Fall-off rework needs some consideration in the SMG department

[wispy cedar]

With the fall-off rework coming together with the rest of the weapon related reworks (damage, recoil (Scope) and velocity) we've so far seen only values of 2 weapons.
The M4A1 and The Kriss Vectors fall-offs have been shown on previous devcasts 1-2 months ago.

M4A1 fall-off looks fine (It is not bad)
+Fall-off seems curve seems good enough for a Carbine rifle
+Long fall-off means bullets won't suddenly do 0 damage once you go past 20 meters

Kriss Vector fall-off on the other hand looks horrible (It is bad)
+The Vector is now clearly bad at range
-The Vectors killing potential worsens SIGNIFICANTLY in 7.5m - 30m range, which is an extremely short distance to have your weapon to fall-off even if it is just an SMG
-The Vector turns into a hitmarker generator rather than a gun

Please consider NOT crippling the Vector

Graphs and a picture included under

Graphs of Fall-off curves and their implications (Main focus is the Vector)

What 30 meters looks like in-game on a map. At 30 meters, your BTK has (doubled + 1) from 6 to 13.

[mellow ibex]

I don't think it'd be unfair to speculate that the other SMGs and PDWs will have similar though likely not identical damage falloffs. Falling off to half damage at 25m is absurd. That damage continues to falloff beyond that is also absurd. Also 1.2 HS multiplier on top of it all.

[wispy cedar]

Classes which are going to have 100 HP will be impossible to kill with only body shots beyond 100 meters

Considering the vector is a weapon, it sounds ridiculous that it cannot even kill at 100m no matter how well you hit your mag to the body

[mellow ibex]

The way I see it is that it's already not particularly difficult to keep distance between you and the opponent. As a primary AR user, this is already a strategy to deal with SMGs. All the maps do not have the tight CQB where this damage falloff could potentially make sense. With headshot multipliers being the same, m4 kills (marginally) faster than the vector with headshots at any distance and has to hit 1 fewer shot to do so. But at least you get 1.03 run speed idk

[drowsy wren]

While SMGs shouldn't be effective at long distances (looking at pre nerf vector) it also shouldnt take like 2 mags for SMGs to kill a man at 100m

In my eyes at least, falloff should start around 25 or 30 meters and then start dropping at a relativily similar rate as depicted in the chart

[sweet oar]

https://tenor.com/view/jojo-bizar-adventure-jotaro-kujo-gif-22968904

[wispy cedar]

Issue is that unless you are actively teleporting to lower the distance between you and your enemy, your TTK will sky rocket in a distance that doesn't make sense with map sizes and scale in mind.

Your TTK is bound to be 500-800ms in actual fighting unless you are camping a doorway which makes the vector unfun to use.

[mellow ibex]

new equipment idea: Blink Dagger

[quartz jungle]

agree

[quartz jungle]

I think high falloff or low headshot multiplier would be fine, but not both.

its never fun being ineffective

[mellow ibex]

Personally not the biggest fan of drastic falloff because it makes the guns feel so inconsistent to me. Like with the vector rework a couple meters is the difference between multiple different BTKs. The ranges where falloff is happening is like the hot zone of where you'd be fighting with the weapon. I'll live with headshot multiplier being what it is in this game. I'm sort of moved by the hitbox size argument.

[quartz jungle]

maybe just linear dmg falloff might be better for some weapons

[waxen bolt]

If it falls off to that, just means ARs take over the place of SMGs (one problem traded for another)

Also yeah its as oxi said, who the fuck unironically enjoys camping/turtling with an SMG, even more so when supports generally the better defensive class for that playstyle?

