for the love of god, don't make ttk 300+ms.

[fading crater]

200-220(edited) is +- acceptable, but not higher. The current TTK is literally perfect — no other game except R6S, Insurgency, or Squad has it.

If people want higher TTK, they already have Battlefield, Warzone, Apex, the new CoDs, etc. You guys literally have a niche, where both skilled and casual players can have fun.

You’ll run into a lot of trouble balancing weapons — there will always be a meta gun that's so much better than the rest that there's almost no point in using anything else.

Any gadget or weapon designed to one-shot (frag grenades, bolt-action sniper rifles, etc.) will also cause major balancing issues.

With lower TTK, these problems are much less noticeable, because everything kills fast anyway.

My friends and I are having so much fun with this game mainly because of the TTK and the freedom to use almost any weapon we like. You just can’t get that anywhere else right now due to the lack of decent FPS games.

Thank you!

[snow owl]

I'm pretty sure most cods pre 2014 have the same or about what we have now

[brisk blade]

Honestly I get the concerns but the devs (Oki) are set on a slower ttk. We just have to wait and see how well they balance it to make one shots and stuff not be a problem.

[daring carbon]

Most CODs before the 2020 had sub 200ms TTK, with some exceptions

[snow owl]

I thought after ghosts it was 200 plus

because "people died to quickly"

we had a chart somewhere

[daring carbon]

This is really based on a quick search, heres an image putting it in more detail

[daring carbon]

In regards to this, if the teaser is anything to go by, it doesnt seem as bad as some are making it out to be
As far as 1 shot weapons go, some explosives are being nerfed (AoE, indicator etc.) and all weapons be rebalanced as well
Main reason for the TTK increase is that many complained that they died way too quickly (this is due to the combo of netcode and some weapona straight up having significantly faster TTK, especially with headshots that are easy to hit, making it look like you died in a literal blink of an eye, which for a casual audience isnt the most fun thing)

Like omagula said, we are yet to see any of it in proper action, and that it is going to happen no matter what

[fading crater]

Yeah, I meant the newer CoDs from around 2018 - like BO4, Cold War, and MW3. I probably miscalculated, and 300ms is too high. Personally, I really enjoy the TTK in CoD: mw2 2009. I grew up on it and would’ve kept playing it if it had any kind of support or at least some attention to the hacked servers.

[fading crater]

Balancing isn’t the only issue with high TTK.
High TTK mainly favors players with strong tracking aim (which is much harder than flick aim), while low TTK provides a better balance between both aiming styles.
It also doesn’t favor playing solo or making smart plays. For example, with low TTK, you can flank an enemy squad and, if you’re skilled, get 3 or more kills - you feel rewarded for your positioning and accuracy. You outsmarted them and exploited their lack of awareness.
With high TTK, even with good aim, you often can’t physically kill more than one player - even from behind - which makes those smart plays feel unrewarding.

[charred locust]

we'll have to see how it plays out

[daring carbon]

Thing is current issue with BBR is that solo too prevalent, partly due to low TTK
Besides high TTK favors a different kind of smart plays and teamwork, something which BBR tries to go for (but fails)

[nova isle]

High ttk can demand a higher skill in order to score kills. I experienced with The Finals and that game has a damn high ttk, which require a lot of tracking. Incredibly enough the shooting is fun and its cool to see yourself improving your skills because tracking is a very crucial part of aiming and can lead to entirely different direction in gameplay

To be honest 300ms is still pretty fast

You can try games with similar TTK to 300ms and see if it is that bad to you

If you dislike it, you can just stop playing this game

[fading crater]

i agree. but the finals is not a milsim and never designed to be one. it's demanding to your tracking aim, but not that demanding to flicking aim, which is not good - there should be balance, because a lot of people are having trouble tracking as much as many people having trouble flicking.
again: in order to score kills in high ttk enviorment, you are supposed to be with a team. you can't have decent solo experience most of the time, because you will need so much time to kill someone, that enemies around you will have time to react to you and start shooting.

[nova isle]

Erm, i never put into account being a milsim or not...

You can try arma reforger or squad if you are down bad for milsim

[fading crater]

if these changes will come to live - me and my friends probably will. we played a lot of high ttk games and they are not as fun as low ttk shooters.
rn i'm just trying to communicate and get my point of view to community and developers. they already made a very decent game and changing its core to the entierty will hurt some layer of players.

