Class Identity Problem

[novel pumice]

It's been 2 years and with the first playtest around the corner I think it's a good idea to bring this back with some changes, like I've said last time, Assault and Medic, and after thinking it a bit more, even Engineer have a HUGE identity crisis, for starters, these classes share ALMOST every weapons type making them feel... identical, the gadgets are NOT ENOUGH to differentiate them, here's my solution, with an extra addition for assault:

Assault:
-HE Grenade Launchers and Under-barrel GLs can make it more unique and add more opressive power to the class
Last time people were "saying but muh grenade spam, UGLs will make the grenade spam worse", well, the solution is simple, remove Frag and Impact grenades from assault on the grenade section and just leave him with the smokes and flares, leave the HE grenades for his gadget and UGL
-Move shield to primary and let us use the pistol at the same time, we can change between blocking or shooting
-Can use ANY AR, carbine AND BR, ONLY the G3 and MK14 in DMR category since they fit the class, NO SMGs nor PDWs

My idea here is to make Assault the ideal class for, well, assaulting, taking the lead in battles and being the main opressive class.

Medic:
-Remove C4 from medic, this will help with making the players well, do their job as medics instead of rushing the nearest player blob, leave that job to assault
-Defibrilators, I think this one is self explanatory, let us revive instantly downed players, with at least 90% of their HP so they can fight
-Can use ANY AR, ANY carbine (maybe lower the required lvl for AS VAL too?) and PDW, NO smgs and NO BRs

Engineer:
-Similar to Assault, ARs, Carbines and PDWs, REMOVE the other types from this class, I don't see a reason for it to have access to DMRs

To combat people not wanting this, server owners can enable the old weapon types for classes if they want

[tranquil sedge]

Also make the support armor Better

[lean tangle]

only remove nades when the launcher is equipped

[novel pumice]

My idea is making the grenade launcher and or UGL the main attraction of the class, the gadget will be the first thing that you start with, and the UGL can be unlocked, at, idk 150 kills on the weapon

[lean tangle]

also im not a huge fan of limiting the weapons too much. I dont want to play a class and only have one weapon type available. Im already annoyed that medic doesnt have the HB imagine if only one class has the weapon you really like. What if you dont like that class?

[novel pumice]

That's why I said what I said at the end

Maybe we can leave PDWs to the medic, I just don't think the rest fit the class, maybe SMG too

[lean tangle]

that would limit me to servers. What if no server in my region does that/ i dont like those servers?

[novel pumice]

But I think the most important thing is adding a defibrilator, that WILL make players do their job as medics

[lean tangle]

i dont think limiting weapons solves the identity problem. The issues is that gadgets are well balanced

like why do medics not even have a second choice?

[novel pumice]

Well, the defibrilator could be a second choice

Leave bandages to himself or other players that are bleeding

[lean tangle]

why would you pick the medic bag then? bandage healing is better and he has enough

[novel pumice]

Buff medic bag healing, the idea here is making players do their jobs as medics, do not neglect this class, since they removed SMGs from them, it's rare to see them and those that played it only did it for the unlimited self healing to rush

Also, make players stop wasting tickets by instant respawning

By making medic better at his job, players will wait for a rezz instead of holding spacebar the second they're downed

[lean tangle]

[pale cave]

skip button needs to be traded for the old BF "Accept/deny" revive. means you know exactly how long someone has been dead/can be revived since it can't be fast forwarded. But the revived guy can decide not to be revived there after you get the revive.

[cedar spindle]

Armor is becoming cosmetic, so this is kinda pointless

[tranquil sedge]

But my exo :(

[cedar spindle]

If it makes you feel better support is getting more HP instead

[tranquil sedge]

Ehh no cus I can still get 1 tapped in the head by a sniper

Vs if I got that exo I get another chance

[cedar spindle]

Anyways onto the actual suggestion
To balance grenade launchers:

• #1203076224327614596 message
  This suggestion pretty much
• Assault can pick to have it as an underbarrel on ARs, upside being faster to use, downside being a lack of grip, or as a seperate gadget, slower but still allows you to use the grip

Medic does need a defib and a reworked med box

As far as Engineer goes, I do think it should have DMRs, as it has a purpose of scouting for vehicles to shoot at least

