourself I guess

[ivory burrow]

That's what the key's for! Bypass their CD

[manic swift]

i'd like it if the chests behind the doors were worth doing

[ivory burrow]

Honestly I would love a BGH/Sorceress garden hybrid minigame specifiaclly for thieving, but realistically it probably wouldn't be an early game thing

[ivory burrow]

osrs varlamore urchins come to mind for this.
Tbf there are 'more active' pickpocket variants, blackjacking and the like. Idk what their exp rates actually compare as

[manic swift]

i really really don't wanna do blackjacking without meny entry swapper

[inland matrix]

tbh it is comical how limited in scope blackjacking is, could be expanded

[ivory burrow]

It's high rate but far more intense than standard pikcpokceting, which is reasonable

[simple root]

Blackjacking in document proposal will make the process left click

[ivory burrow]

tbf even the current live rates on the doc

[manic swift]

you got there eventually lol

[ivory burrow]

it's huge rates compared to other options

[manic swift]

but that's great

[ivory burrow]

being heavily brought down in return for the left click version

[inland matrix]

blackjacking is not afk so ofc it would be a bit higher

[manic swift]

still doesn't diminish my desire for menu entry swapper in rs3, but that's besides this channel

[inland matrix]

that like manually swapping the click options yourself or something

would solve the whole right click left click, talk on top, pickpocket on top, etc

[indigo wasp]

Can male and female H.A.M. members just be made the same level/xp? OSRS already made this change a whiel back

Also an extremely minor quick change purely for flavour reasons:

Add a copy of Martin Thwait to the Thieves' Guild, so you can buy the skillcape in the guild.

[loud torrent]

Dear Mod Daze,

Since this thread is about early level thieving rebalancing, how about increasing the Thieving skill level to 20 as a good quality of life improvement for free-to-play players in RuneScape?

Level 5 is a very low starting point and doesn't make much sense. There are 3 NPCs that could be pickpocketed within Level 20. By introducing the "Buyers and Cellars" quest and opening up the H.A.M. Hideout, we could enhance the longevity and retention of the game and make it easier for returning or new players to engage with the skill. Considering that the recent pay-to-play skill such as Archaeology goes up to level 20, it would be beneficial to raise the Thieving skill level to 20 as well to keep a consistent pace.

[vast citrus]

Support

[tidal moon]

This would put it in line with Arch that got a level 20 cap

[wise siren]

genuine question, whats the point other than higher total level? no new stalls, wont be able to afk men, even if that was granted its like 9k gp/hr, for what its worth i agree with making buyers and cellars f2p, but usually only level 120 skills get 20 f2p limit, you'd more likely see 20 herb/farm/slay, and imo better ask for agility for run energy

[vast citrus]

It would give new players a better sense of what thieving content is available in p2p by participating in activities that just aren't available to f2p now

[loud torrent]

I agree with Anroy, better teaser equals better representation of member skills. Plus thieving is becoming a level 110 at the end of the year and eventually the skill will be level 120 in the future. If a jmod is rebalancing low level skill, it would be easier to be consistent at levels.

[wise siren]

granted, but im saying lvl 20 is no different than lvl 5 just takes 20 mins longer of a teaser so to speak as it unlocks nothing to taste, as opposed to arch getting you the full collection and necro giving new rituals

[loud torrent]

Jagex at one point few years ago had stated to make old p2p skills to level 20.

However, having thieving to level 20 would help in the future to open up more areas unlocking more easier old content or creating new content for f2p. If Jmod were to make something for a f2p quest in terms of requirements, level 20 will be more flexible than locking to level 5.

I already made threads about Herblore and Farming f2p QoL in gaming suggestion.

[oblique flame]

I would rather Theiving just become a f2p skill.

Theiving has enough content in the f2p world to train to 110.
Making the skill f2p, improves the members game.