[nova isle]

Still considering 300ms as high is wild

[fading crater]

tried. they are too much team based.

[nova isle]

Milsim and being team based is a two lane field, you gotta have both to win wars, otherwise it isnt a true milsim

[fading crater]

I don't see that as a problem. A lot of games try to force players into teamplay — and they usually fail at it. Take Apex, for example: as far as I remember, there's no solo mode, and you can only queue as a trio. Solo players just end up trying to play their own game, but it doesn’t work — because the game expects them to stick with the team. Otherwise, they literally have no chance. And that’s a limitation — a restriction that suppresses your personal skill and understanding of the game.

You might be good at aiming because you have a lot of experience or spent a lot of time practicing. You might have great game sense because you’ve invested time and learned through experience. But the more the game emphasizes teamwork, the more it inevitably limits your personal skill.

No one enjoys losing when they did everything right — used their knowledge, their mechanical skill — but still got no reward, just because the game demands that you play with someone else.

Too many games try to do that. Too many games fail at it. And right now, there are very, very few games where you can go solo and not feel bad about it. That’s the real value of BBR — it’s old-school in a way: low TTK, no pressure to find a squad, no need to hunt for friends who are willing to play with you. You can get the full experience playing solo — and that’s something very few games manage to deliver these days.

[nova isle]

So you either only spawn at capped flags only or use teammates as mobile spawn beacons, fair enough.

[fading crater]

You don’t need to make players shoot each other for half a second just to achieve that.
In any team-based game — even the ones where it seems possible to win solo — teamwork is the main deciding factor. You could say CS manages to balance it to some extent. Insurgency: Sandstorm does it well. You can play solo, but coordination definitely increases your chances of winning.
Here’s my point: you’ll almost never get a large, wide audience to play exactly how you want them to. There will always be casual players in your game — people who just want to relax after work. Even Ukrainian Squad servers suffer from this — too many casuals join just to shoot stuff, not to engage in complex gameplay. R6S suffers from the same issue across all levels of ranked play.
Forcing teamwork is bad.
Encouraging teamwork — that’s respectable.

[nova isle]

So you want kovaaks with tenth of a second spray

While being multiplayer

Dont get it wrong, its just my way to describe it

[fading crater]

i didnt get what you meant :P

[nova isle]

Coop aim trainer with .1s spray and player model skin as targets

[fading crater]

oh. i guess? im just having fun shooting people in this game. Really tired of high ttk shooters.

[fading crater]

but thats a bit a rude way to describe that

[nova isle]

Just try more games to get a reference

I tried Delta Force and the TTK there is pretty close to what the devs want for BBR

[fading crater]

yeah i played delta. ttk there is pretty high

[nova isle]

I thought i would dislike it, but i didnt

[fading crater]

and i ran there into troubles i described earlier

[nova isle]

Its around 250ms avg

Anything too close to 100ms is an insta kill to players, and thats the feedback BBR received

250ms can be slow for you

[fading crater]

close to 200 is alright. 180-220 is okay. not higher

[nova isle]

But you are a small cut in the huge FPS playerbase, and id say that would be 1% of the players

You dont see casuals complaining on reddit or Discord

You only see the two 1% cut, which is high skill players and low skill players

[daring carbon]

As someone who played apex for a good while (admitedly i have very little experience with current day apex, but the core principle of it is still there), there is still a lot of room for skill expresion, even if you are in a team. It depends on legend per legend basis, so skill expression can vary depending on characters abilities and such. Higher TTK in apex works by with the existence of legend abilities, movement tech and map knowledge, and these can help you win even against a 3 man squad if you play your cards right in a pinch.
Higher TTK allows you to react and gives room to outsmart or escape a skirmish, which is a different kind of skill expression compared to lower TTK. It is different, but not inherently worse.
Even if you suck at fighting supporting your team properly is also another form of skill expression, and it isnt inherently worse, just different.
Currently solo play is simply too strong and too prevalent in BBR, that is supposed to be more akin to BF4, and the tools in BBR for some classes straight up suck.
TTK in BBR is a small part of the issue, but rather necessary to make slower to an extent.
Suggestions and advice arent always enough, ya gotta push people into a certain direction every once in a while.