As far as gadget balance goes, C4 should be removed from some classes 100%

Theoretically, if assault has a grenade launcher, it would be a nice substitute to the C4
Only classes that should have C4 is recon and engineer

[lean tangle]

structure c4 for assault

[cedar spindle]

HE grenade launcher as budget C4

[lean tangle]

[cedar spindle]

Or if there is a breaching-ish round for launchers or something idfk

[lean tangle]

but that means you need the launcher

[cedar spindle]

Sledgehammers are still there

Grenade launcher would simply be the more destructive and longer range option

[lean tangle]

sledgehammer has low range. Jumping building to building not possible

[cedar spindle]

So use launcher

[lean tangle]

.

[cedar spindle]

Well sacrifices have to be made

What can i say

[lean tangle]

structure c4

[cedar spindle]

Wouldnt launcher be better than having structure C4
Slower sure, but better range and it could kill a guy

[lean tangle]

yeah but it means no grenades no grip

[cedar spindle]

And its still within the purpose of the class in a way

[lean tangle]

what if i want grip and nades?

dont answer with hammer

[cedar spindle]

Last i checked in BF4 for example you can have the launcher seperate from the gun lol

[lean tangle]

An underbarrel grenade launcher that can go on assault rifles, with the DOWNSIDE of getting rid of your throwable grenades in exchange for the ones used in the launcher. Granting you longer range and better aim, but at the cost of not having another underbarrel and replacing your normal grenades.

linked suggestion

[cedar spindle]

Ah

[lean tangle]

[cedar spindle]

I forgot that was in there

Mb on that

[lean tangle]

beside more options = better

[cedar spindle]

Well my current point stands
If you dont want underbarrel, it can be seperate from grip

[lean tangle]

but isnt that the balance for it?

[cedar spindle]

Well the drawback of it being seperate from the gun is that its much slower to switch to

[lean tangle]

concept is there details can be discussed ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[cedar spindle]

True true

[lost prism]

[minor jungle]

How could ugls possibly make grenade spam worse besides decreasing the time to switch to it

It wouldn’t give you more grenades

If you equipped a ugl you would lose a gadget slot obviously

[cedar spindle]

If you can run multiple grenades, which you can resupply, plus UGL which you would also resupply, it can make grenade spam worse

That is unless you take away hand grenades and only have UGL grenades

Or have very few UGL grenades

Or have UGL grenades be destroyable by anti nade trophy

[pale cave]

didnt they say the ugl replaced standard frags?

[cedar spindle]

Talking more in the sense of if it isnt balanced properly

[hot dagger]

What if melee slot for all classes at start, pacularly sledge hammer for assault. If you want to jump from building, you can smash it.

Sledge hammer could be fix for bigger hole, c4 for enginneer, debri for medic/ support and pickaxe for recon

And throwable wont be remove by launcher, but become options for which would be luanched. What throwable we choose in equipment menu will decide that

[opaque plover]

“Yes I would like assault to be the frontline person but also not be able to use some of the front line guns, also bring in noob tubes even though engineer is the established explosive class”

????

Also you want medic to not rush in, but also want assault to not have SMGs, which are used to rush in the front lines… (with some exceptions of course, like the FAL. But generally cqc weapons are meant to close the distance, which you would want assault doing more than anything)

Whilst ALSO wanting engis to be encouraged to rush in with them keeping SMGs and PDWs, on top of their explosives, at the cost of their DMRs (which gives the engi less options on how they should engage vs helis and tanks)

The identity you want to bring to the classes brings more of an identity crisis to the game than what we currently have. Marcs respectfully you’re not cooking and the oven’s burning as we speak.

“To combat people not wanting this, server owners can enable the old weapon types for classes if they want”

Yeah, at the cost of our official progression status which kills any potential server growth. Not gonna work for any sane community server that wants to keep the main line of progression. When oki allows that feel free to let me know, but our guidelines consider that a huge no no unless we want to turn into a non progression server.

[opaque plover]

Exo and heavy are already strong, exo if you’re good at positioning. Heavy if you frequently use the grenades and equipment.

Armor shouldn’t be “fuck you I picked the correct class even though I played poorly I win the fight”

[opaque plover]

Also AT mine used to be a sidegrade for this use until that strategy got nerfed to the ground.