[inland matrix]

thieving resources are not particularly valuable, making the skill f2p would make them worth even less due to a much greater supply from f2p players without changing the demand, and the skill as a whole would suffer even more than it already does due to that, so I have to disagree

[cold epoch]

tbh, what even are thieving resources?

all i can think is gp tbh

technically seeds and catalysts i guess

[inland matrix]

it mostly shares loot tables with pvm, sadly, which is why it is kinda low - because slayer and bossing are also bringing in the same resources

which means that the supply is massive

[cold epoch]

but thieving doesnt even have its own "resource" like gathering skills

[inland matrix]

they should correct this! It would help the skill a lot

thieving restricted resources is definitely needed!

that goes for all levels, low, mid, high

[cold epoch]

well im not entirely sure it should have its "own supply" per se. Thieving is classified as a support skill rather than a gathering skill. Maybe Thieving is where the Bulk of things like wood/stone spirits and catalysts come from

[inland matrix]

I see it as a gameplay option - and with that thinking, is this option useful to pursue? Currently, once you get 99, what is the point?

You could never do it and still have everything you need

[cold epoch]

what do people do with thieving now adays after getting 99/120/200m

no one interacts with it aside from obtaining niche items like crystal tool seeds

among other things ofc

[inland matrix]

it is not a very good afk profit skill since divination is superior in all ways, so, nothing tbh

it lacks a niche

[ivory burrow]

It provides an alternate way to acquire a decent number of items from other skills without their actual requirement

[cold epoch]

and thats where skilling support items comes in imo. Implement items that are not needed but desired for skilling the other skills

[ivory burrow]

e.g. porters, anima stones, there's a couple of more unique things in various chests etc

[inland matrix]

a lot of that can just come from seren spirits these days

[cold epoch]

yeah, and also i think its okay for a skill, especially thieving, to kinda lay low in the background of the game

[ivory burrow]

seren spirits are 'passive' and not a reliable source of most things tbh

[inland matrix]

PvM is usually more reliable than thieving for collecting targeted drops - as thieving has a pretty wide range of stuff that you end up getting usually

it just isnt that great

[cold epoch]

thieving should be the premier version of PVM for skillers

in that case

[inland matrix]

yep

the funny thing is

PvM can be fully afk

lol!

yet we want to make thieving harder 💀 when it is just worse

[ivory burrow]

So what I'm hearing is, remove a bunch of stuff from PvM drop tables and replace it with "Thief spirits"
But to circle back to the actual point of the thread, that's not really anything to do with early game 😄

[cold epoch]

not necessarily. the two things brought up today arent interconnected

we can still have an active training method while still having this skill as the "skillers PVM"

yeah i keep getting us out of scope.

[inland matrix]

PvM drops do need a nerf, the game economy would benefit a lot, although the specifics would need a lot of care, and it would be pretty political - but! they are already doing this with the game health updates so they know there is an issue!

[ivory burrow]

Tbh in a lot of cases idk if it's a PvM drops need a nerf or more... Skilling needs to be able to provide more things

[cold epoch]

but idk there isnt much to discuss in this thread outside of people giving completely new ideas for early game thieving, which then circles back to the whole point of the discussion we've been having in that thieving is kinda bland and pointless as a skill

lowkey i think its the latter

just thinking about it, i cant think of any skilling way to obtain the sheer amount of supplies that pvm can

even as a low effort player like @inland matrix mentioned

anyway i gtg ill rejoin the convo in a couple hours

[inland matrix]

Yes exactly

Thieving needs to find it's purpose again

maybe low level is a good place for experimentation with that

[cedar glen]

Both really

[woeful oriole]

It would be nice if the improved pickpocketing loot from NPCs up to level 40 Thieving no longer required the Lost Her Marbles miniquest. The miniquest already requires level 41 Thieving, so players could easily complete it without ever pickpocketing another man/woman (1), farmer (10), Al Kharid warrior, or warrior woman (25).

[woeful oriole]

I second this and also making male/female H.A.M. members consistent, as others have suggested.