I am not for strictly forcing teamwork either, but certain things have to change to give breathing room for casual players

[nova isle]

Usually low TTK games are filled with sweats

And sometimes very niche

[nova isle]

Saying forcing teamplay here is a stretch. You can barely have any organization with 127 players on each side

Its more like they are slowing down gameplay for the masses

[daring carbon]

That is correct, however something as basic as supplying ammo for the team, healing etc. has to be more prevalent

[nova isle]

Oh you said that

LMAO

I didnt read

[daring carbon]

Happens lmao

Still upcoming changes in movement will mostly affect the people that do airstrafes and shit mid match to dodge bullets, effect on the masses should be minimal

[nova isle]

Id completely remove airstrafe

Focus the game solely on positioning and aiming

[daring carbon]

Will 300-400ms TTK actually work, idk, but from what i understood so far if it doesnt suit the game they will be supceptible on changing it

And based on the teaser footage it genuently doesnt look that bad

[nova isle]

The game is still in EA, a lot can happen

[daring carbon]

Yep

[fading crater]

"Higher TTK allows you to react and gives room to outsmart or escape a skirmish, which is a different kind of skill expression compared to lower TTK. It is different, but not inherently worse."
You're right. And as a result, flanking loses a lot of its value — players have way more time to react, which makes those plays much less effective.
Again, I’m not against these kinds of shooters. It’s nice to have a couple of them to jump into from time to time.
But when a huge portion of shooters nowadays are moving in the same direction as BBR — slower movement, higher TTK, heavy focus on teamwork and suppressing solo play — then two big questions come up:
First — why do we need BBR at all, if it's becoming just like all the others?
Second — where are the games for people who enjoy low TTK? Insurgency is dead, Squad is not fun, R6S is bad in it's current state. Basically we have BF1 and old CoDs. That's it. There are literally no games like current BBR rn.

[nova isle]

Thats where you get cornered, you dont have games to challenge you because you (" i supposed you are top 1% player ") are too fast for the gameplay

Other people are just slower, and thats normal

You have more people in the slow cut

Way more than you believe

You complain about niche games being niche to dead, then i welcome you to the real world

[wind yoke]

https://discord.com/channels/303681520202285057/1254463897851920445
https://discord.com/channels/303681520202285057/1254364480326864906
https://discord.com/channels/303681520202285057/1235498332386754561

The ttk is increasing, this has been argued many many times before and the ttk is still changing.

[nova isle]

https://tenor.com/view/hang-first-time-smiles-gif-14991372

[fading crater]

BBR wasn’t dead at launch - the reason it died was poor communication and lack of updates, not low TTK.
I'm not even a good player. My best competitive FPS result is CS2 Premier at 20k, and I was always at lowtab because of weak mechanics.
BF1, which has one of the lowest TTKs out there, is still the second most popular Battlefield game btw.
I'm not here to argue with you, that I'm “too skilled” for the game. I’m here to share with the developers why I personally think increasing TTK is a bad idea - and I believe my reasons are valid.
It's up to the developers to decide what direction they want to take.

[wind yoke]

They are changing the ttk, that is the direction that has been chosen.

[fading crater]

Weren’t they also making a hardcore mode?

[wind yoke]

That is still listed for THE FUTURE to my knowledge.

[pulsar spire]

I can say even more, Bf1 has 60% HP servers and they're quite popular. Despite that modification makes sniper rifles work as a hitscan.

[nova isle]

Im pretty sure everyone came for a massive war shooter, not expecting a low TTK because thats not advertised

Anyway, you can argue all day but this kind of gameplay is still niche and always will be

But a few more players to fill servers would be good after the update

[daring carbon]

Doesnt BF1 have higher TTK than BF4 and BF3 as well

Sure felt like it when i tried it out briefly

[charred locust]

I came because of low ttk

and personally I think bbr will get big issues if they increase the ttk further but we will have to wait and test it

[nova isle]

Hello 1%

Okay, i put "everyone" but its a wrongful statement

A lot of people came because its a massive shooter

There we go

[charred locust]

true

[nova isle]

The massive shooter needs a fresh restart

Then we can get our own conclusions about it

[next crater]

I do like how you can use virtually any weapon and do well with it thanks to the TTK.