Not saying we should bring it back fully if it’s too unbalanced, but making it more viable for this would probably make less people use c4 by proxy. It would also give it a use in infantry modes, which, let’s be honest, is mostly smoke launcher/AP mines and C4 being used

[cedar spindle]

Honestly assault could be the anti-infantry class with grenade launchers if engineers FRAG RPG doesnt get any buffs and HEAT RPG gets nerfed against infantry

Can also make nade launchers seperate into HE (damage towards buildings, slightly hurts light vehicles, can 1 shot single infy, damages rest) and FRAG (can kill multiple infantry, but deals barely any damage to buildings and no damage to vehicles)

If its too much, make anti nade stop them

[lean tangle]

that should be the case either way

[cedar spindle]

Yes and no
Really depends on the overall balance of the game

As in who gets how much C4 for example

Or if anti nade should counter C4 as well, but in turn having a somewhat short cooldown before it can start blocking nades and C4 again

We are yet to see the fixed anti nade that doesnt block grenades thru solid objects

So opinion might change, but i am in favor of at the very least limiting C4 to only 2 classes

Cause C4 easily counters anti nade outside of the fact that the antinade does not get damaged by it (C4 counters almost anything actually lol)

Same with RPG

Smoke is a good counter to rush down a place filled with anti nades

[lapis plaza]

[opaque plover]

Anti nades needs some sort of cooldown or use limit nerf (and dont persist through death) before we even consider entertain something like that, as right now they’re way too strong of a defensive tool that anyone can just set and forget

Besides that though, I don’t think adding grenade launchers as a way to offset frag’s bad balance would be a good idea. We really should just be asking them to properly balance it, instead of justifying adding something because of another thing being underpowered

[lean tangle]

but grenade launchers are not there to offset frags balance

[cedar spindle]

As long as anti nades have a cooldown after X grenades destroyed, i really dont see the point in them being despawned after death (assuming explosives can damage it, including frags and such during the cooldown as well, even if it isnt a lot of damage)
Also, you can counter anti nades by just chucking C4 or rushing down the position after smoke, or both at the same time (yeah you have to manually shoot them, but once you kill the defender with those its ggs anyways)
And all classes have the ability to do so, especially chucking C4
Hence why its probably a good idea to limit C4 to fewer classes at least if nerfing it to be destroyable by anti nade is too much to ask
If im getting fucked by c4 over cover and anti nades at least limit the already broken gadget to some classes as least

They could also have a light/sound indicator when in cooldown

[cedar spindle]

They are a sidegrade at best, assuming that you cant use normal grenades alongside the grenade launcher
Grenade has fast throw, and you can hipfire while you are holding it, but relatively small range
Grenade launcher slower, cant shoot your gun (wheter or not you have it as an underbarrel while it is actively equipped as a gadget), but has greater range and you can aim it to make your shots more precise instead of just eyeballing it

[minor jungle]

Yeah I don’t see issues with assault getting anti infantry explosives, doesn’t remove identity from engineer which would remain the only anti vehicle class

That’s how it works in bf4

[cedar spindle]

I look at it this way
Engineer can carry C4, RPGs and AV grenades at the same time
C4 is good at everything, HEAT is also pretty good at killing infantry and everything that is not a tank, Tandem is pretty much for vehicles only, and AV nades do almost nothing to infy
Thats a lotta boom still against infy
And the class after that with the most explosives is support cause he can resupply C4 and grenades with 3 ammo boxes at his disposal, and 99% of the time support uses it up said on infantry
Now, if you just nerfed C4 by limiting it to engineer and recon (not that recon will ever do anything with it anyways), removing FRAG RPG and nerfing HEAT infy damage to kill maybe 1 or 2 dudes at most, and grenades from support shifted more towards assault (with him losing most if not all handheld grenades if he chooses the grenade launcher gadget, be it under a gun or as a seperate from it), and be the anti infy guy instead of engineer and support that they are now basically

I could go on on how to further balance classes but id have to straight up make a whole ass sheet and explain some aspects of it in detail, but not until i get my hands on the playtest

[minor jungle]

I do find that compared to bf I think bbr classes aren’t distinct enough

Every class gets c4

Classes share most weapon classes

[opaque plover]

Engineer is the established explosive guy, building destroyer, etc. if we put conquest aside.