[final crater]

i would love this skill for f2p as level 20 it would be awesome for people to train 🙂

[hard marten]

if you want thieving to be valuable, it needs methods that have real barriers to entry other than simply having a level req

there's no point in doing pretty much anything else before that

a pyramid plunder refresh would be a good place to start

[inland matrix]

how would we refresh that ? more exp? new loot? new mode? give it an afk element so that it isnt tedious?

[hard marten]

the last part is the last thing you'd want to do

being tedious is what keeps something from being afked to irrelevance

[inland matrix]

well, I mean, Im just saying there is a reason people do safecracking lol

[hard marten]

short of extremely overpowered rewards that need that rate of activity to maintain a realistic price for anyone to use

[drifting kindle]

improving the rewards would be the play, given there's a large demographic where XP falls off mattering after whatever max level is (or 200m)

and we don't need ANOTHER afk activity for thieving when we have a number of things like safes or max level pickpocket targets

[inland matrix]

just keep in mind that many runescape players dont want to do something that involves too much clicking over the span of say a couple of minutes

like me, I would not play runescape at all if afk options didnt exist, it is a unique aspect of this game that other games do not have

so, if we arent improving rewards, and if the xp is fine as is, then there is only one option left

otherwise it'll just be what it is already imo

[drifting kindle]

then PP wouldn't be for you, you'd already have a number of options in thieving itself, and many more in the rest of the game

[hard marten]

quite frankly if you are an afk player, nothing you will ever do will be valuable

[inland matrix]

I was asking about what kind of changes a refresh could offer that would grant relevance and player involvement

[hard marten]

well I brought it up as part of addressing thieving value, so it would be rewards

[inland matrix]

Yes, but my impression is that they dont want to do loot changes to thieving at this time, maybe they will at a later date

[tidal moon]

people do safecracking because its low effort high reward compared to everything else

[hard marten]

yeah not right now, I was talking to the people that are talking about value in this thread

the gamejam is about improving the training curve of thieving, very unrelated

[inland matrix]

and someone else said that the xp rates are fine

for PP

[tidal moon]

XP rates on PP aren't great but arguably its more safecracking xp rates that are whack

[hard marten]

If it was going to be addressed for value, I'd probably be against buffing its exp at the same time unless it was carefully balanced to where as soon as you have better, less intense alternatives, the rewards go up

[tidal moon]

Why do PP when safecracking is 2-3 times as fast, less intense, and half the time has better loot

Much more consistent at least and not very inventory management related

[inland matrix]

well, I probably wouldnt have gotten thieving to 99 without safecracking, that's for sure

even though I prefer low intensity gameplay, I am always willing to try things and use high intensity methods - briefly

but never long term

that's just stress tbh

[hard marten]

I'm the opposite

short of doing divination if I'm going to be afking I'd rather log out and do literally anything else

[tidal moon]

The issue with Safecracking is that its pulling too many levers at once.

Low intensity should ideally be less efficient as a trade off. Training methods that are highest income probably also shouldn't be highest xp.

If you monopolize by being better in every way then no niche exist for other methods

[inland matrix]

I did not see safecracking on the money making methods page so I'm not sure

I see a reddit thread that says a guy made 6-7m going from 62 to 99

seems low

and you sacrifice getting the thieves guild points if you do that apparently, so most people probably dont make anything

[tidal moon]

Probably signals how low gp thieving is otherwise. There is a reason ironmen have rushed safecracking and genuinely felt a difference.

No you get thieves guild point from safe bag regardless, you only sacrifice the bonus items points if you want more gp

[inland matrix]

you can turn them in for points as well

[tidal moon]

Yeah but you're never in a no-point scenario

[inland matrix]

if you want to get the master items that go on the toolbelt you need like... a lot, safecracking to 99 did not get me enough at least XD

[tidal moon]

IIRC for most players the gp is a better deal than pilfer points from items

Because primarily pilfer is from bag

[inland matrix]

eh, 7m isnt really anything

[tidal moon]

But its still stronger than other methods. Its the most rewarding in every way right now. You understand the issue there right.

