Collateral damage

[steady brook]

Collateral dmg on guns
Less dmg ass bullet passes through players
Different scalings on submachine guns, snipers, ars etc

Collateral damage

[woven reef]

The amount of further combat fuckery that would introduce would be, insane.

[paper galleon]

would just punish blobs

[torn steppe]

We have the wide assortment of explosives for that

[paper galleon]

not really cause of cap

this would help defenders a bit, but not change the game nearly as much as you are thinking

[rotund ermine]

i would love this

[paper galleon]

we kinda have a pseudo version of this with ragdolls, i.e dead people, don't take bullets anymore. having it be official won't change much but would make combat feel alot better

[torn steppe]

Use more

[paper galleon]

still not really lol

[torn steppe]

Shit dont fit battlebit even

Too much possible fuckery

And just why?

[paper galleon]

it literaslly would not change much lol

ragdolls already do nothing to bullets anymore

remember when everyone was complaining that we couldn't shoot through players to hit people behind?

it would not add anymore fuckery beyond ragdolls not existing except to block vision.

and why? because it is a change that would make combat feel better, and not actually drastically change what we already have

[woven reef]

At its core you are introducing ANOTHER situational variance in a game that is already overloaded with variables given its player count, map design, and small reaction window.

You also introduce anoher element that requires substantial balance and time dedicated to it, for in your own words "not actually drastically change"

So double fuck no

[paper galleon]

"substantial balance"

lol

because penetration is a massive change

[woven reef]

Every gun has to have a pen amount and damage applied to it, a seconary set of damage fall off has to exist.

In the design space, you then need to think about that element as it comes to weapon capacity and values.

[paper galleon]

or, you have a flat board based on total damage

or limit it to one enemy

so 2 targets max

some do 5

you don't really need COD levels of collat

10% pen damage to 1 target would be a decent catch all

[woven reef]

I will rest easy knowing there isnt going to be bullet penetration added

Why?

[paper galleon]

ah yes the "planned" feature

is not going to be added

right

[woven reef]

I say that because its fucking stupid given the player counts and design limits we've seen

For the tangible benefit of "not much"

[paper galleon]

lol

QoL change "its bad because reasons"

the maps are not tight enough for it to be a problem

[woven reef]

[paper galleon]

barring tunnels and the few chokes on other maps

so again, why not lol? beyond your reasoning that it would somehow break the game?

[woven reef]

My reason is, it adds an additional element of "how did i just die?" to a game that struggles with that substantially. If you apply any sort of limited damage value like in the single digits, you arent going to impact and bullet to kill break points. If you do make the damage substantial enough, gun balance gets that extra layer of fucker added to it. The only thing I see it adding is, you get a random extra kill because people happen to be in a line.

Theres a LOT of weapons active at one time and a LOT of sight lines. Its not an absolute, but its the additional introduction of an element for the sake of "fuck it bullets go through people right?"

[paper galleon]

the point is able to put damage into a zerg rush for defenders, which is likely the few times this would help or even come into play beyond running up to a blob of medics. its not meant to kill, it makes the "rush through door at same time" a less effective stratagy

[manic lion]

And their point is..
this feature requires a LOT of time and the margin of improvement is minimal or even null

[paper galleon]

if it takes a long time thats because of bad code

[woven reef]

[paper galleon]

if done correctly on unity, its literally a check box

max target = x

right now its 1.

so unless the code is so poorly done that a checkbox change would fuck up everything, it would be easy to impliment, because ideally its to 1 or 2 extra targets, for a flat amount of damage.

don't even need to change it for everygun, hell add it only to some classes of guns if that would make it easier

[manic lion]

think about balancing each gun, then you will understand why would take time

[paper galleon]

flat damage + 1 target

boom

balanced for each gun.

[woven reef]

I was promised a checkbox

[paper galleon]

take away from SMGs if you are scared of HRoF

[paper galleon]

literally what it is for penetration of characters.

it just continues the ray until it hits the max amount of targets.

[woven reef]

The point of my comments is that the design work and context of battlebit, i do not believe aligns itself to having any value in the game that battlebit is.

Thats it. it doesnt matter if you say oh well do smgs or a flat number or, whatever. The fundamental design idea behind it, I dont think has a place.

I hope that makes sense

[manic lion]

sure, try that "balancing method" with scenarios like PP vs ultimax, it would require custom dmg for each player after penetration

[paper galleon]

1 target extra

[woven reef]

You want the bullet to do full damage?

[paper galleon]

I don't need nor want that fuckfest

what

I was saying the dude right behind a guy gets a flat rate of damage, say 5 hp.

and no more than that

the calcs for hitting 20+ people would be astronomical

[woven reef]

So the m2000 does 5 damage, and the pp19 does 5 damage?

[paper galleon]

for penetration

[torn steppe]

Blimey you are dense as shit
Its one thing when its a corpse that isnt an active combatant that blocks bullets, and another when a living one does
Because its a fucking videogame
Not being able to shoot thru them was bullshit

[woven reef]

Palma just drop kicking the door down

[torn steppe]

Again, why add this?