I'm more worried about the mid range gunfights and if they are going to turn into two people firing BB pellets at each other.

I'm wondering how they will balance the Battle Rifles, might be the move if they stay relatively strong

[uneven sapphire]

I think ur wrong here somewhat since we won't know until we actually play , but the TTK change is not just TTK change and done. When adding up all other changes and then u think about TTK 300ms might just be in gold spot.
And by meaning other changes (there is more but i will add some)

Movement --> Generally everyone will be slower, i expect everyone will be at same speed and sniper or medic slightly faster even with fastest build
What that means u will able to kill far more easily running or vaulting person (No more drop shotting or zig zaging either still expecting some bs strat , but it will be gone mostly i assume

Zoom - 3x-4x zooms on rifles will be actually usable now , so lot of ppl will able to shoot much further away than currently so it's a good thing that u won't be killed in 1-3 shots from 50m away lol
And that's good thing because first 4x zooms are not usable without getting seizures , and second this will make for casuals easier to kill enemy from medium-long distance. Cuz rn it only benefits skilled players that can tap or control aim a casual player can't even see enemy 30m away and when they need to shoot with 1x laser they can't see a thing cuz their red dot is covering that one pixel , and 4x zooms are unusable even tapping is hard , so the change with ttk is huge here

Well and then there is health , classes having different hp types etc etc

[fading crater]

basically bbr is semi-moba now, because of different health values of each classes lol.
i was the same opinion as you regards to medium range optics on rifles. but recently i came back to the game and tapping on battle rifles now feels satisfying for some reason.
it's partly depends on luck, so does spraying, but it kinda creates balance while shooting on medium distances.
because if i want consistency on those ranges, i should pick dmr/sr. if i want to be superior in close range i pick smgs. if i want a little bit of both - i pick rifles if i'm willing to be somewhat vialable on different ranges.
tbh in current state only smgs should be nerfed by giving them higher dmg drop-off. in other aspects, bbr is really well-balanced - thanks too low ttk.
most of the times if i kill someone by tapping in 4x, people just stand there in the open, or casually walking across an empty street. most of the times they have time to heal after my first shot and start shooting back.

being shot from 50m away by 1 shot is rare, 3 shots is okay, because if i let myself be shot 3 times, that means i chose a really bad spot to be in and thats a misplay. i have an option to build something almost anytime and thats really something that many people not doing while being poorly positioned.

[snow owl]

SMG damage drop off is currently at 10 meters. you want it to be Less?

[fading crater]

i mean, youre somewhat right when saying that looking only at ttk increase is wrong, but ttk is not really that tricky and different games share similar aspects. You can easly differentiate every shooter by first looking at it's ttk, and only then checking what mechanics it provides. what i'm saying is that for example in almost every low ttk shooter i cant run in the open street reliably, thinking that i'm almost 100% will be alive when i cross it. in high ttk games i can to it much more consistently. or, again, as i stated several times in this post, it's much harder for people who enjoy flanking enemy squad backs and benefit from it if it takes more time to kill someone.

[fading crater]

kinda feels a bit tricky to play against smgs, but it's not that they are too powerful

it's usually complicated to perfectly balance them in those type of games so i can live with that

[daring carbon]

Thing is, this is a game with 254 players and low TTK
Its fine in something like BF4 because i have breathing room due to less players, in BBR with double the amount it just dont work as well
This doesnt mention the 30 other things that will also affect gameplay alongside it

[uneven sapphire]

Well tapping and spraying full mag are diff things tho. If not mistaken almost there are few exceptions every weapon can tap , but controlling it is different. In this game controlling full auto with 4x scope is seizuring process , while some weapons do have minimal wobble it still is bad to the point that u don't want to use it.
Increasing ability to shoot further cuz now 4x scopes will be far more usable maybe not 50m but prob going from 10m to 20m at least on avr , but if u would leave low TTK with such change ppl will die far more often and will be killed from long distances easier which is bad for casuals --> To combat that increase of TTK is one of good reasons to do it.