[inland matrix]

I think that is more an argument for how terrible thieving is as a whole

[tidal moon]

I think general thieving need to be buffed up, but tbh safecracking is also too fast for what it is

[cosmic acorn]

A lil bitta elves can be good for some porters

[cosmic acorn]

You can do that at like a super low level thats a really good amount of cash early

[inland matrix]

mining iron ore as a f2p is also slow but much better than that and with even lower intensity

that was how I started up my alts to try to support themselves a bit so I know 7m is easy to make for a brand new character

[tidal moon]

Found the thread you said, that was someone not selling the items but trading them for pilfer points

found someone else citing double that

[cosmic acorn]

what would iron ore do

making iron equipment is like super bad alch values

not to mention you would need the level for high alch

[inland matrix]

You just sell the ore

to the ge

[cosmic acorn]

i think we might be speaking past eachother

my argument is from an iron perspective

[inland matrix]

Understandable, profit is perhaps not a priority for irons, although some of them may still consider the price of bonds as a standard

[tidal moon]

It was the strongest way to get gp on irons until WFE really

I do think figure 7m is too low though

[cosmic acorn]

im gonna be honest you will not see a bond being bought by an iron until wayyy later

[cosmic acorn]

yeah for sure

i got about 6-7m by like level 90/91

[tidal moon]

and if thats without selling the artifacts, and keeping in mind 62-91 isn't even halfway to 99, safecracking become much better in comparison

[cosmic acorn]

safecracking is completely nuts on irons early

its boring but meta for a reason

[inland matrix]

after you get 99, do irons still do thieving?

[cosmic acorn]

yes at elves in priff

aswell at ham members

for clue scrolls

but basically nowhere else

not saying you cant, just not the norm

[inland matrix]

I suppose that is understandable since you dont have to worry about ge value or supply

[cosmic acorn]

yeah so anything we go for is something beneficial for the account

[inland matrix]

I dont think that game balance changes that affect the ge will affect irons all that significantly then

[cosmic acorn]

really depends on the changes

like if the change is to remove alchables? yeah doesnt impact us much

is it to remove other things we need? pretty impactful

[inland matrix]

In my opinion, thieving needs purpose when it comes to non-irons - but I'm glad to hear that when trading is not an option that it becomes useful.

[oblique flame]

It's a support skill, you have to train it as a main.

[inland matrix]

But what do you get out of it? Quest requirements?

[cosmic acorn]

yeah im sorry i dont have much to contribute regarding how good it is for mains

its good for early game and its ok for irons late but nothing important to get to 99

[inland matrix]

I think that it has the bones in place currently to be a useful money maker for players who prefer afk activities. All it really needs is some changes to the loot - it needs things that are exclusively gained via it.

[gritty reef]

Is there a reason HAM members aren’t being combined into one skill requirement? Men currently have a worse XP/hr rate than women plus having women be a lower level requirement feels like outdated design.

I do like the solution to add a more forgiving Agility check to prevent being kicked out. It adds another reward for training agility, reinforces the link between the skills (multi pickpocketing), and fixes the annoyance in a healthier way imo.

[cold epoch]

But is it better than just doing div with a memory dowser prolly not

[cold epoch]

I personally think nothing should be made with player trading in mind. Player trading prices are still ran by bots (people literally afking dozens of accounts for single items)

[inland matrix]

Well, "player economy" is a big part of the game

[cold epoch]

Yes but that should be driven by the players not the devs.

The game should function without player trading. Player trading is supposed to be for ease of access not driving how the game develops

[inland matrix]

Well, I dont think players actually control it, it is really just a matter of what the meta thing to do is - and players are naturally going to do that

the devs are what controls if that exists or not

[cold epoch]

Players always swarm to what's "good money" the "meta" thing won't be good money if everyone is doing it and the good money will be the stuff people aren't doing as long as its relevant.