[mellow ibex]

Something I noticed about the new maps/reworks is that there seems to be much more cover density. Vil even made a suggestion thread for cover ideas a bit back. With that in mind it might make SMG gameplay with this falloff more viable because you can actually get within the effective range of the gun safely. But without changing every map already in the pool this probably makes SMGs a very unappealing option for the existing maps. There are far too many open areas with long sightlines and ARs will as you've said reign supreme. It does though slow the game down since you don't get bonus movespeed from those weps and they're generally slower to handle. I just feel like this could be accomplished in a different way than making the gun(s) so unpleasant to use

[wispy cedar]

Its not even mid range, its literally distance further than in your face where the vector loses all of its value

[mellow ibex]

As valid as it is to compare to other games, there are games where specifically the vector has this level of falloff/effective range and it somehow is a usable weapon in those games. What oki's really doing here is telling all the SMG medic sweats to really prove their skill by giving them the highest skill ceiling weapon in the game. It's big brained actually

[wary swift]

Which games are that

[mellow ibex]

xdefiant and warzone. 😏 I'm not being entirely serious with that point though.

[fast sluice]

what game requires 16 fucking bullets to kills somebody at 50m?

[fast sluice]

ah

[drowsy wren]

Apex

[fast sluice]

ye probably apex

[drowsy wren]

For like 90% of the time you have to mag dump an enemy to kill em in apex

No matter the distance

[wary swift]

Even in xdefiant falloff capped at a sane ammount

[drowsy wren]

Dont like compare it to xdefiant and cod ffs

Vastly different games

[mellow ibex]

Yeah but all damage falloff means is that the gun has an effective range where it is meant to be used. Like you just don't engage at ranges beyond like 20m because you're 100% gonna lose unless you're also up against the same gun. So you cut the distance with movement. The damage could go to zero at literally 30m with the new damage model and I don't think it would change 99% of how they want the gun to be used.

[fast sluice]

https://tenor.com/view/vomit-vomiting-gif-17865429

bro what

[wary swift]

But its not zero in your examples, there is ZERO games with a falloff like that and for good reason

[fast sluice]

nah

[mellow ibex]

The good reason is that the developers of those games want players to use those weapons. That doesn't seem to be the case here

[wary swift]

Lmao cant argue with that

[quartz jungle]

I think falloff needs to be longer, not shorter for most weapons.
One of the thing that makes bbr unique from other games is the large maps and large servers, I think being limited to close range kinda wastes this potential

[severe narwhal]

people want guns to be peashooters at range because they want guns to be useful only in cqb. we had longer falloff for everthing, falloff that was tied to each weapon, but people hated it because they didn't like having to change their close range playstyle around

[lapis shale]

Thank oki for that one

Too many angles my beloved excuse

[mellow ibex]

Damage falloff is also happening because we're getting less recoil when ADS and medium scopes are apparently reworked to have less visual recoil. So because it's going to be easier to just full auto people at longer distances we get damage falloff to compensate. Bleh

[lapis shale]

Looks at the other bullshit visual changes

Guns getting more visual smoke than mw2022

[severe narwhal]

would rather falloff start happening after a weapons effective range than whatever this bulsshit is looking like

[mellow ibex]

by removing the short range option of SMGs by nerfing them into oblivion and making it easier to shoot a long distances (though not as lethal) players are going to take up more medium/long range engagements. even though the objective of almost every game mode is to attack/defend a 30m radius circle. idk the logic

[severe narwhal]

they already do that. this is not gonna change much.

because weapons are actually somewhat effective within 300 meters if they are carbines, rifles and LMGs. BRs and dmrs are effective a little further out to like 500 iirc.

right now most guns do operate in a niche, its just that capture zones/ objectives are so fucking small you tend to notice the CQB weapons more often than not, not to mention running into an enemy line is the way majority play nowadays

[wispy cedar]

"somewhat" is carrying tht sentence harda

[severe narwhal]

most rifles and carbine can fight it out at that distance currently

[wispy cedar]

300m is a lot of distance

[severe narwhal]

not gonna beat a sniper or dmr

but ranged out they can kills in 4

[mellow ibex]

I think I have like fewer than 20 kills beyond 200m with any carbine, rifle, or LMG. It's just not worth it to shoot at that distance other than to apply some chip damage on a sniper so you can move around

[severe narwhal]

if you setup properly you can get some kills on people rushing a point at that distance, ranged out all you need to do is learn how to lead a bit more than usual, hell its how I got most of my AR kills

[mellow ibex]

not that these changes address that in any way.