We literally have explosives

[paper galleon]

again, why not?

all your issues are with "shoot everyone in line"

[woven reef]

Thats, so, far from the issue i have described

[paper galleon]

not 1 dude right behind first dude

[woven reef]

"do this because"
"thats a lot of extra work for no real pay off"
"yes, and?"
has been this discussion so far

[torn steppe]

It either adds bullshit or it adds absolutely nothing and is a complete waste of time that does not even fit the arcadey nature of BBR

[paper galleon]

as for specfiic weapons. Honestly thinking if added it should be an LMG or at least Rifle thing. SMGs and snipers don't need it because its not really meant for them.

[paper galleon]

its not a lot of extra work though lol

hence why that point is moot

[woven reef]

My reason is, it adds an additional element of "how did i just die?" to a game that struggles with that substantially. If you apply any sort of limited damage value like in the single digits, you arent going to impact and bullet to kill break points. If you do make the damage substantial enough, gun balance gets that extra layer of fucker added to it. The only thing I see it adding is, you get a random extra kill because people happen to be in a line.

Now, your turn. Why does it make the game more enjoyable

[paper galleon]

helping defenders, and 5 hp is a pretty good amount of HP for damage since all the damage is going down. like thats 20% of (future) m4 damage.

[torn steppe]

It helps the attackers

Why do you think blanksp immediatellyy liked the idea

[woven reef]

[paper galleon]

much more rarely, but not often at all either way

[torn steppe]

Man just go play gray zone or some bullshit

[paper galleon]

there are very few scenarios beyond defending that would allow attackers to take advantage

[manic lion]

quite the opposite, defender protects specific locations while attacks come from "random" places, so.. easier to attack

[paper galleon]

it only helps if people are in a line.

its not like its shooting through walls (which is still being looked at)

[woven reef]

players should stick together less, yes perfect

[woven reef]

Wall banging is being looked at, in bbr?

[torn steppe]

And a lot of them will be because thats how defenders function

[paper galleon]

in each others asses? that's a good thing they seperate a bit.

[paper galleon]

yep.

haven't heard anything beyond that though

[woven reef]

Oh you going to need to drop a citation for that one

[paper galleon]

Vil said they were looking into it when they started looking at buildings again (map side I mean)

[woven reef]

A line has no inherent length associated with it.

So the goal is to help defenders, and to achieve that, you want to do more damage to people who are in a line

And that makes.. defending better and more fun?

[paper galleon]

I mean I guess? the 1 extra ray would take care of that pretty much everywhere unless you are shooting up to abackdrop of the sky

[woven reef]

Ok so you can do, an amount of damage, to two people, in some distance

And as a defender, this, makes it more fun?

Easier?

Whats the goal

[paper galleon]

it makes holding a choke/door/window better. since right now you just zerg rush though the same point as an attacker against basically anyone and even with all your models combined into one one one maybe 2 guys bite it. which is one of the more prevelant reasons defenders can't last long against an attack of more than single squad.

[woven reef]

why is it better?

[paper galleon]

the idea is that rushing through the same point at once is currently rewarding attackers

[torn steppe]

It only helps... when in a tunnel?

[woven reef]

How does it reward them?

[paper galleon]

doors and windows? entrances?

[woven reef]

I promise im not just being smarmy, im trying to understand the perspective and desire

I do want to come back to "which is one of the more prevelant reasons defenders can't last long against an attack of more than single squad." this

[manic lion]

not really, you already hold the angle, the attacker doesnt know where you are, his only option.. c4/grenade, chances are 50/50

[torn steppe]

Or rpg

[paper galleon]

its rewarded becasue the defender can only shoot the first guy, has to get through him and the like, and the others are free and clear

now this is less so in smaller numbers on the attacking side, and larger on the defending (which is rare)

[woven reef]

and in this hypothetical, what happens when you have an equal number of defenders and attackers.

[torn steppe]

Or the attacker flanks you

[paper galleon]

which is a fair response

[woven reef]

The problem with arguing the hypothetical scenarios is you have to account for both extremes. There IS a scenario where this reduces the challenge in defense, or attacking GREATLY.

[manic lion]

defender can build inside or "reform" the building to push/defend?

[paper galleon]

It should be discouraged to just rush the "front door" as it were, and attack from more angles

its hard to explain once you add building but the entrences are still there, its just player built ones

[woven reef]

The thing I am after is, what does it do for the player experience? Why would I be excited to have this, what problem am i eliminating. Is it the frustration of not having enough teammates to defend? is it the irritation from known sight lines.

[paper galleon]

less attackers don't have the HP, more defenders kill faster.