U have to keep in mind that most of the people are average casuals. The moment they die for no reason from medium distances , when they don't know where they coming from they going to get mad and leave. They wanted to use 4x scope ? dafuk is that seizure wobble ?? how can u aim with this i don't want to tap this and with 1x i can't see more than 15m , so i have to play sniper... that's current/was mentality.

Well medium distance is only few parts of new TTK changes that makes sense to increase , but TTK increase for close range and far range is also important and close range has it's issues like dying far too quickly even with let's say 100ms increase. It still would be fast to die, and that might increase casual player reaction time slightly , but not for everyone , increasing TTK to the point where even slower casuals can react and process info would be best choice and i think that's what oki is doing.

[daring carbon]

Worth noting that BRs are essentially a bridge between ARs and DMRs, so tapping with them is viable under some circumstances if you want to switch things up a bit

That being said, while mid range scope visual recoil is being tweaked, a very valid possibility that jtrap brought up is that mid range gunfights may turn into shooting BBs

They have mentioned that damage falloff will be harsher as well, but we have absolutely nothing to go over anything specific

Will it be genuently harsh or not is yet to be seen

[frosty bloom]

why we even here they wont listen

[nova isle]

[next crater]

Pshhh probs won't listen to you because you a massive noob but I have over a 4KD so Oki's adding my comments to the agenda for the next Dev meeting

[primal kiln]

I mean generally speaking just equip a bipod or vert grip but otherwise you have a point in regards to the useability of 3x/4x scopes that aren’t attached to dmrs or bolts

[nova isle]

Zamn

[primal kiln]

And zig zag will still be a thing iirc

[nova isle]

Zig zag will just be a lil different

[primal kiln]

They mainly just wanna kill the “run around in a circle” (aka 360ing)

[nova isle]

The sudden 180

[primal kiln]

Yeah zig zag wont be outright killed, and if anything I’d argue its good for the game

[nova isle]

U turn

[nova isle]

Imo, Air strafe should be removed anyway

[primal kiln]

Unsure on 180 turns because iirc they mentioned changing it again

[nova isle]

[primal kiln]

Air strafe was never the issue imo, and most didn’t complain about it when we’re referencing “cheap stuff”

There were servers with air strafe off, and they never filled. That’s how weird bbr feels without it currently

[nova isle]

Well, its totally personal taste

Its changes the game dynamic

[primal kiln]

Perhaps, but you could clearly see some aspects of the game were built around it in this version

Especially if we’re talking about the parkour aspect of the game

[daring carbon]

Will be nerfed sort of, apparenly the faster you move your mouse the harsher the inertia will be or sum

[primal kiln]

Which is what stops the “360ing”

(Supposedly anyways)

Zig zagging will still be possible and if anything “just lower sens/use keyboard look binds” will be a thing

which reddit will also probably complain about

[nova isle]

That should be helpful for rookies hitting targets

[frosty bloom]

[nova isle]

More people enjoying shooting

[nova isle]

I know its a shit take

[primal kiln]

Bad players are still gonna be bad, good ones will find new thinngs

[nova isle]

[frosty bloom]

or just

[daring carbon]

On this, i did play one of them, dear god it felt ATROCIOUS

[frosty bloom]

ego chal

[primal kiln]

Like im sorry but if you cant aim you can’t aim that’s just the truth movement or not

Hit the kovvaks brother

[frosty bloom]

go away

[daring carbon]

If you jumped in that airstrafeless server you better fucking commit to that jump otherwise you were fucked

[primal kiln]

Mfer I will gift you kovvaks

If its on sale

[daring carbon]

Either way last i heard 180s will be tied to how fast you turn (sorta similar with zig zags)

[primal kiln]

my lawyer advised me to say this is a joke

[daring carbon]

Doesnt sound too bad imo im fine with it

[frosty bloom]

why are you telling me that

[primal kiln]

[daring carbon]

Places some limitations, but doesnt screw over the non issue stuff

Besides we are still getting those cracked ass vault speed and theres defo gonna be some goofy shit regarding that

[frosty bloom]

[primal kiln]

fair enough

Now lets see reddit do it after ttk changes

[frosty bloom]

better idea

just go play uma

better than whatever the mcfuck is coming

[next crater]

We just have to have faith that the Devs know what they are doing!!

But we also have to have patience

We don't want to rush them