[severe narwhal]

it takes like 1 extra bullet most times, maybe two.

they do

because now the carbine range is gonna be love tapping people at 100

[mellow ibex]

Well I meant by making it more viable lol

[severe narwhal]

yeah, its making us all chose cqb weapons

because why chose anything else, if nothing is better than a couple weapons within 80 meters

[lapis shale]

[plain sundial]

Fuck vector meta

[lapis shale]

😭

[waxen bolt]

Vector hasn’t been “meta” since its first nerf

Still used and can be strong sure but if you really care about meta you’re rocking other guns

[plush flower]

Do people not remember ASVal meta?
Drum mag scar meta?
Vector meta was really nothing

[lapis shale]

no armor engi val

🔥

[fallen jolt]

Why tf you using a vector at 100m

[wispy cedar]

Because you can see an enemy 100meters away?

It is pretty common to just shoot at targets regardless of distance if you can see them. But the fact that it is impossible to kill someone with a gun (regardless of it's type) at 100m using your entire mag is just funny

[fallen jolt]

I mean those are definitely words you're saying right now

[wispy cedar]

Indeed words are being used

[fallen jolt]

100m do be feeling way more AR territory

[wispy cedar]

100m is definitely territory where AR would shine, but the fact that it isn't even possible to kill something using 33 bullets is just funny

[fallen jolt]

shoot at targets regardless of distance if you can see them

Sorry but this sounds like minimum effort playstyle and not something that should be used as a baseline for balance

I think SMG/pdws should shred anyone <20m, be strong to 50m, be mildly effective to 75m, and fall off hard at 100m

They should be better than an AR <50m

(Not as an absolute mind you, just as a general rule)

[mellow ibex]

That would be great. Hope that's what actually comes in the patch.

[fallen jolt]

ARs should be "ok" <50m, strong 50-100m, less effective 200m, fall off 300m

BRs in a similar vein

Basically overlapping zones of effectiveness

[wispy cedar]

Yeah 100m is still something you'd shoot at with a 1x

Targets are still a lot smaller, but that alone already makes it difficult to kill someone currently at those distances

No fall-off tweaks needed, just distance with a mix of recoil makes it hard enough to kill someone

But with the fall-off tweaks it will be impossible to kill someone at 100m with a mag even IF you somehow are an FPS god

[mellow ibex]

Just hit headshots

[quartz jungle]

100m feels a bit short for AR

especially in bbr, where the maps are so big

I think ~500m for ARs be better

[drowsy wren]

We prolly shouldnt make it like the IRL eqvivalents

Imo the "effective range" should vary between each weapon but each has a certain treshold they cannot go below nor above depending on the weapon class.
Something like this:
Smgs, pistols: 30-50m
Most PDWs: 60-90m
Carbines, ARs and maybe BRs: 120-150m
DMRs: 300-500m
Sniper: 750m (sniper should get damage dropoff tbh)

[sweet oar]

nah snipers with damage drop off is cringe

and while these categories are a good baseline, every gun should still have some uniqueness

[quartz jungle]

realistic or not, I just think a generally longer effective range would be nice to make bbr more unique over other fps games

take advantage of something that bbr has that other games cannot

[quartz jungle]

fr

from what I can tell right now, the technical superiority of bbr has done little to improve the gameplay for me

[wispy cedar]

DMRs dominate 100m-(however far their velocity allows)

[quartz jungle]

whats the point of larger maps if the max effective range of most regular players is ~200m

[drowsy wren]