[inland matrix]

Yes, that is why every afk player in the game is at incandescent wisps

there is no good alternative, so, everyone is there, at one spot, lol

this is not a player choice, it is the meta

if there were options then maybe it could be a choice

that is one reason why balancing thieving could be useful for the afk players

[drifting kindle]

it's because out of the afk skilling things it's the highest in demand with the lowest asks. When it was worse at various times it got pulled up by people moving to other better thing like arch or random skilling updates

other things get pulled up by div too, but usually if they catch up they drop back down by being less in demand, so if people shift to that instead it drops

[inland matrix]

Yes

[drifting kindle]

because it's the same pool of people afking everything and going to "whatever's best"

[cold epoch]

But that problem doesn't have anything to do with player trading yet when everyone talks about balance they bring up ge prices

[drifting kindle]

If you compare the money you get from various bosses you see a lot more variety and gaps in how much you're getting at different bosses, because of differing skill sets, difficulty, preferences, etc

afk skilling is just the same basic curve

because the only reason to choose one over the other is "someone told me it's better right now"

technically incandescent energy isn't even at the top right now

but the moment div people see that and go "oh that other thing is more money" they'll get pulled down and it goes up from equilibrium of afk skillers/bots covering the afkable chores

[inland matrix]

It is because you can make 5-7m an hour selling incandescent energy on the ge - and every other afk activity is less, often by a lot - people want to do something and watch youtube, or work, or just casually play on their phone - people just want a casual way to play that eventually rewards them for it, which involves buying things on the ge

[inland matrix]

these other methods are good but they are a lot more clicks too

however pickpocketing has the potential to be almost as afk as div, it is just a matter of the loot table being kinda mid and the stun thing that is kinda hard to avoid

that's why I think it could help with balancing

[hard marten]

other skills would need to produce a resource as useful and as sunk out of the game as div energy to be able to compete

anything that's initially more gp per hour will get swarmed until it's not anymore

and if the resource isn't heavily used, it will never be more gp per hour ever again

[inland matrix]

a cooking rework could make food more viable which would impact fishing - that was the old way and was quite dependable too - until adrenaline use made food less wanted in favor of potions - but this is a thieving rework so I suppose I ought not to delve too deeply into that

[hard marten]

the problem with food is it already has alternatives within and without

[inland matrix]

well my idea is that we should have a way to combine food with potions

that would fix it

[drifting kindle]

Div is about as close as you can get to having an organic "everyone is obligated to give you their money for no effort" as it gets given how it's tied into so many tools and gear people need to use, and that could go out the window if at any time they make a non-afk better div energy gathering option which pulls the value of AFKing down

otherwise value of items comes from how important it is and how much other people don't want to do it, hence why value usually comes from things that feel like chores or offer any form of inconvenience

[inland matrix]

well yes if they ever nerf div with a non-afk method then we'll all have to start afk combat or something lol

[hard marten]

combining food with potions is odd, players drink potions way less often than they eat food

whatever mod's meals idea to replace auras would be better, if those meals use a lot of different food items

[inland matrix]

hm I see, meals instead of auras

[hard marten]

unfortunately that would involve taking away things many players now use basically for free and putting a cost on it, it hasn't been talked about except by players in a long time

[inland matrix]

Ah yes it seems unlikely, possibly could spark a revolt

food and potions may seem off but it could still work! I think so anyways. I thought it should also cost runes as some kind of magical creation (culinaromancy) but that's just my thought about it lol

in any case while thieving doesnt need to follow my ideas, I do think a rebalance could greatly help it and I have high hopes for what it can achieve! 🙂

[cosmic acorn]

Definitely not better than efficient stuff, but its chill

[hard finch]

would've been nice to have seen afk thieving take inspiration from melvor, such that you don't stop thieving when caught and it becomes afk due to some kind of automated food consumption

would be a good sink for food if you can make afk thieving consume a couple hundred shark an hour

[warm holly]

i've brought it up a few times before, but there's a buncha non-interactable druids around Kaqemeex.
they'd be a decent early game thieving target

possibly for herbs, seeds and and/or herblore secondaries

perhaps even some 1 dose potions

[cold epoch]

i like that idea @warm holly, maybe they give early game secondary potion ingredients, since farmers/master farmers give seeds already

[heavy drum]

I think this, and other similar changes, are much needed in the game. That being said I wonder if there isn't a way to use thieving to help the economy while providing a training method.