What purpose would frag rpg have if assault is given an explosive nade launcher?

C4’s another debate but it’s already getting nerfed so

[minor jungle]

How is c4 getting nerfed besides indicators

[opaque plover]

Radius nerf too iirc

Which will in theory make those grouped infantry kills harder

now in practice, lets be real your teammates are still going to drop mines on your feet for one reason or another, but that’s a seperate issue with the way people play/griefing at that point

Also another scenario people fail to bring up:

person one: spams trophy
Person two: spams c4 to counter said c4 spam to clear out clumped enemies out of position, as nades aren’t working

“Why c4 spam?” even though that’s objectively the best way to counter trophy spam

[minor jungle]

Why

That’s stupid

Don’t clump together

[opaque plover]

Ask oki

[lean tangle]

oh yeah im thinking about giving engi the launcher. But both frag launcher and frag rpg could server different niches

[opaque plover]

Engi having it is fine

[minor jungle]

I feel like oki doesn’t actually play the game

Their design choices are the most backwards things ever

[lean tangle]

not enough atleast

[opaque plover]

If he does its only conquest from what I see

[minor jungle]

I mean it is a good mode

[opaque plover]

Meaning every other mode including invasion gets shafted

[minor jungle]

Is there breakthrough

I wonder

I don’t know

[opaque plover]

Invasion would be that

[minor jungle]

Oh

Why did he seperate pdws and carbines again

[opaque plover]

Yeah ik im beating a dead horse but community doesnt run it due to server crashing

[minor jungle]

That change made no sense to me when he did it

[opaque plover]

Ask terris he will confirm that

[lean tangle]

no idea

[opaque plover]

“Balance”

[minor jungle]

They are the same thing though

How does it balance anything

[opaque plover]

Idk a high schooler balanced it and oki went with it

I wish I was joking

[minor jungle]

What

[opaque plover]

Now you know why I think the feedback team is shit

[lean tangle]

you can limit certain guns to classes without removing them all

[minor jungle]

But why pdws

They do the same thing smgs do so why seperate

[lean tangle]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[minor jungle]

Who cares if medic gets pdws he already gets smgs

[opaque plover]

“Medic smg bad” or something like that

[minor jungle]

It changes nothing

[lean tangle]

do not spend too much time thinking about the game balance. Half of it is just dice roling

[opaque plover]

Even though it’s assault SMG now because medic got gimped and assault has more options

[minor jungle]

Doesn’t assault also get pdws

But medic only smgs

[opaque plover]

Yes

But realistically most only use mp7 and p90. Sometimes hb and pp2k will see use as well, but mainly the other two for big mag or high damage

[lean tangle]

no badger on medic

[minor jungle]

When/if they finally add the cbj-ms I wonder if it will have its irl armor piercing capabilities

I just use mp5

[opaque plover]

Even badger was puzzled by that I don’t think anyone used it due to mag size

It does good in 1v1 fights. Thats it. You often run out of ammo after the 2nd or 3rd guy gets killed

[minor jungle]

I think the only time I use badger is when it’s on weekly challenges

[lean tangle]

badger superiority

[lean tangle]

thats true its half mag per person. 1 on range

[opaque plover]

I mean I did use it occasionally but like I said, solely a “fighting sweaty players” gun

[lean tangle]

what does that make me

[minor jungle]

Will they fix sound in the overhaul? Not footstep sound I know they are fixing that I just mean the general awful sound the game has, like the humvee’s machine gun being almost silent or the shitty gun sounds for every gun

[opaque plover]

I mean like I said I used it too so but that’s the current state of it

[lean tangle]

sound is getting updated

[opaque plover]

Good at singling out targets… which on paper sounds cool but probably not what you want for a PDW

[lean tangle]

its my main gun tho

[cedar spindle]

Like i suggested just remove FRAG RPG

[lean tangle]

na

[cedar spindle]

I still doubt that it will receive any worthy buffs

[minor jungle]

Are they actually buffing anything in the update or just making all the fun stuff useless

[opaque plover]

Frag rpg slight buff. Support mega buffed for some reason

[lean tangle]

frag rpg is getting buffs (most likely)

[opaque plover]

And then we dont know anything about general rebalancing

[minor jungle]

Like c4 nades and drone nerfs

[minor jungle]

How is support buffed

[opaque plover]

Nades aren’t touched outside of indicator

[lean tangle]

no armor speed debuff anymore

[minor jungle]

Yeah that’s the nerf

It’s ok

But the drone nerf is the real issue

[opaque plover]

Leg shot removed, changed to raw helath. Supposedly slower to offset but yet to see it.