[torn steppe]

What about smokes

[paper galleon]

might be those last two. not many options even when building

[torn steppe]

Cant kill shit well if you cant see shit well

[paper galleon]

I mean if they work? they are easily abusable if you know where the center is

smokes do help, but inside the smoke, just angler yourself a bit to the side of the center of the smoke and the PNG will be off to your side, allwoing you to see throuhg most of the smoke

[woven reef]

Ok, so, if you are after a specific player pain point, START with that, and work backwards. Instead of having an idea, and attempting to relate it. What design changes can be made, to have it less frustrating to defend X vs X+1?

[torn steppe]

But its like to the side
That doesnt help defenders

[woven reef]

Then you have to answer a million more questions about why you want to do that, and what it does, and figure out how much work it is, then actually make it. aaand i am firmly still cant see how bullet pen helps

[paper galleon]

depends who throws it and where it lands, but smoke is smoke.

[torn steppe]

Yeah but when you multiple people are attacking you dont have time as a defender to just glace to the side every now and then to see where the fuck an enemy is
And what if there are multiple?

[manic lion]

those are bugged, client-side smoke are so random.. some people can see through some other cant see anything (when they should)

[torn steppe]

This is assuming the scenario where they arent broken

[woven reef]

You as the thrower will always see a full smoke. Any other player will see generally 1 of three different smoke states . Tl;dr yeah they broke

[paper galleon]

step one: spawn on contested points instead of neutering defense

[paper galleon]

I think it could. it should be easy to test.

honestly if it was tested (has oki ever used the Tester role?) I would like to see if it works or is shit

[woven reef]

I totally agree with this.

He has not used it no

[paper galleon]

on paper, should work and I can bark that all day

in actuality, might not

I just want ideas tested

[woven reef]

It could be designed into the game, im confident theres not a technical limit to something like that. I dont feel the resolution addresses an existing painpoint in a healthy enough manner.

Treating a symptom of a deeper issue

[paper galleon]

it might tho

though yeah

[brittle karma]

Sorry what do you think the actual benefit of bullet pen is? This thread is super long and I'm confused

[paper galleon]

deeper issue of Oki hating defenders

[manic lion]

long-story short, nothing

[torn steppe]

"Helps" defenders

[woven reef]

Uhh i think we are finally digging to what the root problem is omegula

[torn steppe]

According to devildogg

[woven reef]

Which is defense feels like a struggle

[paper galleon]

was thinking able to hold points a tad better, to deal with zerg rushes.

yeah that is kinda the main point

[torn steppe]

How about you let people build on cap points first

[paper galleon]

better to have a spawner away from point and just retake than defend

[torn steppe]

That would help nicely

[woven reef]

And that devil dogg. I can totally agree with, defense is in a miserable state due to, well many things, but i dont think bullet pen solves any of them

[paper galleon]

its spawn points not cap points

[woven reef]

ehh fuck yo building, make the points less shit to defend naturally

[brittle karma]

I don't understand how bullet pen would help firing at a single target but hey that's just me

[paper galleon]

but oki has a refusal to use anything but Spheres.

[paper galleon]

if he has a friend behind him rushing the same door

ideally anyway

I just want it tested and looked at, because defending sucks

[torn steppe]

Id rather do it myself, thanks

[woven reef]

Instead of changing how "one versus many" works, make it so its easier to work as a team

Which has to be addressed via the spawn system

[paper galleon]

can't spawn, can't build near "spawn points", only single spawn points on caps

and so on

[manic lion]

How you defend considering the scenario you are thinking? (holding door/window...)

[paper galleon]

can't spawn contessted and that means squad spawn is probobly off too

[torn steppe]

Its a cap point on which you can spawn
Its either really

Point stands

[paper galleon]

fair

[torn steppe]

Let me build on them

[woven reef]

aight so collat damage bad, defending broken, defending needs work?

[paper galleon]

I guess? still think collat should be tested. see how much it takes and if it sucks.

[woven reef]

Fair enough 🫡

[paper galleon]

I'd take at least a test of an idea at this point

and get rid of the the damn LoS spawn blocker

[torn steppe]

We should make it work first

[brittle karma]

I get the feeling your problem with defending is a positioning problem (skill issue)

[torn steppe]

Then change stuff about it

[manic lion]

x2

[torn steppe]

Just give building on cap points back please

[paper galleon]

not really, because if you position as a defender you will lose pretty readily as it is. for many a reason.

[torn steppe]

I blame not being able to hit the twat zig zagging mid air while they deploy smokes

In short, partial skill issue

[brittle karma]

I seem to recall custard(really good player) grinding gold m249 by solely pocking a position to defend and defending it. He did pretty well so yeah I think it is a positioning problem

[paper galleon]

posistion to defened, or posistioning. those are different things

[brittle karma]

???????????????

[torn steppe]

You can position yourself on a position of defence to get greater results is what he meant

And he aint wrong

Support heavily relies on good positioning, especially when defending

[iron pilot]

Velocity issue

[steady brook]

Add collat dmg

[torn steppe]

No

[brittle karma]

No

[flint siren]

no

[hasty hornet]

no