Some sort of reverse theft could be an interesting training method. Sneaking into say a poor or otherwise troubled area and delivering supplies while avoiding the authorities could be a really interesting training method that functions as an item sink. Imagine sneaking into the vampyre infested city of meiyerditch and providing the residents with things like food, potions, weapons, and armour to help fight back the vampyres and take over the city.

[manic swift]

wait you're cooking, reverse pickpocketing is a huge idea

so huge that i don't think its good to contain it to lower levels which is what this is about, more like a broader alternative 1-99 method

here's what i think in terms of strictly rebalancing:

• make the cell doors and chests in the guild respawn fast enough that you can cycle through them on a single world if you were to also do the chests behind them
• make the chests behind them actually worth doing xp-wise, this might come with a nerf to the doors themselves to make rates stay roughly the same
• thoroughly test the xp rate of this method at every level up to 62
• balance actual pickpocketing to be 80-90% of that rate at the level you unlock it
  • example: the door+chest method might be 50k xp/h at level 25, so al kharid warriors should be ~42k xp/h at level 25
  • some pickpocket targets could divert from this by having higher success rate and/or better loot at the cost of lower xp OR lower success rate and higher damage stuns with higher xp, menaphite marketeers are an example of the former.
• instance stalls if possible, competition over them if they were made good would be awful
• update stalls somehow??? haven't thought that far

i think there's also a big discussion to be had about updating old pickpocket loot tables, like what's reasonable compensation for those who choose to do them over the faster door+chest method, but that might be out of scope

[cold epoch]

helllllll no, im a thief bruh not robin hood (lmao)

lowkey tho thats kinda just the whole vampyre quest line

[cold epoch]

just make lockpicking use the same mechanic as safecracking

[heavy drum]

glad you like the idea. I was more shoehorning an item sink into a skill but it sort of works

[amber crater]

kind of a super late thought bc i was searching up camo frags in the search bar-- i think the outfit fragments are a pretty rough grind for most skills except like, farming. each outfit piece can be from one of three different outfits, rolled randomly, so by the time you have a single uncombined outfit, you nearly have the full trio.

i like that thieving and farming have these methods of getting the outfits faster, more active methods, using tombs or beans. really, i think each elite skilling outfit should have a way to access more fragments/speed up acquisition through a more active method,as opposed to just 'wait around for the 5 minute timer, repeat for a 50 hour grind'. it's not very engaging.

i'm not quite sure how i feel about the reward enhancer, though. the way you get it is really disconnected from thieving as a skill, and it's required for an achievement.

fundamentally, the fact that there's an 'active method' to obtain more fragments is something i wish the other skills had, because the skilling fragments are a weird friction point, and currently not the most engaging friction point in most skills

kind of a discussion to have about fragments in general, though, not necessarily in the scope of this jam project

really i think it's in a fine spot, though, compared to like, skills like RC that don't have something like that

[cold epoch]

Technically speaking the farming outfit grind is horrendous, we were kinda kinda given a bandaid for farming's outfit by having you be able to purchase the frags. I think the frags in general should scale based on how quickly/much xp is obtained, because runecrafting you HAVE to do runespan or soul altar just to obtain the frags at a decent rate whereas some of the other gathering skills can obtain the frags very low effort since you are getting a lot of xp procs quickly to trigger the frag cd every 5 minutes as intended

Definitely agree every skill should have a look at their outfit average acquisition rate.