And better buildings

[minor jungle]

Wait what’s leg shot

[lean tangle]

leg did more dmg than torso

[opaque plover]

Shooting legs or arms bypasses armor

[minor jungle]

Oh

[cedar spindle]

Based on what i heard its gonna be just insignificant asf

[minor jungle]

How is that a support buff? Isnt that an all class buff

[lean tangle]

who knows

[opaque plover]

So people aim for legs because why would you waste half a mag on exo

[minor jungle]

Or did leg only do more damage to support

[lean tangle]

yes

[opaque plover]

Only support gets health buffs

But overall leg shots really only mattered against exo and heavy armor

Which support mostly uses

[cedar spindle]

We just know assault gets the least health and support gets the most

Doesnt really mean other classes wont have their health altered

[opaque plover]

I will remain skeptical

[minor jungle]

Won’t that fuck up weapon balance

Because each gun now has 4 ttks to remember

And such

[opaque plover]

He’s rebalancing weapons too but yeah

Half a second ttk average

[minor jungle]

I tend to stop firing when I know they are dead and if ttk is different on each class that’s gone

[minor jungle]

What’s the current one

[opaque plover]

.2/0.3 average

[lean tangle]

yeah we all know its stupid

[opaque plover]

Note that this accounts for leg shots in some situations

[cedar spindle]

Armor in BBR can be entirely bypassed by just shooting the area armor doesnt cover

This includes helmets as well

[minor jungle]

I like how bf6 does it for ttk

[opaque plover]

Easier to shoot legs than deal with tanky armor

[cedar spindle]

Yep

[minor jungle]

Ttk is pretty short but headshot multiplier is basically nonexistent for guns besides dmr and snipers and doesn’t affect ttk unless they are low health

[lean tangle]

[opaque plover]

Smart players will cover that weakness and usually aren’t affected by leg shots

[cedar spindle]

Hs multi is 1.5x

[opaque plover]

Its usually just bad players that dont build and w + m1 LMG (which… lmgs arent SMGs people lol)

[minor jungle]

Yeah

[cedar spindle]

If we want non existent hs multi, smgs and pistols has 1.2x multi

[minor jungle]

What if all guns besides snipers and dmr get 1.2

[cedar spindle]

Why aim for head atp

[minor jungle]

Exactly

Because dying instantly is bad

In most situations

[lean tangle]

can we yap in brr eng about general gun balance? this has nothing to do with class balance anymore and i want yap xp

[minor jungle]

Sure

[cedar spindle]

Im gonna go do more productive shit
Ive said what i wanted to say for the most part anyways

[lost prism]

Headshot mult~ oh wait that only applies to smgs

[lost prism]

The game with the same ttk?

excluding the fucked guns like ak205 and ultimax

[opaque plover]

Oki when “we don’t wanna be BF clone” is basically him doing what bf6 did, making support enticing vs everything else

[lost prism]

Bf6 support actually good to play unlike BBR medic and support

[cedar spindle]

BBR support more fun to play as than BBR medic

I feel like i give 10 times bigger contribution playing as support more than most of my hours playing as a medic

[ionic crystal]

Reviving key contributors can be a game changer.

[cedar spindle]

Idk man i be feeling like blocking half of the enemy team with nothing but sandbags and some antinades provides significantly more value
I can stall the whole team for 5-10 minutes, and provide about a 10 times safer space for revives and resupply as well

[opaque plover]

On paper, sure. In practice… what Palma said

You can effectively keep the team sustained with supplies, their own banadges, trophy systems with almost no downsides, and buildables that insta-build to max

Vs medic who just… shrugs off chip damage and brings a person back to life.

Any class can perform the 2nd task and the speed of revival doesn’t matter (bad revives will be punished regardless of speed). As for medkit, it is still effectively better to self heal.

Not even worth dropping the medkit either because it uses pre-self heal healing values (35 instead of 50), which is even slower.

[lost prism]

And yk

Needing to find the box