Theres no point in a larger map if half of it is empty

[sweet oar]

imagine if vehicles were worth while

[quartz jungle]

fr

[sweet oar]

big maps suddenly have a reason

[quartz jungle]

vehicles definetly needd rework

atleast to make them more fun

[sweet oar]

ifvs still suffer from: wonky physics, no armor, 20rnd "mag", skinny legs, no accuracy, no bitches, poor damage, no ap rnds, no coaxial gun

[drowsy wren]

Agree, thats why i wrote that it should vary from weapon to weapon, but cant go over nor under a certain range depending on the class
For example, you can make the vector dropoff start at 35m, while PP19 dropoff can start at 45m
Its still in line with the 30-50m "effective range" of SMGs

[sweet oar]

that would buff the vector lol, current fall off is perfect for most guns

(goofy ahh dmr curve)

[drowsy wren]

Well it shouldnt have a harsh dropoff, kinda like DMRs rn, but a dropoff still
Its also pretty stupid that the damage increases over range

[quartz jungle]

I disagree

[sweet oar]

don't like the idea, takes away from long range sniping (+ bbr identity)
also that does make sense, bullet no longer over penetrates squishy hoomens

also no inertia and bandaging within 2s

[quartz jungle]

agree with this

[sweet oar]

(btw i'm not a sniper, i sometimes do it for shits and giggles [or play aggressively])

[quartz jungle]

me neither

[sweet oar]

anyways brick wall damage fall off is big dumb dumb

[quartz jungle]

I think linear dmg falloff is the right compromise

[sweet oar]

not needed

the fall off is fine

there's no reason to touch it

[drowsy wren]

Boolet loses velocity, boolet weaker the farther it goes

[quartz jungle]

realism is overrated

[drowsy wren]

Also it will make snipers be less inclined to do fuck all for the majority of the match

[sweet oar]

yes but boolet too fast for much dmg up "close", thus boolet more damage to squishy biped at range

[sweet oar]

i honestly don't think most snipers stay back for that dmg increase

[wispy cedar]

It lacks quite a bit of variety

[quartz jungle]

let the camping snipers be, some people just like being camping snipers

[sweet oar]

yeah and? if it was wildly different would that be good?

[sweet oar]

to add to this most snipers are actually in the main battle zone where they can't make use of the dmg increase, they just stay behind because they're snipers

[silk wyvern]

[quartz jungle]

if anything, I'd prefer snipers actually take advantage of the increase range of bbr

[wispy cedar]

I'm saying that a single category shouldn't have like 90% of their fall offs the same, there should be variation that is combined with more varying stats accross the board so they aren't just X with Y stat higher

[drowsy wren]

Like i suggested?

[sweet oar]

honestly, yes
either be close to me where you're in danger but it's easy to shoot people or be far away where you're either dealing with other snipers or trying to hit smth (difficult at higher ranges)

[sweet oar]

agree

[quartz jungle]

agree

+1 dmg, -10 firerate is dumb

[sweet oar]

imo there is enough variety rn though

[drowsy wren]

We need more

[sweet oar]

rpk type shit

[sweet oar]

with which guns? brs, ars or dmrs are the only ones i can think off where that would maybe make a difference

[drowsy wren]

I realised i forgot to add LSWs and LMGs here

Whoops

[wispy cedar]

A low-max range approach would work fine, but if you wanted to be a bit more experimenting then low-max range approach limits the design. Of course it is important that by choosing a certain weapon category you can expect something to be common

Like the F2000 is basically a longer range SMG in the AR category

Low damage, Relatively high firerate, but better fall-off

Also lacking in recoil

[sweet oar]

me when pp19

🗿

[wispy cedar]

PP19 is a piece of shit among SMGs

(For legal purposes this is a joke, dont sue me for lying)

[patent plover]

You will be hearing from my lawyers.

[lapis shale]

Too bad

[wispy cedar]

Sniper fall-off rewards being able to hit targets far away. I think its neat

[mellow ibex]

video of a man doing .2 damage https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBfKmEC9X0A